Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
race has been talked into the fuggin ground as well, because yes it is a very essential and important subject. i'm not sure what is being argued here. actually, i see nothing being said at all, aside from some quotes from mainstream hiphop.. yes there is racism inherent in all societies and it is deeply entrenched in techno. and?? digging deeper..?? what are the issues being discussed, i missed something ok, you want to know, what the issues were before ? the main issues still are, that there are big race-problems in the US, (also on the whole globe) and the problems get reflected in some of 313-music, in titles, lyrics, samples, artwork, in interviews - but many people do ignore those messages, that artists do make to be heard - to communicate - - I got some mails here by some of the people with great taste (being writers, making music-pages, etc) saying that they just don´t care, what the messages are like - Also many reactions in the past showed up that many people do not agree at all that a strong fundament of 313-techno-music is based on black-culture and so they tried to proove that this is not true by highlighting many influences of white musicians in the world of music Then, also some people showed up they felt offended when it was about blackness, black artists black music etc... for various reasons ... some called it boring, crap some seemed to have a good motivation, that they don´t want to make any differences, based on the colour of the skin but I think it needs sometimes people to explain the messages to them that this is not the way the world order* keeps going on in reality - (* world order incl. about 50 % black soldiers in the us-army ? /correct me, damn me, if I am posting wrong numbers/ over 80 % of the killed soldiers in Vietnam were black ? - just another xample - put this into the relation of how many black people are locked in prison and how many black people are dying in the streets every day in the US) - theese were some of the main issues I think that have been discussed here, but not at all in a way that you could say - it´s all clear now - also J.T., I think it´s good when the people do bring themselves and their history intoo the frame, their own perspectives and experiences about myself - I feel that my english and knowledge actually wouldn´t be good enough to to enter this discussion, but I did feel the need to speak up, cauze some people somehow keep trying to wipe out those issues from the list - I do know it´s a heavy case and I can´t sleep, work and stop thinking about it as soon as I concentrate on it myself... - when I talk with some black friends about this ... (just imagine, it could only be one word that would seperate us 4 ever) - when I wonder how much they can take, when I see the ignorant reactions - when I remember how some storys about intelligence tests, spreaded by respectabled university professors used to make me believe black people wouldn´t be as intelligent as white people, when I was a teenager - when there was the biggest nazi-demonstration since the end of the second world war, marching through Berlin last year - I worry, when I put postings about this subject on the list, because I think I might be doing some harm to 313-culture cauze of talking shit - - and on and on - I do know it´s a heavy case - - but I was told, my worries ain´t a tiny bit as heavy, as it is to be black and living in Oakland, Brooklyn etc... or some areas in DETROIT m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. I still don´t understand the conclusion - We shall stop talking about the too heavy too complicated subject ? I thought we want to talk and learn about 313-music and art, right ? So when we hear and read that there are also black-related subjects in the music, in artwork, in lyrics and in interviews, I would think this is quite a good place to talk and learn about some of the background of this art - and so I will repeat this here - Just take a title of a record like - Ebonics - by Theo Parrish - the subject is in the title - you can hear the vocal-samples directly dedicated to the subject Now just count the postings done here about record-numbers and id´s of Mr. Parrish´s records and mixes (which is great) - but now put this amount against the number of people talking about the record-titles, the meanings of his art some including black related subjects- you come up with a number 100:0 = 100-mixes vs 0-messages ? now have you ever heard of a simple phenomenon called silent majority ? no no, not us here ?? - preaching to the converted ? how should I know, when I see the majority relation about 100:0 I would like to talk about the black messages in the art - to learn and understand - because some music in music-culture is also connected with sending information with teaching and communication in various ways - I would like to understand more - 4 some understanding it´s good to communicate - and this is what this list is made 4 - to chat and learn about the music and art some artists have a focus on non-messages - want the music to speak without words - others mix the music with other things and thoughts that move them - but all the people pushing the black messages into the racistic corner, by calling it off-topic, too heavy or too academic to talk about it, or keep preaching on it´s only music are making the debate very strange and this avoids getting closer to the art - this won´t help in the deeper understanding of much music-art coming from Detroit - still thanx 4 the books - m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
I hear the upshot of what you're saying, but many of us have weathered the race threads to no end. I think it's generally a nonproductive topic for such a geographically diverse group on email. Sorry if I contributed to the fray in that nonproductive manner. However, the Theo to race discussion is probably more like 1:100 here. I recall a link to an interview with Theo Parrish from a number of moths back in which he was very candid about race relations in the underground media, and particularly the way that Moodymann has been portrayed. Anyone remember the URL? Tristan -- http://www.mp313.com - Music http://www.metrotechno.net - DC techno + more http://www.metatrackstudios.com - DC DJ/Production studios http://phonopsia.tripod.com - Hub [EMAIL PROTECTED] - email FrogboyMCI - AOL Instant Messenger - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. I still don´t understand the conclusion - We shall stop talking about the too heavy too complicated subject ? I thought we want to talk and learn about 313-music and art, right ? So when we hear and read that there are also black-related subjects in the music, in artwork, in lyrics and in interviews, I would think this is quite a good place to talk and learn about some of the background of this art - and so I will repeat this here - Just take a title of a record like - Ebonics - by Theo Parrish - the subject is in the title - you can hear the vocal-samples directly dedicated to the subject Now just count the postings done here about record-numbers and id´s of Mr. Parrish´s records and mixes (which is great) - but now put this amount against the number of people talking about the record-titles, the meanings of his art some including black related subjects- you come up with a number 100:0 = 100-mixes vs 0-messages ? now have you ever heard of a simple phenomenon called silent majority ? no no, not us here ?? - preaching to the converted ? how should I know, when I see the majority relation about 100:0 I would like to talk about the black messages in the art - to learn and understand - because some music in music-culture is also connected with sending information with teaching and communication in various ways - I would like to understand more - 4 some understanding it´s good to communicate - and this is what this list is made 4 - to chat and learn about the music and art some artists have a focus on non-messages - want the music to speak without words - others mix the music with other things and thoughts that move them - but all the people pushing the black messages into the racistic corner, by calling it off-topic, too heavy or too academic to talk about it, or keep preaching on it´s only music are making the debate very strange and this avoids getting closer to the art - this won´t help in the deeper understanding of much music-art coming from Detroit - still thanx 4 the books - m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
it's a really cool article too, peace rc on 18/2/02 6:46 PM, Phonopsia at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: probably more like 1:100 here. I recall a link to an interview with Theo Parrish from a number of moths back in which he was very candid about race relations in the underground media, and particularly the way that Moodymann has been portrayed. Anyone remember the URL? [EMAIL PROTECTED] - email FrogboyMCI - AOL Instant Messenger - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. I still don´t understand the conclusion - We shall stop talking about the too heavy too complicated subject ? I thought we want to talk and learn about 313-music and art, right ? So when we hear and read that there are also black-related subjects in the music, in artwork, in lyrics and in interviews, I would think this is quite a good place to talk and learn about some of the background of this art - and so I will repeat this here - Just take a title of a record like - Ebonics - by Theo Parrish - the subject is in the title - you can hear the vocal-samples directly dedicated to the subject Now just count the postings done here about record-numbers and id´s of Mr. Parrish´s records and mixes (which is great) - but now put this amount against the number of people talking about the record-titles, the meanings of his art some including black related subjects- you come up with a number 100:0 = 100-mixes vs 0-messages ? now have you ever heard of a simple phenomenon called silent majority ? no no, not us here ?? - preaching to the converted ? how should I know, when I see the majority relation about 100:0 I would like to talk about the black messages in the art - to learn and understand - because some music in music-culture is also connected with sending information with teaching and communication in various ways - I would like to understand more - 4 some understanding it´s good to communicate - and this is what this list is made 4 - to chat and learn about the music and art some artists have a focus on non-messages - want the music to speak without words - others mix the music with other things and thoughts that move them - but all the people pushing the black messages into the racistic corner, by calling it off-topic, too heavy or too academic to talk about it, or keep preaching on it´s only music are making the debate very strange and this avoids getting closer to the art - this won´t help in the deeper understanding of much music-art coming from Detroit - still thanx 4 the books - m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
sorry forgot the link: http://www.deepcity.org/staple/guests/theointerview.jpg on 18/2/02 6:46 PM, Phonopsia at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: probably more like 1:100 here. I recall a link to an interview with Theo Parrish from a number of moths back in which he was very candid about race relations in the underground media, and particularly the way that Moodymann has been portrayed. Anyone remember the URL? Tristan -- http://www.mp313.com - Music http://www.metrotechno.net - DC techno + more http://www.metatrackstudios.com - DC DJ/Production studios http://phonopsia.tripod.com - Hub [EMAIL PROTECTED] - email FrogboyMCI - AOL Instant Messenger - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. I still don´t understand the conclusion - We shall stop talking about the too heavy too complicated subject ? I thought we want to talk and learn about 313-music and art, right ? So when we hear and read that there are also black-related subjects in the music, in artwork, in lyrics and in interviews, I would think this is quite a good place to talk and learn about some of the background of this art - and so I will repeat this here - Just take a title of a record like - Ebonics - by Theo Parrish - the subject is in the title - you can hear the vocal-samples directly dedicated to the subject Now just count the postings done here about record-numbers and id´s of Mr. Parrish´s records and mixes (which is great) - but now put this amount against the number of people talking about the record-titles, the meanings of his art some including black related subjects- you come up with a number 100:0 = 100-mixes vs 0-messages ? now have you ever heard of a simple phenomenon called silent majority ? no no, not us here ?? - preaching to the converted ? how should I know, when I see the majority relation about 100:0 I would like to talk about the black messages in the art - to learn and understand - because some music in music-culture is also connected with sending information with teaching and communication in various ways - I would like to understand more - 4 some understanding it´s good to communicate - and this is what this list is made 4 - to chat and learn about the music and art some artists have a focus on non-messages - want the music to speak without words - others mix the music with other things and thoughts that move them - but all the people pushing the black messages into the racistic corner, by calling it off-topic, too heavy or too academic to talk about it, or keep preaching on it´s only music are making the debate very strange and this avoids getting closer to the art - this won´t help in the deeper understanding of much music-art coming from Detroit - still thanx 4 the books - m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
Tristan, thanx and respect, but sorry again I got some more edits about it and sorry again this is becoming another long one including my style of writing :/ - after you said the amount of race-debates would be much higher then Theo-debates I just made a check with 3127 of the 313-postings I ´ve got in my account - Keywords - - racism - 12 - race - 71 - theo parrish - 119 - message - 1148 - black message - 5 - joke - 51 - funny - 58 and - - fun is mentioned 440 times (which I think is very important too of course) but - about the debate - I personally prefer mails as the one from Arne to the cynical or many missing reactions, when he was saying that it makes him sad, when he he remembers (I don´t) someone said that whites are not able to make this music - this crosses another deep going problem too - a problem related to the reflection of the racism - I´m sure many people feel this problem too - but see - there are so many problems like this, cauzed of a programmed world - we have so much corrupt information - hiding in the subconsciousness - but how can it get solved and understood by not communicating about it ? yes, there are also phenomenans as positive racism, victimising, or clichees connected to the matters - but I used to think we could isolate the faults and do something to try to make it better by digging as deep as much as the music does it too - but somehow the debate always get´s stuck - maybe also cauze of my faults - but the list could be here to reflect that - we can break up the monotony of shit-talking by talking about ourselves some more again..cant wait I see - so instead, there´s a constant mood of: finish it quick , this is off-topic, this is boring (ha) this is too offending, this is too much about us , I think, this is the main reason why the debate stays in a dangerous mood - - even in mainstream the debate is somehow more direct and visible at the moment when you take DMX ..they don´t know who we be or Mystikal for example - .. you keep bangin me against the wall did someone see the video ? - in the end he´s knocking on your door do some of you really think it´s just the US, that would need a change ? Even in nations where race-problems might seem less obvious, though they are also there, just look at the economic markets and how the doors are regulated - keeping Africa and other country´s in a safe distance to the game of global capitalism (unless it´s about selling weapons ) should the 313-list become the big hideout, where we don´t face subjects of life at all, though messages are included in much of the art ? Should we only go for the amusement only - pick out the serving elements instead ? Most people on the list are in an age, that they should have passed the innocent mind of a child - grown up men and women - I don´t want to join a talk about 313-music, as if it would be a talk about Playmobil only pleaze keep on the messages - as long as they are out there - reflect, correct, edit and flame my faults 2 with knowledge and some care don´t take the debate out m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
Tristan, thanx and respect, but sorry again I got some more edits about it and sorry again this is becoming another long one including my style of writing :/ - after you said the amount of race-debates would be much higher then Theo-debates I just made a check with 3127 of the 313-postings I ´ve got in my account - Keywords - - racism - 12 - race - 71 - theo parrish - 119 - message - 1148 - black message - 5 - joke - 51 - funny - 58 and - - fun is mentioned 440 times (which I think is very important too of course) but - about the debate - I personally prefer mails as the one from Arne to the cynical or many missing reactions, when he was saying that it makes him sad, when he he remembers (I don´t) someone said that whites are not able to make this music - this crosses another deep going problem too - a problem related to the reflection of the racism - I´m sure many people feel this problem too - but see - there are so many problems like this, cauzed of a programmed world - we have so much corrupt information - hiding in the subconsciousness - but how can it get solved and understood by not communicating about it ? yes, there are also phenomenans as positive racism, victimising, or clichees connected to the matters - but I used to think we could isolate the faults and do something to try to make it better by digging as deep as much as the music does it too - but somehow the debate always get´s stuck - maybe also cauze of my faults - but the list could be here to reflect that - we can break up the monotony of shit-talking by talking about ourselves some more again..cant wait I see - so instead, there´s a constant mood of: finish it quick , this is off-topic, this is boring (ha) this is too offending, this is too much about us , I think, this is the main reason why the debate stays in a dangerous mood - - even in mainstream the debate is somehow more direct and visible at the moment when you take DMX ..they don´t know who we be or Mystikal for example - .. you keep bangin me against the wall did someone see the video ? - in the end he´s knocking on your door do some of you really think it´s just the US, that would need a change ? Even in nations where race-problems might seem less obvious, though they are also there, just look at the economic markets and how the doors are regulated - keeping Africa and other country´s in a safe distance to the game of global capitalism (unless it´s about selling weapons ) should the 313-list become the big hideout, where we don´t face subjects of life at all, though messages are included in much of the art ? Should we only go for the amusement only - pick out the serving elements instead ? Most people on the list are in an age, that they should have passed the innocent mind of a child - grown up men and women - I don´t want to join a talk about 313-music, as if it would be a talk about Playmobil only pleaze keep on the messages - as long as they are out there - reflect, correct, edit and flame my faults 2 with knowledge and some care don´t take the debate out m planetz2002 -- LoveThemPlanetZ peoplez plantz peaze pluz m GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
we can break up the monotony of shit-talking by talking about ourselves some more again..cant wait I see - so instead, there´s a constant mood of: finish it quick , this is off-topic, this is boring (ha) this is too offending, this is too much about us , no i was referring to the posts about favorite colors, careers, etc from a couple weeks ago. that is too much about us. this isnt a chatroom... race has been talked into the fuggin ground as well, because yes it is a very essential and important subject. i'm not sure what is being argued here. actually, i see nothing being said at all, aside from some quotes from mainstream hiphop.. yes there is racism inherent in all societies and it is deeply entrenched in techno. and?? digging deeper..?? what are the issues being discussed, i missed something _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
as a very veteran studnet for history i have learend that. no matter what no matter when. groups of people dominated other groups of people. not giving them rights or just killing them. i think the question is bigger, as i see it time is not relevant here. people should stop looking at them selves as groups but as a personal units. but this is way way off topic!!! y - Original Message - From: xx xx [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? To : Tim, Rusty, Gerald, Nicole, Phonopsia, Arne, Berislav, Gerald, Alexandre, SCB, Armin, ... IF you want to have a better understanding about What,Why,When, you should take it at the roots, they've come from a long way, and they have still miles to go before IT ended up. You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. If you want to know more just grab : Just My Soul Responding : Rhythm and Blues, Black Consciousness, and Race Relations by Brian Ward What the Music Said : Black Popular Music and Black Public Culture by Mark Anthony Neal A Change Is Gonna Come : Music, Race the Soul of America by Craig Hansen Werner The Power of Black Music : Interpreting Its History from Africa to the United States by Samuel A., Jr. Floyd And if you don't like reading, listen Mahalia Jackson I've heard of a city called heaven , if you got soul, you'll get the MESSAGE. From: Cyborg K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:23:52 + In the USA, racial injustice (esp. in terms of black/white) does NOT simply stem from an awareness of superficial differences in skin color. It stems from our history of slavery and institutionalized racism that have conditioned people over many years (and even outside the USA, the history of colonization of the OTHER must be considered as a historical reality). People's mental attitudes reflect a historical reality that has conditioned them (in Mad Mike's words programmed) them to respond to race in certain ways. More generally, the WHITE MALE actually has historically been (and continues to be) in control economically and politically; therefore, when people internalize an attitude that the white male is superior, they are simply building a mental image that conforms to what already exists as historical/material reality. Those who command and control are respected, their ideas are accepted as being true and naturally by virtue of their real position of power in a system of hierarchies; that is what allows the programmers to so easily instill their set of values within the masses. So dealing with racism means confronting history and really existing power structures, not simply confronting irrational prejudices and attempting to be color blind. This would mean you would need to approach the question of race in techno from a completely different perspective than the one you are bringing. /cyborg k Original Message Follows From: Rusty Blasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: [313] can't we all just get along? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:01:15 -0500 Racial injustice stems from an awareness of the differences in superficial physical characteristics (i.e. skin color) and the subsequent exploitation and oppression of persons exhibiting such differences. In order to address racial matters as they relate to music, one must raise an awareness of the same physical traits which precede the problem in the first place. Now I know that racism stems from the mind, and prejudice isn't necessarily an inborn quality. Yet it seems to perpetuate, even among the open minded in our world, through sheer repetition of the issue at stake. In other words, I may not see a black person as any lesser a man than a white person, but I'll damn well be forced to ponder the thought the more incessantly I'm faced with the question. Suggestion is a very valuable tool (as proven by numerous examples in history and especially by the work of many modern psychologists). When reinforced over time, it solidifies into an implicit belief until it eventually establishes itself as a hardline value. Paul Virilio: Resistance is always possible! But we must engage in resistance first of all by developing the idea of a technological culture
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
In the USA, racial injustice (esp. in terms of black/white) does NOT simply stem from an awareness of superficial differences in skin color. It stems from our history of slavery and institutionalized racism that have conditioned people over many years (and even outside the USA, the history of colonization of the OTHER must be considered as a historical reality). People's mental attitudes reflect a historical reality that has conditioned them (in Mad Mike's words programmed) them to respond to race in certain ways. More generally, the WHITE MALE actually has historically been (and continues to be) in control economically and politically; therefore, when people internalize an attitude that the white male is superior, they are simply building a mental image that conforms to what already exists as historical/material reality. Those who command and control are respected, their ideas are accepted as being true and naturally by virtue of their real position of power in a system of hierarchies; that is what allows the programmers to so easily instill their set of values within the masses. So dealing with racism means confronting history and really existing power structures, not simply confronting irrational prejudices and attempting to be color blind. This would mean you would need to approach the question of race in techno from a completely different perspective than the one you are bringing. /cyborg k Original Message Follows From: Rusty Blasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: [313] can't we all just get along? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:01:15 -0500 Racial injustice stems from an awareness of the differences in superficial physical characteristics (i.e. skin color) and the subsequent exploitation and oppression of persons exhibiting such differences. In order to address racial matters as they relate to music, one must raise an awareness of the same physical traits which precede the problem in the first place. Now I know that racism stems from the mind, and prejudice isn't necessarily an inborn quality. Yet it seems to perpetuate, even among the open minded in our world, through sheer repetition of the issue at stake. In other words, I may not see a black person as any lesser a man than a white person, but I'll damn well be forced to ponder the thought the more incessantly I'm faced with the question. Suggestion is a very valuable tool (as proven by numerous examples in history and especially by the work of many modern psychologists). When reinforced over time, it solidifies into an implicit belief until it eventually establishes itself as a hardline value. Paul Virilio: Resistance is always possible! But we must engage in resistance first of all by developing the idea of a technological culture. However, at the present time, this idea is grossly underdeveloped. For example, we have developed an artistic and a literary culture. Nevertheless, the ideals of technological culture remain underdeveloped and therefore outside of popular culture and the practical ideals of democracy. This is also why society as a whole has no control over technological developments. And this is one of the gravest threats to democracy in the near future. _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] can't we all just get along?
To : Tim, Rusty, Gerald, Nicole, Phonopsia, Arne, Berislav, Gerald, Alexandre, SCB, Armin, ... IF you want to have a better understanding about What,Why,When, you should take it at the roots, they've come from a long way, and they have still miles to go before IT ended up. You don#8217;t have to be an academic to know that the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and #8217;60s is one of the most deeply complicated chapters in American history. Likewise, you need only a passing knowledge of this chapter to know that black music provided a crucial ROLE blocked by the governement, the establishment, the institutional economy, the media, and so on since then. But to take on the daunting task of definitively contextualizing the relationship between these two movements, you#8217;d likely have to be an academic and sadist. If you want to know more just grab : Just My Soul Responding : Rhythm and Blues, Black Consciousness, and Race Relations by Brian Ward What the Music Said : Black Popular Music and Black Public Culture by Mark Anthony Neal A Change Is Gonna Come : Music, Race the Soul of America by Craig Hansen Werner The Power of Black Music : Interpreting Its History from Africa to the United States by Samuel A., Jr. Floyd And if you don't like reading, listen Mahalia Jackson I've heard of a city called heaven , if you got soul, you'll get the MESSAGE. From: Cyborg K [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] can't we all just get along? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:23:52 + In the USA, racial injustice (esp. in terms of black/white) does NOT simply stem from an awareness of superficial differences in skin color. It stems from our history of slavery and institutionalized racism that have conditioned people over many years (and even outside the USA, the history of colonization of the OTHER must be considered as a historical reality). People's mental attitudes reflect a historical reality that has conditioned them (in Mad Mike's words programmed) them to respond to race in certain ways. More generally, the WHITE MALE actually has historically been (and continues to be) in control economically and politically; therefore, when people internalize an attitude that the white male is superior, they are simply building a mental image that conforms to what already exists as historical/material reality. Those who command and control are respected, their ideas are accepted as being true and naturally by virtue of their real position of power in a system of hierarchies; that is what allows the programmers to so easily instill their set of values within the masses. So dealing with racism means confronting history and really existing power structures, not simply confronting irrational prejudices and attempting to be color blind. This would mean you would need to approach the question of race in techno from a completely different perspective than the one you are bringing. /cyborg k Original Message Follows From: Rusty Blasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: [313] can't we all just get along? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:01:15 -0500 Racial injustice stems from an awareness of the differences in superficial physical characteristics (i.e. skin color) and the subsequent exploitation and oppression of persons exhibiting such differences. In order to address racial matters as they relate to music, one must raise an awareness of the same physical traits which precede the problem in the first place. Now I know that racism stems from the mind, and prejudice isn't necessarily an inborn quality. Yet it seems to perpetuate, even among the open minded in our world, through sheer repetition of the issue at stake. In other words, I may not see a black person as any lesser a man than a white person, but I'll damn well be forced to ponder the thought the more incessantly I'm faced with the question. Suggestion is a very valuable tool (as proven by numerous examples in history and especially by the work of many modern psychologists). When reinforced over time, it solidifies into an implicit belief until it eventually establishes itself as a hardline value. Paul Virilio: Resistance is always possible! But we must engage in resistance first of all by developing the idea of a technological culture. However, at the present time, this idea is grossly underdeveloped. For example, we have developed an artistic and a literary culture. Nevertheless, the ideals of technological culture remain underdeveloped and therefore outside of popular culture and the practical ideals of democracy. This is also why society as a whole has no control over technological developments. And this is one of the gravest threats to democracy in the near future. _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
RE: [313] can't we all just get along?
In this context, why does it matter what the artist's color is? Why is this list continuing a thread with the subject of 'Black techno artists'? Because to a great deal of people, both black, and white, for varying reasons, the color of the artist _does_ matter. Regardless of why it matters, that knowledge goes into the brain's collective of knowledge and serves to influence current and future opinions on a wide array of topics, not necessarily limited to that particular artist or piece of work. We are the sum of our parts, and a major part of the parts is information, which we use or abuse as we see fit as we plod through the cesspool of life. Maybe that's why it matters? Enough armchair philosophy for me, today. :) Tim -Original Message- From: Rusty Blasco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:01 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: [313] can't we all just get along? OK, here's the problem when it comes to discussing the race issue in techno music (or any artform, for that matter). The whole debate is a catch 22. It goes like this: Racial injustice stems from an awareness of the differences in superficial physical characteristics (i.e. skin color) and the subsequent exploitation and oppression of persons exhibiting such differences. In order to address racial matters as they relate to music, one must raise an awareness of the same physical traits which precede the problem in the first place. Now I know that racism stems from the mind, and prejudice isn't necessarily an inborn quality. Yet it seems to perpetuate, even among the open minded in our world, through sheer repetition of the issue at stake. In other words, I may not see a black person as any lesser a man than a white person, but I'll damn well be forced to ponder the thought the more incessantly I'm faced with the question. Suggestion is a very valuable tool (as proven by numerous examples in history and especially by the work of many modern psychologists). When reinforced over time, it solidifies into an implicit belief until it eventually establishes itself as a hardline value. I also realize art may best be realized as the result of a developmental process, containing elements both intellectual (analytical) and emotional (intuitive). Therefore, the true understanding of a piece cannot reach fruition (if such a state even exists) until the context surrounding its creation is made known. Subtract the context, and you're left with a piece bereft of meaning. Sure, there's always the subjective interpretation, but one of art's essential functions is to communicate in a manner beyond words the feelings and thoughts of an artist. So is techno possible without racism, or does the latter detract from the former? No, I don't have a solution. My thoughts on many things art-related are indecisive at best (though I tend to analyze art independent of its maker, at least at first). I am only at the beginning stages of a long journey of discovery. These are my thoughts, and I want to witness the resultant debate. Rusty _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
