On 12/18/2012 4:35 AM, bearophile wrote:
in general the
naming choice of D is better than Rust.
A red letter day for D! Bearophile says that D does something better than some
other language!
:-)
Marcel:
Rust designers seems to love really short keywords, this is in
my opinion a bit silly. On the other hand in D you have
keywords like "immutable" that are rather long to type. So I
prefer a mid way between those two.
They aren't silly, they're consistent. We have int, char, auto,
they
On Tuesday, 18 December 2012 at 07:36:26 UTC, Marcel wrote:
Rust designers seems to love really short keywords, this is in
my opinion a bit silly. On the other hand in D you have
keywords like "immutable" that are rather long to type. So I
prefer a mid way between those two.
They aren't silly
Rust designers seems to love really short keywords, this is in
my opinion a bit silly. On the other hand in D you have
keywords like "immutable" that are rather long to type. So I
prefer a mid way between those two.
They aren't silly, they're consistent. We have int, char, auto,
they have fn,
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 13:49:50 UTC, bearophile wrote:
So I've taken another look at the Rust tutorial:
http://dl.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial.html
Does it handle angle brackets well?
Am Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:39:33 +0200
schrieb "SomeDude" :
> On Friday, 13 July 2012 at 14:58:57 UTC, bearophile wrote:
> > A blog post about one of the Rust pointers, the "borrowed" ones:
> >
> > http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2012/07/10/borrowed-pointer-tutorial/
> >
> > Bye,
> > bear
On 07/17/2012 07:25 PM, bearophile wrote:
Walter Bright:
auto code() { return cast(ushort)42; }
works fine. There isn't really a lack here, just some more typing. I
just don't see the case coming up hardly at all.
I have just found an example (reduced code):
import std.typecons;
void main(
On Friday, 13 July 2012 at 14:58:57 UTC, bearophile wrote:
A blog post about one of the Rust pointers, the "borrowed" ones:
http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2012/07/10/borrowed-pointer-tutorial/
Bye,
bearophile
Rust is a much more interesting language than Go. At least they
are t
Walter Bright:
auto code() { return cast(ushort)42; }
works fine. There isn't really a lack here, just some more
typing. I just don't see the case coming up hardly at all.
I have just found an example (reduced code):
import std.typecons;
void main() {
alias Tuple!(ubyte[]) Tu;
a
On 7/13/2012 3:21 AM, Marco Leise wrote:
The cases of 'auto' return or assignment can be worked around by not using
auto and may be artificial. Yet it feels like auto is partially broken,
because I cannot directly write down 8- and 16-bit integer literals like so:
auto code(...) { if (...) retur
A blog post about one of the Rust pointers, the "borrowed" ones:
http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2012/07/10/borrowed-pointer-tutorial/
Bye,
bearophile
Am Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:30:58 -0700
schrieb Walter Bright :
> On 7/12/2012 2:42 AM, Marco Leise wrote:
> > I understand that some of the examples have better alternatives. What I
> > don't
> > understand is why you term this as increased language complexity. This is
> > not
> > one of the "why no
Am Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:31:31 +0900
schrieb Geoffrey Biggs :
> Personally, I think that if I need to care about the data size/maximum
> range of a value, I should be using a fixed-size data type rather than
> specifying it in the value. The language typically supports me in
> doing so without the n
On 12 July 2012 18:42, Marco Leise wrote:
> Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:58:07 +0200
> schrieb "bearophile" :
>
>> > => a = 5s;
>>
>> I read that as "5 seconds" :-(
>
> Me too, but then again "5l" could be read as 5 liters. I guess that is why
> the move is towards uppercase suffixes. 5S and 5L are not
On 7/12/2012 2:42 AM, Marco Leise wrote:
I understand that some of the examples have better alternatives. What I don't
understand is why you term this as increased language complexity. This is not
one of the "why not add" kind of requests. From my point of view the
complexity is already there thr
Am Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:08:07 +0200
schrieb Marco Leise :
> Am Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:42:13 +0200
> schrieb Marco Leise :
>
> > Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:58:07 +0200
> > schrieb "bearophile" :
> >
> > > > => a = 5s;
> > >
> > > I read that as "5 seconds" :-(
> >
> > Me too, but then again "5l" could
Am Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:22:59 -0400
schrieb Jeff Nowakowski :
> On 07/11/2012 03:50 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> > On 7/11/2012 11:54 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
> >> That reminds me, I was so happy the first two times I got an undefined
> >> symbol
> >> error in D. The compiler said: "Did you mean '
On 07/11/2012 03:50 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 7/11/2012 11:54 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
That reminds me, I was so happy the first two times I got an undefined
symbol
error in D. The compiler said: "Did you mean ''?" LOL,
don't tell me how it works... it's magic, right? I love a good error
mes
Am Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:42:13 +0200
schrieb Marco Leise :
> Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:58:07 +0200
> schrieb "bearophile" :
>
> > > => a = 5s;
> >
> > I read that as "5 seconds" :-(
>
> Me too, but then again "5l" could be read as 5 liters. I guess that is why
> the move is towards uppercase suffix
Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:58:07 +0200
schrieb "bearophile" :
> > => a = 5s;
>
> I read that as "5 seconds" :-(
Me too, but then again "5l" could be read as 5 liters. I guess that is why the
move is towards uppercase suffixes. 5S and 5L are not likely misread.
> I don't think your examples justify
"David Piepgrass" wrote in message
news:jdyhfsxgucfglqgaj...@forum.dlang.org...
Rust has type classes from Haskell (with some simplifications for higher
kinds), uniqueness typing, and typestates.
As nice as kinds, typestates, typeclasses and several pointer types may be,
I was in the Rust mai
On 07/11/2012 02:00 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
I am particularly a fan of structural typing. I don't know if Rust uses
it but Opa and other functional languages often do. You see, there's a
problem that pops up in .NET all the time, and probably the same problem
exists in D.
Any time two librar
On 11/07/2012 21:50, Walter Bright wrote:
On 7/11/2012 11:54 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
That reminds me, I was so happy the first two times I got an undefined
symbol
error in D. The compiler said: "Did you mean ''?" LOL,
don't tell me how it works... it's magic, right? I love a good error
messag
Marco Leise:
Then again it also has 'begin' and 'end' instead of { and }.
Masochists...
Between APL/Ursala and Ada extremes there is a wide happy middle,
D, Pascal and probably Rust too are all usable.
The 'begin' and 'end' of Pascal are not bad, they are short
lowercase words written with
On 07/11/12 20:32, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 7/11/2012 9:45 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
>> I still type "reutrn" and "retrun" all the damn time!
>
> I keep finding myself typing "redrum" !
Good one :D
Marco Leise:
Phobos:
(boxer.d):
assert (box(1) == box(cast(byte)1));
=> assert (box(1) == box(1b));
(algorithm.d):
assert(b == [ cast(ubyte) 0, cast(ubyte)2, cast(ubyte)1,
cast(ubyte)6, cast(ubyte)5], text(b));
=> assert(b == [ 0ub, 2ub, 1ub, 6ub, 5ub], text(b));
Here b is an u
On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 at 18:53:31 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:
Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:09:26 +0200
schrieb Timon Gehr :
On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
> ...
> These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well
> as "fn", but
> while many languages use "fun", requiring "f
Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:24:34 +0200
schrieb "bearophile" :
> Marco Leise:
>
> > Yes, this is the single most important Rust feature to me when
> > typing. I've just had too many cases of mass-casts to ubyte or
> > short where a suffix to the literal would only have cost one or
> > two letters.
On 7/11/2012 11:54 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
That reminds me, I was so happy the first two times I got an undefined symbol
error in D. The compiler said: "Did you mean ''?" LOL,
don't tell me how it works... it's magic, right? I love a good error message.
I added a spelling checker to the unde
Am Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:09:26 +0200
schrieb Timon Gehr :
> On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
> > ...
> > These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well as "fn", but
> > while many languages use "fun", requiring "function" for all functions
> > is almost unheard of (at least
bool test(int x) { return x & 2 > 0; }
gives:
foo.d(1): Error: 2 > 0 must be parenthesized when next to
operator &
That reminds me, I was so happy the first two times I got an
undefined symbol error in D. The compiler said: "Did you mean
''?" LOL, don't tell me how it works...
it's mag
Oh, I can't tell you what a pet peeve PITA the C precedence
is. Ugh! I know it's
against D philosophy to change the precedence w.r.t. C, but
how about a
compromise: give a warning or error for "x&2 > 0", with error
message: "add
parenthesis around x&2 to clarify your intention."
bool test(i
On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 at 18:31:23 UTC, David Piepgrass wrote:
The trouble with segmented stacks are:
1. they have a significant runtime penalty
Why?
Extra instructions generated for each function.
Every function? Why?
Looks like I misunderstood what "Segmented stacks" are. From an
LLV
On 7/11/2012 9:45 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
I still type "reutrn" and "retrun" all the damn time!
I keep finding myself typing "redrum" !
On 7/11/2012 11:00 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
the logical bitwise operators have higher precedence. In C, x & 2 > 0 comes
out as x & (2 > 0), in Rust, it means (x & 2) > 0, which is more likely to be
what you expect (unless you are a C veteran).
Oh, I can't tell you what a pet peeve PITA the C p
The trouble with segmented stacks are:
1. they have a significant runtime penalty
Why?
Extra instructions generated for each function.
Every function? Why?
2. interfacing to C code becomes problematic
Isn't it possible to auto-commit new pages when C code needs
it?
...
There's no way to pr
On 7/11/2012 9:57 AM, David Piepgrass wrote:
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 19:28:11 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
On 7/8/2012 6:49 AM, bearophile wrote:
I think in Go the function stack is segmented and growable as in Go. This saves
RAM if you need a small stack, and avoids stack overflows where lot of
On 07/11/2012 08:00 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
...
Oh, I can't tell you what a pet peeve PITA the C precedence is. Ugh! I
know it's against D philosophy to change the precedence w.r.t. C, but
how about a compromise: give a warning or error for "x&2 > 0", with
error message: "add parenthesis aroun
Marco Leise:
Yes, this is the single most important Rust feature to me when
typing. I've just had too many cases of mass-casts to ubyte or
short where a suffix to the literal would only have cost one or
two letters. 255ub = byte, 32000s = short
I am writing a lot of D2 code, but in my code t
On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 at 17:09:27 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:
On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
...
These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well as
"fn", but
while many languages use "fun", requiring "function" for all
functions
is almost unheard of (at least I haven
Rust has type classes from Haskell (with some simplifications
for higher kinds), uniqueness typing, and typestates.
As nice as kinds, typestates, typeclasses and several pointer
types may be, I was in the Rust mailing list and felt unable to
participate because they kept using terminology that
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 21:04:05 UTC, jerro wrote:
As someone that values readable code, I don't understand this
desire to turn every programming language into APL.
I would expect the abbreviations that rust uses to be perfectly
readable once you know the langauge.
I like a lot ML languages
On 11-07-2012 19:09, Timon Gehr wrote:
On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
...
These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well as "fn", but
while many languages use "fun", requiring "function" for all functions
is almost unheard of (at least I haven't heard of it), why? It'
On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 at 17:09:27 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:
On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
...
These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well as
"fn", but
while many languages use "fun", requiring "function" for all
functions
is almost unheard of (at least I haven
On 07/11/2012 06:45 PM, David Piepgrass wrote:
...
These benefits (except 3) all exist for "function" as well as "fn", but
while many languages use "fun", requiring "function" for all functions
is almost unheard of (at least I haven't heard of it), why? It's too
damn long! We write functions cons
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 19:28:11 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
On 7/8/2012 6:49 AM, bearophile wrote:
I think in Go the function stack is segmented and growable as
in Go. This saves
RAM if you need a small stack, and avoids stack overflows
where lot of stack is
needed.
The trouble with segment
On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 at 16:45:17 UTC, David Piepgrass wrote:
Anyway I think short vs long is much ado about nothing. No one
complains that we have to type "int" instead of "integer",
after all. Most languages have only a few keywords, which
people quickly learn. As long as all the standar
Short keywords are only important with barebones editors like
a default vi.
Nobody would use this for real development.
I started I long discussion on Reddit, because I complained
that the goal of 5 letter keywords is primitive, and brings
back memories of the time the compilers were memory c
On 7/10/12 10:59 AM, Patrick Stewar wrote:
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
On 7/10/12 2:30 AM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
Caligo wrote:
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan
Scholl wrote:
"bearophile" wrote:
I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
There aren't many people usi
Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
> On 7/10/12 2:30 AM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
> > Caligo wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
> >>> "bearophile" wrote:
> I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
> >>>
> >>> There aren't many people using Go on 32 bit sys
On 10 July 2012 13:35, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:
> On 7/10/12 2:30 AM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
>>
>> Caligo wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
"bearophile" wrote:
>
> I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
There a
On 7/10/12 2:30 AM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
Caligo wrote:
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
"bearophile" wrote:
I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
There aren't many people using Go on 32 bit systems. That's why there is
(was?) a big memory leak on the
Am Sun, 08 Jul 2012 21:51:57 +0200
schrieb "Daniel" :
> On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 13:49:50 UTC, bearophile wrote:
> > This seems a bit overkill to me:
> >
> > It's also possible to avoid any type ambiguity by writing
> > integer literals with a suffix. The suffixes i and u are for
> > the types
Caligo wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
>> "bearophile" wrote:
>>> I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
>>
>> There aren't many people using Go on 32 bit systems. That's why there is
>> (was?) a big memory leak on these systems which wasn't caugh
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Stefan Scholl wrote:
> "bearophile" wrote:
>> I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
>
> There aren't many people using Go on 32 bit systems. That's why there is
> (was?) a big memory leak on these systems which wasn't caught early on.
There aren
"bearophile" wrote:
> I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
There aren't many people using Go on 32 bit systems. That's why there is
(was?) a big memory leak on these systems which wasn't caught early on.
"jerro" wrote:
> I would expect the abbreviations that rust uses to be perfectly
> readable once you know the langauge.
There is a lot of noise (lot of special characters) in Rust code. Together
with short keywords like "fn" for function definition.
It's hard to see a structure in it. You can r
On 7/8/2012 2:32 PM, bearophile wrote:
Segmented stacks are useful for 32 bit address space. However, they are not
useful for 64 bit address spaces.
I think Go is meant to be used mostly on 64 bit servers.
Both the designers of Go and Rust are experienced people, and they plan to use
their lang
Walter Bright:
Thank you for your answers Walter, as you guess I am ignorant
about segmented stacks.
The trouble with segmented stacks are:
1. they have a significant runtime penalty
Also, they do not save RAM, they save address space. RAM is not
committed until a stack memory page is act
As someone that values readable code, I don't understand this
desire to turn every programming language into APL.
I would expect the abbreviations that rust uses to be perfectly
readable once you know the langauge.
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 13:49:50 UTC, bearophile wrote:
This seems a bit overkill to me:
It's also possible to avoid any type ambiguity by writing
integer literals with a suffix. The suffixes i and u are for
the types int and uint, respectively: the literal -3i has type
int, while 127u has
On 7/8/2012 6:49 AM, bearophile wrote:
I think in Go the function stack is segmented and growable as in Go. This saves
RAM if you need a small stack, and avoids stack overflows where lot of stack is
needed.
The trouble with segmented stacks are:
1. they have a significant runtime penalty
2. i
On Sunday, 8 July 2012 at 18:13:49 UTC, Stefan Scholl wrote:
"bearophile" wrote:
On default in Rust types are immutable. If you want the
mutable type you
need to annotate it with "mut" in some way.
Rust designers seems to love really short keywords, this is in
my opinion
a bit silly. On the
"bearophile" wrote:
> On default in Rust types are immutable. If you want the mutable type you
> need to annotate it with "mut" in some way.
>
> Rust designers seems to love really short keywords, this is in my opinion
> a bit silly. On the other hand in D you have keywords like "immutable"
> th
Thank for keeping us informed about Rust. i don't like the syntax, but
it is definitively an interesting language and something we should look
at as D people.
On 08/07/2012 15:49, bearophile wrote:
On Reddit they are currently discussing again about the Rust language,
and about the browser pr
On Reddit they are currently discussing again about the Rust
language, and about the browser prototype written in Rust, named
"Servo" (https://github.com/mozilla/servo ):
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/w6h7x/the_state_of_servo_a_mozilla_experiment_in/
So I've taken another look a
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