Forming Coptic Numbers in Unicode
- Message d'origine - De : "Daniel Yacob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Greetings, > > To compose coptic numerals under Unicode I've applied the appropriate > lowercase letters in the Greek-Coptic range with the elements from the > Combining Diacritical Marks: U+0304, U+0331 and U+0347. I had no basis > to choose these diacritical symbols upon other than they seemed to get > the job done visually. What are the "approved" symbols for composing > coptic numbers portably? May I ask what is your source for using these diacritics ? George Ifrah (in vol. 1, fig 17.48, uses only macrons (1 for 1..900, 2 for 100..900 000). George Ifrah gives as references A. Mallon, Grammaire copte, Beyrouth, 1956 and W.C. Till, Koptische Grammatik, Leipzig, 1955. I do not see when U+0331 would be used. See also http://www.geocities.com/remenkimi/lesson6.html (bars above). Same here http://mycopticchurch.com/coptic/lesson2.asp. I suppose a good article on this topic could be « Les chiffres coptes » by Messiha Hechmat in Le Monde Copte 24: 25-28, 1994. http://eocf.free.fr/revue_monde_copte.htm > Next question; what does one do for character codes to show values > over a billion? If there is no official sanctioned solution, it > occured to me that the diacritic symbols could simply accumulate > following the lowercase char for interchange and then be presented > graphically. Add additional macrons ? P. Andries - o - O - o - Unicode et ISO 10646 en français http://hapax.iquebec.com
Re: FW: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM"
Doug, Doug Ewell wrote: > Second, in trying to answer Cristina's question, some of us fell into > the trap once again of assuming that all text is fancy text, or can be > shoehorned into a fancy-text model. This is simply not true. Not every > text problem can be solved with markup, nor should it. A superscripted > MR is not the same as an unsuperscripted MR "except for presentation > formatting." At the least, we should ask before assuming that the text > in question is HTML or XML. Naahhh. Given that superscript-MR is not in Unicode, and that superscript is easily done in markup, and without any other context, it was a reasonable suggestion, and if it doesn't apply, the questioner can come back for more, as happened. Markup wasn't suggested as the only solution just a way to go. Asking, would have potentially delayed things. And now here we are with nothing better than the suggestion to use the registration symbol anyway... tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: FW: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM"
- Message d'origine - De : "Doug Ewell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Envoyé : 10 oct. 2002 23:34 > Michael Everson wrote: > > > There is no character encoded in Unicode which is a superscript > > capital M with capital R. I have never seen MR set in type in the > > same way that TM is, and indeed the abbreviation seems a bit doubtful > > to me. (Marca Registrada is usually used for 'registered (trade)ark' > > while "trademark" proper is 'marca de fábrica'.) For "Registered > > Trademark" you can use the circled R. MD (« marque déposée ») is quite often used in Canada to translate ® See SIGALMD in http://.technomedia.ca/website/Francais/SIGAL_desc.htm and its English translation http://.technomedia.ca/website/English/Architecture_sigal.htm See RailRoaderMD in http://www.cn.ca/productsservices/roadrailer/fr_KFRoadRailer.shtml and its English translation http://www.cn.ca/productsservices/roadrailer/en_KFRoadRailer.shtml I do not believe this is used in France. For TM, the recommended French abbreviation in Canada is MC (« marque de commerce » ). Ideally the MD and MC should be in small caps. http://www.granddictionnaire.com/_fs_global_01.htm?fonction=recherche&parten aire=Olf&id_langue=1&recherche=Trademark See http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/fr/amquablo/bafl/index.cfm and its English translation http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/flho/index.cfm P. Andries o - 0 -o Unicode en français http://hapax.iquebec.com
Re: FW: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM"
Michael Everson wrote: > There is no character encoded in Unicode which is a superscript > capital M with capital R. I have never seen MR set in type in the > same way that TM is, and indeed the abbreviation seems a bit doubtful > to me. (Marca Registrada is usually used for 'registered (trade)ark' > while "trademark" proper is 'marca de fábrica'.) For "Registered > Trademark" you can use the circled R. I would add two comments to this: First, I found two Web pages ([1], [2]) which said it is acceptable to use U+00AE REGISTERED SIGN (®) in place of MR. R can stand for "registrada" (es) as well as "registered" (en). Of course, whether that is acceptable to 3M is an entirely different matter. Superscript-MR apparently does not appear in any other, previously existing coded character set. If it did, it almost certainly would have been copied into Unicode. So Michael's argument that superscript-MR is not a widely used symbol is well taken. Second, in trying to answer Cristina's question, some of us fell into the trap once again of assuming that all text is fancy text, or can be shoehorned into a fancy-text model. This is simply not true. Not every text problem can be solved with markup, nor should it. A superscripted MR is not the same as an unsuperscripted MR "except for presentation formatting." At the least, we should ask before assuming that the text in question is HTML or XML. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California [1] http://www.franquiciasasesoria.com.mx/marca/marcas.asp [2] http://www.uach.cl/manualestilo/es_normleg-5.htm
Forming Coptic Numbers in Unicode
Greetings, To compose coptic numerals under Unicode I've applied the appropriate lowercase letters in the Greek-Coptic range with the elements from the Combining Diacritical Marks: U+0304, U+0331 and U+0347. I had no basis to choose these diacritical symbols upon other than they seemed to get the job done visually. What are the "approved" symbols for composing coptic numbers portably? Next question; what does one do for character codes to show values over a billion? If there is no official sanctioned solution, it occured to me that the diacritic symbols could simply accumulate following the lowercase char for interchange and then be presented graphically. Some recommendation added to the "The Unicode Standard" reference would be a good service here, sorry if I've missed it. thanx, /Daniel
Re: Capital Letter H with line below
- Message d'origine - De : "Kevin Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Envoyé : 10 oct. 2002 22:34 > LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW does not appear to exist in > Unicode 3.2, but the lowercase version is there (U+1E96). > > I have a map of Israel which has the transliterated names Hadera and Hefa > typeset with a line below their first letter, CAPITAL H. > > On the same map, I have yet to find a place name that uses the LOWERCASE > h with line below. > > Can anyone clear up this mystery? Historical reasons, I suppose, and the lack of need to add it : U+0048 U+0331 ? P. Andries - o - 0 - o - Unicode en français Nouveaux textes ! http://hapax.iquebec.com
Capital Letter H with line below
LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH LINE BELOW does not appear to exist in Unicode 3.2, but the lowercase version is there (U+1E96). I have a map of Israel which has the transliterated names Hadera and Hefa typeset with a line below their first letter, CAPITAL H. On the same map, I have yet to find a place name that uses the LOWERCASE h with line below. Can anyone clear up this mystery? Kevin Brown
Re: What good is our jargon? was: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 05:40 PM 10-10-02, Barry Caplan wrote: >i18n and l10n both meet all of these criteria, as do "lan" and "yahoo!" >and "google". In this respect, jargon can become a brand. In the case of yahoo! and google, these are brands that have become jargon, not the other way 'round. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those books that allow us to forget the most are accorded the status of a classic. - James Secord
What good is our jargon? was: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
This is a fair question. Why is jargon useful? It serves to define a group and a concept. the best jargon is memorable, short in name, easy to write, catchy in sound to the ear, and universally able to be written. It helps a lot if the term is not already overridden by another group. i18n and l10n both meet all of these criteria, as do "lan" and "yahoo!" and "google". In this respect, jargon can become a brand. What is really interesting to me is that the criteria we have as common lore about *why* abbreviations were needed (too long to write and type and too much of a tongue twister) apparently never occurred to other professions that also use "internationalization" and "localization" as key terms. I think it is the ability to separate what we mean from what others mean that is an important value of the jargon. Especially since it is not always clear in context which is which, and also especially since "globalization" has extremely negative connotations in the popular collective mind. Barry Caplan www.i18n.com At 05:12 PM 10/10/2002 -0700, Kenneth Whistler wrote: >> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! > >What I don't understand, since these a10n's are in such >widespread use among programmers and character encoders, >is why they don't use h9l, as in i12n, lan, and gbn? > >--K1n > >BTW, these aan's are not only o5e, they are also o4e, but >unfortunately, not o6e in use.
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! What I don't understand, since these a10n's are in such widespread use among programmers and character encoders, is why they don't use h9l, as in i12n, lan, and gbn? --K1n BTW, these aan's are not only o5e, they are also o4e, but unfortunately, not o6e in use.
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 07:34 PM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >Mark, >that's good to know. I never worked with Apple and so have no Apple doc >in my collection. > >However, the W0e below is a violation of the encoding and is a security >risk. I think the algorithm calls for the shortest string, so people >can't sneak in extra nulls- W0e W00e, etc. That last one would be W0(2)e. The first is optionally W0(1)e. The (deprecated) part of the pattern was designed by the same folks who add ~20% bandwidth (forget the exact number) to all mime email in order to get it through 7 bit smtp. Barry
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 07:34 PM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >Mark Davis wrote: >> >> We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have >> also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. >> >> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! Mark, Given the center of work in the i18n and l10n area that has emerged in Ireland (and other places) are you more partial to "internationali1ation" and "locali1ation"? :) Barry www.i18n.com
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Mark, that's good to know. I never worked with Apple and so have no Apple doc in my collection. However, the W0e below is a violation of the encoding and is a security risk. I think the algorithm calls for the shortest string, so people can't sneak in extra nulls- W0e W00e, etc. ;-) tex Mark Davis wrote: > > We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have > also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. > > W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! > > Mark > __ > http://www.macchiato.com > ⺠âEppur si muoveâ â > > - Original Message - > From: "Tex Texin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Barry Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Rick McGowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 13:14 > Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? > > > >From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was > > very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. > > It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific > > until 92/93. > > Then came i18n. > > then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... > > > > > > > > Barry Caplan wrote: > > > > > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > > > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is > the > > > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This > was > > > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. > Hiura > > > >suggests. > > > > > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am > trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), > seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was > very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. > > > > > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards > history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How > about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have > made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even > before being put into a standards doc > > > > > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > > > > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of > early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an > online archive he maintained I think. > > > > > > Barry > > > > -- > > - > > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > > > > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com > > Making e-Business Work Around the World > > - > > > > > > > > -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com ⺠âEppur si muoveâ â - Original Message - From: "Tex Texin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Barry Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Rick McGowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 13:14 Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? > >From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was > very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. > It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific > until 92/93. > Then came i18n. > then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... > > > > Barry Caplan wrote: > > > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the > > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was > > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura > > >suggests. > > > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. > > > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc > > > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he maintained I think. > > > > Barry > > -- > - > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com > Making e-Business Work Around the World > - > > > >
Re: is this a symbol of anything? CJK?
Thanks everyone! All set. "John H. Jenkins" wrote: > > On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:29 PM, Tex Texin wrote: > > > It looks close to several cjk characters, so I wasn't sure. > > > > I think it's a variant turtle ideograph. :-) > > (Nothing bad, so far as I know.) > > == > John H. Jenkins > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.tejat.net/ -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: is this a symbol of anything? CJK?
On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:29 PM, Tex Texin wrote: > It looks close to several cjk characters, so I wasn't sure. > I think it's a variant turtle ideograph. :-) (Nothing bad, so far as I know.) == John H. Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tejat.net/
is this a symbol of anything? CJK?
Hi, A friend was considering using the symbol at this link, but wants to make sure it doesn't have any meaning, or at least not an offensive or confusing meaning. It looks close to several cjk characters, so I wasn't sure. http://www.i18nguy.com/test/symbol.jpg Feel free to answer me privately, it doesn't really require list discussion. tia tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
>From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific until 92/93. Then came i18n. then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... Barry Caplan wrote: > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura > >suggests. > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard >to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate >the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him >how extensive the usage was by then. > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is >there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of >code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function >name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs >while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he >maintained I think. > > Barry -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 06:35 PM 10/10/2002 +0200, Marco Cimarosti wrote: >Radovan Garabik wrote: >> Google is your friend :-) >> "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, Here is a mention from 1989-12-02 11:24:11 PST only 3 days later: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=i18n+1988&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=454%40longway.TIC.COM&rnum=7 that says: > 5. Messaging > > The UniForum internationalization (I18N) folks brought forward a > proposal for a messaging facility to be included in P1003.1b. > The working group decided that it needs some more work but will > go into the next draft. > > [Editor's note -- The problem being solved here is that > internationalized applications store all user-visible strings in > external files, so that vendors and users can change the > >December 1989 Standards Update IEEE 1003.1: System services interface > > >- 5 - > > language of an application without recompiling it. The UniForum > I18N group is proposing a standard format for those files.] This indicates to me that UniForum might be a place to look for earlier references This is a very interesting thread from 1990: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk&rnum=20&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Di18n%2B1988%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D1990Aug30.115608.3729%2540tsa.co.uk%26rnum%3D20
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
How did you find these? I searched on i18n and sorted by date and could not go past the 1000th or so record Barry At 09:52 PM 10/10/2002 +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: >Well, the first occurence of "i18n" in Google's USENET archive seems >to be http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5570339%40hpfcdc.HP.COM >from Nov 30, 1989. > >"l10n" occurs first in >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk >from Aug 30, 1990. > >--tml
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura >suggests. I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he maintained I think. Barry
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: Markus Scherer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Barry Caplan wrote:
> > There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com
> Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we
> have three stories of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). The i18n.com
> version does not date the MIT meeting, does it?
It must be '89, when the X Window System Internationalization
team at MIT got formed for X11R5 release, as what the article
on i18n.com refers as, "a committee working on the standards for
xwindows". (By the way, "xwindows" is incorrect, no plural please ;-)
it should be written as X Window System :).
The statement I posted earlier,
hiura> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
hiura> already used I18N in '89 ;-).
was exactly refering to the use of "I18N" in the committee the article
on i18n.com referring. As some of you may remember ;-), I was a part
of this committee, so I know this committee was not the origin of the
term I18N.
We've created two mailing lists at MIT for the X Window System
Internationalization activity, called mltalk(multilingual talk) and
i18n-si (Internationalization sample implementation) back on those
days.
DEC was heavily involved in the development of X Window System
since very early phase, I can imagine there were some idea exchanges
on the naming, so it is possible that the rep. of DEC passed the
hint to this committee.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
Chair, OpenI18N/Open Internationalization Initiative, http://www.OpenI18N.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Markus Scherer scripsit: > Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we have three stories >of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). > The i18n.com version does not date the MIT meeting, does it? Well, independent or stimulus-diffused reinvention isn't ludicrous; in fact, I can testify that it actually happened. At one point, before I had firmly learned the acronym "i18n", I found myself remembering that there was an acronym of that style and having to count the letters myself, and at least once "l14n" instead of "l10n" got into a posting of mine, perhaps influenced by c14n = "canonicalization", for which the oldest Google Groups entry is only 1999. Did I invent "c14n" independently, or by stimulus diffusion, or by seeing it and forgetting it? I just can't say. -- Only do what only you can do. John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --Edsger W. Dijkstra, http://www.reutershealth.com deceased 6 August 2002 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Well, the first occurence of "i18n" in Google's USENET archive seems to be http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5570339%40hpfcdc.HP.COM from Nov 30, 1989. "l10n" occurs first in http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk from Aug 30, 1990. --tml
Re: [nelocsig] Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Bryan, thanks for pointing it out. Actually, the story says it was created during an x-windows standards committee meeting that was occuring at MIT. So I am not sure the association should be with MIT as much as x-windows standards, assuming the person who told Barry is correct that this is the first instance, to begin with. However, I am glad that they weren't meeting at a Howard Johnsons, or we would be crediting HoJos with inventing the term. ;-) Or maybe we would be using the term "InNa" instead? tex Hi Tex, According to an article I read by Barry Caplan, these acronyms come from MIT. Would anyone like to comment on this version? http://www.i18n.com/article.pl?sid=02/03/02/0345215&mode=thread&threshold= Cheers, Bryan Do Director Interloc Global Solutions, Inc. -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: FW: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM"
At 10:17 -0700 2002-10-10, Magda Danish (Unicode) wrote: > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:46 AM > > To: Tex Texin > > Subject: Re: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM" > > > > I cannot use html code. People in 3M St. Paul that are loading our >pages asked me the following: >> >> "If you can send me the UTF-8 characters for MR, I can create what we >call a scrublet that will fix this problem." Cristina, There is no character encoded in Unicode which is a superscript capital M with capital R. I have never seen MR set in type in the same way that TM is, and indeed the abbreviation seems a bit doubtful to me. (Marca Registrada is usually used for 'registered (trade)ark' while "trademark" proper is 'marca de fábrica'.) For "Registered Trademark" you can use the circled R. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com 48B Gleann na Carraige; Cill Fhionntain; Baile Átha Cliath 13; Éire Telephone +353 86 807 9169 * * Fax +353 1 832 2189 (by arrangement)
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Barry Caplan wrote: > There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we have three stories of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). The i18n.com version does not date the MIT meeting, does it? markus
FW: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM"
Can someone help me reply to this inquiry. Thanks, Magda. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:46 AM > To: Tex Texin > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Magda Danish (Unicode) > Subject: Re: "MR" in superscript - Spanish translation for "TM" > > Hi Tex. > > I cannot use html code. People in 3M St. Paul that are loading our pages asked me the following: > > "If you can send me the UTF-8 characters for MR, I can create what we call a scrublet that will fix this problem." > > Thank you, > Cristina > >- > Cristina, > > In html, you can use the tag to make the enclosed text > superscript: > > ...superscript... > > MR > > Alternatively, you can use CSS styles to make text superscript: > MR > (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align) tex "Magda Danish (Unicode)" wrote: > > > -Original Message- > > Date/Time:Wed Oct 9 17:27:43 EDT 2002 > > Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Report Type: Other Question, Problem, or Feedback > > > > Hi, I need to have in UTF-8 code or Unicode of the following > > word "MR" but in superscript way, in order to use it when in > > our Web Site we are speaking of a Trademark(TM). MR is use > > the translation in Spanish for TM. > > Could you please assist me? > > Thanks, > > > > > > Cristina > > Digitization Coordinator > > 3M Chile > > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > (End of Report) > > > > -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
I can confirm Hiura-san's version. I heard it from Jurgen Bettels, who've I've known
since '84 and worked with Scherpenhuizen in the Geneva office at the time.
Scherpenhuizen managed the ISO work.
In the days when bytes were precious, VMS had a character username limit. Some
anonymous system administrator shortened Scherpenhuizen's username to S12N to fit. It
may have been especially funny because Scherpenhuizen was an unusually large man.
Whatever, it became an office joke for long words. Internationalization had just
become a hot topic in ISO then, so it was applied, and stuck.
I suspect Eamon MacDermott may have been the person who spread the term from DEC to
the rest of the world.
John
-Original Message-
From: Tex Texin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:55 AM
To: Hideki Hiura
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Thanks Hideki!
I went thru my i18n books to scan for mentions. The earliest mention I could find for
i18n (the abbreviation) was 1992, in "Soft Landing in Japan". It seems like 1993 some
books mention it, and 94 and thereafter it is consistently mentioned.
The term "internationalization" seems vendor oriented. IBM preferred "enabling" (and
NLS). I have some early DEC books (87 or so), and the abbreviation wasn't used.
The lack of use in books before 92 could be a choice by the authors that the term was
jargon or slang and wasn't relevant to explaining the concepts.
It seems to have passed from DEC to Unix usage, if we believe the reports I am getting.
I'll make a web page for this, after I get a few more comments. tex
Hideki Hiura wrote:
>
> > From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sometime
> > around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) was
> > writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n
> > and a bit later (obviously after counting the letters in between)
> > used I18N. Sandra might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they
> > might be able to confirm my recollection.
>
> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have already
> used I18N in '89 ;-).
>
> The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at DEC,
> as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
>
> By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
> team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
>
> Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
> later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
> Internationalization, in '88.
>
> --
> hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
> Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
> Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
> Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
--
-
Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com
Making e-Business Work Around the World
-
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Radovan Garabik wrote: > Google is your friend :-) > "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, Cute, I didn't imagine Google archives went all that way back! BTW, the first mention of Unicode on Usenet predates it by eight days: Subject: Re: ASCII for national characters Newsgroups: comp.std.internat From: Donn Terry Date: 1989-11-22 10:43:42 PST (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=932%40hpfcdc.HP.COM) | [...] | UNICODE: this isn't a standard but is proposed. Unifies the Han | character sets in the same way as the Latin ones (but with | obviously a much bigger payback because of the size). Fixed | length 16 bits. This fixes the length in characters vs. length | in bytes issue. (The issue of length in display space is | inherently harder because characters do vary in width in natural | usage in many phonetic alphabets, as well as in the ideographic | ones. See Arabic and Hindi where the constant-width usage is | considered "pretty awful", albeit readable. (Even in English, | good typesetting is not constant width.)) | [...] The same message also says something about a competing standard: | [...] | ISO10646: 32-bit everything code. Treats the various Han character sets | as distinct character sets for each national usage, but unifies the | Latin characters into a single set. Variable length coding possible | to reduce space. Can degenerate to (something close to) 8859. | [...] _ Marco
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com Barry Caplan Publisher, www.i18n.com At 02:02 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >I was asked about the origin of these acronyms. Does anyone know who >created these or where they were first used? >tex >-- >- >Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > >XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com >Making e-Business Work Around the World >-
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Thanks Hideki!
I went thru my i18n books to scan for mentions. The earliest mention I
could find for i18n (the abbreviation) was 1992, in "Soft Landing in
Japan".
It seems like 1993 some books mention it, and 94 and thereafter it is
consistently mentioned.
The term "internationalization" seems vendor oriented. IBM preferred
"enabling" (and NLS).
I have some early DEC books (87 or so), and the abbreviation wasn't
used.
The lack of use in books before 92 could be a choice by the authors that
the term was jargon or slang and wasn't relevant to explaining the
concepts.
It seems to have passed from DEC to Unix usage, if we believe the
reports I am getting.
I'll make a web page for this, after I get a few more comments.
tex
Hideki Hiura wrote:
>
> > From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit
> > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my
> > recollection.
>
> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
> already used I18N in '89 ;-).
>
> The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
> DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
>
> By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
> team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
>
> Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
> later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
> Internationalization, in '88.
>
> --
> hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
> Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
> Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
> Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
--
-
Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com
Making e-Business Work Around the World
-
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura suggests. Rick - > From upheisei!attunix!sun!glennw Thu Oct 5 15:59:05 EDT 1989 > Date: Thu, 5 Oct 89 12:46:22 PDT > From: sun!glennw (Glenn P. Wright) > To: sun!unicode > Subject: Next Unicode meeting > > Time: > > Monday Oct 9th. 4pm > > Place: > Sun Microsystems, Building 5, 2550 Garcia Avenue > > Agenda: > > Discussion of Current X3L2 proposal status > Discussion on future Unicode committee organisation > Joe will have updates on the Unicode chart > (depending on the As pitching rate) > Liason reports - > X/Open, > Joint i18n meeting, > Ad Hoc meeting in Peking (oops). > > Other (could be lots of this) > > > How to get there >
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
In spite of Arnold's anecdote, I think that I18n was in use long before 1991. I first started using it myself in perhaps 1987, having picked it up from colleagues at Digital Equipment Corporation (remember *them*?); I have no idea where they got the term, though. However, I first encountered L10n quite some years later, possibly as recently as 1994 or 1995, but I don't recall it as clearly. Jim At 07:14 AM 2002-10-10 -0400 Thursday, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: >Tex, > >Here is my recollection: > >Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) >was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out >Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit >later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra >might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my >recollection. > >L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used >it first. Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL) Phone: +1.801.942.0144 Oracle CorporationOracle Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1930 Viscounti Drive Standards email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sandy, UT 84093-1063 Personal email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] USAFax : +1.801.942.3345 = Facts are facts. However, any opinions expressed are the opinions = = only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody = = else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand. =
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 07:14:57AM -0400, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: > Tex, > > Here is my recollection: > > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my > recollection. I did not attend that meeting. Kind regards keld
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 07:14:57AM -0400, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: > Tex, > > Here is my recollection: > > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my > recollection. Google is your friend :-) "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, > > L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used > it first. l10n is first mentioned on 30 august 1990. The posting also mentions that the abbreviation is not widely used. -- --- | Radovan Garabík http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk | --- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit
> later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my
> recollection.
The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
already used I18N in '89 ;-).
The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
Internationalization, in '88.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Hideki,
You are most likely right that I18N was used much earlier than I was able to
witness. I entered the standards game in 1989 (X3/L2) and started with the
POSIX activity sometime in 1991.
Thanks for remembering.
Arnold
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Winkler, Arnold F
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a
bit
> later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm
my
> recollection.
The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
already used I18N in '89 ;-).
The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
Internationalization, in '88.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative,
http://www.li18nux.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,
http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX:
509-693-8356
FW: Indic language fonts releasde under GPL by Akruti
For everybody's info. The fonts are designed for "hack encoding", not for Unicode. But the glyphs look nice, and they are free and GPL-licensed! Hopefully, some good soul would add all the OpenType stuff in them, sooner or later. _ Marco -Original Message- Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:34:51 - From: "Baiju M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Indic language fonts releasde under GPL by Akruti Hi all, Cyberscape multimedia limited has released Indic language TrueType Fonts (TTF) under GNU General Public License on 2nd October. The fonts can be downloaded from http://www.akruti.com/freedom/ -- Baiju M
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Tex, Here is my recollection: Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my recollection. L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used it first. Regards Arnold -Original Message- From: Tex Texin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:02 AM To: NE Localization SIG; Unicoders Subject: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? I was asked about the origin of these acronyms. Does anyone know who created these or where they were first used? tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
RE: Unicode Word Processing in Mac OS
At 7:22 pm -0400 2/10/02, David J. Perry wrote: >According to the Nisus web site, they are working on a Cocoa version of >Writer but there is no timetable for its release. So the wait >continues. Just got news of a very interesting development At 5:35 am + 10/10/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Date: 10 Oct 2002 05:35:20 - >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: "composer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >List: composer >Subject: Big Changes at Okito Software > >I am writing today to tell you of some very exciting news regarding >Okito Composer. Today we are announcing that Nisus Software has >acquired Okito Software and will be integrating Okito Composer into >their forthcoming Nisus Writer for Mac OS X. I will be joining >their team to help in this effort to bring the award-winning word >processor to Mac OS X along with many new innovations and great new >features.
