Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
-> > I think Tcl (or, rather, "single language support") -> > is one of the big things holding AOLserver back. -> -> I thought the same thing two years ago. I'm now convinced Tcl was and is -> still the right choice for the core scripting language, and believe it -> should remain the core language. It simply wouldn't be AOLserver -> otherwise. For what it's worth, I won't argue ;). Tcl is a perfectly good language for configuration -- I don't see how Python, or Perl, or could do anything better -- and it's easy to learn. I just happen to think in Python . -> But you are correct in that we need to support other languages. That -> could be done with modules, and maybe some means of binding to internal -> Tcl data structures at the C level could be found so that, say, a java -> module can exchange data *directly* with Tcl internally -- maybe some -> kind of "standard" binary format for data interchange (Binary XML?). -> Maybe a capability that is similar to comm and db drivers -- a way to -> write "language drivers" that register themselves with the core server. -> That's definitely an area for exploration. PyWX allows you to do and access everything Tcl-ish from Python, and vice versa. I'm sure this is possible with PHP, too. Java will be difficult, unless GCJ is picked ;). Perl would be tricky, but a few years ago, when we were just starting to get serious about PyWX, someone mentioned that they'd started a Perl integration project for AOLserver. I'd be interested in taking a look at it as a possible winter break project, if it's still around. I haven't found that data exchange is a big issue: Mike Haggerty used SWIG to wrap the entire internal C API for Python, and the latest version of SWIG seems to output for Perl, Guile, Scheme, Ruby, Java (???), and PHP as well. This might be worth looking into, come to think of it... --titus P.S. Links: PyWX- http://pywx.idyll.org/ SWIG- http://www.swig.org/
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
In a message dated 11/7/2002 7:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I second the idea of organizing commands by function. I think the current documentation at aolserver.com does a good job of this: http://www.aolserver.com/docs/devel/tcl/api/ I hope we will still be able to have an overview document dividing commands up by function after the commands are converted to man pages. Jeff Sure - once we get the docs up to date, we can then look at the myriad of different ways by which one could categorize and display them. - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
In a message dated 11/8/2002 3:09:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perl would be tricky, but a few years ago, when we were just starting to get serious about PyWX, someone mentioned that they'd started a Perl integration project for AOLserver. I'd be interested in taking a look at it as a possible winter break project, if it's still around. If you were willing and able to sign up for this, I think that would be great! While historically a fair amount of work has been done to integrate AOLserver with Tcl, there's really nothing stopping you from making it work as well with other languages. If there are things which aren't encapsulated well, and make the integration of other languages difficult, then we should enumerate and look at addressing those items. While we will continue to improve AOLserver's integration with Tcl, I think there is definitely merit in providing compatibility with other languages as well. Tcl is a great scripting language, but not well suited for all tasks. One real world example I can think of is some index creation code which we recently moved from Tcl to Perl. Perl provided much higher throughput, and lower memory usage overall. I hope to continue to see people stepping up to support different languages: Tcl, Perl, Python, Java, PHP, etc. If there server is well designed, and things are abstracted correctly, then there would be no reason not to support as many languages as possible. I believe that a big part of AOLserver's success in the future will be based on the community's unbiased approach to its development - it is just a web server afterall! ;-) The thing that always amazes me are the different applications that people have built using the AOLserver. - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On 2002.11.07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think Tcl (or, rather, "single language support") is one of the big things > holding AOLserver back. It's nice that you're all convinced of your > godliness under Tcl ;), but other smart people like other languages, and > they're not going to switch to AOLserver if it means switching to Tcl, > however much you tell them they should. Less chauvinism on this front > would be much more welcoming, IMO; outright advertising could only help. I might be putting my foot in my mouth here, but I always saw AOLserver /not/ as a "general purpose webserver with Tcl as the only server-side scripting language choice". Matter of fact, I've never thought of AOLserver as a "general purpose webserver" -- for that, I'll use Apache. I see AOLserver filling a very specific niche. It's there for very high-end but dynamic websites that must scale well both in terms of traffic and hardware configuration, and be reliable as well. To that goal, having a stable and very lean AOLserver is highly desirable. Now, if adding other scripting language support could be done without adding any baggage to the core -- as external modules -- I'm all for it. However, I would hate to see the core get bogged down with stuff to accomdate all sorts of languages if it means negative impact towards its ability to fit the niche I just described. My personal self-interest comes from developing a site in Vignette's application server product (which, up to version V/6, uses Tcl as its core scripting language). The site across the two major applications I've developed does approx. 1.4M hits/350K page views a day. Not a hell of a lot, but it's a respectable amount and scaling it up will be important. As of Vignette V/7, it appears they're dropping Tcl support in the core. It's the moment I've always been waiting for. I'm ready to evangelize AOLserver full-time as a low-impact migration path from Vignette. If I can get AOLserver to "emulate" Vignette well enough, I can start going around to every Vignette customer and try and sell them an AOLserver replacement implementation. This could be /big/ money. And, it's the niche that AOLserver specifically fits well -- high end, dynamic websites. I don't understand why people are looking for "wider adoption of AOLserver" or "as much publicity as Apache" or whatnot ... while it's nice having a large community of users, some of which might contribute back to the open source project ... having a piece of software that enables the right folks to meet business goals ... that's incredibly valuable already. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/ "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
On Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 09:27 PM, Gabriel Ricard wrote:
- Note: my only gripe with ADP is that the following does not
appear
to work:
if { [check $something] == 1 } {
%>
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
conditionally
<%
}
What I usually do here is to register a tag that saves a fragment of the
page in a slot in an array, so I do stuff that looks like this:
blah blah blah
special blah
<%
if [check $something] {
adp_recall "conditional1"
}
%>
This has the benefit of being friendly to most of the WYSIWYG HTML editors
(life is too short to edit HTML with vi, emacs or Notepad), and the code
to implement the registered tag is simple, and even requires no locking.
At the moment, because of limitations in the ADP parser, I can't nest
"remembered" tags, so sometimes I've got some fairly convoluted logic, but
I've been able to do a lot with this.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
> I don't understand why people are looking for "wider adoption of > AOLserver" or "as much publicity as Apache" or whatnot ... while it's > nice having a large community of users, some of which might contribute > back to the open source project ... having a piece of software that > enables the right folks to meet business goals ... that's incredibly > valuable already. The more people using the software in my mind means the larger likelyhood that the software will remain developed.. so its purely selfish on my part.. put that together with the added advantage that with more people using it there is likely to be more people coding addons for it and I get very happy. -- Patrick Spence www.RandomRamblings.com www.Ariven.com
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
On 2002.11.08, Peter M. Jansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 09:27 PM, Gabriel Ricard wrote:
> >
> > if { [check $something] == 1 } {
> > %>
> > break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
> >conditionally
> > <%
> > }
> >
>
>
>special blah
>
><%
>if [check $something] {
>adp_recall "conditional1"
>}
>%>
This is how I implement this:
<%
if {[check $something] == 1} {
ns_adp_puts {
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
conditionally
}
}
%>
Personal preference, I guess.
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:42 AM, Dossy wrote: I don't understand why people are looking for "wider adoption of AOLserver" or "as much publicity as Apache" or whatnot ... while it's nice having a large community of users, some of which might contribute back to the open source project ... having a piece of software that enables the right folks to meet business goals ... that's incredibly valuable already. Because those of us who are already out there selling it find that in many places, they won't even consider running a web server that the CTO has never heard of. If it ain't written up in Business Week, or whatever the current magazine of choice is, it doesn't exist for them. The more widely adopted it is out there, the more big names we can point to who are already using it, the easier time we'll have. And no, AOL doesn't count - too many people have either had problems with their service or have lost money on their stock, and the name AOL is actually a turnoff to those folks (sorry). janine -- Janine Sisk President/CEO furfly.net, LLC Mont Vernon, NH Phone: 603-672-1122
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 09:35 AM, Dossy wrote:
This is how I implement this:
<%
if {[check $something] == 1} {
ns_adp_puts {
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
conditionally
}
}
%>
The only reason I do the other thing is that the method you're using is
really hostile to Dreamweaver, Mozilla Composer, or GoLive. I can edit my
HTML in my WYSIWYG editor, and some of the editors include facilities for
doing thing sitewide that are just as good as ns_adp_include, but don't
require a runtime execution ("Why Grandma, what a static page you have."
"The better to cache you with, my dear").
My personal preference is not to force HTML to be edited in a text editor,
where possible.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
Scott Goodwin wrote: > But you are correct in that we need to support other languages. That > could be done with modules, and maybe some means of binding to internal > Tcl data structures at the C level could be found so that, say, a java > module can exchange data *directly* with Tcl internally -- maybe some > kind of "standard" binary format for data interchange (Binary XML?). In nsjava, it's actually quite easy to share data between the tcl interpreter and the java virtual machine by wrapping c-api calls as native methods, so I don't really see this as problem. I think the biggest problem in integrating other languages comes with trying to match the target languages threading model with aolserver. For instance, a big hurdle in integrating java with aolserver was due to the way aolserver initiates startup. While starting, aolserver blocks signals. Java virtual machines use signals to control garbage collection, so for a jvm created in aolserver's main thread, a garbage collection cycle will cause aolserver to freeze. This is because the garbage collector thread suspends at the end of its cycle, and it doesn't wake up because it can't catch the wakeup signal that is blocked by aolserver. The work-around for this is to spawn a new -jvm- thread for creating the jvm and switch back to the main thread once the jvm is initialized. This allows the jvm to be created, but problems still persist during sourcing of the tcl libraries. Since the jvm can't be attached to in the main thread, I had to build a proxy command interface just for the main thread, so that java commands could be dispatched to the -jvm- thread and the results returned to the main thread. This is kind of messy, and it gets worse. Java commands dispatched to the -jvm- thread can't access a tcl interpreter, since aolserver blocks new interpreter allocation until the main startup thread has completed. This makes it impossible to access the db api from java during the startup process. Once aolserver is up and running, the interface to tcl and aolserver and tcl is quite clean, and it works well in the context of connection threads and scheduled procs. I suspect that this particular problem is probably unique for java integration, but I also suspect that each language integration is going to face its own particular hurdles. Don't take this as a criticism of aolserver. Overall it's an impressive piece of software, with clean interfaces and a simplicity of form that you rarely see in such a large application. Dan
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On 2002.11.08, Janine Sisk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Because those of us who are already out there selling it find that in > many places, they won't even consider running a web server that the CTO > has never heard of. If it ain't written up in Business Week, or > whatever the current magazine of choice is, it doesn't exist for them. While there are folks talented at selling ice to eskimos, my normal sales pitch is "AOLserver is not for you." I definitely sell AOLserver to my customers as a "very specific, high-end solution that is not for everyone." It makes them curious about it, makes them feel somewhat better about not using it, but also makes them realize how piddly their little app. is when I explain how "your app. is so small, running it on any platform of your choice will be suitable, so choose what your trade rags say is hot today." > The more widely adopted it is out there, the more big names we can > point to who are already using it, the easier time we'll have. If I can get AOLserver adopted throughout the organization here, it'll make for a great case study. I've already got an instance outside our firewall, and I hope to move a few of our intranet applications inside the firewall to AOLserver if I can get buy-in from management. AOLserver is not for everyone and everything, but for what it's good for, it's in a very small class of choices. That makes it easier to sell. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/ "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
On 2002.11.08, Peter M. Jansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The only reason I do the other thing is that the method you're using is
> really hostile to Dreamweaver, Mozilla Composer, or GoLive. I can edit my
> HTML in my WYSIWYG editor, and some of the editors include facilities for
> doing thing sitewide that are just as good as ns_adp_include, but don't
> require a runtime execution ("Why Grandma, what a static page you have."
> "The better to cache you with, my dear").
>
> My personal preference is not to force HTML to be edited in a text editor,
> where possible.
All good points. In the end, if the performance difference is
negligible, then again I say it's a matter of personal preference. The
way we work here is the designers build the display templates using
Dreamweaver then we take it and mark it up with code to make the
display templates "do stuff" ... we don't round-trip the stuff, so it
works out just fine this way.
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
[AOLSERVER] HTTP 1.1 Pipelining.
Hi Folks, I have a question regarding the latest 3.5.0 release of AolServer. Does this version support HTTP 1.1, and more specifically HTTP 1.1 pipelining? If not, is this planned for the version 4? Cheers, Pete. -- Peter Harper [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 10:06 AM, Dossy wrote: While there are folks talented at selling ice to eskimos, my normal sales pitch is "AOLserver is not for you." Heh - interesting approach! Unfortunately, it doesn't work for us since the majority of our sites are OpenACS-based and it requires AOLserver. So we can't offer them any other choices. If I can get AOLserver adopted throughout the organization here, it'll make for a great case study. Excellent - go for it! :) janine -- Janine Sisk President/CEO furfly.net, LLC Mont Vernon, NH Phone: 603-672-1122
Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
Creating a TCL-accessible array in a C module is trival. Just pass
the name of the TCL array variable to the C module, then in the C
code, do:
if (Tcl_SetVar2(interp, arrayname, subscript, val, TCL_LEAVE_ERR_MSG) == NULL) {
return TCL_ERROR;
}
Args 2-4 are just simple strings. The array name you pass to C can be
an ns_share, a local, a global, etc. We had a small TCL routine that
scanned a large text file and set an ns_share array. It was taking
several minutes to run. With C, it ran 10x faster.
You use Tcl_GetVar to read simple TCL vars in C, or Tcl_GetVar2 to
read TCL array vars in C. Again, these can be local, global, or
ns_shares. Yet another reason why nsv's aren't the greatest thing
since sliced bread. ;)
Jim
> If you create a huge ns_set (say, in some custom C code), it can be
> MUCH faster to immediately convert it to a Tcl array or AOLserver nsv
> before further processing in your Tcl code, rather than using the
> ns_set directly - if you do lots of key lookups, it definitely will
> be. I know, I tested it. (And in fact, I left it that way, as I
> never did sit down and figure out how to create and populate a Tcl
> array in C and then hand it to Tcl.)
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
Title: RE: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
I don't really want stir up dust on this one, not too much, because it hasn't been a real hinderance for me, but the solution presented still would allow something like:
set username [ns_conn authuser]
if { [check $something] == 1 } {
%>
Hello, <%= $username%>
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML conditionally
<%
}
Or what's better an iteration of somekind say placing fields into a table.
<%
for {k j z} $listOstuff {
%>
<%= $k %><%= $j %><%= $z %>
<%
}
%>
To me it would just making this kind of template stuff easier if you could break up the TCL as such.
My two-pennies.
Gene
This is how I implement this:
<%
if {[check $something] == 1} {
ns_adp_puts {
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
conditionally
}
}
%>
Personal preference, I guess.
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
On 2002.11.08, Rogers Gene A Civ 96 CG/SCTOB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't really want stir up dust on this one, not too much, because it
> hasn't been a real hinderance for me, but the solution presented still would
> allow something like:
>
> set username [ns_conn authuser]
> if { [check $something] == 1 } {
> %>
> Hello, <%= $username%>
> break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
> conditionally
><%
> }
I'd implement this like this:
<%
set username [ns_conn authuser]
if {[check $something] == 1} {
ns_adp_puts [subst {
Hello, $username
break out of Tcl mode and process some HTML
conditionally
}]
}
%>
I'd implement this:
>
> <%
> for {k j z} $listOstuff {
> %>
>
><%= $k %><%= $j %><%= $z %>
>
> <%
> }
> %>
>
Like this:
<%
for {k j z} $listOstuff {
ns_adp_puts [subst {
$k$j$z
}]
}
%>
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
[AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 07:36:33AM -0800, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: > Creating a TCL-accessible array in a C module is trival. Just pass Ah, thanks! Sometimes having one simple example in front of you is so much more useful than any number of man pages. :) > You use Tcl_GetVar to read simple TCL vars in C, or Tcl_GetVar2 to > read TCL array vars in C. Again, these can be local, global, or > ns_shares. Yet another reason why nsv's aren't the greatest thing > since sliced bread. ;) Well, AOLserver really SHOULD ship with a C API to nsv, but since it doesn't, I created my own partial one. It was pretty easy. But then, I took the shortcut of often using Ns_TclEval in my C nsv wrapper functions. If I was doing it as part of AOLserver I'd instead create a real C API and change the nsv Tcl commands to use it. -- Andrew Piskorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.piskorski.com
Re: [AOLSERVER] AOLserver Project Update
Ok, the way I get data from the DB now is much like this:
function db_select($table, $fields, $where) {
...
}
This function creates a select statement based on the criteria I pass
in and returns a single row which I can access like this in PHP:
User: ,
Phone Number:
I use another function to retrieve multiple rows:
function db_select_list($table, $rows, $key, $value, $where, $limit,
$order) {
...
}
Like db_select(), it creates the SQL query for me. But when it receives
data back from the database it loops through it and creates a
multi-dimensional array for me. If I wanted an array of 10 users' names
and phone numbers, ordered and indexed by their id # I'd do this:
$users = db_select_list('users', "user_id,phone,CONCAT('first_name','
','last_name) AS name", 'user_id', '', '10', 'user_id');
now I can do this:
Name
Phone Number
$user_data )
{
?>
Edit
One thing I've thought of is just using lists to handle this with a
custom API. So, I'd have a list where index 0 contains a list of the
key/field names for the rows, and 1-N would contain the rows. Then I
could just use the API like this:
set users [db_select_list ...]
foreach { row } { [my_array rows $users] } {
set name [lindex [lindex $users $row] [my_array getkeyindex "name"]]
...
}
It's a bit kludgey, but I suppose that would work.
- Gabriel
On Thursday, November 7, 2002, at 10:30 PM, Michael A. Cleverly wrote:
On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Gabriel Ricard wrote:
Wonderful!
Now my only gripe is the multi-dimensional array issue, hehe. At least
there are lots of solutions for that problem available.
I'm not at all familiar with PHP. Could you describe (possibly
included
actual PHP code snipets or other pseudo-code) what it is you accomplish
with multi-dimensional arrays? Then we should be able to help flush out
which of the many solutions would be most apropriate.
Michael
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 04:33:41AM -0500, Nathan Folkman wrote: > I hope to continue to see people stepping up to support different languages: > Tcl, Perl, Python, Java, PHP, etc. If there server is well designed, and > things are abstracted correctly, then there would be no reason not to support > as many languages as possible. Me too. > I believe that a big part of AOLserver's success in the future will be based > on the community's unbiased approach to its development - it is just a web > server afterall! ;-) The thing that always amazes me are the different > applications that people have built using the AOLserver. I think of AOLserver as a web application server, not as a general web server. In fact, I often use it as a swiss-army knife for networked applications. This should be even more interesting when libnsd is out. -Roberto -- +|Roberto Mello -http://www.brasileiro.net/ |--+ + Computer Science Graduate Student, Utah State University + + USU Free Software & GNU/Linux Club - http://fslc.usu.edu/ +
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 01:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -> Speaking from the point of view of a recent convert from the Apache/PHP -> world, one thing that will really lower the bar for people like me is a -> document (or article) along the lines of "AOLServer and Tcl for -> Apache/PHP users." From the end user stand point it may be good to have -> packaged versions of AOLServer with snazzy front-ends for configuration -> and maintenance/status of the server. I'm not a terrific write, but I -> think I could maybe crank out something to assist PHP users in getting -> acquainted with AOLServer and Tcl. Tcl along with AOLServer's API is -> just as powerful and extensible as PHP is. In fact it offers a lot of -> things that PHP simply doesn't (pooled DB connections, robust control -> over the use of the HTTP protocol: responses codes, headers, mime -> types, etc.). I think Tcl (or, rather, "single language support") is one of the big things holding AOLserver back. It's nice that you're all convinced of your godliness under Tcl ;), but other smart people like other languages, and they're not going to switch to AOLserver if it means switching to Tcl, however much you tell them they should. Less chauvinism on this front would be much more welcoming, IMO; outright advertising could only help. I was looking at a page last night that had a list of numerous languages available for AOLServer. http://www.panoptic.com/wiki/aolserver/0.html Python, PHP, Ruby, Tcl, Scheme, Java, Perl. It seems to have most of the [important] bases covered. What would make me most likely to try one of those languages is whether or not they expose AOLServer's APIs. From what I could tell PyWX and Ruby do that. I don't know about the others. As a PHP user I'd be more willing to swap servers if I could access the AOLServer API from PHP. As a developer, that is indeed something I am considering pouring some free time into. At the very least to expose ns_db to PHP to speed up page accesses. If there was the ability to load libraries/init scripts for the PHP interpreter like there is for the Tcl interpreter that would be even better since the scripts would not have to load a library for each hit. But having invested enough time in learning Tcl and playing with AOLServer's Tcl API, there's just so much it's got that PHP doesn't. So, it would take a lot of work for me personally to want to use PHP rather than Tcl in AOLServer. That's just my opinion though. ;) - Gabriel
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
-> Now, if adding other scripting language support could be done without -> adding any baggage to the core -- as external modules -- I'm all for it. -> However, I would hate to see the core get bogged down with stuff to -> accomdate all sorts of languages if it means negative impact towards its -> ability to fit the niche I just described. Well, luckily, there's no need to clutter up the core in this way. PyWX is an excellent proof-of-concept here, since it makes Python a peer to Tcl inside of AOLserver, using nothing more than a loadable module. -> I don't understand why people are looking for "wider adoption of -> AOLserver" or "as much publicity as Apache" or whatnot ... while it's -> nice having a large community of users, some of which might contribute -> back to the open source project ... having a piece of software that -> enables the right folks to meet business goals ... that's incredibly -> valuable already. I'm certainly not interested in making you do anything you don't want to do, but I'm not sure why you're struggling so hard against anything you don't use ;). --titus
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
-> I was looking at a page last night that had a list of numerous -> languages available for AOLServer. -> http://www.panoptic.com/wiki/aolserver/0.html You know, I've been on this list for something like 3 years and I've *never* heard of this page or most of these integration projects! Cool! It should be very easy to adapt the PyWX SWIG stuff to produce bindings to the C API for all of these... --titus
[AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of 404's. With IIS this works fine. Broken, perhaps -- but it works. There are several thousand pages involved, and we want to mirror the two sites. Changing all the links is not an option due to many factors. :-(. I looked through the configuration reference, and didn't see anything addressing this issue. Does anyone know of a solution better than storing the files on a FAT filesystem with Linux doing the case reversion in the filesystem layer? Maybe I'm just blind -- but in my five years of running AOLserver I've never run across having to do this. Something like 'urlcase tolower' (modeled after the existent 'headercase' setting) would be nice, but I didn't see it. If I've just missed it, I apologize for wasting bandwidth. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 12:51 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of 404's. I recently had the exact same problem, and finally resorted to asking the client to fix their files. I hated to do it, but I couldn't see any other way. Something with Perl scripts to regexp the links might have been possible, but I decided it was too error-prone to trust it. In our case it was even worse because they hadn't been consistent; for a particular file, some links to it were in lower case and others were in mixed case. So just changing the file name was not an option. Sorry I can't be of more help, janine -- Janine Sisk President/CEO furfly.net, LLC Mont Vernon, NH Phone: 603-672-1122
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
- Original Message - From: "Lamar Owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity. > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS > host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. > However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of > 404's. > There used to be a "custom 404/notfound" handler module for Aolserver that would give you the option of having it check for case mismatch as part of its operation...it worked great.. but I cannot seem to find it anymore..
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:05, Patrick Spence wrote: > From: "Lamar Owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an > > IIS host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case > > filenames. However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I > > get a lot of 404's. > There used to be a "custom 404/notfound" handler module for Aolserver that > would give you the option of having it check for case mismatch as part of > its operation...it worked great.. but I cannot seem to find it anymore.. Apache has mod_speling (sic) that can do this. I'm somewhat surprised this isn't a more common thing. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS > host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. > However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of > 404's. > > With IIS this works fine. Broken, perhaps -- but it works. There are several > thousand pages involved, and we want to mirror the two sites. Changing all > the links is not an option due to many factors. :-(. If you're just serving static HTML, I'd write a pre-auth or post-auth filter to take the url, bash it to lowercase, normalize that with respect to your page root to find the correct file in the filesystem, then [ns_returnfile] it (in the short-term), and fix the links (in the long-term). Michael
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
Have you tried ns_speling? (I haven't.) Any reason why you couldn't register a preauth filter to handle your problem? Jamie Lamar Owen wrote: >There used to be a "custom 404/notfound" handler module for Aolserver that >would give you the option of having it check for case mismatch as part of >its operation...it worked great.. but I cannot seem to find it anymore.. Apache has mod_speling (sic) that can do this. I'm somewhat surprised this isn't a more common thing. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 12:51:58PM -0500, Lamar Owen wrote: > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS > host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. > However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of > 404's. > > With IIS this works fine. Broken, perhaps -- but it works. There are several > thousand pages involved, and we want to mirror the two sites. Changing all > the links is not an option due to many factors. :-(. Well, you could definitely write some Tcl to hijack all incoming requests and handle them all completely yourself, the way the OpenACS 4.x request processor todes. Depending on how fancy the stuff is you need to serve, that probably could be pretty easy or pretty annoying. For something that ties in more transparently to the normal AOLserver request servicing pipeline, I was going to suggest registering a filter and transparently modify the contents of the ns_set returned by 'ns_conn headers', before it gets processed anywhere else by AOLserver. But oops, of course, the HTTP URL isn't part of the headers, so that won't work. And 'ns_conn request' gives you the URL as received from the client, but AFAIK there's no API to let you change it. -- Andrew Piskorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.piskorski.com
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 06:15:00PM +, Jamie Rasmussen wrote: > Have you tried ns_speling? (I haven't.) Any reason why you couldn't > register a preauth filter to handle your problem? I didn't even know there was an ns_speling. Is it on the aolserver cvs? If not, where can one find it? -Roberto -- +|Roberto Mello -http://www.brasileiro.net/ |--+ + Computer Science Graduate Student, Utah State University + + USU Free Software & GNU/Linux Club - http://fslc.usu.edu/ +
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > And 'ns_conn request' gives you the URL as received from the client, > but AFAIK there's no API to let you change it. The aol3.3+ad13 distribution has an "nsrewrite" .so module that enables this, iirc. Michael
[AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Since the core team members will be chosen by vote, I think it's useful to talk about how to decide for whom to vote, so I thought I'd lead off by describing the criteria I'll use. I've got a prioritized list I'll share here. Every core team member does not have to have every criterion, but the three candidates need to be able to join together, Voltron-like, to form a cohesive unit with all of the skills. So here's what I think is important: - Willingness to serve: This is a binary criterion and all it means is whether the nominee is willing to do the job, if elected. Let's move on.. . - Technical proficiency: I'm looking for a nominee with fairly serious code-fu. The core team should have several uber-alpha-geeks on it, and we' re lucky that AOL is supplying some good code-fu on their side of the table. AOLserver is about high-performance, multithreaded web applications written in C and Tcl (foremost) using a database for storage. The means the nominee needs to get C, Tcl, SQL, HTML, HTTP, concurrent programming, network programming, threading, signals, multiplexed I/O (poll/select), interprocess communications, and should have experience with these issues on more than one Unix variant (Windows experience is nice, too). I'll pardon some deficiencies in some advanced HTML design issues such as JavaScript and CSS, but the nominee should understand things like why the browser will bail on a page when the page loads fine but the external stylesheet can't be found. The nominee should also have a good grasp of SSL and cryptography issues, including how a cert chain works, why self-signed certs are not secure, and why an SSL-delivered page that links to a non-SSL image is not a secure page. - Knowledge of and experience with AOLserver: Well, it's the AOLserver core team, after all, so a nominee should have built at least one major application with AOLserver. It would be a big benefit to have someone who went through the transition from 2.x to 3.x so they understand what we gained with 3.x, and what we lost. It's also important the nominee isn't looking to make AOLserver into another Apache, IIS, or SunONE Server; there are valuable concepts and techniques to be borrowed from those other servers, but there has to be a difference between AOLserver and the other thing, or else we should just all use the other thing. - Knowledge of and experience with Tcl: Tcl and AOLserver share a lot of DNA, so a core team member should be completely comfortable with Tcl. Since 2.x, most of the steps taken in AOLserver have tightened the relationship with AOLserver and Tcl; I believe that at this point, you can do a good job of integrating another scripting language with AOLserver, but it will always be second-class when compared with Tcl. I'm not going to pass judgment on that -- AOLserver and Tcl have both gained a lot from the symbionism -- but it is a fact of AOLserver development. A core team member should not have the agenda of making AOLserver the best LISP webserver environment around, at the expense of Tcl. Since the nominee should be comfy with Tcl, they should also be comfortable with the processes around the current organization of Tcl/Tk, including how their core team works, but, while AOLserver and Tcl are like two peas in a pod in a lot of ways, they are _different_ peas, and the nominee should be ready for times when following the "Tcl Way" is not the right thing for AOLserver. - Knowledge of and experience with ACS or OpenACS: Users of ACS and its descendants are probably the largest community of AOLserver developers outside of AOL. If the core team doesn't have at least one member from the OpenACS community, then I think the Open Source effort is failing. Getting an OpenACS member on the core team is good for AOLserver, and it's good for OpenACS. - Experience with at least one other webserver product: This goes back to my ideas about differentiation between AOLserver and other products. Even if it's not clear exactly which products compete with AOLserver, I think a nominee should have done a major application with something else, whether it's Apache and Perl, JBoss, Zope, SunONE, or something else in the category. I think it's particularly good if the nominee has some significant experience with a mainstream product, rather than something with market share on the same order of magnitude as AOLserver. I think we need this because, for example, when someone says they want .htaccess compatibility, the core team members should understand how fundamentally different the .htaccess approach is from that of AOLserver, so a reasonable judgment can be made as to whether to set AOLserver down that road. - Respect for the community: As I see it, the core team members who come from the community are the representatives of the community; membership on the core team is not an opportunity to impose one's will on the community. If the core team is disagreeing with the community most of the time,
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:10, Michael A. Cleverly wrote: > On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Lamar Owen wrote: > > With IIS this works fine. Broken, perhaps -- but it works. There are > > several thousand pages involved, and we want to mirror the two sites. > > Changing all the links is not an option due to many factors. :-(. > If you're just serving static HTML, I'd write a pre-auth or post-auth > filter to take the url, bash it to lowercase, normalize that with respect > to your page root to find the correct file in the filesystem, then > [ns_returnfile] it (in the short-term), and fix the links (in the > long-term). Hmmm. Weighing the options, methinks loopback mounting a large file as a filesystem with the correct mount options will have the best performance, and be the easiest to set up. Doing this now, copying all 200MB of files over... I'll let everybody know how well it works. I just thought that it was such an obvious thing that someone had done this already. Oh well. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
It is available from http://www.vorteon.com/download/ It is a short TCL script by David Walker. Roberto Mello wrote: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 06:15:00PM +, Jamie Rasmussen wrote: >Have you tried ns_speling? (I haven't.) Any reason why you couldn't >register a preauth filter to handle your problem? I didn't even know there was an ns_speling. Is it on the aolserver cvs? If not, where can one find it? -Roberto -- +|Roberto Mello -http://www.brasileiro.net/ |--+ + Computer Science Graduate Student, Utah State University + + USU Free Software & GNU/Linux Club - http://fslc.usu.edu/ +
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
+-- On Nov 8, Lamar Owen said: > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS > host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames. > However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of > 404's. Write a module that provides a Tcl binding for Ns_SetRequestUrl. Then use a that to write a Tcl preauth filter that smashes the URL to lowercase. Or write a module that does the same entirely in C.
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 12:51 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: Does anyone know of a solution better than storing the files on a FAT filesystem with Linux doing the case reversion in the filesystem layer? If you run it on Mac OS X off of an HFS+ partition, you'll get the case-insensitive, case-preserving features.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
On 2002.11.08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -> I was looking at a page last night that had a list of numerous > -> languages available for AOLServer. > -> http://www.panoptic.com/wiki/aolserver/0.html > > You know, I've been on this list for something like 3 years and I've > *never* heard of this page or most of these integration projects! > Cool! I have clearly not been promoting the AOLserver Wiki nearly enough. Grr. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/ "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:25, Peter M. Jansson wrote: > here. Every core team member does not have to have every criterion, but > the three candidates need to be able to join together, Voltron-like, to I don't know which is scarier. The fact he used 'Voltron' in a sentence, or the fact that I grokked it. Lengthier reply to criteria later. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
- Original Message - From: "Lamar Owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) > On Friday 08 November 2002 13:25, Peter M. Jansson wrote: > > here. Every core team member does not have to have every criterion, but > > the three candidates need to be able to join together, Voltron-like, to > > I don't know which is scarier. The fact he used 'Voltron' in a sentence, or > the fact that I grokked it. Lengthier reply to criteria later. Heheh, my first thought was "but Voltron used 5 lions.. not 3" :)
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:26, Rob Mayoff wrote: > +-- On Nov 8, Lamar Owen said: > > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an > > IIS host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case > > filenames. However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I > > get a lot of 404's. > Write a module that provides a Tcl binding for Ns_SetRequestUrl. Then > use a that to write a Tcl preauth filter that smashes the URL to > lowercase. > Or write a module that does the same entirely in C. That would be my long-term choice. Unfortunately I don't have time to do that today. And the mirrored site needs to be up *today*. But a C module to do this is the right way to go for performance reasons. But the loopback VFAT filesystem works, once I get it configured right. Grrr. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
Here is a TCL hack to serve files w/o case sensitivity (not tested):
ns_register_proc GET / servit
ns_register_proc POST / servit
ns_register_proc HEAD / servit
proc servit {conn ignore} {
set url [string tolower [ns_conn url]]
if {[file exists [ns_info pageroot]$url]} {
ns_returnfile 200 [ns_guesstype $url] [ns_info pageroot]$url
} else {
ns_returnnotfound
}
}
Only works for static pages though.
Jim
>
> +-- On Nov 8, Lamar Owen said:
> > This may be an obvious one, but I'm trying to move a site over from an IIS
> > host to an AOLserver one, and the web pages link to mixed-case filenames.
> > However, the filenames are all actually lower case, meaning I get a lot of
> > 404's.
>
> Write a module that provides a Tcl binding for Ns_SetRequestUrl. Then
> use a that to write a Tcl preauth filter that smashes the URL to
> lowercase.
>
> Or write a module that does the same entirely in C.
>
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 01:43 PM, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: Here is a TCL hack to serve files w/o case sensitivity (not tested): That works when the problem is people entering "http://someserver/FOO"; rather than "http://someserver/foo";, but it won't help the case where someone entered the latter, but the content folks uploaded "FOO.HTM" (Guess the OS!) instead of "foo.htm".
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 11:19:09AM -0700, Michael A. Cleverly wrote: > On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > > > And 'ns_conn request' gives you the URL as received from the client, > > but AFAIK there's no API to let you change it. > > The aol3.3+ad13 distribution has an "nsrewrite" .so module that enables > this, iirc. Heh, so it does! And the code is VERY simple too. It just creates the Tcl command ns_rewriteurl, which calls Ns_SetRequestUrl, just as Rob outlined below. On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 12:26:02PM -0600, Rob Mayoff wrote: > Write a module that provides a Tcl binding for Ns_SetRequestUrl. Then > use a that to write a Tcl preauth filter that smashes the URL to > lowercase. -- Andrew Piskorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.piskorski.com
[AOLSERVER] [OT] Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:40, Patrick Spence wrote: > Heheh, my first thought was "but Voltron used 5 lions.. not 3" :) Which of the three Voltrons? :-) There was a Voltron with three parts. Way off-topic. Sorry. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
But in the problem definition, all files were stored in lowercase on disk. :) Jim > > On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 01:43 PM, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: > > > Here is a TCL hack to serve files w/o case sensitivity (not tested): > > > That works when the problem is people entering "http://someserver/FOO"; > rather than "http://someserver/foo";, but it won't help the case where > someone entered the latter, but the content folks uploaded "FOO.HTM" > (Guess the OS!) instead of "foo.htm". >
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 02:05 PM, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: But in the problem definition, all files were stored in lowercase on disk. :) Sorry about that. I had my brain filters on when reading.
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
On Friday 08 November 2002 13:43, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: > Here is a TCL hack to serve files w/o case sensitivity (not tested): I might give that a whirl later. The loopback-mount VFAT works, and works well, as long as you remember VFAT's root directory limits on number of files. Basically: nsadmin has uid=501, gid=501: dd if=/dev/zero of=fs.VFAT bs=1024k count=$number-of-megabytes mkfs.vfat fs.VFAT mount -o loop temp-mnt-point fs.VFAT cp -rv $AOLSERVERHOME/servers/servername/* temp-mnt-point umount temp-mnt-point Move the old servername tree out of the way, then edit /etc/fstab to add the line, assuming $AOLSERVERHOME = /home/nsadmin: /home/nsadmin/servers/servername/home/nsadmin/fs.VFAT vfat loop,uid=501,gid=501,auto 0 0 And mount -a. (or reboot). Performance is snappy. And the pageroot's quota is hard-coded in the size of the loopback mounted file. I didn't put /home/nsadmin/servers/servername/pages as the mount point due to too many files in the root directory on this particular site. I'll just have to watch the growth of the log files in modules. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] URL case insensitivity.
"Michael A. Cleverly" wrote: > The aol3.3+ad13 distribution has an "nsrewrite" .so module that enables > this, iirc. This module is like the best thing since sliced bread, so simple yet so good. :) --Tom Jackson
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
Patrick Spence wrote: > The more people using the software in my mind means the larger likelyhood > that the software will remain developed.. so its purely selfish on my part.. > put that together with the added advantage that with more people using it > there is likely to be more people coding addons for it and I get very happy. > Lets look at it another way. If someone chooses to use AOLserver all they need to learn is tcl. If you have a new language added, and the package is written in that language, now you might have to learn some other language. Having one main language makes it easier, not harder to use AOLserver. Also, if you have a problem with a second language module, and you post it to this list, you have less gurus available to help out. --Tom Jackson
[AOLSERVER] ACT voting procedural question
Since AOL already has representatives on the core team, should AOL employees be prohibited from voting for community core team members?
Re: [AOLSERVER] ACT voting procedural question
On 2002.11.08, Peter M. Jansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Since AOL already has representatives on the core team, should AOL > employees be prohibited from voting for community core team members? Should nominees be prohibited from voting as well, then? -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/ "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Re: [AOLSERVER] ACT voting procedural question
In a message dated 11/8/2002 2:50:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Should nominees be prohibited from voting as well, then? -- Dossy I think everyone should get one vote, which you can chose to use for yourself, or for someone else. Hadn't really given much thought to whether or not AOL employees could/should vote. Honestly I don't see why not since everyone's goal here is to pick the best team to help lead the project going forward. I'd love to hear more feedback from the community about this though. - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] [OT] Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
- Original Message - From: "Lamar Owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: [AOLSERVER] [OT] Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) > On Friday 08 November 2002 13:40, Patrick Spence wrote: > > Heheh, my first thought was "but Voltron used 5 lions.. not 3" :) > > Which of the three Voltrons? :-) There was a Voltron with three parts. The lion voltron.. :) the one that was most popular in my area.. then they had the vehicle one with boku lots of cars and other vehicles.. I know of a third one that I never saw so thats prolly the one with three parts.. :) > Way off-topic. Sorry. Its sorta related.. um, cause ... its all about modularity.. and aolserver has modules... :)
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
- Original Message - From: "Tom Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update) > Patrick Spence wrote: > > > The more people using the software in my mind means the larger likelyhood > > that the software will remain developed.. so its purely selfish on my part.. > > put that together with the added advantage that with more people using it > > there is likely to be more people coding addons for it and I get very happy. > > Lets look at it another way. If someone chooses to use AOLserver all > they need to learn is tcl. If you have a new language added, and the > package is written in that language, now you might have to learn some > other language. Having one main language makes it easier, not harder to > use AOLserver. Also, if you have a problem with a second language > module, and you post it to this list, you have less gurus available to > help out. Unless they want to use third party add-ons that are not, and are not likely to be in tcl... for example, Gallery is a fantastic php based image gallery... I would MUCH rather swap that in and let it go than write something as comprehensive from scratch... which I have done on one of my sites, but not all the features are supported since aolserver isn't 100% compatible with how apache does some things.. or more specifically how some apache modules do some things..
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages (was: Project Update)
Daniel C. Wickstrom wrote: > For instance, a big hurdle in integrating java with aolserver was > due to the way aolserver initiates startup. While starting, > aolserver blocks signals. Instead of blocking them, it might be possible to have aolserver catch signals and write a signal handler that was smart enough to do the "right thing" with them. Maybe a module could register what signals it wanted to know about with the core server. Sounds like a fairly complicated problem, but worth looking into. /s.
Re: [AOLSERVER] [OT] Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 01:53 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: On Friday 08 November 2002 13:40, Patrick Spence wrote: Heheh, my first thought was "but Voltron used 5 lions.. not 3" :) Which of the three Voltrons? :-) There was a Voltron with three parts. Am I missing something? I only recall the one with the lions and the one with the cars. What was the other one? (p.s., i liked the cars better) - Gabriel
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Peter M. Jansson wrote: > Since the core team members will be chosen by vote, > I think it's useful to talk about how to decide for > whom to vote, so I thought I'd lead off by describing > the criteria I'll use. I've got a prioritized list... One criteria you missed was the willingness to learn, to know when you don't know something, and to commit yourself to a project that takes a lot of your time but you're still willing to do it (hmmm - that's three things. Fourth: a good sense of humor :) I don't consider myself a black-belt in the martial art of coding, which means I probably don't qualify based on the criteria you've given, so I guess I lost your vote. I think the core team needs to be composed of people who are competent coders, who can learn the architectural and coding issues as necessary, and who will represent the community at large. They must also have Vision, enough to see the project as a whole and not get lost in the details of the "next" neat thing. I'm sure that decisions will be made with input from anyone who gives it, and architectural issues will be discussed openly. Although I'm not a dues-paying member of the OpenACS community, I don't see that as an impediment. When an OpenACS / AOLserver issue arises, we'll work with the OpenACS community to find a solution that fits the AOLserver philosophy and resolves the issue. As far as I'm concerned, anything that makes AOLserver more capable and versatile while not sacrificing performance and the integrity of the core server and modules is a good thing. Should the AOL dev team members have a vote? Absolutely. They are involved with AOLserver as individuals, they run the largest sites that use AOLserver. Also, the AOL dev team is taking a risk with us as well as helping support the effort financially through the salaries of some of their employees. They don't need us, but we do need them, and the fact that they are now willing to take this risk speaks volumes given the tone of the past relationship between the AOLserver community and AOL. I'd say vote for who you feel most comfortable with. I'm probably voting for Zoran (you are *such* a sucker, BTW -- it was s easy to twist your arm ;) Why vote for me? I suppose because I've been doing something about bringing the community and AOL together for some time now, and I like to think that I had something to do with the progress we've made so far. Besides, who else is willing to run naked through the streets in service to "the cause"? /s. Note to myself: Oh my God -- I've become a Politician!
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
You must have skipped over the "Voltron" paragraph. On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:27 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: I don't consider myself a black-belt in the martial art of coding, which means I probably don't qualify based on the criteria you've given, so I guess I lost your vote.
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
In a message dated 11/8/2002 4:27:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They don't need us, but we do need them, and the fact that they are now willing to take this risk speaks volumes given the tone of the past relationship between the AOLserver community and AOL. Actually, we very much do need the community! :-) Here's a great example: something like 98% of the AOLserver bug reports come you out there in the community. The continued success of AOLserver is very much dependent on continued community involvement. Remember, your help completing the documentation will prevent Jim from deleting all of the 4.0 code. ;-) Have a great weekend, and don't forget to get me those core team nominations! - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
I read it, but sadly I had to lookup Voltron on the net. I lived overseas at the time, and when I came back to the states, went straight to college, sans television. So I'm not up on popular tv culture of that era. I hope a thorough knowledge of Voltron isn't a prerequisite for being on the core team ;) /s. -Original Message- From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLSERVER@;LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Peter M. Jansson Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) You must have skipped over the "Voltron" paragraph. On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:27 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: > I don't consider myself a > black-belt in the martial art of coding, which means I probably don't > qualify based on the criteria you've given, so I guess I lost your > vote.
Re: [AOLSERVER] [OT] Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Friday 08 November 2002 16:17, Gabriel Ricard wrote: > Am I missing something? I only recall the one with the lions and the > one with the cars. > What was the other one? google for 'Albegas' -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:27 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: Should the AOL dev team members have a vote? Absolutely. They are involved with AOLserver as individuals, they run the largest sites that use AOLserver. I've been lucky enough to get some contracting gigs with AOL over the years, and have known many of the folks, who are among the nicest and smartest I've met. My question about voting was not intended to reflect any feelings toward AOL whatsoever. I was concerned it might have been taken that way, but when I tried to write a little about it, I thought it was too confusing, so I just let the question stand. Here's the thing: what is the purpose of the open-source community segment of the core team? The AOL part is clear -- they make sure that AOLserver continues to serve AOL's needs. There could be a lot of reasons for the core team, so I just stuck a stake in the ground around the one: the community members of the core team _represent_ the open source community. Maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then there's a question of fairness, and since AOL employees already have representation, and since the open source community has _no_ choice over the composition of the AOL team, is it really fair for AOL employees to try to influence the representation of the other folks? What if they nominate a bunch of other AOL employees, and vote them in, leaving the open source community with no real representation. Well, for that matter, there are a bunch of other parliamentary questions, like how do we guarantee that everybody who votes gets a single vote, and how to we guarantee that the ballot box doesn't get stuffed with votes from folks who have no interest in AOLserver, and... I think the community is small enough that we can all trust each other on this first vote (in the future, some procedures should be put in place, but that's a job for core team 1.0), so I didn't really think it was worth bringing up the parliamentary issues. Except for the fairness one, because that's a bit different, in my view. That's not a question of cheating, so much as a question of fairness, and getting to the "will of the people" (to which, as an American, I have a little sensitivity). I just had the passing thought that votes for open source community members, given by AOL employees, were diluting the representation somehow. Assuming the job of the community members of the core team is representation -- and I'm not sure I'm right about that. It was just a simple question, although I think the answer is far from straightforward, but I don't think either of the answers is really wrong. I do think the answers help clarify the role of the core team. But I didn't really mean to bend anyone out of shape over this. It was just a question, and I didn't know if it had occurred to anyone else.
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
My point was that my criteria -- and they are just mine, I don't think anyone should feel obliged to use them -- were less a set of checkboxes than a set of weighted scores, and that the scores for the individual can balance with the scores for team as a whole. If one person is weaker at coding, but stronger at community relations, it may come out as a wash, as long as there's someone else with more coding strength involved. And I really appreciate your sharing some of your criteria. It helps me think about mine more. I hope others will share, too -- that's really why I sent that note. On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:47 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: I read it, but sadly I had to lookup Voltron on the net. I lived overseas at the time,
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
In a message dated 11/8/2002 4:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But I didn't really mean to bend anyone out of shape over this. It was just a question, and I didn't know if it had occurred to anyone else. Pete, I think you raise very valid points. I don't think there would be any adverse effects of having the vote limited to community members only. As I said before, I'm completely open to whatever everyone thinks is best. This whole process is something new for me, so I don't have all the answers, and am definitely looking for feedback from the community. Have a great weekend! PS - Jim isn't really going to delete code, but he will give me a hard time if we don't get it done soon. ;-) So please help me finish up the documentation! - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
In a message dated 11/8/2002 10:50:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 07:36:33AM -0800, Jim Wilcoxson wrote: >Creating a TCL-accessible array in a C module is trival. Just pass Ah, thanks! Sometimes having one simple example in front of you is so much more useful than any number of man pages. :) >You use Tcl_GetVar to read simple TCL vars in C, or Tcl_GetVar2 to >read TCL array vars in C. Again, these can be local, global, or >ns_shares. Yet another reason why nsv's aren't the greatest thing >since sliced bread. ;) Well, AOLserver really SHOULD ship with a C API to nsv, but since it doesn't, I created my own partial one. It was pretty easy. But then, I took the shortcut of often using Ns_TclEval in my C nsv wrapper functions. If I was doing it as part of AOLserver I'd instead create a real C API and change the nsv Tcl commands to use it. Perhaps nsv should be replaced with the svar work Zoran had worked on? You could provide backwards compatibility wrappers of course. What do you think Zoran? - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:34:43PM -0500, Nathan Folkman wrote: > In a message dated 11/8/2002 10:50:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Well, AOLserver really SHOULD ship with a C API to nsv, but since it > > doesn't, I created my own partial one. It was pretty easy. But then, > > I took the shortcut of often using Ns_TclEval in my C nsv wrapper > > functions. If I was doing it as part of AOLserver I'd instead create > > a real C API and change the nsv Tcl commands to use it. > Perhaps nsv should be replaced with the svar work Zoran had worked on? You > could provide backwards compatibility wrappers of course. What do you think > Zoran? I'm not sure, but I think Zoran already DID make his stuff backwards compatabile with the nsv_* API. I haven't tried his (way cool, btw!) Tcl Thead Extension yet, but last I checked its tls code was organized similarly to the nsv code, no C API. -- Andrew Piskorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.piskorski.com
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
In a message dated 11/8/2002 5:42:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure, but I think Zoran already DID make his stuff backwards compatabile with the nsv_* API. I haven't tried his (way cool, btw!) Tcl Thead Extension yet, but last I checked its tls code was organized similarly to the nsv code, no C API. Maybe Zoran would be willing to add some C hooks, and we could look at replacing our nsv implementation with his. Your call Zoran. ;-) - n
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Good points, but I think they're all moot in this particular election. All of the nominees I'm aware of are great candidates to be on the community-side of the core team, and all of them would do a superb job of representing the community's interests. So the question *not* will the elected community members represent the community's interests, but who from the community will it be? I have no heartburn with AOL members voting, but if the rest of you don't want that, I'm ok with that too. /s. -Original Message- From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLSERVER@;LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Peter M. Jansson Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:27 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: > Should the AOL dev team members have a vote? Absolutely. They are > involved with AOLserver as individuals, they run the largest sites > that use AOLserver. I've been lucky enough to get some contracting gigs with AOL over the years, and have known many of the folks, who are among the nicest and smartest I've met. My question about voting was not intended to reflect any feelings toward AOL whatsoever. I was concerned it might have been taken that way, but when I tried to write a little about it, I thought it was too confusing, so I just let the question stand. Here's the thing: what is the purpose of the open-source community segment of the core team? The AOL part is clear -- they make sure that AOLserver continues to serve AOL's needs. There could be a lot of reasons for the core team, so I just stuck a stake in the ground around the one: the community members of the core team _represent_ the open source community. Maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then there's a question of fairness, and since AOL employees already have representation, and since the open source community has _no_ choice over the composition of the AOL team, is it really fair for AOL employees to try to influence the representation of the other folks? What if they nominate a bunch of other AOL employees, and vote them in, leaving the open source community with no real representation. Well, for that matter, there are a bunch of other parliamentary questions, like how do we guarantee that everybody who votes gets a single vote, and how to we guarantee that the ballot box doesn't get stuffed with votes from folks who have no interest in AOLserver, and... I think the community is small enough that we can all trust each other on this first vote (in the future, some procedures should be put in place, but that's a job for core team 1.0), so I didn't really think it was worth bringing up the parliamentary issues. Except for the fairness one, because that's a bit different, in my view. That's not a question of cheating, so much as a question of fairness, and getting to the "will of the people" (to which, as an American, I have a little sensitivity). I just had the passing thought that votes for open source community members, given by AOL employees, were diluting the representation somehow. Assuming the job of the community members of the core team is representation -- and I'm not sure I'm right about that. It was just a simple question, although I think the answer is far from straightforward, but I don't think either of the answers is really wrong. I do think the answers help clarify the role of the core team. But I didn't really mean to bend anyone out of shape over this. It was just a question, and I didn't know if it had occurred to anyone else.
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Title: Message I stand corrected! It's nice to be wanted by someone other than the police for a change. What I meant by that statement was that you have a team that is focused on AOLserver, while the community is rather fragmented and unfocused on AOLserver as a whole -- we aren't organized. We in the community need you at AOL to help bring the community together so we can coordinate our efforts. The risk I was talking about regarded allowing decisions about AOLserver architecture to be voted on by individuals not working at AOL who are not focused on your business needs, though I'm sure you will benefit from the improvements that come from the community. /s. -Original Message-From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Nathan FolkmanSent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:46 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)In a message dated 11/8/2002 4:27:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They don't need us, but we do need them, and thefact that they are now willing to take this risk speaks volumes giventhe tone of the past relationship between the AOLserver community andAOL.Actually, we very much do need the community! :-) Here's a great example: something like 98% of the AOLserver bug reports come you out there in the community. The continued success of AOLserver is very much dependent on continued community involvement.Remember, your help completing the documentation will prevent Jim from deleting all of the 4.0 code. ;-) Have a great weekend, and don't forget to get me those core team nominations!- n
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
I think I understand what you intended. Thanks for clearing it up for me. /s. -Original Message- From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLSERVER@;LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Peter M. Jansson Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) My point was that my criteria -- and they are just mine, I don't think anyone should feel obliged to use them -- were less a set of checkboxes than a set of weighted scores, and that the scores for the individual can balance with the scores for team as a whole. If one person is weaker at coding, but stronger at community relations, it may come out as a wash, as long as there's someone else with more coding strength involved. And I really appreciate your sharing some of your criteria. It helps me think about mine more. I hope others will share, too -- that's really why I sent that note. On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:47 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: > I read it, but sadly I had to lookup Voltron on the net. I lived > overseas at the time,
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
On Friday 08 November 2002 23:34, you wrote: > Perhaps nsv should be replaced with the svar work Zoran had worked on? You > could provide backwards compatibility wrappers of course. What do you think > Zoran? The code in current threading extension, implementing the thread shared variables (aka nsv_*) has already all compatibility wrappers built in. One can compile the Tcl threading extension for AOLserver and this will turn on the compatibility wappers automatically (beside providing a very nice thread-abstraction in addition). The tsv::* differs from the original nsv in terms of much larger command set, built-in shared Tcl objects and other goodies, while maintaining the backward compatibility. I have no external-defined C-API but I can refactor to code a little. This would be no problem at all. I would say, one could take this into consideration for one of the next releases. Cheers Zoran
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Since AOL has already picked its representation, it seems to me they should not vote on the community half of the core team. Not that their votes would necessarily be wrong or bad or have any nefarious intention, but more in the interest of fairness, as has been said before. Just my opinion. This brings up another question: what constitutes a voting member? Does one company get 1 vote, or does each employee at a company get a vote? For myself, if rather short term limits are put on the members anyway, I'd be satisfied with listing certain criteria to be a team member, and letting any individual meeting those criteria participate on the core team. If there are too many nominees, pick out of a hat. The assumption going in is that they are all qualified. I don't think there will be tons of people fighting over this job because of the time required. Jim > On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 04:27 PM, Scott S. Goodwin wrote: > > > Should the AOL dev team members have a vote? Absolutely. They are > > involved with AOLserver as individuals, they run the largest sites that > > use AOLserver.
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
Hi - this sounds interesting. Can an ns_share emulation be implemented on top of this new shared var mechanism with good performance, i.e., at least equivalent to TCL7.6 ns_shares? Jim > > On Friday 08 November 2002 23:34, you wrote: > > Perhaps nsv should be replaced with the svar work Zoran had worked on? You > > could provide backwards compatibility wrappers of course. What do you think > > Zoran? > > The code in current threading extension, implementing the thread shared > variables (aka nsv_*) has already all compatibility wrappers built in. > One can compile the Tcl threading extension for AOLserver and this will > turn on the compatibility wappers automatically (beside providing a very > nice thread-abstraction in addition). > The tsv::* differs from the original nsv in terms of much larger command set, > built-in shared Tcl objects and other goodies, while maintaining the > backward compatibility. > > I have no external-defined C-API but I can refactor to code a little. > This would be no problem at all. I would say, one could take this into > consideration for one of the next releases. > > Cheers > Zoran >
Re: [AOLSERVER] nsv needs C API Re: [AOLSERVER] ns_set,
Since we are talking about these useful global data structures, I want to again bring up a question. Jim once mentioned AOL's internal use of what was called a 'network var', is there any chance the ideas or code behind that could be released at some point? --Tom Jackson
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Jim Wilcoxson wrote: For myself, if rather short term limits are put on the members anyway, I'd be satisfied with listing certain criteria to be a team member, and letting any individual meeting those criteria participate on the core team. If there are too many nominees, pick out of a hat. The assumption going in is that they are all qualified. I don't think there will be tons of people fighting over this job because of the time required. I doubt any of the current nominees would participate in development less than they currently do if they are not voted onto the core team. I also think that the choice isn't that critical, because just the fact that three members of the core (that is half the members, right) will be from outside AOL, and will give the community more insight and access to the whole process. It also isn't that critical, because everyone nominated is well qualified. If the tcl core mode of operation is used, it looks like a disruptive member could be replaced with a 2/3 vote of the remaining members; so if a bad choice is made, someone can be replaced fairly easily. However if someone is doing a great job, as agreed by the other core members, why should they be replaced? Nothing precludes other community members from being very involved in the development process. At least the other AOL core members should be given a vote on who will serve with them. It might also be nice to use cumulative voting. Since there are three positions, everyone should get three votes. You can vote for three nominees, or if you feel strongly, place all you votes for one nominee. --Tom Jackson
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Tom Jackson wrote: > It might also be nice to use cumulative voting. Since there are three > positions, everyone should get three votes. You can vote for three > nominees, or if you feel strongly, place all you votes for one nominee. As I recall, when the Tcl Core team was formed, and there were to be x # of members (don't recall how many--I know it's grown since), everyone got x # of votes (though you couldn't vote for the same person more than once). Michael
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
> > It might also be nice to use cumulative voting. Since there are three > > positions, everyone should get three votes. You can vote for three > > nominees, or if you feel strongly, place all you votes for one nominee. > > As I recall, when the Tcl Core team was formed, and there were to be x # > of members (don't recall how many--I know it's grown since), everyone got > x # of votes (though you couldn't vote for the same person more than > once). That is correct, each person was allowed (IIRC) 3 votes among the 15+ candidates. However, you weren't allowed to vote multiple times for one person. Jeff
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
> Since AOL has already picked its representation, it seems to me they > should not vote on the community half of the core team. Not that > their votes would necessarily be wrong or bad or have any nefarious > intention, but more in the interest of fairness, as has been said I disagree on this point, for a couple of reasons. While they have picked their own representation (which I feel is a good thing, because often the community has no idea who the behind-the-scenes people are and discounts them unfairly for that), they are also part of the community and users of AOLServer. As such, they need to vote on the community seats as well. All in all, their votes would only be a small part of the whole (one would assume). > This brings up another question: what constitutes a voting member? > Does one company get 1 vote, or does each employee at a company get a > vote? Each member of the core team should have a vote, regardless of company. When the TCT (Tcl Core Team) was formed, it had several employees of Scriptics/Ajuba, each as equal members with the others. There is no Scriptics anymore (acquire), but each of those people is still TCT member at a new company, and still participates. While it's unlikely that AOL is going to be acquired (hey Jim, any insider trading info?), it's one of several good reasons to establish an all-equal core team members. > For myself, if rather short term limits are put on the members anyway, Time limits are fine, but what time? 1 year, 2? Any shorter and it just becomes a hassle, and 2 years is 100 in internet time. I think the easiest is the self-managing aspect that the TCT added (although, to be honest, the TCT is overweight ...). Jeff
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
Exactly. Even though they work for AOL, they are still a part of the AOLserver community and should have a vote. I wish I could have put it this clearly. /s. -Original Message- From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLSERVER@;LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Jeff Hobbs Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long) > Since AOL has already picked its representation, it seems to me they > should not vote on the community half of the core team. Not that > their votes would necessarily be wrong or bad or have any nefarious > intention, but more in the interest of fairness, as has been said I disagree on this point, for a couple of reasons. While they have picked their own representation (which I feel is a good thing, because often the community has no idea who the behind-the-scenes people are and discounts them unfairly for that), they are also part of the community and users of AOLServer. As such, they need to vote on the community seats as well. All in all, their votes would only be a small part of the whole (one would assume). > This brings up another question: what constitutes a voting member? > Does one company get 1 vote, or does each employee at a company get a > vote? Each member of the core team should have a vote, regardless of company. When the TCT (Tcl Core Team) was formed, it had several employees of Scriptics/Ajuba, each as equal members with the others. There is no Scriptics anymore (acquire), but each of those people is still TCT member at a new company, and still participates. While it's unlikely that AOL is going to be acquired (hey Jim, any insider trading info?), it's one of several good reasons to establish an all-equal core team members. > For myself, if rather short term limits are put on the members anyway, Time limits are fine, but what time? 1 year, 2? Any shorter and it just becomes a hassle, and 2 years is 100 in internet time. I think the easiest is the self-managing aspect that the TCT added (although, to be honest, the TCT is overweight ...). Jeff
Re: [AOLSERVER] How I'll vote for core team members (long)
> > This brings up another question: what constitutes a voting member? > > Does one company get 1 vote, or does each employee at a company get a > > vote? > > Each member of the core team should have a vote, regardless of company. I meant in the community, who gets a vote?
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages
At 08:20 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: >On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 04:33:41AM -0500, Nathan Folkman wrote: > >> I hope to continue to see people stepping up to support different languages: >> Tcl, Perl, Python, Java, PHP, etc. If there server is well designed, and >> things are abstracted correctly, then there would be no reason not to support >> as many languages as possible. > >I think of AOLserver as a web application server, not as a general >web server. In fact, I often use it as a swiss-army knife for networked >applications. This should be even more interesting when libnsd is out. > >-Roberto I agree with Roberto. I consider AOLserver to be a web application server, though with the hijacking of the name by the J2EE crowd, I am not exactly sure what a web application server is. But I would like to see more (of something) go into making AOLserver an even better web application server. Support for more languages is critical to AOLserver's long term success. The momentum these days in somewhere in the PHP, Python, J2EE, C# worlds. If we want to attract the smart developers and if we want to make it easier to sell into organizations, if we want to compete with these technologies, then we need some amount of support for more languages. There is a question of what users want when they want language support. Do they want: A) Apache/Zope/ APIs? B) Languages as independent black box modules. As an example, support for Gallery (PHP) doesn't imply PHP support where a PHP module can add registered filters, procs, etc. C) Language support as cooperating modules. My java modules can easily create/modify data structures available to my python modules and my tcl modules. D) Language support where each language is an equal peer with Tcl and C. For each connection perhaps, "I" can decide whether to attach a Tcl, Python, or Ruby interp to the thread. I can develop registered procs and filters in any language of my choice. What I mainly want is stability. It aggrieves me that neither pywx nor php are considered to be stable. That leads me to using AOLserver for Tcl, and using Apache for PHP. After that, I would like to see (C) cooperating modules as a goal, but would settle for (B) independent language modules. I am very curious as to what would make AOLserver an even better application server than it already is. These days I suspect a very healthy support for XML, XML-RPC, and SOAP are way up there. I suspect the move to using standard Tcl and therefore support for standard Tcl libraries will go along way. But what other things, in what other ways, could AOLserver support your apps? Jerry
Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages
- Original Message - From: "Jerry Asher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Other languages > B) Languages as independent black box modules. As an example, > support for Gallery (PHP) doesn't imply PHP support > where a PHP module can add registered filters, procs, etc. I would -love- to be able to register procs that use PHP functions.. that would make it easier to adminster some things that I am developing using only php instead of switching back and forth... > What I mainly want is stability. It aggrieves me that neither pywx nor php > are considered to be stable. That leads me to using AOLserver for Tcl, and > using Apache for PHP. After the glibc fiasco and the result of me doubling stackspace on my servers, php is perfectly fine here.. the wierd crashes I was getting have all disappeared, all php applications that wouldn't run right (such as squirrelmail) now run with no problems instead of segfaulting the server... > I am very curious as to what would make AOLserver an even better application > server than it already is. These days I suspect a very healthy support for > XML, XML-RPC, and SOAP are way up there. I suspect the move to using > standard Tcl and therefore support for standard Tcl libraries will go along > way. But what other things, in what other ways, could AOLserver support > your apps? be able to emulate other servers and technologies.. if it could go into IIS or Apache emulation mode, it would let people migrate fast, then slowly migrate to TCL or other native scripting as their time permits. -- Patrick Spence www.RandomRamblings.com www.Ariven.com
