date:20030725

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:32:39 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
For instance with L:1/4, [GD2] A B c would take four beats and [D2G] A B c 
would take five.
[snip]

I though from the previous discussion that the length of the chord
was the length of the smallest note (and that's what abcm2ps does).
Then, if you want a bigger length, you may add invisible rests.

-- 
Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
|   http://moinejf.free.fr/
Pépé Jef|   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [abcusers] Chord length

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:22:43 UTC, John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
[snip]
| {[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/
|
| for example.

Good example. I wish that chords as grace notes generally worked.  No
reason  they  shouldn't,  of  course,  but how many programs actually
implement them?
[snip]

abcm2ps :)

-- 
Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
|   http://moinejf.free.fr/
Pépé Jef|   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [abcusers] Installing abcm2ps on OS X

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 01:42:20 +0100, Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
[snip]
You might also want to change your shell to something less
squirmily haveanicedayish than tcsh.  chsh is the command to
do the change; bash is pretty reasonable though my fave back
when I was using Unix a lot was ksh (which just does what you
tell it without trying to get creative).

Did you ever try zsh?

-- 
Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
|   http://moinejf.free.fr/
Pépé Jef|   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:02:03 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time), I. 
Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
Abcm2ps does not support it. In abcm2ps [A2g] is
equivalent with [A2g2] .

No, it works, even if a bit ugly!

Please explain to me: would there be any difference
between [A2g] and [gA2] ?

In a previous discussion, some people wanted the first note to
give the length of the chord. But later, it seems that everybody
agreed using the length of the smallest note.

-- 
Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
|   http://moinejf.free.fr/
Pépé Jef|   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[abcusers] ANN: uk.music.notation

2003-07-25 Thread Dick Gaughan

(Slightly off-topic but relevant to many subscribers)

Some of you may be interested that there is currently a proposal
running for a new Usenet newsgroup in the uk.* hierarchy for
general discussion about all aspects of notation and software. The
intention is most definitely not to reproduce any of the
discussion which should rightly take place in abcusers and it is
hoped it will become a complementary forum where general
discussion about ABC will be on-topic but more detailed discussion
will be refered here.

If anyone wishes to take part in the discussion, it's currently
running on uk.net.news.config. If you would simply like to support
the proposal without getting involved in the brawling which tends
to characterise unnc, you can read the RFD on uk.music.folk or
uk.music.misc and simply hitting reply (remembering to trim most
of the original post!) and adding a line indicating support would
be enough. Of course, if you want to oppose it, you'll have to
subscribe to unnc and put your arguments there.

Hope to see those of you interested participating in discussion on
uk.music.notation if the creation proposal is successful.

-- 
Dick Gaughan
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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 05:58:42AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Irwin Oppenheim wrote -
 
 Using ! and !..! in one and the same
 tune may lead to disaster if you make a small typo. So,
 while ! should definitely be supported, I encourage
 you to support * as well.
 
 It just seems to make a messy situation more complicated.

I agree. I'm unhappy and confused about this.

I have just become able to use ! staffbreaks, in the last few days, with
their addition to some of the abc-ps family (or perhaps, my awareness of
that, following the discussion here).

Simultaneously with this, I'm hearing that they shouldn't be mixed
with !decoration!s. But if I need decorations in a tune, and want to
control the printing layout, and keep it readable ? Pick any 2, sure.
But, if all 3 can be done, it's asking a lot of people to suggest they
not do them.

I really don't think the idea of constructs that shouldn't be used in
the same tune is a flyer. If I have a tune with decorations, and want to
add a staffbreak somewhere, I'm just not going to delete the decorations.
And I'm one of the people that's at least trying to pay attention. I
suppose what I'm saying is that asking the general abc-writing public to
have symathy with the poor developers in coping with stuff that's murder
to parse properly is just something that won't happen.

And, is this reccomendation on the level of a single tune, or does it,
actually, apply on the file level ? How about alternate tunes in a file,
one using just ! staffbreaks and the next using just !...! decorations,
will software be happy with this ? BarFly wants the user to tell it
which, I gather ?



And along with this, the new draft says the the character to use for
staff-break is something that no software I have implements. So I'm not
in a position to follow such a standard however much I'd like to.


I'm not very sure what I think of a spec. that tries to tell
developers what meanings they have to change in their existing code, but
_if_ that's where we are ...

Either the ! is used for both purposes and parsers will have to accept
this as normal, rather than tryng to persuade people not to do it, or
something'll have to change ...

 As far as I can tell, !...! is much less widely used, the collections that 
 use it and the software that implements it are still maintained.  It could be 
 changed.  I hear the cry Why should we?  I reply For the greater good of 
 abc. 

I agree. I'd think ! should be staffbreak, both for the amount of
existing stuff, and usability with abc2win, and for Jack's point about
visual intrusiveness.

And that then suggests *decoration*, which - as Bryan says -
_could_ be done in abcm2ps, etc, *if* Jeff agrees; and visually, I think
it works better; by analogy with my emphasis in the previous line - it
follows the general ascii conventional usage.



But, the raw fact is, in the case of conflict between software and spec.
people will do what their software implements. There's no choice. And
they seem to be headed in different directions - which is where we came
in.

-- 
Richard Robinson
The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem
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[abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Guido Gonzato

Hello,

as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
leaving it out.

Suggestions are highly appreciated.

Later,
  Guido =8-)

-- 
Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager
Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN.
Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy)
Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri

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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Bernard Hill

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]
, Guido Gonzato [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Hello,

as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
leaving it out.

Suggestions are highly appreciated.

Later,
  Guido =8-)


You're going to have to remind us what u: does, I can find no mention of
it...


Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
Author of Music Publisher system
Music Software written by musicians for musicians
http://www.braeburn.co.uk
Selkirk, Scotland

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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Guido Gonzato

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:

 Hello,
 
 as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
 for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
 the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
 leaving it out.
 
 Suggestions are highly appreciated.
 
 Later,
   Guido =8-)
 
 
 You're going to have to remind us what u: does, I can find no mention of
 it...

from the 1.7.6 draft:

$ As a short cut to writing accents or other symbols which avoids the !symbol!
$ syntax (see Accent above), the letters H-Z and h-w and the symbol ~ can be
$ assigned with the U: and u: fields (the U: defines how the symbols are
$ printed and the u: defines how they are played).

Later,
  Guido =8-)

-- 
Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager
Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN.
Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy)
Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri

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[abcusers] Re: Chord length - waaaah!

2003-07-25 Thread Bryancreer

Jef Moine wrote -

I though from the previous discussion that the length of the chord
was the length of the smallest note (and that's what abcm2ps does).
Then, if you want a bigger length, you may add invisible rests.

In a previous discussion, some people wanted the first note to
give the length of the chord. But later, it seems that everybody
agreed using the length of the smallest note.

Not how I recall it and I certainly did not agree that. Invisible rests were not, at the time, part of the standard. At least it confirms that different length notes in a chord should not be illegal.

I have just been trying to look up the original discussion in the archive. It appears under the threads "Abacus 1.0.0 launch" and "suggestions for [A4A2] notation " about a year ago.

The archive is not easy to follow. The discussion did not seem to come to any particular conclusion. I had started from "highest note" defines chord length and had been persuaded that this would not work. I suggested "first listed note" and there seemed to be a concensus in that direction. I changed Abacus accordingly. Then someone started insisting that "shortest note" was best without giving very clear reasons. I said that I was not prepared to change Abacus again until given a good reason to do so. After that, the thread rather fizzled out.

My case for "first listed note" is that it is unambiguous and independant of the musical content. The question to consider is "What is clearest and easiest to understand for the user?"

Bryan Creer

Re: [abcusers] Installing abcm2ps on OS X

I. Oppenheim writes:
| On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote:
|
|PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin
|export PATH
|
| No Jack, that's bourne shell syntax!!!
| A day ago I gave the correct solution for tcsh in a
| separate posting.
...
| At the moment, bash is the de facto standard in the
| UNIX community. You can change to it with the following
| command:

I think that's really only true for linux, though of course
bash  is  readily available for other systems.  Vendors and
repackagers can install whatever shell  they  like  as  the
default,  and  a  lot of them do.  For OSX, and most of the
*BSD clones it's csh or tcsh.  For Sun, I think it's  still
ksh,  though  I haven't used a Solaris box for a while, and
they could have switched to bash by now.

One of the fun aspects of working on unixoid systems is the
variety  of command languages that you have available, each
with its own flock of partisans.  ;-)

Of course, in the long run this is to our  advantage.   Had
the  original  unix  back in the 70's had a builtin command
language, we would still be stuck with it, with no  way  to
improve  it  (at  least until linux came along).  But since
people could implement their own, we have several that  are
greatly improved over what the original designers provided.

This is much of why unix users haven't  generally  switched
over  to  full-time  GUI  use.  Pretty pictures are fun and
flashy, but if you actually want  to  accomplish  something
without  constantly gritting your teeth about the idiocy of
the user interface, you need a command  language  that  you
can type and that can remember things for you.

On another list, there was a recent UI discussion,  about
the various keyboards that are available on accordions.  We
got into a fairly funny  (if  short)  thread  triggered  by
someone  contemplating  augmenting  the  accordion  with  a
mouse.  After all, keyboards are keyboards, and if a  mouse
is  such  a marvelous addition to a computer keyboard, just
imagine how it could help an accordion (or piano) player.

My main  contribution  was  something  I  plagiarized  from
someone else whose name I don't recall: The modern computer
GUI, with its keyboard and mouse, is very well  designed  -
for  a user with three hands.  The real problem is how slow
users have been to make the necessary hardware upgrades  to
take advantage of this clever design.

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Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics

Anselm Lingnau writes:
| John Chambers  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|
|  Hey, glad to see you're doing this. I've volunteered in the past, but
|  the  RSCDS didn't respond.
|
| So far I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, with no official RSCDS
| sanction. I want to have an »Original Tunes for RSCDS Dances« book
| that saves me hauling 40+ booklets to those workshops where the
| teacher makes up his mind what to teach over breakfast on the same day
| (no kidding).
...
| I'm only doing the melody and chords. I try to stick to what is in the
| books but don't lose sleep over stuff that I feel needs changed.

So we really have the same motivation and approach.  ABC  works  best
for  a  fake  book  style,  which  is what is preferred by most SCD
musicians that I know. I'll have to remember to steal some tunes from
your  site.   (And  you're  welcome  to any of mine, of course.) What
you're doing was one of my main motivations for  doing  my  ABC  Tune
Finder. It was obvious that a lot of the tunes that I might want were
around on other people's web sites. The only problem was finding them
quickly  when I wanted one of them.  Very often you can find the name
of a dance's recommended tune, but how do you find the tune itself?

I've seen a few discussions of how slow the RSCDS has  been  to  take
advantage  of the Net.  My usual comment has been something like:  Of
course they're a bunch of conservative fuddy-duddies who are  decades
behind  the  times.   The RSCDS exists to preserve a tradition.  It's
their role to be conservative fuddy-duddies who  are  decades  behind
the times. It's up to us radical revisionists to develop their online
system, and when they're good and ready, we can give them a  copy  of
what  we've done.  (When this happens, I expect they'll just invite 2
or 3 of us to do the work.  What I'd be tempted to do is set up a SCD
wiki and invite all the strathspey subscribers to contribute.)

| I haven't yet decided what to do about publication of the ABC files.
| I suppose the thing to do would be to integrate them into Alan
| Paterson's DanceData somehow (or at least the WWW front end) and see
| what happens :^)

Yes; he already links to the  Fiddler's  Companion  site.   Maybe  we
should  both  be  discussing with him the easiest way to interconnect
all of our sites.  I have sets for about 600 dances in my  collection
(a bare start ;-).  I've developed an approach that works for me. But
it might be time to start talking about linking the SCD web sites.

|  Are you doing the dance descriptions, too?
|
| No -- different construction site. I need the dance descriptions only
| when I'm teaching, and then I usually know what I want to do and just
| take the book along.

I get the impression that a lot of teachers have put  their  favorite
dances into their computers, and some are online.  But they all do it
differently.  I wonder how long it will take for this to get  into  a
form  that can actually be used?  I've collected a few myself, but my
dance descriptions are in N different formats.

I have already had one Übergeek moment at a dance, when the teacher
gave  up  on  a  dance and wanted to do a specific simpler dance, but
didn't quite remember it. I thought it was one in my collection, so I
whipped  out  my cute Kyocera smartphone (which runs PalmOS and has
some ABC software installed), used the browser to find the  dance  on
my  MIT  site, and handed her the phone with the dance description on
the screen.  I got lots of geek points for that one.

I could have found a set of tunes for it, too, but so far  that's  of
limited value.  The phone's tiny screen doesn't work as a music book.
I can play the tunes through the phone's tiny speaker, so it's useful
as  a  reminder.   But  it's not usable for people who don't know the
tunes.  Some day, we'll have a portable that  will  fit  on  a  music
stand,  with  wireless connectivity (and good wireless coverage), and
then it'll be possible to dispense with the printed pages.


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Re: [abcusers] Version 2.0.0 voice overlay and lyrics

Bernard Hill writes:
|
| Invisible barlines? Are you suggesting [|] as a non-printing barline?

This is implemented by a number of abc programs already. There's also
a  lot  of  use of x as a non-printing rest, and y as a non-printing,
non-playing (i.e., just spacing) pseudo-rest.  The latter is a bit of
a kludge.

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Re: [abcusers] ANN: uk.music.notation

 Some of you may be interested that there is currently a proposal
 running for a new Usenet newsgroup in the uk.* hierarchy for
 general discussion about all aspects of notation and software.

I think it's a good idea, provided that the newsgroup
will be moderated (in the sense that all spam will be
filtered out). Otherwise it will just become another
advertizing channel for the spammers of this world.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] Chord lengths again

Jean-Francois Moine writes:
|
| Please explain to me: would there be any difference
| between [A2g] and [gA2] ?
|
| In a previous discussion, some people wanted the first note to
| give the length of the chord. But later, it seems that everybody
| agreed using the length of the smallest note.

Hmmm ...  I seem to recall that it sorta faded out  without
any  strong  conclusion.   There  are  arguments  for  both
approaches, and examples where each would be somewhat  more
convenient,  but  no  really  decisive  examples  of  one's
superiority.

I'd always supported the first-note-is-length idea, because
that makes it possible to control the results.  If I want a
chord in which one note is sounded briefly  and  the  other
held,  the  shortest-note approach gives me no way to write
it.  [DB4] and [B4D] give the same result, a 1-count chord,
and there's no way to write this so it's length is 4. Well,
you could write [B-D]B3, but that's not nearly as nice. It
looks like syncopation when it isn't.

This example is something I'd like to do, in order to write
detailed  transcriptions of some fiddle music.  It's fairly
common in several fiddle styles to use low  notes  (usually
open  strings) for a rhythmic effect, touching them briefly
on the main beats while the melody continues.   This  often
produces  a long melody note with a very short bass note.
If [B4D] has length 4, this works;  if  it  has  length  1,
there's no good way to transcribe this effect.

But this is somewhat a fringe case, and I  can  see  why  a
non-fiddler  might  consider  it  not  worth supporting.  I
wouldn't use it very often,  because  I  prefer  just  the
melody,  and I'll add such gimmicks myself, thank you very
much.  OTOH, sometimes it's nice to be able to write out  a
detailed  transcription for novice fiddlers.  The result is
very messy and hard to  read,  but  useful  as  a  teaching
device.


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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Steve Mansfield

In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Guido 
Gonzato [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
leaving it out.
Funny you should ask, because I thought that when I read it in the spec 
- personally I don't think I've ever seen it in a single file that's 
come my way.

Again, purely personally, I'm sure I'd never ever notice its absence if 
you did leave it out, but perhaps others may disagree ...

--
Steve Mansfield
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lesession.co.uk - abc music notation tutorial,
  the uk.music.folk newsgroup FAQ, and other goodies


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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote:

 If I have a tune with decorations, and want to add a
 staffbreak somewhere, I'm just not going to delete
 the decorations.

Of course you won't delete the decorations!

All I am proposing is that you should be able to use
!...! for decorations and * to add staffbreaks at
the same time. Isn't that reasonable?

Of course, people who don't use any decorations can
without any problems continue to use ! to add
staffbreaks.

So the bottom line is:  it would be nice if both !
and * could be used to notate a staffbreak. The
people who do not use !...! won't be bothered by it,
and the people who use decorations will have an easier
time.

Enjoy your weekend!

 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

Guido Gonzato asks:
| as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
| for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
| the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
| leaving it out.

It turns out I can ask my Tune Finder about  this,  because
it  keeps a list of the header lines used in each tune.  It
actually found one, and it was in my  own  collection!  But
this isn't any sort of personal claim, because it's in:

http://trillian.mit.edu//~jc/music/abc/mirror/abcusers/MLargubbensBrudpolska_1.abc

As you can see, this directory is for tunes extracted  from
this  mailing list.  The tune is a polska from Henrik.  The
funny thing is that he uses both U: and u:  to define the U
symbol, which is used exactly once. So the definitions take
up more characters than they save.  Not  that  it  matters.
This is clearly an example of the uses of U:  and u: so who
cares if it saves any space or typing?

Among the 150,000 or so tunes that the  Tune  Finder  knows
of, this is the only example of u:  that was found.  (There
are actually three matches, but  they're  all  exactly  the
same tune.)

If anyone else has used it in your online  tunes,  my  Tune
Finder doesn't know about your collection.  (So send me the
URL.)


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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote:

  Hello,
  
  as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
  for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
  the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
  leaving it out.
  
  Suggestions are highly appreciated.
  
  Later,
Guido =8-)
  
 
  You're going to have to remind us what u: does, I can find no mention of
  it...

 from the 1.7.6 draft:

 $ As a short cut to writing accents or other symbols which avoids the !symbol!
 $ syntax (see Accent above), the letters H-Z and h-w and the symbol ~ can be
 $ assigned with the U: and u: fields (the U: defines how the symbols are
 $ printed and the u: defines how they are played).

 Later,
   Guido =8-)

I haven't made use of it (and I guess I won't)  ;-)
I can't find any abc-file that uses it.

Arent


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Re: [abcusers] Installing abcm2ps on OS X

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 01:29:11PM +, John Chambers wrote:
 
 This is much of why unix users haven't  generally  switched
 over  to  full-time  GUI  use.  Pretty pictures are fun and
 flashy, but if you actually want  to  accomplish  something
 without  constantly gritting your teeth about the idiocy of
 the user interface, you need a command  language  that  you
 can type and that can remember things for you.

Well, yes. But it does depend what sort of things you're doing.
I'm terrifyingly geeky, according to most of my friends (though
not, of course, to a  _real_ geek), but I'd _hate_ to, eg,
edit .wav files via a cli.

But _full-time_ GUI use, of course not. Stick with the best of both
worlds.

-- 
Richard Robinson
The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem
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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Phil Taylor

Guido Gonzato wrote:

as you know, Irwin Oppenheim and I are trying to put together a proposal
for ABC 2 standard. I have a simple question: has anybody actually seen
the u: (lowercase u) field in ABC files? We are considering whether
leaving it out.

Suggestions are highly appreciated.

The u: was originally suggested by Chris Walshaw to be used in place
of m: for macros.  (I think he like the symmetry of using U: for
symbol definitions and u: for macros.)  I didn't mind this, and would
have been prepared to change BarFly for the next standard if the
standard had not totally muddied the water by introducing !...!
and using U: for that, and then defining u: as being only for playing
purposes.

I don't think anyone has implemented w: in a program, and as far as
I'm concerned it can go.

Phil Taylor


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Re: [abcusers] Re: Chord length - waaaah!

2003-07-25 Thread Phil Taylor

Wil Macaulay wrote:

I agree with Bryan's conclusions (and that's what I did for Skink).

Me too.  I _think_ that's what BarFly does (although since it's not
a feature I make use of I'd really have to go and check).

Phil Taylor


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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

  So the bottom line is:  it would be nice if both !
  and * could be used to notate a staffbreak. The
  people who do not use !...! won't be bothered by it,
  and the people who use decorations will have an easier
  time.

 We're into the territory of defining new stuff here. As I said before, I
 suggest it may be preferrable to invent *decoration* instead.

There is a good historical basis for precisely using
* as a staff break operator, alongside the !
operator. Namely, in abc2mtex it was already in use to
force right-justified line breaks.

It's a piece of cake to implement * as an alias for
the ! operator, so I don't think it's worth a long
discussion. There are more important things happening
in the world, even in the ABC world.

Let's take a pragmatic stance. Users that don't like
the * operator need not use it, users that like it
should be able to use it. Period.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote:

 I don't think anyone has implemented w: in a program,
 and as far as I'm concerned it can go.

I think you meant u:, not w:...
Irwin
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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 07:15:34PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
   So the bottom line is:  it would be nice if both !
   and * could be used to notate a staffbreak. The
   people who do not use !...! won't be bothered by it,
   and the people who use decorations will have an easier
   time.
 
  We're into the territory of defining new stuff here. As I said before, I
  suggest it may be preferrable to invent *decoration* instead.
 
 There is a good historical basis for precisely using
 * as a staff break operator, alongside the !
 operator. Namely, in abc2mtex it was already in use to
 force right-justified line breaks.

I know that's what abc.txt says. a * at the end of each
line of abc notation will force a right-justified line-break.
But actually, it's the end of each line that's the linebreak -
the * forces the justification. Try it :-

X:1
T:Test
K:C
cdef gabc'- |*c'bag fedc |]

$ abc2mtex test.abc
error in input file test.abc: line no. 4 - syntax error - note cannot
follow justification


-- 
Richard Robinson
The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem
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[abcusers] Re: Chord length - waaaah!

2003-07-25 Thread Bryancreer

Wil Macaulay wrote -

Another historic moment!  Phil and Bryan and I all agree on something!  Put it in the
standard, quick, before we lose it!

Oh happy day!

Over to you Jef?

Bryan Creer

Re: [abcusers] Anyone used u:?

2003-07-25 Thread Phil Taylor

Irwin Oppenheim wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote:

 I don't think anyone has implemented w: in a program,
 and as far as I'm concerned it can go.

I think you meant u:, not w:...

Sorry, yes.

Phil Taylor


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[abcusers] asterisks (and obelisks :-)

I have quite a few danish tunes fron at least 1999
disabling abc-'linebreaks' this way and end with a double **
What's the use of  **

X:2
T:Tellings hopsa
S:Hans Ole
R:Hopsa
O:Denmark
M:2/4
L:1/8
K:D
D | B2 c/B/^A/B/ | G2D2 | B2 c/B/^A/B/ |ed cB |\
A2B/A/^G/A/ | F2D2 | A2B/A/^G/A/| fe dc |\
B2c/B/^A/B/ | G2D2 | B2c/B/^A/B/ | ed cB |\
A2B/A/^G/A/ | f3 e | dc BA | G2 z ::\
K:D
A|fA fA | aA fA | gA eA | fA dA | \
fA fA | aA fA | gA Bc | d2 z::\
K:G
d3 e | d2B2 | b2 ag | f2 z2 |\
c3d | c2A2 | fe dc | B3z |\
d3e | d2B2 | e3f | e2c2 | f3f | (3fed (3cBA |\
G2 [B2g2]:|**

X:3
T:Klaphopsa
S:HO
R:Hopsa
O:Denmark
M:4/4
K:A
a2e2 a2e2 | dcdf ecA2 | a2e2 a2e2 | dcdBA2z2 ::\
Acec Acec | d2f2 f4 | eaga bagf | e2a2a4 |\
Acec Acec | d2f2 f4 | eagf edcB | A2A2 A2z2 :|**

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] asterisks (and obelisks :-)

2003-07-25 Thread John Walsh

Arent Storm writes:
 
 I have quite a few danish tunes fron at least 1999
 disabling abc-'linebreaks' this way and end with a double **
 What's the use of  **
 

Left over from abc2mtex: it was for the last bar of the tune, to
end it with a right-justified double bar without starting a new staff.  I
think it was dropped in the final version of abc2mtex.

Cheers,
John Walsh

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[abcusers] voice properties

The current draft standard for multiple voices states:

V: fields can contain voice specifiers such as name, clef, and so on. For
example,

V:T1 name=Tenor I clef=treble-8

indicates that voice `T1' will be drawn on a staff labelled Tenor I, using the
treble clef with a small `8' underneath. Player programs will transpose the
notes by one octave. Possible voice definitions include:

name=voice name
The voice name is printed on the left of the first staff only.
The character `\n' produces a newline.
subname=voice subname
   The voice subname is printed on the left
  of all staves but the first one.
up/down
   Forces the note stem direction.
clef=
   Specifies a clef; see section Clefs for details.
The name specifier may be abbreviated to nm=. The subname specifier may be
abbreviated to snm=.


I see a few unnessacary inconsistencies omissions in it:

1) where does T1 come from
2) I expect all options of the form: option=value
  so up/down should be stem=[up|down]
  draw=[merge|hide|cuesize|preserved] to accomodate hidden voices, cuesize
3) the abbreviations do not contribute much
4) program v n is unclear to me;
  program=# channel=# bank=# would be much more readable and expandable)
missing features:
   transpose=-2  (to note that clarinet is not playing the same as a flute)
defaults to 0
   stafflines=1  (accomodate gregorian chant and percussion) defaults to 5
   instrument=clarinet (make clear which instrument should play)
   (not nessecarily the same as name=clarinet)

so:

V:1 name=Tenor I subname=T1 clef=treble-8 transpose=-2
V:1 draw=hide draw=cuesize program=71 channel=5 instrument=clarinet
when using the whole bunch of options.

Any program can safely ignore any options it does not handle but I think it's
wise to define now how such a feature may be used in future.

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] asterisks (and obelisks :-)

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 08:34:03PM +0200, Arent Storm wrote:
 I have quite a few danish tunes fron at least 1999
 disabling abc-'linebreaks' this way and end with a double **

Wahey ! They go back further than that. 1994, I think :)
Nothing goes away, even when you update it ...


 T:Tellings hopsa

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/gettune/090a.html

 T:Klaphopsa

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/gettune/0920.html

have versions that are workable with more modern programs.


I see John's answered the question, which is lucky, because I was busy
grepping the source ... I'd completely forgotten what it meant.

Cor, it's ages since I played any hopsas.

-- 
Richard Robinson
The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem
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[abcusers] informationfield extension

I'd like to catch the use the the Y: field for future extensions like
Y:someinfofield=some info field value
This way we've maintained compitiblity with existing abc files 
while having the possibilty of future expansion.

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] voice properties

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Arent Storm wrote:

 1) where does T1 come from
T1 in V:T1 is just an identifier that will make the ABC
source code more readable.

As you know the name of the voice and other options
need to be spelled out only once, so having readable
identifiers throughout a big piece of ABC source code
is a big plus.

 2) I expect all options of the form: option=value
   so up/down should be stem=[up|down]
Agreed.

   draw=[merge|hide|cuesize|preserved] to accomodate
   hidden voices, cuesize
These things should be done with %% directives.

 3) the abbreviations do not contribute much
Well, ABC users are lazy :-)

 4) program v n is unclear to me;
   program=# channel=# bank=# would be much more readable and expandable)
Will come back on this later.

transpose=-2  (to note that clarinet is not playing the same as a flute)
 defaults to 0
Will add.

stafflines=1  (accomodate gregorian chant and percussion) defaults to 5
Will come back on this later.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] informationfield extension

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Arent Storm wrote:

 I'd like to catch the use the the Y: field for future extensions like
 Y:someinfofield=some info field value
 This way we've maintained compitiblity with existing abc files
 while having the possibilty of future expansion.

Standard says already:

Many of these field identifiers are currently unused,
so programs that comply with this standard should
ignore the occurrence of information fields not defined
here. This will make it possible to extend the number
of information fields in the future.

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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

2003-07-25 Thread Bert Van Vreckem

Phil Taylor wrote:
Changing abcm2ps to use *...* instead of !...! (it accepts ! for a linebreak
already) would be a matter of minutes work for Jef.  Changing ABC2Win is
not possible.  Changing all of the existing files which use !...! to use
*...* is just a matter of search and replace;  there are not many of them
and we know where they are.  Changing the existing ABC2Win files is not
possible because there are many thousands of them and they're everywhere.
It's the only logical way.
I use the !decoration! syntax in my tunes. If the rest of you would 
finally agree to use *decoration* instead, I am more than willing to 
replace all instances in my collection. It's just as Phil says: since 
abc2win isn't supported anymore, we can't change it. !decoration! is 
more recent and I really think that most abc tunes on the web that use 
it are still maintained. Adapting it really shouldn't be a probem.

Come on guys, let's get this over with finally!

Cheers,

bert

--
Bert Van Vreckem http://flanders.blackmill.net/
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and
oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital
ingredient in beer. -- Dave Barry
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[abcusers] the two uses of !

2003-07-25 Thread Jack Campin

 What seems to have happened is that I and a few  others  pointed  out
 that  we  don't  really have a serious problem with the two uses of !
 right now, because a simple heuristic can tell which meaning was used
 in  a  tune.   But  some people misinterpreted this to mean that both
 could be legal in the standard language.  But using both in a  single
 tune is a parsing disaster.

Which could be avoided simply by having the !symbol! things (or such
of them as we want to retain) use a different bracketing character.

I want to be able to use ! as a linebreak in the very same pieces
I want to process with abcm2ps (which is the only ABC application
that can handle some of the stuff I've got).  If !symbol! stays
the only way I could do that would be by hacking the source and
recompiling a version that used +symbol+ instead, creating a new
dialect.

The fraction of the ABC corpus that would need to be changed to fit
a change of delimiter by abcm2ps is peanuts.  abc2win is still in
heavy use, and whatever other maintenance Jim does on it, he's hardly
likely to allow it to become incompatible with new Windows releases,
and it's not going to suddenly become incapable of handling the sort
of basic melodies most ABC users still want to process, so !-linebreak
tunes are going to keep coming for years.

-
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data  recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro.
-- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please --


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Re: [abcusers] informationfield extension

- Original Message - 
From: I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ABCusers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [abcusers] informationfield extension

 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Arent Storm wrote:

  I'd like to catch the use the the Y: field for future extensions like
  Y:someinfofield=some info field value
  This way we've maintained compitiblity with existing abc files
  while having the possibilty of future expansion.

 Standard says already:

 Many of these field identifiers are currently unused,
 so programs that comply with this standard should
 ignore the occurrence of information fields not defined
 here. This will make it possible to extend the number
 of information fields in the future.

I think you didn't got the point.
I was trying to reserve Y not for one specific extension
but to allow for new things to come
  Y: CD=BHA10051
  Y: Accelerando=10
  Y: Allegro=100
or whatever makes sense at some point in the future.
Almost any other acb-field is been (mis)used for various things,
so make Y: kind of 'reserved' (as wel as E and J)
Thus to instruct new software to handle Y: to parse 
yet unknown tune-generic parameters just as 
V: does for a voice within a tune

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

From: Bert Van Vreckem [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [abcusers] Re: About the choice of '!'

 Phil Taylor wrote:
  Changing abcm2ps to use *...* instead of !...! (it accepts ! for a linebreak
  already) would be a matter of minutes work for Jef.  Changing ABC2Win is
  not possible.  Changing all of the existing files which use !...! to use
  *...* is just a matter of search and replace;  there are not many of them
  and we know where they are.  Changing the existing ABC2Win files is not
  possible because there are many thousands of them and they're everywhere.

  It's the only logical way.

 I use the !decoration! syntax in my tunes. If the rest of you would
 finally agree to use *decoration* instead, I am more than willing to
 replace all instances in my collection. It's just as Phil says: since
 abc2win isn't supported anymore, we can't change it. !decoration! is
 more recent and I really think that most abc tunes on the web that use
 it are still maintained. Adapting it really shouldn't be a probem.

 Come on guys, let's get this over with finally!

* has a few problems too but, less intervening than !
so I second the vote for *...* instead of !...!

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] voice properties

From: I. Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ABCusers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [abcusers] voice properties
 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Arent Storm wrote:
  1) where does T1 come from
 T1 in V:T1 is just an identifier that will make the ABC
 source code more readable.

 As you know the name of the voice and other options
 need to be spelled out only once, so having readable
 identifiers throughout a big piece of ABC source code
 is a big plus.
*NO* its not a plus; it's a minus
I'm not convinced at all.
The three different voicing methods are more than enough.
Stick with ciphering convention please!

  2) I expect all options of the form: option=value
so up/down should be stem=[up|down]
 Agreed.

draw=[merge|hide|cuesize|preserved] to accomodate
hidden voices, cuesize
 These things should be done with %% directives.
why set merge at V: lines and other related things in %% 
be as consequent as possible.

  3) the abbreviations do not contribute much
 Well, ABC users are lazy :-)
and incomprehenseable

  4) program v n is unclear to me;
program=# channel=# bank=# would be much more readable and expandable)
 Will come back on this later.

 transpose=-2  (to note that clarinet is not playing the same as a flute)
  defaults to 0
 Will add.

 stafflines=1  (accomodate gregorian chant and percussion) defaults to 5
 Will come back on this later.
Most important thing is to keep the syntax clean  expandable without
compromising existing software.

Arent

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[abcusers] expandable information field

2003-07-25 Thread Jack Campin

 I'd like to catch the use the the Y: field for future extensions
 like Y:someinfofield=some info field value
 This way we've maintained compitiblity with existing abc files
 while having the possibilty of future expansion.

Perhaps Phil (as the person whose program has the strangest parser)
is probably in the best position to answer this, but it occurred to
me a while ago that maybe we don't need a whole new letter for such
uses.  Would it be feasible to allow multi-character header fields
so long as they were introduced by a leading :?

  X:1
  T:Thingummy's Reel
  M:C|
  :DanceInstructions: RSCDS Book 137, 2042
  K:A
  ...

That only needs one-character lookahead, which I think was what
Phil was concerned about?

(I'm going to be away for a week, OS 1:5 sheet 48 302241,
a mile off the nearest road with no modem).


-
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data  recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro.
-- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please --


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Re: [abcusers] expandable information field

From: Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ABC Users [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:58 AM
Subject: [abcusers] expandable information field

  I'd like to catch the use the the Y: field for future extensions
  like Y:someinfofield=some info field value
  This way we've maintained compitiblity with existing abc files
  while having the possibilty of future expansion.

 Perhaps Phil (as the person whose program has the strangest parser)
 is probably in the best position to answer this, but it occurred to
 me a while ago that maybe we don't need a whole new letter for such
 uses.  Would it be feasible to allow multi-character header fields
 so long as they were introduced by a leading :?
Wouldn't  that break use of existing software?

   X:1
   T:Thingummy's Reel
   M:C|
   :DanceInstructions: RSCDS Book 137, 2042
   K:A
   ...
 That only needs one-character lookahead, which I think was what
 Phil was concerned about?
I can imagine the trouble that it will give...

 (I'm going to be away for a week, OS 1:5 sheet 48 302241,
 a mile off the nearest road with no modem).
Enjoy! 

Arent

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Re: [abcusers] expandable information field