Re: [313] not black enough
I don't think traditional African musical concepts on rhythm was as big of an influence on early house and techno as you may think. The rhythm arrangements had more to do with 16 step drum machine sequencer of the Roland XOX boxes. I remember talking to Adonis on the phone in the mid 90's when he was with Godfathers productions, I don't know the man personally but I was just calling about mix tapes and he started talking about the early house sound and said the Roland TR808 started it all, If you look at Cybotron or Africa Bambaataa it was the 808. I know Derrick May used lots of 727 but I hear more of a latin influence, you seem to forget the impotence latino's had on early electro and house. There was definitely a black or African American quality to it though, I remember n the late 80's the white club crowed in the US didn't like Chicago house or Detroit techno because it was too black or disco. Around 89 you started hearing house tracks from overseas like pump up the volume or children of the revolution being played in New Wave clubs. Black clubs in in the South didn't like house music because it was too disco or gay, they played Rap, P-Funk and Freestyle, you occasionally would hear electro tracks like Clear by Cybotron or Planet Rock being mixed in a freestyle set. You have to remember that house music was underground disco of the 80's, it wasn't excepted by a white crowed in the US until rave culture and it wasn't really excepted by black culture unless you were from Chicago. Actually I remember some of the first techno that was being accepted by the alternative (new wave/industrial) white crowed was 808 State and Cybersonik in 1990. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African diaspora and African musical influences. Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the begginning. It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm instead of an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too much either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this distinction. No one ever said that Detroit pioneers are and were not influenced by other kinds of music. Yes Germany plays a big role because of Kraftwerk. But Juan Atkins said the Kraftwerk told him their biggest influence is James Brown ( a Black American rhythm master). I want to recall Lester Kenyatta's post about the first people coming from Africa and how strong their cultural contributions have been on the world. No one is saying that music springs up out of nowhere, Kodwo Eshun says that music is its own genesis but I can't agree with that because that sounds ahistorical but what I am saying is that this thing called Detroit Techno comes from Detroit. And these men and women are the pioneers of this music and that has something to do with the people who picked up on it later; they were listening to these folks. I still don't quite understand this disbelief over Blacks inventing music because I think that, that is a decontextualized statement. Five
Re: [313] not black enough...
For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the same sh*t again and again week after f**king week I thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I realise that non of these discussions ever reach a conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming about the same old b*ll*cks... Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno either because I'm not biased and neither are most ordinary people. You like what you like regardless of it's origins unless you're a nazi or a hypocrite... Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the subscribers to this list... No wonder so many heads have unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they just wanna moan about the same old sh*t... I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this subject again... out, Nick (Dj Pacific:) --- christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or living in a refrigerator box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. This is something that really bothers me. Although I am white (or caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural diversity and a strong black influence are what make Detroits music excell. Think about this- how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs are black? Without the black influence, or any cultural influence on dance music, the music becomes bland, boring, and lame. One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans think that techno or electronic music in general is a European thing. The mainstream music industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier product of dance music to a white audience. Its amazing how well this works, for even when you have an alleged underground rave scene which has grown nationwide, yet still attracts a largely white suburban audience- despite the fact that the music originated in Black communities, and despite the fact that ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan PLUR. Market segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping are very sucessful tools used by the media coroporations. To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY difficult. The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex. A lot of these racist stereotypes have been around for hundreds of years. The current pimp stereotype of a black man is very insulting and dangerous as it is reminicent of the old stereotype of black men as sexual preditors. It was this stereotype that slowed the growth of early rock and roll, as parents were scared that thier young, teenage daughters were idolizing Black men. I recall Mos Def once saying that in the media, whenever you see a white pimp they are always running legal businesses, and they are always referred to as businessmen with a very professional appeareance. Black pimps however are always fitting the same stereotype, and are often linked with sexual violence. Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this forever. It just scares me that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as rock, r'n'b, etc. It is already heading that way with trance. -christos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [313] not black enough...
here here --- Nick Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the same sh*t again and again week after f**king week I thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I realise that non of these discussions ever reach a conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming about the same old b*ll*cks... Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno either because I'm not biased and neither are most ordinary people. You like what you like regardless of it's origins unless you're a nazi or a hypocrite... Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the subscribers to this list... No wonder so many heads have unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they just wanna moan about the same old sh*t... I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this subject again... out, Nick (Dj Pacific:) --- christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or living in a refrigerator box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. This is something that really bothers me. Although I am white (or caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural diversity and a strong black influence are what make Detroits music excell. Think about this- how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs are black? Without the black influence, or any cultural influence on dance music, the music becomes bland, boring, and lame. One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans think that techno or electronic music in general is a European thing. The mainstream music industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier product of dance music to a white audience. Its amazing how well this works, for even when you have an alleged underground rave scene which has grown nationwide, yet still attracts a largely white suburban audience- despite the fact that the music originated in Black communities, and despite the fact that ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan PLUR. Market segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping are very sucessful tools used by the media coroporations. To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY difficult. The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex. A lot of these racist stereotypes have been around for hundreds of years. The current pimp stereotype of a black man is very insulting and dangerous as it is reminicent of the old stereotype of black men as sexual preditors. It was this stereotype that slowed the growth of early rock and roll, as parents were scared that thier young, teenage daughters were idolizing Black men. I recall Mos Def once saying that in the media, whenever you see a white pimp they are always running legal businesses, and they are always referred to as businessmen with a very professional appeareance. Black pimps however are always fitting the same stereotype, and are often linked with sexual violence. Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this forever. It just scares me that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as rock, r'n'b, etc. It is already heading that way with trance. -christos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [313] not black enough...
One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans think that techno or electronic music in general is a European thing. There's a lot of truth to that though. Many of the early technoists borrowed(or stole) heavilly from the german or european sound. No denying that. The mainstream music industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier product of dance music to a white audience. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
goa... was [313] not black enough...
Goa is related to heavy metal music and gets it's sound from that... It doesn't have much to do with previous forms of electronic music (ie detroit influenced) at all... Nick (Dj Pacific:) --- mee-thod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in Detroit techno. I've heard hints of it in a few things and its been quite fun. i think a lot of the earlier stuff.. i dunno... that UR stuff, has elements that i can see 'goa' borrowed from in later years and focussed on. Personally, i think that without the other sounds to balance it the music of 'goa' is quite duo-dimensional and ultimately unfulfilling. emma mee-thod -it's in the way that you groove it- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Nazis [Was Re: [313] not black enough...]
-Original Message- From: Nick Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [313] not black enough... snip You like what you like regardless of it's origins unless you're a nazi or a hypocrite... Where's Sean Deason when you need him? It's happened again! In his absence, I hearby proclaim this thread DEAD! Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [313] not black enough...
the nazis have been mentioned. this thread is now officially dead ;) h ps i think that some of this is kind of interesting, in fairness. pps new Surgeon - Midnight Club Tracks, excellent. Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:40:26 -0800 (PST) To: christos [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Walsh?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] not black enough... Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For f**ks sake Why do we have to go over the same sh*t again and again week after f**king week I thought we had come to some sort of conclusion but I realise that non of these discussions ever reach a conclusion and ppl continue dissing and flamming about the same old b*ll*cks... Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno either because I'm not biased and neither are most ordinary people. You like what you like regardless of it's origins unless you're a nazi or a hypocrite... Hypocrites seem to make up the bulk of the subscribers to this list... No wonder so many heads have unsubbed... No one wants to find an answer, they just wanna moan about the same old sh*t... I'm gonna give it 2 months and we'll be back on this subject again... out, Nick (Dj Pacific:)
Re: [313] goa... was [313] not black enough...
I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in Detroit techno. I've heard hints of it in a few things and its been quite fun. this sounds interesting.. can you give some examples?
Re: [313] not black enough...
In a message dated 12/11/00 7:40:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who gives a f**k about the colour of the music? I don't... I don't exclusively listen to detroit techno either because I'm not biased and neither are most ordinary people. It is not about the colour of music but more like the flavor. I myself listen to all sorts of music...even the oldies, but I choose to give the black culture alot of credit for the music that we have. Furthermore, I believe that blacks created all music with the exception of Classical music. Look at Blues...it begat Bluegrass, Rock n' Roll...then you have Jazz to Raggae, etc. All this stuff influenced alot of white artists which in turn did their own thing with it and its all good. All I'm sayin' is just give props where props are due...can't we all at least do that??? To me that is being unbiased. Its not just listening but appreciating where something comes from. Peace out, G l y p h
Re: [313] not black enough
when I say rhythm I 'm talking about rhythm as a focal point versus melody. That is an African musical concept. And if it's Latino influenced that's still African. Where do you think they get their stuff from??? Rhythim is Rhythim, Five
Re: [313] not black enough...
Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? Trippiness is like communism an evil thing and should not be in your beautifull american music., If you start with a little trippiness in music it doesn't take a while before all beauty of music is gone! You'll get good producers saying: Ah..we must be trippy..well hmm...lets get rid of all that melody and musical coherence and just throw in f*ckin filtered pads and this tibetian chant everywhere..oh..wait a minute...why not put a DOLPHIN noise in the track, that is trippy man ill just keep pressing this one key oh...yeah...groovey..man History has teached us that trippyness is the end of everything...look at the hippies, lazy f*cks who haven't achieved anything, except putting civlized society back ten years. If trippynis becomes involved in art it becomes crap. A good musician/producer should be like Charles Bronson not like Shaggy from Scooby doo!
Re: [313] not black enough...
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:15:03 EST Subject: Re: [313] not black enough... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org the problem isnt the type of drugs--its the kids using them. give the same 16 yr old acid...they will still create the same problems they do on K or anything else. the older you get, the more responsible you get. yes, there r some (very few) exceptions. true enough. the drugs don't suddenly improve the character of the person taking them, but I still think that certain drugs lend themselves to, if nothing else, to an atmosphere more conducive to creatve moments. yeah, some fools are still fools, regardless of how much you expand their consciousness, be it through music or drugs. cc --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy.
Re: [313] not black enough...
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:58:03 -0500 (EST) From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: c c [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] not black enough... On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, c c wrote: From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? Nothing...unless you're not into drugs. you don't need to be into drugs to appreciate some out of left field musical inventiveness. don't need to be into drugs to appreciate severed heads, cabaret voltaire, model 500, kenny larkin, shawn rudimen, etc... I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in Detroit techno. I've heard hints of it in a few things and its been quite fun. It'd be interesting to see the effect that's for surebut it runs counter to what I think of when I think of the music. what do you think of that it would run counter to? And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it came from the black community would make it even more interesting. Change the rhythms on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the makings of inner city psy-techno. Could be...but I'm just coming from a different mindset. besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some freaky, groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the next bump. Since the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not pick a more creative poison? This is the central question though. WHY are drugs unavoidable? I could've missed something...but drugs weren't a big part of the scene I participated in...with the exception of weed maybe, and that wasn't done in the clubs, but either before or after.. i got into music and going out LONG before I even thought about trying drugs, yet I knew people who were into it. for a number of people the music is secondary and the drugs and primary. they happen to be the one's who get noticed more freqently becuase they more obviously can't get a grip for many people, the drugs can be used to simply enhance the music. like whip cream on your hot chocolate. i personally LOVE having a good toke and then going to hear my favorite music at a club, though i go sober and remain so more often than not and enjoy the music nonetheless. having a shot of tequila or vodka at the club can be used to the same end, but few people bother to comment on that type of drug use. either way, drugs (including alcohol) and music always seem to keep close company, in every scene, like it or not. cc --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy.
Re: [313] not black enough...
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 01:05:49 +0100 From: Danny Wolfers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] not black enough... Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? Trippiness is like communism an evil thing and should not be in your beautifull american music., If you start with a little trippiness in music it doesn't take a while before all beauty of music is gone! You'll get good producers saying: Ah..we must be trippy..well hmm...lets get rid of all that melody and musical coherence and just throw in f*ckin filtered pads and this tibetian chant everywhere..oh..wait a minute...why not put a DOLPHIN noise in the track, that is trippy man ill just keep pressing this one key oh...yeah...groovey..man i do hope you're kidding here. trippy is not in opposition to melody. trippy isn't necessarily gratuitous noise thrown in. no matter what, there will always be some producer whose line of thinking is, we must be X, so we need to do this, instead of producing something creatively without worrying about what genre it will fall into before it is even created. For me, at least, trippy is when the music is really layered and complex and the activity in the mix will change at unexpected times. Music where you really don't know what will come next. a health element of surprise and the less obvious the better. Maybe the rhythms will shift suddenly, or the ambience will starting morphing into something without regard for what the kick drum happens to be doing. Or where the minimal repetitions start affecting your perception of what is happening. some of Jeff Mills' earlier tracks really distort my perception of time (no drugs needed). Or the way kenny larkin's stuff will have lots of layering where each seems to go its own way, yet the music is cohesive. even terrence dixon's CD has some very fun, almost oblique moments. Atom Heart is the perfect example of trippy and cohesive without being gratuitous, but I guess he isn't Detroit enough... History has teached us that trippyness is the end of everything...look at the hippies, lazy f*cks who haven't achieved anything, except putting civlized society back ten years. If trippynis becomes involved in art it becomes crap. dearie! i guess where's not in kansas anymore!! cc --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy.
Re: [313] not black enough
What people mean by that statement is the original techno sound was pioneered by Detroit dance producers like Juan Atkins in the mid to late 80's before that he was releasing electro tracks as Cybotron. Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit on Ten was the groundbreaking compilation that made the term popular. The first techno records can be credited to Juan Atkins, like electro techno was basically a style of dance music that originated from the drum machine and synthesizer sounds of the 80's fusing the older futuristic electro sounds of Cybotron with jackin chicago house rhythms. For example I got into dance music in the late 80's as a kid and people didn't call Ministry or Depeche Mode or bad new wave/ industrial dance music (that was played in white clubs) like Dead or Alive or Kon Kan techno even though some of the Euro stuff like E2E4 or Kraftwerk may have been an influence. The early house and techno of the eighties was primarily a Chicago, Detroit and New York thing until it had its influence on rave culture, it wasn't accepted by African Americans on the West coast or South. Techno almost broke in the states in the early 90's but it was never accepted by the masses because white kids were into grunge rock, the rave scene was to small and black radio didn't want anything to do with it unless it was hip hop - rnb. It was only until they figure out away to market the sound as electronica with the chart success of the Prodigy, they did enjoy some minor success with cheesy formulated dance acts like Technotronic, Snap, 2 unlimited on pop radio also played in sports arenas, Pro Cuts, Fitness clubs. trance is pretty much formulated trendy pop music for young suburban raver crowed who like to take ectsacy. hope this helps clarify things, stephen. I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks invented music Fahd Al Noor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Albuquerque, NM
Re: [313] not black enough...
snip If trippynis becomes involved in art it becomes crap. snip just don't say this to any fans of dali, picasso, escher, van gogh, the doors, pink floyd etc etc etc etc etc. kyle
Re: [313] not black enough
TOO BLACK TOO STRONG! :) aziza From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] not black enough Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:27:19 EST when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African diaspora and African musical influences. Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the begginning. It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm instead of an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too much either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this distinction. No one ever said that Detroit pioneers are and were not influenced by other kinds of music. Yes Germany plays a big role because of Kraftwerk. But Juan Atkins said the Kraftwerk told him their biggest influence is James Brown ( a Black American rhythm master). I want to recall Lester Kenyatta's post about the first people coming from Africa and how strong their cultural contributions have been on the world. No one is saying that music springs up out of nowhere, Kodwo Eshun says that music is its own genesis but I can't agree with that because that sounds ahistorical but what I am saying is that this thing called Detroit Techno comes from Detroit. And these men and women are the pioneers of this music and that has something to do with the people who picked up on it later; they were listening to these folks. I still don't quite understand this disbelief over Blacks inventing music because I think that, that is a decontextualized statement. Five - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] not black enough
I dont quite understand what you mean by American radio and its racist programming, lets see, if I tune into an American rap station and all they play is rap, I must say..they are racist because they are not playing Swedish techno and some times I just wish they werent racist and played some Joel Mull or Adam Beyer tunes instead of playing that rap junk, I feel oppressed now! Not white enough! Fahd Al Noor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Albuquerque, NM On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:27:19 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: when I use the term Black I am referring to people of the African diaspora and African musical influences. Detroit Techno is not Black because Black people made it in the begginning. It is Black because it utilizes African musical concepts of rhythm instead of an European emphasis on melody. But I'm not going to stick to that too much either because I'm sure that Africans utilize melody as well. But for the sake of American radio and its racist programming I want to make this distinction. ___ Send a cool gift with your E-Card
Re: [313] not black enough
American radio just like everything in America is divided into White and Black. Detroit Techno is not considered Black because it is not embraced by Vibe magazine or programmed onto R B station formats. Rock and Roll is seen as a white music even though its innovators are Black ;Chuck Berry, Ike Turner, and others. So that a Black rock, funk and roll band like Fishbone (all Black band) can not be sold to the public by most marketing departments at major labels because they don't know how to sell this Black band doing white music. Wynton Marsalis (Black) is a superb Classical musician and a mediocre jazz player. When he won grammies one year for the best jazz and classical albums the people who run Jazz at Lincoln Center (New York CIty Jazz Program) gave him charge over that program. The implication is that they would rather have a Black man in charge of Black music like jazz instead of a White music like classical. Comprendre Five
Re: [313] not black enough
Hehehe this reminds me of when I first started listening to techno and for some strange reason I thought Jeff Mills was white Someone brought up Richie Hawtin and it not mattering that he is white because he is an incredible producer. I wonder if so many people would ahve had a problem with Plus 8 using The Future Sound of Detroit as their logo if Richie were black. -Rachael On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jayson B. wrote: To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY difficult. The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex. I digress. The media is not the only culprit in this stereotype. Black men themselves (and i'm not speaking for all of them), are more than helping along this stereotype. Last time i checked, noone was holding a gun to puff daddy or Jay z's head to write the music they do (or sample) or the video's they star in. I know i'm not quoting (i already deleted the quote from my message, and i'm too lazy to go back) directly, but does all of this mean that white producers have no credit what so ever? Has all the techno that those crazy swedes have been putting out been for nothing? Is Richie Hawtin a terrible producer because he's not black? Have whites no real creativity when it comes to dance music? I'm assuming you all answer no. And with that, i ask you another question: since trance is written dominantely by white people, does this reason alone make it uncredible? _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] not black enough...
on 12/8/2000 9:24 PM, Jayson B. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do predictability, obviousness, and sentimentality work? they work perfectly. But humor me a bit, and explain your reasons for saying sentimentality. Sentimentality is a fairly common term in music discussion/criticism. As I understand it (IMHO) I'm referring to emotion that wears its heart on its sleeve. Lots of minor chords to denote angst and pain, without the complex 9ths, 11ths, 13ths or missing tonics that make modern music interesting, or more complex. Life is complex. I enjoy music that reflects that. I'm not saying that 313 music is never sentimental. But the culture of jazz and pop music that 313 true people grow up in might just give them a head start on complexity. Thoughts? -- There4IM
Re: [313] not black enough...
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, christos wrote: I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or living in a refrigerator box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. I think this position may be missing a couple of things: 1. The are structural reasons why the type of music people listen to in Detroit is NOT techno/house... 2. When techno became rave and came back from overseas, the sound changed. Blaming black people--actually YOUNG black peoplebecause there are still a core group of house/techno heads in the 25-40 demographic...for either #1 or #2 doesn't make much sense to me. Given that techno is a universal underground phenomenon rather than one particular to black audiencesit makes SENSE that whites buy the music more than blacks do. There are more OF them to. The same with hiphop. This is something that really bothers me. Although I am white (or caucasian, or whatever) , I think that cultural diversity and a strong black influence are what make Detroits music excell. Think about this- how many cheesy trance djs or happy hardcore djs are black? Without the black influence, or any cultural influence on dance music, the music becomes bland, boring, and lame. Bland,boring, and lame are all subjective judgementsbut I feel you. It's at least partly because of how I came into the music that the term happy hardcore dj ITSELF conjurs a painful image in my head. One reason behind this, is that 90% of Americans think that techno or electronic music in general is a European thing. The mainstream music industry adapts to such a belief and markets thier product of dance music to a white audience. Its amazing how well this works, for even when you have an alleged underground rave scene which has grown nationwide, yet still attracts a largely white suburban audience- despite the fact that the music originated in Black communities, and despite the fact that ravers cling to that stupid, hypocritical slogan PLUR. Market segmentation, audience building, and stereotyping are very sucessful tools used by the media coroporations. But they are also the tools of any underground right? It's just that the audience choice in this particular case ends up alienating the segment that for a long time represented the genre's core audience. Sorry about this rant, I can go on about this forever. It just scares me that dance music MIGHT fall down the same path as rock, r'n'b, etc. It is already heading that way with trance. Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. peace lks
Re: [313] not black enough
I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks invented music Fahd Al Noor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Albuquerque, NM On Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:26:08 -, Jonny McIntosh wrote: I agree. Our music isn't black enough. It's too fast, there's no rappin, mackin and pimpin in it, it's not urban enough. House is too gay. I have stopped worrying about it. If I was waiting to get paid from negroes, I'd be living under the overpass on I-75 and Mack. Or living in a refrigerator box like my man Jean-Michel Basquiat. Cats like Shake had a complex about no blacks buying our music (he is now over it) and me and Cornelius have had a running debate about it. It has to become ghettotech (or OutKast's Bombs Over Bagdad) for black folks to be even remotely interested. No thanks. It's a problem of perception, of course. And that problem is an historical fact, rather than anything intrinsic (Jungle is faster, 2 Step Garage isn't seen as a problem, but it's just sped up NJ garage). It's dependent on what you know. In the case of techno, unlike say hip hop, it's been sold back to the States by Europe as something different - I mean, Fatboy Slim as techno? - just as RB was sold back as the Rolling Stones. The same difference of perception exists in Europe. I am sure most people on this list would acknowledge that, racial idealism aside, techno is a black american art form. A lot people in the UK asked about techno would think it's a Belgian/Dutch thing, though. 2 Unlimited have a lot to answer for. The point is, it's a perception based upon what you know. People often think race should be left out of techno; but not to the extent that what Techno really is becomes a historical curiosity. People who know should say, hold the f**k on, this sh*t isn't Techno, or what Techno's about, Techno came from Detroit and it's made by these here people and it still is. And the same goes for House and it's black/gay background, or any music for that matter. Don't let people rewrite history through ignorance or apathy, because they will. It deserves to be treated as hip hop and jazz are treated, which is with a greater degree of historical accuracy (or at least, in the negative, without historical revsionism: Simon Reynolds, take note). ___ Send a cool gift with your E-Card
Re: [313] not black enough
- Original Message - From: Fahd Al Noor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jonny McIntosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [313] not black enough I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks invented music I don't think the posts are trying to imply that blacks 'invented' music i think what some are trying to relate and im sure its been said before that it has been a sad part of american (usa) history that forms of expression valid in their own right have often been co-opted by the mainstream without credit given to their origins... techno, like most other forms of music is the result of a convergence of other styles. that convergence taking place in many minds thru the work of the innovators at the time that they first started doing their thing... and still in the face of the mainstreaming of techno (well electronica) that the people that did stuff in the beginning still do not get the proper credit they deserve but then again - neither do their infuences... Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- amiga lives! --
Re: [313] not black enough...
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:09:54 -0500 (EST) From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in Detroit techno. I've heard hints of it in a few things and its been quite fun. And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it came from the black community would make it even more interesting. Change the rhythms on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the makings of inner city psy-techno. besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some freaky, groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the next bump. Since the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not pick a more creative poison? cc --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy.
Re: [313] not black enough...
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, c c wrote: From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well...I think the biggest concern with dance music is that it becomes synonymous with the trippy drug scene. We're definitely moving towards that. Hey, what's wrong with bringing a little trippiness into the music?? Nothing...unless you're not into drugs. I personally would love to see something like goa-style trippiness and experimentation explored in Detroit techno. I've heard hints of it in a few things and its been quite fun. It'd be interesting to see the effect that's for surebut it runs counter to what I think of when I think of the music. And I think the inner city feel that would be infused into it if it came from the black community would make it even more interesting. Change the rhythms on PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' and you've got the makings of inner city psy-techno. Could be...but I'm just coming from a different mindset. besides, I'd rather be around a bunch of acidheads wigging out to some freaky, groovy music than a bunch of coke/k fiends looking for the next bump. Since the drugs are unavoidable in the scene, why not pick a more creative poison? This is the central question though. WHY are drugs unavoidable? I could've missed something...but drugs weren't a big part of the scene I participated in...with the exception of weed maybe, and that wasn't done in the clubs, but either before or after.. peace lks
Re: [313] not black enough
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Fahd Al Noor wrote: I still dont quite understand the statement Techno came from Detroit very interesting concept..how things come from a place, out of the blue and how people like to ignore everything that took place priorly Nothing comes from a place..it is originated due to the influence of something else, music genres dont come from a place, they originate from other music styles, I hope you are not trying to tell me that blacks invented music Sarcastic--but accurate--response #1: Well...given that all people come from Africa, and that the first spiritual conceptions came from Africa as well...it wouldn't be absurd to argue that music was first created in Africaand as the phenotype of the Central African is what we think of as black...then YES we ARE saying that blacks invented music. Sarcastic--but accurate--response #2: Music styles don't exist in and of themselves, but in specific times and places. Jazz for example has roots in both Africa AND America...but it is appropriate to say that the artform originated in America. Techno has roots in both America and Germany...but given that the term used to describe the artform comes from Juan Atkins, who also created music that can be subsumed under that labelthen we can say the following: We're just saying they invented TECHNO. ;)
Re: [313] not black enough...
the problem isnt the type of drugs--its the kids using them. give the same 16 yr old acid...they will still create the same problems they do on K or anything else. the older you get, the more responsible you get. yes, there r some (very few) exceptions. mike
Re: [313] not black enough...
To be able to go agianst the current black musician stereotype is VERY difficult. The media has burned in the minds of America's youth that black culture is all about chillin in the ghetto, and sex. I digress. The media is not the only culprit in this stereotype. Black men themselves (and i'm not speaking for all of them), are more than helping along this stereotype. Last time i checked, noone was holding a gun to puff daddy or Jay z's head to write the music they do (or sample) or the video's they star in. I know i'm not quoting (i already deleted the quote from my message, and i'm too lazy to go back) directly, but does all of this mean that white producers have no credit what so ever? Has all the techno that those crazy swedes have been putting out been for nothing? Is Richie Hawtin a terrible producer because he's not black? Have whites no real creativity when it comes to dance music? I'm assuming you all answer no. And with that, i ask you another question: since trance is written dominantely by white people, does this reason alone make it uncredible? _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
