Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? My thoughts on a forum are this.1. It's an idea that makes my skin crawl. To me, having blind people come into (any) forum and ask blind people questions is screaming 'freak show' at me. What do I mean by that...I mean that it, to me, sounds like it's making exhibits of blind people for others to poke and prod at under the guise of 'learning'. It isa godawful idea, really. It'sno, just no.I will tell you what'll happen, you'll get a handful of people who will be genuine, then you'll get a lot of people who will troll and pick fights, et cetera.EDIT: I can vouch for what Diego said, same thing happened to me, there was a clear, clear gap between the sighted and blind kids really. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436342/#p436342 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? My thoughts on a forum are this.1. It's an idea that makes my skin crawl. To me, having blind people come into (any) forum and ask blind people questions is screaming 'freak show' at me. What do I mean by that...I mean that it, to me, sounds like it's making exhibits of blind people for others to poke and prod at under the guise of 'learning'. It isa godawful idea, really. It'sno, just no.I will tell you what'll happen, you'll get a handful of people who will be genuine, then you'll get a lot of people who will troll and pick fights, et cetera. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436342/#p436342 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? My thoughts on a forum are this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436342/#p436342 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I do not have much experience to speak of this, but come on:My school where I was originally studying was created to serve blind people, then integrating people with vision.When I studied, I noticed a clear separation of people:The blind group and the rest of the school.Even with all the talk of inclusion and everything else, I noticed a lack of wanting to get people closer to me and the rest of the staff.I'm not the most social person out there. I have trouble talking to people, I admit, I was not very participative in class, and maybe that contributed to this separation.But most of the time people either did not want to do work groups for example, or they were forced by the teachers, or when they did, it was with a feeling of ill-will that I even noticed.Like I said, I feel like I have a bit of a blame here, but I guess what's missing is the information from people who see that we're capable, we can do things.Not everything, of course, but we are just like everyone else in the world.It was amazing how someone came to me and said,Diego, can I ask you a question? Thinking I did not want to interact or something.I can tell friends on the fingers that see that they treated me normally, and that makes me sad, you know, because, as I said, we have much to contribute, teach, help, in the end, to be normal people.It's really amazing how much technology has brought us together.Today, I can discuss a new series on Netflix that is going on at the same time as everyone else and understand it, thanks to audio description and subtitles. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436271/#p436271 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I do not have much experience to speak of this, but come on:My school where I was originally studying was created to serve blind people, then integrating people with vision.When I studied, I noticed a clear separation of people:The blind group and the rest of the school.Even with all the talk of inclusion and everything else, I noticed a lack of wanting to get people closer to me and the rest of the staff.I'm not the most social person out there. I have trouble talking to people, I admit, I was not very participative in class, and maybe that contributed to this separation.But most of the time people either did not want to do work groups for example, or they were forced by the teachers, or when they did, it was with a feeling of ill-will that I even noticed.Like I said, I feel like I have a bit of a blame here, but I guess what's missing is the information from people who see that we're capable, we can do things.Not everything, of course, but we are just like everyone else in the world.It was amazing how someone came to me and said,Diego, can I ask you a question? And I asked, afraid that I would not interact or something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436271/#p436271 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? It has happened that I refuse to play Q9 for 1 year due to being scared of the edge of the cliff.So one day I decided to give the game another chance and see if I could overcome this problem, and fortunately, I succeeded.I am very happy for this, since for me the game is one of the best achievements. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436271/#p436271 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Without repeating what's been said, I tend to agree that a forum dedicated to such a cause wouldn't bode well for us. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it. People either have the intrinsic desire to learn more about something or they don't. If they did want to know more about how blind people function and cared about our well-being beyond small talk to begin with, we wouldn't even need such a forum. Plus, you can't teach compassion and understanding.I think the discussion has been somewhat narrowed down to the idea that things will only get better(hopefully) naturally as time passes by. Racism is still a rampant issue in the states, but it wouldn't be right to ignore the progress that has been made since the 50's and 60's. The same is true for blind people; I wouldn't want to be alive as a blind person, or any person for that matter, at any other point in time other than the present. Even just the technology at our disposal and the paths it [can] lead in terms of education, employment, etc, outweigh the options blind people had back then. Our situation is obviously far from perfect, but it's at least somewhat better than it was before.Change only occurs when things act upon it, and in our case, those "things" are humans. The way things have been going in our world seems to indicate that people slowly turn to drinking the Kool Aid, it's just a matter of decades. Social evolution plays a vital role in these types of things in my opinion, and this is what I ultimately think about the situation, though I don't take the "why bother?" approach, however I do Understand the reasoning for taking this position.Regarding the effort to make our situation better, it is because of how others in positions of power feel internally about blind people that we aren't granted opportunities to careers, transportation, and sometimes even places to live, though there are laws about service dogs. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "needless," unless you mean we're expected to put forth five times as much effort, and in that case, I would agree; but we're no different than some other groups. Before this becomes a game of who has it worse, our situation alone requires that we plan, prepare, and raise hell if necessary to get the things we want/need. Is it right? No, but this is the result of humans being humans. If they just would have the patience and understanding to help us in the appropriate ways, we'd be far better off. I apologize if I seem like that guy who rags on "the humans" so much, but this is what it really comes down to. The world can be a very cruel and unforgiving place, but it's precisely those who put forth the effort that things change. That isn't to discredit your feelings about any of this, Dark, because it's a rational emotional response to these circumstances. I just feel that we have no choice but to participate in society and take the heat to one day be liberated of these woes, albeit it will not happen overnight. Feel free to disagree with that, it's just my view. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436239/#p436239 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I just want to circle back to a point I made way back, in this thread and in others.Do the best you can in the ways that you can. If that means you have a small circle you run with, and they all get it, and life is better for you when you're interacting with them? Fine. If that means you're more able or willing to be a social advocate, and you want to take the struggle to the next level, so to speak, then hey, if that's your jam, go for it!No single person will change the world, and you don't have to. That's what I'm trying to get folks away from. It's very easy to get discouraged by the actions of one able-bodied person, or by a whole slew of them if you experience them back to back or can't separate experiences. But it's also important to remember the successes. It's important to remember that one failure to communicate does not, in and of itself, mean terminal failure. If I have someone grab my arm when attempting to cross a street on Monday, maybe on Tuesday I have a lovely conversation with a cab driver where I'm treated like any other human being. If I get horribly lost on Wednesday and feel silly because I have to ask for help, maybe on Thursday I help someone else because I know bus routes and I hear them struggling and am able to point them right. It's balance. And I'm not saying it's all even, because it sure as hell is -not even...but there is good here. There is progress being made, however halting. If you can't fight, then at least don't discourage others from fighting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436229/#p436229 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Here’s how I see it. We are discriminated against, and judged, and we can‘t help but be pregedious towards them. And it’s not bad. But, we can take it too far. So far that we start damaging ourselves and trapping our ability to reach out. And indeed we are at that point. Where we have so much pregidious that we can’t move. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436223/#p436223 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? What would be in it for them? How would we even advertise such a thing without it coming off as hostile? What would make them want to visit a forum about audio games when they have literally billions of other places to go on the internet?I'm editing this post because I realize it sounded pretty hostile in itself. What I mean is, if you have an idea that will work, you have to think critically about a lot of the concerns that I and others have raised. If you've got a sales pitch, go for it, it can't hurt. I think you'd really have to be careful of how you present such a thing, and I'm not backing down on that, because how would you feel if there were a forum for deaf people, and you happened to stumble across it, and there was this big flashing neon sign, so to speak, advertising that people with perfect hearing should come sit down and have some doughnuts and coffee while you explain the ins and outs of deafness to them? I don't know about you, but it feels creepy to me. Lead by example is my motto in a lot of instances. I very well may not be able to change the minds of the majority, no matter how loudly I yell and scream about how you just don't get it, but if I focus on doing the best I can in my immediate vicinity, I might be able to show someone that hey, blind people aren't helpless. If you can make that impression by doing, not squawking, you'll feel much better about it. Does that mean I don't get discouraged when people are clueless, and don't pick up what I'm putting down? Of course not. I get discouraged more often than I probably should, but what's the alternative, really? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436184/#p436184 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? "High risk, low reward" more or less describes everything people-related, from this side of the glass anyway. It doesn't have to be that way for everyone else, though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436205/#p436205 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I feel like the level of disdain in this thread is borderline self-defeating and almost toxic. This whole mentality of "Well the world is fucked so why even try". If you want to live that way, you'll die that way. Speaking for myself, at least, I would rather keep trying until I can't anymore than give up. And Dark, I wholly respect that you've been through a lot and are just bloody well and done with the whole thing, just about. I do respect that. The only reason I speak up here, in this manner, is because advising a high school student who is maybe half your age or less, using your experience as a guide...well, it may be somewhat misleading.It is not anybody's fault that buses did not need to change for people of colour, and that only laws had to be modified. When physical modifications must be made, it means more work for virtually everyone. This does not mean that able-bodied individuals, or whites, or men, or whoever, should continue to just drag their feet, put in the minimum effort and claim they've done all they can. Hell no. But it does mean that it's a greater ask by default, so the situations are not comparable, and that is not anybody's fault.I definitely have days where being a blind person is extremely disempowering. Sometimes, all I want to do is go home, put on some music and just chill, because people have been idiots when there's no good reason for it. Oftentimes I even do it. And then I come back the next day, or the day after, or at some other point, and I say to myself, "Okay, so this can't be all one way. Do I have the means and the desire to make a positive difference today?" If I do, I try. If I don't, I live my life and hope the waves aren't too big.I am, in fact, engaged in a project for my field placement where I am making a presentation on disability. It focuses on the things able-bodied individuals can do for all people with disabilities (for instance, listening to them and letting them self-direct wherever possible), as well as tips for dealing with specific challenges, such as blindness, deafness, autism, intellectual disability, learning difficulty/language processing, etc. I am working for an employment agency which is government-dfunded, not for profit, free to use and tailored toward clients who identify as having one or more disabilities, and so a good deal of the info is stuff that may already be known, but it never hurts to be more aware.I dunno. I guess it just gets a little samey to see yet another thread where a few users are bashing the hell out of the able-bodied populace because they don't get it. This isn't to say you should stop; go on, if it helps. But does it? Does it really, especially when the same echo chamber, relatively speaking, keeps making the same arguments and venting the same sort of spleen? I find that rather oppressive, to be honest, since even if I do feel frustration and even anger sometimes, I personally find that enough negative interference can actually make me feel worse, not better. Again, though, that's just me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436189/#p436189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? What would be in it for them? How would we even advertise such a thing without it coming off as hostile? What would make them want to visit a forum about audio games when they have literally billions of other places to go on the internet? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436184/#p436184 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Where did I ever say "they needed to devote their life to anything?" I was just noting before how even poster campaigns or radio adverts had failed to arouse interest, and how most actual change usually comes from blindness being part of someone else's a gender. As with most problems with the human disgrace, those most able to make any sort of substantive change to any situation are those who benefit most from the status quo. Even on a basic awareness level, unless people are aware they are unaware of something, they will not seek out more information, as I said above, most people are gold fish who just follow the latest shiny object, both socially, politically and logically.the best you can do is try to educate the few sighted people you run across in your life on the off chance anyone does! want to listen, and try to actually foster those rarely unused arts of conversation and good social skills just in case, though your practical chance to actually use these will be very small.I remember in 2015 when I was part of a guide dogs campaign to gain signatures for a petition to present to the government, to make audio announcement mandetory on UK busses. Yes, I stood out on a street and button holed people to get signatures, (a good vocal exercise for the powers of projecting your voice), but for everyone person who actually listened, there were ten or twenty others who simply walked past, ignored me when I said "excuse me", assumed I was collecting money and said "don't have any change", and even when I said I just want a signature continued to ignore me. There was even a notable proportion who, when I said "I was looking for a signature" Yelled "I don't have a pen?" and despite the fact I was waving a pen at them, and a couple who, even when I explained the situation actively said didn't believe in audio announcements on busses, or that "its' not the government's job" Yet I did this, I got about a hundred signatures for a day's solid work, and the entire petition went to the government with over eighteen thousand signatures gathered from different people around the country. The government's response? "We have no plans to change the law at this time" And the moral is, why sodding bother! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436182/#p436182 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Where did I ever say "they needed to devote their life to anything?" I was just noting before how even poster campaigns or radio adverts had failed to arouse interest, and how most actual change usually comes from blindness being part of someone else's a gender. As with most problems with the human disgrace, those most able to make any sort of substantive change to any situation are those who benefit most from the status quo. Even on a basic awareness level, unless people are aware they are unaware of something, they will not seek out more information, as I said above, most people are gold fish who just follow the latest shiny object, both socially, politically and logically.the best you can do is try to educate the few sighted people you run across in your life on the off chance anyone does! want to listen, and try to actually foster those rarely unused arts of conversation and good social skills just in case, though your practical chance to actually use these will be very small.I remember in 2015 when I was part of a guide dogs campaign to gain signatures for a petition to present to the government, to make audio announcement mandetory on UK busses. Yes, I stood out on a street and button holed people to get signatures, but for everyone person who actually listened, there were ten or twenty others who simply walked past, ignored me when I said "excuse me", assumed I was collecting money and said "don't have any change", and even when I said I just want a signature continued to ignore me. There was even a notable proportion who, when I said "I was looking for a signature" Yelled "I don't have a pen?" and despite the fact I was waving a pen at them, and a couple who, even when I explained the situation actively said didn't believe in audio announcements on busses, or that "its' not the government's job" Yet I did this, I got about a hundred signatures for a day's solid work, and the entire petition went to the government with over eighteen thousand signatures gathered from different people around the country. The government's response? "We have no plans to change the law at this time" And the moral is, why sodding bother! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436182/#p436182 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Yes, your expectations are too high, their focus is narrow, they care only about what they can do to fulfill their agenda. It would make no difference. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436172/#p436172 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? You ake it sound like they need to devote their life to it. So what if they visit the forum for 2 minutes? That’s more than 0. Will 2 minutes improve anything? Probably not. But the resource is there for anyone who does care, and for people with 2 minute interest spans. I don’t see anything wrong with adding a resource. I don’t expect it to work. I expect us to use everything we can as a resource. Are my expectations too high? Or should I not have a positive attitude period? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436157/#p436157 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @Zarvox, there have been lots of disability awareness campaigns. Here in the UK for example the RNIB used to publish some extremely twee adverts with a little girl explaining how hard it was to not see the stars, then there was a poster campaign with disabled comedians (one of whom was blind), in the late 2000's.For blind people specifically, guide dogs; the organisation not just the canines, do a huge amount of awareness work here in the UK.The problem however, is that most of this goes in one ear and out the other where the public are concerned. "Oh! blind people are so enspiring" But that doesn't make it anymore likely your average sighted person on the street would actually want to talk to someone. Even when major organisations get involved it doesn't usually help, for example a UN rights report in 2017 listed the UK having an extremely poor record for treating disabled people's rights seriously, however since blindness is a poor cousin to most disabilities, and these days "disability" always means wheel chair, your generally on to a none starter. This is why in my PhD thesis one of my major recommendations was the need to setup areas of experrtees in specific disabilities with governmental backing directly deal with social and environmental arbitration related to disability actually ensure discussion takes place, rather than just getting ignored, as is currently the case, however since "just getting ignored" is pretty much what happens to any vaguely sensible suggestion about disability anyway, my thesis very much included, there really isn't a lot you can do here. With blindness specifically, the history of accommodations for blind people is unfortunately almost universally the history of some group in power seeing some advantage to providing for the "blind beggars", or "inejucable blind people", and changes being made according to how much they fulfil someone else's political or religious a gender, rather than what they actually do for the people in question.So to get back to your suggestion, even if we did! have a blindness awareness forum on this site or anywhere else, how do you actually get sighted people to look at it, when most sighted people simply do not care! Remember the old adage, it might only take one psychiatrist to change a light bulb, but the light bulb has to want to change.About the most good you can do on this forum is pretty much vent about your frustration, which is a good thing psychologically in and of itself. I won't say sighted people "can't understand", manifestly sighted people could understand if they take the time, there is such a thing as empathy and imagination, but finding a sighted person who wants! to, there is the trouble. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436153/#p436153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @Zarvox, there have been lots of disability awareness campaigns. Here in the UK for example the RNIB used to publish some extremely twee adverts with a little girl explaining how hard it was to not see the stars, then there was a poster campaign with disabled comedians (one of whom was blind), in the late 2000's.For blind people specifically, guide dogs; the organisation not just the canines, do a huge amount of awareness work here in the UK.The problem however, is that most of this goes in one ear and out the other where the public are concerned. "Oh! blind people are so enspiring" But that doesn't make it anymore likely your average sighted person on the street would actually want to talk to someone. Even when major organisations get involved it doesn't usually help, for example a UN rights report in 2017 listed the UK having an extremely poor record for treating disabled people's rights seriously, however since blindness is a poor cousin to most disabilities, and these days "disability" always means wheel chair, your generally on to a none starter. This is why in my PhD thesis one of my major recommendations was the need to setup areas of experrtees in specific disabilities with governmental backing directly deal with social and environmental arbitration related to disability actually ensure discussion takes place, rather than just getting ignored, as is currently the case, however since "just getting ignored" is pretty much what happens to any vaguely sensible suggestion about disability anyway, my thesis very much included, there really isn't a lot you can do here. With blindness specifically, the history of accommodations for blind people is unfortunately almost universally the history of some group in power seeing some advantage to providing for the "blind beggars", or "inejucable blind people", and changes being made according to how much they fulfil someone else's political or religious a gender, rather than what they actually do for the people in question. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436153/#p436153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I don't see it either. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436148/#p436148 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Has anyone know if this has been done before? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436143/#p436143 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I just don't see something like that taking off, plus it smacks of being similar to a reeducation camp to me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436139/#p436139 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Ok fine everyone is entitled to bitching about rights. I just wanted a strong quote to end on that sounded cool. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436137/#p436137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Ok fine everyone is entitled to bitching about rights. I just wanted a strong quote to end on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436137/#p436137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? At dark, see this is why I highly, highly suggest a room on this forum for educating sighted people. Where they can go there to ask questions. To learn about what they can do as individuals to accomidate us better. So the next time they see a blind person, they not only know what to do, but they can tell others in that environment what how to help the blind person correctly. I completely agree with you, 100%, but jabbering about it to just other bind people won't do anything. We need a room, or a forum to connected the sighted to us. And if it turns out that no sighted people care, then at least we tried! At least we've done something new! Who knows, maybe there has been a foru for it before, but I haven't heard of one, and no one I talk to has heard of one. If we want to have better experiences, then let's do something besides complaining to each other. We are entitled to rights, not bitching about rights. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436136/#p436136 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @leibylucw my point, is that yes, all of this takes work, but its work we shouldn't need to put in. Very few other minorities physically need assistance buying items from a shop simply by nature of the items themselves, and while I'm definitely sure that there are cases of people being refused service due to their gender, race sexual orientation etc, in many countries that do not have direct discriminatory laws, there is usually a pretty strict legislative way around this, EG the equal opportunities act here in Britain, the Americans with disabilities act and so on.As I said in my PHd, it took a change of law to allow black people to use busses in the 1950's, it didn't take any physical changes to the busses themselves.All of this takes a needless amount of work and effort and frankly struggle, and makes the hole socialisation and life situation a huge amount more difficult. You do it, because you bloody have to, since the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing or not interacting with any technology at all, but frankly at this stage I personally am just getting sick and tired of the hole thing and completely and utterly jaded about humanity in general.If you have to take time and effort convincing a cashier at a shop where your buying basic necessities that your the same bloody species, what chance do you have making friends in a social situation. I'm frankly tired of trying, and tired of putting in the effort, and tired of it leading absolutely no where at all, and where as previously I'd have always advised people to put in the effort and try anyway since the alternative is pretty grim, these days I'm honestly not sure its even worth bothering. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/436005/#p436005 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @25 It doesn't haunt me, in fact, I generally don't even like people all that much. Most of them are shallow, vein, self-obsessed unintelligent creatures I want nothing to do with. This is why I love animals. they make no judgments against you. All you have to do is give them the basic things they need, and love and affection and they'll give it back in spades.I can't help but think you sound a bit entitled here though. People should know what a screen reader is? But why, it has nothing to do with their life. Where it would enter into things is for web developers, or even just developers, but you can't fault someone for not knowing about something they haven't been exposed to. You said about what green looks like? I know what it looks like, I have some vision. So you don't know what green looks like, what the hell's the matter with you, its 2019 already, geez. That last sentence just trying to give you an idea of what you just tried to communicate. In all actuality, if I had a way to convey to you guys what colors were, I would do it, but there just are no words to express it in a way that would be meaningful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435981/#p435981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? It doesn't haunt me, in fact, I generally don't even like people all that much. Most of them are shallow, vein, self-obsessed unintelligent creatures I want nothing to do with. This is why I love animals. they make no judgments against you. All you have to do is give them the basic things they need, and love and affection and they'll give it back in spades.I can't help but think you sound a bit entitled here though. People should know what a screen reader is? But why, it has nothing to do with their life. Where it would enter into things is for web developers, or even just developers, but you can't fault someone for not knowing about something they haven't been exposed to. You said about what green looks like? I know what it looks like, I have some vision. So you don't know what green looks like, what the hell's the matter with you, its 2019 already, geez. That last sentence just trying to give you an idea of what you just tried to communicate. In all actuality, if I had a way to convey to you guys what colors were, I would do it, but there just are no words to express it in a way that would be meaningful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435981/#p435981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Your anecdote has everything to do with the "bettered"nature" of humans, though. Developers' willingness to include usability for us in spite of our blindness is dependent upon their willingness to accommodate. Getting into an Uber with your guide dog only happens if the driver wants to pick you up even though their car might get some shed hair. I quite frankly have no clue what you mean when you say my "better-nature" statement isn't accurate when it has everything to do with what's wrong when dealing with the outside world.Yes, we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, but legislation is only as powerful as it is enforced, and it is hardly enforced to the extent we would like it to be. If you aren't a part of the majority, you most likely will not be heard, and, even if you are, those people in charge of committing to and causing change probably won't care anyways. We will always have to deal with the bureaucratic nature of facillitating the processes with which we can make our lives easier, and that's not just a blind thing, or even a disability thing. It's a being a part of the minority. "all of it takes work, and public relations, and politics, and negotiation, and being reasonable, and lots of other crap." That's exactly right, it takes a lot and a lot of crap to reach the right channels, and even then we are still far from making any sort of substantial progress. How can we expect assistance when we live in a world that is so hesitant to give it? So I am very much confused about literally everything in your last post, I'm afraid. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435972/#p435972 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @leibylucw, I don't think your assessment of "wanting people to be better natured" is necessarily accurate, I've noticed myself I've got on fine in places where i was valued for the talents I have, rather than devalued for the sensory information I do not have. This is something people can expect at least some of the time in situations they inhabit, rather than being almost literally no where. On the tech companies side, I'm afraid there i will be more harsh, since at least theoretically every company should! provide accessibility, the same way these days all public buildings must legally be wheel chair accessible. In practice, this doesn't happen since unfortunately blindness is one of the most invisible disabilities definitely intended), so usually your left with crowbaring a combination of assistive tech, logic and persistance into solutions, or talking to people about reasonable accommodations, which is not actually as difficult as you might expect if you can actually get to talk to the people who are responsible for the technology itself as opposed to the layers and layers of public service and coorporate screening that most development goes on behind. Its certainly possible, just take a look at the database on this site from Trimps to Sryth, however again all of it takes work, and public relations, and politics, and negotiation, and being reasonable, and lots of other crap. To bring this down to a %100 basic level, yes, if I walk into a super market and go to the counter request assistance, I will probably get it, and if I don't I can probably phone the supermarket and complain but yee gods! I am so sick of standing at the customer services desk listening to the conversation of: "Can you help this blind man?" "well I'm on my break, why don't you ring down" "Alright I'll go and ask Niel" "No Niel's Busy, how about Mandy?" "She's on till three, wait a minute and I'll phone through and see if we have someone else to take over till three" All of the sodding time me sitting there feeling like an idiot, that of course assuming that the person at customer service doesn't simply ignore me and say "its not my problem", which has actually happened before. Again, You can do it, you can put up with it, you can live your life around it, you can even make a stink and try to change it, but bloody sodding great stinking hell do you get bloody well tired! of it! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435966/#p435966 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Why is there no forum strictly devoted for educating sighted people? A forum where sighted people cam ask questions and we can answer. A forum where we can just talk with them. We have a billion forums, but not that one. We could even make it a room on this forum if we wanted! Spreading it by mouth and other methods can attract people. We spend a lot of time talking about this and that which is great. Except for one thing. We are talking to each other, not sighted people. They aren’t seeing these posts. So why can’t we create a room to educate the sighted? Worst case we just have an empty room URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435965/#p435965 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @leibylucw, I don't think your assessment of "wanting people to be better natured" is necessarily accurate, I've noticed myself I've got on fine in places where i was valued for the talents I have, rather than devalued for the sensory information I have. This is something people can expect at least some of the time in they inhabit, rather than being almost literally no where. On the tech companies side, I'm afraid there i will be more harsh, since at least theoretically every company should! provide accessibility, the same way these days all public buildings must legally be wheel chair accessible. In practice, this doesn't happen since unfortunately blindness is one of the most invisible disabilities definitely intended), so usually your left with crowbaring a combination of assistive tech, logic and persistance into solutions, or talking to people about reasonable accommodations, which is not actually as difficult as you might expect if you can actually get to talk to the people who are responsible for the technology itself as opposed to the layers and layers of public service and coorporate screening that most development goes on behind. Its certainly possible, just take a look at the database on this site from Trimps to Sryth, however again all of it takes work, and public relations, and politics, and negotiation, and being reasonable, and lots of other crap. To bring this down to a %100 basic level, yes, if I walk into a super market and go to the counter request assistance, I will probably get it, and if I don't I can probably phone the supermarket and complain but yee gods! I am so sick of standing at the customer services desk listening to the conversation of: "Can you help this blind man?" "well I'm on my break, why don't you ring down" "Alright I'll go and ask Niel" "No Niel's Busy, how about Mandy?" "She's on till three, wait a minute and I'll phone through and see if we have someone else to take over till three" All of the sodding time me sitting there feeling like an idiot, that of course assuming that the person at customer service doesn't simply ignore me and say "its not my problem", which has actually happened before. Again, You can do it, you can put up with it, you can live your life around it, you can even make a stink and try to change it, but bloody sodding great stinking hell do you get bloody well tired! of it! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435966/#p435966 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @dark, perhaps it's not an immediate question of getting sight back or not, but the resentment you've described is what often leads blind people to wishing they did have it. What makes more sense? Solving every subset of problems we face because of our lack of vision, which can take lifetimes worth of work to do, or just give blind people the one thing that would solve all of those problems? Nothing, because both are outrageously unrealistic answers.The inconveniences of blindness are exactly why we feel the way we do, and it seems the only way to rid our lives of those inconveniences is by the generosity of other humans, which you can almost guarantee doesn't exist in a vast majority of the world. So I still argue we're left with either wanting people to be better-natured or having sight.Having just gone through a social media purge, I'm not missing anything substantial. In fact, a lot of what I was exposed to on Facebook and other popular platforms did far more damage to my everyday life than I realized, and this was just within the last month.Regarding tech, I full-heartedly agree that developers should take all groups into account when assessing usability. The issue with that, however, is the gap between developers and those groups. Most developers aren't going to regard usability, and I'm using that word because accessibility doesn't quite do us justice for our cause. They don't factor in screen reader access or any assistive technology during the development life cycle. But developers are humans, too; sighted ones, at that. They should be held at a higher expectation due to the nature of their work, but they, like the general population, have probably never encountered a blind person, and even if they wanted to make their products usable to blind users, they have to know exactly how assistive tech interacts with their products, and that becomes a very extremely complicated thing outside of a few HTML elements. I'm not excusing what's been accused of here, but I thought I'd give some perspective on the tech side. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435958/#p435958 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? To push back a little bit here, @31, you're assuming that sighted people would automatically have that line of thinking. Again, we can't expect the world to think in the same ways we do. Yes, what you said makes sense, but what reason would the general population have to travel that path of thinking, let alone arrive at that conclusion? It's the same argument, just a different application. Sighted people are capable of understanding those simple facts, but the ways in which they synthesize (or don't) differ greatly from the way we think about these kinds of things.This is where the whole "critical thinking and finding alternative solutions to problems" thing comes into play. I feel as blind people, we have to be aware of many things to ensure we can accomplish whatever it is we need to. I explained to several friends awhile ago that there are tons of ways for me to get to the Amazon pickup store in our neighborhood (not that they thought I couldn't do it, but genuinely didn't know what different options there were). FOr me, these options were:Pull up the directions on my phone and walk there myselfTake an UberTake a LyftTake the busAsk a friend to go with meRight there are multiple ways to do the same thing, albeit you can concise or broaden some of those options in whatever fashion you like. No matter what way you slice it, though, you can clearly see how many possibilities there are for finding alternative solutions. Sighted people wouldn't normally think in this way because they have immediate access. Car, car, car! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435954/#p435954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @leibylucw, i don't think its a question of anyone wishing for sight, that is a hole other topic. I do however think its not unreasonable to wish to have the same ease carrying out everyday tasks, including social interaction as everyone else does. To take a simple example, a sighted person walks into a pub, can glance around, make eye contact, see if anyone wants to start a conversation, can read the menu behind the bar, and can walk straight to a seat and sit down and doesn't generally have to care about ambient noise levels, indeed many sighted people it is the very none verbal communication that makes pubs and clubs a good social environment.A blind person cannot make eye contact so is always limited to making the first move, cannot go off none verbal sygnals so if the ambient noise level is too high is pretty much stuck, is reliant on either other people or a guide dog to find either the seat or the bar, cannot read a menu etc etc. You can still do it of course, I often did in colege, but what is for a sighted person a relaxing half hour, is for a blind person hugely more difficult, and that's before we get into the aforementioned mess of whether anyone will actually want to talk to you anyway, which, as previously stated is a pretty slim possibility. This was a major point in the definition of disability I wrote into my phd, that the characteristic of a disability is the effort a disabled person undertakes in fulfilling desires. Oh you can still do it and be happy and fulfill your dreams and whatever other bloody cliches you want to throw out, but yee gods you'll have to work harder, that's just how the damn world is! In terms of tech and accommodations, imagine this situation. sitting on the seat at the front of a very full buss when someone gets on with a walking frame. They ask you if you would please stand up and let them have your seat, because as their walking frame has wheels on the bottom, it makes it very difficult to stand on a moving vehicle, and while you don't have functional eyeballs at least you have working legs and can hold onto a bar for five or ten minutes. I don't imagine most people here have walking frames or know what its like to be on a buss with one, however, in this situation the person has explained the specific problem caused by their disability, and asked you to make a miner accommodation for them. Of course, if they asked you to get off the buss entirely for some reason, or if they asked you to stand the hole way on a three hour long journey, that would not! be a reasonable thing to ask.The right moral action here is pretty obvious. So, do I expect sighted people to know about screen readers? Well of course I don't, neither do I expect every bit of visual information everywhere to have a text caption. However, I don't think its unreasonable to ask a developer to stick some labels on html buttons in their game, or to ask a lecturer to speak what they're writing onto the black board or putting up on the overhead projector. How this translates to the social media discussion I don't know, since as I said generally speaking if someone's entire topic of conversation ran along the lines of "ha ha ha look at this funny video" I probably wouldn't be interested in interacting with them either. Btw, is it me, or is the world getting stupider? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435952/#p435952 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I agree with that, social media is something I don't really get the point of. I do understand that, if we want to appear normal and well-adjusted to sighted folks, we should make an effort to get on their level, so to speak, and not having social media does kinda make you stick out like a sore thumb, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Back when I had my Facebook, way before meme culture took off, people would remove me from their friends list left and right if I didn't post for awhile. I know that's why they did this, because when I asked a couple of people about it, that's what they told me the reason was. I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to share every minute detail of my day. Not long after that, I deactivated my Facebook page. I still have it should I ever feel the need to get back into it, but I highly doubt that will happen.As for the points raised about people not knowing what a screen reader is, I won't harp on this too much, since quite a few others beat me to the punch and made their points a lot more eloquently than I might have, but here's something to think about. If a sighted person barely understands what a cane is for, despite it being the most well-known symbol, for lack of a better term, of blindness, why should they think about screen readers? Things like that are not in the public consciousness at all. You really can't blame someone for not understanding that if they continuously call a cane a stick. I know some people care about that more than others, I happen to be one of the ones that does. Sticks are crude weapons or firestarters at best, and useless garbage being kicked down the sidewalk at worst. It's demeaning, and, while of course I'm aware that the average person means no harm when they call it that, it still bothers me. You wouldn't call a walking cane that an elderly person might use a stick, so why should our canes' functionality get diminished like that? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435943/#p435943 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? The majority of the screenshots of text people share (when they could just PASTE THE FREAKIN TEXT) are inane rubbish I regret puting in the effort to open, download, view, share, and recognize with SeeingAI. ... I left out the "will it or nill it let me open the image in full size, select it, and open the menu to save it?" Roulette. And only, like, once that I can recall was it ever worth it. Every now and then, I try again, just in case I'm missing something, or had an unrepresentative sample, and nope, still inane rubbish. And political rants about how awful the moustache twirlers on the other side are, but now I'm being redundant The majority of text posts are the same sort of thing. Social Media is just crap in general. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435934/#p435934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? My turn to post in this topic. Let's start with my comment on 25. To everyone who has commented on it, I understnadand agree with you. However, when someone asks the question: how do the blind use technology? Well let's think about how we can receive information: 1, hearing, 2, touch, 3, smell, 4, taste. Obviously it's not smell or taste. I can understnad touch, if they think about braille and then say, well since they use touch to read and write, they use it for tech. I can understand that. But also, there is audio, which is the biggest one. Now here is my problem. When I respond, screen reader. Does the name not explain itself? It reads the screen. But how they ask? Well not with vision. So it's either touch or audio. We only have 4 senses, 2 of which don't make sense for using tech, so they have a 50 50 of getting the ideas right. Come on. Now if they have never thought about that question then obviously they won't know. I only expect them to think about it, once they ask, or see me and think about asking.Now, onto memes. Yesterday I was sitting outside with a friend. I was showing her seeing AI. She wanted to see how it would do with recognizing memes. There are so many types of memes. Caption over pitcures, manipulating pictures, famous quotes matched to a picture, and so many others. But there are also fucked up memes too. Memes about LGBT, abortion, and religion. Those personally are ok to me. But not memes about child protective services raping kids, and other horrible topics.Some memes take it way way too far. With memes, they can either be extremely dumb and stupid which is what is suppose to make it funny they can be clever, or they can be volgar and take things way too far. I'm cool with joking about most stuff, but not things like the example above. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435930/#p435930 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @25, I guarantee there are things other minority groups are aware of on a large scale that you are not. That’s a very arrogant attitude to have, and I assure you it will not serve you well when interacting with sighted people (and yes, a majority of people have no clue what a screen reader is). Unless they’ve encountered a blind person, how would they know about screen readers, and more to the point, why would they ever want or need to know?I think you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture (no pun intended). Life isn’t just about you or the ways in which you access things. The world is a big place, and you can’t expect everybody to know how you operate as a blind person because you think that they should. People only learn by being taught or shown, so instead of getting angry with those who don’t know what you’re talking about, why don’t you enlighten them about what it is you’re talking about? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435903/#p435903 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Wow @25, I do think that post was a little extreme. Is it really wrong for someone sighted to not know about NVDA or how blind people use a computer? Let me ask you, do you know all the intricacies of driving a wheel chair, communicating using sign language, living with just one hand, or being fully paralyzed from the neck down? I highly doubt it, so you shouldn't fault sighted people for having less knowledge that they frankly don't need to have. Sure, if they don't know, you can inform them. But don't force it on them. In the end, we live in a visual world, not the other way round. So while yes, the sighted world should adapt in some aspect, it shouldn't be taken to the extreme. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435840/#p435840 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? A lot of how blind people feel is reminiscent of "the grass is always greener on the other side." Our frustrations bear so much weight on the positive outlook we have for the thought of being granted sight that we don't regard the downfalls of vision, or rather what it may lead to at times. Perhaps we might have a better quality of life, or maybe not. Maybe if you have your sight, you'd resort to drugs for other existential issues you may be facing. I could've gotten into the wrong crowd at a younger age but I couldn't due to my blindness. That was actually a blessing in disguise, seeing as how the kids I hung out with at that time grew up to be what I consider losers. My point is that we don't know how life would be if granted a particular change or given access to something we didn't have before. Just because we're given something after years of not having it doesn't mean we'd know what to do with it, or at the very least are any more knowledgeable on its implications. Despite what we think, we as blind people couldn't possibly know what having sight would do to us. It's just as likely to go out and attend school to one day get into that field you've always wanted to just as it is to indulge in video games and become infatuated with and blow off life's responsibilities.I do think, however, that not enough credit is being given to Dark's point. While there are ways to accomplish feats of transportation, it can be quite frustrating to deal with. I mentioned this in my other thread: why can't I hail an Uber without worrying about if the driver would turn around and cancel the trip because of my guide dog? Why can't I get on the bus without somebody making a big deal about me and my guide dog taking a little extra space while standing, and let people ask me politely to move if I am in the way? These pesky nuances add up over time, and we as humans only have so much patience. Being resentful only makes sense when you deal with these things on a semi-regular basis. And believe me, my patience as a guide-dog user is wearing extremely thin. I won't go into certain parts of the neighborhood on Thursday nights because all the drunken college students turn into five-year-olds when they see my dog. I know better than to not lash out, but it is becoming evermore infuriating when I encounter people who can't control themselves around a dog. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435816/#p435816 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? The sighted, by and large, have no use for nor need of things like NVDA. The average sighted person is not going to know about such things, as it represents something of a niche bit of knowledge. it's common for us, not so common for them. Ask yourself, for instance, how much you know about mobility aids, sign language/interpreters or other such things if you're not a member of that given minority. Chances are good that even if you're really up to date on blind tech, you may not be quite as much in the loop when it comes to innovations for other disabilities.That said, your tech situation sounds like hell, and I'm sorry you went through it. I feel for you in that having to explain yourself over and over, or having to fight to be taken seriously, is extremely draining. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435817/#p435817 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? On the driving issue turtlepower, I think in fairness that depends upon your location. While everyone drives in the UK, there are also train services connecting all major cities, plus tram services in cities themselves, so your actual taxi rides will be considerably less. what is more of a problem, is the effort taken to get anywhere, you can't just say "Oh I'm going to bob's house today!" You have to either pay for a taxi, or take time learning a long and often complex route which can be difficult even with a guide dogg. I remember when I was doing a production in Newcastle with me living in Durham, where three times a week it took a five minute taxi to the station, a fifteen minute train ride, followed by ten minutes on the metro and then another fifteen minute walk crowded stations, about an hour's journey in all. I did it, there and back three times a week, soemtimes as many as five times a week (since I couldn't find a light opera company in Durham who had me). Did anyone ever give a rat's rear about much work I'd put in to getting there? Did they hell! Was I ever asked to socialise outside the production? Like hell I was!And yet when the ground was covered in snow and people had to walk rather than drive, oh the horror!Frankly I'm often simply tired of just bothering to put in the effort. I've not generally had as bad a situation with tech myself, though I admit I do miss the days when I was growing up in the nineties and could reasonably expect to play at least modern games upon release with my level of sight, indeed I still miss my Snes . Then again, I will say I remember how bloody frustrating it was to sit in a discussion of my tabletop roleplaying friends all discussing the latest heroes of might and magic or civilization, and basically me sitting in a corner getting ever more pissed off since I'd give my right arm to play a game with that level of complexity, then again these days I'm not really finding people who have any interest in games, sf or pretty muh anything beyond getting drunk at all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435810/#p435810 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Hello. I am going to go into a very long post, so be prepared.I have been blind from birth, and when it comes to not being included, it really doesn't matter how hard you tell your self not to worry about it, it'll get better, it really doesn't help. At least not for me. And i'll tell you why.First off, friends and culture.I have a friend, her name is Madotsuki, i've known her for three years, and when it comes to things like memes, sometimes, I really don't understand them. Mostly because they're visual, and they really do take quite a bit of time to make me understand them, and at the end of the day, I am left saying. What the hell is this? two such examples are the cloraform meme, and some meme that goes, Yeet!When they try to explane, I get the meme sometimes, but most of the time, I really don't know how to interpret them. It's like when some person with site comes up and asks you. Do you know how green looks? And I go like, NOO, I don't , And they start asking me, Do you have an idea of how it looks? and that's, just, gunna haunt me for ever, and ever.I know most of you are probably on the saim page with me, not having the pleasure of seeing things just like a sited person, herts, like a bite from a poisenous animal, it just kills you inside everytime someone talks about something visual that's almost impossyble to describe, like a meme or color. Next, technology, software, and games.I groo up in a place where my familly couldn't teach me how to use a computer, so I had to teach my self. This caused me to brake at least seven of my computers, of which were paid by BCVI, a company that takes care of the blind and visually impared here in Belize.When ever I had a problem, I'd call for my parents, they usually fixt the problem, but they would only do it with the mouse. That made me feal rather bad, as it made me feal as if though I could never figure out how to use a peass of tech, even if I tried my hardest. Although with most if not all of our sited counterparts, could usually figure out how to use a computer with a mouse, than the time it took me, [seven years,] to figure out how to use one computer.When I lirnd how to use a computer, I got hold of my little brother, he thought I looked interesting using the computer with just the keys, so I got him settled with NVDA, and the keyboard, together I showed him how to use it with only the keyboard, and now, my little brother does 99.9 of his time with only the keyboard and NVDA! The only time he uses the mouse, is when he plays games that use it.Down here in Belize, my familly doesn't do that to me when it comes to computers and phones. If anything, they're the first ones to come asking me!Which brings me to my other point, games.You know when there's this good game around and everyone is talking about it? And when you try to play, it's only then you realise that it's not accessible?I love playing games and keeping intouch with our sited counterparts, but that huge gap between games and accessibility in games will be something that will always stic to us and will never die away, like a scar that never heals.I know my blindness can not be the falt of me not being able to play games, but it is rather a sad truth that it is one of them. While my friends are there playing fortnite and minecraft, I am stuc wondering if, and when, most, if not all of these games will become accessible to people who are blind or visually impared? And now, my second to last topic, software and chat.Open MPT or Open Mod Plug Tracker, is one of the coolest trackers to use the windows native background for displaying text, dialogs, and other things.Only problem is, accessibility is auffen seen as an afterthought, especialy in the creation of software such as Open MPT, making software accessible for the blind and visually impared is auffen very laggy, or sometimes never finishes itself, lieving the blind and visually impared away from making music with a close to accessible program like Open MPT.Next, chatting and Discord.Dispite Discords accessibility impruvements, chatting has always been a thing when it comes to new sited people you don't know, especially when it comes to a chat client like Discord, where when chatting, and if you tell them that you're blind,and forgive me if I sound terable on this part of my point here, but they go. you're blind? WOW! So, how are you tiping? and you ancer. I'm using a screen reader called NVDA. They go. NVDA? What's that? You meen to tell me, that noone, in there life, has ever herd of a screen reader?IT'S FUCKING TWO THOUSAND NINETEEN AND YOU HAVN'T HERD OF A FUCKING SCREEN READER! WOW! COOL! Madotsuki always tells me, sure they're not gunna know what's a screen reader Juan, cause they have no use for it! And to me, that sounds like a stupid, poor, terab
Re: Do you feel excluded?
2019-05-22
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : aaronespinozaca via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded? I use Snapchat and Instagram. I mainly post my photos and videos and watch other people's videos and Instagram has photo description that is okay. You should try them out again. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435772/#p435772 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? It may be true that we as blind people put more emphasis on driving than a sighted person does. In fact, the amount of complaining I've heard about gas prices and vehicle maintenence pretty much proves it, at least anecdotally. However, in my own case at least, I think I'm more sensitive to it because I'd love to drive just for its own sake. Now, if I'd been born sighted, I realize I might be singing a completely different tune, but I think that a lot of the frustration that some of us feel is legitimate, because we know what it's like to pay more for an uber trip than we would have done if we drove ourselves to the same destination, or deal with Paratransit and its flakiness, or use public transit out of necessity, although I realize that last one applies to many others as well. I guess it feels like more of a burden because a sighted person has the choice to drive or not drive, we don't. The sacrifices that they choose to make are theirs to own, but we don't get that same luxury. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435748/#p435748 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @Jayde, I run into that problem with blind people as well, however in my case I confess my own irritation at the situation is precisely because! I've made the effort. I was never allowed to get away with bad social skills growing up. I've had tea parties with Bishops and professors, I've attended academic conferences, I've performed on stage in front of two thousand people, been to music festivals and and done one man shows. At university I was actually responsible for organising and presenting social events to visiting speakers.one of the first things I learned as a teenager which astonished me, is just how easy to learn social skills and that little known art of conversation are. What I'm now unfortunately finding, is that most people are not that interested in either, and once you've passed thirty and most people have either spawned or settled into their own social circles, what skills you have don't matter in the least. I freely admit I probably see the situation as a bit more dire these days, having been brow beaten by my parents to move to a small town in 2017 where I know even fewer people than I did previously, and where it turns out there is literally nothing beyond a lot of small pubs, old people and a mostly useless theatre, though it also doesn't help that my friends who are now at long disance have! indeed fallen off the map, usually because they've gone and procreated. We have started an actors workshop which is fun, even if we do have to go to my paren'ts very scummy home city to do it, but as is usual, while people are quite happy to interact during the workshop, nobody shows any interest in interacting outside it.So yes, I am rather resentful, but such is life, as I said, these days I'm coming rapidly to belief that most people are thoughtless goldfish and whatever effort you put in to actually establishing anything like a connection with people, especially given the amount of time you have to work to get them past the "weerd blind person" syndrome, is likely to be wasted most of the time. of course you try again, since the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing, but each time you try and fail, its hahrder to muster the energy to bother trying further, indeed if it weren't for my lady I probably would've given up on other people entirely by now, heck even my lady I first met online. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435740/#p435740 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? It's okay Dark, I don't agree with the state of Pennsylvania's general sense of politics either... Sometimes I wonder if people give consideration to what makes a good friend a good friend. Jayde's point about the driving situation seems to be a big thing with blind people -- maybe I would get enjoyment out of recreational driving, but I don't know too many people who do that nowadays. Who has the money to keep bankrolling the gas for it?! If it's really a matter of your sighted friends not wanting to spend time with you due to transportation concerns, what the hell kind of friends are those? In retrospect, I had plenty of sighted friends who didn't drive for one reason or another, yet there was always the one or two designated drivers of the group who had no issue whatsoever to come get us. The same is true for my family. If somebody needed a ride to a family gathering, even small ones, it wasn't a burden to have an aunt or uncle come pick them up. Even my friends now have no issue with driving places. So for me, the driving thing is pretty shallow as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435728/#p435728 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I've had this feeling when, say, going to a new doctor's office, or walking through a mall. The number of times I have been told I don't know where I'm going, or even grabbed to steer me right, is ridiculous and stupid.As for the social/friendship side of it? Maybe I've just been pretty lucky, but overall I've always had friends. Some are blind, some aren't. I'm not the sort who wants or needs a huge circle, and I've been fortunate enough to find people similar enough to me to get along with. And for those who aren't, I can still make conversation without standing out horribly. I mean hell, I've had three days at my new placement and I've already made good rapport with six of my coworkers, three especially so...the sort where if I'd met them outside work I might have tried to hang out with them for fun or whatnot.People who are shallow don't impress or interest me much. I don't need them and don't waste time lamenting their lack of presence in my life.Pro-tip: friends who get upset that you can't drive aren't really friends. Just sayin'. I worry about that too, but my friends know I can't drive and are okay picking me up/dropping me off places if we hang out. It's just sort of a part of the experience and they've internalized it. Some sighted people can't/don't drive either, after all.I see a lot of resentment boiling in this topic, or simmering I suppose. This concept that the sighted world excludes us. And it does, often enough. But sometimes I think it comes down to a little luck and a whole lot of perseverance. This doesn't mean it's easy or that I'm trying to dismiss or lessen the experiences many of you have had, but it seems that some of them come down to who you run with, and whether or not you possess social skills. I am sad having to say this, but I oftentimes find that when I hang out with one or more blind people in person, I notice a distinct lack of social awareness. This is absolutely -not true of all or even most blind folks out there, but it's something I experience enough that I believe it's colouring my perception a little here. For me, the best interaction is the sort where a disability is not front and center. One of the reasons I like my coworkers so much; a couple have asked questions, but most take me just for my own sake and to hell with the blindness. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435724/#p435724 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @leibylucw, I remember when I used to have friends like that, be prepared to see them all vanish when they procreate, sorry but this is how it is, the second that you hit the age when most people around you are increasing the population, you no longer exist, no wonder they call it the selfish gene!Maybe its growing up in a medical family, but doctors usually are one of the groups I find to be okay around blind people, the trouble usually comes from shop assistants, servers in cafes, people like that. I will say I generally noticed the extroversion content was much higher in the states than when I was in Britain, people would be far more likely to come up and start a conversation with me. On the other hand, most conversations in when I was in Pennsylvania visiting my lady's family seemed far more superficial and in some ways stricter with a narrower range of subjects, with women talkign animatedly about the doings of other women and their church, whilst the men generally didn't talk as much unless the opportunity came up to talk about beer, sport home improvement, and on the rare occasions other topics like politics turned up, they were usually marked by agreement so universal it would've been almost cultural blasphomy to disagree.so while people were superficially friendly with a "hello" I don't think if I lived in the states full time I'd get on much better than I do over here generally. Btw, amusing story about people not asking things. I remember when I was at university, I'd just left my room to go up to the hall for dinner. A man came down the drive behind me. I heard him call to two people who ran passed him "excuse me, do you know where reception is" The two people didn't hear. He began asking me "excuse me do you know " whereupon I turned around and he saw I was carrying a cane. He then said "Oh I'm sorry" And was obviously preparing to leave. I toldd him, "Yes I certainly do know where the reception is, I'm heading up that way would you like to follow me" He stood for a second or two, and then, rethinking things actually said, "Oh yes, I suppose you know your way around here better than most people" We proceeded to trot up to reception, and I think he left with something to think about . URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435716/#p435716 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I've experienced the whole talking through you and to the sighted person you're with. I was with a friend at the liquor store one night picking up liquor (no, really?). I was using sighted guide so I wasn't risking knocking into the bottles and breaking them. A gentleman approached us and told my friend he was doing a really great thing by helping me. He went on to give my friend $10 and said "God bless you."I just love how disabled people are looked at like charity cases whenever they receive help. Heaven forbid a friend help another friend out because that's what friends do. It didn't really make me uncomfortable, and after discussing it with my friend, he shared the same sentiments. It just bothers me that there are others out there who consider and treat me like I'm anymore helpless than a perfectly able-bodied person asking for assistance with something.There are times, though, when I'm being talked to indirectly where I will chime in, and the person redirects the attention to me. I'd say I have a 95% success rate. A similar situation happened where we were at a university-owned convenient store, and the cashier was praising the same friend for helping me out. What was interesting is that he interjected and said, "Just helping a friend out." After that point, we were having a normal conversation about how things were going like classes, finals, weekend plans, etc. Not only did my friend's comment help the cashier understand that I'm just a human being who happens to have broken eyes and a cute yellow lab for a guide dog, but that my friend also views me as a friend. I often feel like I'm a burden to my friends because of the level of help I ask at times, but I'm constantly greeted with nothing but overwhelming willingness to give it, and it's because they are genuinely great people. This is why I say I'm supremely lucky -- it's quite rare anybody has friends of that caliber, and that's something I have the utmost appreciation for.Whenever I'm on my own, I sometimes encounter the back-handed comments that are degrading but so minor in nature.I was alone at the dentist a year or two ago for a visit. When I was done, I was about to leave to go outside when one of the receptionists asked if my dad was picking me up. Perhaps it was because I had been going to that dentist for so long with my dad that she just assumed that's what was happening, but why would that matter? Can't I just leave without you wondering about how I'm getting to my next destination? Do you think I have to rely on my dad for my transportation needs? What's stupidly annoying about these kinds of situations is that our questioning of others' intentions or attitudes may be viewed as unwarranted. Maybe one of us gets pushed enough to ask "do you think my dad drives me everywhere?" And maybe the answer is "I was just wondering, relax." Then suddenly, we're the assholes who need to change because we're the ones with the problem.Ultimately, what do I care about what a receptionist thinks? I don't, but it doesn't mean I can't feel degraded because of what's being said to me. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" is a load of horse feces. Words carry a lot of weight and meaning behind them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435693/#p435693 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? That's a good point about doctors' visits being made stupidly uncomfortable. That's exactly the reason why I never go unless I absolutely have to, and even so, and luckily for me, it's only every once in a great while to get an antibiotic or whatever. I would never feel comfortable sharing a personal problem with someone who clearly has no regard for my thoughts or opinions. I mean, you can negate the problem and make a statement by going into the room alone, which I do as an adult anyway, but the damage has already been done, at least with this particular doctor. I will never understand how my family views me as ungrateful and oppositional for its own sake if I dare voice this thought, but then again, they're the same people who think that if some random stranger wants to put their hands on me and pray for my blindness to be "healed", I should be happy that they took the time to do that and that I should feel good because they're feeling good about doing that. Meanwhile, I'm struggling not to break the person's wrist to get them the hell off me. Thankfully, this doesn't happen nearly as often as I'm making it seem, but the few times it has definitely left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435656/#p435656 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? My attitude is, "move on and try to find those who you're compatible with."I think I'd have better luck looking for a wish-granting item, items, or being. They're equally imaginary, after all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435635/#p435635 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? And post 14 showcases why I stopped going to my doctor's visits with my parents. I got my physicals when they were required for the sake of athletics, and then I never set foot in medical offices until... Gosh, I dunno, 26? 27? It's not like they looked at me or talked to me or made me feel like I was their patient at all; all dialogue went to my parents.Humility is one thing, but putdown because of ignorance is a whole different cup of worms, and to this day, I still don't know how to deal with it all that well. My family knows that I know more about computers and technology than any one of them, but they're going to exhaust every other avenue they can before they come to me with a query, even if it means breaking whatever it is they're trying to fix first. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435632/#p435632 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? kaigoku wrote:the coworker who asked the question simply said something along the lines of, "Uh-Huh, thank you."I don't know how you actually got over a put-down like that. I imagine myself in that situation and would have probably quit. LOL. Jobs are plenty and you can always go somewhere where your work and value are appreciated.I noticed this in Europe mostly, not necessarily in America. The attitudes about blind people are drastically different. We were attending a conference where we had launched a new product we had been developing. I was surrounded by five sighted coworkers at the booth we had rented, and 100% of the time inquirers would just go right past me and to the sighted people directly. This even happened when only one sighted person was with me at the time at the booth.It was so bad that when one gentleman approached me and asked if I could demonstrate the product, it made my day and I ended up thanking him for actually asking me directly.In contrast, another convention we attended in the US was the complete opposite. Most inquirers had no problems approaching me and I was seen as a true equal there. After these two experiences, I mentioned this to my coworkers and noted the differences in attitudes between Europe and the US. They agreed with me and said that they had noted the same thing. It helped them gain a better understanding of what we go through as blind people in terms of struggling to be seen as as competent as our sighted peers.I'm fortunate to be working in a place where my blindness is nonexistent, so for my coworkers to see the general attitude of sighted people towards blind people was shocking to them (I was instrumental in the software's development after all.) They had no idea how bad it is for us before we went to the launch conference in Europe.So if you're working at a company in the US @Kaigoku, I'm sad that you've experienced this type of put-down. I hope you can find a place where you're valued. No job is worth your self-worth. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435626/#p435626 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Again as I said in the socialisation topic, it depends upon the people. Frankly yes the prevalence of funny videos and conversations that basically are just variations on the "h look at that" theme are down right depressing. However, if you can firstly find intelligent people with actual interests in common, and secondly actually engage with those people, then things can work out, the trouble is those are both pretty huge ifs and not necessarily dependent upon you. You can be as charming and competent and witty and well dressed as you like, but if the group of people or dynamics or interests or hell just the atmosphere is wrong your on to a none starter and there's nothing you can do about it, particularly since just because you happen to get something right with some people for a short while, since those people always have the option to leave and find more friends elsewhere pretty easily, don't expect them to actually give a rat's rear end about keeping in contact once you're out of their immediate sphere of influence.My really good experiences at uni and with my role playing friends used to make me believe that if you tried long enough you could find reasonable people, however these days my general opinion is that most people are gold fish with short attention spans who only care about what new shiny thing they happen to see, and only remember you as long as your in front of their fishy little eye balls. Yes, I admit I am quite cynical, but bare in mind this comes from a great deal of experience, also I'll freely admit that I got hugely, stupidly amazingly lucky in running into my best friend and getting married to her, but unfortunately it seems that the hollywood cliche of "us against the world" seems very much true.Oh, and as for blind people, well its a little difficult when most blind organisations are pretty exclusively aimed at people age 60 and over, and those rare occasions you run into younger blind people they're usually graduates of braille jails. suffice it to say, people are a problem. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435564/#p435564 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Again as I said in the socialisation topic, it depends upon the people. Frankly yes the prevalence of funny videos and conversations that basically are just variations on the "h look at that" theme are down right depressing. However, if you can firstly find intelligent people with actual interests in common, and secondly actually engage with those people, then things can work out, the trouble is those are both pretty huge ifs and not necessarily dependent upon you. You can be as charming and competent and witty and well dressed as you like, but if the group of people or dynamics or interests or hell just the atmosphere is wrong your on to a none starter and there's nothing you can do about it, particularly since just because you happen to get something right with some people for a short while, since those people always have the option to leave and find more friends elsewhere pretty easily, don't expect them to actually give a rat's rear end about keeping in contact once you're out of their immediate sphere of influence.My really good experiences at uni and with my role playing friends used to make me believe that if you tried long enough you could find reasonable people, however these days my general opinion is that most people are gold fish with short attention spans who only care about what new shiny thing they happen to see, and only remember you as long as your in front of their fishy little eye balls. Yes, I admit I am quite cynical, but bare in mind this comes from a great deal of experience, also I'll freely admit that I got hugely, stupidly amazingly lucky in running into my best friend and getting married to her, but unfortunately it seems that the hollywood cliche of "us against the world" seems very much true. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435564/#p435564 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Hello,On the question of being included or excluded, I think a lot depends on who are you surrounded by and on what situations occurs the interaction with those that you communicate. For the past seven years, I'd say 95% of my overall interaction has been with sighted people. The only time I am in contact with a blind person is when I talk on the phone to someone who needs my help in regard to a technology-related issue; something which I do voluntarily almost everyday.Being in settings where blindness is never a matter of concern, I have to adjust to the life of those whom I am surrounded by. So in this respect, I have learnt to talk about things that to me are completely trivial, like how I was almost meeting a well-known VIP but he had left 5 minutes before I reached the airport. This to me doesn't make any sense at all but it's just to keep the conversation going. Everyone who is sighted does it, so why shouldn't I?Another thing that gets me angry is when my friends start talking about traveling. It's not that I haven't traveled enough; its because I don't focus on those things that sighted counterparts do. So let's say I'm on holiday with three sighted friends, and we sit in a prestigious bar beside a beautiful lake. We start discussing about the design of that bar; and while my friends will talk about the design of the tyles, how the lights of the bar contrast with the landscape of the lake, I will talk about the calm atmosphere that the little waves from the lake create and how relaxed you feel over there. I have to think about those things that I can't conceptualise very well so as not to seem uninterested, indifferent, or bored of the conversation.Then we go to the instagram thingy which I hate, so . . . soo much.So I never thought of creating an Instagram profile, simply because I felt I don't belong to that network of people. It seemed a completely crazy idea because it just wouldn't make sense to me how could I make use of it. Everyone in my class had an instagram profile. All of my cousins and relatives had one, from the youngest to the oldest. My brain was stormed daily with things like how beautiful was Jane's story, how John's friends were having the time of their life in an excursion, and so on. And, not to forget, in every meeting I would have with some new people, I would always get the question: do you guys have like . . Insstagram? So I went ahead and set up a profile on instagram and started exploring. Basically, I found anyone and everyone I had met and come across in my life there. I started following people and they would follow me back. I would check in special places and post photos from there. I go to some new place, take a picture and ask my brother which is the best photo to post. This idea, in its entirety, seems totally fake to me. In every photo people post, they are never themselves. It looks as if they are posing for an international magazine and the next day they will be talked about all over the world. I post photos almost weekly; sometimes sitting at a bar, sometimes playing with a dog, and sometimes traveling with a friend. I don't like the idea, as I said, however I don't know why I keep doing it. Perhaps because everyone in my community does it?So, do I feel excluded? I'd say yes and no. I could say I do feel really excluded in some situations, especially when going at a party where it is quite difficult to keep up with what's happening around. Nevertheless, I don't feel excluded at a lecture or seminar. Even in those things that contain much visual content or in those activities which require sight to be understood, I don't feel quite excluded because I know that I can't do anything about it, so I use my imagination to speculate what's going on. It could be never correct, but at least it stimulates your mind. I can hardly ever remember any case where I felt ignored when voicing my opinion at class. Generally, since I was always a good student, my classmates perceived me as quite competent and reliable so they must have thought he should be right. In a family setting, on the other hand, ignoring has been much more common for me. It surely tends to get me upset, but when my family members meet with my constant persistence, they give up. This attitude is almost always unproductive, but that's how I was grown to be. They taught me to be confident, to believe in myself and my principals, to keep and keep going despite obstacles, and so on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435533/#p435533 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I tend to overthink things like these in my head, and then I end up just becoming depressed by them. As an example, I ended up having to repeat my current school year. I attend a school that offers a major in pop music, and before, I used to be in aclass of great musicians. The thing about them was that they of course had social media in their lives like most other people my age. However, it wasn't defining. They wouldn't spend hours talking about the latest meme compelations or uploads to their friend's snapchat stories. You could have meaningful discussions with almost all of them regarding politics, music, or hell, any old random topic of life. Sure, I had my difficulties regarding eye contact and fitting in, but my peers showed exceptional maturity for their age. I knew and felt that they saw past the blind guy with the white cane who uses a laptop and braille display instead of a pen and paper. If we ever went somewhere, I could depend on them. This is definitely not the case with the new environment. These people still play music, but they aren't musicians. For most of them their heart doesn't seem to be in it. Image based social media and funny videos are a much more popular topic of discussion, along with the forming of groups. There's far less of a sense for community, and more of an "overyone out for themselves" feeling. Similarly to the experiences described in post 9, I often get skipped over when questions are asked that I could answer in favor of someone else who is sighted. People are in general less likely to look past the blindness thing or even to be curious about it, especially girls. I end up being left behind more than taken along, and I don't get asked to go places. IfI do go somewhere these days, it's usually with a family member in attendance because I can't manage to find someone who will guide me. I know this shouldn't be a big problem but for someone my age, it doesn't look particularly good, especially when you're doing your best to try and show how independant you are. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435522/#p435522 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? You know what they say, "the smallest things can make the biggest difference." The irony here is that this saying usually connotes small pleasantries leading to us feeling good or making our day. In your case, it's quite the opposite, and it's perfectly valid you feel that way when being brushed off. Though it might seem microscopic compared to life's other woes, feeling unappreciated or invalidated is a slippery slope and can quickly lead to the lowering of self-esteem. This has to hurt even more-so coming from a coworker.I'm very sorry you have to deal with that. Like you, I'm rather shy and tend to be more reserved and not make any jolting remarks, even if I feel I am in the right to do so. It's especially more difficult when there's a convention/protocol to how you should behave in your environment, and this is true particularly of professional workplaces. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435467/#p435467 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Man, another great post! I completely agree with everything you wrote. Yes, there's an inherent desire to want to be a part of society, what with certain generations setting the trend for popular culture and such. More power to you if you can ignore it and develop your own trends in what you deem popular, but more and more people flock to new technology, innovations, and especially those incorporating a social aspect. It is a bit disheartening when some groups are excluded because of its nature to be a certain way. Ok. Another thing, maybe along the same lines, is interaction with people who are not blind. I first want to say that I am going to show a bit of my vulnerability by stating what follows. Also, I want to emphasize that I in no way have had difficulty interacting with non-blind people. However, that being said, it is also disheartening when I, as a software professional, am trying very hard to communicate with people at a workplace, only to be ignored at times. At least, that's how I perceive it.For example, the other day, I was working on addressing a bug, and someone had a question that I knew I would have been able to answer simply because it was the very thing I was working on, and a coworker immediately resorted to asking another coworker of mine for their input. The coworker who was being asked sits right next to me! lol And of course, me being a shy, but assertive person when appropriate, put myself out there and proceeded to provide my input as well. I wasn't being intrusive about it. I just commented with what I believe to have been a really good response. Then, the coworker who asked the question simply said something along the lines of, "Uh-Huh, thank you." I returned to my work. However, the coworker that asked his question proceeded to verify the response he received from the coworker that sits next to me, seemingly disregarding my contribution altogether. After that, I became a bit sad because I felt like I wasn't being valued. Perhaps there are other factors at play. but it is my belief that this kind of thing happening can be attributed to the fact that I am blind. Perhaps lack of eye contact might make me seem incompetent. Oh, and I want to point out that I'm the only blind person in the office. And this isn't the first time it's happened to me. I know it's not too big a deal, and I do get over it. It doesn't mean I don't get upset when it happens. Similar situations have arisen like that in meetings too, leading to the whole exclusion concept. And sometimes, I do get discouraged from contributing. Although, I will say, I do get praised quite often for doing great work. But moments like those are very discouraging.Sorry, I think I used the word "coworker" too much in that example, but it's late, and I wanted to type this up before sleeping. lol I just wanted to provide a small example of what I feel in my life could be considered being excluded from something. I guess I'm both glad and saddened that there are others who can relate to some of what I go through.Oh, and I wanted to add that in the example, or in general, it's not that I don't provide eye contact. I definitely turn in the direction of the person when they're talking and try my best. But as a totally blind person, it's rather difficult to achieve full and direct eye contact, especially since I never really had vision before. Well, technically I have, but that's another story. lol URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435462/#p435462 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Man, another great post! I completely agree with everything you wrote. Yes, there's an inherent desire to want to be a part of society, what with certain generations setting the trend for popular culture and such. More power to you if you can ignore it and develop your own trends in what you deem popular, but more and more people flock to new technology, innovations, and especially those incorporating a social aspect. It is a bit disheartening when some groups are excluded because of its nature to be a certain way. Ok. Another thing, maybe along the same lines, is interaction with people who are not blind. I first want to say that I am going to show a bit of my vulnerability by stating what follows. Also, I want to emphasize that I in no way have had difficulty interacting with non-blind people. However, that being said, it is also disheartening when I, as a software professional, am trying very hard to communicate with people at a workplace, only to be ignored at times. At least, that's how I perceive it.For example, the other day, I was working on addressing a bug, and someone had a question that I knew I would have been able to answer simply because it was the very thing I was working on, and a coworker immediately resorted to asking another coworker of mine for their input. The coworker who was being asked sits right next to me! lol And of course, me being a shy, but assertive person when appropriate, put myself out there and proceeded to provide my input as well. I wasn't being intrusive about it. I just commented with what I believe to have been a really good response. Then, the coworker who asked the question simply said something along the lines of, "Uh-Huh, thank you." I returned to my work. However, the coworker that asked his question proceeded to verify the response he received from the coworker that sits next to me, seemingly disregarding my contribution altogether. After that, I became a bit sad because I felt like I wasn't being valued. Perhaps there are other factors at play. but it is my belief that this kind of thing happening can be attributed to the fact that I am blind. Perhaps lack of eye contact might make me seem incompetent. Oh, and I want to point out that I'm the only blind person in the office. And this isn't the first time it's happened to me. I know it's not too big a deal, and I do get over it. It doesn't mean I don't get upset when it happens. Similar situations have arisen like that in meetings too, leading to the whole exclusion concept. And sometimes, I do get discouraged from contributing. Although, I will say, I do get praised quite often for doing great work. But moments like those are very discouraging.Sorry, I think I used the word "coworker" too much in that example, but it's late, and I wanted to type this up before sleeping. lol I just wanted to provide a small example of what I feel in my life could be considered being excluded from something. I guess I'm both glad and saddened that there are others who can relate to some of what I go through. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435462/#p435462 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @5I wish there was a resource or community for these types of discussions. They are one of the biggest reasons why I continue to return to the forum. Maybe it's because I'm at that point in my life where these are the types of things that are on my mind. I'm surrounded by people with sight and likely will be for a long time, so I don't really know many blind people. (especially ones with life experience) I have a lot of interest in topics like this and seeing other views and opinions/how others handle and approach disadvantages like these. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435444/#p435444 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? I don't have much trouble with the social media side of things because quite frankly I find it really shallow that people are just posting memes about how they feel now instead of writing it out. If it weren't for the fact that there are a couple people and groups whom I follow, and there are business opportunities that I want to take advantage of, I would feel no qualms about deleting my social media.Where I find I feel the most excluded in life is just being able to go places on a whim, with or without people. Yes, there are ways to get from point a to point b, even in a smaller town like where I live, but just to get to and from work costs me $20 on Uber, so do I really want to pay the same to go to the store? Or even I had to take a class to keep my massage license, and the class was down near Chicago. No trains ran directly there so I had to Uber. That was $80 one way, for two days, in edition to the cost of the class which was $400, so again, do I really want to spend that kind of money if it isn't a necessity?ON top of that, I feel weird saying to someone, "Hey, do you want to go to this thing this weekend? Oh, and you'll have to drive." I feel like they would eventually feel like I'm taking advantage of them., and oddly enough, nobody I know says, "Hey, do you want to come out for a couple drinks tonight?" So, there you go, I'm not going to put effort into something when other people aren't going to do the same. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435440/#p435440 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? @2, great point. In all reality, the sighted realm deals with this internally. Musicians won't click well with sports buffs, artsy people won't mesh well with computer geeks, etc. I'm obviously wildly stereotyping here, but I take your point and believe it to be true of people in general. The blindness is just another way, an exasperated one at that, where those who are blind have their own general interests and sighted people have theirs. The only answer to the sting, imo, is reflected in the attitude I expressed in my other thread, "you can't worry about people not liking you for you. You have to learn to not let it sting so much." I stand by that, but not without saying that it sucks and can be hard and deterring. A one-size-fits-all bias slips in there, so I usually don't bother telling people that whenever they struggle in social situations -- it's just a mantra I myself live by.It's honestly strange. I can have perfectly nice and flowing conversations with some people sometimes, and other times, it's hard. I guess it goes back to that "find people you connect with" thing, but again, that's hard to do. Blindness's impact on people's ability to get out, meet others, and do it in a way that isn't screaming "hey! Where's the door? I'm blind! Help me!" to those people is super tricky.I've said it time and time again, and I'll say it once more: I'm lucky. I struggle, yes, but I have friends and strong relationships with a few people. I'm not the only one who feels this way, but I would like to have more, or at least the option to have more. Maybe it isn't just about those channels being inaccessible or unusable. Maybe it's more about the fact that I can't use it, and that's what bothers me. Perhaps if those channels were accessible, I wouldn't even use them. Plenty of sighted people still don't use them, believe it or not. Coincidentally, those are the ones I usually connect with more. Again, coincidence, no causal relationship there, lol. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435438/#p435438 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Topics like these are precisely why I keep on believing in our community. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435437/#p435437 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? Very well said. I absolutely agree with all of this. You put it very well when you explained that it's not so much the blindness that you have a problem with, it's the impact it has on communicating with others. I share the same thoughts about feeling somewhat excluded when it comes to the image based social networks and how they are the primary form of communicating for most people my age. When meeting/getting to know each other, a lot of sighted people my age share their Snapchat and Instagram names in the same way people used to share phone numbers. Rather than texting, for the most part they send each other gifs and images. My sisters use social media a lot, and they often talk about their stories. Feeling excluded from people online is one thing, but it adds a lot more depth when you feel like a third wheel with family. It's not that I can't relate to them at all, but it just feels like an experience that I can't be a part of. When it comes to the other topic you posted about social situations, my view sits more on the pessimistic side. A lot of the foundation for that consists of what you outline here. Sighted friends I've had in the past were able to relate to my audio-based interests to a degree, but that's all. It's just disappointing to see a friend having a more enjoyable experience with someone else over an interest that I can't be a part of. I find enjoyment out of socialization however I can, but all of these things sit in the back of my mind. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435429/#p435429 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? yeah meme culture is one of those things we would have no clue over but which is just so popular these days. It definitely is one area where we are not included because of how visual it is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435428/#p435428 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Do you feel excluded?
Re: Do you feel excluded? The other side of the coin is, do sighted people just nod along politely and do their best to keep the peace as hard as we do when we talk about things that blind people tend to be into primarily, such as sound design, audio games, music, etc.? I actually had a sighted person tell me once that it was no wonder that a blind person would be passionate about music, but that he, and many others he knew, just saw it as background noise, but never paid much attention to it. It was an honest perspective, I wasn't insulted by it at all, but it did get me thinking. I wonder if the average sighted person, once they meet a blind person of course, struggles with this to some degree as well? And, if they do, what does it take to bridge the gap? In short, I definitely agree that this is a problem, but I don't know what, if anything can be done to make it sting less when it does happen. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/435420/#p435420 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
