RE: (313) MM Bootlegs
Yes saw this on Boomkat yesterday... click and read... http://www.boomkat.com/search.cfm?artist=MOODYMANtitle=Im%20Doing%20Fine%20%2F%20Black%20Mahogany Rav -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:09 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: (313) MM Bootlegs So, Moodymann got bootlegged - I presume by the same peeps who did the Ugly Edits Booties. It's his own tracks though (albeit with some hefty samples in there...). Surely this is a bit out of order is it not? Alex _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
Alex Bond wrote: Moodymann got bootlegged - I presume by the same peeps who did the Ugly Edits Booties. It's his own tracks though (albeit with some hefty samples in there...). Surely this is a bit out of order is it not? That may be so, but releasing full-priced one-sided, 4-minute-long EPs or EPs with the same track on both side *is* taking the piss as well. Heck, maybe it's Moodymann who's himself behind it :) Otto
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
However, where does it go from here? If they get away with this, then everyone may as well start bootlegging anything that goes on ebay for more than $75. Amp dog knight - feeling fine is just new... 3 months old... you can buy this for normal 12 price.. And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... It is maybee worth $20 or something... So why would you want to bootleg this? The KDJ17 could be pretty rare... but bootlegging a 3 month old track is just insane. Cheers, Maarten
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
So why would you want to bootleg this? Well, I'm not too sure really. Was really interested to hear what other people thought about it. That's my point, I don't get it. Surely they must be doing it for financial purposes, which, in my opinion, in this small industry, is bang out of order really? (maybe, dunno what I think really, just up for a discussion on this slow afternoon). i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? from my point of view i think it's wrong. the other point of view is that someone who charges more, does one siders and does limited runs to pump the demand is in it for the money to a certain extent and asks for this to happen (for the sake of discussion...obviously the answer to this is that kenny makes the money here cos he's the artist...) hmmm this is a can of worms isn't it? robin...
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST
Two things: 1. I don't think that someone is asking for it if they overprice their releases. Obviously vinyl is hugely important, but it's not our right to be able to buy records at the price we want. That's a justification for theft - which is what bootlegging is. I should note that I'm only trying to outline what I see as the principal, I've bought bootlegs in my time. 2. RS at LOST - v. good indeed. Don't know what Maurizio and Mark look like, but assuming that they have an impassive, vaguely teutonic appearance then it was probably them (nice polo neck!). They played a puckah selection of mostly 80s + a bit of 70s, that would have gone down pretty well at a dedicated roots night. They also played 'King In My Empire'. Major difference from a roots night was that almost no one was dancing. I found this a bit strange since reggae is dance music after all. However, it actually worked really well in the LOST context, since they have been lacking a proper chill out room for ages. I think it makes the main room work much better (though moving the reeking toilets out of the chill out room probably helped as well). Dan Amp dog knight - feeling fine is just new It's new, but somewhat unbelievably, it went for $90 on ebay last week. And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... Yep, it's deffo too much, but I know it's been going for £40 ish here. So why would you want to bootleg this? Well, I'm not too sure really. Was really interested to hear what other people thought about it. That's my point, I don't get it. Surely they must be doing it for financial purposes, which, in my opinion, in this small industry, is bang out of order really? (maybe, dunno what I think really, just up for a discussion on this slow afternoon).
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? Well, this is it. Not a great deal. Around £500 ish? (depending on what distributors would pay you for the record) Surely there's easier ways of making a hooky monkey? the other point of view is that someone who charges more, does one siders and does limited runs to pump the demand is in it for the money to a certain extent and asks for this to happen Yes, he asks for it I reckon and shouldn't be surprised. He has a rep. for being a bit greedy (I don't know whether this is true or not - just what everyone tells me) which is of course very relative, as he's just grabbing what he can to pay the bills no doubt. so is that greed, or just trying to pay the rent without doing a menial job like everyone else has to? _ - End of message text This e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, print or rely on this e-mail. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England with registered number OC303525. The registered office of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6RH. All partners in PricewaterhouseCoopers UK Associates A are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring. Visit our website http://www.pwcglobal.com
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST
im not bothered if a tune is only a few months old but when people bootleg old stuff it really upsets me, esp considering its happened on records that i have spent 5 years looking for :( ab -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:39 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST Two things: 1. I don't think that someone is asking for it if they overprice their releases. Obviously vinyl is hugely important, but it's not our right to be able to buy records at the price we want. That's a justification for theft - which is what bootlegging is. I should note that I'm only trying to outline what I see as the principal, I've bought bootlegs in my time. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
I think it's a little harsh to say he deserves it, nobody deserves theft (truism alert). Maybe the important point here is that this guy makes some incredible music, and if you want it, you buy it! I was gonna get the bootleg, just to have it, really. Can't find it though (yet). I know if it was me getting ripped off then I'd be well pissed off, but once they're out there, well what are you gonna do? Buy the fu*ker - I remember doing the same with that bootleg of Erykah Badu's 'On On', which was meant to be KDJ...
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST
im not bothered if a tune is only a few months old but when people bootleg old stuff it really upsets me, esp considering its happened on records that i have spent 5 years looking for yeah but the value of the boot is most of the time less than the original and it's nicer to have that original in your hand assuming the quality of the boot is the same as the original this is just a question of how much of a collector you are or whether you just want the tune to play imo robin...
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? Well, this is it. Not a great deal. Around £500 ish? (depending on what distributors would pay you for the record) Surely there's easier ways of making a hooky monkey? that little? ok a little hard to see the motivation then really Yes, he asks for it I reckon and shouldn't be surprised. He has a rep. for being a bit greedy (I don't know whether this is true or not - just what everyone tells me) which is of course very relative, as he's just grabbing what he can to pay the bills no doubt. so is that greed, or just trying to pay the rent without doing a menial job like everyone else has to? it's a line drawing thing then isn't it, as you say we do these jobs cos we think the money is enough to cover what we think we're worth (well kinda) kenny dixon jnr obviously thinks he's worth the money that his 12s go for and does the one sided/limited thing cos he deserves the money for the job he does. in this instance i'd probably agree with him. (in fact in his situation i'd be tempted to do the same) robin...
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST
i agree with you. i also disagree with p2p mp3 pirating... but lets not go there. ab -Original Message- From: robin pinning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:53 AM To: Alex Bates Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) MM Bootlegs + RS at LOST im not bothered if a tune is only a few months old but when people bootleg old stuff it really upsets me, esp considering its happened on records that i have spent 5 years looking for yeah but the value of the boot is most of the time less than the original and it's nicer to have that original in your hand assuming the quality of the boot is the same as the original this is just a question of how much of a collector you are or whether you just want the tune to play imo robin... --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs
I don't think it's bootleg copies he has to worry about - it's mp3's and final scratch he has to worry about.. His lawyer might have other reserves.. Someone else is making money off his name! It's all about the dollar bill y'all -Original Message- From: robin pinning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 March 2003 15:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) MM Bootlegs i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? Well, this is it. Not a great deal. Around £500 ish? (depending on what distributors would pay you for the record) Surely there's easier ways of making a hooky monkey? that little? ok a little hard to see the motivation then really Yes, he asks for it I reckon and shouldn't be surprised. He has a rep. for being a bit greedy (I don't know whether this is true or not - just what everyone tells me) which is of course very relative, as he's just grabbing what he can to pay the bills no doubt. so is that greed, or just trying to pay the rent without doing a menial job like everyone else has to? it's a line drawing thing then isn't it, as you say we do these jobs cos we think the money is enough to cover what we think we're worth (well kinda) kenny dixon jnr obviously thinks he's worth the money that his 12s go for and does the one sided/limited thing cos he deserves the money for the job he does. in this instance i'd probably agree with him. (in fact in his situation i'd be tempted to do the same) robin...
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... Why is kdj going for so much..its the black mahogany ep isn't it. Can't u go and buy it anywhere.. Sister ray or hmv I may be wrong Yep, it's deffo too much, but I know it's been going for £40 ish here. So why would you want to bootleg this? Well, I'm not too sure really. Was really interested to hear what other people thought about it. That's my point, I don't get it. Surely they must be doing it for financial purposes, which, in my opinion, in this small industry, is bang out of order really? (maybe, dunno what I think really, just up for a discussion on this slow afternoon). _ - End of message text This e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, print or rely on this e-mail. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England with registered number OC303525. The registered office of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6RH. All partners in PricewaterhouseCoopers UK Associates A are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring. Visit our website http://www.pwcglobal.com
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs
I don't think it's bootleg copies he has to worry about - it's mp3's and final scratch he has to worry about.. as have all underground labels then in that casehmmm things are gonna have to change in response to the technology over the next few years. robin...
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs
I always imagined MP3s help vinyl sales rather than hurt them. People hear stuff on the internet and then go out and buy the vinyl. Most people do not have fancy MP3 players and Final Scratch to play their MP3s out, they just use the MP3s as another resource for tracking down good music. Having said that, I can see how MP3s might hurt album/CD sales cos it's so easy to burn CDs off - though I don't see that as a problem with DJ mixes, just artist albums and commercially released mixes. -Original Message- From: Ryan Snowden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:28 PM Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) MM Bootlegs I don't think it's bootleg copies he has to worry about - it's mp3's and final scratch he has to worry about.. His lawyer might have other reserves.. Someone else is making money off his name! It's all about the dollar bill y'all -Original Message- From: robin pinning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 March 2003 15:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) MM Bootlegs i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? Well, this is it. Not a great deal. Around £500 ish? (depending on what distributors would pay you for the record) Surely there's easier ways of making a hooky monkey? that little? ok a little hard to see the motivation then really Yes, he asks for it I reckon and shouldn't be surprised. He has a rep. for being a bit greedy (I don't know whether this is true or not - just what everyone tells me) which is of course very relative, as he's just grabbing what he can to pay the bills no doubt. so is that greed, or just trying to pay the rent without doing a menial job like everyone else has to? it's a line drawing thing then isn't it, as you say we do these jobs cos we think the money is enough to cover what we think we're worth (well kinda) kenny dixon jnr obviously thinks he's worth the money that his 12s go for and does the one sided/limited thing cos he deserves the money for the job he does. in this instance i'd probably agree with him. (in fact in his situation i'd be tempted to do the same) robin... Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: (313) MM Bootlegs
I think there will be a new kind of mp3 release on a disc for final scratchers perhaps... Could be dodgy.. But what they will do is reduce the price as it's electronic or the storage medium (cd) is cheap.. More final scratchers will see the light, more small sales might equate to just as much in profit as before... Or something like that... This will take place over 10 years I expect... -Original Message- From: robin pinning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 March 2003 15:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) MM Bootlegs I don't think it's bootleg copies he has to worry about - it's mp3's and final scratch he has to worry about.. as have all underground labels then in that casehmmm things are gonna have to change in response to the technology over the next few years. robin...
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
thanks for those figures otto, puts it into perspective if i was gonna boot soemthing then i'd want to sell every copyMM is the perfect target then surely. robin... i guess the question then is how much would you make on, say, 2000 bootlegged copies of this type? If you go through a regular distributor and pressing plant and sell every copy, about EUR/USD 1500-2000. If you press illegally (and hence don't pay artists rights, which seems like a fair assumption in this case...), add another 1000 EUR/USD. If you are prepared to go through the hassle of doing your own distribution, add EUR/USD 2000 to your profit, again assuming you sell everything. As any record label owner can testify, selling records is not interesting as a source of income unless you sell several thousand copies, which is rather rare these days... The real money is in getting it licensed.
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
Robin wrote: it's a line drawing thing then isn't it, as you say we do these jobs cos we think the money is enough to cover what we think we're worth (well kinda) kenny dixon jnr obviously thinks he's worth the money that his 12s go for and does the one sided/limited thing cos he deserves the money for the job he does. Agreed, but if you take this principle to the extreme, you arrive at the situation where no record has a fixed price and instead every release is auctioned off, because only then will you discover what every release is worth. Fact is that there is an (implicit) beat-for-the-buck standard in the industry of 15-20 minutes of music for about 10-11 EUR/USD. If someone doesn't want to conform to that standard, that's his perfect right to do so. The consequence however is that people are all of a sudden confronted with the fact that they're paying the same amount of money for half or less the amount of music. If you'd put that great track that you would buy the single-sided EP for, on a three-track EP with two average tracks that you wouldn't think of buying the EP for, the three-tracker would sell a lot more copies than the one-tracker even though it's the exact same great track that people buy it for. So doing the one-sided or double-track stuff makes people much more calculative than they would be normally, and one end result of that attitude is bootlegging. Otto
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
If you'd put that great track that you would buy the single-sided EP for, on a three-track EP with two average tracks that you wouldn't think of buying the EP for, the three-tracker would sell a lot more copies than the one-tracker even though it's the exact same great track that people buy it for. So doing the one-sided or double-track stuff makes people much more calculative than they would be normally, and one end result of that attitude is bootlegging. That's well put Otto. Never really thought of it like that... Just picking up on that though, I wonder if he makes the conscious decision to put one sided stuff out like that due to the fact he can make a little bit more money, or whether it's a case of well, I need to put a record out and he only has one track that he's satisfied with at that time, and doesn't want to wait a couple of months till he's finished something else? To be honest, I always thought it was a money making thing, but thinking about it, it could be the latter just as much as the former? _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
If the records were easier to get hold of then there would be no point in buying the bootleg. However, it's put out in very limited numbers and is highly sort after and thus the value of the records reach a premium. Great for collectors, and the annoying gits that buy up shops full of stock so they can sell it on at a profit later, but not so good the people who live for the music and just want to have the records. I have some bootlegs and I don't feel guilty about it, because I would have bought the original if I could get hold of it at a proper price and would even probably still buy the original if it became available. Another way of looking at it is that the bootlegs are doing people a service by making the tracks available to more people, especially if they're not making much money doing it.
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
apparently the amp dog knight's 12 was sold out in most places within a couple of weeks, and there was a huge demand [anyone following the dhp messageboard can testify] so that might explain the bootleg. as for asking for it? i dunno, that is kind of a harsh statement. i think kenny dixon jr. does actually do quite a good job keeping his old releases available [ok not all of them, but don't forget about some sampling problems] i's just that his following has grown to such an extent that his initial release is sold out real fast, because he hasn't pressed enough copies. but is that really his fault? he has to pay for all those copies, before they hit the street, quite an investment if you ask me. a limited first press will give him more security about getting his initial investment back. the bootleggers are stealing from kenny! here's why: first of they only suply a release that they know is a return on investment. [there's allready a demand created by the official release] but by suplying this demand, they also take away kdj's chance to re-release the single. people who are still after the record will now buy the bootleg, as there's no other way of getting hold of the original. so when kdj decides to re-release the record, the demand will have died out. i hate all these limited releases btw! i have limited funds at the moment, so all i'm buying are records that had a limited release, as i probably won't be able to get the for a decent price in the future, and hardly even check any other releases anymore. [ok i'm exagerating a little here :) ] oh and some of these records that are 'hard to find' really aren't, but people forget to look for them, maybe you're not looking at the right shop [try the big chain stores, no one with taste ever shops there, but they often do buy the more well known 'underground' releases] just my 2 euro cents, jurren _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
apparently the amp dog knight's 12 was sold out in most places within a couple of weeks, and there was a huge demand [anyone following the dhp messageboard can testify] so that might explain the bootleg. For the record..what is the difference between the bootleg and the repress and the original... Do they look the same
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
Besides, I saw some of the early moodymann releases on gemm.com. I thought it was Terrence Parker who sold them... Not that expensive if my memory serves my right. http://TPMusic.gemm.com I was actually talking about the KDJ 05 first pressing... I never saw one of these... the first pressing has 3 tracks, and the repress has 4.. but i feel joy is not on it! Cheers, Maarten
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
From: Placid [EMAIL PROTECTED] And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... Why is kdj going for so much..its the black mahogany ep isn't it. Can't u go and buy it anywhere.. Sister ray or hmv I may be wrong No Paul... it is one of those which never got a repress just like KDJ18 wich is a one sided theo parrish release.. Luckely I found that for $8, but I never saw one after that... Greets, Maarten
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
For the record..what is the difference between the bootleg and the repress and the original... Do they look the same The bootleg has a white label with Kenny´s kdj logo on it.. The writing on the label is just like the writing on the theo parrish ugly edits bootlegs. Hope I helped you, Maarten
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
agreed.. I don't understand about the Amp track as well it's by the same who did the two Theo bootlegs it was nice to see Theo's reaction to it, when he was over in Amsterdam last week :-) with Theo's first bootleg i'm a bit doubty, as he released a refused remix with Jill Scott samples himself as well, which made it already some sort of bootleg, and now i.m.o. bootleg was bootlegged.. ah well - Original Message - From: Maarten Baute [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:40 PM Subject: Re: (313) MM Bootlegs However, where does it go from here? If they get away with this, then everyone may as well start bootlegging anything that goes on ebay for more than $75. Amp dog knight - feeling fine is just new... 3 months old... you can buy this for normal 12 price.. And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... It is maybee worth $20 or something... So why would you want to bootleg this? The KDJ17 could be pretty rare... but bootlegging a 3 month old track is just insane. Cheers, Maarten
Re: (313) MM Bootlegs
That's because Theo starting pressing them up himself , as a Sound Signature type record. I have the original on KDJ, and then about 2 years ago, he started repressing up the entire Sound Signature catalog pretty regularly, and one of these represses was Theo's , Took me All the Way back, but with a new label on. I know quite a bit of these were repressed, but I don't think they say KDJ 18 anymore. I'll have to dig mine out and see. Dave Maarten Baute wrote: From: Placid [EMAIL PROTECTED] And I bought the KDJ17 for $30 last month.. wich is still too much in my opinion... Why is kdj going for so much..its the black mahogany ep isn't it. Can't u go and buy it anywhere.. Sister ray or hmv I may be wrong No Paul... it is one of those which never got a repress just like KDJ18 wich is a one sided theo parrish release.. Luckely I found that for $8, but I never saw one after that... Greets, Maarten
