RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Talking about techno-related books... just begun reading Laurent Garnier's Electrochoc, very promising ! I don't know if it has already been translated from French though... but even if you don't read French, you can at least find his excellent playlists here : http://www.pedrobroadcast.com/ Gwendal -Original Message- From: Redmond, Ja'Maul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 7:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; robin Subject: RE: (313) Book: G eneration Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Coming back to this late. But basically I agree with the below statement it clarifies what I was trying to say earlier. The book was well written and informative. I found out a lot about ecstacy that I didn't know and a lot about how some sub-genres got started. I just couldn't stomach his ideas and theories on our music. But honestly I have problems with over theorizing music in general so I may be biased. :) This has been a good discussion. Ja'Maul Redmond PERKINS WILL 1100 South Tryon Street, Suite 300 Charlotte, North Carolina 28203 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; Redmond, Ja'Maul; robin Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oh, I completely agree that Reynolds had an agenda. And like I said, I basically disagreed with every conclusion he came to. BUT...while his thesis may have been severly flawed, the research that he presents (ie- the history of ecstacy culture) is still compelling and well written. This is all sounding too scientific. Its music. And you can take the exact same story of ecstacy culture and come to completely different conclusions. here's an interview with Reynolds that helps explain where he's coming from: http://www.space-age-bachelor.com/features/99/reynolds.htm he talks extensively about Energy Flash here's a piece where Reynolds first seems to develope his theories on Detroit techno vs hardcore: http://www.epidemik.com/features/articles/hardcore_article.htm and finally- a rather extensive page on Reynolds that finds him rediscovering house with the Mille Plateux guys: http://www.jahsonic.com/SimonReynolds.html Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Ah this is true... However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other subgenres? I think he does/did a disservice to all electronic music by leaning so hard against some very important styles and artists. Aphex Twin did quite a bit bringing millions of people into electronic music and his influences in music production are heard a lot more today than any Big Beat track. Reynolds had an agenda. MEK
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Coming back to this late. But basically I agree with the below statement it clarifies what I was trying to say earlier. The book was well written and informative. I found out a lot about ecstacy that I didn't know and a lot about how some sub-genres got started. I just couldn't stomach his ideas and theories on our music. But honestly I have problems with over theorizing music in general so I may be biased. :) This has been a good discussion. Ja'Maul Redmond PERKINS WILL 1100 South Tryon Street, Suite 300 Charlotte, North Carolina 28203 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; Redmond, Ja'Maul; robin Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oh, I completely agree that Reynolds had an agenda. And like I said, I basically disagreed with every conclusion he came to. BUT...while his thesis may have been severly flawed, the research that he presents (ie- the history of ecstacy culture) is still compelling and well written. This is all sounding too scientific. Its music. And you can take the exact same story of ecstacy culture and come to completely different conclusions. here's an interview with Reynolds that helps explain where he's coming from: http://www.space-age-bachelor.com/features/99/reynolds.htm he talks extensively about Energy Flash here's a piece where Reynolds first seems to develope his theories on Detroit techno vs hardcore: http://www.epidemik.com/features/articles/hardcore_article.htm and finally- a rather extensive page on Reynolds that finds him rediscovering house with the Mille Plateux guys: http://www.jahsonic.com/SimonReynolds.html Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Ah this is true... However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other subgenres? I think he does/did a disservice to all electronic music by leaning so hard against some very important styles and artists. Aphex Twin did quite a bit bringing millions of people into electronic music and his influences in music production are heard a lot more today than any Big Beat track. Reynolds had an agenda. MEK
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
THE BOOK STILL SUCKS! -Original Message- From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:11 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture -- Original Message -- From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] (that's what music journo's do, i admit, and it's usually more out of their desire to generate more ink than a true proper look at something for what it is) just killed his earnestness and credibility for me. hmmm. ill have to disagree with you on this. the guy is obviously in it for his love of music, and most especially his love of the ever changing trends in music. i wouldnt necessarily call myself a simon reynolds fan, but i do read his blog all the time. i reccomend you find it and check it out, see that he does indeed overanalyze music in general, but for fun as opposed to money. and as far as his concentration on the hardcore continuum, thats mostly a result of his location during specific times when music changed. if you think about it, techno and house are mostly very retro music. im not saying this in a bad way, but just observe how you can mix old disco records with old house and techno records with new house and techno records and make it sound coherent. if you try that with any number of the hardcore related genres, its pretty much not going to happen because of their high rate of change (or progression as some like to think of it;). That said I haven't tried to write a book on techno, so I still can't blame him for trying. Respect is certainly due for that. But this is a book for people who want to get back in touch with their Inner Raver... or see what other parts of the rave scene they missed out, it's a book about drugs connection with the music... it's a book as much or more focused on drugs than the music. ive always had something of a beef with the connection of dance music and drugs because im not a big drug user, but over time ive come to see the importance of drug use to dance music. to say theyre unrelated is to totally miss anything of the culture that actually made dance music come into existance. its not like people making acid house suddenly made people want to do ecstacy. the people who made it were making something that appealed to dancefloors that already were using it, as well as other drugs. If you're looking for something meaningful about techno music, I recommend you look elsewhere. im not sure that was the point of the book though. thats what techno rebels is for. his book was focused more on the UK rave culture, which is far different from the detroit and chicago cultures that surrounded techno and house. tom andythepooh.com
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
thanks for contributing. On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, FC2 Richards wrote: THE BOOK STILL SUCKS! -Original Message- From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:11 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture -- Original Message -- From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] (that's what music journo's do, i admit, and it's usually more out of their desire to generate more ink than a true proper look at something for what it is) just killed his earnestness and credibility for me. hmmm. ill have to disagree with you on this. the guy is obviously in it for his love of music, and most especially his love of the ever changing trends in music. i wouldnt necessarily call myself a simon reynolds fan, but i do read his blog all the time. i reccomend you find it and check it out, see that he does indeed overanalyze music in general, but for fun as opposed to money. and as far as his concentration on the hardcore continuum, thats mostly a result of his location during specific times when music changed. if you think about it, techno and house are mostly very retro music. im not saying this in a bad way, but just observe how you can mix old disco records with old house and techno records with new house and techno records and make it sound coherent. if you try that with any number of the hardcore related genres, its pretty much not going to happen because of their high rate of change (or progression as some like to think of it;). That said I haven't tried to write a book on techno, so I still can't blame him for trying. Respect is certainly due for that. But this is a book for people who want to get back in touch with their Inner Raver... or see what other parts of the rave scene they missed out, it's a book about drugs connection with the music... it's a book as much or more focused on drugs than the music. ive always had something of a beef with the connection of dance music and drugs because im not a big drug user, but over time ive come to see the importance of drug use to dance music. to say theyre unrelated is to totally miss anything of the culture that actually made dance music come into existance. its not like people making acid house suddenly made people want to do ecstacy. the people who made it were making something that appealed to dancefloors that already were using it, as well as other drugs. If you're looking for something meaningful about techno music, I recommend you look elsewhere. im not sure that was the point of the book though. thats what techno rebels is for. his book was focused more on the UK rave culture, which is far different from the detroit and chicago cultures that surrounded techno and house. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. I don't have anything against phasing of techno. I'll just diss then cause I think it's a wack book. It's a visceral reaction. You've done a good job at citing the reasons why you like the book, fair enough. However I think any writer that capitulates this much on opinions, trends, phases, THIS micro-genre is better than THAT micro-genre [at this millisecond in time], etc. (that's what music journo's do, i admit, and it's usually more out of their desire to generate more ink than a true proper look at something for what it is) just killed his earnestness and credibility for me. I think it comes down to a vibe if you like all the ranting and spouting and style of Reynolds. To me just sounds like B.S. through the lens of e-colored glasses... like the guy in the chill-out room you wish would just shut-up and finally just pass out. ;) I don't recommend the book other than a way to react to his half-witted blatherings and form an opinion of your own. I guess that's what good books do, force you to react to an opinion, but not in the way this one does? That said I haven't tried to write a book on techno, so I still can't blame him for trying. Respect is certainly due for that. But this is a book for people who want to get back in touch with their Inner Raver... or see what other parts of the rave scene they missed out, it's a book about drugs connection with the music... it's a book as much or more focused on drugs than the music. In fact little all that critically valuable on the actual music IMHO, other than some interesting details here and there on tracks but lacks any real perspective. Obviously you connected with Reynolds, I don't. Wasn't it Reynolds who called Maurizio-type music heroin house in The Wire? It's almost like for Reynolds the music CANNOT EXIST without a drug reference to compliment it. That's just such a crutch! (for the record: I am not anti-drug, i'm more anti-idiocy than anything.) Hey, if you like it you like it. :) I just wanted to point out some of the reasons it chafed me personally... your mileage may vary. If you want to read all about drug subculture with music as the secondary backdrop, you may love it, I didn't. If you're looking for something meaningful about techno music, I recommend you look elsewhere. peace, Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
all fair points matt. i guess i'd rather read about crazed culture with music as a secondary. hence my love for lester bangs, hunter thompson, ect i think writing about music requires a presentation within another context (be it biographical, anidotal, whatever...) for me- an actual discertaion about 'the music' alone would be painfully boring. to each his own =) On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Matt MacQueen wrote: Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. I don't have anything against phasing of techno. I'll just diss then cause I think it's a wack book. It's a visceral reaction. You've done a good job at citing the reasons why you like the book, fair enough. However I think any writer that capitulates this much on opinions, trends, phases, THIS micro-genre is better than THAT micro-genre [at this millisecond in time], etc. (that's what music journo's do, i admit, and it's usually more out of their desire to generate more ink than a true proper look at something for what it is) just killed his earnestness and credibility for me. I think it comes down to a vibe if you like all the ranting and spouting and style of Reynolds. To me just sounds like B.S. through the lens of e-colored glasses... like the guy in the chill-out room you wish would just shut-up and finally just pass out. ;) I don't recommend the book other than a way to react to his half-witted blatherings and form an opinion of your own. I guess that's what good books do, force you to react to an opinion, but not in the way this one does? That said I haven't tried to write a book on techno, so I still can't blame him for trying. Respect is certainly due for that. But this is a book for people who want to get back in touch with their Inner Raver... or see what other parts of the rave scene they missed out, it's a book about drugs connection with the music... it's a book as much or more focused on drugs than the music. In fact little all that critically valuable on the actual music IMHO, other than some interesting details here and there on tracks but lacks any real perspective. Obviously you connected with Reynolds, I don't. Wasn't it Reynolds who called Maurizio-type music heroin house in The Wire? It's almost like for Reynolds the music CANNOT EXIST without a drug reference to compliment it. That's just such a crutch! (for the record: I am not anti-drug, i'm more anti-idiocy than anything.) Hey, if you like it you like it. :) I just wanted to point out some of the reasons it chafed me personally... your mileage may vary. If you want to read all about drug subculture with music as the secondary backdrop, you may love it, I didn't. If you're looking for something meaningful about techno music, I recommend you look elsewhere. peace, Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
-- Original Message -- From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] (that's what music journo's do, i admit, and it's usually more out of their desire to generate more ink than a true proper look at something for what it is) just killed his earnestness and credibility for me. hmmm. ill have to disagree with you on this. the guy is obviously in it for his love of music, and most especially his love of the ever changing trends in music. i wouldnt necessarily call myself a simon reynolds fan, but i do read his blog all the time. i reccomend you find it and check it out, see that he does indeed overanalyze music in general, but for fun as opposed to money. and as far as his concentration on the hardcore continuum, thats mostly a result of his location during specific times when music changed. if you think about it, techno and house are mostly very retro music. im not saying this in a bad way, but just observe how you can mix old disco records with old house and techno records with new house and techno records and make it sound coherent. if you try that with any number of the hardcore related genres, its pretty much not going to happen because of their high rate of change (or progression as some like to think of it;). That said I haven't tried to write a book on techno, so I still can't blame him for trying. Respect is certainly due for that. But this is a book for people who want to get back in touch with their Inner Raver... or see what other parts of the rave scene they missed out, it's a book about drugs connection with the music... it's a book as much or more focused on drugs than the music. ive always had something of a beef with the connection of dance music and drugs because im not a big drug user, but over time ive come to see the importance of drug use to dance music. to say theyre unrelated is to totally miss anything of the culture that actually made dance music come into existance. its not like people making acid house suddenly made people want to do ecstacy. the people who made it were making something that appealed to dancefloors that already were using it, as well as other drugs. If you're looking for something meaningful about techno music, I recommend you look elsewhere. im not sure that was the point of the book though. thats what techno rebels is for. his book was focused more on the UK rave culture, which is far different from the detroit and chicago cultures that surrounded techno and house. tom andythepooh.com
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
THIS BOOK SUCKS, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY. There is no music content in this book, I can't believe that I read it all. It is mostly about drugs and parties. I felt I wasted my time reading it, and my money even though mine was borrowed from a friend. Time IS money baby. I guess if you want to read about the gay wharehouse parties in san francisco or the early hard core partys in nyc that it might be alright. Tommy Sunshine has a part where he talks about making the journey to his first party in NYC thinking it would be a fun candy kid experience and was horrified by what Frankie Bones, Adam X, Heather Heart, and Jimmie Crash were all doing. If I remember right they were quite hardcore at the time whith X-Crash records and the such all over the market! My advice is to steer clear! Jeff -Original Message- From: Roland van Oorschot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:32 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oi! I stumbled across this book, Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture, while browsing on the Amazon.com site (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415923735/qid=1070576930/sr= 8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-9096464-4155045?v=glancen=507846). Is it any good? R. (Yeah, I already have Techno Rebels by Mr. Sicko ;-) --- http://www.funxiun.com ..dark.elektronix.
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
I read it and didn't like it either. It was entertaining at times, but too biased to be a book about electroinic music in GENERAL. It was like reading a thesis paper where the writer is trying to prove that electronic music is linked to raves which in turn are linked to drugs and therefore it shouldn't be separated. The Title should've been, Generation Ecstacy, The Importance drug culture in EDM. He kept making a point of saying that EDM music and drugs GO together and any attempt to separate the two is not successful. i.e. concept albums have no place in edm ,,,tracks are being better than songs??? There's way too many reference to Ecstacy as been GOOD for EDM and even a whole Chapter on the positive use of E. All of this is fine but I think he purposefully hid this agenda in a book that was marketed as General book about EDM. Ja'Maul Redmond PERKINS WILL 1100 South Tryon Street, Suite 300 Charlotte, North Carolina 28203 -Original Message- From: FC2 Richards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:09 PM To: 'Roland van Oorschot' Cc: '313@hyperreal.org' Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture THIS BOOK SUCKS, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY. There is no music content in this book, I can't believe that I read it all. It is mostly about drugs and parties. I felt I wasted my time reading it, and my money even though mine was borrowed from a friend. Time IS money baby. I guess if you want to read about the gay wharehouse parties in san francisco or the early hard core partys in nyc that it might be alright. Tommy Sunshine has a part where he talks about making the journey to his first party in NYC thinking it would be a fun candy kid experience and was horrified by what Frankie Bones, Adam X, Heather Heart, and Jimmie Crash were all doing. If I remember right they were quite hardcore at the time whith X-Crash records and the such all over the market! My advice is to steer clear! Jeff -Original Message- From: Roland van Oorschot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:32 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oi! I stumbled across this book, Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture, while browsing on the Amazon.com site (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415923735/qid=1070576930 /sr= 8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-9096464-4155045?v=glancen=507846). Is it any good? R. (Yeah, I already have Techno Rebels by Mr. Sicko ;-) --- http://www.funxiun.com ..dark.elektronix.
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
At 16:55 5-12-2003, you wrote: I read it and didn't like it either. Ah... thank you all for the comments about that book. I'll just leave it in the bookstore then. R. --- http://www.funxiun.com .dark.elektronix.
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Sorry for all the grammatical errors. I was hastengly trying to type all of that before I left for a meeting. :) But I think you got my point. Ja'Maul Redmond PERKINS WILL 1100 South Tryon Street, Suite 300 Charlotte, North Carolina 28203 -Original Message- From: Redmond, Ja'Maul Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:56 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture I read it and didn't like it either. It was entertaining at times, but too biased to be a book about electroinic music in GENERAL. It was like reading a thesis paper where the writer is trying to prove that electronic music is linked to raves which in turn are linked to drugs and therefore it shouldn't be separated. The Title should've been, Generation Ecstacy, The Importance drug culture in EDM. He kept making a point of saying that EDM music and drugs GO together and any attempt to separate the two is not successful. i.e. concept albums have no place in edm ,,,tracks are being better than songs??? There's way too many reference to Ecstacy as been GOOD for EDM and even a whole Chapter on the positive use of E. All of this is fine but I think he purposefully hid this agenda in a book that was marketed as General book about EDM. Ja'Maul Redmond PERKINS WILL 1100 South Tryon Street, Suite 300 Charlotte, North Carolina 28203 -Original Message- From: FC2 Richards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:09 PM To: 'Roland van Oorschot' Cc: '313@hyperreal.org' Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture THIS BOOK SUCKS, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY. There is no music content in this book, I can't believe that I read it all. It is mostly about drugs and parties. I felt I wasted my time reading it, and my money even though mine was borrowed from a friend. Time IS money baby. I guess if you want to read about the gay wharehouse parties in san francisco or the early hard core partys in nyc that it might be alright. Tommy Sunshine has a part where he talks about making the journey to his first party in NYC thinking it would be a fun candy kid experience and was horrified by what Frankie Bones, Adam X, Heather Heart, and Jimmie Crash were all doing. If I remember right they were quite hardcore at the time whith X-Crash records and the such all over the market! My advice is to steer clear! Jeff -Original Message- From: Roland van Oorschot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:32 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oi! I stumbled across this book, Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture, while browsing on the Amazon.com site (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415923735/qid=1070576930 /sr= 8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-9096464-4155045?v=glancen=507846). Is it any good? R. (Yeah, I already have Techno Rebels by Mr. Sicko ;-) --- http://www.funxiun.com ..dark.elektronix.
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
- He kept making a point of saying that EDM music and drugs - GO together - and any attempt to separate the two is not successful. i.e. concept - albums have no place in edm ,,,tracks are being better than songs??? - There's way too many reference to Ecstacy as been GOOD for EDM and - even a whole Chapter on the positive use of E. - - All of this is fine but I think he purposefully hid this agenda in a - book that was marketed as General book about EDM. well i guess he called the book Generation Ecstasy for a reason :) robin...
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Isn't this the same book that at the end Simon Reynolds claims that Big Beat is going to be the lifesaver of dance music? MEK robin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 'Redmond, Ja'Maul' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org ctric.com cc: Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave 12/05/03 10:50 AM Culture - He kept making a point of saying that EDM music and drugs - GO together - and any attempt to separate the two is not successful. i.e. concept - albums have no place in edm ,,,tracks are being better than songs??? - There's way too many reference to Ecstacy as been GOOD for EDM and - even a whole Chapter on the positive use of E. - - All of this is fine but I think he purposefully hid this agenda in a - book that was marketed as General book about EDM. well i guess he called the book Generation Ecstasy for a reason :) robin...
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
I gotta disagree with all the hatin' goin on about this book. To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Now about the book itself. For my money, its still the most compelling read I've encountered about the 90's rave culture. Maybe not about dance music or electronic music in general, but if you want to read about the ecstacy culture of the 90's- which was the main engine in propelling this music for the past ten years, its still the most well written and compelling book I;ve found. I will take for example the Tommie Sunshine/Frankie Bones segment, which is actually part of a broader piece about Milwaukee's Dropbass Network and the midwest rave scene in general. (if haven't read this, you can find it here: http://dropbass.net) AS anyone who even attended an MW event will confirm, that segment perfectly captures the experience of Dropbass. And for those who haven't been, its an honest look inside one (of many) significant tributaries that lead into the overall EDM culture. And Reynolds continually does that for every sub-section he chooses to cover. Helps put you there and hopefully help you understand how all of these interconnected elements make up the broader picture of 90's rave culture. Ironically- while I am a confirmed raver at heart, whose personality and lifestyle was infinately influenced by those experiences, I found myself disagreeing with most of Reynold's conclusions (tracks better than songs or albums, hardcore better than IDM...), but that certainly doesn't mean that I will dismiss his opinion. Its as though we both travelled the same path, but then came to wholly different conclusions about those experiences (and that's what makes life interesting and people different) If you're searching for a book about techno or dance music history or whatever, than Generation Ecstacy is hardly definative. But as a book written about the rave generation (hence the title) than it is second to none, given the time frame during which it was produced. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't this the same book that at the end Simon Reynolds claims that Big Beat is going to be the lifesaver of dance music? MEK robin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 'Redmond, Ja'Maul' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org ctric.com cc: Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave 12/05/03 10:50 AM Culture - He kept making a point of saying that EDM music and drugs - GO together - and any attempt to separate the two is not successful. i.e. concept - albums have no place in edm ,,,tracks are being better than songs??? - There's way too many reference to Ecstacy as been GOOD for EDM and - even a whole Chapter on the positive use of E. - - All of this is fine but I think he purposefully hid this agenda in a - book that was marketed as General book about EDM. well i guess he called the book Generation Ecstasy for a reason :) robin...
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Ah this is true... However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other subgenres? I think he does/did a disservice to all electronic music by leaning so hard against some very important styles and artists. Aphex Twin did quite a bit bringing millions of people into electronic music and his influences in music production are heard a lot more today than any Big Beat track. Reynolds had an agenda. MEK
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Oh, I completely agree that Reynolds had an agenda. And like I said, I basically disagreed with every conclusion he came to. BUT...while his thesis may have been severly flawed, the research that he presents (ie- the history of ecstacy culture) is still compelling and well written. This is all sounding too scientific. Its music. And you can take the exact same story of ecstacy culture and come to completely different conclusions. here's an interview with Reynolds that helps explain where he's coming from: http://www.space-age-bachelor.com/features/99/reynolds.htm he talks extensively about Energy Flash here's a piece where Reynolds first seems to develope his theories on Detroit techno vs hardcore: http://www.epidemik.com/features/articles/hardcore_article.htm and finally- a rather extensive page on Reynolds that finds him rediscovering house with the Mille Plateux guys: http://www.jahsonic.com/SimonReynolds.html Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Ah this is true... However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other subgenres? I think he does/did a disservice to all electronic music by leaning so hard against some very important styles and artists. Aphex Twin did quite a bit bringing millions of people into electronic music and his influences in music production are heard a lot more today than any Big Beat track. Reynolds had an agenda. MEK
RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. I'm not dissing him because we didn't go through the same phase (or get stuck in the same one) I actually had a flirtation with Big Beat but came to my senses when I realized that there were records with real soul and not some blackface sampled version that Big Beat was/had become *I didn't write a book about the history of rave culture that included attacks on genres I don't get - *he did* and he slagged off lots of very talented people He mixed his very biased opinions with his facts and that's bad journalism if you're attempting to write a *factual* history he knew that some people reading Gen Ecstasy would be influenced by what he had to say (because they were new to electronic dance music and hadn't formed their own opinions yet) there should be a BIG disclaimer at the front of the book WARNING - most of the material in this book is based on factual events but I sometimes digress into petty slagging because I can't bother to think or feel anything about the music on an level that is beyond one without first taking drugs. MEK [EMAIL PROTECTED] et To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: 313@hyperreal.org, 'Redmond, Ja'Maul' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 12/05/03 02:43 PM robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture Oh, I completely agree that Reynolds had an agenda. And like I said, I basically disagreed with every conclusion he came to. BUT...while his thesis may have been severly flawed, the research that he presents (ie- the history of ecstacy culture) is still compelling and well written. This is all sounding too scientific. Its music. And you can take the exact same story of ecstacy culture and come to completely different conclusions. here's an interview with Reynolds that helps explain where he's coming from: http://www.space-age-bachelor.com/features/99/reynolds.htm he talks extensively about Energy Flash here's a piece where Reynolds first seems to develope his theories on Detroit techno vs hardcore: http://www.epidemik.com/features/articles/hardcore_article.htm and finally- a rather extensive page on Reynolds that finds him rediscovering house with the Mille Plateux guys: http://www.jahsonic.com/SimonReynolds.html Everyone's music collection is based around 'phases'. Reynolds just does an excellent job capturing his phases in print. Don't diss because he went through some phases that you didn't. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To immediately address Mr. Knight's concerns, I blieve the book was first published around 97-98, which is when big beat was a new and exciting sound. And judging from where electronic music went after big beat in terms of mass appeal, seems as though Mr. Reynolds wasn;t that far off. Granted- Big Beat now seems trivial, but you can't deny the importance of the Chemical Brothers and Norman Cook in bringing electronic music to a higher level of awareness to the public. A level that hasn't been topped since. Ah this is true... However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other
Re: (313) Book: Generation Ecstasy : Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture
Yussel said essentially the same things I wanted to say, but I wanted to respond to a couple of points: On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 02:02:45PM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I'd like to know how many people who went to all the Chemical Bros. and Fatboy Slim shows back in the heyday of Big Beat are still listening to this music? It seems to be more of a flash and it's over movement as opposed to the steady life of techno and house. So - after the party was going for a few years how many people were already heading for the door? Now the White Stripes are saving rock 'n roll There's truth to this, but... o Played any videogames recently? SSX 3, for reasons I will never understand, included Leave Home on the soundtrack. Either the soundtrack programmers for SSX 3 are very, very lazy (unlikely, given the diversity of the rest of the soundtrack, which is admittedly all Virgin artists), or Leave Home has attained the status of classic normally reserved for, oh, Evenflow. o Listened to any 2 Many DJs comps / mashup sets recently? Those kids will use any and all source materials for their sets just to get the party going (which is why that stuff's probably about the most entertaining thing happening in dance music right now, even if it is getting kind of played out), but they have two backbones: cheesy old hip-hop (cf. ref. Steinski) and large-scale big-beat appropriation. Injecting a little personal sentiment into things, I only pulled the stick out of my ass with respect to the Chemical Brothers this year. I loved the first few Dust Brothers singles, but after Astralwerks started their gigantic Electronica is the next rock and roll WOO PARTY! marketing push, I got a little disgusted and stopped listening to Chem Bros out of protest (I'm kind of retarded that way). That said, I picked up the singles comp and the music is just as retarded and fun as it ever was. And even when I was hatin' on buying Chemical Brothers records I was going to see them live, and I *always* had a good time. Everybody danced, everybody had fun. At least as far as I could tell. I think there's a large audience of folks who listen mostly to rock-type music and aren't music fanatics the same way that people in self- selecting communities like 313 are who still have the odd Prodigy / Crystal Method / Chemical Brothers / Hybrid CD that gets pulled out with fair frequency. The mass appeal didn't last in either case of Hardcore or Big Beat. I'd like to see a new addition with some kind of update on his thoughts or maybe Generation Ecstasy part deux - everyone back to mine As Yussel said, Simon's tastes have continued to mutate over the years. He's been into, at various times, PCP-style doomcore, Mannie Fresh / Cash Money-style hip hop, and speed garage. He's a creature of his passions, which are fickle but always sincere. I know that the Chems and Fatboy Slim were/are immensely popular but they had to cop rock 'n' roll images to get there - which does nothing for any music producer who doesn't want to sell themselves like that. I'd argue that Big Beat brought little attention to any other genre that wasn't presented as a circus. I'd argue that instead what happened was that big beat diffused into the mainstream. It copped rock'n'roll images because that's more or less what it was trying to be -- high energy, high attitude, low intelligence music that a random crowd of happy drunk people could get down to. I see its influence around me everywhere, on soundtracks (like, oh, say, THE MATRIX), games, radio bumpers, and especially on certain kinds of heavy metal and rock music. And nu skool breaks, which is still pretty interesting today, is a more reflective / paranoid take on big beat, so some of the influence was back into the dance music underground. Plus, how can someone write a book saying that one subgenre is going to save the entire world of electronic music and then turn around and slag off other subgenres? Because that's how he genuinely saw it at the time? I've corresponded a little with Simon over the years, and I don't think he's nearly as calculating as some people seem to think he is -- he's a quintessential music geek, which means that he argues from the heart rather than the head a lot of the time, and it also means that his opinions change pretty radically over time. I think a lot of us do that, but we try to pretend to some unfelt objectivity when it comes time to write. I'm on 313 because I still like techno a lot, but there have definitely been times in the last 10 years when I've been absolutely convinced that the scene has its head totally jammed up its ass and all the interesting action is somewhere else. Putting that sort of thought into print is a good conversation-starter, and might trigger some actual changes as people set out to prove him wrong. I'm not saying anything about any of the people in on this thread, but some of the people Reynolds
