DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Initiating election for the Assessor and Herald

[VJ Rada]

FUCK WHY DID I INITIATE AN ELECTION FOR HERALD WHEN I MEANT TAILOR WE
JUST RE-ELECTED G. HERALD WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME!!!

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:50 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> You are not, by about 50 minutes.
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
>> I think I'm seeing messages come in with weird timestamps, but if I am
>> eligible to vote, I will endorse G. in both elections for the time being
>> just to make sure that quorum is satisfied.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 22:18 grok (caleb vines)  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2017 8:33 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>>
>>> I was gonna do these in two days after I resolved the election for
>>> Superintendent but if y'all want to go now, I'm down with it. I
>>> initiate the elections for Assessor and Herald, as the ADoP. I then
>>> initiate the Agoran Decisions for the determination of those offices,
>>> the valid options are the players, and the quorum? Well, the quorum is
>>> 8.0. Yup, 8.0. Good luck!
>>>
>>> --
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the election for Herald, I endorse G.
>>>
>>> In the election for Assessor, I endorse the player whose name matches the
>>> value of gFP's Name switch (currently "grok"), unless its value is set to
>>> "grok". If gFP's Name switch is set to "grok", I vote present.
>>>
>>> I pledge that, until the current elections for Herald and Assessor are
>>> assessed, I will not change the value of gFP's Name switch unless another
>>> player acts on my behalf to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>> -grok
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Initiating election for the Assessor and Herald

[VJ Rada]

You are not, by about 50 minutes.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
> I think I'm seeing messages come in with weird timestamps, but if I am
> eligible to vote, I will endorse G. in both elections for the time being
> just to make sure that quorum is satisfied.
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 22:18 grok (caleb vines)  wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2017 8:33 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>
>> I was gonna do these in two days after I resolved the election for
>> Superintendent but if y'all want to go now, I'm down with it. I
>> initiate the elections for Assessor and Herald, as the ADoP. I then
>> initiate the Agoran Decisions for the determination of those offices,
>> the valid options are the players, and the quorum? Well, the quorum is
>> 8.0. Yup, 8.0. Good luck!
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>>
>> In the election for Herald, I endorse G.
>>
>> In the election for Assessor, I endorse the player whose name matches the
>> value of gFP's Name switch (currently "grok"), unless its value is set to
>> "grok". If gFP's Name switch is set to "grok", I vote present.
>>
>> I pledge that, until the current elections for Herald and Assessor are
>> assessed, I will not change the value of gFP's Name switch unless another
>> player acts on my behalf to do so.
>>
>>
>> -grok



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[Alexis Hunt]

The Registrar's monthly report, which contains deregistration history,
appears to still identify Writs of FAGE, however, that information is
required to additionally appear in the weekly reports.
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 23:05 VJ Rada  wrote:

> Although I think the way he did it might have been invalid? E said "I
> list the following as performable by agency, which will automatically
> resolve in 24 hours" but I don't think it is automatic? E never
> resolved that intent.
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> > Use Gaelan's agency: It's performable by GII for Gaelan to give anyone
> > without a Package 20 shinies.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Aris Merchant
> >  wrote:
> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
> >>> I register.
> >>>
> >>> I Point a Finger at Publius Scribonius Scholasticus alleging that, as
> >>> Registrar, e has committed the Class-2 Crime of Tardiness by not
> reporting
> >>> last week on the players deregistered by Writ of Fage, as required by
> Rule
> >>> 1789.
> >>>
> >>> -Alexis
> >>
> >> I note that, if all the players currently registered and eligible for
> >> Welcome Packages claimed them, it would devastate the economy (again).
> >> I have no clue what to do about this short of giving them some money
> >> ourselves, but I don't have that much left.
> >>
> >> As far as I can tell, the last Registrar's report to contain the
> >> mentioned information was here [1].
> >>
> >> [1]
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2016-August/011218.html
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[VJ Rada]

Although I think the way he did it might have been invalid? E said "I
list the following as performable by agency, which will automatically
resolve in 24 hours" but I don't think it is automatic? E never
resolved that intent.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> Use Gaelan's agency: It's performable by GII for Gaelan to give anyone
> without a Package 20 shinies.
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
>>> I register.
>>>
>>> I Point a Finger at Publius Scribonius Scholasticus alleging that, as
>>> Registrar, e has committed the Class-2 Crime of Tardiness by not reporting
>>> last week on the players deregistered by Writ of Fage, as required by Rule
>>> 1789.
>>>
>>> -Alexis
>>
>> I note that, if all the players currently registered and eligible for
>> Welcome Packages claimed them, it would devastate the economy (again).
>> I have no clue what to do about this short of giving them some money
>> ourselves, but I don't have that much left.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the last Registrar's report to contain the
>> mentioned information was here [1].
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2016-August/011218.html
>>
>> -Aris
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[VJ Rada]

Use Gaelan's agency: It's performable by GII for Gaelan to give anyone
without a Package 20 shinies.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
>> I register.
>>
>> I Point a Finger at Publius Scribonius Scholasticus alleging that, as
>> Registrar, e has committed the Class-2 Crime of Tardiness by not reporting
>> last week on the players deregistered by Writ of Fage, as required by Rule
>> 1789.
>>
>> -Alexis
>
> I note that, if all the players currently registered and eligible for
> Welcome Packages claimed them, it would devastate the economy (again).
> I have no clue what to do about this short of giving them some money
> ourselves, but I don't have that much left.
>
> As far as I can tell, the last Registrar's report to contain the
> mentioned information was here [1].
>
> [1] 
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2016-August/011218.html
>
> -Aris



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[Aris Merchant]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
> I register.
>
> I Point a Finger at Publius Scribonius Scholasticus alleging that, as
> Registrar, e has committed the Class-2 Crime of Tardiness by not reporting
> last week on the players deregistered by Writ of Fage, as required by Rule
> 1789.
>
> -Alexis

I note that, if all the players currently registered and eligible for
Welcome Packages claimed them, it would devastate the economy (again).
I have no clue what to do about this short of giving them some money
ourselves, but I don't have that much left.

As far as I can tell, the last Registrar's report to contain the
mentioned information was here [1].

[1] 
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2016-August/011218.html

-Aris

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Slower Promotion

[grok (caleb vines)]

On Sep 26, 2017 9:42 PM, "Owen Jacobson"  wrote:

I hereby issue em a Pink Slip by summary judgement.



Pretty amusing implications given that there's an election going on.


-grok

DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 10:17 PM, Alexis Hunt  wrote:
> 
> I register.

Welcome back, your Excellency.


-o



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DIS: [Proto] Reposting

[Owen Jacobson]

In light of our newer players’ issues with the groups, and my own, it might be 
nice to allow players to repost obviously-misposted messages on others’ 
behalves. I recognize that this is a risk-laden idea, though, so I wanted to 
float it here first:

* Any player CAN repost a message to the public forum, on behalf of any person, 
if the message has not previously been reposted. A reposted message takes 
effect as if it had been sent to the public forum by its nominal author, not by 
the player reposting it.

* A repost is INEFFECTIVE unless the message is clearly identified as a repost, 
clearly identifies a single, specific author of the original message, and 
reproduces, in full and without modification, a publicly-available document 
[this is meant to mean “a-d emails, but not private emails]" or message that is 
being reposted.

* A repost is further INEFFECTIVE if the original author of the document would 
not reasonably become aware of the repost in a timely fashion.

* If the original author of a document objects, by public message, in a timely 
fashion, to a repost, the objection immediately ratifies game state such that 
the message was never sent.

I think this is a bit of a mousetrap hazard, so please, rip it apart. I’d love 
to be able to help ATMunn and other new players sort out minor posting issues, 
but I don’t want to create the world’s most open-ended Agency.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Initiating election for the Assessor and Herald

[grok (caleb vines)]

NttPF

On Sep 26, 2017 9:06 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:



I vote (myself, Publius) for Herald (would like to run Karma).

I vote (Publius, players who vote for themselves first in order of vote)
for Assessor.

-G.

DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Initiating election for the Assessor and Herald

[Kerim Aydin]

I vote (myself, Publius) for Herald (would like to run Karma).

I vote (Publius, players who vote for themselves first in order of vote) for 
Assessor.

-G.

DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 21:58 -0400, ATMunn . wrote:
> Actually, can't you just state that you change things in a proposal
> instead of retracting it and creating it again?

You can't. This is at least partly a consequence of a scam several
years ago in which someone got a dictatorship via editing a proposal
just before it passed; defining them to be unchangeable in /any/
circumstances was the simplest way to stop that sort of shenanigans.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[ATMunn .]

(Oops, forgot about the sending-to-discussion-by-default thing. It seems to
have still been sent to business though.)
Thanks for the feedback, by the way.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:43 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> I retract the proposal "Cheer Up" and create the following proposal in its
> place:
>
> Title: "Cheer Up"
> Author: ATMunn
> Co-Authors: none
> AI: 1
>
> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> {
> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
> currently not.
> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir
> Emotion as such.
> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
>
>- Indifferent: No effect.
>- Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any
>Melancholy player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is
>ENCOURAGED to change eir emotion to Joyous.
>- Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat
>Melancholy players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts,
>such as paying shinies to other players or pending other players' 
> proposals.
>
> }
>
> [Reason: As several people pointed out, there was some redundancy
> regarding punishments.]
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:34 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>
>> I create the following proposal:
>>
>> Title: "Cheer Up"
>> Author: ATMunn
>> Co-Authors: none
>> AI: 1
>>
>> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
>> {
>> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
>> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
>> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
>> currently not.
>> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir
>> Emotion as such.
>> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the
>> player.
>> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir
>> Emotion is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.
>> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
>>
>>- Indifferent: No effect.
>>- Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any
>>Melancholy player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is
>>ENCOURAGED to change eir emotion to Joyous.
>>- Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat
>>Melancholy players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind 
>> acts,
>>such as paying shinies to other players or pending other players' 
>> proposals.
>>
>> }
>>
>> [I thought I would do something sillier for my first proposal. I doubt
>> it'll pass, but it might. I'm still not entirely sure how the whole
>> figer-pointing thing and cards work, so I won't pend it just yet.]
>>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[ATMunn .]

I retract the proposal "Cheer Up" and create the following proposal in its
place:

Title: "Cheer Up"
Author: ATMunn
Co-Authors: none
AI: 1

Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
{
Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
currently not.
When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir
Emotion as such.
A player's Emotion has the following affects:

   - Indifferent: No effect.
   - Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any
   Melancholy player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is
   ENCOURAGED to change eir emotion to Joyous.
   - Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat Melancholy
   players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts, such as
   paying shinies to other players or pending other players' proposals.

}

[Reason: As several people pointed out, there was some redundancy regarding
punishments.]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:34 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> I create the following proposal:
>
> Title: "Cheer Up"
> Author: ATMunn
> Co-Authors: none
> AI: 1
>
> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> {
> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
> currently not.
> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir
> Emotion as such.
> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.
> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir
> Emotion is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.
> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
>
>- Indifferent: No effect.
>- Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any
>Melancholy player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is
>ENCOURAGED to change eir emotion to Joyous.
>- Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat
>Melancholy players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts,
>such as paying shinies to other players or pending other players' 
> proposals.
>
> }
>
> [I thought I would do something sillier for my first proposal. I doubt
> it'll pass, but it might. I'm still not entirely sure how the whole
> figer-pointing thing and cards work, so I won't pend it just yet.]
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I see. I forgot about that actually. Carry on.

天火狐

On Sep 26, 2017 21:15, "Owen Jacobson"  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:25 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> >
> > I haven't been credited with it, so I assumed it has failed, since my 1
> stamp is from August.
> >
> > 天火狐
>
> I have two records for this:
>
> 2017-08-23 ! 天火狐 created a stamp
> 2017-09-08 ! 天火狐 created a stamp
>
> However, you lost one to Gaelan’s stamp-destruction scam:
>
> 2017-09-07 ! Gaelan destroyed all Stamps
>
> (Note that this is after the first, but before the second).
>
> I can dig up the specific messages to verify this, if you’d like, but
> that’s what I’m basing my assertion on.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 9:34 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> I create the following proposal:

Some initial feedback: this is fantastic as a first proposal goes. You’ve 
nailed the mechanical elements, it looks like, and taken advantage of existing 
systems where appropriate. Furthermore, it’s a neat piece of theme. Nice work 
all around,

> Title: "Cheer Up"
> Author: ATMunn
> Co-Authors: none
> AI: 1
> 
> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> {
> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible 
> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is 
> currently not.
> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir Emotion 
> as such.
> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.

You can remove this clause entirely. The “e MUST provide a reason” is 
sufficient to trigger a card, and rules that specify which card tend to be 
prone to abuse. Furthermore, the platonic voice “can result in” is an unusual 
way to constrain the Referee, and I’m not sure it would work as required.

If you really want to recommend that breaches be punished only with a Green 
Card, then “The Referee SHOULD issue a Green Card for violations of this rule” 
or something to that effect might be a more effective way to encode it.

> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir Emotion 
> is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.

This is a subtle bug, for a first proposal, but: finger-pointing is for 
rule-breaking, and I can’t see any rule, including in this proposal, that makes 
providing an invalid reason for flipping an Emotion switch against the rules. 
You might need a MUST or SHALL NOT in here somewhere, at which point the 
direction to point fingers is superfluous as that’s what those terms imply 
anyways.

> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
> Indifferent: No effect.
> Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any Melancholy 
> player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is ENCOURAGED to 
> change eir emotion to Joyous.
> Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat Melancholy players 
> on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts, such as paying 
> shinies to other players or pending other players' proposals.
> }

This is super cute, and provides some neat prompts for interaction. Adding some 
length or structure SHOULDs might help, just as writing prompts, but I like the 
overall feel of this.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[ATMunn .]

You're probably right. I'll remove that.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:36 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> "
> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.
> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir
> Emotion is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em."
>
> Remove this, it's implied.
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:34 AM, ATMunn . 
> wrote:
> > I create the following proposal:
> >
> > Title: "Cheer Up"
> > Author: ATMunn
> > Co-Authors: none
> > AI: 1
> >
> > Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> > {
> > Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
> > values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> > At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
> > currently not.
> > When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir
> Emotion
> > as such.
> > Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the
> player.
> > If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir
> Emotion
> > is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.
> > A player's Emotion has the following affects:
> >
> > Indifferent: No effect.
> > Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any Melancholy
> > player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is ENCOURAGED
> to
> > change eir emotion to Joyous.
> > Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat Melancholy
> > players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts, such as
> > paying shinies to other players or pending other players' proposals.
> >
> > }
> >
> > [I thought I would do something sillier for my first proposal. I doubt
> it'll
> > pass, but it might. I'm still not entirely sure how the whole
> figer-pointing
> > thing and cards work, so I won't pend it just yet.]
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I don't mind this, except for the card SHOULD, which doesn't go with any 
potential rules violation.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 9:34 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> I create the following proposal:
> 
> Title: "Cheer Up"
> Author: ATMunn
> Co-Authors: none
> AI: 1
> 
> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> {
> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible 
> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is 
> currently not.
> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir Emotion 
> as such.
> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.
> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir Emotion 
> is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.
> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
>   • Indifferent: No effect.
>   • Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any 
> Melancholy player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is 
> ENCOURAGED to change eir emotion to Joyous.
>   • Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat Melancholy 
> players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts, such as 
> paying shinies to other players or pending other players' proposals.
> }
> 
> [I thought I would do something sillier for my first proposal. I doubt it'll 
> pass, but it might. I'm still not entirely sure how the whole figer-pointing 
> thing and cards work, so I won't pend it just yet.]



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DIS: Re: BUS: My first proposal!

[VJ Rada]

"
Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.
If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir
Emotion is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em."

Remove this, it's implied.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:34 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> I create the following proposal:
>
> Title: "Cheer Up"
> Author: ATMunn
> Co-Authors: none
> AI: 1
>
> Create a power-1 rule titled "Emotions"
> {
> Emotion is a player switch, tracked by the registrar, with possible
> values Joyous, Melancholy, and Indifferent, that defaults to Indifferent.
> At any time, any player CAN flip eir own Emotion to any value it is
> currently not.
> When doing this, e MUST provide a reason as to why e changed eir Emotion
> as such.
> Failing to do so can result in a Green Card being issued to the player.
> If a player thinks that another player's reason for changing eir Emotion
> is invalid, e SHOULD point eir finger at em.
> A player's Emotion has the following affects:
>
> Indifferent: No effect.
> Melancholy: Any player that is not Melancholy may pat any Melancholy
> player on the back. Upon doing this, the Melancholy player is ENCOURAGED to
> change eir emotion to Joyous.
> Joyous: Any player that is Joyous is ENCOURAGED to pat Melancholy
> players on the back. E is also ENCOURAGED to do other kind acts, such as
> paying shinies to other players or pending other players' proposals.
>
> }
>
> [I thought I would do something sillier for my first proposal. I doubt it'll
> pass, but it might. I'm still not entirely sure how the whole figer-pointing
> thing and cards work, so I won't pend it just yet.]



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Proto: Very Important Reportor Amendment

[VJ Rada]

Yeah I'm good to do this for my next ADoP weekly. And my
superintendent monthly, which I should get done today.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>>
>> Quick proto idea (doesn't even actually require a rule): have each
>> officer, when they submit a report, also privately send the Reportor a
>> short editorial about their relevant gamestate bits. The Reportor then
>> includes all of them in the Newspaper.
>
> The nice thing about this is that it’s easy to test without a proposal.
>
> -o
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Guaranteed Stampage

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> I submit the following proposal.
> 
> title: Guaranteed Stampage
> ai: 1
> author: nichdel
> co-authors:
> 
> Amend 2499 "Welcome Packages" to read in full:
> 
>If a player has not received one since e most recently became a
>player, any player CAN, by announcement, cause em to receive a
>Welcome package. When a player receives a Welcome Package:
> 
>   * Agora transfers em 1/10th the FV in shinies and

Can you make this a Floating Derived Value instead, so that it’s included in 
the Secretary’s report?

>   * a Stamp, with Agora as the Creater, is created in eir
> possession.
> 
> Amend R2498 to be titled "Stamps" and to read in full:
> 
>Stamps are an asset. The Secretary is the recordkeepor of Stamps.
> 
>Each Stamp has an associated Creater which SHOULD be noted whenever
>the Stamp is mentioned and MUST be noted whenever the Stamp is
>transfered. Stamps with the same creater are fungible.
> 
>Once per month a player CAN, by announcement, create a Stamp with
>themselves as the Creater by transferring the Stamp Value, in
>shinies, to Agora.
> 
>If Agora owns at least as many Shinies as the current Stamp Value, a
>player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to cause Agora to
>transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to emself.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Stamp Wins" with the following text:
> 
>If a player owns 10 stamps with different Creaters, none of which
>have Agora as its Creater, e CAN win by announcement. Doing so
>destroys the specified stamps.

If a player owns 10 stamps, each created by a different player, e CAN win by 
announcement. Doing so destroys the specified stamps.

Someone’s going to find a way for Organizations or Agoran Institutions to 
create stamps, and they’re far easier to create on demand than players are.

> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Basic Stamp Income" with the following
> text:
> 
>When the Secretary publishes the first Weekly Report of an Agoran
>Month, e CAN and SHALL, by announcement, create Stamps with Agora as
>the Creater and transfer them to any player who has no stamps and
>less than the Stamp Value in shinies at the time of publication.


-o



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Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[ATMunn .]

I paid Agora 17 shinies earlier today. You probably missed it.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Trigon  wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to contribute to the economic stabilization; however, being a
> shiniless scrub, I cannot. I extend thanks to everyone who is involved in
> this effort.
>
> As it happens, there are now enough Shinies in Agora’s account that you
> could, if you felt like it, claim a welcome package (rule 2499 describes
> how).
>
> As of this message, balances are as follows:
>
>  137 Shinies  Agora
>1 Shinies  Organization
>1 ShiniesASaAA
>  862 Shinies  Player
>   51 ShiniesATMunn
>   12 ShiniesAris
>   65 ShiniesCuddleBeam
>   30 ShiniesG.
>   46 ShiniesGaelan
>   50 ShiniesIenpw III
>   50 ShiniesK
>   50 ShiniesMurphy
>   94 ShiniesPublius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   50 ShiniesQuazie
>   61 ShiniesV.J Rada
>   50 Shiniesbayushi
>   49 Shiniesgrok
>   12 Shiniesnichdel
>   87 Shinieso
>   50 Shiniesomd
>   55 Shinies天火狐
>
> (This information is not a report and does not self-ratify, but it’s
> probably correct. It comes from the same place my reports do.)
>
> -o
>
>

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Trigon  wrote:
> 
> I'd love to contribute to the economic stabilization; however, being a 
> shiniless scrub, I cannot. I extend thanks to everyone who is involved in 
> this effort.

As it happens, there are now enough Shinies in Agora’s account that you could, 
if you felt like it, claim a welcome package (rule 2499 describes how).

As of this message, balances are as follows:

 137 Shinies  Agora
   1 Shinies  Organization
   1 ShiniesASaAA
 862 Shinies  Player
  51 ShiniesATMunn
  12 ShiniesAris
  65 ShiniesCuddleBeam
  30 ShiniesG.
  46 ShiniesGaelan
  50 ShiniesIenpw III
  50 ShiniesK
  50 ShiniesMurphy
  94 ShiniesPublius Scribonius Scholasticus
  50 ShiniesQuazie
  61 ShiniesV.J Rada
  50 Shiniesbayushi
  49 Shiniesgrok
  12 Shiniesnichdel
  87 Shinieso
  50 Shiniesomd
  55 Shinies天火狐

(This information is not a report and does not self-ratify, but it’s probably 
correct. It comes from the same place my reports do.)

-o



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Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Owen Jacobson]

Try this on a public forum.

However, the spirit of your generosity is very much appreciated.

-o

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:11 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> I currently have 51 shinies.
> I give Agora 17 shinies.
> 
> [I really have nothing better to do with them anyways, so I might as well 
> help out.]




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Re: DIS: Proto: Very Important Reportor Amendment

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I would be happy to do this, for the Registrar's report.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> Quick proto idea (doesn't even actually require a rule): have each
> officer, when they submit a report, also privately send the Reportor a
> short editorial about their relevant gamestate bits. The Reportor then
> includes all of them in the Newspaper.
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Assessment

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Would you mind if we made modifications?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 8:18 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> On 09/26/17 18:45, Gaelan Steele wrote:
>> Could you provide your assessment script for your successor’s use?
>> 
>> Gaelan
>> 
> 
> The kludge and example outputs are attached. Somewhere I have a nascent
> yaml version; if it ever gets done I'll post it.
> 



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Re: [Fwd: Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Clearing up the game state]

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> One of the goals with my banking system si using loans to help more people 
> get money to do things.

That was part of the reason for my general positivity about it, as well, but

a) I at least have clearly done a poor job communicating that goal, and

b) it’s possible that full-blown banking with investment vehicles is an 
overly-complex way to solve a much more immediate problem.

To be completely clear, I agree with G. in so far as our economy does not 
function if broke players are locked out, and the resulting liquidity problems 
are strangling the inputs as well. I’d love to solve this using something more 
complex than a straight basic income, but I’d love to _solve this_, first and 
foremost.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:25 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> I haven't been credited with it, so I assumed it has failed, since my 1 stamp 
> is from August.
> 
> 天火狐

I have two records for this:

2017-08-23 ! 天火狐 created a stamp
2017-09-08 ! 天火狐 created a stamp

However, you lost one to Gaelan’s stamp-destruction scam:

2017-09-07 ! Gaelan destroyed all Stamps

(Note that this is after the first, but before the second).

I can dig up the specific messages to verify this, if you’d like, but that’s 
what I’m basing my assertion on.

-o



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DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Slower Promotion

[Aris Merchant]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> I personally find it frustrating that we vote on things before the last
> setis resolved. This should be a relatively safe way to slow down, if we
> want to.
>
> Title: Slower Promotion
> AI: 3
> author: nichdel
> co-authors:
>
> Amend R1607 (Distribution) by replacing:
>
>   In a given Agoran week, the Promotor SHALL, as part of eir
>   weekly duties, distribute all pending proposals.
>
> with
>
>   In a given Agoran week, as part of eir weekly duties, the Promotor
>   SHALL:
>
>  * distribute all pending proposals if there are no unresolved
> Agoran decisions to adopt a proposal.
>
>  * list all unresolved Agoran decisions to adopt a proposal. The
>Promotor MAY still distribute all pending proposals.
>

No objections here. Ideally, it would be completely optional whether I
distributed, listed, or both (presuming that there was something to
list), but I certainly don't object to trying this out.

-Aris

DIS: Proto: Very Important Reportor Amendment

[Nic Evans]

Quick proto idea (doesn't even actually require a rule): have each
officer, when they submit a report, also privately send the Reportor a
short editorial about their relevant gamestate bits. The Reportor then
includes all of them in the Newspaper.




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Guaranteed Stampage

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 19:08 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> I was intending to propose a minimum value at least for stamps. Same
> idea different implementation.

It strikes me that it'd make a lot of sense for there to be a fixed
cost for Stamp creation, in addition to the FV-scaling cost, but that
Stamp cash-in continues to just give the FV-scaling reward. You could
probably safely reduce or remove the Stamp creation rate limit if you
did that (and the prices were set correctly), and it would mean that
when Agora is running low on money, Stamp sales would actually help to
fund it, and yet be more desirable because the price would still be as
low as it was ever going to go.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Assessment

[Nic Evans]

On 09/26/17 18:45, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> Could you provide your assessment script for your successor’s use? 
>
> Gaelan
>

The kludge and example outputs are attached. Somewhere I have a nascent
yaml version; if it ever gets done I'll post it.
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
Didn't capture vote N
|| 7876 | 7877 | 7878 | 7879 | 7880 | 7881 | 7882 | 7883 | 7884 | 7885 
| 7886 | 7887 | 7888 | 7889 | 7890 | 7891 | 7892 | 7893 | 7894 | 7895 | 7896 | 
7897 | 7898 |
|+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|Aris| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| A| F
| F| F| F| F| F| A| F| F| P| A| P| 
F| F|
|Bayushi | F| A| A| F| F| F| F| P| P| F
| F| P| F| F| F| P| P| P| F| A| P| 
F| F|
|CB  | F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F
| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| 
F| F|
|G.  | F| F| A| F| F| F| F| F| A| A
| F| F| F| A| F| F| A| A| A| A| A| 
F| F|
|grok| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A
| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| 
A| A|
|Josh T. | N| F| N| N| N| F| F| A| N| F
| F| F| F| F| N| N| N| N| N| N| A| 
N| N|
|K   | F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| A| F
| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| P| 
F| F|
|Nichdel | F| A| P| F| F| F| F| P| P| P
| P| F| F| F| F| A| F| A| A| A| P| 
F| P|
|o   | F| A| P| F| F| F| F| P| A| F
| F| A| F| P| F| A| F| A| A| A| P| 
F| F|
|PSS | F| A| F| F| F| F| F| F| A| F
| F| F| F| F| F| A| F| A| A| A| F| 
F| F|
|VJ Rada | FF   | AA   | AA   | FF   | FF   | FF   | FF   | FF   | P| FF   
| FF   | FF   | FF   | P| P| P| AA   | FF   | AA   | AA   | FF   | 
P| FF   |
|+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|F/A | 10/1 | 5/7  | 4/5  | 10/1 | 10/1 | 11/1 | 11/1 | 7/2  | 1/6  | 9/2  
| 10/1 | 9/2  | 11/1 | 7/2  | 8/1  | 3/5  | 6/4  | 5/5  | 3/7  | 2/9  | 4/3  | 
8/1  | 9/1  |
|AI  | 2.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 3.0  | 3.0  
| 2.0  | 3.0  | 3.1  | 3.0  | 2.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 2.0  | 2.0  | 3.0  | 3.0  | 
1.0  | 2.0  |
|V   | 10   | 11   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 11   | 11   | 11   | 10   | 11   
| 11   | 11   | 11   | 11   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 11   | 
10   | 10   |
|Q   | 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3
| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 
3| 3|
|P   | T| F| F| T| T| T| T| T| F| T
| T| T| T| T| T| F| T| F| F| F| F| 
T| T|

Final quorum: 3
q;3
p;7876;2.0
p;7877;1.0
p;7878;1.0
p;7879;1.0
p;7880;1.0
p;7881;1.0
p;7882;1.0
p;7883;1.0
p;7884;3.0
p;7885;3.0
p;7886;2.0
p;7887;3.0
p;7888;3.1
p;7889;3.0
p;7890;2.0
p;7891;1.0
p;7892;1.0
p;7893;2.0
p;7894;2.0
p;7895;3.0
p;7896;3.0
p;7897;1.0
p;7898;2.0
v;CB;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;
v;G.;F;F;A;F;F;F;F;F;A;A;F;F;F;A;F;F;A;A;A;A;A;F;F;
v;Aris;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;A;F;F;F;F;F;F;A;F;F;P;A;P;F;F;
v;VJ Rada;FF;AA;AA;FF;FF;FF;FF;FF;P;FF;FF;FF;FF;P;P;P;AA;FF;AA;AA;FF;P;FF;
v;K;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;A;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;F;P;F;F;
v;PSS;F;A;F;F;F;F;F;F;A;F;F;F;F;F;F;A;F;A;A;A;F;F;F;
v;Nichdel;F;A;P;F;F;F;F;P;P;P;P;F;F;F;F;A;F;A;A;A;P;F;P;
v;o;F;A;P;F;F;F;F;P;A;F;F;A;F;P;F;A;F;A;A;A;P;F;F;
v;grok;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;A;
v;Josh T.;N;F;N;N;N;F;F;A;N;F;F;F;F;F;N;N;N;N;N;N;A;N;N;
v;Bayushi;F;A;A;F;F;F;F;P;P;F;F;P;F;F;F;P;P;P;F;A;P;F;F;
#!/usr/bin/env python3

import re

# TODO: Read votes.py into arrays

class Voter:
   def __init__(self, name, votes):
 self.n = name
 self.v = votes

class Proposal:
   def __init__(self, name, ai):
  self.n = name
  self.ai = float(ai)
  self.q = 

DIS: Re: OFF: [Superintendent] Weekly Agency Report

[VJ Rada]

I forgot to say that I deputize for the office. I deputize for the
office, the below document is my report.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 9:23 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> Superintendent’s Weekly Report
>
> Short List of agencies:
>
> ASC - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> BÖÖ - Head: Quazie
> GII - Head: Gaelan
> GOD - Head: Quazie
> MKD - Head: Gaelan
> PRN - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> QAZ - Head: Quazie
> SSP - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> WTQ - Head: Quazie
> gFP - Head: grok
> gPA - Head: grok
> ⌑შए - Head: 天火狐
> 狐票店 - Head: 天火狐
> FPK - Head: V.J. Rada
> [SOMETHING THAT SHOULD EXIST HERE BUT I BELIEVE GOT SELF-RATIFIED AWAY
> BECAUSE OF THE SUPERINTENDENT'S REPORT OF THE 28TH WHICH, LIKE MANY
> REPORTS BEFORE IT, DID NOT INCLUDE THIS AGENCY, BUT THIS TIME NICHDEL
> FORGOT TO CoE IT]
> EOH - Head: nichdel
>
> A History of agency related events:
>
> 2017-09-21: Quazie revokes QAZ
> 2017-09-12: V.J. Rada establishes FPK
> 2017-08-26 - 天火狐 establishes 狐票店
> 2017-08-21 - Quazie establishes QAZ
> 2017-07-31 - Superintendent weekly and monthly reports published
> 2017-07-24 - Superintendent's weekly report published
> 2017-07-24 - grok establishes gPA
> 2017-07-21 - Cuddlebeam deregisters, revoking C♥️U and C♥️N
> 2017-07-03 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-06-05 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-06-05 - Quazie establishes BÖÖ
> 2017-06-04 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes ASC
> 2017-05-27 - Gaelan establishes GII
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️U
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️N
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes BGW
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes ACP
> 2017-05-25 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-05-24 - grok establishes gFP
> 2017-05-23 - 天火狐 establishes ⌑შए
> 2017-05-23 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes PRN
> 2017-05-22 - Quazie establishes WTQ
> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes ACP
> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes BGW
> 2017-05-20 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes SSP
> 2017-05-20 - Gaelan establishes MKD
> 2017-05-20 - Quazie establishes GOD
> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-04-23 - Aris revokes PDA
> 2017-04-16 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
> 2017-02-13 - Aris establishes PDA
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Guaranteed Stampage

[Nicholas Evans]

I was intending to propose a minimum value at least for stamps. Same idea
different implementation.

On Sep 26, 2017 7:00 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:



On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>If a player has not received one since e most recently became a
>player, any player CAN, by announcement, cause em to receive a
>Welcome package. When a player receives a Welcome Package:
>
>   * Agora transfers em 1/10th the FV in shinies and

I was going to say this could hurt a poor player coming in during a low FV,
but that made me realize that there's a deeper issue that could have a
simple fix.

Part of the issue, I think, is that when FV goes low, the whole pricing
structure pancakes due to rounding.  How about the following instead:

- The Base Value is 1/40 the FV, minimum 1.
- Proposals cost 2 x BV
- Stamps cost 8 x BV

etc.

This would preserve the relative structure regardless of FV, and for example
make sure a new player could always pend 2 proposals the week e comes in.
Stamps would still be relatively cheap investment at 1 BV but would actually
raise some funds for Agora when bought.

DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Guaranteed Stampage

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>    If a player has not received one since e most recently became a
>    player, any player CAN, by announcement, cause em to receive a
>    Welcome package. When a player receives a Welcome Package:
> 
>   * Agora transfers em 1/10th the FV in shinies and

I was going to say this could hurt a poor player coming in during a low FV,
but that made me realize that there's a deeper issue that could have a
simple fix.

Part of the issue, I think, is that when FV goes low, the whole pricing
structure pancakes due to rounding.  How about the following instead:

- The Base Value is 1/40 the FV, minimum 1.
- Proposals cost 2 x BV
- Stamps cost 8 x BV

etc.

This would preserve the relative structure regardless of FV, and for example
make sure a new player could always pend 2 proposals the week e comes in.
Stamps would still be relatively cheap investment at 1 BV but would actually
raise some funds for Agora when bought.

Re: DIS: Assessment

[Gaelan Steele]

Could you provide your assessment script for your successor’s use? 

Gaelan

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> I probably won't be able to keep up with assessment for a few months if
> it continues at this volume. The bottom line of my excuse being that I'm
> currently sitting on the floor with my desktop on a coffee table,
> frustrated that my email client is ignoring my retention settings, sad
> that I have yet to make my assessment script able to line wrap, and
> stressed about coordinating an upcoming move (another one) and change in
> the employment status/schedule of all three members of my household.
> 
> By the end of January this will all be 100% fixed. I actually enjoy
> being assessor, and have big hopes for improving my workflow once other
> stressors are gone. But if someone else thinks they can handle the job
> better in the meantime, I'll gladly hand it over.
> 

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[VJ Rada]

>
>AGAINST.  Fortunately it does nothing because voting strength can't be set at 
>AI-1
>(and "voting power" doesn't exist anyway).  But regardless, this mob-rule 
>censure
>is simply shameful, and it turns out its a good thing that Agora doesn't allow
>straight majority-rule on many things.

My name is VJ Rada and I approve this message.


On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> I vote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> 7905*  CuddleBeam1.0  Shiny Love   CuddleBeam  1 AP
> FOR
>
>> 7906*  Gaelan1.0  Happiness has a cost.Gaelan  1 AP
> AGAINST.  Fortunately it does nothing because voting strength can't be set at 
> AI-1
> (and "voting power" doesn't exist anyway).  But regardless, this mob-rule 
> censure
> is simply shameful, and it turns out its a good thing that Agora doesn't allow
> straight majority-rule on many things.
>
>> 7907*  CuddleBeam1.0  make Cuddlebeam happy.   CuddleBeam  1 AP
> FOR
>
>
>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: needle and thread wanted

[VJ Rada]

Anyone feel like a good old ELECTION? (jk, jk, maybe after somebody
deputizes for it)

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> I resign from the office of Tailor.
>
> Many apologies, I voted for myself in a bit of enthusiasm but, in trying to 
> catch
> it up over last day or so, I'm falling behind in Arbitor and Herald and it's 
> just
> one too many.
>
> Purposefully not doing a report so it can be deputized as of 1-Oct.
>
> -G.
>
>
>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Trigon]

I'd love to contribute to the economic stabilization; however, being a 
shiniless scrub, I cannot. I extend thanks to everyone who is involved 
in this effort.


On 9/25/2017 10:41 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:



On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:

* The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended with shinies 
is 1 sh.


Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it cost me
personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready to call 
the
entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork and
gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be happy with
a couple actions a week.


Economic reform goals:

1. Keep everything stable. I'd say we also need to keep things
interesting, but frankly everyone could use a bit of boringness right
now. This is impacting the workloads of several officers (meaning we
have to do our work in bursts) and is ruining stability and financial
planing. IMHO, this is is also the biggest flaw in at least two
proposals, Shiny Weather and Hot Potato, which would both actually
reduce stability in the markets.

2. Keep Agora solvent. Another major flaw in most financial proposals.
At least half of any wealth from taxes should go to Agora. Yes, that's
right, half. I know this is going to be unpopular, but wealth
redistribution will not actually create a good financial system unless
rule based rewards work. This is the upside of "print money" style
proposals, which people vote against primarily because they're
applying too much real world economics (not that people need to vote
for them, see the next sentence, but I think they vote against for the
wrong reasons). The disadvantage of that kind of proposal is that
they're short term fixes that don't solve the underlying problem. I'm
starting to think that a two tier tax might be best. A wealth
redistribution tax would be placed on the rich, while a public tax
would be levied on all but the poor.

3. Redistribute wealth. Yeah, this is third. No, that isn't a mistake.
Every self-respecting economic reform proposal does this, but it's
actually rather pointless without the other two. Until those happen,
shines aren't a stable form of value.

Temporary fix (mandatory charity): I have 48 shinies. I pay Agora 16
shines. All players, but especially o and P.S.S SHOULD give Agora 1/3
of their shinies, receiving nothing in exchange. I pledge to publish a
list of who has and has not done so. I also pledge that if I judge the
response of the community to be insufficient, I will submit and pend a
proposal levying a tax upon all players.

-Aris

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Nic Evans]

On 09/25/2017 11:55 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
I will issue everyone who does this a trust token (all at once, with 
my charity report) and will try to think of a more substantial token 
of gratitude. Thank you.


-Aris

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:53 PM VJ Rada > wrote:


I have like 62 I think? I give Agora 20 shinies.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Aris Merchant
> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Kerim Aydin
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>>> * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal
pended with shinies is 1 sh.
>>
>> Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I
suspect it cost me
>> personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm
ready to call the
>> entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating
guesswork and
>> gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and
be happy with
>> a couple actions a week.
>
> Economic reform goals:
>
> 1. Keep everything stable. I'd say we also need to keep things
> interesting, but frankly everyone could use a bit of boringness
right
> now. This is impacting the workloads of several officers (meaning we
> have to do our work in bursts) and is ruining stability and
financial
> planing. IMHO, this is is also the biggest flaw in at least two
> proposals, Shiny Weather and Hot Potato, which would both actually
> reduce stability in the markets.
>
> 2. Keep Agora solvent. Another major flaw in most financial
proposals.
> At least half of any wealth from taxes should go to Agora. Yes,
that's
> right, half. I know this is going to be unpopular, but wealth
> redistribution will not actually create a good financial system
unless
> rule based rewards work. This is the upside of "print money" style
> proposals, which people vote against primarily because they're
> applying too much real world economics (not that people need to vote
> for them, see the next sentence, but I think they vote against
for the
> wrong reasons). The disadvantage of that kind of proposal is that
> they're short term fixes that don't solve the underlying
problem. I'm
> starting to think that a two tier tax might be best. A wealth
> redistribution tax would be placed on the rich, while a public tax
> would be levied on all but the poor.
>
> 3. Redistribute wealth. Yeah, this is third. No, that isn't a
mistake.
> Every self-respecting economic reform proposal does this, but it's
> actually rather pointless without the other two. Until those happen,
> shines aren't a stable form of value.
>
> Temporary fix (mandatory charity): I have 48 shinies. I pay Agora 16
> shines. All players, but especially o and P.S.S SHOULD give
Agora 1/3
> of their shinies, receiving nothing in exchange. I pledge to
publish a
> list of who has and has not done so. I also pledge that if I
judge the
> response of the community to be insufficient, I will submit and
pend a
> proposal levying a tax upon all players.
>
> -Aris



--
From V.J. Rada

As the player with the lowest sh count, I'm abstaining from this if it's 
alright.

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[ATMunn .]

I currently have 51 shinies.
I give Agora 17 shinies.

[I really have nothing better to do with them anyways, so I might as well
help out.]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 6:54 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Per random.org, I give Agora 13 shinies.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:26 AM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
> >
> > I throw 23 shinies at Agora.
> >
> > Gaelan
> >
> >> On Sep 25, 2017, at 9:41 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
>  On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>  * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended
> with shinies is 1 sh.
> >>>
> >>> Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it
> cost me
> >>> personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready
> to call the
> >>> entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork
> and
> >>> gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be
> happy with
> >>> a couple actions a week.
> >>
> >> Economic reform goals:
> >>
> >> 1. Keep everything stable. I'd say we also need to keep things
> >> interesting, but frankly everyone could use a bit of boringness right
> >> now. This is impacting the workloads of several officers (meaning we
> >> have to do our work in bursts) and is ruining stability and financial
> >> planing. IMHO, this is is also the biggest flaw in at least two
> >> proposals, Shiny Weather and Hot Potato, which would both actually
> >> reduce stability in the markets.
> >>
> >> 2. Keep Agora solvent. Another major flaw in most financial proposals.
> >> At least half of any wealth from taxes should go to Agora. Yes, that's
> >> right, half. I know this is going to be unpopular, but wealth
> >> redistribution will not actually create a good financial system unless
> >> rule based rewards work. This is the upside of "print money" style
> >> proposals, which people vote against primarily because they're
> >> applying too much real world economics (not that people need to vote
> >> for them, see the next sentence, but I think they vote against for the
> >> wrong reasons). The disadvantage of that kind of proposal is that
> >> they're short term fixes that don't solve the underlying problem. I'm
> >> starting to think that a two tier tax might be best. A wealth
> >> redistribution tax would be placed on the rich, while a public tax
> >> would be levied on all but the poor.
> >>
> >> 3. Redistribute wealth. Yeah, this is third. No, that isn't a mistake.
> >> Every self-respecting economic reform proposal does this, but it's
> >> actually rather pointless without the other two. Until those happen,
> >> shines aren't a stable form of value.
> >>
> >> Temporary fix (mandatory charity): I have 48 shinies. I pay Agora 16
> >> shines. All players, but especially o and P.S.S SHOULD give Agora 1/3
> >> of their shinies, receiving nothing in exchange. I pledge to publish a
> >> list of who has and has not done so. I also pledge that if I judge the
> >> response of the community to be insufficient, I will submit and pend a
> >> proposal levying a tax upon all players.
> >>
> >> -Aris
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Slower Promotion

[Trigon]

Do four people or the ADoP want to support me so that an Assessor 
election can be started?


On 9/26/2017 3:13 PM, Nic Evans wrote:



On 09/26/17 16:02, Kerim Aydin wrote:



On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:

I personally find it frustrating that we vote on things before the last
setis resolved. This should be a relatively safe way to slow down, if we
want to.

Really, it overlapped wholly because you were late on Assessment, and your
response is to give the Promotor another task and slow the whole game down?

This is absurd.  Was going to let it pass, but I point the Finger at Nichdel
for late Assessment of Decision to Adopt proposal 7876.

I note, for the purposes of determining carding, that this lateness had a
direct and material impact on my own earnings as well as others.

I note to the Referee, so e can feel informed and NOT believe that there are
no rules violations this week, that Nichdel was similarly late on proposals
7877-7898.

Sorry - lateness happens, most is not a big deal, but this is a really poor
response to be frustrated at the voting system as a result.


Even if I'm not late this can and does still happen. Assessment is 7-14
days after promotion, and promotion is weekly. I'm not trying to punish
anyone else, I'm trying to make my own failure less catastrophic for
gamestate.

I resign from Assessor.



-G.

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Slower Promotion

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> On 09/26/17 16:23, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> > I *do* appreciate the work involved, definitely - but I think it's important
> > to consider where the frustration with the system comes from.  
> 
> I'm frequently frustrated with the ruleset not being up-to-date when
> trying to evaluate proposals. I often have multiple days a week where I
> can't devout time to Agora (not always the same days), so combined with
> an outdated ruleset I end up with little to no window to understand what
> proposals mean for the current gamestate.
> 
> I warned about being late and asked for other people to spot me on it.
> No one did. I made a proposal that would ease the effects of me being
> late for the job no one else is doing, and it got immediate directed
> backlash.

You're 100% right.  I'm sorry.  It was misplaced frustration at the economics
of the situation, but that's no excuse.

Re: BUS: Lime Ribbon Awarding and Unrelated Question (Was: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898)

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 16:39 -0400, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
wrote:
> I award a Lime Ribbon to each of Aris, V.J. Rada, ais523, K, Ørjan,
> and G., if each of them lacks it currently.

a) you need three coauthored proposals in 7 days for the Lime Ribbon
(so it's just V.J. Rada and me who get one unless there's another
distribution available); b) it's fairly unclear what that conditional
action expands to; does it only work if none of us currently have a
Lime Ribbon?

-- 
ais523

Re: BUS: Lime Ribbon Awarding and Unrelated Question (Was: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898)

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 15:46 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> On 09/26/17 15:41, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > Oh, I forgot my question:
> > 
> > I am soon planning to transition to Linux for most of my computing.
> > What is the best email program (CLI or otherwise) that I could use
> > for emailing for Agora?
> 
> Entirely up to preference. Thunderbird is what I use, though it's
> recently given me grief. I think that's just my settings.

I use Evolution. It has some utterly bizarre bugs sometimes (especially
in the message compose window, when dealing with quotes), but when it's
working it works very well, and it integrates with basically every sort
of mailserver I'm aware of.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Frivolous but harmless scam attempt of the week

[Nic Evans]

On 09/23/17 20:35, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> This is Cuddlebeam-esque and I'm ashamed of myself. But I
>> will now copy and paste "Without objection, I intend to win by
>> apathy", until there is thousands of  copies of that text, each of
>> which is a seperate action. Under the precedent of several CFJs,
>
> [snip]
>
> I object - to the horrible formatting.
>
> I am also just not quite tempted enough to register just to propose
> either/both:
>
> * outlawing quoting huge parts of messages when not specifically
> responding to those parts
> * nullifying actions buried after huge quotes or inside published
> documents

If we do either I think it should be the second.

>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.




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Re: BUS: Lime Ribbon Awarding and Unrelated Question (Was: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898)

[Nic Evans]

On 09/26/17 15:41, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> Oh, I forgot my question:
>
> I am soon planning to transition to Linux for most of my computing. What is 
> the best email program (CLI or otherwise) that I could use for emailing for 
> Agora?

Entirely up to preference. Thunderbird is what I use, though it's
recently given me grief. I think that's just my settings.

> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:39 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I award a Lime Ribbon to each of Aris, V.J. Rada, ais523, K, Ørjan, and G., 
>> if each of them lacks it currently.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 21:19 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
 On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 14:49 -0500, nichdel wrote:
> ID: 7881
> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
>
> ID: 7882
> Co-authors: K, ais523
>
> ID: 7886
> Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
 Could someone award me a Lime Ribbon, please? It's one of the very few
 I don't already have, and as a non-player I can qualify for Ribbons but
 a player has to actually make the award.
>>> And checking the whole list of co-authors:
>>>
>>> Co-authors: Aris
>>> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
>>> Co-authors: K, ais523
>>> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Ørjan
>>> Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
>>> Co-authors: V.J Rada
>>> Co-authors: G.
>>>
>>> it seems that V.J. Rada deserves one too. (Just realised that it was
>>> such a large distribution that it might be quite fruitful for Lime
>>> Ribbons; there were fewer than I expected, though.)
>>>
>>> --
>>> ais523




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Re: BUS: Lime Ribbon Awarding and Unrelated Question (Was: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Oh, I forgot my question:

I am soon planning to transition to Linux for most of my computing. What is the 
best email program (CLI or otherwise) that I could use for emailing for Agora?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:39 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> I award a Lime Ribbon to each of Aris, V.J. Rada, ais523, K, Ørjan, and G., 
> if each of them lacks it currently.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 21:19 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 14:49 -0500, nichdel wrote:
 ID: 7881
 Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
 
 ID: 7882
 Co-authors: K, ais523
 
 ID: 7886
 Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
>>> 
>>> Could someone award me a Lime Ribbon, please? It's one of the very few
>>> I don't already have, and as a non-player I can qualify for Ribbons but
>>> a player has to actually make the award.
>> 
>> And checking the whole list of co-authors:
>> 
>> Co-authors: Aris
>> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
>> Co-authors: K, ais523
>> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Ørjan
>> Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
>> Co-authors: V.J Rada
>> Co-authors: G.
>> 
>> it seems that V.J. Rada deserves one too. (Just realised that it was
>> such a large distribution that it might be quite fruitful for Lime
>> Ribbons; there were fewer than I expected, though.)
>> 
>> --
>> ais523
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898

[Nic Evans]

On 09/26/17 14:59, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, nichdel wrote:
>> |VJ Rada | F    | A    | A    | F    | F    | F    | F    | F    | P    |
> Does VJ Rada have 2 votes on everything for being prime minister?
>
>
>

Correct but luckily for me that doesn't change any results this time.



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Re: [Fwd: Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Clearing up the game state]

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

One of the goals with my banking system si using loans to help more people get 
money to do things.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
>> Here's a message that, as a consequence of my email troubles, never
>> successfully sent. Although the immediate context is no longer
>> applicable, the general principles still are, so I thought I'd resend
>> it now that my email is working a bit better than it was.
> 
> Still quite relevant and worth addressing!
> 
> Personally, my willingness to use the deregistration scam is political.
> 
> The issues with minimum income and fluctuating values were pointed out
> 2+ months ago and the designers of the economy were basically lukewarm
> on fixing it, to the point of saying no minimum incomes were necessary
> and things were just fine other than implementation bugs.  And the
> response of "fix it yourself" isn't very satisfactory, as others charge
> ahead with Banking and other very secondary elaboration before the basic
> game balance is addressed.
> 
> So now that the bug has been pointed out and anyone can use it, it
> becomes a political tool, not a scam.  Regardless of how it got there,
> there's a power in the rules that people seeking a minimum income can
> use as a bargaining chip.
> 
> And to be clear, it's not trying to game the current system (that is,
> use it to game my present position), it's a political question on what
> the "right" overall system is (i.e. what's the game balance), and if
> there's a genuine disagreement about design, it becomes a "political"
> discussion where different tools can be used to compromise (and if
> everything's reset to boot the new system and remove temporary scam
> advantages, that's fine).
> 
> -G.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



signature.asc
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Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 21:19 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 14:49 -0500, nichdel wrote:
> > ID: 7881
> > Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
> > 
> > ID: 7882
> > Co-authors: K, ais523
> > 
> > ID: 7886
> > Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
> 
> Could someone award me a Lime Ribbon, please? It's one of the very few
> I don't already have, and as a non-player I can qualify for Ribbons but
> a player has to actually make the award.

And checking the whole list of co-authors:

Co-authors: Aris
Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
Co-authors: K, ais523
Co-authors: V.J Rada, Ørjan
Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan
Co-authors: V.J Rada
Co-authors: G.

it seems that V.J. Rada deserves one too. (Just realised that it was
such a large distribution that it might be quite fruitful for Lime
Ribbons; there were fewer than I expected, though.)

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 14:49 -0500, nichdel wrote:
> ID: 7881
> Co-authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
> 
> ID: 7882
> Co-authors: K, ais523
>
> ID: 7886
> Co-authors: ais523, Ørjan

Could someone award me a Lime Ribbon, please? It's one of the very few
I don't already have, and as a non-player I can qualify for Ribbons but
a player has to actually make the award.

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, nichdel wrote:
> |VJ Rada | F    | A    | A    | F    | F    | F    | F    | F    | P    |

Does VJ Rada have 2 votes on everything for being prime minister?

DIS: Assessment

[Nic Evans]

I probably won't be able to keep up with assessment for a few months if
it continues at this volume. The bottom line of my excuse being that I'm
currently sitting on the floor with my desktop on a coffee table,
frustrated that my email client is ignoring my retention settings, sad
that I have yet to make my assessment script able to line wrap, and
stressed about coordinating an upcoming move (another one) and change in
the employment status/schedule of all three members of my household.

By the end of January this will all be 100% fixed. I actually enjoy
being assessor, and have big hopes for improving my workflow once other
stressors are gone. But if someone else thinks they can handle the job
better in the meantime, I'll gladly hand it over.



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Re: [Fwd: Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Clearing up the game state]

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> Here's a message that, as a consequence of my email troubles, never
> successfully sent. Although the immediate context is no longer
> applicable, the general principles still are, so I thought I'd resend
> it now that my email is working a bit better than it was.

Still quite relevant and worth addressing!

Personally, my willingness to use the deregistration scam is political.

The issues with minimum income and fluctuating values were pointed out
2+ months ago and the designers of the economy were basically lukewarm
on fixing it, to the point of saying no minimum incomes were necessary
and things were just fine other than implementation bugs.  And the
response of "fix it yourself" isn't very satisfactory, as others charge
ahead with Banking and other very secondary elaboration before the basic
game balance is addressed.

So now that the bug has been pointed out and anyone can use it, it 
becomes a political tool, not a scam.  Regardless of how it got there,
there's a power in the rules that people seeking a minimum income can
use as a bargaining chip.

And to be clear, it's not trying to game the current system (that is,
use it to game my present position), it's a political question on what 
the "right" overall system is (i.e. what's the game balance), and if
there's a genuine disagreement about design, it becomes a "political"
discussion where different tools can be used to compromise (and if
everything's reset to boot the new system and remove temporary scam
advantages, that's fine).

-G.

[Fwd: Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Clearing up the game state]

[Alex Smith]

Here's a message that, as a consequence of my email troubles, never
successfully sent. Although the immediate context is no longer
applicable, the general principles still are, so I thought I'd resend
it now that my email is working a bit better than it was.

 Forwarded Message 
From: Alex Smith 
To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
Subject: Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Clearing up the game state
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2017 20:15:43 +0100

> On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 07:52 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> > 
> > To use the bug, deregister, and re-register without using the words
> > "I register" or "I become a player", or other action verbs rather, 
> > re-register by passive language indicating "reasonably clearly and
> > reasonably unambiguously that e intends to become a player at that
> > time."
> > 
> > I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
> > player economic participation has been pointed out and so far inh
> > conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
> > great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
> 
> One of the big problems with a fledgling economy like this is that it's
> really disruptable by scams.
> 
> We always used to have something of a separation between scam-based and
> economic gameplay. At some points in time, if a player needed to
> impinge on the legitimate economy in order to pull off a scam, we put
> the economy back later via proposal or via action of the scamsters
> directly. At other points, we even enshrined ways of doing this into
> the rules; for a while we had a "skunk" rule (in which if a scam gained
> a win via damaging the economic gamestate, a "skunk" could be declared,
> which reverse the effects of the scam other than the win itself), and
> I'm a proponent of "scam release valves" which are rules that make it
> possible to convert scams into wins without damaging the gamestate. (We
> have one at the moment - Win by Apathy - and it actually did its job
> recently.)
> 
> In turn, this means that scamming an economic system before it's fully
> started up is just a mean and arbitrary thing to do. You don't actually
> get an advantage, because the assets that you scammed only have value
> insofar as people recognise the system as functioning; if you damage
> the economy to the point it doesn't work, it's just going to be fixed
> by proposal (or outright replacement of the economy), so you don't get
> a long-term advantage. This is why when I see scams in a new economic
> system, I typically hold onto them until I can use them for an
> immediate win (and in that case, the win typically doesn't hurt any
> player's economic standings other than typically my own).
> 
> Note that this post is mostly talking about scams in Agora's rules or
> the like. If someone makes a poorly-thought-out contract or agreement
> dealing with the economy and I take advantage of it, I consider that to
> be economic behaviour rather than a scam. (The notable difference here
> is that it hurts only the person who made the mistake, rather than
> everyone.)
> 
> Anyway, the best course of action is probably to run the economy as a
> "trial run" with no real rules effect, until we get it working. That's
> pretty much what AP does at the moment; it allows you to ignore the
> economy if you don't like it or if it isn't working. The problem is, it
> also allows you to participate in the economy and also participate in
> the game without spending Shinies, which is a problem.
> 
> Incidentally, if we want to keep our Shiny cap, I'd be in favour of a
> regular tax on Shiny holdings (to get them out of the hands of inactive
> players and, if it's a percentage tax, to help equalize the situation
> if a player becomes richer than others). We could use the extra income
> to give a basic income to players with lower Shiny holdings.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I haven't been credited with it, so I assumed it has failed, since my 1
stamp is from August.

天火狐

On 26 September 2017 at 10:14, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I purchase a stamp for 1 shiny.
>
> You last created a Stamp on Sept. 4th, which is within the same Agoran
> Month as this attempt. I _think_ this was ineffective:
>
> > Once per month, a player MAY [sic], by announcement, transfer to Agora
> the Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> ?
> Why did this get sent to discussion?
> I didn't intend that.

agora-business, agora-official, and agora-discussion all modify messages to set 
Reply-To to agora-discussion, causing the “reply” function of your mail client 
to send mail there by default rather than to the list the message was delivered 
through. This is intentional, though we haven’t had a thread about it for a 
while. The last discussion I’m aware of is this thread: 


The “TTttPF” and “NttPF” reply conventions (short for “this time to the public 
forum” and “not to the public forum” respectively) exist to address this common 
mistake. I don’t know that there is a better solution, as long as we have the 
a-b/a-d mailing list split, and - at least as of last year - I remain convinced 
that that split is a net win. It’s worth discussing periodically, though, and 
it might be worth some better documentation.

-o



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DIS: Re: BUS: Actions and Reportor Solicitations

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 9:46 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> I buy a stamp for 1 sh. by transferring that amount to Agora.

You also already created a Stamp this month.

-o




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DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> I purchase a stamp for 1 shiny.

You last created a Stamp on Sept. 4th, which is within the same Agoran Month as 
this attempt. I _think_ this was ineffective:

> Once per month, a player MAY [sic], by announcement, transfer to Agora the 
> Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[Gaelan Steele]

Replies to business and official messages have their To address set to 
discussion by default. You must change it if you want to send to BUS

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> ?
> Why did this get sent to discussion?
> I didn't intend that.
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:30 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>> I vote as G does as well.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>>> > 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
>>> > 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
>>> > 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
>>> > 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
>>> > 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
>>> > 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
>>> 
>>> I vote FOR all of these.  -G.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[ATMunn .]

?
Why did this get sent to discussion?
I didn't intend that.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:30 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> I vote as G does as well.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> > 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
>> > 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
>> > 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
>> > 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
>> > 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
>> > 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
>>
>> I vote FOR all of these.  -G.
>>
>>
>>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[ATMunn .]

I vote as G does as well.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
> > 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
> > 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
> > 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
> > 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
> > 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
>
> I vote FOR all of these.  -G.
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Various questions

[VJ Rada]

>> On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>
> A few more questions about offices:
>
> When do elections happen? Just whenever the ADoP feels like starting one?
>Whenever someone starts one with either support, vacancy, or the expiration of 
>90 days.

Or when the ADoP feels like it :). And it's 4 support, so it's hard to
get. But yeah I've abused my ADoP power a few times already to get
more equitable elections.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:30 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
 Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
 myself.
>
> G. actually won that election like two days ago :(
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>> On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
>> office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>>>
>>> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
>>> go for that.
>>> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
>>> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>>>
>>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself. (Or
>>> could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the deputisation
>>> thing)
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>  wrote:





 > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
 >
 >
 > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
 > judgement (r. 911, rare),

 This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
 up a few times since.

 > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),

 Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this

 > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
 > 2444, rare).

 And this...

 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Various questions

[VJ Rada]

>One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for
>>> myself.

G. actually won that election like two days ago :(

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
> office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>>
>> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
>> go for that.
>> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
>> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>>
>> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
>> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself. (Or
>> could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the deputisation
>> thing)
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
>>> > judgement (r. 911, rare),
>>>
>>> This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
>>> up a few times since.
>>>
>>> > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
>>>
>>> Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
>>>
>>> > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
>>> > 2444, rare).
>>>
>>> And this...
>>>
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Basically, with the current system, it's trading shinies around to see what 
happens.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 26, 2017, at 12:25 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>>> * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended with 
>>> shinies is 1 sh.
>> 
>> Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it cost me
>> personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready to 
>> call the
>> entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork and
>> gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be happy with
>> a couple actions a week.
> 
> 
> ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
> ---
> 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
> 7879*  o, Aris   1.0  You can take it with you o   1 sh.
> 7880*  o 1.0  Agency Typo Fix  o   1 sh.
> 7881*  o, [2]1.0  Stamp CAN Patch  o   1 sh.
> 7882*  o, K, ais523  1.0  Welcome Package CAN Patcho   1 sh.
> 7885*  o, [3]3.0  Restraining Bolt o   1 sh.
> 7888*  o, V.J Rada   3.1  BILLY MAYS HERE  o   1 sh.
> 
> I share your pain.
> 
> It’s something of a moot point for now. I expect to return a big chunk of my 
> Shinies to the pool sometime in the next two weeks, but until PSS and I let 
> go of our assets, Agora’s broke. Even if either of us were to be eligible for 
> a large payday due to FV fluctuations, I think it’d be impossible for us to 
> collect. It’s not gambling if it never pays out…
> 
> -o
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

The automatic place of response for all messages is a-d.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 25, 2017, at 12:46 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> 
> Oops, I don't know how that got sent here...
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:24 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
> I vote the same as PSS does.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:01 AM, Aris Merchant 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > [The Office of the Promotor frowns on having to do extra work for no good
> > reason. Expect much Malevolent Paper Shuffling.]
> >
> > I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
> > Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
> > pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
> > quorum is 2.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
> > also a valid vote).
> >
> >
> > ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
> > ---
> > 7905*  CuddleBeam1.0  Shiny Love   CuddleBeam  1 AP
> 
> If voting against would cause this not to pass, I vote AGAINST. Otherwise, I 
> vote FOR. If my vote would be AGAINST and it would be adopted, I vote against.
> 
> > 7906*  Gaelan1.0  Happiness has a cost.Gaelan  1 AP
> 
> I vote FOR.
> 
> > 7907*  CuddleBeam1.0  make Cuddlebeam happy.   CuddleBeam  1 AP
> 
> I vote FOR.
> 
> >
> >
> > Legend: * : Proposal is pending.
> >
> > In order to reduce confusion, the shiny pend price is being removed from 
> > this
> > report. A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating Value
> > in shines (see the Secretary's report).
> >
> > The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7905
> > Title: Shiny Love
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: CuddleBeam
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted AGAINST
> > this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10 of 
> > their
> > shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR this 
> > proposal
> > and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora transfer to them 
> > 10
> > Shinies.
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7906
> > Title: Happiness has a cost.
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: Gaelan
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Create a rule titled “Careful what you wish for”, power 1, text: "All 
> > players
> > designated as happy have their voting power reduced by one. When this joke 
> > has
> > run its course, any player CAN cause this rule to repeal itself With 2 
> > Support.”
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7907
> > Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: CuddleBeam
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
> >
> > //
> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pledge

[Kerim Aydin]

I realized you were trying to set quorum with the terrible proposal, but
what was the quorum bug itself?  I thought it was a side-effect of it
working as intended (a feature not a bug).

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> Thank you for your honesty.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:45 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2017-09-25 at 23:24 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Speaking of mysterious secrets: ais523, can you tell us why you
> >> submitted the repeal all rules proposal around the time of your
> >> junta?
> >> Sorry if I already asked and forgot about it.
> >
> > First of all, the actual text of the proposal was irrelevant, so I
> > decided to go for something amusing. (Because Agora is Agora, I first
> > triplechecked that it wouldn't do anything if it passed; there were a
> > number of intentional mistakes in it.)
> >
> > The original intention when I filed the proposal was to make it
> > possible to manipulate quorum with it as an emergency counterscam (you
> > couldn't force through a proposal if quorum was high enough). A
> > proposal like that tends to attract a lot of votes, and it would be the
> > next proposal to go through if things went badly wrong during the scam
> > itself. Of course, this wouldn't exactly be a bulletproof counterscam –
> > the votes on it could be retracted by the scamster – but having bribed
> > the Assessor, it seemed that having control over two important parts of
> > the gamestate (the timing of Assessing and the nature of the first
> > proposal to go through with the scam public) would help put me in the
> > best possible position minimize any potential damage. (I wasn't
> > planning to make it publicly known that quorum was relevant until
> > absolutely necessary, and was hoping any potential scamster would miss
> > this.)
> >
> > As it happens, the proposal was distributed much earlier than I'd
> > expected (the Terrible nature of the proposal, in addition to the fact
> > that I'd stated that it was important to the scam and the fact that the
> > Promotor had been stalling other obvious scam proposals at the time,
> > made me think it would be stalled, but it wasn't). So I adapted, and
> > used it as a vessel on which to do quorum manipulation; because it
> > would necessarily attract several votes, and I could retract them, it
> > let me accurately set quorum to any specific value I wanted, which was
> > particularly handy in making sure that the scam worked. Even better, it
> > let me disguise the reason why I was retracting the votes (I could make
> > it look like I was panicking about the proposal potentially actually
> > passing, rather than doing something with no apparent purpose,
> > increasing the chance that people realised that I was trying to set
> > quorum). This was likely a much better plan than my original one (which
> > was kind-of half-thought-out).
> >
> > Incidentally, the specific quorum bug exploited was an intentional bug
> > that I slipped into the quorum rule at the time when I wrote it. Agora
> > was going through a lull, and finding it very hard to make quorum (back
> > then it was based on the number of players, not on the number of voting
> > players), so it was easy to slip in a buggy quorum rule as we badly
> > needed one. This obeyed my standard Agoran practice for proposals
> > ("every proposal that isn't an obvious scam should improve the game;
> > it's just that it's allowed to contain a minor scam at the same time"),
> > incidentally, it's fairly rare that I slip a scam into a proposal over
> > here at Agora, because if I did it too often everybody would vote down
> > my proposals on principle (i.e. "what happened to me over at BlogNomic"
> > ). I decided that passing a proposal with very few votes is the sort of
> > thing that I'd be much more likely to do than anyone else, and so this
> > disproportionately benefitted me (although at the time, I was
> > originally planning to let quorum reduce "naturally" as hardly anyone
> > was playing; this method with retracting votes wouldn't have worked in
> > the ruleset at the time).
> >
> > --
> > ais523
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal ID fix

[VJ Rada]

"If there exists no proposal 7845, I intend without objection to
ratify the following statement: {{{ nichdel’s “Better Accounting”
Proposal was numbered 7875. }}}"

That's not the way to phrase it. You'll want to put the conditional in
the document, because currently if you ratify that document, it will
make it 7845 even if there is a 7845. You might also have committed
fraud here.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
> If there exists no proposal 7845, I intend without objection to ratify the 
> following statement: {{{ nichdel’s “Better Accounting” Proposal was numbered 
> 7875. }}}
>
> It was misnumbered, but I don’t remember if that was ever fixed. I’m throwing 
> this out there just in case; once the situation is cleared up, I’ll publish a 
> revised ruleset. I apologize it took me this long to get around to fixing 
> this, and will aim to have less of a life in the future. ;)
>
> Gaelan



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pledge

[Aris Merchant]

Thank you for your honesty.

-Aris

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:45 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-09-25 at 23:24 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> Speaking of mysterious secrets: ais523, can you tell us why you
>> submitted the repeal all rules proposal around the time of your
>> junta?
>> Sorry if I already asked and forgot about it.
>
> First of all, the actual text of the proposal was irrelevant, so I
> decided to go for something amusing. (Because Agora is Agora, I first
> triplechecked that it wouldn't do anything if it passed; there were a
> number of intentional mistakes in it.)
>
> The original intention when I filed the proposal was to make it
> possible to manipulate quorum with it as an emergency counterscam (you
> couldn't force through a proposal if quorum was high enough). A
> proposal like that tends to attract a lot of votes, and it would be the
> next proposal to go through if things went badly wrong during the scam
> itself. Of course, this wouldn't exactly be a bulletproof counterscam –
> the votes on it could be retracted by the scamster – but having bribed
> the Assessor, it seemed that having control over two important parts of
> the gamestate (the timing of Assessing and the nature of the first
> proposal to go through with the scam public) would help put me in the
> best possible position minimize any potential damage. (I wasn't
> planning to make it publicly known that quorum was relevant until
> absolutely necessary, and was hoping any potential scamster would miss
> this.)
>
> As it happens, the proposal was distributed much earlier than I'd
> expected (the Terrible nature of the proposal, in addition to the fact
> that I'd stated that it was important to the scam and the fact that the
> Promotor had been stalling other obvious scam proposals at the time,
> made me think it would be stalled, but it wasn't). So I adapted, and
> used it as a vessel on which to do quorum manipulation; because it
> would necessarily attract several votes, and I could retract them, it
> let me accurately set quorum to any specific value I wanted, which was
> particularly handy in making sure that the scam worked. Even better, it
> let me disguise the reason why I was retracting the votes (I could make
> it look like I was panicking about the proposal potentially actually
> passing, rather than doing something with no apparent purpose,
> increasing the chance that people realised that I was trying to set
> quorum). This was likely a much better plan than my original one (which
> was kind-of half-thought-out).
>
> Incidentally, the specific quorum bug exploited was an intentional bug
> that I slipped into the quorum rule at the time when I wrote it. Agora
> was going through a lull, and finding it very hard to make quorum (back
> then it was based on the number of players, not on the number of voting
> players), so it was easy to slip in a buggy quorum rule as we badly
> needed one. This obeyed my standard Agoran practice for proposals
> ("every proposal that isn't an obvious scam should improve the game;
> it's just that it's allowed to contain a minor scam at the same time"),
> incidentally, it's fairly rare that I slip a scam into a proposal over
> here at Agora, because if I did it too often everybody would vote down
> my proposals on principle (i.e. "what happened to me over at BlogNomic"
> ). I decided that passing a proposal with very few votes is the sort of
> thing that I'd be much more likely to do than anyone else, and so this
> disproportionately benefitted me (although at the time, I was
> originally planning to let quorum reduce "naturally" as hardly anyone
> was playing; this method with retracting votes wouldn't have worked in
> the ruleset at the time).
>
> --
> ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pledge

[Alex Smith]

On Mon, 2017-09-25 at 23:24 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> Speaking of mysterious secrets: ais523, can you tell us why you
> submitted the repeal all rules proposal around the time of your
> junta?
> Sorry if I already asked and forgot about it.

First of all, the actual text of the proposal was irrelevant, so I
decided to go for something amusing. (Because Agora is Agora, I first
triplechecked that it wouldn't do anything if it passed; there were a
number of intentional mistakes in it.)

The original intention when I filed the proposal was to make it
possible to manipulate quorum with it as an emergency counterscam (you
couldn't force through a proposal if quorum was high enough). A
proposal like that tends to attract a lot of votes, and it would be the
next proposal to go through if things went badly wrong during the scam
itself. Of course, this wouldn't exactly be a bulletproof counterscam –
the votes on it could be retracted by the scamster – but having bribed
the Assessor, it seemed that having control over two important parts of
the gamestate (the timing of Assessing and the nature of the first
proposal to go through with the scam public) would help put me in the
best possible position minimize any potential damage. (I wasn't
planning to make it publicly known that quorum was relevant until
absolutely necessary, and was hoping any potential scamster would miss
this.)

As it happens, the proposal was distributed much earlier than I'd
expected (the Terrible nature of the proposal, in addition to the fact
that I'd stated that it was important to the scam and the fact that the
Promotor had been stalling other obvious scam proposals at the time,
made me think it would be stalled, but it wasn't). So I adapted, and
used it as a vessel on which to do quorum manipulation; because it
would necessarily attract several votes, and I could retract them, it
let me accurately set quorum to any specific value I wanted, which was
particularly handy in making sure that the scam worked. Even better, it
let me disguise the reason why I was retracting the votes (I could make
it look like I was panicking about the proposal potentially actually
passing, rather than doing something with no apparent purpose,
increasing the chance that people realised that I was trying to set
quorum). This was likely a much better plan than my original one (which
was kind-of half-thought-out).

Incidentally, the specific quorum bug exploited was an intentional bug
that I slipped into the quorum rule at the time when I wrote it. Agora
was going through a lull, and finding it very hard to make quorum (back
then it was based on the number of players, not on the number of voting
players), so it was easy to slip in a buggy quorum rule as we badly
needed one. This obeyed my standard Agoran practice for proposals
("every proposal that isn't an obvious scam should improve the game;
it's just that it's allowed to contain a minor scam at the same time"),
incidentally, it's fairly rare that I slip a scam into a proposal over
here at Agora, because if I did it too often everybody would vote down
my proposals on principle (i.e. "what happened to me over at BlogNomic"
). I decided that passing a proposal with very few votes is the sort of
thing that I'd be much more likely to do than anyone else, and so this
disproportionately benefitted me (although at the time, I was
originally planning to let quorum reduce "naturally" as hardly anyone
was playing; this method with retracting votes wouldn't have worked in
the ruleset at the time).

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: pledge

[Aris Merchant]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:07 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> I pledge as follows:
>
> If a plaintext (ISO-8859-1) of the following SHA-512 hash is published,
> where the plaintext is 42 characters or less in length, then I will have
> performed as described in it:
>
> 766697bbcd12ee0d916bd2ee0edb5d351fef2bf6d32dd5d0bb002031fefbaca9
> a1bc1732ce2f9f00f1fc396015c859f8991a31b4c3938ab8a568acafc2f43ae8
>
> [This is written such that it cannot be considered broken unless its
> plaintext is published, which I assume would only happen if certain
> private parties are unsatisfied with my actions over the next week.
> Yes, I know of the upcoming proposal that would destroy this pledge
> - that should be enough time].
>
>
>

Speaking of mysterious secrets: ais523, can you tell us why you
submitted the repeal all rules proposal around the time of your junta?
Sorry if I already asked and forgot about it.

-Aris