Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
Gentlemen I agree with you when it comes to this issue. I also agree it would be a good long drawn out trial ---the problem I have at this point is I live in AP and would not send my child to AP public schools at this time. We really need to be taking on the task of fixing the problems in the schools that we have now -getting the state out of our public schools, changing the dropout rates and pulling up the grades of our children. My child is presently in the third grade at Hope Academy Charter and I am researching Charter and private schools at this time because when she graduates the 8th grade (5 years from now) I will not be sending her to AP public schools and that is basically the concensus of parents in HACS. I have even spoken to several parents who have children in Thurgood and Bradley who would love to find a way out of sending their child to the middle or high school. So even though it is morally wrong for the commissioner to segregate the schools I don't know how many people would stand with you and fight the issue knowing the problems we have in AP schools. - Original Message From: rook782 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:19:43 AM Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late Also a very very good post. Tom I think that if you ever wanted to do the one thing in your life that could truly help Asbury Park, this might be the answer. I think many would support you in this endeavor. And kinda knowing you, you would not care what the opposition thought. How much money would something like this cost to have a case like this fought and won? I know this would be just an estimate. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com, justifiedright justifiedright@ ... wrote: Oak it looks like we ended up agreeing in the end. I have no problm with choices people make. Go to private school, move to a good public district, etc. I support all of it. I do have a problem with government screwing things up by injecting themselves into it, which is what wrecked APHS - not parental choices. When buying a house, I absolutely avoided Asbury Park and the sending district because the High School is now segregated. I know that many, many other people did the same. That wasn't the case before the RBR ruling. I went to APHS with the sons of doctors, lawyers and millinaire businessmen. Yes, having that demographic was helpful to the poorer kids. That's gone thanks to the ruling. Look at real estate listings. Many of them list private schools on the listing so as not to list APHS. I laugh and cry everytime I see it. Since Avon no longer goes to APHS, their real estate has skyrocketed, now topping $1 Million on the MEDIAN house sale, and holding steady in this downturn. Everything changed when the Commissioner ruled that RBR having a better music program than Asbury Park is more important than whether a black kid goes to a segregated school. Read the decision that Mario linked. That was the ruling. It's the most bigoted, racist piece of government work I've seen in my lifetime, and it is shamelessly ignored. It's ignored because those with the political power in the area benefit from the ruling (like Avon); those without the power suffer from it (Asbury). Just imagine the classic busing issue: If a primarily white school in the area was suddenly going to be filled with poor black kids from Asbury, people would go berserk. There would be all sorts of lawsuits to stop it, with claims of government interference, social engineering, and claims that the school's natural demographic should be preserved. That ruling by the Commissioner is exactly the same thing with the colors reversed. The NATURAL DEMOGRAPHIC of APHS was racially and economically diversified, just as Ocean Township is now. The ruling destroyed that by busing the white kids past Asbury Park to another public school in Little Silver. Who is going to file the the Federal Civil Rights lawsuit claiming de facto segregation (can anyone claim that wasn't the result of the ruling with a straight face)? Are the white parents who are avoiding APHS going to do it? No. The poor black parents? I don't think so. AP Board of Ed? No, too busy gossiping and in fighting to tackle something so serious and important. If APHS was naturally segregated by race, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. Since it is racially segregateed by the government with busing to another public school, I'm confident my objection is on the moral high ground, even if I stand alone. Standing alone though, I'm starting to feel like I don't care anymore either. The state can keep the school segregated, Asbury Park Board of Ed (Bored of Ed?) can keep taking the Abbott hush money and not challenge the segregation ruling, and none of it is going to hurt me. So why
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
Research has shown that when Black middle class parents pull their children out of the school system, it is doomed to failure.? Look at the Birmingham school system.? That is exactly what is going on there.? Black middle class parents need to be reassured that their children will receive the best possible education at the existing schools.? -Original Message- From: oakdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:11 am Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late . My child is presently in the third grade at Hope Academy Charter and I am researching Charter and private schools at this time because when she graduates the 8th grade (5 years from now) I will not be sending her to AP public schools a,,, you and the others have made a statement. So what is the next step today and in 5 years - which will be tomorrow. Right now you have this curious little mind (not yours, your childs) who hears and sees a ton of things and has to sort them out. Luckily, she has you as a concerned parent trying to guide her along an ugly trail and to do her right. Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/21/2007 11:31:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com) , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research has shown that when Black middle class parents pull their children out of the school system, it is doomed to failure.? Look at the Birmingham school system.? That is exactly what is going on there.? Black middle class parents need to be reassured that their children will receive the best possible education at the existing schools.? Good note. You can't blame it on the lack of white students. But today, we all want the best for our kids and we expect the school to provide the base 8 hours/day or longer. So we blame the school and the teachers. I sympathize with parents wanting the best for their children, especially since the information out there can be confusing. I don't know the answers, but the following caught my attention a while back: _Ohio Goes After Charter Schools That Are Failing - New York Times_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/us/08charter.html?hp) Ohio became a test tube for the nation’s charter school movement during a decade...when a wide-open authorization system and plenty of government seed money led to the schools’ explosive proliferation. But their record has been spotty. This year, the state’s school report card gave more than half of Ohio’s 328 charter schools a D or an F. == _http://www.nypost.com/seven/11072007/news/regionalnews/charter_schools_going_ uncharted_872824.htm_ (http://www.nypost.com/seven/11072007/news/regionalnews/charter_schools_going_uncharted_872824.htm) _Click here: Charter Schools Lag, Study Finds - washingtonpost.com_ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/22/AR2006082201030.html) _Click here: charter schools - Google News_ (http://news.google.com/news?as_q=svnum=10as_scoring=rned=tusrec=0btnG=Google+Searchas_epq=charter+scho olsas_oq=as_eq=as_drrb=qas_qdr=as_mind=9as_minm=10as_maxd=8as_maxm=11 as_nsrc=as_nloc=as_occt=any) Seems that if firemer's research is right, (Research has shown that when Black middle class parents pull their children out of the school system, it is doomed to failure. ), then we have a lose/lose situation. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/21/2007 10:16:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: we care because we've seen blow by for 40 years Wow...In my experience, right on the money with 40 years, 1967. A college student who accepted a job teaching in Asbury Park was entitled to a 10% reduction on their federal college loans for each year they remained there up to 50%. Under the Higher Education Act of 1965, Asbury Park was, even then, considered a special inner-city district requiring special incentives to attract teachers. The starting salary in the late 60s, $5,200, was about 25% lower than surrounding districts. Additionally, I was hired under a separate federal grant which the BOE got at the last minute for additional English teachers to teach remedial reading to its high school students. The need was so great, and the regular English Department so overwhelmed by the non-college tract, that a separate department under a Mr. Cernanski was set up just for the remedial reading program. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/20/2007 4:59:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might recall my biggest gripe (we all have one) is how Asbury Park High School was segregated by race back in 1996. As I recall, the biggest step to virtual segregation was back in the 60's when OTHS opened. I taught there shortly after, and the system was still reeling from the racial imbalance created then. The 1996 decision about Red Bank's music program caused problems for all local school districts, white suburban ones included, who had discontinued or severely cut back on their music programs. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/20/2007 5:41:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The decision regarding RBR had minimal impact on other school districts. Not so minimal if you worked, as I did, at one of the schools which lost students to RBR during the 1990's declining enrollment period. The additional loss of students who wanted an enriched arts program had a ripple effect across the curriculum: budgets, staffing, loss of other elective programs, RIFs, et al. It may not have been a racial imbalance problem, but it wasn't minimal. Unintended consequences: Can't blame parents who wanted full arts instruction, or RBR for taking the lead, going against the grain by upgrading their program rather than cutting it. In the worst decision ever made by AP, the Board of Ed turned OT down. So they built their own high school. That could be. But I suspect that OT would have eventually built their own school anyway. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/20/2007 6:45:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was extremely minimal. I worked at a school where it wasn't minimal to any of us. Not going to get inot some back and forth with you, because the issue is too important to subject it to that. I'm not interested in any back and forth with you either. So we agree to disagree. Not sure what the issue is. But I don't need a yearbook. I taught at APHS when the racial imbalance had a profound influence, and I taught at a regional district where the impact of RBR's arts programs was the subject of too many excruciatingly long board, parents, and faculty meetings: Instruction suffered at both. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/20/2007 7:16:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Go complain to the Katrina victims that your basement once flooded after it rained. That's about what you are doing now by comparing the complete excision of the white race from APHS You're missing my point with that insidious analogy. The '96 decision to allow students from other districts to attend RBR _http://www.state.nj.us/education/legal/sboe/1997/asbpk.pdf_ (http://www.state.nj.us/education/legal/sboe/1997/asbpk.pdf)was not the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back in AP. to a couple of late board of education meetings over parental anxiety at Monmouth Regional. It wasn't Monmouth Regional. And it wasn't parental anxiety. For the BOE, It was tuition money that went to RBR; for the staff, loss of other elective programs and jobs; for angry parents, why we didn't offer enhanced programs regardless of cost (as opposed to taxpayers without school-age children). It's exactly thinking like that which hides the severity of what the kids in Asbury Park are going through because of that decision - racial segregation. Of course you live there and I don't, so if nothing continues to get done about it, it's not my kids that suffer, its yours. So go ahead and think what you want about it. Why should I care? If you're trying to label me as insensitive to racial issues, you're way off base. Quite the opposite. To put it bluntly, I believe white flight, which started way before that RBR decision, caused many of our problems here. Your issue is an oversimplification. I had maybe two or three whites in my classes at APHS way before 1996. And I've never regretted not having fled from Asbury Park. So let's just agree that Asbury Park's schools need a dedicated BOE, administration, and faculty, and look forward to support those who fit that bill. Happy Thanksgiving **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
Re: [AsburyPark] Re: Van Zandt's School Music - We're a bit late
In a message dated 11/20/2007 7:09:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: how about analyzing the population shift in general over that period. ... AP has had the OPPORTUNITY with over 1 billion in state aid to build a superior program but failed for one reason or the other. Skip the race issue. No reason a single race school can't excel. You don't need white kids to make the rest smarter. Good points. ll kids have the SAME opportunity for a HIGHER level of education/programs offered i the speciality schools which, as you pointed out, IS NOT open to all residents. You have to apply and hope your kid didn't f-up along the way. A slippery slope with that one - Doesn't M.A.S.T. also have a application procedure? Entry tests? Otherwise how do you choose? Make all the schools strict and fund more programs and enforce strict policies as to learning and discipline instead of letting kids skate along? Parent responsibility is somewhere in there I hope The issue has nothing to do with race. I It shouldn't. Unfortunately, it does. But I think our country, as a whole, has come a long way. Still a way to go. Happy Thanksgiving **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301)
