Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Doug put it best a few weeks back. Leave base development mode for BMC and everything else in best practice mode. Why the need to jump between modes? 9.9 out of 10 times best practice mode will meet all your needs. The other .1 is because BMC wants to make changes to their code in base mode. There are ways to creatively use the different modes. However, there are certain risks. At the end of the day best practice mode and overlays are there as a huge benefit, so use that as an advantage. Jumping between modes will just lead to a lot of issues. Brian From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) arslist@ARSLIST.ORG on behalf of Raj ravi6...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:05 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** Thanks everyone for their responses. Spent quite some time reading on posts related to Overlays, BPCU, Developer Studio 7.6.04, etc...and trying to understand what all it means and implies. Here's the situation I am in now(lil' confused), need some advise from experts in here: As mentioned in the original post - [While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s).] -User form - recreated by Installer OOTB - converted to overlay - added custom fields...done. -Customizations - We had some customizations around user onboarding process which uses Outer Join between SHR:People and User(SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser). It appeared to be that this form was part of OOTB Remedy in version 5 and in my company, we heavily used this form for customizations and created customer user onboarding process. But looks like in later versions on Remedy BMC dropped this join form. In short, I am on ARS v7.6.04 with User, SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as Overlays and some workflow which I had to modify and re-import/modify as Overlays.(Manually created overlays) Based on the above info, I have couple of questions: 1. Upgrade to ARS v8.1. Is it ok to upgrade to ARS v8.1 with only the above listed forms/workflow as Overlays and rest all are still as Base(Customization Type - Unmodified). As BMC recommends to convert either into Overlays or Custom objects(Ideally). But read some posts where folks encountered issues while using BPCU and had to do manual rework later on. Basically, would like to avoid these issues and manual work and hence do not want to run BPCU/or convert into Overlays or Custom objects. Did anyone had the same situation where only few objects you converted to Overlays Custom but most you left to Base(Unmodified) and have gone through successful upgrade to ARS v8.1(or 8.0, etc) 2. Future Customizations: Now since I have mix of objects some are Overlays and most are still Base(Unmodified), how to decide to do custom development going forward. So e.g., If customization is needed later on - add some workflow to join form SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser(Overlaid) - it is not available in Base Development Mode(BD) so do I just do it in Best Practice Customization(BPC) Mode or convert it from Overlay to Base and go to BD mode and then do development. So,basically it is kind of challenge to juggle between Base Development Mode and Best Practice Customization mode to do development for a same feature. Sorry for the long post, still trying to understand on Overlays... Please advise. Regards, Raj _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or action in reliance upon the contents of the information transmitted is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please delete it immediately. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
One 'problem' with it would be if they at some point in the future decide to install a newer version of ITSM...they would then have custom objects with the same names as 'base' objectsbut I don't know enough to know if this is a scenario that needs to be worried about or not. I have seen many posts from people that essentially say 'I plan on staying in base with my custom stuff, and not deal with all of that other overlay stuff'...and that's cool, but they continue to put themselves in front of the wrecking ball that BMC is trying to help all of us avoid by creating this overlay mechanism. On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Jason Miller jason.mil...@gmail.comwrote: ** I agree. I think what is a bit extra confusing in Raj's situation is they have a mix of Help Desk 5.6 and other custom development. While HD 5.6 is technically BMC code at this point Raj's company pretty much owns it (maybe not legally but in practice) and might as well consider it custom. So where to draw the line? SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as mentioned are not AR System core forms but are from ITSM/Help Desk. Since this is an environment you plan on having for a while (if I remember correctly), if it were me I would convert those to custom. The best course might be to do a fresh install of just AR System to get a current list of out of the box forms and workflow. Any object that exists in that fresh system I would verify is base in your existing system. If you customized something in the existing system and it exists in the fresh system verify it was done using overlays. All objects that do not exist in the fresh system should be converted to custom. That will get you synced up with how BMC expects an 8.x system to be layered. LJ, anybody else with overlay experience, does this sound about right? Jason On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Brian Pancia panc...@finityit.comwrote: ** Doug put it best a few weeks back. Leave base development mode for BMC and everything else in best practice mode. Why the need to jump between modes? 9.9 out of 10 times best practice mode will meet all your needs. The other .1 is because BMC wants to make changes to their code in base mode. There are ways to creatively use the different modes. However, there are certain risks. At the end of the day best practice mode and overlays are there as a huge benefit, so use that as an advantage. Jumping between modes will just lead to a lot of issues. Brian -- *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) arslist@ARSLIST.ORG on behalf of Raj ravi6...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:05 PM *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG *Subject:* Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** Thanks everyone for their responses. Spent quite some time reading on posts related to Overlays, BPCU, Developer Studio 7.6.04, etc...and trying to understand what all it means and implies. Here's the situation I am in now(lil' confused), need some advise from experts in here: As mentioned in the original post - *[While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s).]* -User form - recreated by Installer OOTB - converted to overlay - added custom fields...done. -Customizations - We had some customizations around user onboarding process which uses Outer Join between SHR:People and User(SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser). It appeared to be that this form was part of OOTB Remedy in version 5 and in my company, we heavily used this form for customizations and created customer user onboarding process. But looks like in later versions on Remedy BMC dropped this join form. In short, I am on ARS v7.6.04 with User, SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as Overlays and some workflow which I had to modify and re-import/modify as Overlays.(Manually created overlays) Based on the above info, I have couple of questions: 1. Upgrade to ARS v8.1. Is it ok to upgrade to ARS v8.1 with only the above listed forms/workflow as Overlays and rest all are still as Base(Customization Type - Unmodified). As BMC recommends to convert either into Overlays or Custom objects(Ideally). But read some posts where folks encountered issues while using BPCU and had to do manual rework later on. Basically, would like to avoid these issues and manual work and hence do not want to run BPCU/or convert into Overlays or Custom objects. Did anyone had the same situation where only few objects you converted to Overlays Custom but most you left to Base(Unmodified) and have gone through successful upgrade to ARS v8.1(or 8.0, etc) 2. Future Customizations: Now since I have mix of objects some are Overlays and most are still Base(Unmodified), how to decide to do custom development going forward. So
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
I agree. I think what is a bit extra confusing in Raj's situation is they have a mix of Help Desk 5.6 and other custom development. While HD 5.6 is technically BMC code at this point Raj's company pretty much owns it (maybe not legally but in practice) and might as well consider it custom. So where to draw the line? SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as mentioned are not AR System core forms but are from ITSM/Help Desk. Since this is an environment you plan on having for a while (if I remember correctly), if it were me I would convert those to custom. The best course might be to do a fresh install of just AR System to get a current list of out of the box forms and workflow. Any object that exists in that fresh system I would verify is base in your existing system. If you customized something in the existing system and it exists in the fresh system verify it was done using overlays. All objects that do not exist in the fresh system should be converted to custom. That will get you synced up with how BMC expects an 8.x system to be layered. LJ, anybody else with overlay experience, does this sound about right? Jason On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Brian Pancia panc...@finityit.com wrote: ** Doug put it best a few weeks back. Leave base development mode for BMC and everything else in best practice mode. Why the need to jump between modes? 9.9 out of 10 times best practice mode will meet all your needs. The other .1 is because BMC wants to make changes to their code in base mode. There are ways to creatively use the different modes. However, there are certain risks. At the end of the day best practice mode and overlays are there as a huge benefit, so use that as an advantage. Jumping between modes will just lead to a lot of issues. Brian -- *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) arslist@ARSLIST.ORG on behalf of Raj ravi6...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:05 PM *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG *Subject:* Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** Thanks everyone for their responses. Spent quite some time reading on posts related to Overlays, BPCU, Developer Studio 7.6.04, etc...and trying to understand what all it means and implies. Here's the situation I am in now(lil' confused), need some advise from experts in here: As mentioned in the original post - *[While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s).]* -User form - recreated by Installer OOTB - converted to overlay - added custom fields...done. -Customizations - We had some customizations around user onboarding process which uses Outer Join between SHR:People and User(SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser). It appeared to be that this form was part of OOTB Remedy in version 5 and in my company, we heavily used this form for customizations and created customer user onboarding process. But looks like in later versions on Remedy BMC dropped this join form. In short, I am on ARS v7.6.04 with User, SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as Overlays and some workflow which I had to modify and re-import/modify as Overlays.(Manually created overlays) Based on the above info, I have couple of questions: 1. Upgrade to ARS v8.1. Is it ok to upgrade to ARS v8.1 with only the above listed forms/workflow as Overlays and rest all are still as Base(Customization Type - Unmodified). As BMC recommends to convert either into Overlays or Custom objects(Ideally). But read some posts where folks encountered issues while using BPCU and had to do manual rework later on. Basically, would like to avoid these issues and manual work and hence do not want to run BPCU/or convert into Overlays or Custom objects. Did anyone had the same situation where only few objects you converted to Overlays Custom but most you left to Base(Unmodified) and have gone through successful upgrade to ARS v8.1(or 8.0, etc) 2. Future Customizations: Now since I have mix of objects some are Overlays and most are still Base(Unmodified), how to decide to do custom development going forward. So e.g., If customization is needed later on - add some workflow to join form SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser(Overlaid) - it is not available in Base Development Mode(BD) so do I just do it in Best Practice Customization(BPC) Mode or convert it from Overlay to Base and go to BD mode and then do development. So,basically it is kind of challenge to juggle between Base Development Mode and Best Practice Customization mode to do development for a same feature. Sorry for the long post, still trying to understand on Overlays... Please advise. Regards, Raj _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail and its attachments
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
LJ, Jason, Brian, Understand you are recommending to convert my objects in Custom or Overlays. But here's the challenge I have - may be my limited knowledge - pl excuse me for that. Read some posts where folks mentioned that they initiated the conversion using BPCU but in some cases it didn't detect correctly and they ended up doing the manual re-import and fixes to get those features working correctly. I certainly would want to avoid that considering the time and resource constraint we have. Here's one such thread I am refering to - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/arslist/unmodified$20to$20custom$20or$20base/arslist/vw_xWirOBLI/1gmLDoErRpgJ Yes, HD5.6 it pretty much of our own now. We have done so much heavy customizations on it. So, most likely may take an year or two to move away or even think about installing fresh ITSM and bring the customizations which we can't get away with. In short, I would like to avoid confusion here to upgrade HD 5.6. We are strictly looking into ARS upgrade for now. and HD5.6 we will treat it as home grown app due to heavy customizations. Now, coming on the situation I am yet on ARS 7.6.04 - Q1)so can I still try to run the upgrade installer(ARS to v8.1) with User, SHR:People, SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser and some workflow as overlays and rest as Base/UnModified? Other potential issue which Misi mentioned( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/arslist/sUyE_aVBpd8)- If this is your only customizations, I suggest that you leave everything in base mode. It is not an option to make OVERLAYs of these only, you need to make all you other stuff CUSTOM. Otherwise your own workflow will not be able to see the OVERLAY-stuff in User/Group. Is it to go either fully Base Development Mode(leaving all objects intact as unmodified) or completely Best Practice Mode(Convert my objects into Overlays or Custom - but again want to avoid the manual work on Customizations ?) Q2) Since I have already created some Overlays, can I just convert those Overlays back to Base again so they will become Unmodified if I decide to go with complete BASE DEVELOPMENT mode.then run upgrade install? Q3) Does mixing modes and having a mix of objects Unmodified and Overlays / Custom could result in issue which Misi mentioned?( Workflow may not detect Overlay stuff?) Please advise. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
I would agree if there was an upgrade path from Help Desk 5.6 to ITSM 8.x. There isn't and while it is probably possible I think the time and effort to upgrade a version that old would be greater than building a new ITSM environment, customizing as required and migrating data (or even better starting with all new data). On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Longwing, Lj llongw...@usgs.gov wrote: ** One 'problem' with it would be if they at some point in the future decide to install a newer version of ITSM...they would then have custom objects with the same names as 'base' objectsbut I don't know enough to know if this is a scenario that needs to be worried about or not. I have seen many posts from people that essentially say 'I plan on staying in base with my custom stuff, and not deal with all of that other overlay stuff'...and that's cool, but they continue to put themselves in front of the wrecking ball that BMC is trying to help all of us avoid by creating this overlay mechanism. On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Jason Miller jason.mil...@gmail.comwrote: ** I agree. I think what is a bit extra confusing in Raj's situation is they have a mix of Help Desk 5.6 and other custom development. While HD 5.6 is technically BMC code at this point Raj's company pretty much owns it (maybe not legally but in practice) and might as well consider it custom. So where to draw the line? SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as mentioned are not AR System core forms but are from ITSM/Help Desk. Since this is an environment you plan on having for a while (if I remember correctly), if it were me I would convert those to custom. The best course might be to do a fresh install of just AR System to get a current list of out of the box forms and workflow. Any object that exists in that fresh system I would verify is base in your existing system. If you customized something in the existing system and it exists in the fresh system verify it was done using overlays. All objects that do not exist in the fresh system should be converted to custom. That will get you synced up with how BMC expects an 8.x system to be layered. LJ, anybody else with overlay experience, does this sound about right? Jason On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Brian Pancia panc...@finityit.comwrote: ** Doug put it best a few weeks back. Leave base development mode for BMC and everything else in best practice mode. Why the need to jump between modes? 9.9 out of 10 times best practice mode will meet all your needs. The other .1 is because BMC wants to make changes to their code in base mode. There are ways to creatively use the different modes. However, there are certain risks. At the end of the day best practice mode and overlays are there as a huge benefit, so use that as an advantage. Jumping between modes will just lead to a lot of issues. Brian -- *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) arslist@ARSLIST.ORG on behalf of Raj ravi6...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:05 PM *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG *Subject:* Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** Thanks everyone for their responses. Spent quite some time reading on posts related to Overlays, BPCU, Developer Studio 7.6.04, etc...and trying to understand what all it means and implies. Here's the situation I am in now(lil' confused), need some advise from experts in here: As mentioned in the original post - *[While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s).]* -User form - recreated by Installer OOTB - converted to overlay - added custom fields...done. -Customizations - We had some customizations around user onboarding process which uses Outer Join between SHR:People and User(SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser). It appeared to be that this form was part of OOTB Remedy in version 5 and in my company, we heavily used this form for customizations and created customer user onboarding process. But looks like in later versions on Remedy BMC dropped this join form. In short, I am on ARS v7.6.04 with User, SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as Overlays and some workflow which I had to modify and re-import/modify as Overlays.(Manually created overlays) Based on the above info, I have couple of questions: 1. Upgrade to ARS v8.1. Is it ok to upgrade to ARS v8.1 with only the above listed forms/workflow as Overlays and rest all are still as Base(Customization Type - Unmodified). As BMC recommends to convert either into Overlays or Custom objects(Ideally). But read some posts where folks encountered issues while using BPCU and had to do manual rework later on. Basically, would like to avoid these issues and manual work and hence do not want to run BPCU
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Upgrading ARS is pretty straight forward compared to the ITSM Suite. You do have the ability to flatten/convert objects to base mode. In 8.1 you can also convert unmodified to custom. I posted about this awhile back. There are some risks with this when patching. If you create a custom form called FormA and BMC has a patch that now has a BMC FormA your form may be lost. If you have good naming conventions this is more than likely not going to happen. The good thing about ARS is you have the flexability to do whatever you want. The bad things is you can do whatever you want. In base mode you will not see your overlays and custom code. That's what base mode is. It allows you to see your base system without customizations, so you can't add a field to an form in Best Practice mode using overlays and then move to Base Mode and add that field to an active link. You would have to be in Best Practice mode. Mixing modes will probably lead to issues. Hopefully, your systems are really well documented. As far as using BPCU tool it's probably not the best approach if there is a huge gap in versions. I would analyze all the customizations to see if you can replace them with out of box functionality and manually bring over the customizations you want. Going fresh with ITSM isn't a bad idea. Most organizations only implement a small set of features the ITSM Suite has to offer. If organizations implemented 100% without customizations they would have a smokin system. Unless I'm doing integrations I try my best to stay away from customizations. I leave ITSM development to BMC and Third Party Vendors that have cool plugins. Don't get me wrong I can develop with the best of them and some times it seems easier to customize/develop, but now I try to look at long term strategic decisions for the business. I have seen more people get upset about the cost of upgrades then I have seen people upset that the ITSM Suite doesn't have abc functionality built in. From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) arslist@ARSLIST.ORG on behalf of Raj ravi6...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 3:21 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** LJ, Jason, Brian, Understand you are recommending to convert my objects in Custom or Overlays. But here's the challenge I have - may be my limited knowledge - pl excuse me for that. Read some posts where folks mentioned that they initiated the conversion using BPCU but in some cases it didn't detect correctly and they ended up doing the manual re-import and fixes to get those features working correctly. I certainly would want to avoid that considering the time and resource constraint we have. Here's one such thread I am refering to - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/arslist/unmodified$20to$20custom$20or$20base/arslist/vw_xWirOBLI/1gmLDoErRpgJ Yes, HD5.6 it pretty much of our own now. We have done so much heavy customizations on it. So, most likely may take an year or two to move away or even think about installing fresh ITSM and bring the customizations which we can't get away with. In short, I would like to avoid confusion here to upgrade HD 5.6. We are strictly looking into ARS upgrade for now. and HD5.6 we will treat it as home grown app due to heavy customizations. Now, coming on the situation I am yet on ARS 7.6.04 - Q1)so can I still try to run the upgrade installer(ARS to v8.1) with User, SHR:People, SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser and some workflow as overlays and rest as Base/UnModified? Other potential issue which Misi mentioned(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/arslist/sUyE_aVBpd8)- If this is your only customizations, I suggest that you leave everything in base mode. It is not an option to make OVERLAYs of these only, you need to make all you other stuff CUSTOM. Otherwise your own workflow will not be able to see the OVERLAY-stuff in User/Group. Is it to go either fully Base Development Mode(leaving all objects intact as unmodified) or completely Best Practice Mode(Convert my objects into Overlays or Custom - but again want to avoid the manual work on Customizations ?) Q2) Since I have already created some Overlays, can I just convert those Overlays back to Base again so they will become Unmodified if I decide to go with complete BASE DEVELOPMENT mode.then run upgrade install? Q3) Does mixing modes and having a mix of objects Unmodified and Overlays / Custom could result in issue which Misi mentioned?( Workflow may not detect Overlay stuff?) Please advise. _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Thanks everyone for their responses. Spent quite some time reading on posts related to Overlays, BPCU, Developer Studio 7.6.04, etc...and trying to understand what all it means and implies. Here's the situation I am in now(lil' confused), need some advise from experts in here: As mentioned in the original post - *[While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s).]* -User form - recreated by Installer OOTB - converted to overlay - added custom fields...done. -Customizations - We had some customizations around user onboarding process which uses Outer Join between SHR:People and User(SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser). It appeared to be that this form was part of OOTB Remedy in version 5 and in my company, we heavily used this form for customizations and created customer user onboarding process. But looks like in later versions on Remedy BMC dropped this join form. In short, I am on ARS v7.6.04 with User, SHR:People and SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser as Overlays and some workflow which I had to modify and re-import/modify as Overlays.(Manually created overlays) Based on the above info, I have couple of questions: 1. Upgrade to ARS v8.1. Is it ok to upgrade to ARS v8.1 with only the above listed forms/workflow as Overlays and rest all are still as Base(Customization Type - Unmodified). As BMC recommends to convert either into Overlays or Custom objects(Ideally). But read some posts where folks encountered issues while using BPCU and had to do manual rework later on. Basically, would like to avoid these issues and manual work and hence do not want to run BPCU/or convert into Overlays or Custom objects. Did anyone had the same situation where only few objects you converted to Overlays Custom but most you left to Base(Unmodified) and have gone through successful upgrade to ARS v8.1(or 8.0, etc) 2. Future Customizations: Now since I have mix of objects some are Overlays and most are still Base(Unmodified), how to decide to do custom development going forward. So e.g., If customization is needed later on - add some workflow to join form SHRCFG:OuterJoinPeopleUser(Overlaid) - it is not available in Base Development Mode(BD) so do I just do it in Best Practice Customization(BPC) Mode or convert it from Overlay to Base and go to BD mode and then do development. So,basically it is kind of challenge to juggle between Base Development Mode and Best Practice Customization mode to do development for a same feature. Sorry for the long post, still trying to understand on Overlays... Please advise. Regards, Raj ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
I'm using 8.1 in development (planning on upgrading my user testing server soon) and the WUT is as indispensable as ever. Thanks, Shawn Pierson Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Rick Phillips Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:52 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** WUT 7.6.04 and 8.1, aye! (especially for exporting data-all columns all rows). rp On 8/28/2013 3:15 PM, Jason Miller wrote: ** 1. Correct. This really doesn't change with or without overlays. This is the same as it has been since I started working with Remedy v4. * SIDE NOTE: This is also why I was very adamant on calling BS when a BMC person (or two) try to convince our organization that by using overlays customizations are now configurations. The impact, maintenance, testing and documentation needs do not change with overlays. Sure BMC code will not intentionally change your overlay or custom object like in the past when there was only one object layer but it all still has to work together. 1. There was an oversight in 7.6.04 Dev Studio where the option to convert from unmodified to custom was left out. There is a thread from last year where Doug Mueller explained and gave some options. I would think it has been added to 7.6.04 in a patch but if not my recommendation is to upgrade Dev Studio to 8.1 since you will need to do that at some point. You will then have the option to convert unmodified to custom before the server upgrade. 2. If I remember correctly the rapp service was called via run process. You could pull a full def file of the server (or multiple by object type) and search for 'rappsvc' in a text editor to find the objects that call it. Chances are since you don't have SLA there are probably only a handful of places that use it and you won't likely miss it. I seem to remember there was one or two things about HD pre 6 that used it outside of SLA. 3. That sounds reasonable. Open Windows was one of the most frequent uses for macros. It has been so long since I have done this process that what you describe sounds familiar :) 4. Technically they are buttons but you will have to adjust how they are presented in the view. If you create a Vertical Navigation field you can click Click here to attach orphaned items. This will show your menu bar buttons. If you want to make them individual buttons without a Nav field I am pretty sure there is a way but can't completely remember right now. * Ok, this was bugging me so I figured out how to do it (and it is super simple). Select the menu field from the Outline list, under Display Properties change Display Type from Menu to Button. 1. The User Tool is not phased out for AR System 7.6.04, just ITSM 7.6.04. You can still use WUT with a 7.6.04 AR System Server and non-ITSM applications. This configuration will be supported until 7.6.04 falls out of support. This is why we are sticking with ARS 7.6.04 for our Help Desk/custom environment and not moving to ARS 8.x. I am willing to be you will be fine with WUT 7.6.04 and AR System Server 8,1. It is not a supported configuration but it will work. All of us who are using WUT 7.6.04 with 8.0/8.1 raise our hands. .-. |U|_ _ | | /) (\ | | / / \ \ | | / / .-. \ \| |/ /.'`.' \ `' .' .---. | / `--. `' | \ / | | | | Jason On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ravi ravi6...@gmail.commailto:ravi6...@gmail.com wrote: ** Thanks again! Jason. Really appreciate your help. You ROCK!!! Based on your response, I have few more questions if you don't mind: 1. So, I assume for the Customizations I recreated on ARS v7.6.04, I just have to document them thoroughly and then the only way to identify issues moving forward is to test thoroughly after upgrading to ARS v8.1 and at the same time referring to the customizations doc to make sure they were carried over. 2. Converting to Custom - when I ran upgrade from ARS v5.1.2 to v7.6.04(5.1.26.37.17.6.04) - noticed that all the custom apps/features we had in v5.1.2 were carried over to v7.6.04. Now, they appear as Unmodified Objects and when I right click on them, it only gives me an option to Convert to Overlay but not to Custom. Or do I just leave them as it is as Unmodified and then run upgrade to v8.1?(hope I won't lose all these custom apps/features) 3. RAPP Service - Is there a way to identify if we are using RAPP Service in our environment, I tried to look for form for e - SHR:Rapp..., etc but didn't find any. Basically we have only HD5.6(ITSM 5.6) and ARS5.1.2, no other ITSM apps like SLA App, etc - we have our own Custom SLA App. 4. Macros - we do have lot of ALs using Run Macro actions, so I understand they will need to be converted
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
1. Correct. This really doesn't change with or without overlays. This is the same as it has been since I started working with Remedy v4. - SIDE NOTE: This is also why I was very adamant on calling BS when a BMC person (or two) try to convince our organization that by using overlays customizations are now configurations. The impact, maintenance, testing and documentation needs do not change with overlays. Sure BMC code will not intentionally change your overlay or custom object like in the past when there was only one object layer but it all still has to work together. 2. There was an oversight in 7.6.04 Dev Studio where the option to convert from unmodified to custom was left out. There is a thread from last year where Doug Mueller explained and gave some options. I would think it has been added to 7.6.04 in a patch but if not my recommendation is to upgrade Dev Studio to 8.1 since you will need to do that at some point. You will then have the option to convert unmodified to custom before the server upgrade. 3. If I remember correctly the rapp service was called via run process. You could pull a full def file of the server (or multiple by object type) and search for 'rappsvc' in a text editor to find the objects that call it. Chances are since you don't have SLA there are probably only a handful of places that use it and you won't likely miss it. I seem to remember there was one or two things about HD pre 6 that used it outside of SLA. 4. That sounds reasonable. Open Windows was one of the most frequent uses for macros. It has been so long since I have done this process that what you describe sounds familiar :) 5. Technically they are buttons but you will have to adjust how they are presented in the view. If you create a Vertical Navigation field you can click Click here to attach orphaned items. This will show your menu bar buttons. If you want to make them individual buttons without a Nav field I am pretty sure there is a way but can't completely remember right now. - Ok, this was bugging me so I figured out how to do it (and it is super simple). Select the menu field from the Outline list, under Display Properties change Display Type from Menu to Button. 6. The User Tool is not phased out for AR System 7.6.04, just ITSM 7.6.04. You can still use WUT with a 7.6.04 AR System Server and non-ITSM applications. This configuration will be supported until 7.6.04 falls out of support. This is why we are sticking with ARS 7.6.04 for our Help Desk/custom environment and not moving to ARS 8.x. I am willing to be you will be fine with WUT 7.6.04 and AR System Server 8,1. It is not a supported configuration but it will work. All of us who are using WUT 7.6.04 with 8.0/8.1 raise our hands. .-. |U|_ _ | | /) (\ | | / / \ \ | | / / .-. \ \| |/ /.'`.' \ `' .' .---. | / `--. `' | \ / | | | | Jason On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ravi ravi6...@gmail.com wrote: ** Thanks again! Jason. Really appreciate your help. You ROCK!!! Based on your response, I have few more questions if you don't mind: 1. So, I assume for the Customizations I recreated on ARS v7.6.04, I just have to document them thoroughly and then the only way to identify issues moving forward is to test thoroughly after upgrading to ARS v8.1 and at the same time referring to the customizations doc to make sure they were carried over. 2. Converting to Custom - when I ran upgrade from ARS v5.1.2 to v7.6.04(5.1.26.37.17.6.04) - noticed that all the custom apps/features we had in v5.1.2 were carried over to v7.6.04. Now, they appear as Unmodified Objects and when I right click on them, it only gives me an option to Convert to Overlay but not to Custom. Or do I just leave them as it is as Unmodified and then run upgrade to v8.1?(hope I won't lose all these custom apps/features) 3. RAPP Service - Is there a way to identify if we are using RAPP Service in our environment, I tried to look for form for e - SHR:Rapp..., etc but didn't find any. Basically we have only HD5.6(ITSM 5.6) and ARS5.1.2, no other ITSM apps like SLA App, etc - we have our own Custom SLA App. 4. Macros - we do have lot of ALs using Run Macro actions, so I understand they will need to be converted to AL. I see the option is available in Admin Tool v5.1. When I convert Macros into ALs, it created a new AL - Run Macro action is replaced with Open Window, etc...so do I DISABLE the old AL which had macro? 5. Menu Bar- we do have lot of customizations around menu bar, so I understand I will need to create corresponding buttons and associate to them. 6. MidTier vs User Tool - Will be going through the doc to identify and note down the
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
WUT 7.6.04 and 8.1, aye! (especially for exporting data-all columns all rows). rp On 8/28/2013 3:15 PM, Jason Miller wrote: ** 1. Correct. This really doesn't change with or without overlays. This is the same as it has been since I started working with Remedy v4. * SIDE NOTE: This is also why I was very adamant on calling BS when a BMC person (or two) try to convince our organization that by using overlays customizations are now configurations. The impact, maintenance, testing and documentation needs do not change with overlays. Sure BMC code will not intentionally change your overlay or custom object like in the past when there was only one object layer but it all still has to work together. 2. There was an oversight in 7.6.04 Dev Studio where the option to convert from unmodified to custom was left out. There is a thread from last year where Doug Mueller explained and gave some options. I would think it has been added to 7.6.04 in a patch but if not my recommendation is to upgrade Dev Studio to 8.1 since you will need to do that at some point. You will then have the option to convert unmodified to custom before the server upgrade. 3. If I remember correctly the rapp service was called via run process. You could pull a full def file of the server (or multiple by object type) and search for 'rappsvc' in a text editor to find the objects that call it. Chances are since you don't have SLA there are probably only a handful of places that use it and you won't likely miss it. I seem to remember there was one or two things about HD pre 6 that used it outside of SLA. 4. That sounds reasonable. Open Windows was one of the most frequent uses for macros. It has been so long since I have done this process that what you describe sounds familiar :) 5. Technically they are buttons but you will have to adjust how they are presented in the view. If you create a Vertical Navigation field you can click Click here to attach orphaned items. This will show your menu bar buttons. If you want to make them individual buttons without a Nav field I am pretty sure there is a way but can't completely remember right now. * Ok, this was bugging me so I figured out how to do it (and it is super simple). Select the menu field from the Outline list, under Display Properties change Display Type from Menu to Button. 6. The User Tool is not phased out for AR System 7.6.04, just ITSM 7.6.04. You can still use WUT with a 7.6.04 AR System Server and non-ITSM applications. This configuration will be supported until 7.6.04 falls out of support. This is why we are sticking with ARS 7.6.04 for our Help Desk/custom environment and not moving to ARS 8.x. I am willing to be you will be fine with WUT 7.6.04 and AR System Server 8,1. It is not a supported configuration but it will work. All of us who are using WUT 7.6.04 with 8.0/8.1 raise our hands. .-. |U|_ _ | | /) (\ | | / / \ \ | | / / .-. \ \| |/ /.'`.' \ `' .' .---. | / `--. `' | \ / | | | | Jason On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ravi ravi6...@gmail.com mailto:ravi6...@gmail.com wrote: ** Thanks again! Jason. Really appreciate your help. You ROCK!!! Based on your response, I have few more questions if you don't mind: 1. So, I assume for the Customizations I recreated on ARS v7.6.04, I just have to document them thoroughly and then the only way to identify issues moving forward is to test thoroughly after upgrading to ARS v8.1 and at the same time referring to the customizations doc to make sure they were carried over. 2. Converting to Custom - when I ran upgrade from ARS v5.1.2 to v7.6.04(5.1.26.37.17.6.04) - noticed that all the custom apps/features we had in v5.1.2 were carried over to v7.6.04. Now, they appear as Unmodified Objects and when I right click on them, it only gives me an option to Convert to Overlay but not to Custom. Or do I just leave them as it is as Unmodified and then run upgrade to v8.1?(hope I won't lose all these custom apps/features) 3. RAPP Service - Is there a way to identify if we are
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Hi everybody. Raj and I discussed off line a little more and I would like to share that for the benefit of everybody on the List. ** Glad I can help. It sounds like you are on the right track. 1. Your understanding is correct. The one caveat is if you have a customization that is dependant on a something that changes in Base mode then it could affect your customization in the Overlay. A few examples - If a field is deleted by the installer that your Overlay references. Say the User form has field XYZ created by BMC and you have built custom workflow that references that field. If BMC decides XYZ is no longer needed and removes it then it would impact your Overlay. I have not encountered this scenario yet so I am not sure exactly what would happen. I assume your workflow would just have a broken field reference in it and not work as expected. - A permissions change in Base. Similar to the first bullet if BMC changes the permission to (configuration) form where you have custom workflow referencing it can impact how your Overlay/Custom workflow behaves. 2. Correct. You never have to create an Overlay for anything. In the case of an old version of HelpDesk you will not be installing any further BMC supplied updates to it so at this point I would consider it a custom app that your organization is solely responsible for. If your organization's long-term path is to stay on HD 5.6 and continue to upgrade ARS I recommend converting everything that was built in-house or that BMC no longer supports to Custom. This will make sure you stay aligned with BMC's direction regarding how ARS development is supposed to be done. One thing I know will break on a pre 6.0 HD app is the rapp service. The rapp service will not be able to connect to an AR Server = 6.0. In my past experiences we have found this to be acceptable because we were not actively using workflow that uses the rapp services. Pre 6.0 SLA app is dependant on the rapp service as well as a few things in HD. If you find you do not need the rapp service you can disable any workflow that calls it. 3. There is a white paper that explains the differences between the User Tool and Mid Tier. I don't think there is an updated version of this document for 8.x because that is when BMC dropped support for WUT. I think for the most part our existing forms would work fine in MT. Some of our form heavily use the Menu Bar (and the buttons that go with menus) on the top of the form. We would have to update our designs and move those buttons to navigation fields or individual buttons. This isn't too bad because you can reassociate where/how the Menu Bar buttons are located. Besides the Menu Bar we would just need to review each form to make sure it looks ok in a browser and verify the core functionality of a form. I occasionally open an old form in MT and it is minor things that don't work. Some of the forms would just have to save/search buttons or the web toolbar added, etc. Macros would be another thing you may have embedded in workflow that will not work in MT. Since our Help Desk is version 6 (which had MT access in mind) and we stopped using macros in our custom development many, many years ago this isn't an issue for us. At one point there was a tool that could convert Active Links that used macros into the appropriate actions. Similar to macros we have a number of scripts (.bat, / .vbs) to automate things that are called within the User Tool. These will work differently when called from a browser so we would probably have to make some changes here. Do you mind if I post this response to the ARSList? I think there are others that would find value in the answers? Jason On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Ravi ravi6...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jason, Really, appreciate your response. Looks like your management is supporting well and is line with what you/your team intent to do. So in my case, we are still planning on upgrading ARS from v7.6.04 to v8.1 - in that case : 1. Best Practice Mode/Customization to Core forms - As you suggested and what I understood from other responses, I have created overlays and recreating customizations on overlays with the intent that these customizations will be carried over to v8.1 and I do not have to do the manual work of recreating Customizations again...is my understanding right? 2. HD 5.6 - We do have heavy customizations on HelpDesk, since we not planning on upgrading ITSM anytime soon(as most likely we might just introduce OOTB ITSM and customize later on). So while on v7.6.04 - do I have to create overlay for HPD 5.6, I don't - right ? (as basically we are not even sure if this older ITSM HD5.6 would even be compatible with v8.1 ARS and work but hoping that it will be functional, although we know that BMC is not going to support it). Also, if we were to customize HD 5.6 later after going to ARS v8.1 - do we just do it in Base
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Thanks again! Jason. Really appreciate your help. You ROCK!!! Based on your response, I have few more questions if you don't mind: 1. So, I assume for the Customizations I recreated on ARS v7.6.04, I just have to document them thoroughly and then the only way to identify issues moving forward is to test thoroughly after upgrading to ARS v8.1 and at the same time referring to the customizations doc to make sure they were carried over. 2. Converting to Custom - when I ran upgrade from ARS v5.1.2 to v7.6.04(5.1.26.37.17.6.04) - noticed that all the custom apps/features we had in v5.1.2 were carried over to v7.6.04. Now, they appear as Unmodified Objects and when I right click on them, it only gives me an option to Convert to Overlay but not to Custom. Or do I just leave them as it is as Unmodified and then run upgrade to v8.1?(hope I won't lose all these custom apps/features) 3. RAPP Service - Is there a way to identify if we are using RAPP Service in our environment, I tried to look for form for e - SHR:Rapp..., etc but didn't find any. Basically we have only HD5.6(ITSM 5.6) and ARS5.1.2, no other ITSM apps like SLA App, etc - we have our own Custom SLA App. 4. Macros - we do have lot of ALs using Run Macro actions, so I understand they will need to be converted to AL. I see the option is available in Admin Tool v5.1. When I convert Macros into ALs, it created a new AL - Run Macro action is replaced with Open Window, etc...so do I DISABLE the old AL which had macro? 5. Menu Bar- we do have lot of customizations around menu bar, so I understand I will need to create corresponding buttons and associate to them. 6. MidTier vs User Tool - Will be going through the doc to identify and note down the important points. BMC phased out User Tool after v7.6.04 but I have seen some posts - Susan, and other reported that User Tool(v7.6) is still functional. Do you think, I can use that after going to v8.1? On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Jason Miller jason.mil...@gmail.comwrote: ** Hi everybody. Raj and I discussed off line a little more and I would like to share that for the benefit of everybody on the List. ** Glad I can help. It sounds like you are on the right track. 1. Your understanding is correct. The one caveat is if you have a customization that is dependant on a something that changes in Base mode then it could affect your customization in the Overlay. A few examples - If a field is deleted by the installer that your Overlay references. Say the User form has field XYZ created by BMC and you have built custom workflow that references that field. If BMC decides XYZ is no longer needed and removes it then it would impact your Overlay. I have not encountered this scenario yet so I am not sure exactly what would happen. I assume your workflow would just have a broken field reference in it and not work as expected. - A permissions change in Base. Similar to the first bullet if BMC changes the permission to (configuration) form where you have custom workflow referencing it can impact how your Overlay/Custom workflow behaves. 2. Correct. You never have to create an Overlay for anything. In the case of an old version of HelpDesk you will not be installing any further BMC supplied updates to it so at this point I would consider it a custom app that your organization is solely responsible for. If your organization's long-term path is to stay on HD 5.6 and continue to upgrade ARS I recommend converting everything that was built in-house or that BMC no longer supports to Custom. This will make sure you stay aligned with BMC's direction regarding how ARS development is supposed to be done. One thing I know will break on a pre 6.0 HD app is the rapp service. The rapp service will not be able to connect to an AR Server = 6.0. In my past experiences we have found this to be acceptable because we were not actively using workflow that uses the rapp services. Pre 6.0 SLA app is dependant on the rapp service as well as a few things in HD. If you find you do not need the rapp service you can disable any workflow that calls it. 3. There is a white paper that explains the differences between the User Tool and Mid Tier. I don't think there is an updated version of this document for 8.x because that is when BMC dropped support for WUT. I think for the most part our existing forms would work fine in MT. Some of our form heavily use the Menu Bar (and the buttons that go with menus) on the top of the form. We would have to update our designs and move those buttons to navigation fields or individual buttons. This isn't too bad because you can reassociate where/how the Menu Bar buttons are located. Besides the Menu Bar we would just need to review each form to make sure it looks ok in a browser and verify the core functionality of a form. I occasionally open an old form in MT and it is minor things that don't work.
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
For backward compatibility of our ITSM(HD 5.6) and existing customizations on User form, we analyzed and decided to create those Custom fields on newer version. To do that what is the recommended approach - Do I have to create overlay for User form and then modify the overlay in Best Customization mode or I just go to Base Development mode and start adding the fields? Also, at what step do I use BPCU(do I need to use it at all or I can skip it?) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
For backward compatibility of our ITSM(HD 5.6) and existing customizations on User form, we analyzed and decided to create those Custom fields on newer version. To do that what is the recommended approach - Do I have to create overlay for User form and then modify the overlay in Best Customization mode or I just go to Base Development mode and start adding the fields? Also, at what step do I use BPCU(do I need to use it at all or I can skip it?) On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:47:17 AM UTC-7, Raj wrote: ** Hi All, We are in the process of upgrading ARS from v5.1.2 to v8.1. We also have HD v5.6 which at this point are not thinking of upgrading as we have heavy customization. Now coming on to ARS, we also have some customizations on our core forms. While running the upgrade installer to v7.6.04(from v7.1), we had to delete User and Group forms(without this step upg installer was failing) and installer recreated them again. During this process we lost customizations to User Group form(s). At this point, we are still re-visiting the customizations we have to the core forms to see if we really need them. Based on the above scenarios I have couple of questions: 1. Do we still need to run BPCU to convert pre-v7.6.04 objects into overlays[as we are only upgrading ARS but not ITSM(HD)] ? 2. What would overlays help us with in our scenario, as we have ARS +ITSM (HD5.6 only) ? Thanks again, Raj _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Best Approach: Go to best practice customization mode Create Form Overlay Create View Overlay on which you have planned to update/add the fields Create Field Overlay if modifying existing field, If not, Add custom field that you need to From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSLis t) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 3:52 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** For backward compatibility of our ITSM(HD 5.6) and existing customizations on User form, we analyzed and decided to create those Custom fields on newer version. To do that what is the recommended approach - Do I have to create overlay for User form and then modify the overlay in Best Customization mode or I just go to Base Development mode and start adding the fields? Also, at what step do I use BPCU(do I need to use it at all or I can skip it?) _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Exactly what my recommendation would have been for core forms. Regarding BPCU, it is designed for newer versions of ITSM (at least I don't think it goes back to 5.x). I don't see any value in your situation. It sounds like you know the handful of customizations to recreate on a handful of core forms. I would just create overlays manually. Doing this to core forms will allow patches and upgrade to go smoothly in the future. About HD 5.6 is it so far out of support you basically own anything that has been or will be done to it. I do not see value in using overlays with these old BMC apps. We have Help Desk 6 that has been upgrade from AR 7.0 to 7.6.04 and we do not use Best Practice mode with this environment. Ideally we would convert the customizations to core forms to overlays but we do not intend on keeping this environment long-term. Jason On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Hullule, Kiran kiran_hull...@bmc.comwrote: ** Best Approach: Go to best practice customization mode Create Form Overlay Create View Overlay on which you have planned to update/add the fields Create Field Overlay if modifying existing field, If not, Add custom field that you need to ** ** ** ** *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSLis t) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *Raj *Sent:* Wednesday, August 14, 2013 3:52 PM *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG *Subject:* Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade? ** ** ** For backward compatibility of our ITSM(HD 5.6) and existing customizations on User form, we analyzed and decided to create those Custom fields on newer version. To do that what is the recommended approach - Do I have to create overlay for User form and then modify the overlay in Best Customization mode or I just go to Base Development mode and start adding the fields? Also, at what step do I use BPCU(do I need to use it at all or I can skip it?) _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ _ARSlist: Where the Answers Are and have been for 20 years_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years
Re: Using BPCU while ARS Upgrade?
Thanks Jason and Kiran. Your response clarified lot of things. We are currently focusing on ARS Upgrade only, so as upgrading our heavily customized HD 5.6 is a big challenge but eventually we will get there or we might just start fresh with newer Service Desk. As you suggested, I am just going to manually create the overlays for core forms where we have customization. Jason, BTW, If my understanding it correct then you must have used the best practice mode only initially when you upgraded from ARS7.0 to ARS7.6.04 and that is again only to convert the core customized forms into overlays? On day to day basis you just used Development Mode but again when you have to customize your core forms again, do you switch modes and create overlays again? Also, if you would have created Custom Objects do you need to convert them into Base Objects if you were to upgrade to v8.1 or so... Pl excuse my limited knowledge on Overlays.:-) Thanks again! ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years