Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-11 Thread stephen
I don't think traditional African musical concepts on rhythm was as big of an
influence on early house and techno as you may think.
The rhythm arrangements had more to do with 16 step drum machine sequencer of
the Roland XOX boxes.
I remember talking to Adonis on the phone in the mid 90's when he was with
Godfathers productions, I don't know the man personally but I was just calling
about mix tapes and he started talking about the early house sound and said the
Roland TR808 started it all, If you look at Cybotron or Africa Bambaataa it was
the 808.
I know Derrick May used lots of 727 but I hear more of a latin influence, you
seem to forget the impotence latino's had on early electro and house.
There was definitely a black or African American quality to it though, I
remember n the late 80's the white club crowed in the US didn't like Chicago
house or Detroit techno because it was too black or disco.
Around 89 you started hearing house tracks from overseas like pump up the
volume or children of the revolution being played in New Wave clubs.
Black clubs in in the South didn't like house music because it was too disco
or gay, they played Rap, P-Funk and Freestyle, you occasionally would hear
electro tracks like Clear by Cybotron  or Planet Rock being mixed in a
freestyle set.
You have to remember that house music was underground disco of the 80's, it
wasn't excepted by a white crowed in the US until rave culture and it wasn't
really excepted by black culture unless you were from Chicago.
Actually I remember some of the first techno that was being accepted by the
alternative (new wave/industrial) white crowed was 808 State and Cybersonik in
1990.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African diaspora
 and African musical influences.

 Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the begginning.
 It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm instead of
 an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too much
 either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the
 sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this
 distinction.

 No one ever said that Detroit pioneers are and were not influenced by other
 kinds of music. Yes Germany plays a big role because of Kraftwerk. But Juan
 Atkins said the Kraftwerk told him their biggest influence is James Brown ( a
 Black American rhythm master).

 I want to recall Lester Kenyatta's post about the first people coming from
 Africa and how strong their cultural contributions have been on the world.

 No one is saying that music springs up out of nowhere, Kodwo Eshun says that
 music is its own genesis but I can't agree with that because that sounds
 ahistorical but what I am saying is that this thing called Detroit Techno
 comes from Detroit.
 And these men and women are the pioneers of this music and that has something
 to do with the people who picked up on it later; they were listening to these
 folks.

 I still don't quite understand this disbelief over Blacks inventing music
 because I think that, that is a decontextualized statement.

 Five



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread Nick Walsh
For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the same
sh*t again and again week after f**king week I
thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I
realise that non of these discussions ever reach a
conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming about
the same old b*ll*cks...

Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I
don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno
either because I'm not biased and neither are most
ordinary people. You like what you like regardless of
it's origins unless you're a nazi or a
hypocrite... 

Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the subscribers
to this list... No wonder so many heads have
unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they just
wanna moan about the same old sh*t...

I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this
subject again...

out,
Nick (Dj Pacific:)

--- christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  
  I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too
 fast, there's no
  rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban
 enough. House is too
  gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was
 waiting to get paid
  from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on
 I-75 and Mack. Or
  living in a refrigerator box like my man
 Jean-Michel Basquiat. 
 
 This is something that really bothers me.  Although
 I am white (or
 caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural
 diversity and a strong
 black influence are what make Detroits music excell.
  Think about this-
 how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs are
 black?  Without the
 black influence, or any cultural influence on dance
 music, the music
 becomes bland, boring, and lame.  
 
 One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans
 think that techno or
 electronic music in general is a European thing. 
 The mainstream music
 industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier
 product of dance music
 to a white audience.  Its amazing how well this
 works, for even when you
 have an alleged underground rave scene which has
 grown nationwide, yet 
 still attracts a largely white suburban audience-
 despite the fact that
 the music originated in Black communities, and
 despite the fact that
 ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan
 PLUR.  Market
 segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping
 are very sucessful tools
 used by the media coroporations.  
 
 To be able to go agianst the current black musician
 stereotype is VERY
 difficult.  The media has burned in the minds of
 America's youth that
 black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto,
 and sex.  A lot of
 these racist stereotypes have been around for
 hundreds of years.  The
 current pimp stereotype of a black man is very
 insulting and dangerous
 as it is reminicent of the old stereotype of black
 men as sexual
 preditors.  It was this stereotype that slowed the
 growth of early rock
 and roll, as parents were scared that thier young,
 teenage daughters were 
 idolizing Black men.  I recall Mos Def once saying
 that in the media,
 whenever you see a white pimp they are always
 running legal businesses,
 and they are always referred to as businessmen
 with a very professional
 appeareance. Black pimps however are always
 fitting the same stereotype,
 and are often linked with sexual violence.  
 
 Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this
 forever.  It just scares me
 that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as
 rock, r'n'b, etc.  It is
 already heading that way with trance.  
 
   -christos
 
 

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Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread 101 101
here here

--- Nick Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the
 same
 sh*t again and again week after f**king week I
 thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I
 realise that non of these discussions ever reach a
 conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming
 about
 the same old b*ll*cks...
 
 Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I
 don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit
 techno
 either because I'm not biased and neither are most
 ordinary people. You like what you like regardless
 of
 it's origins unless you're a nazi or a
 hypocrite... 
 
 Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the
 subscribers
 to this list... No wonder so many heads have
 unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they
 just
 wanna moan about the same old sh*t...
 
 I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this
 subject again...
 
 out,
 Nick (Dj Pacific:)
 
 --- christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  
   I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's
 too
  fast, there's no
   rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not
 urban
  enough. House is too
   gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I
 was
  waiting to get paid
   from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass
 on
  I-75 and Mack. Or
   living in a refrigerator box like my man
  Jean-Michel Basquiat. 
  
  This is something that really bothers me. 
 Although
  I am white (or
  caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural
  diversity and a strong
  black influence are what make Detroits music
 excell.
   Think about this-
  how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs
 are
  black?  Without the
  black influence, or any cultural influence on
 dance
  music, the music
  becomes bland, boring, and lame.  
  
  One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans
  think that techno or
  electronic music in general is a European thing. 
  The mainstream music
  industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier
  product of dance music
  to a white audience.  Its amazing how well this
  works, for even when you
  have an alleged underground rave scene which has
  grown nationwide, yet 
  still attracts a largely white suburban audience-
  despite the fact that
  the music originated in Black communities, and
  despite the fact that
  ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan
  PLUR.  Market
  segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping
  are very sucessful tools
  used by the media coroporations.  
  
  To be able to go agianst the current black
 musician
  stereotype is VERY
  difficult.  The media has burned in the minds of
  America's youth that
  black culture is all about chillin in the
 ghetto,
  and sex.  A lot of
  these racist stereotypes have been around for
  hundreds of years.  The
  current pimp stereotype of a black man is very
  insulting and dangerous
  as it is reminicent of the old stereotype of black
  men as sexual
  preditors.  It was this stereotype that slowed the
  growth of early rock
  and roll, as parents were scared that thier young,
  teenage daughters were 
  idolizing Black men.  I recall Mos Def once saying
  that in the media,
  whenever you see a white pimp they are always
  running legal businesses,
  and they are always referred to as businessmen
  with a very professional
  appeareance. Black pimps however are always
  fitting the same stereotype,
  and are often linked with sexual violence.  
  
  Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this
  forever.  It just scares me
  that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as
  rock, r'n'b, etc.  It is
  already heading that way with trance.  
  
  -christos
  
  
 

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Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread 101 101
One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans
think that techno or electronic music in general is
a European thing. 

There's a lot of truth to that though. Many of the
early technoists borrowed(or stole) heavilly from the
german or european sound. No denying that. 

 The mainstream music
 industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier
 product of dance music
 to a white audience. 

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goa... was [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread Nick Walsh
Goa is related to heavy metal music and gets it's
sound from that... It doesn't have much to do with
previous forms of electronic music (ie detroit
influenced) at all...

Nick (Dj Pacific:)
--- mee-thod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  
  Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little
 trippiness into the music??  
  I personally would love to see something like
 goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in
 Detroit techno.  I've heard hints of it in a few
 things and its been quite fun. 
 
 i think a lot of the earlier stuff.. i dunno... that
 UR stuff, has
 elements that i can see 'goa' borrowed from in later
 years and
 focussed on. Personally, i think that without the
 other sounds to balance
 it the music of 'goa' is quite duo-dimensional and
 ultimately
 unfulfilling.
 
  emma
  mee-thod
 -it's in the way that you groove it-
 
 

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Nazis [Was Re: [313] not black enough...]

2000-12-11 Thread Phonopsia
-Original Message-
From: Nick Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: christos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough...


snip

You like what you like regardless of
it's origins unless you're a nazi or a
hypocrite... 

Where's Sean Deason when you need him? It's happened again! 

In his absence, I hearby proclaim this thread DEAD! 

Tristan
==
PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102
FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger

Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. 
I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. 
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Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread Williams, Howard
the nazis have been mentioned. this thread is now officially dead ;)

h

ps i think that some of this is kind of interesting, in fairness.

pps new Surgeon - Midnight Club Tracks, excellent. 


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:40:26 -0800 (PST)
To: christos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Walsh?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough...
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the same
sh*t again and again week after f**king week I
thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I
realise that non of these discussions ever reach a
conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming about
the same old b*ll*cks...

Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I
don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno
either because I'm not biased and neither are most
ordinary people. You like what you like regardless of
it's origins unless you're a nazi or a
hypocrite... 

Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the subscribers
to this list... No wonder so many heads have
unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they just
wanna moan about the same old sh*t...

I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this
subject again...

out,
Nick (Dj Pacific:)


Re: [313] goa... was [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread Patrick Galvin Kasarski
   I personally would love to see something like
  goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in
  Detroit techno.  I've heard hints of it in a few
  things and its been quite fun. 

this sounds interesting.. can you give some examples?



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-11 Thread Glyph1001

In a message dated 12/11/00 7:40:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I

don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno

either because I'm not biased and neither are most

ordinary people.

It is not about the colour of music but more like the
flavor.

I myself listen to all sorts of music...even the oldies,
but I choose to give the black culture alot of credit
for the music that we have.  Furthermore, I believe
that blacks created all music with the exception of
Classical music.  Look at Blues...it begat Bluegrass,
Rock n' Roll...then you have Jazz to Raggae, etc.
All this stuff influenced alot of white artists which in turn
did their own thing with it and its all good.  All I'm sayin'
is just give props where props are due...can't we all
at least do that???  To me that is being unbiased. Its not
just listening but appreciating where something comes
from.

Peace out,

G l y p h


Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-11 Thread Fiveorange
when I say rhythm I 'm talking about rhythm as a focal point versus melody.


That is an African musical concept. And if it's Latino influenced that's 
still African.
Where do you think they get their stuff from???


Rhythim is Rhythim,
Five


Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-10 Thread Danny Wolfers
  Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it
  becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely
  moving towards that.

  Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music??

Trippiness is like communism an evil thing and should not be in your
beautifull american music., If you start with a little trippiness in music
it doesn't take a while before all beauty of music is gone! You'll get good
producers saying: Ah..we must be trippy..well hmm...lets get rid of all
that melody and musical coherence and just throw in f*ckin filtered pads and
this tibetian chant everywhere..oh..wait a minute...why not put a DOLPHIN
noise in the track, that is trippy man ill just keep pressing this one key
oh...yeah...groovey..man

History has teached us that trippyness is the end of everything...look at
the hippies, lazy f*cks who haven't achieved anything, except putting
civlized society back ten years. If trippynis becomes involved in art it
becomes crap.
A good musician/producer should be like Charles Bronson not like Shaggy from
Scooby doo!




Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-10 Thread c c


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:15:03 EST
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough...
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org

the problem isnt the type of drugs--its the kids using them.  give the same 
16 yr old acid...they will still create the same problems they do on K or 
anything else.  the older you get, the more responsible you get. yes, there r 
some (very few) exceptions.


true enough. the drugs don't suddenly improve the character of the person 
taking them, but I still think that certain drugs lend themselves to, if 
nothing else, to an atmosphere more conducive to creatve moments.

yeah, some fools are still fools, regardless of how much you expand their 
consciousness, be it through music or drugs.

cc


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Before you buy.




Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-10 Thread c c


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:58:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: c c [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc: 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough...

On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, c c wrote:

 From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it
 becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely
 moving towards that.

 Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music??  

Nothing...unless you're not into drugs.
 


you don't need to be into drugs to appreciate some out of left field musical 
inventiveness.

don't need to be into drugs to appreciate severed heads, cabaret voltaire, 
model 500, kenny larkin, shawn rudimen, etc...

 I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and
 experimentation explored in Detroit techno.  I've heard hints of it in
 a few things and its been quite fun.

It'd be interesting to see the effect that's for surebut it runs
counter to what I think of when I think of the music.
 


what do you think of that it would run counter to?


 And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it
 came from the black community would make it even more interesting.
 Change the rhythms on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the
 makings of inner city psy-techno.

Could be...but I'm just coming from a different mindset.
 
 besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some
 freaky, groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the
 next bump.  Since the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not
 pick a more creative poison?

This is the central question though.  WHY are drugs unavoidable?  I
could've missed something...but drugs weren't a big part of the scene I
participated in...with the exception of weed maybe, and that wasn't done
in the clubs, but either before or after..


i got into music and going out LONG before I even thought about trying drugs, 
yet I knew people who were into it.

for a number of people the music is secondary and the drugs and primary. they 
happen to be the one's who get noticed more freqently becuase they more 
obviously can't get a grip

for many people, the drugs can be used to simply enhance the music.  like whip 
cream on your hot chocolate.  i personally LOVE having a good toke and then 
going to hear my favorite music at a club, though i go sober and remain so more 
often than not and enjoy the music nonetheless.

having a shot of tequila or vodka at the club can be used to the same end, but 
few people bother to comment on that type of drug use.

either way, drugs (including alcohol) and music always seem to keep close 
company, in every scene, like it or not.

cc


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Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-10 Thread c c


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 01:05:49 +0100
From: Danny Wolfers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough...

  Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it
  becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely
  moving towards that.

  Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music??

Trippiness is like communism an evil thing and should not be in your
beautifull american music., If you start with a little trippiness in music
it doesn't take a while before all beauty of music is gone! You'll get good
producers saying: Ah..we must be trippy..well hmm...lets get rid of all
that melody and musical coherence and just throw in f*ckin filtered pads and
this tibetian chant everywhere..oh..wait a minute...why not put a DOLPHIN
noise in the track, that is trippy man ill just keep pressing this one key
oh...yeah...groovey..man



i do hope you're kidding here.

trippy is not in opposition to melody.  trippy isn't necessarily gratuitous 
noise thrown in.

no matter what, there will always be some producer whose line of thinking is, 
we must be X, so we need to do this, instead of producing something 
creatively without worrying about what genre it will fall into before it is 
even created.

For me, at least, trippy is when the music is really layered and complex and 
the activity in the mix will change at unexpected times.  Music where you 
really don't know what will come next.  a health element of surprise and the 
less obvious the better.

Maybe the rhythms will shift suddenly, or the ambience will starting morphing 
into something without regard for what the kick drum happens to be doing. Or 
where the minimal repetitions start affecting your perception of what is 
happening.

some of Jeff Mills' earlier tracks really distort my perception of time (no 
drugs needed). Or the way kenny larkin's stuff will have lots of layering where 
each seems to go its own way, yet the music is cohesive. even terrence dixon's 
CD has some very fun, almost oblique moments.

Atom Heart is the perfect example of trippy and cohesive without being 
gratuitous, but I guess he isn't Detroit enough...



History has teached us that trippyness is the end of everything...look at
the hippies, lazy f*cks who haven't achieved anything, except putting
civlized society back ten years. If trippynis becomes involved in art it
becomes crap.


dearie!  i guess where's not in kansas anymore!!

cc


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Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-10 Thread stephen
What people mean by that statement is the original techno sound was
pioneered by Detroit dance producers like Juan Atkins in the mid to late
80's before that he was releasing electro tracks as Cybotron.
Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit on Ten was the groundbreaking
compilation that made the term popular.
The first techno records can be credited to Juan Atkins, like electro
techno was basically a style of dance music that originated from the
drum machine and synthesizer sounds of the 80's fusing the older
futuristic electro sounds of Cybotron with jackin chicago house rhythms.

For example I got into dance music in the late 80's as a kid and people
didn't call Ministry or Depeche Mode or bad new wave/ industrial dance
music (that was played in white clubs) like Dead or Alive or Kon Kan
techno even though some of the Euro stuff like E2E4 or Kraftwerk may
have been an influence.
The early house and techno of the eighties was primarily a Chicago,
Detroit and New York thing until it had its influence on rave culture,
it wasn't accepted by African Americans on the West coast or South.
Techno almost broke in the states in the early 90's but it was never
accepted by the masses because white kids were into grunge rock, the
rave scene was to small and black radio didn't want anything to do with
it unless it was hip hop - rnb.
It was only until they figure out away to market the sound as
electronica with the chart success of the Prodigy, they did enjoy some
minor success with cheesy formulated dance acts like Technotronic, Snap,
2 unlimited on pop radio also played in sports arenas, Pro Cuts, Fitness
clubs.

trance is pretty much formulated trendy pop music for young suburban
raver crowed who like to take ectsacy.
hope this helps clarify things,
stephen.

I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit
very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the
blue
and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly
Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of
something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from

other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks
invented music

Fahd Al Noor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Albuquerque, NM



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-10 Thread Kyle J Dupuy

snip
 If trippynis becomes involved in art it becomes crap.
snip

just don't say this to any fans of dali, picasso, escher, van gogh, the
doors, pink floyd etc etc etc etc etc.

kyle 



Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-10 Thread aziza vasco


TOO BLACK TOO STRONG!
:)

aziza

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:27:19 EST

when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African 
diaspora

and African musical influences.


Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the 
begginning.
It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm instead 
of

an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too much
either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the
sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this
distinction.

No one ever said that Detroit pioneers are and were not influenced by other
kinds of music. Yes Germany plays a big role because of Kraftwerk. But Juan
Atkins said the Kraftwerk told him their biggest influence is James Brown ( 
a

Black American rhythm master).

I want to recall Lester Kenyatta's post about the first people coming from
Africa and how strong their cultural contributions have been on the world.

No one is saying that music springs up out of nowhere, Kodwo Eshun says 
that

music is its own genesis but I can't agree with that because that sounds
ahistorical but what I am saying is that this thing called Detroit Techno
comes from Detroit.
And these men and women are the pioneers of this music and that has 
something
to do with the people who picked up on it later; they were listening to 
these

folks.

I still don't quite understand this disbelief over Blacks inventing music
because I think that, that is a decontextualized statement.

Five

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Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-10 Thread Fahd Al Noor

I dont quite understand what you mean by American radio and its racist
programming, lets see, if I tune into an American rap station and all they
play is rap, I must say..they are racist because they are not playing
Swedish techno and some times I just wish they werent racist and played some
Joel Mull or Adam Beyer tunes instead of playing that rap junk, I feel
oppressed now! Not white enough!

Fahd Al Noor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Albuquerque, NM










On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:27:19 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African
diaspora 
  and African musical influences.
  
  
  Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the
begginning. 
  It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm
instead of 
  an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too
much 
  either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the

  sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this 
  distinction.





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Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-10 Thread Fiveorange
American radio just like everything in America is divided into White and 
Black.

Detroit Techno is not considered Black because it is not embraced by Vibe 
magazine or programmed onto R  B station formats. 


Rock and Roll is seen as a white music even though its innovators are 
Black ;Chuck Berry, Ike Turner, and others. So that a Black rock, funk 
and roll band like Fishbone (all Black band) can not be sold to the public 
by most marketing departments at major labels because they don't know how to 
sell this Black band doing white music.

Wynton Marsalis (Black) is a superb Classical musician and a mediocre jazz 
player. When he won grammies one year for the best jazz and classical albums 
the people who run Jazz at Lincoln Center (New York CIty Jazz Program) gave 
him charge over that program. The implication is that they would rather have 
a Black man in charge of Black music like jazz instead of a White music 
like classical.


Comprendre
Five


Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-09 Thread Rachael Ann Stiegel

Hehehe this reminds me of when I first started listening to techno and for
some strange reason I thought Jeff Mills was white

Someone brought up Richie Hawtin and it not mattering that he is white
because he is an incredible producer. I wonder if so many people would
ahve had a problem with Plus 8 using The Future Sound of Detroit as
their logo if Richie were black.

-Rachael

 On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jayson B.
wrote:

 
 To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY
 difficult.  The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that
 black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex.
 
 
 I digress.  The media is not the only culprit in this stereotype.  Black men 
 themselves (and i'm not speaking for all of them), are more than helping 
 along this stereotype.  Last time i checked, noone was holding a gun to puff 
 daddy or Jay z's head to write the music they do (or sample) or the video's 
 they star in.
 
 
 
 
 I know i'm not quoting (i already deleted the quote from my message, and i'm 
 too lazy to go back) directly, but does all of this mean that white 
 producers have no credit what so ever?  Has all the techno that those crazy 
 swedes have been putting out been for nothing?  Is Richie Hawtin a terrible 
 producer because he's not black?  Have whites no real creativity when it 
 comes to dance music?
 
 I'm assuming you all answer no.  And with that, i ask you another question:  
 since trance is written dominantely by white people, does this reason alone 
 make it uncredible?
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Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
on 12/8/2000 9:24 PM, Jayson B. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Do predictability, obviousness, and sentimentality work?
 
 they work perfectly.
 
 But humor me a bit, and explain your reasons for saying sentimentality.

Sentimentality is a fairly common term in music discussion/criticism.  As
I understand it (IMHO) I'm referring to emotion that wears its heart on its
sleeve.  Lots of minor chords to denote angst and pain, without the complex
9ths, 11ths, 13ths or missing tonics that make modern music interesting, or
more complex. 

Life is complex.  I enjoy music that reflects that.

I'm not saying that 313 music is never sentimental.  But the culture of jazz
and pop music that 313 true people grow up in might just give them a head
start on complexity.

Thoughts?
--
There4IM



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-09 Thread Lester Kenyatta Spence
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, christos wrote:

 
  I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no
  rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too
  gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid
  from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or
  living in a refrigerator box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. 

I think this position may be missing a couple of things:

1. The are structural reasons why the type of music people listen to in
Detroit is NOT techno/house...

2. When techno became rave and came back from overseas, the sound changed.

Blaming black people--actually YOUNG black peoplebecause there are
still a core group of house/techno heads in the 25-40 demographic...for
either #1 or #2 doesn't make much sense to me.  Given that techno is a
universal underground phenomenon rather than one particular to black
audiencesit makes SENSE that whites buy the music more than blacks do.
There are more OF them to.  The same with hiphop.
 
 This is something that really bothers me.  Although I am white (or
 caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural diversity and a strong
 black influence are what make Detroits music excell.  Think about this-
 how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs are black?  Without the
 black influence, or any cultural influence on dance music, the music
 becomes bland, boring, and lame.  

Bland,boring, and lame are all subjective judgementsbut I feel you.
It's at least partly because of how I came into the music that the term
happy hardcore dj ITSELF conjurs a painful image in my head.

 One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans think that techno or
 electronic music in general is a European thing.  The mainstream music
 industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier product of dance music
 to a white audience.  Its amazing how well this works, for even when you
 have an alleged underground rave scene which has grown nationwide, yet 
 still attracts a largely white suburban audience- despite the fact that
 the music originated in Black communities, and despite the fact that
 ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan PLUR.  Market
 segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping are very sucessful tools
 used by the media coroporations.  

But they are also the tools of any underground right?  It's just that the
audience choice in this particular case ends up alienating the segment
that for a long time represented the genre's core audience. 

 Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this forever.  It just scares me
 that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as rock, r'n'b, etc.  It is
 already heading that way with trance.  

Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes
synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely moving towards
that.


peace
lks



Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-09 Thread Fahd Al Noor

I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit
very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue
and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly
Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of
something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from
other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks
invented music

Fahd Al Noor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Albuquerque, NM




On Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:26:08 -, Jonny McIntosh wrote:

   I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no
rappin,
   mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too gay. I
   have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid from
negroes,
   I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or living in a
  refrigerator
   box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. Cats like Shake had a complex
about
   no blacks buying our music (he is now over it) and me and Cornelius
have
   had a running debate about it. It has to become ghettotech (or
OutKast's
   Bombs Over Bagdad) for black folks to be even remotely interested. No
   thanks.

 
  It's a problem of perception, of course. And that problem is an
historical
  fact, rather than anything intrinsic (Jungle is faster, 2 Step Garage
isn't
  seen as a problem, but it's just sped up NJ garage). It's dependent on
what
  you know. In the case of techno, unlike say hip hop, it's been sold back
to
  the States by Europe as something different - I mean, Fatboy Slim as
  techno? - just as RB was sold back as the Rolling Stones. The same
  difference of perception exists in Europe. I am sure most people on this
  list would acknowledge that, racial idealism aside, techno is a black
  american art form. A lot people in the UK asked about techno would think
  it's a Belgian/Dutch thing, though. 2 Unlimited have a lot to answer for.
  The point is, it's a perception based upon what you know.
  
  People often think race should be left out of techno; but not to the
extent
  that what Techno really is becomes a historical curiosity. People who
know
  should say, hold the f**k on, this sh*t isn't Techno, or what Techno's
  about, Techno came from Detroit and it's made by these here people and it
  still is. And the same goes for House and it's black/gay background, or
any
  music for that matter. Don't let people rewrite history through ignorance
or
  apathy, because they will. It deserves to be treated as hip hop and jazz
are
  treated, which is with a greater degree of historical accuracy (or at
least,
  in the negative, without historical revsionism: Simon Reynolds, take
note).





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Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-09 Thread JL Jones
- Original Message -
From: Fahd Al Noor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jonny McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 313@hyperreal.org
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [313] not black enough



 I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit
 very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue
 and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly
 Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of
 something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from
 other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks
 invented music


I don't think the posts are trying to imply that blacks 'invented' music

i think what some are trying to relate and im sure its been said before that
it has been a sad part of american (usa) history that forms of expression
valid in their own right have often been co-opted by the mainstream
without credit given to their origins...
techno, like most other forms of music is the result of a convergence
of other styles.  that convergence taking place in many minds
thru the work of the innovators at the time that they first started
doing their thing...

and still in the face of the mainstreaming of techno (well electronica)
that the people that did stuff in the beginning still do not get the
proper credit they deserve

but then again - neither do their infuences...

Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
amiga lives!
--



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-09 Thread c c


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:09:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes 
synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely moving towards 
that.


Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music??  

I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and 
experimentation explored in Detroit techno.  I've heard hints of it in a few 
things and its been quite fun. 

And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it came from 
the black community would make it even more interesting. Change the rhythms 
on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the makings of inner city 
psy-techno.

besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some freaky, 
groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the next bump.  Since 
the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not pick a more creative poison?

cc


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Before you buy.




Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-09 Thread Lester Kenyatta Spence
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, c c wrote:

 From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it
 becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene.  We're definitely
 moving towards that.

 Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music??  

Nothing...unless you're not into drugs.
 
 I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and
 experimentation explored in Detroit techno.  I've heard hints of it in
 a few things and its been quite fun.

It'd be interesting to see the effect that's for surebut it runs
counter to what I think of when I think of the music.
 
 And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it
 came from the black community would make it even more interesting.
 Change the rhythms on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the
 makings of inner city psy-techno.

Could be...but I'm just coming from a different mindset.
 
 besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some
 freaky, groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the
 next bump.  Since the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not
 pick a more creative poison?

This is the central question though.  WHY are drugs unavoidable?  I
could've missed something...but drugs weren't a big part of the scene I
participated in...with the exception of weed maybe, and that wasn't done
in the clubs, but either before or after..


peace
lks



Re: [313] not black enough

2000-12-09 Thread Lester Kenyatta Spence
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Fahd Al Noor wrote:

 
 I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit
 very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue
 and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly
 Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of
 something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from
 other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks
 invented music

Sarcastic--but accurate--response #1:

Well...given that all people come from Africa, and that the first
spiritual conceptions came from Africa as well...it wouldn't be absurd to
argue that music was first created in Africaand as the phenotype of
the Central African is what we think of as black...then YES we ARE
saying that blacks invented music.


Sarcastic--but accurate--response #2:

Music styles don't exist in and of themselves, but in specific times and
places.  Jazz for example has roots in both Africa AND America...but it is
appropriate to say that the artform originated in America.  Techno has
roots in both America and Germany...but given that the term used to
describe the artform comes from Juan Atkins, who also created music that
can be subsumed under that labelthen we can say the following:

We're just saying they invented TECHNO.


;)



Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-09 Thread TekHitsHarder
the problem isnt the type of drugs--its the kids using them.  give the same 
16 yr old acid...they will still create the same problems they do on K or 
anything else.  the older you get, the more responsible you get. yes, there r 
some (very few) exceptions.

mike


Re: [313] not black enough...

2000-12-08 Thread Jayson B.



To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY
difficult.  The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that
black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex.



I digress.  The media is not the only culprit in this stereotype.  Black men 
themselves (and i'm not speaking for all of them), are more than helping 
along this stereotype.  Last time i checked, noone was holding a gun to puff 
daddy or Jay z's head to write the music they do (or sample) or the video's 
they star in.





I know i'm not quoting (i already deleted the quote from my message, and i'm 
too lazy to go back) directly, but does all of this mean that white 
producers have no credit what so ever?  Has all the techno that those crazy 
swedes have been putting out been for nothing?  Is Richie Hawtin a terrible 
producer because he's not black?  Have whites no real creativity when it 
comes to dance music?


I'm assuming you all answer no.  And with that, i ask you another question:  
since trance is written dominantely by white people, does this reason alone 
make it uncredible?

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