Re : [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Bruno Frandemiche]

http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/arch.htm
Architectures for Intelligent Systems
good day




- Message d'origine 
De : William Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
À : agi@v2.listbox.com
Envoyé le : Lundi, 31 Mars 2008, 23h35mn 42s
Objet : Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

On 26/03/2008, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.
>
>  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>
>  
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>

I've decided to go my own way and have started a new annotated text
book, trying to link in all the topics I think relevant to my current
state of work.

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/AACA_Textbook

I'll try putting in content in for each of those links. But coding for
the architecture is probably more pointful at this point. Once I have
it up and running on QEmu, I'll try and devote more time to education.

  Will Pearson

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com


  
_ 
Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Plus de moyens pour rester en contact. 
http://mail.yahoo.fr

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[William Pearson]

On 26/03/2008, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.
>
>  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>
>  
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>

I've decided to go my own way and have started a new annotated text
book, trying to link in all the topics I think relevant to my current
state of work.

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/AACA_Textbook

I'll try putting in content in for each of those links. But coding for
the architecture is probably more pointful at this point. Once I have
it up and running on QEmu, I'll try and devote more time to education.

  Will Pearson

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI textbook

[Mark Waser]

Finally be selective on whom you engage with on the AGI list ;-)


This should have been first.:-)

- Original Message - 
From: "Jean-paul Van Belle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI textbook


Hi Ben

Hereby my proposed additional topics / references for your wiki - aimed
at the more computer scienty/mathematically challenged (like me):
Sorry don't have the time to add directly to the wiki

AGI ARCHITECTURES (EXPANDS on the COGNITIVE ARCHITECTURES section)
Questions about any Would-Be AGI System. Ben Goertzel - May 20, 2002
Artificial General Intelligence: A Gentle Introduction - Pei Wang
Architectures for intelligent systems by J. F. Sowa
Cognitive Architectures: Research Issues and Challenges by Langley,
Laird & Rogers.
Choosing and getting started with a cognitive architecture to test and
use human-machine interfaces by Frank RITTER. MMI-Interaktiv, #7, Jun04
"Artificial General Intelligence" PowerPoint presentation by ??
"Artificial General Intelligence" - Goertzel, Ben; Pennachin, Cassio
(Eds). Chapter by Peter Voss  Four Contemporary AGI Designs: a
Comparative Treatment Sep2006 Stan FRANKLIN, Ben GOERTZEL, Alexei
SAMSONOVICH, Pei WANG
Mixing Cognitive Science Concepts with Computer Science Algorithms and
Data Structures: An Integrative Approach to Strong AI. Moshe Looks & Ben
Goertzel
Computational ARchitectures for Intelligence and Motivation  Darryl N.
Davis The 17th IEEE International Symposium on Intelligent Control ,
ISIC’02, Canada, Oct 2002
Considerations Regarding Human-Level Artificial Intelligence - Nils J.
Nilsson - Jan 2002
A Survey of Artificial Cognitive Systems: Implications for the
Autonomous Development of Mental Capabilities in Computational Agents
David Vernon.

AGENTS
Search and select depending on the nature of your AGI architecture.

AUTONOMIC COMPUTING
Any one of the IBM AC overview papers e.g.
Practical Autonomic Computing: Roadmap to Self Managing Technology A
White Paper Prepared for IBM
January 2006

BOTS
Read any document on AIML, check out on the Loebner prize and check the
source code of at least  one ChatterBot in your preferred programming
langague.

COGNITION
List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
Contemporary Approaches to Symbol Grounding - Moshe Looks
Interior Grounding, Reflection, and Self-Consciousness - Marvin Minsky
Intl Conf on Brain Mind &  Society, Japan 2005.
Solving the Symbol Grounding Problem: a Critical Review of Fifteen
Years of Research by  Mariarosaria Taddeo and Luciano Floridi
French, R. M. (2002). The Computational Modeling of Analogy -Making.
Trends in Cognitive  Sciences, 6(5), 200-205.

COMPLEXITY THEORY - any good overview

COMPUTATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
Feigenbaum - Grand Challenges for Computational Intelligence
Some paper on AIXI
Craenen & Eiben - Computational Intelligence 2002
Moshe Looks - Learning with Semantic Spaces: From Parameter Tuning to
Discovery
One of Wang's papers on Cognitive Informatics e.g. Theoretical
Framework of CI, CI Models of the Brain or similar

INTRODUCTORY, POPULAR & GENERAL BOOKS:
# Eric Baum, What is Thought?, 2004
# Ben Goertzel, The Hidden Pattern: A Patternist Philosophy of Mind,
2006
# Ben Goertzel, Cassio Pennachin (Eds.), Artificial General
Intelligence, 2007
# Jeff Hawkins, On Intelligence, 2004
# Steven Pinker, The Stuff of Thought, 2007; How the Mind Works; The
language Instinct.
# Storrs Hall, Beyond AI
# Franklin, Artificial Minds
# Sowa, Knowledge Representation
# Douglas Hofstadter, Godel, Escher & Bach
# Ray Kurzweil, The Age of Spritiual Machines & The Singularity Is
Near
# Wolfram, A new kind of science
# Smith, On the origin of objects
# Jeff Hawkins, on intelligence
and at least two of the following 'cognitive science compilations'
# Rosenthal (ed), The Nature of Mind
# Bechtel & Graham, a Companion to Cognitive Science
# Posner (ed), Foundationsof Congitive Science
# Wilson & Kehl, THe MIT Encyclopedia of Cognitive Sciences
Some other popular science titles that you might consider (some are
quite dated):
#Kevin Warwick, In the mind of the Machine
#Robert Winston, the human mind
#Philip Johnson-Laird - the computer and the mind
#Gardenfors -
conceptual spaces
#Rita carter - mapping the mind
#Rondey Brooks - Robot
#and you should read at least one book by Roger Penrose (and/or perhaps
Daniel Dennett.).

Some advice on literature/articles NOT to read i.e. TIME-CONSUMING
debates to avoid wasting your precious time on:
** PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES **
If you're defining your own AGI project, you have to choose (ideally
one) language.
IMHO
if you already have lots of experience and feel comfortable in a
particular language and it  *seems to you* that it is adequate, then
don't waste time debating other languages - *all*  languages have their
advantages and limitations. However, if you have to choose a new
language  (or don'

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI textbook

[Jean-paul Van Belle]

Hi Ben

Hereby my proposed additional topics / references for your wiki - aimed
at the more computer scienty/mathematically challenged (like me):
Sorry don't have the time to add directly to the wiki 

AGI ARCHITECTURES (EXPANDS on the COGNITIVE ARCHITECTURES section)
Questions about any Would-Be AGI System. Ben Goertzel - May 20, 2002
Artificial General Intelligence: A Gentle Introduction - Pei Wang
Architectures for intelligent systems by J. F. Sowa
Cognitive Architectures: Research Issues and Challenges by Langley,
Laird & Rogers.
Choosing and getting started with a cognitive architecture to test and
use human-machine interfaces by Frank RITTER. MMI-Interaktiv, #7, Jun04
"Artificial General Intelligence" PowerPoint presentation by ??
"Artificial General Intelligence" - Goertzel, Ben; Pennachin, Cassio
(Eds). Chapter by Peter Voss  Four Contemporary AGI Designs: a
Comparative Treatment Sep2006 Stan FRANKLIN, Ben GOERTZEL, Alexei
SAMSONOVICH, Pei WANG
Mixing Cognitive Science Concepts with Computer Science Algorithms and
Data Structures: An Integrative Approach to Strong AI. Moshe Looks & Ben
Goertzel
Computational ARchitectures for Intelligence and Motivation  Darryl N.
Davis The 17th IEEE International Symposium on Intelligent Control ,
ISIC’02, Canada, Oct 2002
Considerations Regarding Human-Level Artificial Intelligence - Nils J.
Nilsson - Jan 2002
A Survey of Artificial Cognitive Systems: Implications for the
Autonomous Development of Mental Capabilities in Computational Agents
David Vernon.

AGENTS
Search and select depending on the nature of your AGI architecture.

AUTONOMIC COMPUTING 
Any one of the IBM AC overview papers e.g.
Practical Autonomic Computing: Roadmap to Self Managing Technology A
White Paper Prepared for IBM
January 2006 

BOTS 
Read any document on AIML, check out on the Loebner prize and check the
source code of at least  one ChatterBot in your preferred programming
langague.

COGNITION
List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
Contemporary Approaches to Symbol Grounding - Moshe Looks
Interior Grounding, Reflection, and Self-Consciousness - Marvin Minsky
Intl Conf on Brain Mind &  Society, Japan 2005.
Solving the Symbol Grounding Problem: a Critical Review of Fifteen
Years of Research by  Mariarosaria Taddeo and Luciano Floridi
French, R. M. (2002). The Computational Modeling of Analogy -Making.
Trends in Cognitive  Sciences, 6(5), 200-205.

COMPLEXITY THEORY - any good overview

COMPUTATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
Feigenbaum - Grand Challenges for Computational Intelligence
Some paper on AIXI
Craenen & Eiben - Computational Intelligence 2002
Moshe Looks - Learning with Semantic Spaces: From Parameter Tuning to
Discovery
One of Wang's papers on Cognitive Informatics e.g. Theoretical
Framework of CI, CI Models of the Brain or similar

INTRODUCTORY, POPULAR & GENERAL BOOKS:
# Eric Baum, What is Thought?, 2004
# Ben Goertzel, The Hidden Pattern: A Patternist Philosophy of Mind,
2006
# Ben Goertzel, Cassio Pennachin (Eds.), Artificial General
Intelligence, 2007
# Jeff Hawkins, On Intelligence, 2004
# Steven Pinker, The Stuff of Thought, 2007; How the Mind Works; The
language Instinct.
# Storrs Hall, Beyond AI
# Franklin, Artificial Minds
# Sowa, Knowledge Representation
# Douglas Hofstadter, Godel, Escher & Bach
# Ray Kurzweil, The Age of Spritiual Machines & The Singularity Is
Near
# Wolfram, A new kind of science
# Smith, On the origin of objects
# Jeff Hawkins, on intelligence
and at least two of the following 'cognitive science compilations'
# Rosenthal (ed), The Nature of Mind
# Bechtel & Graham, a Companion to Cognitive Science
# Posner (ed), Foundationsof Congitive Science
# Wilson & Kehl, THe MIT Encyclopedia of Cognitive Sciences
Some other popular science titles that you might consider (some are
quite dated):
#Kevin Warwick, In the mind of the Machine
#Robert Winston, the human mind
#Philip Johnson-Laird - the computer and the mind
#Gardenfors -
conceptual spaces
#Rita carter - mapping the mind
#Rondey Brooks - Robot
#and you should read at least one book by Roger Penrose (and/or perhaps
Daniel Dennett.).

Some advice on literature/articles NOT to read i.e. TIME-CONSUMING
debates to avoid wasting your precious time on:
** PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES **
If you're defining your own AGI project, you have to choose (ideally
one) language. 
IMHO 
if you already have lots of experience and feel comfortable in a
particular language and it  *seems to you* that it is adequate, then
don't waste time debating other languages - *all*  languages have their
advantages and limitations. However, if you have to choose a new
language  (or don't mind changing) then:
if you need raw speed and current hardware is likely to be a
bottleneck, then:
= if your algorithms are fairly classic in nature, choose C#, C++ or
similar - ideally a dialect  that supports parallel hardware
architectures
= but if your algorithms are fairly esoteric and/or you have 'strange'
data structures, looks at  Lisp, SmallTalk or similar
if yo

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Jim Bromer]

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> Robert/Ben:. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to
> distinguish
> >> themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts
> from
> >> AI,
> >> one by one. For example:
> >>
> >> knowledge representation = world model.
> >> learning = world model creation
> >> reasoning = world model simulation
> >> goal = life goal (to indicate that we have the ambition of building
> >> something really alive)
> >> If we say something like "world model creation", it seems pretty
> obvious
> >> that we do not mean anything like just tweaking a few bits in some
> >> function.
> >
> > Yet, those terms are used for quite shallow things in many Good Old
> > Fashioned
> > robotics architectures ;-)
> >
>
> IMO there is one key & in fact crucial distinction between AI & AGI -
> which
> hinges on "adaptivity".
>
> An AI program has "special(ised) adaptivity" -can adapt its actions but
> only
> within a known domain
>
> An AGI has "general adaptivity"- can also adapt its actions to deal with
> unknown, unfamiliar domains.
>
>
> ---
>
The distinction in terms is not generally recognized.  Most AI programs do
not show a wide range of adaptivity of learning.  However, most of us who
are interested in the field believe that there will be more achievements in
the future.  The use of the term AGI in this group is meant to differentiate
the general adaptivity that you mentioned that would be required for general
artificial intelligence, but the term AI is an inclusive term that has
different meanings but does definitely include the future of AI research and
general AI.

The way you expressed 'general adaptivity' is interesting.  People only have
a constrained ability to learn, just as computers do, but obviously they can
learn in ways that computers cannot.  But there is ample evidence that AI
programming is improving.

So the issue is not just general adaptivity but the range of adaptivity, or
the ranges of different kinds of adaptivity.  The reason I am making this
point is because by exmaining the problem with a little more precision, or
at least differentiation, some of the more obscure issues may eventually be
revealed.

Jim Bromer

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

General vs. narrow AI (was: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook)

[Vladimir Nesov]

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  IMO there is one key & in fact crucial distinction between AI & AGI - which
>  hinges on "adaptivity".
>
>  An AI program has "special(ised) adaptivity" -can adapt its actions but only
>  within a known domain
>
>  An AGI has "general adaptivity"- can also adapt its actions to deal with
>  unknown, unfamiliar domains.
>

There is no "general adaptivity" - all learning algorithms are
constrained to efficient learning only in narrow domains. The problem
with narrow AI systems is that their performance either relies on
people manually designing learning algorithms which work fine on given
narrow domains, or requires insanely much data to learn things with
less biased algorithms. In first case each new problem requires a
human in the loop and months of thinking about the problem, in effect
human acquires information about the target domain using his
intelligence and then encodes this information in parameterized form,
so that it can then be tweaked a little to solve a "last mile problem"
of adapting to particular features of target domain that are hard to
encode manually or are different in each case. In second case
algorithm is terrible at learning in target domain, but when you have
a whole Internet of data it doesn't necessarily look like that,
considering that you don't have to tweak the algorithm to the problem.

Making a general AI learning requires understanding of a general AI
domain, and this general AI domain is not "more general" than some of
these narrow AIs. Probability is conserved, general AI is necessarily
restricted in learning ability. So, while an ability to represent an
arbitrary algorithm would be nice (which is not present in many
popular machine learning algorithms), it doesn't mean that system will
guess any algorithm given only partial data about it. It might need to
actually look at it. But it needs to be able to guess the kind of
information that people are good at guessing, and what is it exactly
that we learn, infer from incomplete description, as opposed to
memorizing when presented in whole, is the core of the problem.


Here's a paper that may give some intuition about this issue:

http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/publis/pdf/bengio-lecun-07.pdf
Yoshua Bengio, Yann LeCun. 2007. Scaling learning algorithms towards AI.

-- 
Vladimir Nesov
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Mike Tintner]

Robert/Ben:. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to 
distinguish
themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts from 
AI,

one by one. For example:

knowledge representation = world model.
learning = world model creation
reasoning = world model simulation
goal = life goal (to indicate that we have the ambition of building
something really alive)
If we say something like "world model creation", it seems pretty obvious
that we do not mean anything like just tweaking a few bits in some 
function.


Yet, those terms are used for quite shallow things in many Good Old 
Fashioned

robotics architectures ;-)



IMO there is one key & in fact crucial distinction between AI & AGI - which 
hinges on "adaptivity".


An AI program has "special(ised) adaptivity" -can adapt its actions but only 
within a known domain


An AGI has "general adaptivity"- can also adapt its actions to deal with 
unknown, unfamiliar domains. 



---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Robert Wensman]

Hmm.. well, but at least, using words related to robotics gives a flavour of
embodiment :-).

Anyhow, I still prefer sharing terminology with robotics, as opposed to
narrow AI. Narrow AI and AGI are perhaps closer, so the risk of confusion is
bigger.

/R


2008/3/29, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > 4. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to distinguish
> > themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts from
> AI,
> > one by one. For example:
> >
> > knowledge representation = world model.
> > learning = world model creation
> > reasoning = world model simulation
> > goal = life goal (to indicate that we have the ambition of building
> > something really alive)
> > If we say something like "world model creation", it seems pretty obvious
> > that we do not mean anything like just tweaking a few bits in some
> function.
>
> Yet, those terms are used for quite shallow things in many Good Old
> Fashioned
> robotics architectures ;-)
>
> ben
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

> 4. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to distinguish
> themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts from AI,
> one by one. For example:
>
> knowledge representation = world model.
> learning = world model creation
> reasoning = world model simulation
> goal = life goal (to indicate that we have the ambition of building
> something really alive)
> If we say something like "world model creation", it seems pretty obvious
> that we do not mean anything like just tweaking a few bits in some function.

Yet, those terms are used for quite shallow things in many Good Old Fashioned
robotics architectures ;-)

ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Lukasz Stafiniak]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Robert Wensman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A few things come to my mind:
>
> 1. To what extent is learning and reasoning a sub topic of cognitive
> architectures? Is learning and reasoning a plugin to a cognitive
> architecture, or is in fact the whole cognitive architecture about learning
> and reasoning.
>
If "cognitive architectures department of AGI research" is to be
usefully delineated, then these are not its subtopics. But neither
they are plug-ins. It is "in this chapter I introduce you to the
overall structure of the system. From other chapters you know that..."

> 2. I would like a special topic on AGI goal representation. More
> specifically, a topic that discusses how a goal specified by any human
> designer, can be related to the world model and actions that an AGI system
> creates? For example, how can the human specified goal, be related to a
> knowledge representation that is constantly developed by the AGI system?
>
Yes, more work needed on lifelong goal structures, Pollock's master
plans, integration with motivational system (which in the primitive
form is "spreading activation").

> 3. Why do AI/AGI researchers always talk about "knowledge representation".
> It gives such a strong bias towards static or useless knowledge bases. Why
> not talk more about "World modelling". Because of the more active meaning of
> the word "modelling" as opposed to "representation", it implies that things
> such as inference etc. need to be considered. Since the word "modelling" is
> also used to denote the process of creating a model, it also implies that we
> need mechanisms for learning. I really think we should consider if not
> "knowledge representation" is a concept straightly borrowed from dumb-narrow
> AI, or if it really is a key concept for AGI. Sure enough, there will always
> be knowledge representation, but the question is whether it is an
> important/relevant/sufficient/misleading concept for AGI.
>
Agreed. I think that "knowledge representation" label should not be
abandoned, but should be grown towards "how the system accomodates the
sophisticated semantics of natural language and/or its formative
domain" where "formative domain" can be "social environment",
"programmistic environment" etc.

> 4. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to distinguish
> themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts from AI,
> one by one. For example:
>
I neither agree nor disagree with your suggestion, I just thank for
clarifying your ideas here considerably :-)

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Robert Wensman]

A few things come to my mind:

1. To what extent is learning and reasoning a sub topic of cognitive
architectures? Is learning and reasoning a plugin to a cognitive
architecture, or is in fact the whole cognitive architecture about learning
and reasoning.

2. I would like a special topic on AGI goal representation. More
specifically, a topic that discusses how a goal specified by any human
designer, can be related to the world model and actions that an AGI system
creates? For example, how can the human specified goal, be related to a
knowledge representation that is constantly developed by the AGI system?

3. Why do AI/AGI researchers always talk about *"knowledge
representation".*It gives such a strong bias towards static or useless
knowledge bases. Why
not talk more about *"World modelling"*. Because of the more active meaning
of the word "modelling" as opposed to "representation", it implies that
things such as inference etc. need to be considered. Since the word
"modelling" is also used to denote the process of creating a model, it also
implies that we need mechanisms for learning. I really think we should
consider if not "knowledge representation" is a concept straightly borrowed
from dumb-narrow AI, or if it really is a key concept for AGI. Sure enough,
there will always be knowledge representation, but the question is whether
it is an important/relevant/sufficient/misleading concept for AGI.

4. In fact. I would suggest that AGI researchers start to distinguish
themselves from narrow AGI by replacing the over ambiguous concepts from AI,
one by one. For example:

knowledge representation = world model.
learning = world model creation
reasoning = world model simulation
goal = life goal (to indicate that we have the ambition of building
something really alive)

If we say something like "world model creation", it seems pretty obvious
that we do not mean anything like just tweaking a few bits in some function.

2. I am thinking of whether it would be a good idea with a topic like
"methods for quelling combinatorial explosions in AGI world model
processes". That topic could outline basic principles like meta-adaptation
and parallelisation of adaptation (meaning that the AGI system needs to
separate objects in reality that can be studied separatley). Like someone
mentioned, such principles might be overly simple to many already in the
field, and thereby not worth mentioning, but if we aim at writing documents
for beginners, we really need to get the basics right. Simple/basic
principles are still interesting, as long as they are not narrow. Maybe Ben
Goertzel could add some more difficoult material under such a topic also.

Hope any of these ideas could could be helpful. Thanks.

/R



2008/3/26, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> BTW I improved the hierarchical organization of the TOC a bit, to
> remove the impression that it's just a random grab-bag of topics...
>
>
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook
>
> ben
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Fwd: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

 BTW I improved the hierarchical organization of the TOC a bit, to
 remove the impression that it's just a random grab-bag of topics...


 http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook

 ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Fair enough, Richard...

Again I'll emphasize that the idea of the "Instead of an AGI Textbook"
is not to teach any particular theory or design for AGI, but rather to convey
background knowledge that is useful for folks who wish to come to grips
with contemporary AGI theories and designs

I have articulated my own "coherent body of thought" regarding AGI as well,
but I consider it to best be presented at the "research treatise" or "research
paper" rather than "textbook" level...

-- Ben G


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Richard Loosemore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>  A propos of the several branches of discussion about AGI textbooks on
>  this thread...
>
>  Knowing what I do about the structure and content of the book I am
>  writing, I cannot imagine it being merged as just a set of branch points
>  from other works, like the one growing from Ben's TOC.
>
>  What I am doing is a coherent body of thought in its own right, with a
>  radically different underlying philosophy, so it really needs to be a
>  standalone project.
>
>
>
>  Richard Loosemore
>
>
>
>  ---
>  agi
>  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>  Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>  Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Richard Loosemore]

A propos of the several branches of discussion about AGI textbooks on 
this thread...


Knowing what I do about the structure and content of the book I am 
writing, I cannot imagine it being merged as just a set of branch points 
from other works, like the one growing from Ben's TOC.


What I am doing is a coherent body of thought in its own right, with a 
radically different underlying philosophy, so it really needs to be a 
standalone project.




Richard Loosemore

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Kaj Sotala]

On 3/26/08, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.

Ben,

while we're on the topic, could you elaborate a bit on what kind of
prerequisite knowledge the books you've written/edited require? For
instance, I've been putting off reading Artificial General
Intelligence on the assumption that for the full benefit, it requires
a good understanding of narrow-AI/basic compsci concepts that I
haven't necessarily yet acquired (currently working my way through
Russel & Norvig in order to fix that). The Hidden Pattern sounds like
it would be heavier on the general cogsci/philosophy of mind
requirements, and the Probabilistic Logic Networks one probably needs
a heavy dose of maths (what kind of maths)? What about the
OpenCog/Novamente documentation you've mentioned maybe releasing this
year?

(Agiri.org seems to be down, by the way, so I can't access the "textbook page".)


-- 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/

Organizations worth your time:
http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[BillK]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote:
> Is there some kind of online software that lets a group of people
>  update a Mind Map diagram collaboratively, in the manner of a Wiki page?
>
>  This would seem critical if a Mind Map is to really be useful for the purpose
>  you suggest...
>


Here is a recent review of online mind mapping software:


Online mindmap tools - Updated!
By James Breeze in Mind Maps
Published: Saturday, 08 March 08


BillK

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Stephen Reed]

Ben,
I just created an account on the wiki and created my user page derived from my 
Wikipedia user page.  Image uploads on the wiki work the same way as on 
Wikipedia - Yay.
-Steve
 
Stephen L. Reed

Artificial Intelligence Researcher
http://texai.org/blog
http://texai.org
3008 Oak Crest Ave.
Austin, Texas, USA 78704
512.791.7860

- Original Message 
From: Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:46:24 PM
Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

 Hi all,

A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.

So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics

Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
of contents there.

So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
hyperlinks on the pages
I've created ;-)

For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
introductory note I put on the wiki page:




I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
AI.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
and inclination either.

So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
section.

However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.

While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.

Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
out in the wash.

Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
etc.

***


-- Ben


-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com







  

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Hi Stephen,

> Ben,
> Wikipedia has significant overlap with the topic list on the AGIRI Wiki.  I
> propose for discussion the notion that the AGIRI Wiki be content-compatible
> with Wikipedia along two dimensions:
>
> license - authors agree to the GNU Free Documentation License

I have no problem with that

> editorial standards - Wikipedia says that content should be sourced from one
> or more research papers or textbooks, not just from the personal knowledge
> of the author, or from some web page.

Well, I think it is appropriate that a wiki covering an in-development research
area should contain a mix of sourced and non-sourced contents, actually.

In many cases it's the non-sourced content that will be the most
valuable, because
it represents practical knowledge and experience of AGI researchers and
developers, which is too new or raw to have been put into the formal literature
yet.

>I concede in
> advance that most AGIRI Wiki authors will find Wikipedia editorial standards
> burdensome,

To me this is a pretty major point.

The challenge with an AGI wiki right now is to get people to contribute quality
content at all ... so I'm not psyched about, right now at the starting
stage, making
them jump through hoops in order to do so.

>but the benefit would be athat content from the AGIRI Wiki can
> be used to create new, or improve existing Wikipedia articles.

That would be the case so long as the license is in place, it doesn't require
everything to be sourced -- appropriate sourcing could always be
introduced at the time
of porting to Wikipedia.

As the author of a load of academic papers, I'm well aware of how
irritating and
time-consuming it is to properly reference sources.  If I have to do
that for text I place on
the AGIRI wiki, I'm not likely to contribute much to it, just like I
don't currently contribute
much to Wikipedia.  I just don't have the time

>And if we
> can agree that on the  easy-to-achieve license, content from Wikipedia, e.g.
> my article on Hierarchical control systems can easily be imported into the
> AGIRI Wiki.

I don't see a problem with the license.

> Wikipedia is important to AGI, not only as an online encyclopedia that
> facilitates almost universal access to AGI related topics, but as a target
> for AI researchers that want to structure the text into a vast knowledge
> base.  Somewhere down the road to self-improvement, an AGI will be reading
> Wikipedia.

Along with the rest of the Web ...  for sure ;-)

-- Ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Thanks Mark ... let's see how it evolves...

I think the problem is not finding a publisher, but rather, finding
the time to contribute and refine the content

Maybe in a year or two there will be enough good content there that
someone with appropriate time and inclination and skill can shape it
into a textbook

-- Ben

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> I have a publisher who would love to publish the result of the wiki as a
>  textbook if you are willing.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  To: 
>  Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:46 PM
>  Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook
>
>
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
>  > AGI.
>  >
>  > So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>  >
>  > 
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>  >
>  > Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
>  > of contents there.
>  >
>  > So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
>  > hyperlinks on the pages
>  > I've created ;-)
>  >
>  > For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
>  > introductory note I put on the wiki page:
>  >
>  >
>  > 
>  >
>  > I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
>  > textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
>  > AI.
>  >
>  > Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
>  > else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
>  > and inclination either.
>  >
>  > So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
>  > here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
>  > and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
>  > links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
>  > section.
>  >
>  > However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
>  > TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
>  > maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
>  >
>  > While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
>  > valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
>  > and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
>  > AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
>  > probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
>  >
>  > Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
>  > that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
>  > out in the wash.
>  >
>  > Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
>  > Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
>  > well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
>  > some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
>  > etc.
>  >
>  > ***
>  >
>  >
>  > -- Ben
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Ben Goertzel, PhD
>  > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
>  > Director of Research, SIAI
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>  > "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
>  > will surely become worms."
>  > -- Henry Miller
>  >
>
> > ---
>  > agi
>  > Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>  > RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>  > Modify Your Subscription:
>  > http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>  > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>  >
>
>
>  ---
>  agi
>  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>
> Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>
>
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Stephen Reed]

Ben,
Wikipedia has significant overlap with the topic list on the AGIRI Wiki.  I 
propose for discussion the notion that the AGIRI Wiki be content-compatible 
with Wikipedia along two dimensions:
license - authors agree to the GNU Free Documentation Licenseeditorial 
standards - Wikipedia says that content should be sourced from one or more 
research papers or textbooks, not just from the personal knowledge of the 
author, or from some web page.  I think that this principal should be followed 
to the degree possible.  We could, for example, quarantine non-sourced content 
into clearly marked sections of the containing article.  Typical non-sourced 
content would be some OpenCog API that is not yet published in a journal 
article, technical report, or text book.I concede in advance that most AGIRI 
Wiki authors will find Wikipedia editorial standards burdensome, but the 
benefit would be athat content from the AGIRI Wiki can be used to create new, 
or improve existing Wikipedia articles.  And if we can agree that on the  
easy-to-achieve license, content from Wikipedia, e.g. my article on 
Hierarchical control systems can easily be imported into the AGIRI
 Wiki.

Wikipedia is important to AGI, not only as an online encyclopedia that 
facilitates almost universal access to AGI related topics, but as a target for 
AI researchers that want to structure the text into a vast knowledge base.  
Somewhere down the road to self-improvement, an AGI will be reading Wikipedia.
 
Stephen L. Reed
-Steve

Artificial Intelligence Researcher
http://texai.org/blog
http://texai.org
3008 Oak Crest Ave.
Austin, Texas, USA 78704
512.791.7860

- Original Message 
From: Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:46:24 PM
Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

 Hi all,

A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.

So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics

Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
of contents there.

So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
hyperlinks on the pages
I've created ;-)

For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
introductory note I put on the wiki page:




I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
AI.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
and inclination either.

So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
section.

However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.

While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.

Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
out in the wash.

Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
etc.

***


-- Ben


-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com







  

Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_i

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Mark Waser]

Hi Ben,

   I have a publisher who would love to publish the result of the wiki as a 
textbook if you are willing.


   Mark

- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook



Hi all,

A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on 
AGI.


So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics

Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
of contents there.

So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
hyperlinks on the pages
I've created ;-)

For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
introductory note I put on the wiki page:




I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
AI.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
and inclination either.

So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
section.

However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.

While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.

Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
out in the wash.

Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
etc.

***


-- Ben


--
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;

Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com




---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Is there some kind of online software that lets a group of people
update a Mind Map
diagram collaboratively, in the manner of a Wiki page?

This would seem critical if a Mind Map is to really be useful for the purpose
you suggest...

-- Ben

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well ... I can take a shot at putting a diagram together.  Making Mind Maps
> is one way I learn any kind of material I want.
>
> If the topics in the list(s) are descriptive enough, I can take a shot at
> putting such a diagram together.
>  It'd be less work to correct it than to make one, right?
>
> Hey - whatever helps.  For me, it's a win-win.  It would help me, and it
> would help accomplish what you guys are trying to do.
>
> Let me know,
>  ~Aki
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This kind of diagram would certainly be meaningful, but, it would be a
> > lot of work to put together, even more so than a traditional TOC ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi Pei -
> > >
> > > What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> > > - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS,
> Novamente,
> > > and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
> > >  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves
> > >
> > > Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> > > approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading
> list
> > > and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated,
> dead).
> > >
> > > Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> > > differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> > > their own learning/study ?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > ~Aki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > It is a good start!
> > > >
> > > > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > > > I'm going to do. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > > > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > > > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > > > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> > > >
> > > > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > > > more psychology and philosophy.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > > > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> > > >
> > > > Pei
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to
> speed on
> > > AGI.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a
> table
> > > > >  of contents there.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > > > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > > > >  I've created ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > > > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad
> level
> > > > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for
> Narrow
> > > > >  AI.
> > > > >
> > > > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no
> one
> > > > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the
> time
> > > > >  and inclination either.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > > > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > > > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a
> few
> > > > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > > > >  section.
> > > > >
> > > > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > > > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page,
> or
> > > > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done
> it.
> > > > >
> > > > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > > > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI
> concepts
> > > > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some
> available
> > > > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > > > >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogene

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Well ... I can take a shot at putting a diagram together.  Making Mind Maps
is one way I learn any kind of material I want.

If the topics in the list(s) are descriptive enough, I can take a shot at
putting such a diagram together.
It'd be less work to correct it than to make one, right?

Hey - whatever helps.  For me, it's a win-win.  It would help me, and it
would help accomplish what you guys are trying to do.

Let me know,
~Aki

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This kind of diagram would certainly be meaningful, but, it would be a
> lot of work to put together, even more so than a traditional TOC ...
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Pei -
> >
> > What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> > - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS,
> Novamente,
> > and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
> >  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves
> >
> > Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> > approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading
> list
> > and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated,
> dead).
> >
> > Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> > differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> > their own learning/study ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > ~Aki
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > Ben,
> > >
> > > It is a good start!
> > >
> > > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > > I'm going to do. ;-)
> > >
> > > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> > >
> > > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > > more psychology and philosophy.
> > >
> > > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> > >
> > > Pei
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to
> speed on
> > AGI.
> > > >
> > > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > > >
> > > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a
> table
> > > >  of contents there.
> > > >
> > > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > > >  I've created ;-)
> > > >
> > > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad
> level
> > > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for
> Narrow
> > > >  AI.
> > > >
> > > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no
> one
> > > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the
> time
> > > >  and inclination either.
> > > >
> > > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a
> few
> > > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > > >  section.
> > > >
> > > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page,
> or
> > > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done
> it.
> > > >
> > > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI
> concepts
> > > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some
> available
> > > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > > >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> > > >
> > > >  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I
> trust
> > > >  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately
> "come
> > > >  out in the wash.
> > > >
> > > >  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI
> material.
> > > >  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would
> do
> > > >  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> > > >  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some
> mathematics,
> > > >  etc.
>

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

This kind of diagram would certainly be meaningful, but, it would be a
lot of work to put together, even more so than a traditional TOC ...

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Pei -
>
> What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS, Novamente,
> and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
>  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves
>
> Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading list
> and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated, dead).
>
> Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> their own learning/study ?
>
> Thanks,
> ~Aki
>
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ben,
> >
> > It is a good start!
> >
> > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > I'm going to do. ;-)
> >
> > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> >
> > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > more psychology and philosophy.
> >
> > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> >
> > Pei
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> AGI.
> > >
> > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > >
> > >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > >
> > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> > >  of contents there.
> > >
> > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > >  I've created ;-)
> > >
> > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> > >  AI.
> > >
> > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> > >  and inclination either.
> > >
> > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > >  section.
> > >
> > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
> > >
> > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> > >
> > >  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> > >  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> > >  out in the wash.
> > >
> > >  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> > >  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> > >  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> > >  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> > >  etc.
> > >
> > >  ***
> > >
> > >
> > >  -- Ben
> > >
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  Ben Goertzel, PhD
> > >  CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> > >  Director of Research, SIAI
> > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >  "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> > >  will surely become worms."
> > >  -- Henry Miller
> > >
> > >  ---
> > >  agi
> > >  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> > >  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> > >  Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> >
> >
> >
> > >  Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
> > >
> >
> > ---
> > agi
> > Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Ben.  That is really exciting stuff / news.  I'm loking forward to
> OpenCog.
>
> BTW - is OpenCog mainly in C++ (like Novamente) ?  Or is it translations (to
> Java, or other languages) of concepts so that others can code  and add to it
> more readily and quickly?

yes, the OpenCog core system is C++ , though there are some peripheral
code libraries (e.g. the RelEx natural language preprocessor) which are in
Java...

ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Sounds good Pei - thanks.  Multiple lists are definitely a great start - to
stress differences. And a companion master list to stress similarities would
also be helpful.

Everyone learns differently - and though a master list may seem
intimidating, it may better represent breadth - where several distinct lists
may better represent a cohesive structure(s).  Having both seems to make
sense.

~Aki

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Pei -
> >
> > What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> > - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS,
> Novamente,
> > and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
> >  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves
>
> Yes, that is what I like. I know Ben would rather stress the
> similarity of the approaches, and merge all the lists into one, but
> I'd rather keep the difference visible. One reason is otherwise the
> list will be too long for anyone to follow.
>
> > Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> > approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading
> list
> > and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated,
> dead).
> >
> > Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> > differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> > their own learning/study ?
>
> In principle, yes, but a diagram with many text in it tends to look
> confusing. After we get the lists, you can play with them to see what
> is the best way to show the information.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pei
>
> > Thanks,
> > ~Aki
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ben,
> > >
> > > It is a good start!
> > >
> > > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > > I'm going to do. ;-)
> > >
> > > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> > >
> > > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > > more psychology and philosophy.
> > >
> > > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> > >
> > > Pei
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to
> speed on
> > AGI.
> > > >
> > > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > > >
> > > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a
> table
> > > >  of contents there.
> > > >
> > > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > > >  I've created ;-)
> > > >
> > > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad
> level
> > > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for
> Narrow
> > > >  AI.
> > > >
> > > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no
> one
> > > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the
> time
> > > >  and inclination either.
> > > >
> > > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a
> few
> > > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > > >  section.
> > > >
> > > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page,
> or
> > > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done
> it.
> > > >
> > > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI
> concepts
> > > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some
> available
> > > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > > >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> > > >
> > > >  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I
> trust
> > > >  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately
> "come
> > > >  out in the wash.
> > > >
> > > >  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to 

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Pei Wang]

Agree.

Pei

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sounds good Pei - thanks.  Multiple lists are definitely a great start - to
> stress differences. And a companion master list to stress similarities would
> also be helpful.
>
> Everyone learns differently - and though a master list may seem
> intimidating, it may better represent breadth - where several distinct lists
> may better represent a cohesive structure(s).  Having both seems to make
> sense.
>
> ~Aki
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi Pei -
> > >
> > > What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> > > - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS,
> Novamente,
> > > and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
> > >  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves
> >
> > Yes, that is what I like. I know Ben would rather stress the
> > similarity of the approaches, and merge all the lists into one, but
> > I'd rather keep the difference visible. One reason is otherwise the
> > list will be too long for anyone to follow.
> >
> >
> > > Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> > > approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading
> list
> > > and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated,
> dead).
> > >
> > > Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> > > differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> > > their own learning/study ?
> >
> > In principle, yes, but a diagram with many text in it tends to look
> > confusing. After we get the lists, you can play with them to see what
> > is the best way to show the information.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Pei
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > ~Aki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > It is a good start!
> > > >
> > > > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > > > I'm going to do. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > > > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > > > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > > > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> > > >
> > > > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > > > more psychology and philosophy.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > > > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> > > >
> > > > Pei
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to
> speed on
> > > AGI.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > > > >
> > > > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a
> table
> > > > >  of contents there.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > > > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > > > >  I've created ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > > > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad
> level
> > > > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for
> Narrow
> > > > >  AI.
> > > > >
> > > > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no
> one
> > > > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the
> time
> > > > >  and inclination either.
> > > > >
> > > > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > > > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > > > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a
> few
> > > > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > > > >  section.
> > > > >
> > > > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > > > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page,
> or
> > > > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done
> it.
> > > > >
> > > > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > > > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI
> concepts
> > > > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some
> available
> > > > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography l

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Pei Wang]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Pei -
>
> What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
> - the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS, Novamente,
> and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
>  - area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves

Yes, that is what I like. I know Ben would rather stress the
similarity of the approaches, and merge all the lists into one, but
I'd rather keep the difference visible. One reason is otherwise the
list will be too long for anyone to follow.

> Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
> approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading list
> and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated, dead).
>
> Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
> differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
> their own learning/study ?

In principle, yes, but a diagram with many text in it tends to look
confusing. After we get the lists, you can play with them to see what
is the best way to show the information.

Thanks,

Pei

> Thanks,
> ~Aki
>
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ben,
> >
> > It is a good start!
> >
> > Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> > I'm going to do. ;-)
> >
> > I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> > will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> > it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> > (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
> >
> > Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> > more psychology and philosophy.
> >
> > I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> > try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
> >
> > Pei
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> AGI.
> > >
> > >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > >
> > >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > >
> > >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> > >  of contents there.
> > >
> > >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > >  hyperlinks on the pages
> > >  I've created ;-)
> > >
> > >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> > >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> > >  AI.
> > >
> > >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> > >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> > >  and inclination either.
> > >
> > >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> > >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > >  section.
> > >
> > >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> > >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
> > >
> > >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> > >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> > >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> > >
> > >  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> > >  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> > >  out in the wash.
> > >
> > >  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> > >  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> > >  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> > >  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> > >  etc.
> > >
> > >  ***
> > >
> > >
> > >  -- Ben
> > >
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  Ben Goertzel, PhD
> > >  CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> > >  Director of Research, SIAI
> > >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >  "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> > >  will surely become worms."
> > >  -- Henry Miller
> > >
> > >  ---
> > >  agi
> > >  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=no

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Thanks Ben.  That is really exciting stuff / news.  I'm loking forward to
OpenCog.

BTW - is OpenCog mainly in C++ (like Novamente) ?  Or is it translations (to
Java, or other languages) of concepts so that others can code  and add to it
more readily and quickly?

Thanks,
~Aki

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >  I actually recently purchased Artificial Intelligence: A Modern
> > Approach - but only because I did not know where else to start.
>
> It's a very good book ... if you view it as providing insight into various
> component technologies of potential use for AGI ... rather than as saying
> very much directly about AGI...
>
> >I have the
> > programming down - but, like most others, I don't know *what* to
> program.
>
> Well I hope to solve that problem in May -- via releasing the initial
> version
> of OpenCog, plus a load of wiki pages indicating stuff that, IMO, if
> implemented,
> tuned and tested would allow OpenCog to be turned into a powerful AGI
> system ;-)
>
> -- Ben
>
>
>
> Ben
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Aki R. Iskandar
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Hi Pei -

What about having a tree like diagram that branches out into either:
- the different paths / approaches to AGI (for instance: NARS, Novamente,
and Richard's, etc.), with suggested readings at those leaves
- area of study, with suggested readings at those leaves

Or possibly, a Mind Map diagram that shows AGI in the middle, with the
approaches stemming from it, and then either sub fields, or a reading list
and / or collection of links (though the links may become outdated, dead).

Point is, would a diagram help "map" the field - which caters to the
differing approaches, and which helps those wanting to chart a course to
their own learning/study ?

Thanks,
~Aki


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ben,
>
> It is a good start!
>
> Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
> I'm going to do. ;-)
>
> I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
> will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
> it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
> (http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).
>
> Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
> more psychology and philosophy.
>
> I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
> try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.
>
> Pei
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> >  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> AGI.
> >
> >  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> >
> >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> >
> >  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> >  of contents there.
> >
> >  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> >  hyperlinks on the pages
> >  I've created ;-)
> >
> >  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> >  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> >  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> >  AI.
> >
> >  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> >  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> >  and inclination either.
> >
> >  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> >  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> >  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> >  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> >  section.
> >
> >  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> >  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> >  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
> >
> >  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> >  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> >  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> >  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> >  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> >
> >  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> >  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> >  out in the wash.
> >
> >  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> >  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> >  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> >  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> >  etc.
> >
> >  ***
> >
> >
> >  -- Ben
> >
> >
> >  --
> >  Ben Goertzel, PhD
> >  CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> >  Director of Research, SIAI
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >  "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> >  will surely become worms."
> >  -- Henry Miller
> >
> >  ---
> >  agi
> >  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> >  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> >  Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> >  Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
> >
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Aki R. Iskandar
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Ok - that was silly of me.  After visiting the link (which was after I sent
the email), I noticed that is WAS a Wiki.

My apologies.

~Aki


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks Ben.  AGI is a daunting field to say the least.  Many scientific
> domains are involved in various degrees.  I am very happy to see  something
> like this, because knowing where to start is not so obvious for the
> beginner.  I actually recently purchased Artificial Intelligence: A Modern
> Approach - but only because I did not know where else to start.  I have the
> programming down - but, like most others, I don't know *what* to program.
>
> I really hope that others will contribute to your TOC.  In fact, I am
> willing to put up and host an "AGI Wiki" if theis community would find it of
> use.  I'd need a few weeks - because I don't have the time right now - but
> it is a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm happy to do it.
>
> ~Aki
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> > AGI.
> >
> > So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> >
> >
> > http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> >
> > Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> > of contents there.
> >
> > So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > hyperlinks on the pages
> > I've created ;-)
> >
> > For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> > textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> > AI.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> > else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> > and inclination either.
> >
> > So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> > links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > section.
> >
> > However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> > maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
> >
> > While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> > and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> > AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> >
> > Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> > that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> > out in the wash.
> >
> > Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> > Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> > well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> > some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> > etc.
> >
> > ***
> >
> >
> > -- Ben
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ben Goertzel, PhD
> > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> > Director of Research, SIAI
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> > will surely become worms."
> > -- Henry Miller
> >
> > ---
> > agi
> > Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> > RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> > Modify Your Subscription:
> > http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Aki R. Iskandar
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]




-- 
Aki R. Iskandar
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

>  I actually recently purchased Artificial Intelligence: A Modern
> Approach - but only because I did not know where else to start.

It's a very good book ... if you view it as providing insight into various
component technologies of potential use for AGI ... rather than as saying
very much directly about AGI...

>I have the
> programming down - but, like most others, I don't know *what* to program.

Well I hope to solve that problem in May -- via releasing the initial version
of OpenCog, plus a load of wiki pages indicating stuff that, IMO, if
implemented,
tuned and tested would allow OpenCog to be turned into a powerful AGI
system ;-)

-- Ben



Ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Yeah, the AGIRI wiki has been there for years ... the hard thing is
getting people
to contribute to it (and I myself rarely find the time...)

But if others don't chip in, I'll complete my little non-textbook
myself sometime w/in
the next month ...

-- Ben

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok - that was silly of me.  After visiting the link (which was after I sent
> the email), I noticed that is WAS a Wiki.
>
> My apologies.
>
> ~Aki
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Aki Iskandar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Ben.  AGI is a daunting field to say the least.  Many scientific
> domains are involved in various degrees.  I am very happy to see  something
> like this, because knowing where to start is not so obvious for the
> beginner.  I actually recently purchased Artificial Intelligence: A Modern
> Approach - but only because I did not know where else to start.  I have the
> programming down - but, like most others, I don't know *what* to program.
> >
> > I really hope that others will contribute to your TOC.  In fact, I am
> willing to put up and host an "AGI Wiki" if theis community would find it of
> use.  I'd need a few weeks - because I don't have the time right now - but
> it is a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm happy to do it.
> >
> > ~Aki
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> AGI.
> > >
> > > So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
> > >
> > >
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
> > >
> > > Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> > > of contents there.
> > >
> > > So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> > > hyperlinks on the pages
> > > I've created ;-)
> > >
> > > For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> > > introductory note I put on the wiki page:
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> > > textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> > > AI.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> > > else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> > > and inclination either.
> > >
> > > So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> > > here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> > > and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> > > links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> > > section.
> > >
> > > However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> > > TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> > > maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
> > >
> > > While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> > > valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> > > and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> > > AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> > > probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
> > >
> > > Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> > > that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> > > out in the wash.
> > >
> > > Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> > > Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> > > well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> > > some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Ben
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ben Goertzel, PhD
> > > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> > > Director of Research, SIAI
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> > > will surely become worms."
> > > -- Henry Miller
> > >
> > > ---
> > > agi
> > > Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> > > RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> > > Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Aki R. Iskandar
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> --
> Aki R. Iskandar
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>
>  agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription



-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.list

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Aki Iskandar]

Thanks Ben.  AGI is a daunting field to say the least.  Many scientific
domains are involved in various degrees.  I am very happy to see  something
like this, because knowing where to start is not so obvious for the
beginner.  I actually recently purchased Artificial Intelligence: A Modern
Approach - but only because I did not know where else to start.  I have the
programming down - but, like most others, I don't know *what* to program.

I really hope that others will contribute to your TOC.  In fact, I am
willing to put up and host an "AGI Wiki" if theis community would find it of
use.  I'd need a few weeks - because I don't have the time right now - but
it is a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm happy to do it.

~Aki



On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on
> AGI.
>
> So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>
>
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>
> Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
> of contents there.
>
> So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
> hyperlinks on the pages
> I've created ;-)
>
> For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
> introductory note I put on the wiki page:
>
>
> 
>
> I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
> textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
> AI.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
> else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
> and inclination either.
>
> So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
> here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
> and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
> links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
> section.
>
> However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
> TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
> maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
>
> While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
> valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
> and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
> AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
> probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
>
> Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
> that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
> out in the wash.
>
> Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
> Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
> well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
> some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
> etc.
>
> ***
>
>
> -- Ben
>
>
> --
> Ben Goertzel, PhD
> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> Director of Research, SIAI
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
> will surely become worms."
> -- Henry Miller
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> Modify Your Subscription:
> http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Aki R. Iskandar
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

>  I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
>  will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC.

That would be great -- however I may integrate your reading
list into my TOC ... as I really think there is value in a structured
and categorized reading list rather than just a list...

I know every researcher will have their own foci, but I'm going
to try to unify different researchers' suggestions into a single
TOC with a sensible organization, because I would like to cut
through the confusion faced by students starting out in this
field of research...

ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Pei Wang]

Ben,

It is a good start!

Of course everyone else will disagree --- like what Richard did and
I'm going to do. ;-)

I'll try to find the time to provide my list --- at this moment, it
will be more like a reading list than a textbook TOC. In the future,
it will be integrated into the E-book I'm working on
(http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/gti-summary).

Compared to yours, mine will contain less math and algorithms, but
more psychology and philosophy.

I'd like to see what Richard and others want to propose. We shouldn't
try to merge them into one wiki page, but several.

Pei


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.
>
>  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>
>  
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>
>  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
>  of contents there.
>
>  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
>  hyperlinks on the pages
>  I've created ;-)
>
>  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
>  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
>
>
>  
>
>  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
>  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
>  AI.
>
>  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
>  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
>  and inclination either.
>
>  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
>  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
>  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
>  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
>  section.
>
>  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
>  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
>  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
>
>  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
>  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
>  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
>  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
>  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
>
>  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
>  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
>  out in the wash.
>
>  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
>  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
>  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
>  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
>  etc.
>
>  ***
>
>
>  -- Ben
>
>
>  --
>  Ben Goertzel, PhD
>  CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
>  Director of Research, SIAI
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>  "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
>  will surely become worms."
>  -- Henry Miller
>
>  ---
>  agi
>  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>  Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>  Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>  >  Unfortunately I cannot bring myself to believe this will help anyone new
>  >  to the area.
>  >
>  >  The main reason is that this is only a miscellaneous list of topics,
>  >  with nothing to indicate a comprehensive theory or a unifying structure.

Actually it's not a haphazardly assembled miscellaneous list of topics
... it was
assembled with a purpose and structure in mind...

Specifically, I was thinking of OpenCog, and what it would be good for someone
to know in order to have a relatively full grasp of the OpenCog design.

As such, the topic list may contain stuff that is not relevant to your
AGI design,
and also may miss stuff that is critical to your AGI design...

But the "non textbook" is NOT intended as a presentation of OpenCog or any
other specific AGI theory or framework.  Rather, it is indeed,
largely, a grab bag
of relevant prerequisite information ... along with some information on specific
AGI approaches...

One problem I've found is that the traditional undergrad CS or AI education does
not actually give all the prerequisites for really grasping AGI
theories ... often
topics are touched in a particularly non-AGI-ish way ... for instance,
neural nets
are touched but complex dynamics in NN's are skipped ... Bayes nets are touched
but issues involving combining probability with more complex logic operations
are skipped ... neurons are discussed but theories of holistic brain function
are skipped ... etc.   The most AGI-relevant stuff always seems to get
skipped for
lack of time..!

ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Richard,

>  Unfortunately I cannot bring myself to believe this will help anyone new
>  to the area.
>
>  The main reason is that this is only a miscellaneous list of topics,
>  with nothing to indicate a comprehensive theory or a unifying structure.
>   I do not ask for a complete unified theory, of course, but something
>  more than just a collection of techniques is needed if this is to be a
>  "textbook".
>


I have my own comprehensive theory and unifying structure for AGI...

Pei has his...

You have yours...

Stan Franklin has his...

Etc.

These have been published with varying levels of detail in various
places ... I'll be publishing more of mine this year, in the PLN book, and
then in the OpenCog documentation and plans ... but many of the
conceptual aspects of my approach were already mentioned in
The Hidden Pattern

My goal in "Instead of an AGI Textbook" is **not** to present anyone's
unifying theory (not even my own) but rather to give pointers to
**what information a student should learn, in order to digest the various
unifying theories being proposed**.

To put it another way: Aside from a strong undergrad background in CS
and good programming skills, what would I like someone to know about
in order for them to work on Novamente or OpenCog or
some other vaguely similar AI project?

Not everything in my suggested TOC is actually used in Novamente or OpenCog...
but even the stuff that isn't, is interesting to know about if you're
going to work
on these things, just to have a general awareness of the various approaches
that have been taken to these problems...

>  A second reason for being skeptical is that there is virtually no
>  cognitive psychology in this list - just a smattering of odd topics.

Yes, that's a fair point -- that's a shortcoming of the draft TOC as I
posted it.

Please feel free to add some additional, relevant cog psych topics
to the page ;-)

-- Ben

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Richard Loosemore]

Ben Goertzel wrote:

Hi all,

A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.

So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics

Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
of contents there.


Ben,

Unfortunately I cannot bring myself to believe this will help anyone new 
to the area.


The main reason is that this is only a miscellaneous list of topics, 
with nothing to indicate a comprehensive theory or a unifying structure. 
 I do not ask for a complete unified theory, of course, but something 
more than just a collection of techniques is needed if this is to be a 
"textbook".


A second reason for being skeptical is that there is virtually no 
cognitive psychology in this list - just a smattering of odd topics.


As you know, I have argued elsewhere that keeping close to the design of 
the human mind is the *only* way to build an artificial general 
intelligence.  You completely disagree with this, and I respect your 
point of view, but given that there is at least one other AGI researcher 
(me) who believes that cognitive psychology is extremely significant, it 
seems bizarre that your list does not even include a comprehensive 
introduction to that field.  How could a new person who wanted to get 
into AGI make a judgment of the value of cognitive psychology if they 
had nothing but a superficial appreciation of it?


Finally, you said that "Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a 
textbook, and no one else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems 
to have the time and inclination either."


This is not correct:  I have been working on this for quite some time, 
and I believe I mentioned that on at least one occasion before (though 
apologies if me memory is at fault there).




Richard loosemore

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

Re: [agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Robin Gane-McCalla]

Thanks Ben, this is a major help to those interested in AGI but who
aren't yet "in the know", it's a bit hard to follow this listserv
because there is no central place to search for terms I don't
understand.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.
>
>  So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",
>
>  
> http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics
>
>  Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
>  of contents there.
>
>  So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
>  hyperlinks on the pages
>  I've created ;-)
>
>  For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
>  introductory note I put on the wiki page:
>
>
>  
>
>  I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
>  textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
>  AI.
>
>  Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
>  else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
>  and inclination either.
>
>  So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
>  here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
>  and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
>  links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
>  section.
>
>  However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
>  TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
>  maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.
>
>  While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
>  valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
>  and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
>  AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
>  probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.
>
>  Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
>  that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
>  out in the wash.
>
>  Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
>  Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
>  well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
>  some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
>  etc.
>
>  ***
>
>
>  -- Ben
>
>
>  --
>  Ben Goertzel, PhD
>  CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
>  Director of Research, SIAI
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>  "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
>  will surely become worms."
>  -- Henry Miller
>
>  ---
>  agi
>  Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>  RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>  Modify Your Subscription: http://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>  Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>



-- 
Robin Gane-McCalla
YIM: Robin_Ganemccalla
AIM: Robinganemccalla

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com

[agi] Instead of an AGI Textbook

[Ben Goertzel]

Hi all,

A lot of students email me asking me what to read to get up to speed on AGI.

So I started a wiki page called "Instead of an AGI Textbook",

http://www.agiri.org/wiki/Instead_of_an_AGI_Textbook#Computational_Linguistics

Unfortunately I did not yet find time to do much but outline a table
of contents there.

So I'm hoping some of you can chip in and fill in some relevant
hyperlinks on the pages
I've created ;-)

For those of you too lazy to click the above link, here is the
introductory note I put on the wiki page:




I've often lamented the fact that there is no advanced undergrad level
textbook for AGI, analogous to what Russell and Norvig is for Narrow
AI.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to write such a textbook, and no one
else with the requisite knowledge and ability seems to have the time
and inclination either.

So, instead of a textbook, I thought it would make sense to outline
here what the table of contents of such a textbook might look like,
and to fill in each section within each chapter in this TOC with a few
links to available online resources dealing with the topic of the
section.

However, all I found time to do today (March 25, 2008) is make the
TOC. Maybe later I will fill in the links on each section's page, or
maybe by the time I get around it some other folks will have done it.

While nowhere near as good as a textbook, I do think this can be a
valuable resource for those wanting to get up to speed on AGI concepts
and not knowing where to turn to get started. There are some available
AGI bibliographies, but a structured bibliography like this can
probably be more useful than an unstructured and heterogeneous one.

Naturally my initial TOC represents some of my own biases, but I trust
that by having others help edit it, these biases will ultimately "come
out in the wash.

Just to be clear: the idea here is not to present solely AGI material.
Rather the idea is to present material that I think students would do
well to know, if they want to work on AGI. This includes some AGI,
some narrow AI, some psychology, some neuroscience, some mathematics,
etc.

***


-- Ben


-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they
will surely become worms."
-- Henry Miller

---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
Modify Your Subscription: 
http://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=98558129-0bdb63
Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com