Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

--- Vladimir Nesov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Say, each functional concept (a bit in total amount of memory) is > represented by R synapses and M neurons. When certain pattern of concepts is > observed, it creates a repeatable sequence of events. Say, pattern is one > concept being followed by an

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

Edward, I'm sorry for obscurity of my message. I tried to omit some of the background that seemed irrelevant, but probably it isn't. I'll try to describe my point more systematically. I assume the following low-level model of brain operation (it's more about terminology needed to communicate intu

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

t is better than you (faster, more info, etc.). - Original Message - From: "Mike Tintner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses Vlad et al, Slightly O/T - while you guys are arguing abou

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

Edward, Your reply raised very interesting issues which I'll have to think about some more. I'll also need to read Valiant's paper to get a better idea of realistic properties of the brain regarding this kind of process. So, I'll answer in more detailed way when I'm ready. For now, I have to admi

RE: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

nt: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:25 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses Edward, Your reply raised very interesting issues which I'll have to think about some more. I'll also need to read Valiant's paper to get a better idea of realistic

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

On 10/21/07, Edward W. Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Vladimir, > > Yes, the deleted point "FIVE" mentioned that I had assumed (perhaps > incorrectly) that Valiant was looking for enough interconnect to do > traditinal Hebbian learning, which as normally defined would require > synapses fro

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

On 10/20/07, Matt Mahoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [most of post snipped and agreed with] > Without a number, you could argue that the vast majority of synapses store > subconscious (non recallable) memories. But I can still argue otherwise. > Humans are not significantly superior to other larg

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

RW:As I understand it, this is not the case.Tests of throwing accuracy have put chimpanzees' typical error in feet in the same ballpark as humans' typical error in inches. (Some of this is mechanical - the arrangement of bones and muscles in the human arm trades off some strength for accuracy -

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

Another way of putting my question/ point is that a picture (or map) of your face is surely a more efficient, informational way to store your face than any set of symbols - especially if a doctor wants to do plastic surgery on it, or someone wants to use it for any design purpose whatsoever?

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

Another way of putting my question/ point is that a picture (or map) of your face is surely a more efficient, informational way to store your face than any set of symbols - especially if a doctor wants to do plastic surgery on it, or someone wants to use it for any design purpose whatsoever?

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

On 10/20/07, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Images are *not* an efficient way to store data. Unless they are > three-dimensional images, they lack data. Normally, they include a lot of > unnecessary or redundant data. It is very, very rare that a computer stores > any but the smallest i

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

FWIW: A few years (decades?) ago some researchers took PET scans of people who were imagining a rectangle rotating (in 3-space, as I remember). They naturally didn't get much detail, but what they got was consistent with people applying a rotation algorithm within the visual cortex. This mat

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

;[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S. FWIW: A few years (decades?) ago some researchers took PET scans of people who were imagining a rectangle rotating (in 3-space, as I remember). They naturally d

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

MW: Images are *not* an efficient way to store data. Unless they are three-dimensional images, they lack data. Normally, they include a lot of unnecessary or redundant data. It is very, very rare that a computer stores any but the smallest image without compressing it. And remember, an im

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

CH: Anyway there's low resolution, possibly unconfirmed, evidence that when we visualize images, we generate a cell activation pattern within the visual cortex that has an activation boundary approximating in shape the object being visualized. (This doesn't say anything about how the information

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

Some semi-organized responses to points raised in this thread... 1) About spatial maps... It seems to be the case that the brain uses spatial maps a lot, which abstract considerably from the "territory" they represent Similarly in Novamente we have a spatial map data structure which has an adjus

RE: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

efficiencies of mathematics we often don't stop to appreciate. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Benjamin Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:49 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S. Some semi-orga

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

On 10/21/07, Edward W. Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ben, > > > > Good Post > > > > I my mind the ability to map each of N things into a model of a space is a > very valuable thing. It lets us represent all of the N^2 spatial > relationships between those N things based on just N mappings

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

http://www.mail-archive.com/agi@v2.listbox.com/msg08026.html is where Ben Goertzel wrote stimuli evoking AGI list response. > Some semi-organized responses to points raised in this thread... > [...] > Furthermore, it seems to be the case that > the brain stores a lot of detail about some > thing

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

Benjamin, It's interesting that you mentioned this right now. My discussion with Edward in parallel thread effectively led to this issue. Basically, it's useful to be able to find regularities between arbitrary pair of concepts (say, A and B) that system supports (as kind of domain-independence).

RE: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

the notion that the information in the human brain contained only 10^9 bits was bombastic enough. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Vladimir Nesov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:34 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

Ben:Furthermore, it seems to be the case that the brain stores a lot of detail about some things that it sees -- and much less about others. For instance, it's famous that when observing a visual scene, a person can generally remember only around 7 visual facts about it. Trained observers can

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

On 10/21/07, Edward W. Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Vladimir, > > > > Yes, if a concept is defined by its associations, and if a significant > subset of them somewhat distinguish a concept, it would seem only natural > that links between associations of nodes A and node could help the two

RE: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

uman memory and number of synapses.. P.S. On 10/21/07, Edward W. Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Vladimir, Yes, if a concept is defined by its associations, and if a significant subset of them somewhat distinguish a concept, it would seem only natural that links between associations

Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

> > Edward W. Porter > Porter & Associates > 24 String Bridge S12 > Exeter, NH 03833 > (617) 494-1722 > Fax (617) 494-1822 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > *From:* Vladimir Nesov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *Sent:* Sunday, October 21, 200

RE: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S.

r 21, 2007 8:01 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses.. P.S. Edward, Did you read Izhikevich's papers (specifically, [1])? They explore the model of polychronization, where cell assemblies are formed in different ways depending on temporal shifts of f

Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Edward W. Porter wrote: [snip] There is a very interest paper at http://www.icsuci.edu/~granger/RHGenginesJ1s.pdf that I have referred to before on this list that states the cortico-thalmic feedback loop functions to serialize the brain's

Images aren't best WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

from the database eliminates your original query). - Original Message - From: "Mike Tintner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses MW:> Take your own example of "an outli

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Loosemore wrote: > > Edward > > If I were you, I would not get too excited about this paper, nor others > of this sort (see, e.g. Granger's other general brain-engineering paper > at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rhg/pubs/RHGai50.pdf). > > This kind of research comes pretty close to something that de

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

is valuable in it. If so, you may be denying yourself valuable insights. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Richard Loosemore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:12 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synap

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Benjamin Goertzel wrote: Loosemore wrote: Edward If I were you, I would not get too excited about this paper, nor others of this sort (see, e.g. Granger's other general brain-engineering paper at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rhg/pubs/RHGai50.pdf). This kind of research come

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

> > > The questions you ask are not worth asking, because you cannot do > anything with a 'theory' (Granger's) that consists of a bunch of vague > assertions about various outdated, broken cognitive ideas, asserted > without justification. > > > Richard Loosemore > Richard, you haven't convinced

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

21, 2007 3:05 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Loosemore wrote: Edward If I were you, I would not get too excited about this paper, nor others of this sort (see, e.g. Granger's other general b

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Richard Loosemore [_mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:12 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: [snip] There is a very interest paper

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Edward W. Porter wrote: As Ben suggests, clearly Granger’s title claims to much. At best the article suggests what may be some important aspects of the computational architecture of the human brain, not anything approaching a complete instruction set. But as I implied in my last post to Rich

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Oct 21, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Richard Loosemore wrote: It took me at least five years of struggle to get to the point where I could start to have the confidence to call a spade a spade It still looks like a shovel to me. Cheers, J. Andrew Rogers - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

-1822 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Loosemore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:37 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: > As Ben suggests,

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

> > As I said above, it leaves many things unsaid and unclear. For example, > does it activate all or multiple nodes in a cluster together or not? Does > it always activate the most general cluster covering a given pattern, or > does it use some measure of how well a cluster fits input to select

FW: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Richard, You might be interested to know how much attention one of your articles has gotten in the <mailto:agi@v2.listbox.com> agi@v2.listbox.com mailing list under the RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses thread, which has been dedicated to it. Belo

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

ious level activation. Edward W. Porter Porter & Associates 24 String Bridge S12 Exeter, NH 03833 (617) 494-1722 Fax (617) 494-1822 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Benjamin Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 1:40 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: R

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

7 2:00 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Cc: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: FW: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Richard, You might be interested to know how much attention one of your articles has gotten in the <mailto:agi@v2.listbox.com> agi@v2.listbox.com mailin

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Edward W. Porter wrote: Dear Readers of the RE: Bogus Neuroscience Thread, Because I am the one responsible for bringing to the attention of this list the Granger article (“Engines of the brain: The computational instruction set of human cognition”, by Richard Granger) that has caused the rec

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 02:54:53 pm, Richard Loosemore wrote: > the question is how it can represent multiple > copies of a concept that occur in a situation without getting confused > about which is which. If the appearance of one chair in a scene causes > the [chair] neuron (or neurons, i

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On 10/22/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Attention -- fovea -- saccade -- serial -- chunking -- frame. > > Those higher functions have to be there anyway. Is there any evidence that we > can recognize multiple primitives simultaneously? Yes. Speed-reading in particular, deliber

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Richard, Structure, instances and temporary relations can be represented by uniform elements through activation set. I'm sure it's addressed in theory of Hebbian learning somewhere, and I'd be grateful if someone could provide a reference for description of this process. I tried to describe it (ad

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

pletely. -Original Message- From: Richard Loosemore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:55 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: > Dear Readers of the RE: Bogus Neuroscie

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 03:35:33 pm, Russell Wallace wrote: > On 10/22/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Attention -- fovea -- saccade -- serial -- chunking -- frame. > > > > Those higher functions have to be there anyway. Is there any evidence that we > > can recognize multi

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On 10/22/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't buy that there is parallel recognition going on. But that's not what the evidence you cited supports. The evidence you cited weighs against the _comprehension_ claims of speed-reading practitioners. That's fine, but I'm not defe

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 06:02:17 pm, Russell Wallace wrote: > On 10/22/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't buy that there is parallel recognition going on. > > But that's not what the evidence you cited supports. > > The evidence you cited weighs against the _comprehen

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

J Storrs Hall, PhD wrote: On Monday 22 October 2007 02:54:53 pm, Richard Loosemore wrote: the question is how it can represent multiple copies of a concept that occur in a situation without getting confused about which is which. If the appearance of one chair in a scene causes the [chair] n

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: Dear Readers of the RE: Bogus Neuroscience Thread, Because I am the one responsible for bringing to the attention of this list the Granger article (“Engines of the brai

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On 10/23/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Still don't buy it. What the article amounts to is that "speed-reading" is > fake. No kind of recognition beyond skimming (e.g. just ignoring a > substantial proportion of the text) is called for to explain the observed > performance. An

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 08:01:55 pm, Richard Loosemore wrote: > Did you ever try to parse a sentence with more than one noun in it? > > Well, all right: but please be assured that the rest of us do in fact > do that. "Why make insulting personal remarkss instead of explaining your reasoning?

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 08:48:20 pm, Russell Wallace wrote: > On 10/23/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Still don't buy it. What the article amounts to is that "speed-reading" is > > fake. No kind of recognition beyond skimming (e.g. just ignoring a > > substantial proportion

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On Monday 22 October 2007 09:33:24 pm, Edward W. Porter wrote: > Richard, ... > Are you capable of understanding how that might be considered insulting? I think in all seriousness that he literally cannot understand. Richard's emotional interaction is very similar to that of some autistic people

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On 10/23/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Still don't buy it. Saccades are normally well below the conscious level, and > a vast majority of what goes on cognitively is not available to > introspection. Any good reader gets to the point where the sentence meanings, > not the word

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

You can DO them consciously but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can intentionally become conscious of the ones you are doing unconsciously. Try cutting a hole in a piece of paper and moving it smoothly across another page that has text on it. When your eye tracks the smoothly moving page,

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

On 10/23/07, J Storrs Hall, PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You can DO them consciously but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can > intentionally become conscious of the ones you are doing unconsciously. One every few seconds happens involuntarily, when I try to not let any through at all; b

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

ist. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Richard Loosemore [_mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:21 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: Richard, I will only r

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:48 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: > Richard, > > I am aware of the type-token distinction, and I think the distinction > between t

Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Edward W. Porter wrote: Richard, Let's just bury the hatchet. I am too busy right now to spend any more time on this. No hatchets need to be buried. This is not a contest. It is a shame that you leave the discussion without making any response to my detailed effort to clear up the confusio

RE: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

bject: Re: Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses] Edward W. Porter wrote: > Richard, > > Let's just bury the hatchet. I am too busy right now to spend any > more time on this. No hatchets need to be buried. This is not a contest. It is a sh

Re: Images aren't best WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses

query). - Original Message - From: "Mike Tintner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses MW:> Take your own example of "an outline map" -- *none* of the current high-en

Re: Bogus Threat Title[ WAS Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

> > > It took me at least five years of struggle to get to the point where I > could start to have the confidence to call a spade a spade, and dismiss > stuff that looked like rubbish. > > Now, you say "we have to forgive academics" for doing this? The hell we > do. > > If I see garbage being pedd

Re: Bogus Threat Title[ WAS Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

Benjamin Goertzel wrote: It took me at least five years of struggle to get to the point where I could start to have the confidence to call a spade a spade, and dismiss stuff that looked like rubbish. Now, you say "we have to forgive academics" for doing this? The hell we do

Re: Bogus Threat Title[ WAS Bogus Neuroscience [WAS Re: [agi] Human memory and number of synapses]

> > And you are also not above making patronizing remarks in which you > implicitly refer to someone as behaving in a "simian" -- i.e. > monkey-like manner. Hey, I'm a monkey too -- and I'm pretty tired of being one. Let's bring on the Singularity already!!! > > If you read the paper I just wr