RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... / Scion in Leeds on Friday
Francis is still using two gramaphones ala Jimmy Saville as well. joke Francis. (christ I've given you some stick this week!) Well the joke's on you sonny as instead of journeying to Liverpool on Friday to watch you play I'll go to Leeds to watch Scion on laptops with Ableton instead. and Dan Bell : ) .well I will if I can contact The Darkside - the website address they have on the poster for the event doesn't seem to be working. Can any of you folks that have been there before let me have some contact details? Brendan? Nick? were you there once Martin?
RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... / Scion in Leeds on Friday
Can any of you folks that have been there before let me have some contact details? Francis, if you get stuck, I think the kid doing the party goes in duncs shop, so you could try duncan... see you this week at some point... _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... / Scion in Leeds on Friday
You can get hold of Paul (Darkside) on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Martin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... / Scion in Leeds on Friday Francis is still using two gramaphones ala Jimmy Saville as well. joke Francis. (christ I've given you some stick this week!) Well the joke's on you sonny as instead of journeying to Liverpool on Friday to watch you play I'll go to Leeds to watch Scion on laptops with Ableton instead. and Dan Bell : ) .well I will if I can contact The Darkside - the website address they have on the poster for the event doesn't seem to be working. Can any of you folks that have been there before let me have some contact details? Brendan? Nick? were you there once Martin?
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
On Dec 4, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. wrote: isnt that what the CD industry was saying about vinyl in the 80s? somehow i doubt people with vinyl are worried about keeping up with the times. again, you have to look at who is saying these things. obviously software people have a vested in taking over the deejay market with something that doesnt need any more money invested in it immediately. no offense to the software companies, but they havent been around long enough to be trusted alone with the future of our music. their interest is in selling as many copies of updated software as they can, this is also why im pretty wary of software based music production. there's something inherently evil about it somehow. think about it like this: when you buy turntables you give one company your money, then you give your money to another when you buy your mixer, and then many many companies when you buy your records. with software, you give all your money to one place, and then you give it to them again later when the upgraded version of the software comes out. there's no end in sight of giving them your money, especially when they stop making updates to the version of the software you have. ive never had to upgrade my technics, or any of my records. I gotta say that the upgrade marketing thingy is something that gives me pause as well. I suppose that every large-scale change in music re/production will have both good and bad repercussions, but this is a good reason to preserve some of the old ways of being a DJ. I suspect that, 20 years from now, most DJs will be fluent in both old and newer modes of performance (i.e. vinyl and digital). things that make you go hmm, Luis
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
- Original Message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] there was also an article with j mascis and kevin shields talking about the benifits of the fender jaguar and jazzmaster dont even get me started. j mascis is my favorite guitarist by far. i went to see him in like 96 for the 4th time and there was NO ONE there, i just got to stand right in front of him while he played the whole show. he opened with out there, brilliant. and ive always wanted a jazzmaster because of him, even though i dont like playing the guitar all that much anymore. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Where's the Top VST plug-in month mag tho? *lol* Martin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... it's not just a techno thing. there's a reason why guitar player magazine is a top seller. besides, you can go wathc a band and just see what sort of guitar/amps they have. but i distinctly remember reading a breakdown of the twenty guitar pedals and 10 amps that j masic used. there was also an article with j mascis and kevin shields talking about the benifits of the fender jaguar and jazzmaster On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. wrote:
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
-- Original Message -- From: Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you think that clinging to the past is justified, then do it. But expect to get left behind if you do, simply as that. isnt that what the CD industry was saying about vinyl in the 80s? somehow i doubt people with vinyl are worried about keeping up with the times. again, you have to look at who is saying these things. obviously software people have a vested in taking over the deejay market with something that doesnt need any more money invested in it immediately. no offense to the software companies, but they havent been around long enough to be trusted alone with the future of our music. their interest is in selling as many copies of updated software as they can, this is also why im pretty wary of software based music production. there's something inherently evil about it somehow. think about it like this: when you buy turntables you give one company your money, then you give your money to another when you buy your mixer, and then many many companies when you buy your records. with software, you give all your money to one place, and then you give it to them again later when the upgraded version of the software comes out. there's no end in sight of giving them your money, especially when they stop making updates to the version of the software you have. ive never had to upgrade my technics, or any of my records. I think is scares DJ's because the power is in the hands of the people now (i.e. it doesn't cost a fortune to get started) and that is a good thing from where I'm standing. it depends. in a lot of ways i feel like its good that broke people can easily get a start in this thing. but in other ways, it cant be a good thing. i mean it was obviously was too easy in alot of ways already, there are plenty of lazy deejays out there who use vinyl. making it any easier i think will promote even more laziness. sometimes i agree with theo's sentiments that it should be about going out and doing the work to hunt down good records. that is part of the fun of deejaying, isnt it? i mean if you dont enjoy digging in crates and listening to obscure records that no one has ever heard of, youre not a deejay are you? tom andythepooh.com
(313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Did you see Kraftwerk this year? Where they live? Do we care anymore, it's not a techno argument is it? It's not a matter of live with Ableton. It's more DJ set or Performers own material, they could have two spoons for me... Martin On 3 Dec 2004, at 11:55, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
And what about Tiesto? he claims playing a dj set with selfmade burned cd's = live and he announced it shameless as : LIVE IN CONCERT. wrhoa. regards aida (who lives in the netherlands) -- meanwhile...check: Rebelbass weblog @ 3voor12: http://www.3voor12.vpro.nl/rebelbass Rebelbass home: http://www.rebelbass.com Did you see Kraftwerk this year? Where they live? Do we care anymore, it's not a techno argument is it? It's not a matter of live with Ableton. It's more DJ set or Performers own material, they could have two spoons for me... Martin On 3 Dec 2004, at 11:55, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Martin. I bet kraftwerk would want a controller like mine and would think yours is rubbish. So there. ; ) _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Martin Dust wrote: It's not a matter of live with Ableton. It's more DJ set or Performers own material, they could have two spoons for me... -- Sorry, never meant it was a matter of Abelton, just abused them as an example. As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? Tosh On 3 Dec 2004, at 11:55, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
-- Sorry, never meant it was a matter of Abelton, just abused them as an example. As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? Tosh Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? djing. especially if they can respond to the dancers (ie. playing a prelaid out set in ableton is not far removed from playing a mix cd and pretending to dj) robin...
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I'm so glad this list hasn't had this conversation (or a close version of it) before. perhaps, to switch things up we could talk about Jeff Mills, Hawtin or May. sorry...grumpy this morning. --- robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? djing. especially if they can respond to the dancers (ie. playing a prelaid out set in ableton is not far removed from playing a mix cd and pretending to dj) robin... __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
On 3 Dec 2004, at 13:55, diana potts wrote: I'm so glad this list hasn't had this conversation (or a close version of it) before. y'know what, i think we've had a similar discussion before (look in the archives for 3rd wave djing :) ) robin...
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
FYI, granted that you can deliver an Ableton Live set that is previously arranged or contains one clip that is a complete mix CD, I have yet to see anyone do that. Every one I've seen has put in something new or had plenty to tweak with Ableton. If they aren't exploring those options then they don't deserve Ableton Live. telepathic regards, the kooky scientist As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? djing. especially if they can respond to the dancers (ie. playing a prelaid out set in ableton is not far removed from playing a mix cd and pretending to dj) robin...
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
don't get me wrong fred, i wasn't saying that people who use Live to dj were doing this. only that it was possible. i personally think in a couple of years time most people will be using laptops to 'dj'and i don't think that is a bad thing. robin... On 3 Dec 2004, at 14:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI, granted that you can deliver an Ableton Live set that is previously arranged or contains one clip that is a complete mix CD, I have yet to see anyone do that. Every one I've seen has put in something new or had plenty to tweak with Ableton. If they aren't exploring those options then they don't deserve Ableton Live.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
i personally think in a couple of years time most people will be using laptops to 'dj' hmm, do you think? I'm not that sure. There's still strong anti-laptop feeling about. danny says to me - when you gonna stop using that gameboy to dj with? I say - shut up and get your hair cut skip-rat, and get with the program Francis is still using two gramaphones ala Jimmy Saville as well. joke Francis. (christ I've given you some stick this week!) I'll buy you a pint to say sorry. I'll even give you some records. : ) but, yeah. long way to go I reckon. I'd like to point out I did actually play records on Sunday at Aficinado and really enjoyed it, but ableton is deffo the way forward. for sure. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring.
RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I can't say if it's live or not. I also can't say much about the performance there. But if it was anything like the performance here in america, I call it boring. He would literally play that same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minute. Ja'Maul Redmond 1100 S. Tryon St. Suite 300, Charlotte, NC 28203 t: 704.343.9900 f:704.343. www.perkinswill.com Perkins+Will. Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society -Original Message- From: Tosh Cooey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:43 AM To: Martin Dust Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Martin Dust wrote: It's not a matter of live with Ableton. It's more DJ set or Performers own material, they could have two spoons for me... -- Sorry, never meant it was a matter of Abelton, just abused them as an example. As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? Tosh On 3 Dec 2004, at 11:55, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
once people see that it isn't cheating (what, no beatmatching?) and that a laptop can do stuff records can't then things will change. anyway all the people i've seen knock the laptop approach have been over 30. you start to fear change at that age, lol. all the kids coming through, i think, will be much more receptive to new approaches. funnily enough, i still much prefer playing on well set up decks and mixer (with a cycloops for added touches). i can see both sides of the 'argument'. robin... On 3 Dec 2004, at 14:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i personally think in a couple of years time most people will be using laptops to 'dj' hmm, do you think? I'm not that sure. There's still strong anti-laptop feeling about. danny says to me - when you gonna stop using that gameboy to dj with? I say - shut up and get your hair cut skip-rat, and get with the program Francis is still using two gramaphones ala Jimmy Saville as well. joke Francis. (christ I've given you some stick this week!) I'll buy you a pint to say sorry. I'll even give you some records. : ) but, yeah. long way to go I reckon. I'd like to point out I did actually play records on Sunday at Aficinado and really enjoyed it, but ableton is deffo the way forward. for sure.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
once people see that it isn't cheating I dont think one person I know (except yourself Robin) can get their heads round that. *sniff sniff, sheds a tear* no one understands me, blah, blub, sniff sniff. teeehe. death to the luddites. order a trax back catologue repress, I got a big ol' bag o' bones for Larry Sherman to be knocking up some of those classics. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I don't think there is an argument to be had, it's like the Music Union years ago - same old boring sh1te really - samplers aren't live blah blah blah, except most of the barking is coming from the internal techno camp, people who care too much about the detail to enjoy themselves. It's well boring... Techno is as much about the future, if not more than any other music and if you think that clinging to the past is justified, then do it. But expect to get left behind if you do, simply as that. I think is scares DJ's because the power is in the hands of the people now (i.e. it doesn't cost a fortune to get started) and that is a good thing from where I'm standing. Martin
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Redmond, Ja'Maul wrote: He would literally play that same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minute. Ha ha!! Isn't that *all* minimal music?! But this brings us to what Martin says: Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I was making a comment on the content of the music, which has nothing to do with Hawtin live or Hawtin the d.j.. I saw one of my favorites ,Kit Clayton do the same thing but worse. Ambient music that trailed off to one singular distored sine wave. The wave carried on for 8 minutes. 8 straight f*ckin minutes of a sine wave. There comes a time when self expression become self absorbtion. We are performing to an audience are we not? Take more drugs joke Martin
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I think you're putting too much thought into it all Tosh. Perhaps playing the instigator that you like to... Flyers/Promoters sell a name...that's it. Most people who go see Hawtin/Mill, etc. could care less if they are live, djing or knitting. They go to see the man, the myth, the legend. A very small portion of that audience sits there and analyzes the performance to death. maybe they need to relax and kick back another beer... and Tosh you've been around long enough to know this, so I still have a hard time figuring out why you feel the need to ask why. ??? What are you going to ask next- if set lists should be included on flyers so the audience knows when to expect then as well? Personally, I think it's more about the quality of the music the artist is producing rather than the focus of this roundabout discussion. d --- Tosh Cooey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Redmond, Ja'Maul wrote: He would literally play that same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minute. Ha ha!! Isn't that *all* minimal music?! But this brings us to what Martin says: Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com
RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Too many chin-scratchers makes for dull vibe. Not enough leaves no quality control. This is waay too much chin scratching. Deciding on whether to see an artist based on his kit? Come on. Your going to see the artist not his tools. Part of that experience is the chance that he might do something unexpected, whether it works or not is up to the connection between the artist, the audience and the artistic execution. Personally I'm a big fan of the take-a-chance-if-it-don't-pan-out-then-walk method. Been working great for me for years. Anything else would be uncivilized. And why's jamaul a troll. Did I miss something? Kamal K. Stoddard Turner Broadcasting Systems Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change. -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:44 AM To: Tosh Cooey Cc: 313 Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I missed something also,:) where was I called a troll. And what kind of troll. The small kind that dwell in caves or the kind that lures bate? What was that in reference to? Also here's my comment. I sent it privately I guess but not to the list. If it double post,then sorry. Redmond, Ja'Maul wrote: I don't have an argument about the gear. I can care less. They can use whatever. I guess my statement was off topic since it was more about whether the teqnique is acceptable. People can use whatever they want to perform, in my book. I was making a comment on the content of the music, which has nothing to do with Hawtin live or Hawtin the d.j.. I saw one of my favorites ,Kit Clayton do the same thing but worse. Ambient music that trailed off to one singular distored sine wave. The wave carried on for 8 minutes. 8 straight f*ckin minutes of a sine wave. There comes a time when self expression become self absorbtion. We are performing to an audience are we not? I love minimal techno but I just can't listen to the same sample loop for 15 minutes with some fxs or vocals behind it regardless of the gear or the performer. Ja'Maul Redmond 1100 S. Tryon St. Suite 300, Charlotte, NC 28203 t: 704.343.9900 f:704.343. www.perkinswill.com Perkins+Will. Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society -Original Message- From: Stoddard, Kamal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:52 AM To: 'Martin Dust'; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Too many chin-scratchers makes for dull vibe. Not enough leaves no quality control. This is waay too much chin scratching. Deciding on whether to see an artist based on his kit? Come on. Your going to see the artist not his tools. Part of that experience is the chance that he might do something unexpected, whether it works or not is up to the connection between the artist, the audience and the artistic execution. Personally I'm a big fan of the take-a-chance-if-it-don't-pan-out-then-walk method. Been working great for me for years. Anything else would be uncivilized. And why's jamaul a troll. Did I miss something? Kamal K. Stoddard Turner Broadcasting Systems Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change. -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:44 AM To: Tosh Cooey Cc: 313 Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Ok, well at a recent party I did with the Outlet guys we had Ian O'Brien and Wildplanet on the bill. Wildplanet virtually bought a whole stdio with him rigged up through a 24 channel mixing desk. From my limited understanding of these things it appeared he was loading full tracks with all thier individual parts in from a laptop and then running them through all manner of synths and effects modules. For me that was a live show. Ian OB hooked a laptop in and played unreleased stuff from Ableton along with regular 2 deck mixing. For me that was just a good DJ set. Either way they both sounded dope though, that was the important thing. - Original Message - From: Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tosh Cooey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313 (E-mail) 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
FW: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? right here. Not to highlight the fact though. Just thought I'd missed something. Maybe he isn't calling you one. I'm pretty sure I missed something. Speaking of metro area. Haven't heard the new jers devils, but it looks like picadilly's found abox of moves original 12's. If you haven't got one. Here's your chance. Kamal K. Stoddard Turner Broadcasting Systems Entech Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change.
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
I actually think Tosh has a bit of a point, especially in regard to, say, how one perceives things when one goes to see Richie Hawtin vs. when one goes (to Mutek, for example) to see Plastikman live. *Watches as Garrett rushes in to the rescue* ;) - Greg (who is one of those I only care what comes out of the speakers types)
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
Don't disagree with that at all but does it matter what Hawtin or Plastikman uses - that would be my point. Right the rest of the boys are up, lazy bastards - down to it... Martin - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:22 PM Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... I actually think Tosh has a bit of a point, especially in regard to, say, how one perceives things when one goes to see Richie Hawtin vs. when one goes (to Mutek, for example) to see Plastikman live. *Watches as Garrett rushes in to the rescue* ;) - Greg (who is one of those I only care what comes out of the speakers types)
RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
i feel you there, ja'maul. i saw that shtick-- he played a one bar plastikman loop for like 15 minutes. didn't even feel the need to throw a little autofilter or something on there. very minimal, i guess. and not to start another diss rich thread (i usually enjoy his dj sets), but i've never heard him let a single record play that long. and even looped bangers have breaks... which leads me to side with Martin on this. i don't care what gear someone's running-- i want to hear a spontaneous, responsive, interesting set of music. --- Redmond, Ja'Maul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't say if it's live or not. I also can't say much about the performance there. But if it was anything like the performance here in america, I call it boring. He would literally play that same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minute. Ja'Maul Redmond 1100 S. Tryon St. Suite 300, Charlotte, NC 28203 t: 704.343.9900 f:704.343. www.perkinswill.com Perkins+Will. Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society -Original Message- From: Tosh Cooey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:43 AM To: Martin Dust Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Martin Dust wrote: It's not a matter of live with Ableton. It's more DJ set or Performers own material, they could have two spoons for me... -- Sorry, never meant it was a matter of Abelton, just abused them as an example. As for: It's more DJ set or Performers own material well Ricardo was creating drums and just strange noises and triggering them by hand, and Richie was sampling records and playing with those, much like most musicians do these days with samples. So were they live or DJ'ing? Tosh On 3 Dec 2004, at 11:55, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
tosh- aren't those two also using some sort of 'secret box' that i believe is an actual synthesizer or drum machine or something? i know they brought one to beat street last spring, but were too, er...distracted, to ever use it. On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Tosh Cooey wrote: After the weekend in London for the Richie/Ricardo spectacle I have a question: What exactly does live mean? Can the word live be replaced by Playing their own music? I ask because during the course of the show there were moments when Richie would put on a record, grab a loop from the record and let that play while Ricardo programmed live beats or just plain strange bloobly noises and then Richie would go to work doing things with effects and the foot controller or even just noodling about with Abelton LIVE... For large stretches of time not a record was playing. Is that any more or less live than somebody playing a live set from Abelton? It's really unfortunate that Fabric sequesters the DJs because to watch them performing would be a lot of fun for the crowd I think. Tosh -- McIntosh Cooey - Twelve Hundred Group LLC - http://www.1200group.com/
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
a lot of the cool old techno used to have gear lists in the liner gear fetish/technique intrigue is a quite common amongst techno listeners. or maybe its just my friends... -Joe - Original Message - From: Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tosh Cooey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313 (E-mail) 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:43 AM Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
-- Original Message -- From: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] a lot of the cool old techno used to have gear lists in the liner gear fetish/technique intrigue is a quite common amongst techno listeners. or maybe its just my friends... it might just be a dork thing. i realised last night that me and my friends are the kind of people who cheer when a deejay puts a good record on the platter, we dont even need to hear the track to get excited. gear lists are cool though. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
if you're considering where to go for a night of music, I'd want to have an idea of whether to expect a DJ set or a live set. sure, maybe the music would be good either way, but with a live set, you may be going because you are a particular fan of that producer's music. hearing someone mix other peoples music and hearing them perform their own are two vastly different things IMO. different enough to make a distinction when promoting events and shopping for an evening activity. :) -Joe - Original Message - From: Stoddard, Kamal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Martin Dust' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:52 AM Subject: RE: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Too many chin-scratchers makes for dull vibe. Not enough leaves no quality control. This is waay too much chin scratching. Deciding on whether to see an artist based on his kit? Come on. Your going to see the artist not his tools. Part of that experience is the chance that he might do something unexpected, whether it works or not is up to the connection between the artist, the audience and the artistic execution. Personally I'm a big fan of the take-a-chance-if-it-don't-pan-out-then-walk method. Been working great for me for years. Anything else would be uncivilized. And why's jamaul a troll. Did I miss something? Kamal K. Stoddard Turner Broadcasting Systems Bebop was about change, about evolution. It wasn't about standing still and becoming safe. If anybody wants to keep creating they have to be about change. -Original Message- From: Martin Dust [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:44 AM To: Tosh Cooey Cc: 313 Subject: Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms... Nope, do you want me to list what pants Surgeon wears when he plays at Dust? After all if they are to tight the could make a difference. It's just to anal and dull. If you go and see Richie and don't expect minimal, I'd be wondering which rock you've be under. Do you read all the ingredients on the food you buy? It's the mentality that is wrong and more and more artist refuse to have Live put at the side for any gig because it's impossible to define and all the techno bores just love to jump down the promoters throat. Having the same kit or records won't make you into a Claude Young or Surgeon, I don't see why the focus has shifted, bands don't list all the kit they play on...why should we be any different? It's not the way it is, 99.9% of people don't care, they just came to enjoy themselves not worry about which plug-in/needle/decks/pants where used. Martin Martin Dust wrote: Who cares Tosh to be honest... Martin How can you know what to expect when you see the name of a performer on a flyer? For example if you see Richie Hawtin maybe you will expect what Ja'Maul the Troll described. But if you see Richie Hawtin LIVE then what can you expect? Do performers need to start listing what gear they will be performing with? Jeff Mills w/ 909, Abelton, and Slide Whistle. I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to go to a Hawtin show with the same minimal sample for 15 to 20 minutes, but I would go if it was the Blue Machine and cycloops and the other junk... I also think anyone who wants to discuss if this is right or wrong should be shot. It's the way it is, and at least let's try and develop an understanding of what's happening. Tosh
Re: (313) Ok, time for a can of worms...
it's not just a techno thing. there's a reason why guitar player magazine is a top seller. besides, you can go wathc a band and just see what sort of guitar/amps they have. but i distinctly remember reading a breakdown of the twenty guitar pedals and 10 amps that j masic used. there was also an article with j mascis and kevin shields talking about the benifits of the fender jaguar and jazzmaster On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. wrote: -- Original Message -- From: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] a lot of the cool old techno used to have gear lists in the liner gear fetish/technique intrigue is a quite common amongst techno listeners. or maybe its just my friends... it might just be a dork thing. i realised last night that me and my friends are the kind of people who cheer when a deejay puts a good record on the platter, we dont even need to hear the track to get excited. gear lists are cool though. tom andythepooh.com
