Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
My respect for Mr Westlake has been restored: 'My Rohde Schwarz UPD audio analyser seems to be having issues with its Jitter measurement option - so I'll refrain from saying any-more until about Jitter levels until I can confirm its performance. Logitech have gone to more trouble then usual to insure reasonably low Jitter levels on the Digital output - they HAVE resynchronised the SPDIF date with the Master clock, a nice touch for a Consumer product'. -- Covenant Covenant's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=36495 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
Mnyb;686234 Wrote: Yes I read that post to very helpfull of john s, no need to cry wolf rigth now then ? But does anyone have jitter measurment from the spdiff ? I'm painfully aware of the fact that seem to be many ways of measuring it . Stereophiles measurments is done via the analog outs. Can you assume that a device with reasonably ok jitter on the analog out also must have ok jitter at the spdiff out ? They may differ ,but 10/1 or 100/1 difference ? Edit: just curius I do get that it is only the end result that counts if the connected dac can fix it so that it's analog out is the same as with a better source the source jitter did not matter. My Touch, before mods, measured by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio, from SPDIF out: The P-P Jitter below 1MHz was 300psec, which is WAY less than the quoted measurement in OP -- firedog GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running Vortexbox OS; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-DAC-V3, MF X-150 as pre-amp, Grant Fidelity B-283MKII bufferClassDaudio SDS-470 amp; Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Perhaps a basic book on how computers work would also be helpful? At least something to help get through the fact nothing ... No amount of tinkering... You can do to the operating system and the hardware it is running on can ever change the data content of the IP packets being sent from an LMS server to a player... And that DATA is all there is ... Just data... No clocks, no analogue components of any sort... NOTHING. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Phil Leigh;686255 Wrote: Perhaps a basic book on how computers work would also be helpful? At least something to help get through the fact nothing ... No amount of tinkering... You can do to the operating system and the hardware it is running on can ever change the data content of the IP packets being sent from an LMS server to a player... And that DATA is all there is ... Just data... No clocks, no analogue components of any sort... NOTHING. what is your theory of why people hear differences when running Fidelizer ? Is it just me and Soundcheck and the Fidelizer developer that can hear an improvement ? -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
I don't know what a audiophile redneck is, but I appreciate being in the company of so many world experts in audiophile digital theory that have decided, like me, to splash out on the only bit perfect digital stramer in the universe and only £200, bargain. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686263 Wrote: what is your theory of why people hear differences when running Fidelizer ? Is it just me and Soundcheck and the Fidelizer developer that can hear an improvement ? The other two haven't posted here directly about this IIRC. As to why YOU hear things sounding differently... I have no idea. Whatever it is you are hearing, it is neither measurable nor understandable using conventional science. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
firedog;686254 Wrote: It's pretty clear that as As far as jitter, some DACs handle it better than others, but in spite of claims, no DAC eliminates it or is immune to it. With a significantly better source (lower noise or less jitter) sent to your DAC, you should hear a difference, assuming reasonable ears and audio system. In other words, the digital source matters. You make two statements which are different Firedog. The first one is purely about jitter, and I disagree with that one. There are DACs that eliminate jitter e.g. Benchmark. Yes it's a claim as you put it, but unlike your claim Benchmark publish measurements as evidence for their claim. (Not that you could publish measurements for every DAC anyway...) As for your second statement, which is about jitter and noise, I don't know about that area. Regards, Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686264 Wrote: I don't know what a audiophile redneck is, but I appreciate being in the company of so many world experts in audiophile digital theory that have decided, like me, to splash out on the only bit perfect digital stramer in the universe and only £200, bargain. It's not the only bit-perfect device out there... What makes it so attractive is that it is completely isolated from the behaviour of the underlying data server. This makes it very different to those otherwise similar devices that put everything in one box. The computer running LMS is totally irrelevant (it could even be in a different universe, powered by steam) - all it is doing is serving IP packets to a network. Provided that the server is galvanically isolated from the Touch - and you have to try quite hard for it not to be! - there is no known mechanism by which the server operating system/hardware can degrade the audio behaviour of the Touch. This is the complete opposite of people who run USB-SPDIF interfaces or soundcards connected to computers - in these situations, the operating system/computer hardware can definitely degrade the behaviour of those interfaces. It seems, however, that there is a clear lack of understanding about these two worlds and why you can't apply the logic and experiences of one to the other. As to why people hear what they hear - that is impossible to answer because human hearing is not not measurable except in crude terms of frequency response and dynamic range. What the brain does with its sensory inputs is currently impossible to fully understand or measure - but clearly it varies wildly from person to person. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
darrenyeats;686270 Wrote: You make two statements which are different Firedog. The first one is purely about jitter, and I disagree with that one. There are DACs that eliminate jitter e.g. Benchmark. Yes it's a claim as you put it, but unlike your claim Benchmark publish measurements as evidence for their claim. (Not that you could publish measurements for every DAC anyway...) As for your second statement, which is about jitter and noise, I don't know about that area. Regards, Darren I stand by my claim. The Benchmark doesn't eliminate jitter. It's a marketing claim. If it is fed a jittery signal, there are methods for improving the result, but the jitter isn't eliminated. In real life there isn't digital audio with NO jitter. Low jitter, yes. NO jitter, sorry. http://www.head-fi.org/t/465286/does-the-benchmark-dac1-or-any-dac-eliminate-all-jitter http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Reclocking-DAC-immune-transport-jitter -- firedog GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. Tranquil PC fanless server running Vortexbox OS; SB Touch slaved to Empirical Audio Pace Car; MF X-DAC-V3, MF X-150 as pre-amp, Grant Fidelity B-283MKII bufferClassDaudio SDS-470 amp; Devore Gibbon Super 8 Speakers; Dual 506 + Ortofon M20 (occasional use); sometimes use PC with M-Audio 192 as digital source. SB Boom in second room. Arcam CD82 which I don't use anymore, even though it's a very good player. firedog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11550 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Soundcheck, If you are going to put forward proposals for tweaks to the server side in TT4.0 then be careful not to post about it in this forum, my thread detailing such changes has been closed as the discussion was deemed stupid. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
evdplancke;686215 Wrote: I think you are right. If I remember well the theory, given a signal to noise ratio and a type of modulation, we can calculate the probability of error (bit error rate). When we add noise to a signal, this probability is very close but not equal to 0. The question is: at what level the bit error rate becomes audible? can we hear a bit error rate of 1E-10 for instance? Another question: is a DAC totally immune to analog noise that is added to its digital input (EMI, temperature noise,...)? I would tend to say no, if there is no galvanic isolation between input and output. Am I wrong? If not, this could explain why source CPU load could have indirect incidence on analog output noise. Bit perfect means that the signal can be almost perfectly reconstructed when there is a good jitter rejection but the noise of the DAC circuitry should be added to the signal including potential noise transferred from the input if any. Which is why it is important to galvanically isolate the Touch. There are three routes in: 1) the spdif coax connection - noise can be transferred back from the DAC - use Toslink or at least use a DAC that has a transformer isolated input stage 2) the ethernet connection - use wireless, or use a properly isolated ethernet cable (not screened at both ends) or use an ethernet isolater like this: http://www.blackbox.co.uk/product/sp426a/4/6/1/ 3) the power supply -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
firedog;686274 Wrote: I stand by my claim. The Benchmark doesn't eliminate jitter. It's a marketing claim. If it is fed a jittery signal, there are methods for improving the result, but the jitter isn't eliminated. In real life there isn't digital audio with NO jitter - by definition. Low jitter, yes. NO jitter, sorry. Try to find someone in the field other than Benchmark that thinks jitter can be totally eliminated - you won't. Because the D/A conversion will always have at least a little. http://www.head-fi.org/t/465286/does-the-benchmark-dac1-or-any-dac-eliminate-all-jitter http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Reclocking-DAC-immune-transport-jitter You are correct - jitter cannot be eliminated because it is always present to some extent. What can be done in the DAC design is to minimise the impact that residual jitter has on outbound sound quality. The fact remains that some DAC's do this better than others. How well a DAC does this is not always a function of DAC cost. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
In practice is this really a problem , that audiophiles regularly reports it as a problem in their anecdotes is one thing . But if it's still below our limit of detection ? that limit of detections, when someone point to facts from a real test, in this fora and other forums suggest that modern well behaved products have magnitudes lower jitter than that . What seems to happen (my conjecture ) is that high frequency jitter is reduced to benign low freq jitter or very low freq jitter. very slow timing variations . Another angle . Squeezeboxes can be synced it's done by keeping the playback rate similar in two players by constantly adjusting the playback rates . If you silence one player volume=0 does the remaining synced player sound worse to you ? has anyone measured this ? this effect would mimic slow jitter or at least a timing defect ? -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
Mnyb;686234 Wrote: Can you assume that a device with reasonably ok jitter on the analog out also must have ok jitter at the spdiff out ? They may differ ,but 10/1 or 100/1 difference ? I'm probably entirely wrong here as this is not an area where I have any expertise, but I always *thought* from reading a bit that jitter was only a possible issue in the context of digital transmission (the bits and the timing of the bits.clock, etc.). I didn't think that ANALOG had jitter concerns. Other things can affect the analog signal for sure, but jitter? Just asking.. -- garym *Location 1:* VB Appliance 6TB (1.10) LMS 7.7.1 Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Location 2:* VB Appliance 3TB (2.0) LMS 7.7.1 Touch Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Office:* Win7(64) LMS 7.7.1 SqueezePlay Retired: SB3, Duet Receiver Controllers: iPhone (iPeng), iPad (iPengHD SqueezePad), CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Additional Tagging - mp3tag garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Phil Leigh;686269 Wrote: The other two haven't posted here directly about this IIRC. As to why YOU hear things sounding differently... I have no idea. Whatever it is you are hearing, it is neither measurable nor understandable using conventional science. Phil, If you won't try it then would you accept an invitation to come to hear it at my house next time you're in Gloucestershire. There is most definately an improvement in the sound with Fidelizer and the Windows 7 tweaks, in my system at least. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
garym;686291 Wrote: I'm probably entirely wrong here as this is not an area where I have any expertise, but I always *thought* from reading a bit that jitter was only a possible issue in the context of digital transmission (the bits and the timing of the bits.clock, etc.). I didn't think that ANALOG had jitter concerns. Other things can affect the analog signal for sure, but jitter? Just asking.. it comes from the digital interface but it shows up on the analog side , they are measuring sidebands to a test tone sometimes ? Looks almost as the old graphs of analog tape decks wov and flutter Yes the timing deviation if large enough should show as some kind of modulation of the signal . Sometimes they are measuring the time deviation directly in a digital interface . Sure it modulates the DAC otherwise it would not be a concern . They interesting question is if in this day an age is a big enough problem to lose any sleep over . If designed DAC's i would give it a lot of attention as i would have the product perform well with any source. Imho it's is in practice solved for end users , use a good dac :) enjoy the music -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
Mnyb;686294 Wrote: Imho it's is in practice solved for end users , use a good dac :) enjoy the music ;-) Agree (thus my use of Transporter or Touch Benchmark I DAC in my two main listening locations) -- garym *Location 1:* VB Appliance 6TB (1.10) LMS 7.7.1 Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Location 2:* VB Appliance 3TB (2.0) LMS 7.7.1 Touch Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Office:* Win7(64) LMS 7.7.1 SqueezePlay Retired: SB3, Duet Receiver Controllers: iPhone (iPeng), iPad (iPengHD SqueezePad), CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.7 on Win7(64) laptop Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Additional Tagging - mp3tag garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;686276 Wrote: Which is why it is important to galvanically isolate the Touch. There are three routes in: 1) the spdif coax connection - noise can be transferred back from the DAC - use Toslink or at least use a DAC that has a transformer isolated input stage 2) the ethernet connection - use wireless, or use a properly isolated ethernet cable (not screened at both ends) or use an ethernet isolater like this: http://www.blackbox.co.uk/product/sp426a/4/6/1/ 3) the power supply Thank you for the advice. If I understand you well, if those 3 conditions are not perfectly met,you admit implicitly that some kind of noise can be transmitted from the source to the DAC output. However these consideration seems to be based on the assumption that the noise is coming from external sources (ground noise from cables and power supply) and not from the signal path. But considering that a digital signal is a perfectly square wave + noise, we should also consider that some of the noise from the signal path can also be transferred to DAC output. Sources of this added noise are typically jitter, temperature noise and any kind of signal interference caused by PSU, CPU processing,... Even with signal reshaping, the return path for this noise should be isolated from DAC output. In the same logic, I don't know how optocouplers work, but do they produce perfect square waves at their electrical output as well? if not, they would also transfer the noise from the signal path, even if they provide perfect galvanic isolation. I don't want to raise polemic, but from my point of view, there are a lot of unanswered questions about handling of the noise in the reconstruction of the analog signal that I can not admit the bit perfect argument alone to conclude that a digital source noise has no impact on analog output noise. And if I remember well Phil, you are the only one on this forum that objectivated by quantitative measurements that tt3.0 mods have an incidence on DAC output signal (weither it is audible or not is another topic). -- evdplancke evdplancke's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43147 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Truths
Mnyb;686119 Wrote: Not from tnt audio ? They are suspect to imho. Suspect? I don't now. About skin effect, I checked the skin depth for copper at 20khz. It is 0,5 mm! That means smaller than the radius of AWG 18. Skin effect becomes therefore relevant for anything thicker than AWG 18 !!! So at least on this topic this is no nonsense. -- evdplancke evdplancke's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43147 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93111 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686292 Wrote: Phil, If you won't try it then would you accept an invitation to come to hear it at my house next time you're in Gloucestershire. There is most definately an improvement in the sound with Fidelizer and the Windows 7 tweaks, in my system at least. Hey - I never said I wouldn't try it... later... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
SBGK;686275 Wrote: Soundcheck, If you are going to put forward proposals for tweaks to the server side in TT4.0 then be careful not to post about it in this forum, my thread detailing such changes has been closed as the discussion was deemed stupid. Look. There is slight difference between you and me. Sometimes I have the feeling you don't see that. The whole Toolbox thing has been my very own idea and work. Server and network tweaks do have quite a long history on my blog. WLAN off as the first network tweak was one of my very first tweaks. Then you'll find several others mods that also relate to the network and server. And... ...surprise, surprise my threads still exist. And I'm not banned. This TT3.0 thread only has meanwhile close to 10 hits (probably one of the highest hitcounts/time in this forum). Threads like that keep a forum going. I do think TT4.0 wouldn't cause less attention. It's not me who gotta problem. Please don't forget: All this discussion is not about your constructive and partly valuable contributions. The message you received is crystal clear, isn't it: It's all about attitude and respect. (Yep. Something like that exists, even in the virtual world.) Look. You even started trying to accuse me of certain things recently. That's not what I call a nice attiude. In my own forum I would have banned you for that kind of attitude. I can tell you. The way you act won't let you make many friends. If your own thread is not even able to survive the audiophile section over here @ SB forums, you better change your attitude or you look for a different place to post your findings. BTW: I never filed a complaint. Interesting to see that others did. I really hope that we can stop all these nasty discussions and go on with more constructive part of the project. Thx. Enjoy. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686292 Wrote: Phil, If you won't try it then would you accept an invitation to come to hear it at my house next time you're in Gloucestershire. There is most definately an improvement in the sound with Fidelizer and the Windows 7 tweaks, in my head at least. I had to fix your statement for you... PS) The Fidelizer developer most likely doesn't run LMS and squeezeboxen. So it's just you and soundcheck on this one. -- Jeff Flowerday Jeff Flowerday's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15883 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
I did some listening tests of my own to see what quality level my SBT is at out of the box via analog outs. I have to be honest I didn't find a large difference between the same music on phono vs the SBT. There is enough that I will try a DAC possibly, as there was two suttle differences in the music I played. As a background, the two sources consisted of a turntable - phono preamp - amp, then a SBT to amp. Both of these connected to the same length and brand of analog cable to keep things consistent. The LP was a newly released Let it Bleed by the Rolling Stones, 180 gram DSD remastered and an HDtracks high res FLAC in 24 bit/96 kHz. The SBT was set to the same volume level as the phono, and both albums were played simultaneously to allow switching back and forth. The resulting audio while very similar, had two distinct differences. the analog turntable clearly being the winner, the only shortcoming I found with the SBT was a less natural sounding high frequency (lp sound was a bit more sweet if that's a phrase in audio.) and a lack of presence ( or air) to the music, though peculiarly a touch more bottom end. To make a long story short, the tambourine on You Can't always get what you want sounded like it was actually in front of me via the turntable, though while very clear, the same tambourine on the SBT sounded more like a tambourine recording. Will an external DAC bring this unit closer to an analog sound I witness through a turntable? Perhaps; but I am going to do a second test using the TT 3.0 through the analog, to test the theory that these tweaks actually bring your music closer to an analog sound than the stock. Which I assume is the point of this thread. The tweaks are free unlike a DAC, so I will try these first. -- Munroe Munroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52982 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
firedog;686274 Wrote: I stand by my claim. The Benchmark doesn't eliminate jitter. It's a marketing claim. If it is fed a jittery signal, there are methods for improving the result, but the jitter isn't eliminated. In real life there isn't digital audio with NO jitter - by definition. Low jitter, yes. NO jitter, sorry. Try to find someone in the field other than Benchmark that thinks jitter can be totally eliminated - you won't. Because the D/A conversion will always have at least a little. http://www.head-fi.org/t/465286/does-the-benchmark-dac1-or-any-dac-eliminate-all-jitter http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Reclocking-DAC-immune-transport-jitter I think there is a confusion here which can only be overcome by tightening up slightly what we are talking about. The issue is whether a dac can perform independently of (ie be unaffected by) transport and interface jitter. Conventional digital audio theory has it that it can and can fairly easily. This is the raison d'etre of digital communications- the information can be perfectly recovered despite noise. Benchmark have shown results from hugely long cables which audiophile theory would suggest must be terribly jittery but leave no imprint on the output. Slightly confusingly the typical j test shows the total jitter at the anlog out and does not distinguish between interface jitter and the inherent jitter of the dac. It is true to say that a dac is bound to have some *inherent jitter* which will affect D/A conversion- this must be true becasue the DAC can't have a 100% accurate clock. BUT a dac *can* be immune to interface/trasnport jitter within reason. Within reason here means within several nanoseconds at which point it is impossible to read the data accurately because the clock transitions actually overlap. Many DAC manufactuerers and text books will make this claim. I am pretty saue i have quoted them on this forum some time ago. Look at this quote from the naim website about the naim dac http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-product-type/583 In terms of system topology, the DAC's rotating memory is analogous to a rotating CD feeding raw data to be reclocked. The rate at which the memory fills and empties is controlled by the DAC automatically selecting the oscillator that matches the average incoming clock frequency. The data entering the downstream digital filtering and DAC chips is then completely isolated from the incoming S/PDIF jitter. Incidentally If you look at the results from the weiss 202 on the sterophile website it appears to all intents and purposes to have no discernible jitter. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Munroe;686307 Wrote: I did some listening tests of my own to see what quality level my SBT is at out of the box via analog outs. I have to be honest I didn't find a large difference between the same music on phono vs the SBT. There is enough that I will try a DAC possibly, as there was two suttle differences in the music I played. As a background, the two sources consisted of a turntable - phono preamp - amp, then a SBT to amp. Both of these connected to the same length and brand of analog cable to keep things consistent. The LP was a newly released Let it Bleed by the Rolling Stones, 180 gram DSD remastered and an HDtracks high res FLAC in 24 bit/96 kHz. The SBT was set to the same volume level as the phono, and both albums were played simultaneously to allow switching back and forth. The resulting audio while very similar, had two distinct differences. the analog turntable clearly being the winner, the only shortcoming I found with the SBT was a less natural sounding high frequency (lp sound was a bit more sweet if that's a phrase in audio.) and a lack of presence ( or air) to the music, though peculiarly a touch more bottom end. To make a long story short, the tambourine on You Can't always get what you want sounded like it was actually in front of me via the turntable, though while very clear, the same tambourine on the SBT sounded more like a tambourine recording. Will an external DAC bring this unit closer to an analog sound I witness through a turntable? Perhaps; but I am going to do a second test using the TT 3.0 through the analog, to test the theory that these tweaks actually bring your music closer to an analog sound than the stock. Which I assume is the point of this thread. The tweaks are free unlike a DAC, so I will try these first. Interesting as this is, you are comparing two wildly different masterings... so unfortunately it doesn't tell us very much other than you clearly prefer one mastering over the other (which is fine). It certainly says nothing about the relative sonic merits of the Touch and your turntable/catridge/phono pre-amp... A much better test would be to compare a good rip of YOUR LP against the LP. Whenever I have done this - approx 150 times - I have never heard the Touch sound worse - it has always sounded slightly better and the reason is because the vinyl playback suffers from the effects of acoustic feedback which the rip doesn't (unless it was done badly - i.e. with the sound playing through the speakers!) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
evdplancke;686215 Wrote: I think you are right. If I remember well the theory, given a signal to noise ratio and a type of modulation, we can calculate the probability of error (bit error rate). When we add noise to a signal, this probability is very close but not equal to 0. The question is: at what level the bit error rate becomes audible? can we hear a bit error rate of 1E-10 for instance? There have been tests done to show bit perfect transmission to the dac. Weiss dacs can do this. I belive that it has been confirmed on other dacs and in other ways that transmission is bit perfect. SPDIF contatins AFAIK error detection bits (buit not error correction). I am not convinced that there is any reason why there shopul dnot be perfect recovery of all data provided that the trasnitions are not mixed up (which requires serval ns of jitter). This old paper concludes that amplitude errors through noise are unlikely http://www.scalatech.co.uk/papers/aes93.pdf . It refers to other papers on errors in transmission. But let's suppose that there was an error of one in 10,000,000,000? if there are 705k music information bits per second for one channel of 16/44, that suggest that one sample every 4 hours might be somewhat wrong (depending on whether it was the least or most significant bit). I can't see that this would account for any audible effect because any effect on the output would only last an instant and would probably be filtered out by the Anti imaging filter- if one sample value was significantly changed it would presumably have the effect once decoded of creating a very very high frequency sound which would eb filtered out. I had a look for an estimate of the bit error rate on spdif. I noted one forum where someone asserted the figure 10^-12 or 100 times lower than your figure. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
evdplancke;686296 Wrote: Thank you for the advice. If I understand you well, if those 3 conditions are not perfectly met,you admit implicitly that some kind of noise can be transmitted from the source to the DAC output. However these consideration seems to be based on the assumption that the noise is coming from external sources (ground noise from cables and power supply) and not from the signal path. But considering that a digital signal is a perfectly square wave + noise, we should also consider that some of the noise from the signal path can also be transferred to DAC output. Sources of this added noise are typically jitter, temperature noise and any kind of signal interference caused by PSU, CPU processing,... Even with signal reshaping, the return path for this noise should be isolated from DAC output. In the same logic, I don't know how optocouplers work, but do they produce perfect square waves at their electrical output as well? if not, they would also transfer the noise from the signal path, even if they provide perfect galvanic isolation. I don't want to raise polemic, but from my point of view, there are so many unanswered questions about handling of the noise in the reconstruction of the analog signal that I can not admit the bit perfect argument alone to conclude that a digital source noise has no impact on analog output noise. And if I remember well Phil, you are the only one on this forum that objectivated by quantitative measurements that tt3.0 mods have an incidence on DAC output signal (weither it is audible or not is another topic). Several points to cover here: 1) It's not exactly that the noise entering the DAC makes it through to the output - more that it can interfere with the correct operation of the DAC, resulting in an increase in distortion - which is what jitter does. 2) Yes the noise is coming in from external electrical sources - not sure what you mean by the signal path - there is no signal path INTO the Touch. It takes in IP packets which are just data and have NO noise inside them - they are simply pure data from the source music files. This is the great benefit of an IP-based streaming approach. Assuming data integrity - which is a computer thing and can be 100% verified (not an audio/hi-fi thing which can't!) there is nothing that can go wrong until we get inside the Touch itself. 3) The digital OUTPUT from the Touch is an analogue signal and can have embedded noise. This noise can get there from the outside sources I listed plus it can be generated within the Touch itself. This noise will be very low-level compared to the (s/pdif) signal. However, the DAC has to handle/reject this noise properly otherwise it will interfere with the reconstruction of the analogue signal by messing up the clock recovery. This is ALL it can do - it doesn't affect the bits in the bitstream - that would be easily detectable and it does NOT happen. So this noise CAN cause jitter (and thus distortion) if not handled well by the DAC. If this is the signal noise you refer to, then yes it is embedded in the s/pdif signal and will pass through galvanic isolators Different DAC's handle this input noise differently. Some are better than others. So, if you follow my advice (and it's not just me, It's been said by many others too!) you will minimise noise ENTERING the Touch. To minimise noise generated inside the Touch from entering the DAC there are 2 strategies: 1) ignore it and let the DAC handle it 2) use a device to clean the s/pdif signal between Touch and DAC In all cases, ensuring galvanic isolation between Touch and DAC is important to prevent all your hard work being accidentally undone by providing an alternative route for noise to pass between the two devices. Finally - yes, I did measure a change in the analogue outputs of a Touch with the TT mods. Iwas surprised by the results but I do not doubt them. I can see a scientific explanation of how they MIGHT make this change. Theoretically they might also make a difference to the signal noise on the disgital outputs, but as I've explained, to what extent this is audible depends entirely on the design and execution of your DAC. regards Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
... -- browellm Modwright Transporter Kondo M7 LV Argento Avantgarde Uno Nano http://www.last.fm/user/browellm browellm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
browellm;686325 Wrote: ... ? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Jeff Flowerday;686305 Wrote: I had to fix your statement for you... PS) The Fidelizer developer most likely doesn't run LMS and squeezeboxen. So it's just you and soundcheck on this one. There is probably some effect using Fidelizer if you actually listen to audio with your computer . I would certainly find some time to try if used my computer for music . which I did way back fiddling with asio and kernel streaming and stuff that where important if listens to the computer But this is exactly what your not doing when using a squeezebox . Why not just uninstall all sound drivers and devices from the pc, rip out the sound card to and the squeezebox will still play as it is not in any way connected to the sound system on the pc so tweaking the pc's sound system is irrelevant.. If one is afraid for server load one should definitely not transcode flac to wav on the server ;) -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
browellm;686330 Wrote: I was going to let rip, but decided it was unprintable and get me into trouble, so I deleted it :) Probably best then :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;686329 Wrote: ? I was going to let rip, but decided it was unprintable and get me into trouble, so I deleted it :) -- browellm Modwright Transporter Kondo M7 LV Argento Avantgarde Uno Nano http://www.last.fm/user/browellm browellm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Archimago;686240 Wrote: LOL, I don't know whether you're trying to be funny or offensive. I like the following though: So what does this make you? I see you've started a few threads here knowing full well the tendency towards objectivism with many of the posters here. Tough crowd. One wonders -- due to what peculiar set of circumstances did we end up with such humourless group of people on this forum? Why is everyone so somber, solemn, and hell bent on impersonating a school principal here? So no one wants to play the redneck game? No traces of playfulness to be found anywhere? Oh well, I give up, you win, go back to your super serious measurements... -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Phil Leigh;686301 Wrote: Hey - I never said I wouldn't try it... later... OK so now I've tried it... At the audiophile setting... Couldn't hear any difference to be honest. Only did a quick a/b... I suppose I could break out ADM and test it, but that will have to wait. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Point of increasing returns
psp;686324 Wrote: 3. We can sense things in simple physical systems that currently have not yielded to physical measurement with the best equipment currently available. I do science for a living (PhD Biochemistry, BA Chemistry and Math, 34 years work experience and still chugging), and have personal experience with a common macroscopic physical system (e.g., two pounds of common stuff) where every accomplished artisan can clearly distinguish good from bad product but--so far--even the best scientific intstrumentation cannot. Believe me, we have TRIED. This experience makes it easy for me to believe that--so far--we can hear things that we haven't figured out how to measure (either can't measure yet or don't--yet--know what to measure). This is a prank, right? Common stuff? What stuff? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93154 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Point of increasing returns
magiccarpetride;686340 Wrote: This is a prank, right? Common stuff? What stuff? Special Stuff... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93154 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is there a device that makes the sound sound better?
magiccarpetride;685877 Wrote: ? regulated power supply -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93205 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
magiccarpetride;686336 Wrote: Tough crowd. One wonders -- due to what peculiar set of circumstances did we end up with such humourless group of people on this forum? Why is everyone so somber, solemn, and hell bent on impersonating a school principal here? So no one wants to play the redneck game? No traces of playfulness to be found anywhere? Oh well, I give up, you win, go back to your super serious measurements... I know, I fear for the future of Logitech, it seems their products are already perfect and no one is interested in any improvements. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Just a bit of clarification on galvanic isolation via transformers, there seems to be some mis-understanding about them by some people. These devices are wideband transformers designed to pass a very broad range of high frequncies. They block DC and low frequencies, but pass most high frequencies. So they work well at blocking ground loops (60 or 120 Hz), but any high frequency noise on the S/PDIF stream is going to go right on through the transformer. They can even make it worse. ALL transformers have various resonances, if the circuit the transformer is in doesn't damp those resonances they can wind up increasing certain incoming noise frequencies. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Phil Leigh;686339 Wrote: OK so now I've tried it... At the audiophile setting... Couldn't hear any difference to be honest. Only did a quick a/b... I suppose I could break out ADM and test it, but that will have to wait. Curiouser and curiouser! Cried Alice Phil, my system is so highly resolving that I can tell if Squeezeserver.exe is on priority idle or real time, same if it is on dedicated cores or shared cores. Maybe my brain reacts adversely to hearing music which does not sound correct and that is why I am so sensitive to an imperfect aural picture. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
JohnSwenson;686366 Wrote: Just a bit of clarification on galvanic isolation via transformers, there seems to be some mis-understanding about them by some people. These devices are wideband transformers designed to pass a very broad range of high frequncies. They block DC and low frequencies, but pass most high frequencies. So they work well at blocking ground loops (60 or 120 Hz), but any high frequency noise on the S/PDIF stream is going to go right on through the transformer. They can even make it worse. ALL transformers have various resonances, if the circuit the transformer is in doesn't damp those resonances they can wind up increasing certain incoming noise frequencies. John S. Quite. It was the ground loops I was thinking of. It wouldn't be much good transformer coupling/isolating a DAC if the coupling didn't pass high frequencies :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686367 Wrote: Curiouser and curiouser! Cried Alice Phil, my system is so highly resolving that I can tell if Squeezeserver.exe is on priority idle or real time, same if it is on dedicated cores or shared cores. Maybe my brain reacts adversely to hearing music which does not sound correct and that is why I am so sensitive to an imperfect aural picture. What exactly is this system of yours? - sounds interesting. As an aside, how do you know what correct sounds like?... Were you there when it was recorded? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;686368 Wrote: Quite. It was the ground loops I was thinking of. It wouldn't be much good transformer coupling/isolating a DAC if the coupling didn't pass high frequencies :-) Hi Phil, I wasn't refering to you, I know YOU know how it works, but there are quite a few people that seem to belive that that sticking a pulse transformer on a S/PDIF stream automatically cleans up all noise. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
Thank you Adam. Benchmark claims their UltraLock circuits eliminate jitter. Of course, jitter is present after the UltraLock stage. In fact those measurements I mentioned show there are sidebands in the output signal caused by jitter. They are 140db down, but they are there. Changing the jitter of the transport or changing the interconnect into the Benchmark has no effect on the output jitter sidebands. Measurements are provided as evidence. Hence, as Adam states, the jitter performance of the transport or interconnect is irrelevant. And that is the point of interest for those worried - sticking to the topic - about the Jittery Touch. I apologise, especially to Firedog, if I came across as (ahem) touchy...it's just I don't want casual readers to assume they are being conned when, I believe, Benchmark are straighter arrows than most. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Truths
mnyb;686331 Wrote: i'll once again bore you to tears with my love of active speakers :) -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93111 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686367 Wrote: Curiouser and curiouser! Cried Alice Phil, my system is so highly resolving that I can tell if Squeezeserver.exe is on priority idle or real time, same if it is on dedicated cores or shared cores. Maybe my brain reacts adversely to hearing music which does not sound correct and that is why I am so sensitive to an imperfect aural picture. OK, taking this at face value: is your SBT connected wired or wirelessly? If wired, what kind of ethernet cables are you using between your server and the Touch? -- darrell darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Fidelizer - does it work ?
Didn't work at all. Can you tell me why? Here's what it did: Code: wine: cannot find LC:\\windows\\system32\\tasklist.exe File not found wine: cannot find LC:\\windows\\system32\\tasklist.exe File not found wine: cannot find LC:\\windows\\system32\\tasklist.exe File not found wine: cannot find LC:\\windows\\system32\\tasklist.exe File not found fixme:vdmdbg:VDMEnumProcessWOW 0x404e50: stub! Setting priority to Idle for '*' fidelizer.exe (8) services.exe(14) winedevice.exe (17) explorer.exe(25) cmd.exe (63) pv.exe (65) fixme:vdmdbg:VDMEnumProcessWOW 0x404e50: stub! Setting priority to High for '*' fidelizer.exe (8) services.exe(14) winedevice.exe (17) explorer.exe(25) cmd.exe (67) pv.exe (69) fixme:ntdll:NtSetTimerResolution (1,1,0xcb1933), stub! -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93245 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;686313 Wrote: Interesting as this is, you are comparing two wildly different masterings... so unfortunately it doesn't tell us very much other than you clearly prefer one mastering over the other (which is fine). It certainly says nothing about the relative sonic merits of the Touch and your turntable/catridge/phono pre-amp... A much better test would be to compare a good rip of YOUR LP against the LP. Whenever I have done this - approx 150 times - I have never heard the Touch sound worse - it has always sounded slightly better and the reason is because the vinyl playback suffers from the effects of acoustic feedback which the rip doesn't (unless it was done badly - i.e. with the sound playing through the speakers!) I am pretty sure the masterings are from the same remaster. I have two versions of the LP, as well as the 80's CD remaster ripped lossless and the more recent 24/96 I assume converted from the SACD remaster sessions to FLAC. There is a large difference in quality on the Squeezebox between the two generations.. It's strange that every generation of remasters is within itself remastered differently for every medium of the reissue. The sound was very very close, but it is possible the 24/96 remaster isn't the quality of the pressing of the vinyl, perhaps. Likely the vinyl rip would be the way to remove that variable. I was hoping the toolbox 3.0 might be the magic that bridged the gap. But ripping vinyl to test is something I have never attempted. . My assumption is to plug an RCA to headphone jack from the preamp to a macbook pro, and get some software. Any recommendations? Converting to achieve a high quality digital transfer is something worth spending some time on. Is the improvement in sound you experienced with the aid of a separate Dac, or the basic analog out of the SBT? Do you rip it 24/96? Or does it matter? Overall, my own goal is to bring the SBT closer to, or surpass, the vinyl sound. -- Munroe Munroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52982 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
Phil Leigh;686369 Wrote: What exactly is this system of yours? - sounds interesting. As an aside, how do you know what correct sounds like?... Were you there when it was recorded? Well, I know what I like, that's all that matters to me. Just tried the Ingus DRC (never heard of it before seeing your signature), pretty poor on my system, massive drop in resolution. system is laptop with optimised Win 7, linear ps, ethernet, SBT + fidelity level 1 mods, TT3.0 default priorities and buffer, coax to Benchmark DAC1, direct wired to Linn Klout, Townsend Isolda, ATC SCM20 all plugged into Trichord Powerblock. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686389 Wrote: Well, I know what I like, that's all that matters to me. Just tried the Ingus DRC (never heard of it before seeing your signature), pretty poor on my system, massive drop in resolution. system is laptop with optimised Win 7, linear ps, ethernet, SBT + fidelity level 1 mods, TT3.0 default priorities and buffer, coax to Benchmark DAC1, direct wired to Linn Klout, Townsend Isolda, ATC SCM20 all plugged into Trichord Powerblock. Might you be suffering from non-signal path noise being injected into the Touch from your computer over the ethernet? See this recent post http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=686276postcount=1415 Perhaps try wifi, and see if your computer settings still have an effect. (I know that there is a school of thought which says that using wifi is bad for the sound, but that's not important here - you would be comparing wifi with server settings vs wifi without server settings. -- darrell darrell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13460 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
The problem I have with these jitter threads (not just here but in almost all audiophile forums) is that there's all this worry about a phenomenon when few can even say what it sounds like or produce examples for others to test. As I noted in the Paul Frindle thread, research seems to suggest that jitter is inaudible for well designed equipment as best I can tell. Like most things in life, it's impossible to get perfectly 0 or 100% in anything. This doesn't matter though if 80% is more than enough for the intended purpose. As far as I can tell, jitter exists but is practically a red herring for low bit rate applications like audio. -- Archimago Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Phil Leigh;686313 Wrote: A much better test would be to compare a good rip of YOUR LP against the LP. Whenever I have done this - approx 150 times - I have never heard the Touch sound worse - it has always sounded slightly better and the reason is because the vinyl playback suffers from the effects of acoustic feedback which the rip doesn't (unless it was done badly - i.e. with the sound playing through the speakers!) Very interesting, Phil. I am considering ripping my LPs and would appreciate knowing which method/equipment you used to do your ripping. Thanks in advance for any info. Guido F. -- guidof MUSIC ROOM: Marantz TT 15S1 Turntable, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge-Conrad Johnson Motif preamp Oppo BDP-83 Universal Player-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC Vortexbox Appliance-WiFi Bridge-Squeezebox Touch-Toslink-Cambridge Azur 840C DAC-Adcom GFP-750 preamp-Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp - Martin Logan SL3s DSpeaker Antimode 8033-REL T1 Sub BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch (analog out)-Little Dot Mk III amp-AKG K701 headphones SECOND BEDROOM: Squeezebox Touch-Grado SR125 headphones guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Jittery Touch
To understand why it's complex we need to remind ourselves of what jitter actually is. It's pitch modulation, basically like analogue wowflutter, off-centered records, slightly untrue pulleys and vibrating motors in vinyl players, dirt on tape machine capstans etc.. It's nothing more than that in concept. The only thing about digital timing jitter is that it can spread over a larger rate range. Whereas a vinyl player might modulate as 50 - 60Hz (for motors) + 3Hz or so (eccentricity), because digital is not 'mechanical' and has no 'inertia' it can have a far higher rate of change of frequency range.. Thinking about it a bit you realise immediately that analogue systems typically have dramatically (100's of times) more timing modulation than even the cheapest basic digital system (due to mechanical inaccuracy as such like), it's just that it's rate was slower and therefore less complex - it could wow by a whole musical cents every 3 secs during rotation of an LP and most casual listeners wouldn't even notice - LOL.. Ok so if we were to start drawing a graph of rate of change of timing and annoyance value we would see that it rises as the rate of change increases - it does not matter at all at DC, but matters much more as freq of modulation rise towards the mid and HF ranges.. Ok now there is double whammy; the higher the frequencies in the music itself the greater we are likely to notice the jitter, up until the frequencies are so high we can hardly hear them. So the sensitivity goes up, peaks around the 2KHz mark (highest music notes) and then falls again. So the total effect is a combination of BOTH curves; the rate of the jitter modulation - and the frequencies in the music programme itself.. Hope you get that - visualise the sort graph in your mind. So the amount of peak jitter you can tolerate in normal music drops from loads for LF modulation and Bass instruments down to very little for HF modulation and female vocals etc. This means that the common discussion about hard peak numbers for timing jitter does NOT tell you how damaging it may or may not be at all. It's another example of 'hot air' - not due to massive over-complication (like last time), but in this case massive over-simplification! The figures are therefore all but meaningless :-( Ok so to go back to my DAC recommendations with re-clocking etc, the good DAC which employs a high quality phase locked loop to follow the clock rate, act's in a similar concept to a collosal flywheel (if were on an analogue system). The higher the rate of change of jitter timing - the less it will respond - just exactly what is needed to filter timing jitter in a way where it will NEVER become damaging - whatever rubbish timing jitter gets fed to the DAC :-) It will perform exactly similarly to an SPDIF feed from a cheap consumer player full of jitter as it will for an AES feed from the most expensive system available - it will sound exactly the same :- -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
guidof;686396 Wrote: I am considering ripping my LPs and would appreciate knowing which method/equipment you used to do your ripping. Thanks in advance for any info. Guido F. Several users on the VortexBox forum like Vinyl Studio: http://vortexbox.org/threads/2184-Ripping-vinyl-and-other-analog-formats?p=12858viewfull=1#post12858 http://www.alpinesoft.co.uk/ -- Ron Olsen Ron Olsen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9233 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686367 Wrote: Curiouser and curiouser! Cried Alice Phil, my system is so highly resolving that I can tell if Squeezeserver.exe is on priority idle or real time, same if it is on dedicated cores or shared cores. Maybe my brain reacts adversely to hearing music which does not sound correct and that is why I am so sensitive to an imperfect aural picture. no it isnt, and no you can't. I promise. Prove it. Please. -- TheOctavist VortexboxSBT(TT 3.0)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due VentiLink Audio K100 TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audiophile rednecks
SBGK;686389 Wrote: Just tried the Ingus DRC (never heard of it before seeing your signature), pretty poor on my system, massive drop in resolution. You mean Inguz? What microphone did you use? -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93236 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Truths
mnyb;686331 Wrote: i'll once again bore you to tears with my love of active speakers :) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93111 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Win 7 Optimisations
ok, nearly there, but still not as good as Fidelizer, the sound is still a bit lean, what is Fidelizer doing to get that effect ? The last trick up our sleeve is some more free software called Game Booster 3, which actually stops non essential services and makes quite a difference to the sound, giving a deeper, richer tone and more layers to the music. Magic. On my laptop it has stopped 12 services and claims a 42% boost in performance. Like Process Lasso it can be set to run at startup, I have the following in a .bat file in the startup folder C:\Program Files (x86)\IObit\Game Booster 3\GameBooster.exe -game http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html be careful when installing as the install tries to trick you into installing extras like Yahoo browser bar etc, in fact it might be a good idea to step through the install the first time and just select skip on each screen so you can see what it is trying to do. once running you can add the squeezeserver.exe and squeezetray.exe to the gamebox, press the boost button and you're all set. The services can be restored by pressing the restore button. Go to Process Lasso and set the gbtray.exe to default priority idle and default core affinity 0. It now sounds better than Fidelizer and I am in control, I know what is being done to my machine, the settings are there when I boot the machine and the sound is wonderful. pps Found a great tool for understanding what is being started at start up, allows items to be deselected from startup and is the most comprehensive tool I have seen. I used it to find out why the Process Lasso management console kept starting up at startup, turns out there was a scheduled task set up which I then disabled. http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/s...rnals/bb963902 -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93257 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Win 7 Optimisations
My thread in the LMS forum was closed down, but I still have some changes to report. I am happy to reply to any questions about the effects of these mods. The web is full of optimisations for audio playback, this is a consolidated list of mods that I have found that work, I am getting significant improvement in resolution with these. Win 7 Multi Core Optimisation for LMS Windows 7 is great O/S for running LMS on and there are a number of enhancements/configurations that can be made to improve performance and hence the sound. I have spent some time trawling the web and trialling various set ups and this thread documents what I have found to work in my system. Hopefully it may be useful to others too. requirements - Win 7 SP1, I have Home Premium, a laptop/computer with more than 2 logical cores, I have an i3 (4 core), check via task manager performance tab, if in doubt. May work on 2 core, have not tested it for obvious reasons - the Game Booster 3 would be worth trying if nothing else. Will this make a difference to my system ? Download Fidelizer and try it on Audiophile setting, make sure you untick the set Windows X's Live as Home Page. If you can hear a difference playing music and prefer the sound then you will probably benefit from the steps below. http://www.windowsxlive.net/downloading-fidelizer Note - I am using a Touch modified to Fidelity Audio Level 1 and I run it with Soundcheck's TT3.0 with all the options enabled, but with Squeezebox Touch default priority and buffer settings. The mods below should benefit anyone running LMS. The basic theory behind these mods is to take load off the computer and also to optimise the way processes are executed. Basically this is one long advert for Fidelizer and how good it is, but for me it is a pain in the rear to use and I don't like the developer's philosophy where he makes it a pain to start rather than working out a way to charge for it. So, even if you stick with Fidelizer I would still recommend the use of Process Lasso to get Squeezeserver on it's own cores, disabling core parking and the use of Game Booster 3, you can even leave out Process Lasso and just have disabling core parking and the use of Game Booster 3. Or just run with Fidelizer, but at least you now know there are other options. There are a number of guides to how to reduce the impact the Win 7 visual experience has on the system and also how to switch off services that are not neccessary to Squeezeserver operation. The links are below, I have optimised the visual side and switched off some non essential services, but it is hard to tell if these have made any difference to sound quality. http://windows7themes.net/speed-up-w...7-netbook.html http://www.optimizingpc.com/windows7..._services.html http://www.focusrite.com/answerbase/...le.php?id=1071 http://www.blackviper.com/2010/12/17...onfigurations/ right, now the steps that make a difference update - now using JPlay settings Squeezeserver on core 1,2,3 priority real time, i/o high everything else on core 0, priority idle, i/o very low gives a more presence and atmosphere than the fidelizer method below. both Fidelizer and JPlay adjust the windows timer resolution to .5 ms, so here is a $10 aus app that allows you to do that http://www.lucashale.com/timer-resolution/ The aim here is to mimic Fidelizer to an extent so that processes which are not required have a priority of idle and also that all processes except for Squeezeserver are assigned to core 0. To do this I use Process Lasso, it is free and allows process priorities and core affinities to be set for each time the process is run, so next time you reboot the settings wil be retained. http://bitsum.com/prolasso.php when setting up there is a scope of each instance of Process Lasso panel, select manage the processes of all users (including SYSTEM processes) and also select run with elevated rights and manage processes of elevated rights Warning - if your system is unstable with Fidelizer then it will probably be unstable with Process Lasso as well get familiar with the Process Lasso gui, hide the graph. If you haven't already started Fidelizer then start it with Audiophile setting. Go to the Process Lasso gui and click on the priority class column title so that the highest priority processes are at the top. Highlight all the idle processes click and then shift - click, right mouse click and set default priority to idle, also set the default core affinity to core 0. Now do the same for the non idle priority processes except don't set a default priority, just set the core affinity to 0. Start up Squeezeserver, go to Process Lasso, set Squeezetray.exe to default priority idle and default core affinity to 0. Set SQUEEZ~3.EXE to default priority Normal and core affinity to 1,2,3 for a 4 core system. Reboot to clear Fidelizer. You should now have the process priorities and core affinities set by Process Lasso.
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Win 7 Optimisations
the only change to the previous thread is that I am using clock rate of 1 in MMCSS and have shut down 6 more processes using Game Booster 3. Very happy with the results. -- SBGK SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93257 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
