from:"Pete Brunet"

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessible2

2014-07-08 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Rich, I'll be in contact with Alex for the handoff.  -Pete

On 7/8/14, 11:36 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:

 Hi Pete, Janina,

 As you may know ARIA 1.1 will require some modifications to platform
 accessibility APIs. Alex Surkov, from Mozilla, has agreed to take over
 Pete's position in the Linux Foundation to make the necessary changes,
 as well as other enhancements, required for IA2 implementers. He also
 needs to coordinate with the ATK/ATSPI effort to ensure consistency
 across platforms.

 Alex would like some assistance on process for producing documentation
 and updated IDL documents and any other processes and coordination
 efforts in the Linux Foundation.

 Please lend him any assistance you can to help get him started.

 Best,

 Rich


 Rich Schwerdtfeger


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

2013-10-15 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Rich, During another activity I was looking at caption and summary
last night and happened to end up on a W3C site that documents how
tables should be described:
www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques

This shows various techniques:

1) Precede the table with a paragraph and use aria-describedby
referencing that paragraph
2) Use the caption tag
3) Use the details tag in a caption tag (and the example shows a summary
tag under the details tag)
4/5) Embed the table in a figure tag which has a figcaption tag

The third case is the only one showing a summary tag, but it's a child
of the caption tag.  I found an example here:
http://archive.msdn.microsoft.com/mag201212HTML5/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=5925

Looking at the UIA properties of a page with that markup, i.e. a
hierarchy of caption, details, summary, using Inspect with both IE and
FF I saw the full caption text including the summary in the accName /
UIA Name.  From the perspective of caption that makes sense but having
summary as a substring of caption doesn't.

Is this a proper use of the summary tag?  Or is
aria-describedby/labeledby the proper technique?  Is there a better
document that I should be looking at?

Pete

On 10/12/13 5:00 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Thanks Pete.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error.  The deprecation note on the
 caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used
 and the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a
 labeledBy relation should be used instead.  This is backwards and I
 will submit a replacement soon.

 Pete
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

2013-10-15 Thread Pete Brunet

Thank you Janina, That was very helpful.

On 10/15/13 1:05 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
Hi Pete, All:

Janina chiming in here to try and provide overall strategic history.
I'll leave the technical details to Rich, Steve, and others.

The initial problem is that HTML 5 has obsoleted (deprecated) table
summary as we knew it in HTML 4.

We tried to get that overturned -- to rinstate summary. Eventually,
however, we backed off that effort in the expectation that we could
accomplish the same purpose more strategically.

The goal is that HTML 4's table summary functionality will be taken up
by ARIA-1.1's ARIA-DescribedAt attribute. We have published our FPWD of
ARIA-1.1 specifically to put this attribute out for discussion:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2013Sep/0011.html

As always with ARIA, our intent is that this attribute will be usable
across markup environments, e.g. SVG as well as HTML.

Also, we intend it to be usable on virtually any element. Thus,
ARIA-DescribedAt could be understood to subsume HTML 4's Table Summary
as well as HTML 4's (and soon HTML 5's) longdesc, among others.

Meanwhile, we have determined to leave sleeping dogs lie re summary
encapsulated in caption.

Janina

Pete Brunet writes:
Hi Rich, During another activity I was looking at caption and summary
last night and happened to end up on a W3C site that documents how
tables should be described:
www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques

This shows various techniques:

1) Precede the table with a paragraph and use aria-describedby
referencing that paragraph
2) Use the caption tag
3) Use the details tag in a caption tag (and the example shows a summary
tag under the details tag)
4/5) Embed the table in a figure tag which has a figcaption tag

The third case is the only one showing a summary tag, but it's a child
of the caption tag. I found an example here:
http://archive.msdn.microsoft.com/mag201212HTML5/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=5925

Looking at the UIA properties of a page with that markup, i.e. a
hierarchy of caption, details, summary, using Inspect with both IE and
FF I saw the full caption text including the summary in the accName /
UIA Name. From the perspective of caption that makes sense but having
summary as a substring of caption doesn't.

Is this a proper use of the summary tag? Or is
aria-describedby/labeledby the proper technique? Is there a better
document that I should be looking at?

Pete

On 10/12/13 5:00 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
Thanks Pete.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error. The deprecation note on the
caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used
and the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a
labeledBy relation should be used instead. This is backwards and I
will submit a replacement soon.

Pete
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[Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

2013-10-11 Thread Pete Brunet

The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error.  The deprecation note on the
caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used and
the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a labeledBy
relation should be used instead.  This is backwards and I will submit a
replacement soon.

Pete
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-07-20 Thread Pete Brunet

Thanks for checking Jamie.

The other thing I don't have any feedback on is the proxy dll:
http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/proxy-dll/

Hopefully someone could verify that at some point.

Pete

On 7/19/13 1:41 AM, James Teh wrote:
 On 16/07/2013 11:09 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 The site is now updated:
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/
 Hopefully buildapi.sh and ia2_api_all.idl are OK now.
 The idl is now correct. Thanks!

 Jamie


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-07-16 Thread Pete Brunet

The site is now updated:
http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/

Hopefully buildapi.sh and ia2_api_all.idl are OK now.

Pete

On 7/9/13 7:52 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 We don't use merged IDL. I believe we build header files from IDLs.
 Alex.

 On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:23 AM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:
 On 9/07/2013 5:13 PM, James Teh wrote:
 Now, the
 IDL includes Accessible2.idl before AccessibleRelation.idl, which breaks
 because IAccessible2 depends on IAccessibleRelation.
 Alex: I'm curious as to why you didn't hit this issue at Mozilla. Does
 Mozilla use the official merged IDL or do you generate your own?


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-07-09 Thread Pete Brunet

Thanks for finding this Jamie, I will submit to the LF help desk for
replacement.  -Pete

On 7/9/13 2:13 AM, James Teh wrote:
 On 22/04/2013 4:28 PM, James Teh wrote:
 There is a major problem with the merged IDL. It does not include the
 IAccessibleTable.idl file.

 This is now fixed, but unfortunately, there's more bad news. Now, the
 IDL includes Accessible2.idl before AccessibleRelation.idl, which
 breaks because IAccessible2 depends on IAccessibleRelation. It looks
 like buildapi.sh was changed to list all of the .idl files in
 alphabetical order. I suspect there will be other similar problems
 once AccessibleRelation is moved. I think it's best to return to the
 old order and just add the missing AccessibleTable.idl.

 I'm attaching a modified version of buildapi.sh which does just this.

 Jamie



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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Please review the v1.3 update on the IA2 site

2013-05-17 Thread Pete Brunet


On 5/17/13 6:04 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. It seems linux line endings were changed to windows line
 ending. Was it intentional change?
Hi Alex, It was not intentional.  It's often a problem in my
multi-platform environment.  What needs to be changed?

Pete
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Alex, That's right.  I found a couple of very small problems in
 my review yesterday but when I rebuild the zip it not have an
 effect on the code.  I'm going to wait a while to see if anyone
 else finds any issues before I resubmit to the web site.  -Pete


 On 5/16/13 12:32 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. Thanks for finishing it! Do I understand right that
 link for downloading IDLs is
 
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/ia2-api-20130501.zip.
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 The IA2 site has been updated to fix a few things people
 noticed were wrong.  Please take a look and let me know if
 you find anything that needs fixing.

 The top level is here:
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/

 Please ignore the prior zip, ia2-api-20130314.zip.  It will
 eventually disappear.

 The spec is here:
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/

 Pete
 -- 
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 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
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 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Object attribute format

2013-05-17 Thread Pete Brunet

Alex, Can you give us an example of the multi-value case?  As to the
choice we need more input so far we have that you suggested a space and
I suggested a comma.  -Pete

On 5/16/13 11:03 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 So it'd be good to put the format into the spec. Do I understand
 correct that the choice falls at comma separated list?
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 11:44 AM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org
 mailto:ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:

 On 17/05/2013 11:54 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

 attribute:value1,value2 seems acceptable.

 Agreed.


 Does it implicitly mean that in case of several values the
 following
 format is expected (as no subattributes were used):
 attribute:value1,value2?

 While the format makes sense, I don't think it's implicit. It
 isn't something I considered while writing NVDA's IA2 attributes
 parser, so it won't handle this without changes. It's probably
 reasonable that others may not have considered it either.

 Jamie

 -- 
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Please review the v1.3 update on the IA2 site

2013-05-17 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Alex, I used grep under Cygwin to look at the 1.2.1 files and they
also had CRLF line endings.  Here is the grep command I used:
cd .../api
grep -IUrl ^M .
where ^M was entered using Ctrl+V Ctrl+M.
This technique is from:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/73833/how-do-you-search-for-files-containing-dos-line-endings-crlf-with-grep-under-l

BTW, CR is Ctrl M and LF is Ctrl J

Are you seeing differences from the prior version?  If so, what
differences?  If not, is this a change request?

I'm assuming since we are working in a Win environment that CRLF endings
would be expected.

Pete

On 5/17/13 9:35 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 It'd be good to convert line endings in all files into unix format.



 On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:


 On 5/17/13 6:04 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. It seems linux line endings were changed to windows
 line ending. Was it intentional change?
 Hi Alex, It was not intentional.  It's often a problem in my
 multi-platform environment.  What needs to be changed?

 Pete

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Alex, That's right.  I found a couple of very small
 problems in my review yesterday but when I rebuild the zip it
 not have an effect on the code.  I'm going to wait a while to
 see if anyone else finds any issues before I resubmit to the
 web site.  -Pete


 On 5/16/13 12:32 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. Thanks for finishing it! Do I understand right
 that link for downloading IDLs is
 
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/ia2-api-20130501.zip.
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Pete Brunet
 p...@a11ysoft.com mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 The IA2 site has been updated to fix a few things people
 noticed were wrong.  Please take a look and let me know
 if you find anything that needs fixing.

 The top level is here:
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/

 Please ignore the prior zip, ia2-api-20130314.zip.  It
 will eventually disappear.

 The spec is here:
 
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/

 Pete
 -- 
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 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Object attribute format

2013-05-16 Thread Pete Brunet

I suppose it could be but the current spec doesn't provide for spaces as
token separators so using comma would be more consistent and perhaps
more in line with the capability of current parsers.  -Pete

On 5/16/13 9:00 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 In Firefox we are going to have multiple value attributes but we are
 at implementation stage yet. I'm not aware about other implementations.

 Is attribute: value1 value2 format (space delimited string) acceptable?

 ALex.


 On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Are any IA2 COM servers implementing this yet?  If so how was it
 done?  attribute:value1,value2 seems acceptable.  -Pete


 On 5/16/13 7:57 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 (resending to IA2 list)

 Hi.

 What is object attribute format is excepted when the server needs
 to provide more than one value for the single object attribute.

 The IA2 doc says [1] that format is:
 attribute:value;attribute:subattribute=subvalue,subattribute=subvalue;

 Does it implicitly mean that in case of several values the
 following format is expected (as no subattributes were used):
 attribute:value1,value2?

 [1]
 
 http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/objectattributes

 Thank you.
 Alexander.



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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleText::getTextAtOffset for word boundary clarification needed

2013-04-29 Thread Pete Brunet


On 4/28/13 9:41 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete.

 If the string consists of spaces then ATK get word at offset will
 contain the word after to the offset if the offset is not inside a
 word. In this case there are no words so I think (0, 0, ) triple is
 returned. However ATK is not really clear (see for example
 http://asurkov.blogspot.ru/2013/04/atx-text-pitfalls.html) to state it
 certainly.

  Returns the substring of the specified text type at the specified
  offset.  Refer to IA2TextBoundaryType for more details.

 I'd changed that to Returns the substring defined by specified text
 type at the specified offset. Refer ..., otherwise it makes me think
 that word should be returned in case of word type when offset is
 outside the word.

  For the word boundary type if the offset is not at the beginning or
  inside a word the returned string will contain the word before the
  offset.

 Offset at the beginning a word is also an offset inside a word. But
 actually I like ATK wording:
 The returned string will contain the word at the offset if the offset
 is inside a word and will contain the word before the offset if the
 offset is not inside a word.
Thanks Alex,

I need input from everyone on how to handle the case of text completely
full of whitespace when the text boundary is anything but character.

Options:
1) S_FALSE plus 0, 0, NULL pointer
2) S_OK plus 0, 0, 

Although today's text is not clear enough the first one is how I expect
people currently interpret the spec.

Here another draft, assuming #1 above.  I don't want to change the
behavior of the empty text scenario if AT are already relying on that
behavior.

Returns the substring defined by the specified boundary type at the
specified offset.  Refer to IA2TextBoundaryType for more details.

For the word boundary type the returned string will contain the word at
the offset if the offset is inside a word and will contain the word
before the offset if the offset is not inside a word.  In the preceding
sentence the offset at the start of a word is considered to be inside
the word.  Boundary types of sentence and paragraph should exhibit
similar behavior.

If the index is valid, but no text is found, S_FALSE is returned along
with out values of 0, 0, and a NULL pointer.  This would happen for
boundary types other than character when the text consists entirely of
whitespace.

Do you have any comments regarding the before/after methods?

Pete

   2) If the given offset is a word start then Ctrl+left arrow and Ctrl +
   right arrow return a previous word. Should an order be opposite
   instead since it contradicts to getTextAtOffset semantic?
 
  I didn't follow that, e.g. why should ctrl+rightArrow move to the
  previous word, but hopefully the above rewording will address your
 issue.

 Yes, it address.

 Say the caret is right before 'w' in Hello world. If you press
 ctrlLeft+sfhitCtrlRight then you select Hello . If you do an
 opposite thing ctrlRight + shiftCtrlLeft then you select world. So
 the order makes a difference. Getting back to the spec the world is
 wanted however the spec says to return Hello .

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:


 On 4/16/13 1:29 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
  Hi. There are couple issues with IAccessibleText spec.
 
  1) IAccessibleText::getTextAtOffset interface wording is a bit
  confusing [1], it says:
 
  If the index is valid, but no suitable word (or other text type) is
  found, a NULL pointer is returned.
 
  This makes me think (presumably makes me think wrong) that if the
  offset is outside the word then there's no suitable world.
 However the
  boundary types part says [2]:
 
  The range provided matches the range observed when the application
  processes the Ctrl + left arrow and Ctrl + right arrow key
 sequences.
  Typically this is from the start of one word to the start of the
 next.
 
  It means the previous word should be returned.
 
  Notes:
 
  a) A word start boundary from ATK (an analogy to IA2 word boundary)
  says to return previous word as well [3]:
 
   will contain the word before the offset if the offset is not
 inside
  a word.
 
  b) Firefox returns previous word in this case too.
 
 Hi Alex, What does ATK do when the text area is full of spaces and no
 other text?  That seems like the case where S_FALSE and NULL would be
 returned (except in the case of IA2_TEXT_BOUNDARY_CHAR/ALL).

 How about this rewording?

 Returns the substring of the specified text type at the specified
 offset.  Refer to IA2TextBoundaryType for more details.

 For the word boundary type if the offset is not at the beginning or
 inside a word the returned string will contain the word before the
 offset.  Boundary types of sentence and paragraph should exhibit

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-04-26 Thread Pete Brunet

Thank you for catching that Jamie.

On 4/21/13 6:18 PM, James Teh wrote:
 On 16/04/2013 7:15 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 The new version is now on the LF site at
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/.
 This page:
 http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2

 still says 1.2.1, even though the links point to 1.3.

 Jamie


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-04-26 Thread Pete Brunet


On 4/26/13 12:43 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 Thanks Jamie, I've updated buildapi.sh.
but I haven't pushed it yet.  I'll wait until my conversation with Alex
is done.

 On 4/22/13 1:28 AM, James Teh wrote:
 Hi Pete,

 On 16/04/2013 7:15 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 The new version is now on the LF site at
 http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/.
 There is a major problem with the merged IDL. It does not include the
 IAccessibleTable.idl file. It seems this was removed from buildapi.sh
 in or before September last year when you released the initial
 version of 1.3 for review.

 Thanks,
 Jamie


 -- 
 *Pete Brunet*
 
 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-04-15 Thread Pete Brunet

The new version is now on the LF site at
http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/. I found a
couple of minor errors which I will fix soon. The proxy DLL hasn't been
verified yet.

Pete

On 4/9/13 10:32 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
I opened a ticket with the LF admins to archive the 1.2.1 files and add
the 1.3 files. I hope someone can verify the new IA2 proxy. For now
it's at:
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Pete

On 3/15/13 10:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Hopefully Jamie could help with that. I'd be great to have it early Q2.
Alex.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
On 3/14/13 11:03 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

I'm fine with that. I would say As a performant alternative or
something similar.

Btw, Pete, what is a plan about releasing?

I can have these files moved onto the Linux Foundation site at any point now
(after I make the fix we are talking about). I would like at least one
person to try the proxy dll before I do. Is there a date you are looking at
for getting this done?

Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

On 3/14/13 9:30 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete.

1) It makes sense to not deprecate IAccessible2::relations since it
can be useful for AT tools. In this case maxRelations argument is not
really needed and it can be marked as ignored but it's not big deal.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

I bet this method is in use in accProbe and aViewer already and it
must be pretty handy for them. If next IAccessible2 introduces more
relation types then tools developers don't need to change their code,
release new version, etc. On the another hand relation type is a
string so technically the server can implement non standard relations.
The method to get all of them is quite useful in this case.

Are there any objections to removing the deprecate tag on IA2::nRelations,
relation, relations and adding a note to the relations method saying: As an
alternative, client code should consider using IA2_2::relationTargetsOfType?

Thank you.
Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Hi Alex,

On 3/4/13 10:29 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete. More feedback.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

2) IAccessible2_2::accessibleWithCaret: Returns the hypertext
accessible in the subtree of this object, and the caret offset within
it. It doesn't say which object is returned. In my understanding it
should be the deepest one.

I changed that to: Returns the deepest hypertext accessible... Hopefully
Arnstein will comment if this is not correct.

3) Honestly I failed to understand IA2Actions
(http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/_accessible_action_8idl.html), it
seems referred methods like textAtOffset
(http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/interface_i_accessible_text.html#a9bd84b099ac7ce2435280549e90c8827)
say nothing about IA2Action support. I'd be great to provide an
example how it works. Otherwise it sounds too generic.

I'm glad you noticed this. The preamble text is wrong. I copied it from
IA2TextBoundaryType as a prototype and didn't finish the work. These are
the actions we defined for adding support for HTML5 media. I changed the
preamble text to:

/** This enum defines values which are predefined actions for use when
implementing
support for media.

This enum is used when specifying an action for
IAccessibleAction::doAction.
*/

4) changelog (http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/changelog.txt) lists
IA2_RELATION_GROUPING_OBJECT_FOR, IA2_RELATION_POPUP_INITIATOR_FOR
relations, however they aren't listed in interface
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/_accessible_relation_8idl.html

Fixed.

5) IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT: makes sense to mention that
returned object implements IAccessibleDocument interface.

I added: The target object implements the IAccessibleDocument interface.

Otherwise it looks good.

Thanks Alex, I refreshed the IA2 files

- The change log: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/changelog.txt
- IA2 spec: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/
- The individual IDL files: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/api/
or the full IDL file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/ia2_api_all.idl

Did anyone try the new proxy?
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Thank you.
Alex.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Please review the following. This should be the final unless updates are
needed.

- The change

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-04-09 Thread Pete Brunet

I opened a ticket with the LF admins to archive the 1.2.1 files and add
the 1.3 files. I hope someone can verify the new IA2 proxy. For now
it's at:
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Pete

On 3/15/13 10:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Hopefully Jamie could help with that. I'd be great to have it early Q2.
Alex.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
On 3/14/13 11:03 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

I'm fine with that. I would say As a performant alternative or
something similar.

Btw, Pete, what is a plan about releasing?

Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

On 3/14/13 9:30 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

Thank you.
Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Hi Alex,

On 3/4/13 10:29 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete. More feedback.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

I changed that to: Returns the deepest hypertext accessible... Hopefully
Arnstein will comment if this is not correct.

/** This enum defines values which are predefined actions for use when
implementing
support for media.

This enum is used when specifying an action for
IAccessibleAction::doAction.
*/

Fixed.

5) IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT: makes sense to mention that
returned object implements IAccessibleDocument interface.

I added: The target object implements the IAccessibleDocument interface.

Otherwise it looks good.

Thanks Alex, I refreshed the IA2 files

Did anyone try the new proxy?
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Thank you.
Alex.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Please review the following. This should be the final unless updates are
needed.

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-03-15 Thread Pete Brunet

On 3/14/13 11:03 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
I'm fine with that. I would say As a performant alternative or
something similar.

Btw, Pete, what is a plan about releasing?
I can have these files moved onto the Linux Foundation site at any point
now (after I make the fix we are talking about). I would like at least
one person to try the proxy dll before I do. Is there a date you are
looking at for getting this done?

Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
On 3/14/13 9:30 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

Thank you.
Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Hi Alex,

On 3/4/13 10:29 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete. More feedback.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

I changed that to: Returns the deepest hypertext accessible... Hopefully
Arnstein will comment if this is not correct.

/** This enum defines values which are predefined actions for use when
implementing
support for media.

This enum is used when specifying an action for
IAccessibleAction::doAction.
*/

Fixed.

5) IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT: makes sense to mention that
returned object implements IAccessibleDocument interface.

I added: The target object implements the IAccessibleDocument interface.

Otherwise it looks good.

Thanks Alex, I refreshed the IA2 files

Did anyone try the new proxy?
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Thank you.
Alex.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Please review the following. This should be the final unless updates are
needed.

Pete

On 2/26/13 12:30 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

If don't hear anything over the next couple of days, I'll assume this won't
be in 1.3 and I'll finish up the work I need to do to republish the spec on
a11ysoft.com for one more look at it before I get in touch with the Linux
Foundation IT guys to get it published there.

On 2/25/13 11:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Probably

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-03-14 Thread Pete Brunet

On 3/14/13 9:30 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Hi, Pete.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?
I bet this method is in use in accProbe and aViewer already and it
must be pretty handy for them. If next IAccessible2 introduces more
relation types then tools developers don't need to change their code,
release new version, etc. On the another hand relation type is a
string so technically the server can implement non standard relations.
The method to get all of them is quite useful in this case.
Are there any objections to removing the deprecate tag on
IA2::nRelations, relation, relations and adding a note to the relations
method saying: As an alternative, client code should consider using
IA2_2::relationTargetsOfType?

Thank you.
Alex.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
Hi Alex,

On 3/4/13 10:29 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Hi, Pete. More feedback.

Is there a reason to not deprecate it, i.e. do we need implementers to spend
the time on it? What can be done with it that can't be done with
IA2_2:relationTargetsOfType?

I changed that to: Returns the deepest hypertext accessible... Hopefully
Arnstein will comment if this is not correct.

/** This enum defines values which are predefined actions for use when
implementing
support for media.

This enum is used when specifying an action for
IAccessibleAction::doAction.
*/

Fixed.

5) IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT: makes sense to mention that
returned object implements IAccessibleDocument interface.

I added: The target object implements the IAccessibleDocument interface.

Otherwise it looks good.

Thanks Alex, I refreshed the IA2 files

Did anyone try the new proxy?
http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Thank you.
Alex.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Please review the following. This should be the final unless updates are
needed.

Pete

On 2/26/13 12:30 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

On 2/25/13 11:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

Probably we should let IA2 1.3 go without addressing this issue. In
Firefox we still can use IA2 to expose it in non-standard way (like
new object attribute).
Alex.

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:49 PM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:

On 26/02/2013 4:12 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:

So Is the following what you want? It moves the method from
IA2_2 to IAText2 thus resolving an issue for Jamie.
HRESULT IAccessibleText2::offsetOfChildText (
[in] IUnknown* child,
[out] long* offset

[Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-03-04 Thread Pete Brunet

Please review the following.  This should be the final unless updates
are needed.

- The change log: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/changelog.txt
- IA2 spec: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/
- The individual IDL files: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/api/
  or the full IDL file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/ia2_api_all.idl
- The proxy: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/proxy-dll/

Pete

On 2/26/13 12:30 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 If don't hear anything over the next couple of days, I'll assume this
 won't be in 1.3 and I'll finish up the work I need to do to republish
 the spec on a11ysoft.com for one more look at it before I get in touch
 with the Linux Foundation IT guys to get it published there.

 On 2/25/13 11:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Probably we should let IA2 1.3 go without addressing this issue. In
 Firefox we still can use IA2 to expose it in non-standard way (like
 new object attribute).
 Alex.


 On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:49 PM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:
 On 26/02/2013 4:12 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 So Is the following what you want?  It moves the method from
 IA2_2 to IAText2 thus resolving an issue for Jamie.
 HRESULT IAccessibleText2::offsetOfChildText (
[in] IUnknown* child,
[out] long* offset
 );
 ...

S_OK is returned if the parent accessible implements IAccessibleText.
S_FALSE is returned if the parent accessible does not implement
 IAccessibleText; [out] value is -1.
 This text needs to be changed for the new method.

 That said, this certainly does look nicer to me. I still think it's a bit of
 a hack, especially given that IAccessibleHyper* should really cover this,
 but at least it's an isolated hack.


 Jamie

 --
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 Skype: pete.brunet
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-25 Thread Pete Brunet

Alex, Brett, Jamie, What do you recommend?

1) HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
[out] long* offset
  );

Return the text offset in the immediate parent node.

2) Do not add this method.

3) Something else.

Pete

On 2/10/13 8:15 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 It's a total hack. However, imo, this whole idea is a hack. :)
 It could be. IAccessibleHyperlink or IAccessibleText on text leafs are
 hacks and actually it is a thin ice for Firefox. This easily could
 face us to lot of work. Also these approaches aren't really subject of
 the spec and it should introduce even bigger difference in
 implementations between servers.

 On the another hand we have the method on internal layer in Firefox
 that Brett needs. The method is used to build
 IAccessibleText/Hypertext implementation from accessible tree. So if
 AT works both with accessible tree and IAccesisbleText/HyperText for
 text stuff then this method can be useful.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:00 AM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:
 On 11/02/2013 11:22 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Jamie. If text leafs implement IAccessibleHyperlink but previously
 IAccessibleHyperlink was implemented by embedded objects only then
 this might be something that AT relies on.
 I guess this is a possibility, though I'd assume that ATs that don't need
 text leaf nodes wouldn't traverse them. We'd certainly need ot check,
 though.


 On the another hand parent
 IAccessibleHyperText would return a collection of children instead the
 collection of embedded objects and AT could have dependencies on it as
 well.
 Ah. I was imagining that the parent IAccessibleHypertext wouldn't return the
 text leaf nodes. See notes on hack below.


 pure IAccessibleHyperlink on text leafs
 is rather a hack than it suites them well.
 It's a total hack. However, imo, this whole idea is a hack. :)


 Jamie

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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-25 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/25/13 11:00 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete.

 It shouldn't be static. The object is method called on is a parent.

 HRESULT IAccessibleText2::childOffset (
[in] IUnknown* childAccessible,
[out] long* offset
 );
Thanks for pointing that out Alex.  I had it backward from what you are
thinking.  So Is the following what you want?  It moves the method from
IA2_2 to IAText2 thus resolving an issue for Jamie.

HRESULT IAccessibleText2::offsetOfChildText (
  [in] IUnknown* child,
  [out] long* offset
   );

Return the offset in this accessible's text which corresponds to the
text of the specified child.

Returns:
  S_OK is returned if the parent accessible implements IAccessibleText.
  S_FALSE is returned if the parent accessible does not implement
IAccessibleText; [out] value is -1.

 Also, what interfaces are implemented on the child nodes?
 depending on the object. These are IAccessible/IAccessible2,
 IAccessibleImage in case of image.

 BTW, not being in the situation of needing this for my own implementation
 I'm trusting our implementers to convey whether or not this is generally
 useful to the IA2 community.  If not then we shouldn't add the method
 especially since there is the solution of the private interface.
 Yes, I think we can always invent on own. For example, VARIANT object
 attributes from 1.3 should work here. Probably that's the way to go
 since we can't reach an agreement on this item.
I don't sense disagreement yet.  It's just taking a while.  Maybe the
above rework will help resolve one of Jamie's concerns.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 On 2/25/13 9:40 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 I don't mind adding the method to the spec but I don't have strong
 opinion either. I agree with Jamie that keeping the text method on
 IAccessible2 looks unusual. In Gecko we keep an analogue method in
 text interface:
 int32_t GetChildOffset(Accessible* aChild);

 That's a static method.  Is it OK to have static methods in IDL?  If so
 would it make sense to add the following to IAText2?

 =
 HRESULT IAccessibleText2::offsetInParent (
   [in] IUnknown* accessible,
   [out] long* offset
);

 Return the text offset in the parent of the specified accessible.

 Return the text offset in the parent of the specified accessible
 corresponding to the beginning of the text associated with the specified
 accessible.

 Returns:
   S_OK is returned if the parent accessible implements IAccessibleText.
   S_FALSE is returned if the parent accessible does not implement
 IAccessibleText; [out] value is -1.

 Note: This is a static method.
 =

 Also, what interfaces are implemented on the child nodes?

 BTW, not being in the situation of needing this for my own implementation
 I'm trusting our implementers to convey whether or not this is generally
 useful to the IA2 community.  If not then we shouldn't add the method
 especially since there is the solution of the private interface.



 Alex.


 On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:29 PM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:

 Unusually :), I find it difficult to give an opinion on this. Clearly,
 multiple people think it should be introduced. However, I find it very hard
 to justify introducing what is essentially a hack into the main IAccessible2
 interface. Furthermore, this method is related to IAccessibleText, yet it's
 not in a text specific interface. Once it's in the main interface, it can't
 be removed and server implementers have to implement it, even if they just
 throw not implemented. If it must be introduced, I'd prefer to see a
 separate interface for it, but that seems rather silly.

 We do have a precedent in IADocument::anchorText.  That's the only method in
 that interface.

 In short, I'm not
 going to fight inclusion of this, since I don't have strong enough arguments
 against, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it either.

 Jamie


 On 26/02/2013 7:50 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

 Alex, Brett, Jamie, What do you recommend?

 1) HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
  [out] long* offset
);

 Return the text offset in the immediate parent node.

 2) Do not add this method.

 3) Something else.

 Pete

 On 2/10/13 8:15 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 It's a total hack. However, imo, this whole idea is a hack. :)

 It could be. IAccessibleHyperlink or IAccessibleText on text leafs are
 hacks and actually it is a thin ice for Firefox. This easily could
 face us to lot of work. Also these approaches aren't really subject of
 the spec and it should introduce even bigger difference in
 implementations between servers.

 On the another hand we have the method on internal layer in Firefox
 that Brett needs. The method is used to build
 IAccessibleText/Hypertext implementation from accessible tree. So if
 AT works both with accessible tree and IAccesisbleText/HyperText for
 text stuff then this method can be useful.

 Thank you.
 Alex

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-06 Thread Pete Brunet

Since there is a need for this and the solution is easy to implement it
seems worth adding.  Here is a draft for review.

HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
[out] long* offset
  );

Return text offset in parent.

Determine the parent accessible which implements IAccessibleText and
return the offset in that object which corresponds to the beginning of
the text associated with this accessible.  If this accessible implements
IAccessibleText, 0 will be returned.

Returns:
  S_OK is returned if this accessible or a parent accessible implements
IAccessibleText.
  S_FALSE is returned if no nodes implementing IAccessibleText are
found; [out] value is 0.

On 2/5/13 10:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete.

 Options were discussed:
 1) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleText (I didn't like
 it, see 
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 2) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleHyperLink (I didn't
 like it, see 
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 3) add a new method DescendantOffset(IAccessible* acc, long* offset)
 like Brett suggested (see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html).
 I don't mind. It's easy to implement.
 4) do nothing (Jamie mentioned that pure
 IAccessibleText/HyperLink/HyperText should work also as alternative
 approach to the approach described by Brett, but here we probably run
 into restrictions of proprietary softwares).

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:31 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 To all,

 Please review the thread Brett started at:
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html

 to see if any further progress can be made on this issue.


 On 2/5/13 8:46 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 Hi,
 I wish we could get it in but it definitely sounded like there was no
 consensus on the issue, so let's let it go.
 Thanks,
 Brett


 
 From: Pete Brunet [mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com]
 Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 7:02 PM
 To: Brett Lewis
 Cc: IAccessible2 mailing list
 Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

 Hi Brett, Is this still an issue for you?  We're very near the end of
 discussions for IA2 1.3 and wanted to see if more discussion is needed on
 this issue.  -Pete

 On 11/26/12 7:03 PM, James Teh wrote:

 On 27/11/2012 8:02 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 I am getting the Iaccessible tree.  I then find that I want the text
 attributes for one of my leaf nodes and find that I have to go back up the
 Iaccessible tree to find the nearest Iaccessible node that allow QI to
 IAccessibleText and then trying to figure out how to map the result back
 down to my Iaccessible leaf node.

 If you can, for Mozilla, it's best to ignore leaf nodes altogether; i.e.
 pretend they don't exist. That way, you're only dealing with nodes that
 support IAccessibleText. However, there may well be a good reason you can't
 do this.

 Jamie


 --
 Pete Brunet

 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
 Ionosphere: WS4G


 --
 Pete Brunet

 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
 Ionosphere: WS4G

 ___
 Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
 Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
 https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2


-- 
*Pete Brunet*

a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
(512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
Skype: pete.brunet
IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
Ionosphere: WS4G
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
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https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-06 Thread Pete Brunet

Thanks Alex, How is this?

HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
[out] long* offset
  );

Return text offset in parent.

Determine the parent accessible which implements IAccessibleText and
return the offset in that object which corresponds to the beginning of
the text associated with this accessible.

Returns:
  S_OK is returned if a parent accessible implements
IAccessibleText.
  S_FALSEis returned if no parent nodes implementing IAccessibleText
are found; [out] value is -1.

On 2/6/13 8:02 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. The method looks ok. Few notes.

 If this accessible implements IAccessibleText then it can be a child
 of another IAccessibleText, in this case it also has associated text
 (embedded character) and thus it has valid offset. Btw, I would use -1
 in case when there's no parent IAccessibleText instead of 0 since 0 is
 valid offset and it may be confusing (I saw S_FALSE which is
 reasonable but anyway).

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 2:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 Since there is a need for this and the solution is easy to implement it
 seems worth adding.  Here is a draft for review.

 HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
 [out] long* offset
   );

 Return text offset in parent.

 Determine the parent accessible which implements IAccessibleText and return
 the offset in that object which corresponds to the beginning of the text
 associated with this accessible.  If this accessible implements
 IAccessibleText, 0 will be returned.

 Returns:
   S_OK is returned if this accessible or a parent accessible implements
 IAccessibleText.
   S_FALSE is returned if no nodes implementing IAccessibleText are found;
 [out] value is 0.


 On 2/5/13 10:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 Hi, Pete.

 Options were discussed:
 1) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleText (I didn't like
 it, see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 2) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleHyperLink (I didn't
 like it, see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 3) add a new method DescendantOffset(IAccessible* acc, long* offset)
 like Brett suggested (see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html).
 I don't mind. It's easy to implement.
 4) do nothing (Jamie mentioned that pure
 IAccessibleText/HyperLink/HyperText should work also as alternative
 approach to the approach described by Brett, but here we probably run
 into restrictions of proprietary softwares).

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:31 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 To all,

 Please review the thread Brett started at:
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html

 to see if any further progress can be made on this issue.


 On 2/5/13 8:46 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 Hi,
 I wish we could get it in but it definitely sounded like there was no
 consensus on the issue, so let's let it go.
 Thanks,
 Brett


 
 From: Pete Brunet [mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com]
 Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 7:02 PM
 To: Brett Lewis
 Cc: IAccessible2 mailing list
 Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

 Hi Brett, Is this still an issue for you?  We're very near the end of
 discussions for IA2 1.3 and wanted to see if more discussion is needed on
 this issue.  -Pete

 On 11/26/12 7:03 PM, James Teh wrote:

 On 27/11/2012 8:02 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 I am getting the Iaccessible tree.  I then find that I want the text
 attributes for one of my leaf nodes and find that I have to go back up the
 Iaccessible tree to find the nearest Iaccessible node that allow QI to
 IAccessibleText and then trying to figure out how to map the result back
 down to my Iaccessible leaf node.

 If you can, for Mozilla, it's best to ignore leaf nodes altogether; i.e.
 pretend they don't exist. That way, you're only dealing with nodes that
 support IAccessibleText. However, there may well be a good reason you can't
 do this.

 Jamie

___
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Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-06 Thread Pete Brunet

Alex, Do you see any need to restrict this to the immediate parent?  I'm
going to assume not in the following:

HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInAncestorText (
[out] long* offset
  );

Return the text offset in an ancestor node.

Determine the closest ancestor in the tree of accessibles which
implements IAccessibleText and return the offset in that accessible
which corresponds to the beginning of the text associated with this
accessible.

Returns:
  S_OK is returned if an ancestor accessible implements IAccessibleText.
  S_FALSE is returned if no ancestor node implementing IAccessibleText
are found; [out] value is -1.

On 2/6/13 8:55 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. if a parent accessible implements and if no parent nodes
 implementing IAccessibleText are found sounds ambiguously. 1st
 assumes an immediate parent, 2nd assumes an accessible from the parent
 chain. I'm not sure about other IA2 implementation but in Firefox if
 the parent accessible doesn't implement IAccessibleText then this
 accessible can't be a text of some other accessible from the parent
 chain. In other words only 1st scenario is possible in Firefox.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 Thanks Alex, How is this?

 HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
 [out] long* offset
   );

 Return text offset in parent.

 Determine the parent accessible which implements IAccessibleText and
 return the offset in that object which corresponds to the beginning of
 the text associated with this accessible.

 Returns:
   S_OK is returned if a parent accessible implements
 IAccessibleText.
   S_FALSEis returned if no parent nodes implementing IAccessibleText
 are found; [out] value is -1.

 On 2/6/13 8:02 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. The method looks ok. Few notes.

 If this accessible implements IAccessibleText then it can be a child
 of another IAccessibleText, in this case it also has associated text
 (embedded character) and thus it has valid offset. Btw, I would use -1
 in case when there's no parent IAccessibleText instead of 0 since 0 is
 valid offset and it may be confusing (I saw S_FALSE which is
 reasonable but anyway).

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 2:43 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 Since there is a need for this and the solution is easy to implement it
 seems worth adding.  Here is a draft for review.

 HRESULT IAccessible2_2::offsetInParentText (
 [out] long* offset
   );

 Return text offset in parent.

 Determine the parent accessible which implements IAccessibleText and return
 the offset in that object which corresponds to the beginning of the text
 associated with this accessible.  If this accessible implements
 IAccessibleText, 0 will be returned.

 Returns:
   S_OK is returned if this accessible or a parent accessible implements
 IAccessibleText.
   S_FALSE is returned if no nodes implementing IAccessibleText are found;
 [out] value is 0.


 On 2/5/13 10:58 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 Hi, Pete.

 Options were discussed:
 1) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleText (I didn't like
 it, see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 2) make text leaf accessible implement IAccessibleHyperLink (I didn't
 like it, see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001731.html)
 3) add a new method DescendantOffset(IAccessible* acc, long* offset)
 like Brett suggested (see
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html).
 I don't mind. It's easy to implement.
 4) do nothing (Jamie mentioned that pure
 IAccessibleText/HyperLink/HyperText should work also as alternative
 approach to the approach described by Brett, but here we probably run
 into restrictions of proprietary softwares).

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:31 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 To all,

 Please review the thread Brett started at:
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html

 to see if any further progress can be made on this issue.


 On 2/5/13 8:46 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 Hi,
 I wish we could get it in but it definitely sounded like there was no
 consensus on the issue, so let's let it go.
 Thanks,
 Brett


 
 From: Pete Brunet [mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com]
 Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 7:02 PM
 To: Brett Lewis
 Cc: IAccessible2 mailing list
 Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

 Hi Brett, Is this still an issue for you?  We're very near the end of
 discussions for IA2 1.3 and wanted to see if more discussion is needed on
 this issue.  -Pete

 On 11/26/12 7:03 PM, James Teh wrote:

 On 27/11/2012 8:02 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:

 I am getting the Iaccessible tree.  I then find that I want the text
 attributes for one of my leaf nodes and find that I have to go back up the
 Iaccessible tree

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-05 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/4/13 11:13 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:

 On 2/4/13 5:20 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Partially.

 So, cut, copy copy selected text to the clipboard. The details are
 handled by the rouser. Paste pasts to selected text or the insertion
 point (collapsed selection). What is the concern about clipboard
 functionality?
 I'll have to dig through a month's worth of discussion on the list
 back in June 2011.  I'll try to get to that at some point during the
 week.  If you have time to look at it sooner look through the thread
 with subject, next changes to IAccessible2 here:
 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-June/thread.html
There are a lot of topics in that thread and I'll try to separate out
and summarize the clipboard discussion later, but there is also a
following discussion which starts here:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-July/001495.html
and one more post here:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-February/001561.html

 Rich

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:


 On 2/4/13 4:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Did you check with Nuance? What appends if replacetext is removed?
 If you have a contact at Nuance please ask them to join the list.

 Only the clipboard methods are deprecated, which bascially means
 don't use the cut/copy/paste methods until the IA2 spec can be
 changed to support the varying implementations and ambiguities of
 clipboard functionality.  The rest of the methods are not
 deprecated, i.e. deleteText, insertText, replaceText, and
 setAttributes.  Does that clarification help at all?

 Even if Nuance has not implemented it for say FF has someone
 approached them? We can' t just  be supporting vision impairments.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Rich, At this point, since we couldn't find consensus and since
 this release was supposed to done last Fall and since I was
 informed that noone has implemented or shown a need for the three
 clipboard operations, I'm inclined to not hold up the release any
 further and handle this in a follow-on release if a project comes
 along that needs clipboard functionality and provides resource to
 drive the spec toward a well thought out definition of the
 clipboard methods.

 Pete

 On 2/4/13 8:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Hi Pete,

 The reason for the editing functions was to allow a voice reco
 solution to select text, edit it, and perform clipboard
 operations for the mobility impaired. It is additional work to
 have a voice reco solution have to go through the additional work
 of doing the additional keyboard simulations for doing that
 function.

 So, these are single actions. AccessibleEditableText also allows
 you to replace text, and set attributes, which takes offsets and
 replacement text/attributes. Accessible actions are single action
 functions that don't take parameters. ReplaceText is not the same
 as pasting from the clipboard. It is really nice to have all the
 features in the same interface. Note: One could bind the single
 command functions (cut, copy, paste) to the same actions in
 accessible actions.

 The other problem you have with actions is where do you apply it.
 Do you know to apply it only to the document. If Editable text is
 applied to text content within the document then you should now
 where to find the interface.

 Rich


 Rich Schwerdtfeger


 -- 
 *Pete Brunet*
 
 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
 Ionosphere: WS4G

 -- 
 *Pete Brunet*
 
 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
 Ionosphere: WS4G


 ___
 Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
 Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
 https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

-- 
*Pete Brunet*

a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
(512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
Skype: pete.brunet
IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
Ionosphere: WS4G
___
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-05 Thread Pete Brunet

On 2/5/13 8:31 AM, Brian Cragun wrote:
In those threads, I had asked for a way for IA2 Paste Text to provide
both a Start and an
End Offset parameter. Also to provide an Attributes parameter.
Copy-with-parameters should be implemented as an additional method in
IAccessibleText.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-June/001336.html

This was from Carolyn McLeod who needed it in Eclipse for cut and paste.
Hi Brian, On 27 June 2011 in this post
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-June/001408.html
Carolyn said, What I am getting at by all of this is that maybe
pasteText should not have any offset parameters at all, because
startOffset and endOffset are inadequate to define multiple selections).
Perhaps pasteText should simply be specified to always operate on the
selection, whatever that may be.

Brian Cragun
IBM Master Inventor
IBM AbilityLab Consultant
Human Ability Accessibility Center_
__www.ibm.com/able_ http://www.ibm.com/able _w3.ibm.com/able_
http://w3.ibm.com/able
W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437

*/Subscribe to RSS feed and contribute to/**/Accessibility News
community/*
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Connections/*
_IBM Accessibility_ http://www.facebook.com/IBMAccessibilityon
Facebook ▼_IBMAccess_ http://twitter.com/IBMAccesson Twitter ▼_IBM
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From: Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Cc: IAccessible2 mailing list
accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Date: 02/04/2013 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review
Sent by: accessibility-ia2-boun...@lists.linuxfoundation.org

On 2/4/13 5:20 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
Partially.

So, cut, copy copy selected text to the clipboard. The details are
handled by the rouser. Paste pasts to selected text or the insertion
point (collapsed selection). What is the concern about clipboard
functionality?
I'll have to dig through a month's worth of discussion on the list
back in June 2011. I'll try to get to that at some point during the
week. If you have time to look at it sooner look through the thread
with subject, next changes to IAccessible2 here:_
__http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-June/thread.html_

Rich

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Pete Brunet _pete@a11ysoft.com_
mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

On 2/4/13 4:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
Did you check with Nuance? What appends if replacetext is removed?
If you have a contact at Nuance please ask them to join the list.

Only the clipboard methods are deprecated, which bascially means don't
use the cut/copy/paste methods until the IA2 spec can be changed to
support the varying implementations and ambiguities of clipboard
functionality. The rest of the methods are not deprecated, i.e.
deleteText, insertText, replaceText, and setAttributes. Does that
clarification help at all?

Even if Nuance has not implemented it for say FF has someone
approached them? We can' t just be supporting vision impairments.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 4, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Pete Brunet _pete@a11ysoft.com_
mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

Hi Rich, At this point, since we couldn't find consensus and since
this release was supposed to done last Fall and since I was informed
that noone has implemented or shown a need for the three clipboard
operations, I'm inclined to not hold up the release any further and
handle this in a follow-on release if a project comes along that needs
clipboard functionality and provides resource to drive the spec toward
a well thought out definition of the clipboard methods.

Pete

On 2/4/13 8:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
Hi Pete,

The reason for the editing functions was to allow a voice reco
solution to select text, edit it, and perform clipboard operations for
the mobility impaired. It is additional work to have a voice reco
solution have to go through the additional work of doing the
additional keyboard simulations for doing that function.

So, these are single actions. AccessibleEditableText also allows you
to replace text, and set attributes, which takes offsets and
replacement text/attributes. Accessible actions are single action
functions that don't take parameters. ReplaceText is not the same as
pasting from the clipboard. It is really nice to have all the features
in the same interface. Note: One could bind the single command
functions (cut, copy, paste) to the same actions in accessible actions.

The other problem you have with actions is where do you apply it. Do
you know to apply it only to the document. If Editable text is applied
to text content within the document then you should now

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-05 Thread Pete Brunet

To all,

Please review the thread Brett started at:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2012-November/001729.html

to see if any further progress can be made on this issue.

On 2/5/13 8:46 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:
 Hi,
 I wish we could get it in but it definitely sounded like there was no
 consensus on the issue, so let's let it go.
 Thanks,
 Brett
  

 
 *From:* Pete Brunet [mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com]
 *Sent:* Monday, February 04, 2013 7:02 PM
 *To:* Brett Lewis
 *Cc:* IAccessible2 mailing list
 *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

 Hi Brett, Is this still an issue for you?  We're very near the end of
 discussions for IA2 1.3 and wanted to see if more discussion is needed
 on this issue.  -Pete

 On 11/26/12 7:03 PM, James Teh wrote:
 On 27/11/2012 8:02 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:
 I am getting the Iaccessible tree.  I then find that I want the text
 attributes for one of my leaf nodes and find that I have to go back
 up the Iaccessible tree to find the nearest Iaccessible node that
 allow QI to IAccessibleText and then trying to figure out how to map
 the result back down to my Iaccessible leaf node.
 If you can, for Mozilla, it's best to ignore leaf nodes altogether;
 i.e. pretend they don't exist. That way, you're only dealing with
 nodes that support IAccessibleText. However, there may well be a good
 reason you can't do this.

 Jamie


 -- 
 *Pete Brunet*
 
 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 10/10/12 2:07 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Jamie. Answering inline.

 5) Document that copyText, cutText, and pasteText are deprecated.
 Can you please refresh me on it? The reason specified is This
 function is available via the application's GUI. but it seems it can
 be applied to the whole IAccessibleEditableText interface.
 I believe there was some talk a while ago about making these all actions
 which can be triggered using the standard action mechanism. This would
 require a way to perform an action given a constant. It is why the idea of
 using negative action indices came up.
 It seems it doesn't answer why we can't turn out the whole
 IAccessibleEditableText interface into actions.
 Btw, I would prefer doAction taking a BSTR rather than negative
 constant. Otherwise we should standardize all possible actions and we
 don't leave a room for the server to introduce non-standard actions.

 6) IAccessibleHypertext2::hyperlinks. Just to make sure: we decided to
 go with array instead EnumVariant? Do AT want to get all items at once
 even if the document is big and has many links?
 It seems we didn't go with EnumVariant at all but we added maxCount
 'in' argument. Should we have it here as well?
Hi Alex, I assume you are referring to
IAccessible2_2::relationTargetsOfType which along with
IAccessible2::relations and IAccessibleRelation::targerts are the only
methods with a valid max count [in] parameter.  (There are several
others but those methods were coded in error and their max count [in]
parameters are to be ignored.)  IAccessibleHypertext2::hyperlinks
doesn't have a max [in] parameter and Jamie said in a followup note that
he's unaware of any need for one.

 7) IA2_RELATION_GROUPING_OBJECT_FOR: This object is a grouping object
 for the target object. - it'd be nice to give a hint for
 implementers. After a time I don't really remember what is it about :)
 I guess a grouping object/container would expose this relation referring to
 all objects it contains. Is this really useful?
 It'd be nice to have examples. Does it applicable to HTML fieldset and
 HTML form? Should it include the element connected by node_child_of
 relation if the element is not a descendant?

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 3:39 PM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:
 On 24/09/2012 2:52 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 5) Document that copyText, cutText, and pasteText are deprecated.
 Can you please refresh me on it? The reason specified is This
 function is available via the application's GUI. but it seems it can
 be applied to the whole IAccessibleEditableText interface.
 I believe there was some talk a while ago about making these all actions
 which can be triggered using the standard action mechanism. This would
 require a way to perform an action given a constant. It is why the idea of
 using negative action indices came up.


 6) IAccessibleHypertext2::hyperlinks. Just to make sure: we decided to
 go with array instead EnumVariant? Do AT want to get all items at once
 even if the document is big and has many links?
 Isn't that the whole point of this method? Otherwise, wouldn't
 IAccessibleHypertext::hyperlink be enough? Maybe I'm missing something...


 7) IA2_RELATION_GROUPING_OBJECT_FOR: This object is a grouping object
 for the target object. - it'd be nice to give a hint for
 implementers. After a time I don't really remember what is it about :)
 I guess a grouping object/container would expose this relation referring to
 all objects it contains. Is this really useful?


 9)  Description for IA2_RELATION_POPUP_INITIATOR_FOR doesn't make
 things really clear for implementers too.
 Yeah; I have no idea what this is for. :)

 Btw, the used string is
 popInitiatorFor,
 Looks like a typo to me.

 Thanks,
 Jamie


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/4/13 5:13 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 Hi Alex, I am going to try to get some momentum going on this again...

 On 9/23/12 11:52 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. Here's my two cents.

 1) It makes sense to allow IAccessible2_2::attribute to take sequence
 of attribute names like margin-left;margin-right; to get these
 attribute values for a single call.
 Is this important enough to add additional development effort for
 server side implementers?
 2) It'd be nice to add a reference to relation constants for
 relationTargetsOfType method description, see [in] type The requested
 relation type.
 Done.
 3) Any specific reason to use long for nTargets in
 relationTargetsOfType since it seems it never takes negative values?
 It's a good point, but since an unsigned long wasn't used anywhere
 else it seems like at least for the sake of consistency to leave it as is.
 4) Should we keep IAccessibleDocument restricted to HTML documents?
 After all HTML sounds like an implementation detail. The idea it
 serves to is when the loaded document shouldn't be read from the
 beginning.
 I changed it to:
   /** @brief Returns the most recently used anchor target within a
 document.
  
A document's most recently targeted in-page anchor is returned.  A
 typical use
 of this method is to fetch the anchor target within an HTML
 document.  In this
 case anchor targets are those which has been defined with the a
 tag.
 5) Document that copyText, cutText, and pasteText are deprecated.
 Can you please refresh me on it? The reason specified is This
 function is available via the application's GUI. but it seems it can
 be applied to the whole IAccessibleEditableText interface.
 This was a long discussion involving several people back in June 2011
 from the 7th to the 29th and this is what we ended up with.  It was
 determined that the three deprecated methods are clipboard operations
 and there are too many differences and ambiguities in how applications
 implement their clipboard functionality.  Also copy/cut/paste methods
 are not in use while the other ones are so we can't deprecate the
 entire interface.  We also talked about adding, if needed at some
 later date, five new actions for cut, copy, pasteDefault,
 pasteFormatted, pasteUnformatted.
 6) IAccessibleHypertext2::hyperlinks. Just to make sure: we decided to
 go with array instead EnumVariant? Do AT want to get all items at once
 even if the document is big and has many links?
 Back on 14 Aug 2012 you agreed that the array would be preferred in
 order to keep it consistent with the array returned by
 IAccessible2_2::relationTargetsOfType.
 7) IA2_RELATION_GROUPING_OBJECT_FOR: This object is a grouping object
 for the target object. - it'd be nice to give a hint for
 implementers. After a time I don't really remember what is it about :)
 Actually this got into this draft of the spec by mistake.  We agreed
 it was not needed back on 1 March 12.  Ditto with 
 IA2_RELATION_POPUP_INITIATOR_FOR.  I removed them both.
 8) IA2_RELATION_NODE_PARENT_OF This object is a parent of a target
 object. It's not clear as well since it doesn't answer why
 get_accParent doesn't work. Maybe you should say it's a logical parent
 and the relation is reverse to RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF. It is used, for
 example, for flat structured trees.
 I could remove it.  Noone else showed interest in it other than for
 symmetry with IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF.  The comment about
 get_accParent is a good one.  You asked for this new relation back on
 9 Nov 09 because you added it for ATK and wanted to enhance the
 symmetry between the ATK and IA2 interfaces.  Or I could just add
 another sentence, This relation is the reciprocal of
 IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF.  I didn't understand the comment about
 flat structured trees but if you want to keep this relation please
 provide an additional sentence.
 9)  Description for IA2_RELATION_POPUP_INITIATOR_FOR doesn't make
 things really clear for implementers too. Btw, the used string is
 popInitiatorFor, I'm not sure if this is on demand, should it be
 popupInitiatorFor instead?
 Removed.  See #7.
 10) Both IAccessibleHypertext and IAccessibleText are marked as
 deprecated (see http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/), however
 IAccessibleHypertext2 and IAccessibleText2 are inherited from them.
 What does deprecation mean here?
 Thanks for noticing that Alex.  Does anyone see any issues if I remove
 the inheritance? 
Actually I should not remove the inheritance.  I'll remove the text
indicating deprecation.
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 I finished up the IA2 1.3 work over the weekend but due to some changes on
 the LF web site am unable to post it there.  I've provided it at
 a11ysoft.com.  Please review it.  I won't get to the object attributes until
 later (to add explicit-name).

 documentation:  http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html
 zip file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2.zip

 The one bug I see

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 10/10/12 1:29 AM, James Teh wrote:
 Hi all,

 Sorry for taking so long. Here is my feedback:

 Accessible2.idl:
 IAccessible2 has been removed from the Interfaces section. It should
 still be included. (I see Pete has already acknowledged this.)
 I'm not sure it makes sense to say the older interfaces (except
 IAccessibleTable, which has essentially been completely replaced) are
 deprecated, as the newer ones subclass them.
I've removed the deprecated text from IAHypertext and IAText.  I think
it still make sense to indicate IARelation is deprecated.
 The IAccessible2 interface still contains the modifications relevant
 to IAccessible2_2. Specifically, the max parameters for extendedStates
 and localizedExtendedStates have been removed and the new methods
 attribute, accessibleWithCaret and relationTargetsOfType have been
 added. I assume this was unintentional in this latest version. This
 critical, as it will breka binary compatibility.
Yes, That was unintentional.  I diffed the old and new IAccessible2 and
fixed the problems.


 AccessibleDocument.idl:
 Regarding IAccessibleDocument::anchorTarget, I wonder whether a
 relation fits here, which would eliminate the need for this interface.
 I think this was discussed before, but I can't remember why this idea
 was dropped. After all, it just returns an accessible.
Back on 12 Feb 12 you said:
I feel a relation fits well enough here, but I don't feel strongly
enough about it to fight for it if others disagree. I'd pose the
question: what makes this so special as to justify a new method? Why is
it more special than, say, flowsTo or labelledBy? I guess it doesn't fit
relations entirely, as it isn't strictly related so much as state
information. If that argument is consensus, fair enough.
And I responded:
Thanks Jamie, It appears there is no strong preference by anyone for any
of the various options.  Your observation about state vs relationship is
interesting and is enough to motivate me to choose a method over a relation.

 AccessibleHypertext2.idl:
 The comments for the IAccessibleHypertext2 interface say:
  The %IAccessibleHypertext interface is the main interface to expose
   hyperlinks in a document, typically a text document...
 This is a bit confusing, as this documentation is for
 IAccessibleHypertext2, not IAccessibleHypertext. It should probably
 just mention that this extends IAccessibleHypertext.
 The same goes for IAccessibleText2.
Thanks Jamie, I fixed that.

 I'll reply to Alex's feedback separately.

 Thanks,
 Jamie

 On 21/09/2012 12:22 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 I finished up the IA2 1.3 work over the weekend but due to some changes
 on the LF web site am unable to post it there.  I've provided it at
 a11ysoft.com.  Please review it.  I won't get to the object attributes
 until later (to add explicit-name).

 documentation: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html
 zip file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2.zip

 The one bug I see so far is that I don't have a link for the
 IAccessible2 interface on the main page.  That is at:
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/interface_i_accessible2.html

 The zip file contains everything I'll eventually post on the LF site,
 among other things, changelog.txt and the merged IDL file,
 ia2_api_all.idl.

 Pete
 -- 
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 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
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 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Plea for a new function

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Brett, Is this still an issue for you?  We're very near the end of
discussions for IA2 1.3 and wanted to see if more discussion is needed
on this issue.  -Pete

On 11/26/12 7:03 PM, James Teh wrote:
 On 27/11/2012 8:02 AM, Brett Lewis wrote:
 I am getting the Iaccessible tree.  I then find that I want the text
 attributes for one of my leaf nodes and find that I have to go back
 up the Iaccessible tree to find the nearest Iaccessible node that
 allow QI to IAccessibleText and then trying to figure out how to map
 the result back down to my Iaccessible leaf node.
 If you can, for Mozilla, it's best to ignore leaf nodes altogether;
 i.e. pretend they don't exist. That way, you're only dealing with
 nodes that support IAccessibleText. However, there may well be a good
 reason you can't do this.

 Jamie


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/4/13 8:52 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete. It looks good. Perhaps I'd change In some cases an
 application's accessible tree is such that an object can have a
 logical parent which is not its parent in the tree of accessibles. to
 ... such that objects can be in a logical parent-child relationship
 which is different from hierarchy in the accessible tree.
Thanks Alex, I changed the text.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 On 2/4/13 8:16 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 Hi, Pete. Thank you for getting back on this. Answering inline.

 1) It makes sense to allow IAccessible2_2::attribute to take sequence
 of attribute names like margin-left;margin-right; to get these
 attribute values for a single call.

 Is this important enough to add additional development effort for server
 side implementers?

 Let's leave it out of IA2 1.3. Otherwise I afraid we never get it
 done. If the feature is needed by AT then it can be prototyped in the
 browser before we put it into spec since it doesn't require the
 interface changes.

 3) Any specific reason to use long for nTargets in
 relationTargetsOfType since it seems it never takes negative values?

 It's a good point, but since an unsigned long wasn't used anywhere else it
 seems like at least for the sake of consistency to leave it as is.

 I don't mind.

 6) IAccessibleHypertext2::hyperlinks. Just to make sure: we decided to
 go with array instead EnumVariant? Do AT want to get all items at once
 even if the document is big and has many links?

 Back on 14 Aug 2012 you agreed that the array would be preferred in order to
 keep it consistent with the array returned by
 IAccessible2_2::relationTargetsOfType.

 If I agreed then ok :) It seems our discussion is many years long. I
 can hardly remember where we started from. I think my point was that
 obtaining all hyperlinks can be slow. If it is an issue then we can
 address it the next round if necessary.

 8) IA2_RELATION_NODE_PARENT_OF This object is a parent of a target
 object. It's not clear as well since it doesn't answer why
 get_accParent doesn't work. Maybe you should say it's a logical parent
 and the relation is reverse to RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF. It is used, for
 example, for flat structured trees.

 I could remove it.  Noone else showed interest in it other than for symmetry
 with IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF.  The comment about get_accParent is a good
 one.  You asked for this new relation back on 9 Nov 09 because you added it
 for ATK and wanted to enhance the symmetry between the ATK and IA2
 interfaces.  Or I could just add another sentence, This relation is the
 reciprocal of IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF.  I didn't understand the comment
 about flat structured trees but if you want to keep this relation please
 provide an additional sentence.

 We shouldn't remove it. It's needed for sync with ATK. Also this
 constant was settled down in ARIA spec implementation guide already :)

 If you use logical parent instead parent (i.e. not a parent in the
 accessible tree) then it should be fine. It can sound This object is
 a logical parent of a target object. This relation is the reciprocal
 of IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF.

 About flat trees. The accessible tree may look like:

 div role=tree
   div role=treeitem level=1item/div
   div role=treeitem level=2sub item/div
 /div

 in this case parent for 'item' and 'subitem' is 'tree' but logical
 parent of 'subitem' is 'item'.

 I updated the comments as follows.  Please review.

 /** This object is a logical child of a target object.  This relation is the
 reciprocal
  of the IA2_RELATION_NODE_PARENT_OF relation. In some cases an application's
 accessible
  tree is such that an object can have a logical parent which is not its
 parent in the
  tree of accessibles. */
 const WCHAR *const IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF = LnodeChildOf;

 /** This object is a logical parent of a target object. This relation is the
 reciprocal
  of the IA2_RELATION_NODE_CHILD_OF relation. In some cases an application's
 accessible
  tree is such that an object can have a logical parent which is not its
 parent in the
  tree of accessibles. */
 const WCHAR *const IA2_RELATION_NODE_PARENT_OF = LnodeParentOf;


 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Alex, I am going to try to get some momentum going on this again...


 On 9/23/12 11:52 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 Hi, Pete. Here's my two cents.

 1) It makes sense to allow IAccessible2_2::attribute to take sequence
 of attribute names like margin-left;margin-right; to get these
 attribute values for a single call.

 Is this important enough to add additional development effort for server
 side implementers?

 2) It'd be nice to add a reference to relation constants for
 relationTargetsOfType method description, see [in] type The requested
 relation type.

 Done.

 3) Any specific reason to use long for nTargets

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Rich, At this point, since we couldn't find consensus and since this
release was supposed to done last Fall and since I was informed that
noone has implemented or shown a need for the three clipboard
operations, I'm inclined to not hold up the release any further and
handle this in a follow-on release if a project comes along that needs
clipboard functionality and provides resource to drive the spec toward a
well thought out definition of the clipboard methods.

Pete

On 2/4/13 8:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Hi Pete,

 The reason for the editing functions was to allow a voice reco
 solution to select text, edit it, and perform clipboard operations for
 the mobility impaired. It is additional work to have a voice reco
 solution have to go through the additional work of doing the
 additional keyboard simulations for doing that function.

 So, these are single actions. AccessibleEditableText also allows you
 to replace text, and set attributes, which takes offsets and
 replacement text/attributes. Accessible actions are single action
 functions that don't take parameters. ReplaceText is not the same as
 pasting from the clipboard. It is really nice to have all the features
 in the same interface. Note: One could bind the single command
 functions (cut, copy, paste) to the same actions in accessible actions.

 The other problem you have with actions is where do you apply it. Do
 you know to apply it only to the document. If Editable text is applied
 to text content within the document then you should now where to find
 the interface.

 Rich


 Rich Schwerdtfeger

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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/4/13 4:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Did you check with Nuance? What appends if replacetext is removed?
If you have a contact at Nuance please ask them to join the list.

Only the clipboard methods are deprecated, which bascially means don't
use the cut/copy/paste methods until the IA2 spec can be changed to
support the varying implementations and ambiguities of clipboard
functionality.  The rest of the methods are not deprecated, i.e.
deleteText, insertText, replaceText, and setAttributes.  Does that
clarification help at all?

 Even if Nuance has not implemented it for say FF has someone
 approached them? We can' t just  be supporting vision impairments.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Rich, At this point, since we couldn't find consensus and since
 this release was supposed to done last Fall and since I was informed
 that noone has implemented or shown a need for the three clipboard
 operations, I'm inclined to not hold up the release any further and
 handle this in a follow-on release if a project comes along that
 needs clipboard functionality and provides resource to drive the spec
 toward a well thought out definition of the clipboard methods.

 Pete

 On 2/4/13 8:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Hi Pete,

 The reason for the editing functions was to allow a voice reco
 solution to select text, edit it, and perform clipboard operations
 for the mobility impaired. It is additional work to have a voice
 reco solution have to go through the additional work of doing the
 additional keyboard simulations for doing that function.

 So, these are single actions. AccessibleEditableText also allows you
 to replace text, and set attributes, which takes offsets and
 replacement text/attributes. Accessible actions are single action
 functions that don't take parameters. ReplaceText is not the same as
 pasting from the clipboard. It is really nice to have all the
 features in the same interface. Note: One could bind the single
 command functions (cut, copy, paste) to the same actions in
 accessible actions.

 The other problem you have with actions is where do you apply it. Do
 you know to apply it only to the document. If Editable text is
 applied to text content within the document then you should now
 where to find the interface.

 Rich


 Rich Schwerdtfeger


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet

The methods are replaced with IAccessible2_2::relationTargetsOfType.

One of today's edits was to add text to the doxygen commentary pointing
this out.

Pete

On 2/4/13 5:14 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 It appears the relations were moved to the new ia22 interface. Is that
 why you are deprecating the relations interface?

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger
 sch...@us.ibm.com mailto:sch...@us.ibm.com wrote:

 Whe are relations deprecated? They are used extensively in both FF,
 Chrome, and Symphony.

 Rich

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:


 On 10/10/12 1:29 AM, James Teh wrote:
 Hi all,

 Sorry for taking so long. Here is my feedback:

 Accessible2.idl:
 IAccessible2 has been removed from the Interfaces section. It
 should still be included. (I see Pete has already acknowledged this.)
 I'm not sure it makes sense to say the older interfaces (except
 IAccessibleTable, which has essentially been completely replaced)
 are deprecated, as the newer ones subclass them.
 I've removed the deprecated text from IAHypertext and IAText.  I
 think it still make sense to indicate IARelation is deprecated.
 The IAccessible2 interface still contains the modifications
 relevant to IAccessible2_2. Specifically, the max parameters for
 extendedStates and localizedExtendedStates have been removed and
 the new methods attribute, accessibleWithCaret and
 relationTargetsOfType have been added. I assume this was
 unintentional in this latest version. This critical, as it will
 breka binary compatibility.
 Yes, That was unintentional.  I diffed the old and new IAccessible2
 and fixed the problems.


 AccessibleDocument.idl:
 Regarding IAccessibleDocument::anchorTarget, I wonder whether a
 relation fits here, which would eliminate the need for this
 interface. I think this was discussed before, but I can't remember
 why this idea was dropped. After all, it just returns an accessible.
 Back on 12 Feb 12 you said:
 I feel a relation fits well enough here, but I don't feel strongly
 enough about it to fight for it if others disagree. I'd pose the
 question: what makes this so special as to justify a new method? Why
 is it more special than, say, flowsTo or labelledBy? I guess it
 doesn't fit relations entirely, as it isn't strictly related so
 much as state information. If that argument is consensus, fair enough.
 And I responded:
 Thanks Jamie, It appears there is no strong preference by anyone for
 any of the various options.  Your observation about state vs
 relationship is interesting and is enough to motivate me to choose a
 method over a relation.

 AccessibleHypertext2.idl:
 The comments for the IAccessibleHypertext2 interface say:
  The %IAccessibleHypertext interface is the main interface to expose
   hyperlinks in a document, typically a text document...
 This is a bit confusing, as this documentation is for
 IAccessibleHypertext2, not IAccessibleHypertext. It should probably
 just mention that this extends IAccessibleHypertext.
 The same goes for IAccessibleText2.
 Thanks Jamie, I fixed that.

 I'll reply to Alex's feedback separately.

 Thanks,
 Jamie

 On 21/09/2012 12:22 PM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 I finished up the IA2 1.3 work over the weekend but due to some
 changes
 on the LF web site am unable to post it there.  I've provided it at
 a11ysoft.com http://a11ysoft.com.  Please review it.  I won't
 get to the object attributes
 until later (to add explicit-name).

 documentation: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html
 zip file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2.zip

 The one bug I see so far is that I don't have a link for the
 IAccessible2 interface on the main page.  That is at:
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/interface_i_accessible2.html

 The zip file contains everything I'll eventually post on the LF site,
 among other things, changelog.txt and the merged IDL file,
 ia2_api_all.idl.

 Pete
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2013-02-04 Thread Pete Brunet


On 2/4/13 5:20 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Partially.

 So, cut, copy copy selected text to the clipboard. The details are
 handled by the rouser. Paste pasts to selected text or the insertion
 point (collapsed selection). What is the concern about clipboard
 functionality?
I'll have to dig through a month's worth of discussion on the list back
in June 2011.  I'll try to get to that at some point during the week. 
If you have time to look at it sooner look through the thread with
subject, next changes to IAccessible2 here:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-June/thread.html

 Rich

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:


 On 2/4/13 4:56 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Did you check with Nuance? What appends if replacetext is removed?
 If you have a contact at Nuance please ask them to join the list.

 Only the clipboard methods are deprecated, which bascially means
 don't use the cut/copy/paste methods until the IA2 spec can be
 changed to support the varying implementations and ambiguities of
 clipboard functionality.  The rest of the methods are not deprecated,
 i.e. deleteText, insertText, replaceText, and setAttributes.  Does
 that clarification help at all?

 Even if Nuance has not implemented it for say FF has someone
 approached them? We can' t just  be supporting vision impairments.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com
 mailto:p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:

 Hi Rich, At this point, since we couldn't find consensus and since
 this release was supposed to done last Fall and since I was
 informed that noone has implemented or shown a need for the three
 clipboard operations, I'm inclined to not hold up the release any
 further and handle this in a follow-on release if a project comes
 along that needs clipboard functionality and provides resource to
 drive the spec toward a well thought out definition of the
 clipboard methods.

 Pete

 On 2/4/13 8:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
 Hi Pete,

 The reason for the editing functions was to allow a voice reco
 solution to select text, edit it, and perform clipboard operations
 for the mobility impaired. It is additional work to have a voice
 reco solution have to go through the additional work of doing the
 additional keyboard simulations for doing that function.

 So, these are single actions. AccessibleEditableText also allows
 you to replace text, and set attributes, which takes offsets and
 replacement text/attributes. Accessible actions are single action
 functions that don't take parameters. ReplaceText is not the same
 as pasting from the clipboard. It is really nice to have all the
 features in the same interface. Note: One could bind the single
 command functions (cut, copy, paste) to the same actions in
 accessible actions.

 The other problem you have with actions is where do you apply it.
 Do you know to apply it only to the document. If Editable text is
 applied to text content within the document then you should now
 where to find the interface.

 Rich


 Rich Schwerdtfeger


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Proposal for html5 media

2012-10-09 Thread Pete Brunet

Sylvia, After all our discussion we came to the consensus that no
changes are needed to IA2 with the exception of adding three action
constants.  See
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2011-July/001482.html

I'm glad you posted because I had forgotten to add those constants.

Pete

On 10/8/12 9:14 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
 Hi all,

 just getting back to this thread - did we manage to add this
 functionality to iAccessible2 1.3?

 Also, I wonder if we just re-use the play() and pause() functionality
 of the browser, whether we're going to cause triggering events for
 these that we would rather not. E.g. let's say a developer attaches
 the display of a custom message overlay to video.pause() which the
 user has to acknowledge. We wouldn't want a blind person to have to
 act on every single one of these just because they are using a
 screenreader that supports live regions for audio descriptions.

 Cheers,
 Silvia.


 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:01 PM, James Teh ja...@nvaccess.org wrote:
 On 22/07/2011 11:32 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
 Do we need a state to indicate if this is actually the requested way
 of dealing with over-long description cues? I mean: some users may
 want the interface to wait until presentationDone, but others may
 want the video to interrupt the aria-live reading and keep the video
 at real-time speed.
 If we did have such a state, what would set it? This would require the
 app (the browser) to know what the user preferred. There are two ways of
 doing this without the need for a new state:
 1. The browser knows the user doesn't want the video to pause and resume
 due to descriptions, so it doesn't bother to set live:interactive or
 whatever we use; or
 2. The AT knows the user doesn't want to pause/resume, so it just
 doesn't bother to open, signal completion or close the live region object.

 It's interesting for me to see that we want to do text descriptions
 actually with the aria-live feature rather than introduce another
 feature that just behaves almost the same as aria-live. I'm happy if
 that works out!
 I think it's important to separate aria-live from live regions as a
 general concept. Personally, I see them as separate (but related).
 aria-live is just one particular implementation or producer of live
 regions. Live regions could just as well be used by desktop applications
 that have nothing at all to do with the web (and thus ARIA).

 I think it makes sense to generalise concepts and extend existing
 features, rather than introducing entirely new ones that do very similar
 things. It makes the feature more flexible in the longrun, as well as
 making implementation simpler for everyone.

 Jamie

 --
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 Email: ja...@nvaccess.org
 Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
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[Accessibility-ia2] IA2 1.3 ready for review

2012-09-20 Thread Pete Brunet

I finished up the IA2 1.3 work over the weekend but due to some changes
on the LF web site am unable to post it there.  I've provided it at
a11ysoft.com.  Please review it.  I won't get to the object attributes
until later (to add explicit-name).

documentation:  http://a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html
zip file: http://a11ysoft.com/ia2.zip

The one bug I see so far is that I don't have a link for the
IAccessible2 interface on the main page.  That is at:
http://www.a11ysoft.com/ia2/docs/html/interface_i_accessible2.html

The zip file contains everything I'll eventually post on the LF site,
among other things, changelog.txt and the merged IDL file, ia2_api_all.idl.

Pete 
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessible2_2 inherits from IAccessible

2012-09-12 Thread Pete Brunet

Thanks.  I'll change it so IA2_2, IAHypertext2, and IAText2 inherit from
their predecessors.  -Pete

On 9/12/12 1:44 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Inheritance seems to more comfortable for consumers since they can
 save QI thing. On the another hand each IA2 object acquires 4 more
 bytes. It seems each approach has benefits but it's reasonable to
 follow Jamie's suggestion.
 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 On 9/11/12 5:36 PM, James Teh wrote:

 On 12/09/2012 12:45 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

 In the prior release I didn't do
 that for IATable2, but your request makes sense and I can make that
 change for IAccessible2_2.

 I think it's okay for IATable2 because the interface had a very specific
 purpose and was a fairly radical change from the older interface; i.e. it
 wasn't mostly duplicate methods. In contrast, IA2 is a rather broad
 interface and IA2_2 duplicates most of IA2.

 What is your opinion for IAText2 and IAHypertext2?

 Iirc, they only introduce new methods (rather than radically changing the
 fundamentals of the interface), so they should just contain new methods.
 Again, the question of inheritance is open. Personally, I have a slight
 preference for inheritance, but it's worth noting that with MSHTML,
 Microsoft doesn't inherit from the older interface; e.g. IHTMLElement2
 doesn't inherit from IHTMLElement.

 Thanks for that input Jamie.  I need some input from others on whether
 IAText2 and IAHypertext2 should inherit from their prior versions.
 IAHypertext adds the hyperlinks (plural) method.  IAText2 adds the
 attributeRange method.

 Same question re IA2_2 and whether it should inherit from IA2.  There are 3
 new methods: attribute (by type), accessibleWithCaret, and
 relationTargetsOfType.

 Pete


 Jamie


 --
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 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] object attributes as VARAINT

2012-09-12 Thread Pete Brunet


On 9/9/12 3:11 AM, James Teh wrote:
 Hi.
 This does make sense, though there are a few issues:
 1. This creates inconsistency between fetching all attributes at once
 and fetching a single attribute. Maybe this isn't important; I'm not
 sure.
 2. Most of the integer attributes aren't strictly integers across the
 spec and various implementations. For example, Firefox seems to
 provide units in px, but I'm pretty sure the spec says mm.

 As for creating extra work for implementers, even in C++, working with
 basic VARIANTs isn't too difficult. In some ways, parsing strings is
 probably harder.
I was thinking of the extra work related to the fact that there would be
one set of code to build up the full attribute string and another to
create the VARIANT, but maybe the hard part was to create the full
attribute string and the trivial part is to create the VARIANT.

I don't mind using a VARIANT, but based on my work situation it would be
best if someone took on the job of updating the wiki document to include
what is returned by IA2_2::attribute for each object attribute.

 Jamie

 On 8/09/2012 10:38 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 Hi Alex, At least from the perspective of the spec I don't have time to
 make this change, i.e. I think it would take quite a bit of time for me
 to specify which VARIANT type is returned for each of the attributes in
 the spec.  Some else could pick up that work though. Updating the method
 from BSTR to VARIANT would be easy enough though.  Is this also extra
 work for the implementers?  -Pete

 On 9/7/12 7:20 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi. Since we are going to introduce a method that allows to fetch
 object attribute by name then it should be nice if we are able to
 return typed value. For example, if the AT wants a margin-top object
 attribute then the server could return an integer.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] object attributes as VARAINT

2012-09-12 Thread Pete Brunet

Hi Alex, I looked through all the object attributes (existing as
documented in the wiki plus the new ones we've recently documented as
additions) and the only non-string type I found was the list level which
is an integer, but it's a sub-attribute which would not be returned by
itself.  Since there are no non-string attributes it makes sense that
the IA2_2::attribute (by type) method should return a BSTR.  -Pete

On 9/12/12 8:15 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 I was thinking of the extra work related to the fact that there would be one
 set of code to build up the full attribute string and another to create the
 VARIANT, but maybe the hard part was to create the full attribute string and
 the trivial part is to create the VARIANT.
 Indeed it adds complexity for implementers. The point of VARIANT is to
 avoid int to string (browser) and string to int (AT) conversions.
 After all this method is just an extension of API which allows to keep
 the conversations between the server and AT faster, thus if the server
 decides to implement only canonical version then it keeps working.

 I don't mind using a VARIANT, but based on my work situation it would be
 best if someone took on the job of updating the wiki document to include
 what is returned by IA2_2::attribute for each object attribute.
 I'd suggest to do that after prototyping so we don't do mistakes in
 hurry. Let's say the string is expected for now and VARIANT is
 reserved for the future.

 Alex.


 On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 On 9/9/12 3:11 AM, James Teh wrote:

 Hi.
 This does make sense, though there are a few issues:
 1. This creates inconsistency between fetching all attributes at once and
 fetching a single attribute. Maybe this isn't important; I'm not sure.
 2. Most of the integer attributes aren't strictly integers across the spec
 and various implementations. For example, Firefox seems to provide units in
 px, but I'm pretty sure the spec says mm.

 As for creating extra work for implementers, even in C++, working with basic
 VARIANTs isn't too difficult. In some ways, parsing strings is probably
 harder.

 I was thinking of the extra work related to the fact that there would be one
 set of code to build up the full attribute string and another to create the
 VARIANT, but maybe the hard part was to create the full attribute string and
 the trivial part is to create the VARIANT.

 I don't mind using a VARIANT, but based on my work situation it would be
 best if someone took on the job of updating the wiki document to include
 what is returned by IA2_2::attribute for each object attribute.


 Jamie

 On 8/09/2012 10:38 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:

 Hi Alex, At least from the perspective of the spec I don't have time to
 make this change, i.e. I think it would take quite a bit of time for me
 to specify which VARIANT type is returned for each of the attributes in
 the spec.  Some else could pick up that work though. Updating the method
 from BSTR to VARIANT would be easy enough though.  Is this also extra
 work for the implementers?  -Pete

 On 9/7/12 7:20 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 Hi. Since we are going to introduce a method that allows to fetch
 object attribute by name then it should be nice if we are able to
 return typed value. For example, if the AT wants a margin-top object
 attribute then the server could return an integer.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


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 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessible2_2 inherits from IAccessible

2012-09-11 Thread Pete Brunet

Thanks Jamie, I can make that change.  In the prior release I didn't do
that for IATable2, but your request makes sense and I can make that
change for IAccessible2_2.

What is your opinion for IAText2 and IAHypertext2?

I'll work on this over the weekend and hopefully have something ready
for next week.

Pete
 
On 9/10/12 9:02 PM, James Teh wrote:
 Hi Pete and all,

 I can't remember whether this has been covered before, but I think
 completely replacing IAccessible2 with IAccessible2_2 rather than just
 extending will make life very difficult for both AT and app developers
 alike. I understand that it'd be nice to clean up IAccessible2 by
 removing deprecated methods and parameters. However, the reality is
 that IAccessible2_2 isn't going to be implemented by every vendor
 overnight and we will still need to deal with IAccessible2 in older
 versions of apps even if/once it is. With the current IAccessible2_2
 approach, every vendor will have to implement all of the duplicated
 methods twice, once for IAccessible2 and once for IAccessible2_2. It
 essentially has to be treated as a new API even though most of the
 methods are the same.

 The deprecated methods in IAccessible2 obviously still need to be
 marked as deprecated. I think IAccessible2_2 should just contain the
 new methods. Whether it inherits from IAccessible2 is an open question
 and doesn't matter as much. I think this would make sense, but I'm
 happy either way.

 Thoughts?

 Jamie

 On 8/09/2012 10:43 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 I am creating IAccessible2_2 to make some changes:
 - add accessibleWithCaret
 - add relationTargetsOfType
 - remove nRelations/relation/relations
 - add attribute // return object attribute by name
 - remove unused [in] parameter on extendedStates and
 localizedExtendedStates

 I could also change this to remove the unneeded inheritance from
 IAccessible, but that might cause too much work for those reworking code
 from IAccessible2.  Is that true?

 Pete
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessible2_2 inherits from IAccessible

2012-09-11 Thread Pete Brunet


On 9/11/12 5:36 PM, James Teh wrote:
 On 12/09/2012 12:45 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
 In the prior release I didn't do
 that for IATable2, but your request makes sense and I can make that
 change for IAccessible2_2.
 I think it's okay for IATable2 because the interface had a very
 specific purpose and was a fairly radical change from the older
 interface; i.e. it wasn't mostly duplicate methods. In contrast, IA2
 is a rather broad interface and IA2_2 duplicates most of IA2.

 What is your opinion for IAText2 and IAHypertext2?
 Iirc, they only introduce new methods (rather than radically changing
 the fundamentals of the interface), so they should just contain new
 methods. Again, the question of inheritance is open. Personally, I
 have a slight preference for inheritance, but it's worth noting that
 with MSHTML, Microsoft doesn't inherit from the older interface; e.g.
 IHTMLElement2 doesn't inherit from IHTMLElement.
Thanks for that input Jamie.  I need some input from others on whether
IAText2 and IAHypertext2 should inherit from their prior versions. 
IAHypertext adds the hyperlinks (plural) method.  IAText2 adds the
attributeRange method.

Same question re IA2_2 and whether it should inherit from IA2.  There
are 3 new methods: attribute (by type), accessibleWithCaret, and
relationTargetsOfType.

Pete

 Jamie


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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Getting the document accessible

2012-09-10 Thread Pete Brunet

The new IDL for version 1.3 is pretty much ready to go.  The only thing
I haven't done is to add the 4 relations:

IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_TAB
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_WINDOW
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_APPLICATION

Is there an issue with plugin container or can that be handled via
getting the parent?

Pete

On 9/9/12 3:13 AM, James Teh wrote:
 On 8/09/2012 10:14 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 We had an issue with plugins (find a plugin container from plugin) but
 new relation might not be a fix here. Jamie?
 I don't believe a new relation is the correct solution. The plugin
 container really should be the parent of the plugin.

 Jamie
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[Accessibility-ia2] ia2_api_all.idl

2012-09-10 Thread Pete Brunet

I was getting some errors when using ia2_api_all.idl (the merged API
file) and to fix it I removed all the IDL files that have been
deprecated, i.e. IA2, IATable, IAText, and IAHypertext which have been
replaced with IA2_2, IATable2, IAText2, and IAHypertext2.  Is that OK? 
With some more work I'm sure I could fix this if it's a problem but I
don't want to spend the time if those old IDL files aren't needed in the
merged IDL file.

Pete
-- 
*Pete Brunet*

a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
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Skype: pete.brunet
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Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Getting the document accessible

2012-09-07 Thread Pete Brunet


On 8/15/12 7:44 PM, James Teh wrote:
 As much as I'd love a way to search descendants quickly (in theory),
 one major problem with searching by attributes is that there are a lot
 of properties which aren't attributes; e.g. role and states. I don't
 really have a good alternative, but even if we make fake attributes
 for the purposes of searching (i.e. they aren't actually exposed as
 object attributes), this seems a bit contrary to the rest of the API.

 Also, is there a reason a relation doesn't fit for getting the
 document accessible?
I missed responding to this.  Using relations is OK with me and seems to
be preferred.  I assume this would be implemented on a particular object
and then point to a particular kind of containing object and that there
would need to be several kinds of relations, e.g. ones for document,
tab, window, and application have been mentioned, e.g.

IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_DOCUMENT
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_TAB
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_WINDOW
IA2_RELATION_CONTAINING_APPLICATION

Are there others?  Are these the right names, e.g. should it be TAB or
TAB_PANE?

Pete

 Jamie

 On 15/08/2012 4:02 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
 Hi, Pete.

 containerByAttrbute is OK with me, taking a BSTR like
 document:anchored;
 someOtherAttribute:someOtherValue;

 Do all of the attribute/value pairs have to be true?

 I missed the question.

 Regarding childrenByAttribute, although there hasn't been a request for
 this, should we add it?

 It should be good for reserve even if nobody raised a hand for it yet.
 AT should have a fast way to find children complying the certain
 criteria.

 Alex, Please explain the second, third, and fourth parameters:

 - [in] nsIAccessible* anchor
 Is this where to start the search?  Why not just start the search
 from the
 current accessible?

 say if you look for children in the document from certain point, for
 example, you fetch all headings starting from heading #5 (because your
 virtual cursor is on it). If NULL then accessible itself.

 - [in] bool lookIntoSubtree
 Is this is false does that mean to only look into one level below the
 starting point?

 I think yes but I started to think it would be more flexible to keep
 it as integer so that we can introduce more constant when we need. Of
 course any criteria can be specified in the list attribute:value
 like lookIntoSubtree;. Jamie, ideas?

 - [in] long desiredChildrenAmount,
 What is the purpose of limiting the array?  (There was a miscoding
 in the
 original IDL for IAccessible2::extendedStates,
 IAccessible2::localizedExtendedStates, IAccessibleAction::keyBinding
 that
 included a maxMembers parameter, but this has been fixed for
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedCells,
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedColumns, and
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedRows.)

 Idea of max count argument is performance win when AT doesn't need all
 items, it's similar to relations and hyperlinks we discussed recently.
 Indeed if you need next item then you shouldn't calculate all items.

 Thank you.
 Alex.


 On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
 I see we have a few things to finalize yet, one of which is this
 thread.

 containerByAttrbute is OK with me, taking a BSTR like
 document:anchored;
 someOtherAttribute:someOtherValue;

 Do all of the attribute/value pairs have to be true?

 Regarding childrenByAttribute, although there hasn't been a request for
 this, should we add it?

 Alex, Please explain the second, third, and fourth parameters:

 - [in] nsIAccessible* anchor
 Is this where to start the search?  Why not just start the search
 from the
 current accessible?

 - [in] bool lookIntoSubtree
 Is this is false does that mean to only look into one level below the
 starting point?

 - [in] long desiredChildrenAmount,
 What is the purpose of limiting the array?  (There was a miscoding
 in the
 original IDL for IAccessible2::extendedStates,
 IAccessible2::localizedExtendedStates, IAccessibleAction::keyBinding
 that
 included a maxMembers parameter, but this has been fixed for
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedCells,
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedColumns, and
 IAccessibleTable2::selectedRows.)

 I'd like to finalize all these discussions ASAP so we can finish off
 the 1.3
 update so please comment.

 Pete


 On 3/4/12 9:44 PM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

 I find interesting the 5th option: containerOfAttributeValuePairs. It
 looks flexible. Its syntax covers 2-4 options. Not sure I like the
 name since it's pretty long (maybe containerByAttribute or selector?
 similar to DOM API).

 If we discuss the traversal API then we should consider an opposite
 method to get a children like childrenOfAttributeValuePairs
 (childrenByAttribute) that takes a point in accessible tree where we
 should start a search and returns an array of children like

 HRESULT childrenByAttribute(
[in] BSTR attributes,
[in] nsIAccessible* anchor,
[in] bool lookIntoSubtree,
[in] long desiredChildrenAmount,
[out, array] nsIAccessible

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Please review object attribute additions

2012-08-21 Thread Pete Brunet

On 8/21/12 4:51 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Hi, Pete. Few notes.

1) explicit-name description looks a little bit complicated. The
following short sentence explains well the idea of the attribute:
A true value indicates that the accessible name is different from,
and more meaningful than, the text that is returned from
IAccessibleText::text.
How about if I put that single sentence in the comments field and then
refer the reader to a note at the bottom of the list of attributes with
the full text (minus that sentence) that we had previously agreed on?

2) sort.

Comments: If the value is ascending or descending this indicates that an
object's items are sorted and the sorting algorithm used.
why is items are sorted not enough and it makes sense to mention the
sorting algorithm?
I changed it to the text from Jamie's following post:
The value can be either ascending or descending and indicates the order
in which an object's items are sorted.

3) atomic

True when all the objects in the accessibility tree below this object should
be presented as a whole
maybe from subtree instead in the accessibility tree below this object?

4) event-from-input. It's worth to notice that it works in-process
only since it doesn't make much sense for out-of-process client (two
different events may be targeted to the same object).

Thank you.
Alex.

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Pete Brunet p...@a11ysoft.com wrote:
Here is a list of some new IA2 object attributes. Thanks for a pre-review
by Alex and Jamie.

Please review these additions. The current set is listed at:
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/Accessibility/IAccessible2/ObjectAttributes

In new section, Common Attributes

Name: explicit-name
Values: true, false
Default: false
Reference:
Comments: (see the following)

Indicates that a content author has provided ancillary text in addition
to the primary text of an object and that the server has chosen to use
that ancillary text for this object's accessible name in preference to
the object's primary text.

A true value indicates that the accessible name is different from, and
more meaningful than, the text that is returned from
IAccessibleText::text. Typically an object's accessible name is taken
directly from the object's textual content and is equivalent to the text
from IAccessibleText::text, but a true value is returned when the server
has chosen to use ancillary text rather than the accessible's primary
textual content when generating the accessible name.

Some examples that could be seen in an IAccessible2 implementation of a
web browser are:

1) a href=http://www.adomain.com;content/a In this case the
accessible name will be content and explicit-name will be false.

2) a href=http://www.adomain.com; title=a titlecontent/a If the
title text is used for the accessible name, explicit-name will be true.

3) a href=http://www.adomain.com; aria-label=a labelcontent/a If
the aria-label text is used for accessible name, explicit-name will be true.

4) div id=labela label/divdiv role=radio
aria-labelledby=labelcontent/div If the label text is used for the
accessible name, explicit-name will be true.

If this value is true assistive technology may choose to present
the user with the accessible name rather than the text from
IAccessibleText::text.

and these from the Gecko spec at
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Accessibility/AT-APIs/Gecko/Attrs

Name: draggable
Values: true, false
Default: false
Reference:
Comments: true when the accessible object can be grabbed.

Name: dropeffect
Values: copy, move, link, execute, popup, none
Default: none
Reference:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-dropeffect
Comments: Indicates what functions can be performed when the dragged object
is released on the drop target. The values are defined as:
- copy:A duplicate of the source object will be dropped into the target.
- move:The source object will be removed from its current location and
dropped into the target.
- link:A reference or shortcut to the dragged object will be created in
the target object.
- execute: A function supported by the drop target is executed, using the
drag source as an input.
- popup: There is a popup menu or dialog that allows the user to choose one
of the drag operations (copy, move, link, execute) and any other drag
functionality, such as cancel.
- none: No operation can be performed; effectively cancels the drag
operation if an attempt is made to drop on this object.

Name: grabbed
Values: true, false
Default: false
Reference:
Comments: true when the accessible object has been selected for dragging.

Name: sort
Values: ascending, descending, none
Default: none
Reference: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-sort
Comments: If the value is ascending or descending this indicates that an
object's items are sorted and the sorting

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Please review object attribute additions

2012-08-21 Thread Pete Brunet

Alex, I see I missed #3 and #4. See below...

On 8/21/12 4:51 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Hi, Pete. Few notes.

2) sort.

3) atomic

True when all the objects in the accessibility tree below this object should
be presented as a whole
maybe from subtree instead in the accessibility tree below this object?
How's this: True when this object and its subtree should be presented as
a whole, when changes within it are considered important enough to be
presented automatically.

4) event-from-input. It's worth to notice that it works in-process
only since it doesn't make much sense for out-of-process client (two
different events may be targeted to the same object).
Is this set on the object that the event was fired on? Assuming that,
how about this: True if the root cause of the event fired on this object
was explicit user input (as opposed to a programmatic change). This
attribute is only useful for in-process Assistive Technology which can
check the attribute on the event handling thread.