Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
Hi. On Thursday 31 August 2006, Jonathan Scott Duff wrote: > On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 05:34:32PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > On Wednesday 30 August 2006 23:03, brian d foy wrote: > > > I in no way intended it to be funny or light. I fyou have a change, > > > send it in. Complaining about not having the source is no an excuse for > > > not sending changes. > > > > Well, sure. Here's my first change: > > > > 1. Add a button to the top saying "Online Tutorials". > > > > 2. Add the following HTML at the page pointed to it: > > > > http://www.shlomifish.org/perl-tutorials.html.wml > > > > I'll be waiting for it to be applied before I send my next change. > > Er, why? What if the stewards of learn.perl.org reject your change? > Perhaps you should start a dialogue regarding these changes first. They can reject my change, but it won't be good for learn.perl.org or be good for Perl. > > Yes, I realize you could consider the last 3 or so years of email a > "dialogue" but it's sounded more like a monologue to me. For instance, > bdf is under the impression that you want to "take over" learn.perl.org. > He is not alone in that impression. Most of your emails to this point > have sounded like "learn.perl.org sucks and I can make it better if > you'd just let me change it" > That were my emails, and these are indeed the case. I don't want to do anything that is against Perl, just to mend it so it will be better. > And above, presupposing that your changes will be applied doesn't win > you any friends either. If it's possible, you should try to start over > and be a little more humble in your requests. Start with "here's a small > change to learn.perl.org that I think will benefit the perl community" > and go from there. Your text above is agressive and pushy--"here's a > change, I'll be waiting for you to apply it" > > Be less pushy. > Be less pushy? After I was accused of being a liar? After people think I won't do anything if I get access to the source? After I don't understand why the source for learn.perl.org is unavailable, while the source for perl-begin.org has been available since its inception? After I wasn't able to subscribe to the beginners-workers mailing list? Fine. I'll be less pushy: <<< Hi people! Here's a nice change to learn.perl.org. Please, oh pretty please apply it. It will be good for you and it will be good for Perl. >>> I don't plan to take over learn.perl.org - I just want to improve it. > > > He has his own site. He can do whatever he wants > > > there. > > > > I know, which I am doing. Still I would like to see learn.perl.org > > improved too. And if perl-begin is in ship-shape but no one is aware of > > it, then what has the wise men helped with their ruling? > > Sounds like you've spent too little time promoting perl-begin. Maybe I did. > If the > "standard" perl sites aren't giving in to your requests, then a way to > make things better is to create and promote your own sites such that > they become the "standard". It doesn't matter if learn.perl.org is given > in books and what not if you do a good job promoting your site *and* > it's clearly a better resource. Darwin always wins in the end. > I'll do that. Regards, Shlomi Fish BTW: I'm in a bad mood now. Don't take what I said personally. - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 05:34:32PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: > On Wednesday 30 August 2006 23:03, brian d foy wrote: > > I in no way intended it to be funny or light. I fyou have a change, > > send it in. Complaining about not having the source is no an excuse for > > not sending changes. > > Well, sure. Here's my first change: > > 1. Add a button to the top saying "Online Tutorials". > > 2. Add the following HTML at the page pointed to it: > > http://www.shlomifish.org/perl-tutorials.html.wml > > I'll be waiting for it to be applied before I send my next change. Er, why? What if the stewards of learn.perl.org reject your change? Perhaps you should start a dialogue regarding these changes first. Yes, I realize you could consider the last 3 or so years of email a "dialogue" but it's sounded more like a monologue to me. For instance, bdf is under the impression that you want to "take over" learn.perl.org. He is not alone in that impression. Most of your emails to this point have sounded like "learn.perl.org sucks and I can make it better if you'd just let me change it" And above, presupposing that your changes will be applied doesn't win you any friends either. If it's possible, you should try to start over and be a little more humble in your requests. Start with "here's a small change to learn.perl.org that I think will benefit the perl community" and go from there. Your text above is agressive and pushy--"here's a change, I'll be waiting for you to apply it" Be less pushy. > > He has his own site. He can do whatever he wants > > there. > > I know, which I am doing. Still I would like to see learn.perl.org improved > too. And if perl-begin is in ship-shape but no one is aware of it, then what > has the wise men helped with their ruling? Sounds like you've spent too little time promoting perl-begin. If the "standard" perl sites aren't giving in to your requests, then a way to make things better is to create and promote your own sites such that they become the "standard". It doesn't matter if learn.perl.org is given in books and what not if you do a good job promoting your site *and* it's clearly a better resource. Darwin always wins in the end. my two cents, -Scott -- Jonathan Scott Duff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 23:03, brian d foy wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aleksandar > > Petrovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:22:33 +0200, brian d foy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > In article > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gabor > > > > > > Szabo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and > > >> the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? > > > > > > Sure it's acessible. That's how you get to see it. When you view the > > > site. you're downloading the source. > > > > Is this supposed to be funny? You know what they ment. > > I in no way intended it to be funny or light. I fyou have a change, > send it in. Complaining about not having the source is no an excuse for > not sending changes. Well, sure. Here's my first change: 1. Add a button to the top saying "Online Tutorials". 2. Add the following HTML at the page pointed to it: http://www.shlomifish.org/perl-tutorials.html.wml I'll be waiting for it to be applied before I send my next change. Now why do I need the source? 1. So I can use subversion to manage it. 2. So I can work with the templates and send diffs against them. 3. So I can make sure the site works fine on my home machine. 4. So *you'll* have less work to do. > > And, most likely, Shlomi having the source is not going to make his > situation any better. That's the fortune teller error. > He has his own site. He can do whatever he wants > there. I know, which I am doing. Still I would like to see learn.perl.org improved too. And if perl-begin is in ship-shape but no one is aware of it, then what has the wise men helped with their ruling? > He doesn't have to destroy what other people are doing. Why am I going to "destroy" what other people are doing? I've only asked for access to the source so I and other people can send patches against it, not commit access. So the maintainers of the site can prevent any "destruction" I send in their way from being applied. > He has a > social problem that he's making worse, and there's no reason to expect > anyone to want to deal with him. How does that has anything to do with my criticism against learn.perl.org and my offer to help make it better? And if you ask me (and other people on this list), at the moment, the disqualifier disqualifies based on his own defects. > > Plenty of other people have made things for the community without any > sort of blessing or hostile take-over of another site. I don't wish to do a hostile take-over of learn.perl.org - I want to help improve it. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aleksandar Petrovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:22:33 +0200, brian d foy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > In article > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gabor > > Szabo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and > >> the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? > > > > Sure it's acessible. That's how you get to see it. When you view the > > site. you're downloading the source. > > Is this supposed to be funny? You know what they ment. I in no way intended it to be funny or light. I fyou have a change, send it in. Complaining about not having the source is no an excuse for not sending changes. And, most likely, Shlomi having the source is not going to make his situation any better. He has his own site. He can do whatever he wants there. He doesn't have to destroy what other people are doing. He has a social problem that he's making worse, and there's no reason to expect anyone to want to deal with him. Plenty of other people have made things for the community without any sort of blessing or hostile take-over of another site. Shlomi is free to do the same, and no one is stopping him from doing that. CPAN Forum, www.cpanforum.com AnnoCPAN, www.annocpan.org Perlmonks, www.perlmonks.org Perl Mongers, www.pm.org perldoc.com, (now defunct) Kobes Search, cpan.uwinnipeg.ca
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:22:33 +0200, brian d foy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gabor Szabo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? Sure it's acessible. That's how you get to see it. When you view the site. you're downloading the source. Is this supposed to be funny? You know what they ment. Looks like you are realy pissed on Shlomi Fish ... While without looking at the archives I can't get whole picture - with what I've seen so far (ussual way life works - isn't it) you seem to be the bad guy. I'll leave any other comment untill after I checked the archives - and will try to be constructive now. The whole point is that site (learn.perl.org) get's lot of visitors (I hope so) since it's linked from many places - but all that is wasted since site content isn't maintained. At least it looks like that to me (and others it seems). Since I was most likely beginner more recently than you folks (started learning Perl some 3 - 4 years ago) I think my counts more than yours. The learn.perl.org website is not a very good site for a beginner. While it gives some very good references, beginners need more hand-holding sort to say. I still haven't found a single site that was realy good for beginners. Best thing I found was Perl forum on DevShed - but you can't count that. It is folish to expect from a beginner to read perldoc or similar. I tried that - and it didn't had much sence to me untill I learned at least some Perl basics. Only after that it started making sence. Exception to that is the tutorials section that seems to be underexposed as I haven't discovered it at first. My view of a site for Perl is one that: - would look good in means of Web 2.0 style - minimal but eyecatching design (python.org), - advocate Perl (again python.org - right hand column you see "NASA uses python" ...) - have content same/similar as perldoc tutorials - but only much more of it, that would cover everything from introduction to programming (using Perl of course) to bag-of-tricks from professionals. - would accept content submisions from people not directly involved with the site - with of course some sort of administration before it's published I see no reason why such a site couldn't integrate with Perl's documentation so that effort put in it could be recycled. Best regards, -- Aleksandar Petrović
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gabor Szabo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and > the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? Sure it's acessible. That's how you get to see it. When you view the site. you're downloading the source.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 14:37, Gabor Szabo wrote: > Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and > the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? > > Is there some security or licensing reason or technical? > > If it is available, then can you please point us to the repository? > Hear, hear! Regards, Shlomi Fish > I hope that if it was available and reasonable patches were accepted - > then it would be > much easier to add any changes to learn.perl.org - if one had the time > to do that. > Either Shlomi or anyone else in the community. > > Shlomi could still come up and complain that his patches are not accepted > but I hope he would then fine tune them so they do at least some of the > things he wants. > > Gabor -- - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 14:26, Nicholas Clark wrote: > On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 03:30:43PM -0500, brian d foy wrote: > > If you want to make a better site, go do it. Nobody is stopping you. > > Once it exists, *then* it's valid to request that it replaces > learn.perl.org Not before. > Well, it exists and has existed for several years now: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ As for transforming learn.perl.org into something better - I need its source code for doing that for crying out loud. So, where can I find it? Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
Can someone explain me why is the source code of learn.perl.org (and the other *.perl.org site) not publicly accessible? Is there some security or licensing reason or technical? If it is available, then can you please point us to the repository? I hope that if it was available and reasonable patches were accepted - then it would be much easier to add any changes to learn.perl.org - if one had the time to do that. Either Shlomi or anyone else in the community. Shlomi could still come up and complain that his patches are not accepted but I hope he would then fine tune them so they do at least some of the things he wants. Gabor
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 03:30:43PM -0500, brian d foy wrote: > If you want to make a better site, go do it. Nobody is stopping you. Once it exists, *then* it's valid to request that it replaces learn.perl.org Not before. We've been round in circles on this before. The way to escape and make progress is to JFDI and demonstrate a nicer site. Code speaks loudest. Nicholas Clark
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 11:28, Steffen Mueller wrote: > Rob Bryant schrieb: > > And I really don't see any reason you have to be such an a**hole. > > Don't repeat the mistakes you are criticizing. > > > Someone offers help and suggestions, and you call that person a liar. > > Nice. Beautiful. Reaffirms my cynical view of humanity completely. Give > > someone an opportunity to be aggressive, antagonistic, and hostile and > > they'll take it every time. > > Somebody else pointed out that the *exact* same discussion was brought > up by the same person before. Indeed, and that was a few years ago. Since then, nothing was done to correct them by the people who have access to learn.perl.org's sources, nor was I give access to them, so I can correct it myself. As I noted, a previous attempt at making http://www.perl.org/learn/ as an alternative to l.p.o was halted due to some hardware failures over at the perl NOC. So I've tried to bring it again now, in order to hopefully renew the efforts to make it better. > Some of his claims back then we shown to > be wrong. Repeating them when he has, in fact, better knowledge is at > best bending the truth. I omitted some of my original criticism, because I found it to be subjective. However, none of the claims I brought here "were shown to be wrong", at least not with arguments that I or many other people have agreed to. So I don't have "better knowledge" because my original claims still hold. > Whether or not that should be stated with full > force in a public forum is another discussion. Indeed. > > Putting it blunt sometimes saves everybody's time by preventing a > lengthy discussion. Actually, scrap the last sentence. It's not going to > work because people discuss bluntness instead. > Indeed. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
Rob Bryant schrieb: And I really don't see any reason you have to be such an a**hole. Don't repeat the mistakes you are criticizing. Someone offers help and suggestions, and you call that person a liar. Nice. Beautiful. Reaffirms my cynical view of humanity completely. Give someone an opportunity to be aggressive, antagonistic, and hostile and they'll take it every time. Somebody else pointed out that the *exact* same discussion was brought up by the same person before. Some of his claims back then we shown to be wrong. Repeating them when he has, in fact, better knowledge is at best bending the truth. Whether or not that should be stated with full force in a public forum is another discussion. Putting it blunt sometimes saves everybody's time by preventing a lengthy discussion. Actually, scrap the last sentence. It's not going to work because people discuss bluntness instead. Unsubscribe. Hence CC. Steffen
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 01:32, Aleksandar Petrovic wrote: > On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:27:00 +0200, Wiggins d'Anconia > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It really does seem like he just wants the learn.perl.org domain to > > point to the site he created. Of course this is the web, and if the > > content is that good it really doesn't matter what domain you have. > > > > Check the archives > > > > http://danconia.org > > I think that all three sites (perlmeme.org/, learn.perl.org and > perl-begin.berlios.de/) look like most of the sites back when I had an > Amiga 1200 :eek: Hmmm... interesting. Personally, I think that perlmeme.org does not look very bad. In any case, I'm well aware of the problematic design of perl-begin.berlios.de. At the moment, I'm looking for another design to rip (perhaps a skin of a popular open-source CMS, or CSS Zen Garden, or OSWD). However, if anyone can refer me to a professional web designer who will come up with an original design, that would be even better. > > You can pick just about any website of any other "web" programming > language and it's much much better. Not just from design point, but more > importantly content. > What content do you think is missing? > Perl needs better marketing/PR. And beside sites for beginers it needs > better advocation to business type people. > Right. > It also has lot's of misconceptions behind it - that should also be > addressed. Stuff like scripting language, slow, perl = cgi, cobol of the > web ... > Or write-only code, etc. I recall an article about "Perl Myths" on perl.com back then: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/01/10PerlMyths.html > Now instead of insulting each other, maybe we can actualy start doing > something about it in a more productive way? That was my original intention. > > BTW. Is there anyone on this list who is familiar with Public Relations? > I only attended a presentation on "The Hacker's Guide to Marketing". > PS. Don't get me wrong - there is much more to Perl than just web > programmig, but it's one of it's bigest markets - also the one that > brougth worlds attention to it. OK. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Wednesday 30 August 2006 00:46, Danny Brian wrote: > Guys, this discussion takes place annually. Don't think it's > isolated. Shlomi does the song and dance on a regular basis. > > I suggest that learn.perl.org just add a link to Shlomi's site and > spare us all a repeat in 2007. > That will not be enough. learn.perl.org is already pretty popular, linked from various places and has a high page rank. It needs to be revamped to make it better. Such ad-hoc solutions are easy, but don't really solve the large problem. I've offered some help in making learn.perl.org better, but without access to the site's code, I cannot write patches for it. OTOH, people can write patches to perl-begin (which I originated and am still maintaining) or to perlmeme.org (which I got involved in), because their sources are available online. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:27:00 +0200, Wiggins d'Anconia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It really does seem like he just wants the learn.perl.org domain to point to the site he created. Of course this is the web, and if the content is that good it really doesn't matter what domain you have. Check the archives http://danconia.org I think that all three sites (perlmeme.org/, learn.perl.org and perl-begin.berlios.de/) look like most of the sites back when I had an Amiga 1200 :eek: You can pick just about any website of any other "web" programming language and it's much much better. Not just from design point, but more importantly content. Perl needs better marketing/PR. And beside sites for beginers it needs better advocation to business type people. It also has lot's of misconceptions behind it - that should also be addressed. Stuff like scripting language, slow, perl = cgi, cobol of the web ... Now instead of insulting each other, maybe we can actualy start doing something about it in a more productive way? BTW. Is there anyone on this list who is familiar with Public Relations? PS. Don't get me wrong - there is much more to Perl than just web programmig, but it's one of it's bigest markets - also the one that brougth worlds attention to it. Regards, -- Aleksandar Petrović
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Aug 29, 2006, at 2:27 PM, Wiggins d'Anconia wrote:I suspect the problem is brian's memory is pretty good so he remembers the last time we had this very same discussion with Shlomi. Just listen for a while and I suspect the others on the list that were there then will chime in with the same points that always seem to come up when he sends the same critiques that were sent before, or they will (or would) say in effect what I am saying. It really does seem like he just wants the learn.perl.org domain to point to the site he created. Of course this is the web, and if the content is that good it really doesn't matter what domain you have. Check the archives http://danconia.org That may very well be the case but is that cause for name calling? How about something like "please Shlomi, we've been over this before... blablabla". I dunno, still seems out of line to me. Wish I did but I really don't have time to dig through the archives to read what happened in previous discussions though.chau!Tim Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
Guys, this discussion takes place annually. Don't think it's isolated. Shlomi does the song and dance on a regular basis. I suggest that learn.perl.org just add a link to Shlomi's site and spare us all a repeat in 2007. - Danny
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
Tim McIntyre wrote: > > On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:46 AM, Rob Bryant wrote: > >> brian d foy said the following on 8/29/2006 8:57 AM: >> >>> Completely unresponsive or just unresponsive to you? I don't see any >>> reason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially if >>> you are going to lie like you do in this post >> >> And I really don't see any reason you have to be such an a**hole. >> Someone offers help and suggestions, and you call that person a liar. >> Nice. Beautiful. Reaffirms my cynical view of humanity completely. >> Give someone an opportunity to be aggressive, antagonistic, and >> hostile and they'll take it every time. >> >> Unsubscribe. >> > > I concur completely! It's depressing that such a prolific (and I would > have thought respected... not so sure at the moment) perl developer as > Brian would so quickly resort to such sophomoric behavior. The name > calling was completely uncalled for and I for one applaud Shlomi's > efforts to try and improve the perl community. I suspect Brian has > either forgotten or just doesn't care what it's like to be a beginner. > This is after all an advocacy list and I would think we would want to > discuss any improvements to any aspect of the perl community in an open > and respectful way. > > Tim > > Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't > matter and those who matter don't mind. > - Dr. Seuss > > I suspect the problem is brian's memory is pretty good so he remembers the last time we had this very same discussion with Shlomi. Just listen for a while and I suspect the others on the list that were there then will chime in with the same points that always seem to come up when he sends the same critiques that were sent before, or they will (or would) say in effect what I am saying. It really does seem like he just wants the learn.perl.org domain to point to the site he created. Of course this is the web, and if the content is that good it really doesn't matter what domain you have. Check the archives http://danconia.org
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:46 AM, Rob Bryant wrote:brian d foy said the following on 8/29/2006 8:57 AM: Completely unresponsive or just unresponsive to you? I don't see anyreason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially ifyou are going to lie like you do in this post And I really don't see any reason you have to be such an a**hole. Someone offers help and suggestions, and you call that person a liar. Nice. Beautiful. Reaffirms my cynical view of humanity completely. Give someone an opportunity to be aggressive, antagonistic, and hostile and they'll take it every time.Unsubscribe. I concur completely! It's depressing that such a prolific (and I would have thought respected... not so sure at the moment) perl developer as Brian would so quickly resort to such sophomoric behavior. The name calling was completely uncalled for and I for one applaud Shlomi's efforts to try and improve the perl community. I suspect Brian has either forgotten or just doesn't care what it's like to be a beginner. This is after all an advocacy list and I would think we would want to discuss any improvements to any aspect of the perl community in an open and respectful way.TimBe who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
brian d foy said the following on 8/29/2006 8:57 AM: Completely unresponsive or just unresponsive to you? I don't see any reason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially if you are going to lie like you do in this post And I really don't see any reason you have to be such an a**hole. Someone offers help and suggestions, and you call that person a liar. Nice. Beautiful. Reaffirms my cynical view of humanity completely. Give someone an opportunity to be aggressive, antagonistic, and hostile and they'll take it every time. Unsubscribe.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Shlomi Fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't see any > > reason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially if > > you are going to lie like you do in this post. > So if you want to have a good rule of thumb for > tactfullness, it is to never accuse a fellow FOSS contributor of "lying". > Always take a minute to paraphrase your sentence more diplomatically I thought for a minute, decided that I think you are lying, and said so. I don't care if you feed starving orphans, save the planet from asteroids, or contribute to open source. When you deliberately tell falsehoods to further your personal agenda, I'm going to call you a liar. I stand by my statement, having demostrated that your claims are false. If you want to make a better site, go do it. Nobody is stopping you.
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
On Tuesday 29 August 2006 18:57, brian d foy wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Shlomi Fish > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now as I've mentioned before there are several huge problems with > > learn.perl.org: > > Your definition of "huge" is probably colored by "I didn't invent it". > No, it's not. > > 1. It hasn't been maintained in several years now. > > It's been updated for perldoc.perl.org (which is a lot younger than > "several" years) and lists the latest edition of Learning Perl, which > we published last year. OK, these are incremental improvements. But they are still not enough to make it up to par with http://perl-begin.berlios.de/. Who did the modifications? How can I or anyone else who desires maintain it further? > > > 2. Its front page contains a list of books, most of which are not > > available online and nothing else. > > The front page starts with a pointer to the Perl documentation. The > list of books are at the bottom. > This is very easy to miss due to the page design. > The first paragraph has links to www.cpan.org and www.perl.org. Between > those two, you have links to all of the important Perl information. Unless I'm mistaken, there isn't a link to any of the following resources there: 1. http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ 2. http://perlmeme.org/ 3. Any of the tutorials on http://perl-begin.berlios.de/tutorials/. 4. http://perl.net.au/ 5. http://perl.wikia.com/ 6. Many other resources linked on http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ Besides, these things belong in learn.perl.org too in a good place in the navigation menu. If people have to follow a relatively obscure link to a different site to get there, they probably won't. > > Who cares if the books are available online? Those are the books I > would recommend to people. You probably meant "Who cares if the books are not available online." Well, expecting someone to learn by a book he has to purchase is an admission of defeat. Welcome the Internet and Web 2.0 age. You can learn PHP fully from online resources. You can learn Python fully from online resources. Why do you have to buy a book in order to learn Perl? Unless of course, you don't want people to learn Perl without having to default on buying a book.[1] And the books don't belong on the front page[2]. They should be placed in a separate page freeing the front page for the introduction, some links, a navigatio menu, "What you can find on the site", etc. > > The "Online Library" link takes you to a page that has the full text of > several books available for free online. Fair enough. I didn't complain about that. Nevertheless, there should still be some navigation links with other categories useful online resources (see above). At the moment - there are none. > > > 3. There aren't any links to online tutorials anywhere on the site. > > Which tutorials do you want listed? > These for instance: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/tutorials/ And there are others on: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/tutorials/#other_lists > > 4. There aren't any links to other important online resources (wikis, > > mailing lists, etc. either. > > As I showed earlier, it already links to www.perl.org, as known as "The > Perl Directory". That's the only important link it really needs. > I disagree. People are less likely to follow a not-so-obvious link to a different site, instead of just repeatdly hitting all links in the navigation menu. And as I demonstrated, even www.perl.org has some big ommissions. > Mailing lists on the front page: tips, beginners, beginners-digest, > beginners-cgi, beginners-cgi-digest, release-announce, jobs Not all mailing lists: http://perl-begin.berlios.de/mailing-lists/ > > There is also a pointer to nntp.perl.org. > That's good. > > 5. The beginners-workers mailing list is closed for subscribers and has > > become > > completely unresponsive. > > Completely unresponsive or just unresponsive to you? It was completely unresponsive to me at least, when I tried to get it to integrate my work on what was to become perl-begin into learn.perl.org. No one responded despite several emails. When I asked the perl.org admins how to subscribe me to the list, I received an "it's a closed list" reply. My request to be added to it was not answered. > I don't see any > reason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially if > you are going to lie like you do in this post. I see many reasons for it to be open to subscription: * http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ * Possibly also http://producingoss.com/ (which I didn't fully read yet) may have some insights. If people can subscribe to this mailing list, it wouldn't mean that I or anybody else will be given a permission to send input there (as I already can, because the list is unmoderated). It just means that other people can also receive these emails, respond to them, and possibly act upon them. So more people will become involved. As for me "lying
Re: The Case for a New Site for Perl Beginners
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Shlomi Fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Now as I've mentioned before there are several huge problems with > learn.perl.org: Your definition of "huge" is probably colored by "I didn't invent it". > 1. It hasn't been maintained in several years now. It's been updated for perldoc.perl.org (which is a lot younger than "several" years) and lists the latest edition of Learning Perl, which we published last year. > 2. Its front page contains a list of books, most of which are not available > online and nothing else. The front page starts with a pointer to the Perl documentation. The list of books are at the bottom. The first paragraph has links to www.cpan.org and www.perl.org. Between those two, you have links to all of the important Perl information. Who cares if the books are available online? Those are the books I would recommend to people. The "Online Library" link takes you to a page that has the full text of several books available for free online. > 3. There aren't any links to online tutorials anywhere on the site. Which tutorials do you want listed? > 4. There aren't any links to other important online resources (wikis, mailing > lists, etc. either. As I showed earlier, it already links to www.perl.org, as known as "The Perl Directory". That's the only important link it really needs. Mailing lists on the front page: tips, beginners, beginners-digest, beginners-cgi, beginners-cgi-digest, release-announce, jobs There is also a pointer to nntp.perl.org. > 5. The beginners-workers mailing list is closed for subscribers and has > become > completely unresponsive. Completely unresponsive or just unresponsive to you? I don't see any reason it needs to be open to all subscribers, either, especially if you are going to lie like you do in this post.
