RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
| -Original Message- | From: Fred Heutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: 18 November 2002 19:33 | | Anyway, nowadays we get more spam than real email, and Jon Drukman is | still making great music, now with his live electro-pop version of | Bass Kittens. That's good to hear that he's still around and is still making music! My experience was pretty similar; after having discovered the hyperreal mailing lists in 1993 and suddenly finding this fast-growing global electronic music movement. In fact, right the way up until 1996, the internet for me was almost exclusively a means for communicating with other like-minded people about electronic music. Usenet, mailing lists and IRC were pretty much it, as my computer was way too under-specced to actually look at web sites in those days! But I'd never realised how many Americans were actually on uk-dance, and now I come to think of it I was actually on sf-raves for a while myself... Brendan
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/17/02 4:09 PM, Forrest L Norvell at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: point #2, IDM was not NAMED after the hyperreal mailing list. I joined [EMAIL PROTECTED] in September of 1993, soon after its formation. The preceding summer, Warp had released the first round of (artificial intelligence) records. Brian Behlendorf, the owner of Hyperreal and the founder of idm, had needed a name for the new list, and since the Warp series was called (artificial intelligence) and it was at least partially the model for the kind of music he wanted to discuss, I think he decided Intelligent Dance Music was as good a name as any. To my knowledge that was the first usage of the term IDM anywhere. Less than a year later, Warp brought out the compilation Artificial Intelligence 2, and Designers Republic incorporated postings from the idm list into their sleeve art. To me, the conclusion's pretty inescapably obvious. I stand corrected. I didn't realize the IDM list was around before the Artificial Intelligence compilations. Do people really take mailing list seriously? I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. The hard core of musicians and fans that push the techno bean along with their noses is very small. San Francisco has a pretty big reputation in the international (intelligent) techno scene because of people like Kit Clayton and Sutekh, and even though I'm no big cheese in the scene, I know both of those guys and say hi when I see them at shows. Sutekh, at least, I originally knew through the sf-raves mailing list, and I met Kit at MAD, which was for many years the only club night that focused on techno as such in San Francisco. Folks like Morgan Geist and Darshan Jesrani used to be active participants on this list, to say nothing of the ongoing involvement of Alan Oldham (although the list appears to have pissed him off one time too many, more's the pity), Sean Deason, and Todd Sines (among others). I'm pretty sure Fabrice Lig was a poster here before he started releasing music. The same goes for idm, where folks like CiM were posting to the list long before they started releasing music. It's an open-ended question (as per above) as to how influential these lists are, but in the small and relatively closed universe of techno, online forums have a large and growing presence. yrz, Forrest I guess you have a point but that only represents a small percentage of the growing techno scene. I can name a long list of artist that are highly successful like Dave Clarke, DJ Rush, or Robert Hood (Detroit techno man of the year) who do not promote or participate on mailing list.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I'm going to disagree with Cyclone a bit. While the 313 list has a place in the history of Detroit techno, our discussions have long been far more diverse than the intimations of single-mindedness indicate. I've been sort of amused by how one accusation of elitism got spun into this meandering ping pong battle over the meaning of 313 or something. The reason 313 has thrived for so long, against numerous clueless incoming squadrons, is that we have a lot of people here with differing opinions and no hesitation to express them, very deep experience, and a distaste for exactly the kind of navel-gazing of which we are now being accused. Now can we get past obvious trollbait like: I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. It's not about our disillusionment, Stephen, as if all 313ers could be said to have any single common view. It's about your presuppositions of the history and interconnection between this list and Detroit techno. You're welcome to your opinions on that; the more the merrier. But I would say that the archives are readily available, and a little bit of time skimming through them over the years might prove to be instructive. phred
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Actually, just to reiterate, I did not post these words so they are not my arguments at all. Someone cut and paste it so it looked like 'Cyclone wrote'... People should take care when they cut and paste or whatever so things are not ripped out of context or wrongly attributed to others. I'm going to disagree with Cyclone a bit. While the 313 list has a place in the history of Detroit techno, our discussions have long been far more diverse than the intimations of single-mindedness indicate. I've been sort of amused by how one accusation of elitism got spun into this meandering ping pong battle over the meaning of 313 or something. The reason 313 has thrived for so long, against numerous clueless incoming squadrons, is that we have a lot of people here with differing opinions and no hesitation to express them, very deep experience, and a distaste for exactly the kind of navel-gazing of which we are now being accused. Now can we get past obvious trollbait like: I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. It's not about our disillusionment, Stephen, as if all 313ers could be said to have any single common view. It's about your presuppositions of the history and interconnection between this list and Detroit techno. You're welcome to your opinions on that; the more the merrier. But I would say that the archives are readily available, and a little bit of time skimming through them over the years might prove to be instructive. phred
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Fred I'm not here to troll, it comes down to a difference in opinion. I'm here because I have an interest in 313 music, I've been buying Detroit techno since 1989. in response to your last paragraph a searchable database for the 313 list archives would be very helpful. on 11/17/02 10:26 PM, Fred Heutte at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to disagree with Cyclone a bit. While the 313 list has a place in the history of Detroit techno, our discussions have long been far more diverse than the intimations of single-mindedness indicate. I've been sort of amused by how one accusation of elitism got spun into this meandering ping pong battle over the meaning of 313 or something. The reason 313 has thrived for so long, against numerous clueless incoming squadrons, is that we have a lot of people here with differing opinions and no hesitation to express them, very deep experience, and a distaste for exactly the kind of navel-gazing of which we are now being accused. Now can we get past obvious trollbait like: I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. It's not about our disillusionment, Stephen, as if all 313ers could be said to have any single common view. It's about your presuppositions of the history and interconnection between this list and Detroit techno. You're welcome to your opinions on that; the more the merrier. But I would say that the archives are readily available, and a little bit of time skimming through them over the years might prove to be instructive. phred
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
My apologies, that was very careless of me. I was responding to Mr. Corn Warning Kent Williams on 11/17/02 10:27 PM, Cyclone Wehner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, just to reiterate, I did not post these words so they are not my arguments at all. Someone cut and paste it so it looked like 'Cyclone wrote'... People should take care when they cut and paste or whatever so things are not ripped out of context or wrongly attributed to others.
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
You're telling me! - a searchable archive would be fantastic. There's a catch 22 for new people (one of which is me), in that it's fairly tricky to say the least that people like myself would like to make a post about something, but as we all know could be responded to with the see the archives reply. My mouse can only take so much scrolling before the wheel melts. :) Dscaper. Aeonflux Radio - http://www.aeonflux.co.uk -Original Message- From: techno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 November 2002 06:55 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history snip in response to your last paragraph a searchable database for the 313 list archives would be very helpful.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I probably should have been more specific, Cyclone -- I was referring to your apparently favorable comment -- some interesting points -- but it's really the comments you quoted from the other email I was disagreeing with. I'm a pretty strong defender of 313 because it has kept going for years and years while all the other lists I joined way back when ended up sinking into a foul pit of flames and idiocy. It was almost exactly ten years ago this month that the legendary go away Moby thread was starting up on ne-raves; a couple years later, ne-raves lost its really unique camaraderie and became a toxic swamp of screeching about how hardcore was by far the best form of music ever made, or something. dc-raves, socal-raves, nw-raves, mw-raves, even my beloved sfraves -- all were sunk by the tragedy of write-only loudmouths. Some managed to recover and continue in reasonable fashion, but the people I knew from those lists long since disappeared, like leaving a favorite corner pub because the bar fights went from occasional distraction to ongoing nuisance. Among the public *ave lists I joined way back when, the honorable survivors are 313 and uk-dance. As for doing a searchable index of the 313 archives, Hyperreal is a volunteer-run system and would welcome someone coming along to hook up a bit of this and a bit of that and do it. As we always say, it's an SMOP -- simple matter of programming. phred
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I probably should have been more specific, Cyclone -- I was referring to your apparently favorable comment -- some interesting points -- but it's really the comments you quoted from the other email I was disagreeing with. Nah, for me some interesting points usually means that I hadn't thought of it that way, and don't necessarily agree but it's something I'll think about. It's not favourable or unfavourable. ;) I actually think mailing lists are very influential. Mailing lists and web sites actually mean that many more people have an outlet to express views and post 'reviews'. Almost anyone can be a 'critic' or anyone can be a 'reviewer' and it gives people networks. I have thought that there is an elitism in some techno ranks (not necessarily 313) but I find that out on the streets and in the clubs as much as here and among a select group at that. Actually there are times when this list constitutes my social life - long hours on the computer, ya know - so I am a big defender.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Less than a year later, Warp brought out the compilation Artificial Intelligence 2, and Designers Republic incorporated postings from the idm list into their sleeve art. Sorry to be pedantic, but those postings were actually from the UK-Dance list, I believe... But I'm certainly not questioning the original point which was that 'IDM' became an established name for a genre as a result of the original Hyperreal IDM list... Cheers, Tom
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 10:12:28AM +, tom churchill wrote: Less than a year later, Warp brought out the compilation Artificial Intelligence 2, and Designers Republic incorporated postings from the idm list into their sleeve art. Sorry to be pedantic, but those postings were actually from the UK-Dance list, I believe... It's quite possible you're right, although I was on UK-Dance at about that time and I don't remember Jon Drukman being a part of the list. Then again, my assertion was based on an interminable discussion thread (has there ever been any other kind?) on idm itself when AI 2 came out. It's also possible we're both right -- given the way that the messages and headers have been blenderized, they could almost have been from anywhere. Man, Greg Eden. I haven't thought of him in years. But enough counter-pedantry. I agree with Fred. 313's stayed relevant and interesting when a lot of other techno-related mailing lists have fallen to pieces. If you do ever have the time to kill reading the archives, you'll probably find it eye-opening, as I did, to see how 313 has changed over the years, in large part to mirror the changes in Detroit and perceptions of what techno is and means. About the only constants have been a fondness for Derrick May and Maurizio and squabbles over the greatness of Jeff Mills and Richie Hawtin. F -- . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)823-6356 http://www.pushby.com/forrest/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
| -Original Message- | From: Forrest L Norvell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: 18 November 2002 10:35 | | Sorry to be pedantic, but those postings were actually from the | UK-Dance list, I believe... | | It's quite possible you're right, although I was on UK-Dance at about | that time and I don't remember Jon Drukman being a part of the list. I was on both idm and UK-Dance, and am fairly sure that Warp used IDM posts because, as you mention, I definitely remember Jon Drukman being quoted on the AI 2 sleeve, and, as a San Franciscan, I doubt he'd have much reason to be subbed to uk-dance! I am definitely in agreement with those who are saying that 313 has stood the test of time, so to speak, than many of the other music lists that came into existence in the early 1990s. My relationship with 313 became basically monogamous by 1995, as the IDM list stagnated and the ambient list started to fade away, and even though I've been on and off of this list over the years, no other music lists really hold my interest all that much... Brendan
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Fred I'm not here to troll, it comes down to a difference in opinion. I'm here because I have an interest in 313 music, I've been buying Detroit techno since 1989. And why do you think we are on this list? [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- DISCLAIMER De gemeente Almelo aanvaardt voor haar medewerkers geen enkele aansprakelijkheid voor eventueel onjuist, onrechtmatig of ontoelaatbaar geacht gebruik van e-mail (inclusief bijlagen). Dit e-mail bericht is door de gemeente Almelo gecontroleerd op de aanwezigheid van eventuele virussen. Wij kunnen echter geen garantie afgeven dat al onze e-mail berichten volledig virus vrij zijn. Het is daarom verstandig uw binnenkomende e-mail berichten zelf op de mogelijke aanwezigheid van virussen te controleren. --
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I was on both idm and UK-Dance, and am fairly sure that Warp used IDM posts... I wasn't on either list at the time (I joined both in 1995 I think), so I was going on the text here... http://www.uk-dance.org/help/history.html ...which says: Warp's Artificial Intelligence album pretentious noodling or good music? Either way, the discussion got ripped off by Warp for the cover of their AI2 compilation. Cheers, Tom
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
As for doing a searchable index of the 313 archives, Hyperreal is a volunteer-run system and would welcome someone coming along to hook up a bit of this and a bit of that and do it. As we always say, it's an SMOP -- simple matter of programming. If anyone has an idea as to how to do this without having all the messages from the last 8 years exist as standard Web pages that can be tracked by search engines, let me know. Used to be that browsers could open up the GZIPs and read them right in the browser window, right? -d
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Ouch... that one's gotta hurt. ;) Dscaper -- Aeonflux Radio - http://www.aeonflux.co.uk A man who know's what he knows, and knows what he doesn't know, is the sign of a man who knows. (P.S. Puchaser of both Detroit and global techno... first rule of music is never to close your ears because of boundaries.) -Original Message- From: Jongsma, K.J. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 November 2002 11:01 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history Fred I'm not here to troll, it comes down to a difference in opinion. I'm here because I have an interest in 313 music, I've been buying Detroit techno since 1989. And why do you think we are on this list? [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- DISCLAIMER De gemeente Almelo aanvaardt voor haar medewerkers geen enkele aansprakelijkheid voor eventueel onjuist, onrechtmatig of ontoelaatbaar geacht gebruik van e-mail (inclusief bijlagen). Dit e-mail bericht is door de gemeente Almelo gecontroleerd op de aanwezigheid van eventuele virussen. Wij kunnen echter geen garantie afgeven dat al onze e-mail berichten volledig virus vrij zijn. Het is daarom verstandig uw binnenkomende e-mail berichten zelf op de mogelijke aanwezigheid van virussen te controleren. --
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
If you (I say figuratively) parse each message in a db (MySQL will suffice), then it's a case of working out the relationships between threads (reply to's, timestamps, etc). It's possible that's for sure. If anyone out there has got a breakdown of mail protocol, and standards used by the mail manager, then I can help throw some code together. Dscaper -- Aeonflux Radio - http://www.aeonflux.co.uk A man who know's what he knows, and knows what he doesn't know, is the sign of a man who knows. -Original Message- From: Dan Sicko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 November 2002 15:39 To: Fred Heutte Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history As for doing a searchable index of the 313 archives, Hyperreal is a volunteer-run system and would welcome someone coming along to hook up a bit of this and a bit of that and do it. As we always say, it's an SMOP -- simple matter of programming. If anyone has an idea as to how to do this without having all the messages from the last 8 years exist as standard Web pages that can be tracked by search engines, let me know. Used to be that browsers could open up the GZIPs and read them right in the browser window, right? -d
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
It's quite possible that Jon Drukman was subbed to uk-dance a decade ago -- I was, and a lot of us west coasters joined ne-raves and dc-raves and so on for the same reason, there were a few hundred of us online worldwide and it was exciting to hook up to a truly global and co-evolving music and technology scene. It was a different world -- most of the online action was on the now- forgotten world of BBSes, AOL had less than half a million subscribers, and you could read all postings in a dozen Usenet newsgroups every day and not fall behind. It was kind of nice, actually, even at 2400 bps. Anyway, nowadays we get more spam than real email, and Jon Drukman is still making great music, now with his live electro-pop version of Bass Kittens. Fred
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Well, it's like this: to some extent, the 313 list INVENTED the sort of over-reverent, concerned-with-absolute-purity, hardcore trainspotter version of Detroit Techno. A few journalists got on the list and started spreading the meme to the hoi polloi. People start seeing their opinions reflected back at them from magazines and think they got the world on lock. I mean there's a whole GENRE of music -- IDM -- that is NAMED after a mailing list. And, I might add, the mailing list is 95% of the worldwide market for the music. Does that make mailing lists influential, or just just a closed feedback loop? Some interesting points. And lest we forget, the whole futuristic utopian idea of techno was invented by Derrick May and Juan Atkins egging on British journalists some time after they started making the music. Sure, that was the idea, but they never said it was exclusive. I know Derrick listens to a bit of everything. The whole problem with journalists is they're writers, and they're always confusing an attractive narrative for reality. Now that is a generalisation!!! :)
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/17/02 8:44 AM, Cyclone Wehner at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it's like this: to some extent, the 313 list INVENTED the sort of over-reverent, concerned-with-absolute-purity, hardcore trainspotter version of Detroit Techno. A few journalists got on the list and started spreading the meme to the hoi polloi. People start seeing their opinions reflected back at them from magazines and think they got the world on lock. I mean there's a whole GENRE of music -- IDM -- that is NAMED after a mailing list. And, I might add, the mailing list is 95% of the worldwide market for the music. Some interesting points. Please elaborate on point #1. Who are these so called journalists and magazines? point #2, IDM was not NAMED after the hyperreal mailing list. Does that make mailing lists influential, or just just a closed feedback loop? Do people really take mailing list seriously? I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. And lest we forget, the whole futuristic utopian idea of techno was invented by Derrick May and Juan Atkins egging on British journalists some time after they started making the music. That could be said about the genere term techno but the ideology was nothing new to Juan Atkins and Derrick May. The whole problem with journalists is they're writers, and they're always confusing an attractive narrative for reality. Now that is a generalisation!!! :) It seems there is a lot of aspiring writers and journalists on the 313 list.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 11:35:19AM -0600, techno wrote: I mean there's a whole GENRE of music -- IDM -- that is NAMED after a mailing list. And, I might add, the mailing list is 95% of the worldwide market for the music. point #2, IDM was not NAMED after the hyperreal mailing list. I joined [EMAIL PROTECTED] in September of 1993, soon after its formation. The preceding summer, Warp had released the first round of (artificial intelligence) records. Brian Behlendorf, the owner of Hyperreal and the founder of idm, had needed a name for the new list, and since the Warp series was called (artificial intelligence) and it was at least partially the model for the kind of music he wanted to discuss, I think he decided Intelligent Dance Music was as good a name as any. To my knowledge that was the first usage of the term IDM anywhere. Less than a year later, Warp brought out the compilation Artificial Intelligence 2, and Designers Republic incorporated postings from the idm list into their sleeve art. To me, the conclusion's pretty inescapably obvious. Does that make mailing lists influential, or just just a closed feedback loop? Do people really take mailing list seriously? I think your a little disillusioned if you think a small community of fans have such a big impact on the scene. The hard core of musicians and fans that push the techno bean along with their noses is very small. San Francisco has a pretty big reputation in the international (intelligent) techno scene because of people like Kit Clayton and Sutekh, and even though I'm no big cheese in the scene, I know both of those guys and say hi when I see them at shows. Sutekh, at least, I originally knew through the sf-raves mailing list, and I met Kit at MAD, which was for many years the only club night that focused on techno as such in San Francisco. Folks like Morgan Geist and Darshan Jesrani used to be active participants on this list, to say nothing of the ongoing involvement of Alan Oldham (although the list appears to have pissed him off one time too many, more's the pity), Sean Deason, and Todd Sines (among others). I'm pretty sure Fabrice Lig was a poster here before he started releasing music. The same goes for idm, where folks like CiM were posting to the list long before they started releasing music. It's an open-ended question (as per above) as to how influential these lists are, but in the small and relatively closed universe of techno, online forums have a large and growing presence. yrz, Forrest -- . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)823-6356 http://www.pushby.com/forrest/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
True - it sometimes is an era that isn't easily discovered but it's not impossible - do the homework and you can learn about it. If it's handed to you on a platter then what's the point? well fist of all your putting infornation out there that's not easily accesable so it's more practlicle for people who have a genuin interest and curiosity about the music to learn about Detroit techno. Your also archiving an important part of history in a convieniant package for future refrence. So what do you want them to do then? everybody has a website nowadays how can information be more easier to get??? I think it's more rewarding to teach myself by reading books, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to records in a store, digging through old magazines, etc. certain aspects of that can be rewarding but it's mostly a hastle and very time consuming. Go and buy Britney Spears if you want easy-to-get music [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- DISCLAIMER De gemeente Almelo aanvaardt voor haar medewerkers geen enkele aansprakelijkheid voor eventueel onjuist, onrechtmatig of ontoelaatbaar geacht gebruik van e-mail (inclusief bijlagen). Dit e-mail bericht is door de gemeente Almelo gecontroleerd op de aanwezigheid van eventuele virussen. Wij kunnen echter geen garantie afgeven dat al onze e-mail berichten volledig virus vrij zijn. Het is daarom verstandig uw binnenkomende e-mail berichten zelf op de mogelijke aanwezigheid van virussen te controleren. --
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
What I find hard to get is the musical elitism. I can understand if Detroit techno fans don't listen to DJ Sammy, but... The stereotypical fan likes electro, villifies electroclash, outright, hates pop, hates RB, hates anything in the charts, maybe likes some jazz... Personally I think this has alienated people from getting into this music. You know, it's OK to like a Britney song, ya know, and like Richie Hawtin. Also I do distinctly recall that Kraftwerk had a top 40 hit once with The Model. We all have our prejudices, but there seems to be some secret code about what is OK to like and what isn't. My favourite comment was from someone who said they loved Moodymann but hated the gospel influence in his music. Say what? You don't find this purism among the actual producers, though. Inbox Message From: techno [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history Date: 12/11/2002 10:20:27 To: 313@hyperreal.org on 11/11/02 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. For many people it's a job - and that is what it takes to stay on top. It's not elitist, it's survival in a crowded world. If information on old and obsolete techno records is putting people out of business maybe they should consider a career change. regarding the whole section above: I don't understand. On one hand you're talking about having information put out there so that it's easier to find out about and those with genuine interest/curiosity about the music will learn about it. But then when you say that teaching yourself by reading about it, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to old records and digging through old magazines is a hastle and very time consuming. Who is the one with more genuine interest? The person who, without a one-stop shopping place for all things techno, goes out and finds out for themselves, dedicates time and money and goes through the hassle - or- the person who wants the quick and easy fix of finding everything in one place? I like the more practical approach of acquiring information. People would just have greater understanding of the artist and labels that have contributed to the Detroit techno genre. The information I have in my head and the records I have are more important to me *because* I've spent sh*t loads of my time digging it all up, searching it out, and going through the hassle of it all. Sounds like you want an easy answer. It's only information what you do with it is what's important. Besides we live in the 21st Century I like the concept of new technology making old methods obsolete.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I like Ritchie Hawtin and Happy Hardcore at the same time, imagine that. Both are cheesy and stupid, yet genius, in their own ways. Music is music, and it all doesnt have to serve purpose, and thats *ok* :) 11/12/2002 7:00:04 AM, Cyclone Wehner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I find hard to get is the musical elitism. I can understand if Detroit techno fans don't listen to DJ Sammy, but... The stereotypical fan likes electro, villifies electroclash, outright, hates pop, hates RB, hates anything in the charts, maybe likes some jazz... Personally I think this has alienated people from getting into this music. You know, it's OK to like a Britney song, ya know, and like Richie Hawtin. Also I do distinctly recall that Kraftwerk had a top 40 hit once with The Model. We all have our prejudices, but there seems to be some secret code about what is OK to like and what isn't. My favourite comment was from someone who said they loved Moodymann but hated the gospel influence in his music. Say what? You don't find this purism among the actual producers, though. Inbox Message From: techno [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history Date: 12/11/2002 10:20:27 To: 313@hyperreal.org on 11/11/02 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. For many people it's a job - and that is what it takes to stay on top. It's not elitist, it's survival in a crowded world. If information on old and obsolete techno records is putting people out of business maybe they should consider a career change. regarding the whole section above: I don't understand. On one hand you're talking about having information put out there so that it's easier to find out about and those with genuine interest/curiosity about the music will learn about it. But then when you say that teaching yourself by reading about it, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to old records and digging through old magazines is a hastle and very time consuming. Who is the one with more genuine interest? The person who, without a one-stop shopping place for all things techno, goes out and finds out for themselves, dedicates time and money and goes through the hassle - or- the person who wants the quick and easy fix of finding everything in one place? I like the more practical approach of acquiring information. People would just have greater understanding of the artist and labels that have contributed to the Detroit techno genre. The information I have in my head and the records I have are more important to me *because* I've spent sh*t loads of my time digging it all up, searching it out, and going through the hassle of it all. Sounds like you want an easy answer. It's only information what you do with it is what's important. Besides we live in the 21st Century I like the concept of new technology making old methods obsolete. --- -Ian Entropy (bhpc, happy vibe rec, new sample revolution, n.e. hardcore, boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.djentropy.com Soulseek: djentropy AIM: DJEntropy WinMX: djentropy422
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
11/12/2002 7:17:02 AM, DJ Entropy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Ritchie Hawtin and Happy Hardcore at the same time, imagine that. Both are cheesy and stupid, yet genius, in their own ways. Music is music, and it all doesnt have to serve purpose, and thats *ok* Oops, I meant to say: Music is music, and it all doesnt have to serve the *SAME purpose*, and thats *ok* :) 11/12/2002 7:00:04 AM, Cyclone Wehner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I find hard to get is the musical elitism. I can understand if Detroit techno fans don't listen to DJ Sammy, but... The stereotypical fan likes electro, villifies electroclash, outright, hates pop, hates RB, hates anything in the charts, maybe likes some jazz... Personally I think this has alienated people from getting into this music. You know, it's OK to like a Britney song, ya know, and like Richie Hawtin. Also I do distinctly recall that Kraftwerk had a top 40 hit once with The Model. We all have our prejudices, but there seems to be some secret code about what is OK to like and what isn't. My favourite comment was from someone who said they loved Moodymann but hated the gospel influence in his music. Say what? You don't find this purism among the actual producers, though. Inbox Message From: techno [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history Date: 12/11/2002 10:20:27 To: 313@hyperreal.org on 11/11/02 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. For many people it's a job - and that is what it takes to stay on top. It's not elitist, it's survival in a crowded world. If information on old and obsolete techno records is putting people out of business maybe they should consider a career change. regarding the whole section above: I don't understand. On one hand you're talking about having information put out there so that it's easier to find out about and those with genuine interest/curiosity about the music will learn about it. But then when you say that teaching yourself by reading about it, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to old records and digging through old magazines is a hastle and very time consuming. Who is the one with more genuine interest? The person who, without a one-stop shopping place for all things techno, goes out and finds out for themselves, dedicates time and money and goes through the hassle - or- the person who wants the quick and easy fix of finding everything in one place? I like the more practical approach of acquiring information. People would just have greater understanding of the artist and labels that have contributed to the Detroit techno genre. The information I have in my head and the records I have are more important to me *because* I've spent sh*t loads of my time digging it all up, searching it out, and going through the hassle of it all. Sounds like you want an easy answer. It's only information what you do with it is what's important. Besides we live in the 21st Century I like the concept of new technology making old methods obsolete. --- -Ian Entropy (bhpc, happy vibe rec, new sample revolution, n.e. hardcore, boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.djentropy.com Soulseek: djentropy AIM: DJEntropy WinMX: djentropy422 --- -Ian Entropy (bhpc, happy vibe rec, new sample revolution, n.e. hardcore, boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.djentropy.com Soulseek: djentropy AIM: DJEntropy WinMX: djentropy422
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
On Tuesday, November 12, 2002, at 07:00 AM, Cyclone Wehner wrote: What I find hard to get is the musical elitism. I think this comes across much more amplified than it really is, especially on a mailing list dedicated (on whatever sliding scale you think exists here) to Detroit techno. -d
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/12/02 2:23 AM, Jongsma, K.J. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what do you want them to do then? everybody has a website nowadays how can information be more easier to get??? Good question, Yes you can get a great deal of information from the Internet and yes some labels like +8 do a great job cataloging all their releases but is this the case for all Detroit techno artist and labels? Some of the more obscure artist and labels? Is doing a search on the internet as convenient as having most of the information archived on DVD? I'm only throwing out a suggestion for a DVD archive because I think it would be a good idea and very beneficial for people wanting to learn more about Detroit techno. The person who was recently asking about the rings of saturn and who did not get his question answered is a prime example of a person who would benefit form this type of archive, thousands of questions like that could be answered on DVD. Go and buy Britney Spears if you want easy-to-get music well buying music is another matter, anyone with a credit card should have no problem buying latest underground music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
And maybe someone can answer my original question? I'm looking for books that cover the history of Detroit music beyond (but not excluding) techno - maybe Dancing in the Streets? Any others? elitists need not answer ;) MEK Dan Sicko [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: marc christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .orgcc: techno [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history 11/09/02 01:57 PM Can we move this discussion to the 313-elite mailing list please? I believe the server forwards messages on a wireless network inside Lafayette Coney Island. -d On Saturday, November 9, 2002, at 01:21 PM, marc christensen wrote: dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
In my previous post the word elitist was referring to the collector types who are not very forthcoming about information on rare and limited releases. That's the way it has always been in the world of DJs and dance music - everyone wants that tune/record that nobody else has. I wouldn't expect this list to be any different. When it comes to techno there seems to be a gray area with records falling into obscurity especially from the very late 80's to early 90's. True - it sometimes is an era that isn't easily discovered but it's not impossible - do the homework and you can learn about it. If it's handed to you on a platter then what's the point? I think it's more rewarding to teach myself by reading books, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to records in a store, digging through old magazines, etc. MEK techno [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org gy.net cc: Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history 11/10/02 01:33 AM In my previous post the word elitist was referring to the collector types who are not very forthcoming about information on rare and limited releases. I was suggesting something like a DVD archive for listing singles, promos, remixes, un-released tracks, ect. from well known to the lesser know Detroit artist and labels. When it comes to techno there seems to be a gray area with records falling into obscurity especially from the very late 80's to early 90's. To give you example sometimes when going through old dance music magazines like Art Payne's column in Streetsounds magazine I'll see a review of a record that I never knew existed or maybe mention of a short lived Detroit techno label. Lets take this review by Josh Tearnan, The Vibe Magazine: Images - The Keys to Heaven/ It's Just a Groove (Siren Records) With the people producing this record, it's bound to be big Santonio (of Resses Santonio fame) Art Forest (remixer of Inner City), and Brian Hall. The A side, featuring vocals by Mischivous, has three mixes. The best is the club mix; it's classic inner city style, complete with backtracked beats and pumpin' keyboards. There are even samples from Martin Luther King's famous speech. The B side is also a prime cut. The only problem with this record is deciding which cut is better. on 11/9/02 12:21 PM, marc christensen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/11/02 10:15 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my previous post the word elitist was referring to the collector types who are not very forthcoming about information on rare and limited releases. That's the way it has always been in the world of DJs and dance music - everyone wants that tune/record that nobody else has. I wouldn't expect this list to be any different. that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. When it comes to techno there seems to be a gray area with records falling into obscurity especially from the very late 80's to early 90's. True - it sometimes is an era that isn't easily discovered but it's not impossible - do the homework and you can learn about it. If it's handed to you on a platter then what's the point? well fist of all your putting infornation out there that's not easily accesable so it's more practlicle for people who have a genuin interest and curiosity about the music to learn about Detroit techno. Your also archiving an important part of history in a convieniant package for future refrence. I think it's more rewarding to teach myself by reading books, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to records in a store, digging through old magazines, etc. certain aspects of that can be rewarding but it's mostly a hastle and very time consuming.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
That's the way it has always been... that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. For many people it's a job - and that is what it takes to stay on top. It's not elitist, it's survival in a crowded world. + When it comes to techno there seems to be a gray area with records falling into obscurity especially from the very late 80's to early 90's. True - it sometimes is an era that isn't easily discovered but it's not impossible - do the homework and you can learn about it. If it's handed to you on a platter then what's the point? well fist of all your putting infornation out there that's not easily accesable so it's more practlicle for people who have a genuin interest and curiosity about the music to learn about Detroit techno. Your also archiving an important part of history in a convieniant package for future refrence. I think it's more rewarding to teach myself by reading books, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to records in a store, digging through old magazines, etc. certain aspects of that can be rewarding but it's mostly a hastle and very time consuming. regarding the whole section above: I don't understand. On one hand you're talking about having information put out there so that it's easier to find out about and those with genuine interest/curiosity about the music will learn about it. But then when you say that teaching yourself by reading about it, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to old records and digging through old magazines is a hastle and very time consuming. Who is the one with more genuine interest? The person who, without a one-stop shopping place for all things techno, goes out and finds out for themselves, dedicates time and money and goes through the hassle - or- the person who wants the quick and easy fix of finding everything in one place? The information I have in my head and the records I have are more important to me *because* I've spent sh*t loads of my time digging it all up, searching it out, and going through the hassle of it all. Sounds like you want an easy answer. MEK
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/11/02 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that was my point about elitist objecting over this idea. For many people it's a job - and that is what it takes to stay on top. It's not elitist, it's survival in a crowded world. If information on old and obsolete techno records is putting people out of business maybe they should consider a career change. regarding the whole section above: I don't understand. On one hand you're talking about having information put out there so that it's easier to find out about and those with genuine interest/curiosity about the music will learn about it. But then when you say that teaching yourself by reading about it, listening to DJ sets, randomly listening to old records and digging through old magazines is a hastle and very time consuming. Who is the one with more genuine interest? The person who, without a one-stop shopping place for all things techno, goes out and finds out for themselves, dedicates time and money and goes through the hassle - or- the person who wants the quick and easy fix of finding everything in one place? I like the more practical approach of acquiring information. People would just have greater understanding of the artist and labels that have contributed to the Detroit techno genre. The information I have in my head and the records I have are more important to me *because* I've spent sh*t loads of my time digging it all up, searching it out, and going through the hassle of it all. Sounds like you want an easy answer. It's only information what you do with it is what's important. Besides we live in the 21st Century I like the concept of new technology making old methods obsolete.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Dan Sicko wrote on Sat, 9 Nov 2002 about following: Can we move this discussion to the 313-elite mailing list please? hey, IT'S NOT FAIR, i know you gotta have 313-ELITE -header set as well as you have to be able to fart NO UFO's to get on _that_ list! ok jus kiddin :) in reality, elitism is part of all cultures. you can't avoid it. just live with it. i'm looking forward to see the movie. for some reason i feel like quoting model 500 here: from ocean to ocean there will be shining new world is approaching nothing remains the same can you imagine a world where all men will be free, you be you and i'll be me to be free to be free to be free it all seems like a dream far away possibility but i tell you my friend it's closer than you think sakke - everybody dance, let's party together c'mon clap your hands! -- all systems are go
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
In my previous post the word elitist was referring to the collector types who are not very forthcoming about information on rare and limited releases. I was suggesting something like a DVD archive for listing singles, promos, remixes, un-released tracks, ect. from well known to the lesser know Detroit artist and labels. When it comes to techno there seems to be a gray area with records falling into obscurity especially from the very late 80's to early 90's. To give you example sometimes when going through old dance music magazines like Art Payne's column in Streetsounds magazine I'll see a review of a record that I never knew existed or maybe mention of a short lived Detroit techno label. Lets take this review by Josh Tearnan, The Vibe Magazine: Images - The Keys to Heaven/ It's Just a Groove (Siren Records) With the people producing this record, it's bound to be big Santonio (of Resses Santonio fame) Art Forest (remixer of Inner City), and Brian Hall. The A side, featuring vocals by Mischivous, has three mixes. The best is the club mix; it's classic inner city style, complete with backtracked beats and pumpin' keyboards. There are even samples from Martin Luther King's famous speech. The B side is also a prime cut. The only problem with this record is deciding which cut is better. on 11/9/02 12:21 PM, marc christensen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, T.J.Johnson wrote: The funny thing is, I've never noticed any elitism in the Detroit techno music business until I joined this list. It's interesting how the internet helps shape the world... Well, it's like this: to some extent, the 313 list INVENTED the sort of over-reverent, concerned-with-absolute-purity, hardcore trainspotter version of Detroit Techno. A few journalists got on the list and started spreading the meme to the hoi polloi. People start seeing their opinions reflected back at them from magazines and think they got the world on lock. I mean there's a whole GENRE of music -- IDM -- that is NAMED after a mailing list. And, I might add, the mailing list is 95% of the worldwide market for the music. Does that make mailing lists influential, or just just a closed feedback loop? And lest we forget, the whole futuristic utopian idea of techno was invented by Derrick May and Juan Atkins egging on British journalists some time after they started making the music. The whole problem with journalists is they're writers, and they're always confusing an attractive narrative for reality. I don't have to worry about being an elitist -- At any party, I'm the large guy with the beer gut and thick glasses, that everyone thinks is a cop or someone's dad. If I'm elite, I doubt people want to be quite this elite.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
I would like to see a comprehensive Detroit techno and Chicago house chronology of the music year by year. It may be more practical and cost effective to do something like this on a digital medium like CD-ROM or DVD since you would be covering a lot of ground with artist and record label discography's. Actually DVD would be ideal for this since you have the options of audio and video and it can store a vast amount of information. Techno Rebels is a good book going over the history and origins of the music but it really doesn't delve into the more obscure Detroit techno records and labels that should not be excluded from history. Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. on 11/8/02 5:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: actually - that's a really nice website. gives credit and some history to the trailblazers of Detroit music in #3 which brings me to the topic of books about the very same- to you Detroiters and Detroit historians a question - which books give the best history of Detroit music? Whether it be encyclopedia style or a more narrated story what I really love to see in a book is a discography in the back and maybe even eras broken down - ala Dan's Techno Rebels MEK
RE: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
does the elitist post to this list? -Original Message- From: techno [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 7:46 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history I would like to see a comprehensive Detroit techno and Chicago house chronology of the music year by year. It may be more practical and cost effective to do something like this on a digital medium like CD-ROM or DVD since you would be covering a lot of ground with artist and record label discography's. Actually DVD would be ideal for this since you have the options of audio and video and it can store a vast amount of information. Techno Rebels is a good book going over the history and origins of the music but it really doesn't delve into the more obscure Detroit techno records and labels that should not be excluded from history. Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. on 11/8/02 5:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: actually - that's a really nice website. gives credit and some history to the trailblazers of Detroit music in #3 which brings me to the topic of books about the very same- to you Detroiters and Detroit historians a question - which books give the best history of Detroit music? Whether it be encyclopedia style or a more narrated story what I really love to see in a book is a discography in the back and maybe even eras broken down - ala Dan's Techno Rebels MEK
Re[2]: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Last week on Invisible Cracker Mom: LHI does the elitist post to this list? He'd never admit to it. - Brian balistic Prince http://www.bprince.com - art and techno Strokes of s of Defiance EP . . . soon.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
on 11/8/02 7:38 PM, Lee Herrington IV at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: does the elitist post to this list? Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
The funny thing is, I've never noticed any elitism in the Detroit techno music business until I joined this list. It's interesting how the internet helps shape the world... marc christensen wrote: dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music. TJJ ~in a perfect world, nothing is perfect~ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
Can we move this discussion to the 313-elite mailing list please? I believe the server forwards messages on a wireless network inside Lafayette Coney Island. -d On Saturday, November 9, 2002, at 01:21 PM, marc christensen wrote: dear techno -- It's nice to see you can couple a good, fresh insight to a troll. Because you're right -- the old-school elitism of the NW side GQ cliques was very palpable, and has been documented well in interview sources. Your reminder even makes the self-justifying marginalization of disagreement implicit in your original post much more bearable. But doesn't this also mean it would be more Detroit techno of us not only to disagree, but also to withhold more information? If so, I will continue to do so, and shut up now. -marc At 6:46 PM -0600 11/8/02, techno wrote: Of coure the elitist will disagree with me on this. At 8:38 PM -0500 11/8/02, Lee Herrington IV wrote: does the elitist post to this list? At 11:05 AM -0600 11/9/02, techno wrote: Yes and they do not always share information. Elitism has always been a part of Detroit techno and underground dance music culture a social and political aspect to the music.
Re: (313) 8-Mile - Detroit music history
actually - that's a really nice website. gives credit and some history to the trailblazers of Detroit music in #3 which brings me to the topic of books about the very same- to you Detroiters and Detroit historians a question - which books give the best history of Detroit music? Whether it be encyclopedia style or a more narrated story what I really love to see in a book is a discography in the back and maybe even eras broken down - ala Dan's Techno Rebels MEK Patrick Wacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org utpost.com cc: Subject: (313) 8-Mile 11/08/02 04:20 PM Check out the site for Eminem's film... http://www.8-mile.com/ It's a Flash based site with plenty of things to see and do... If you pull down the map of Detroit and click on #3, you'll get a brief history of Detroit Techno! (Moby definately excluded! ;) Anyway, go have a look around. Peace, Patrick. -- Southern Outpost Distributed worldwide via Twilight 76 http://www.southernoutpost.com p:+61 412 313 151 f:+ 612 9032 6046 --
