Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
DeVerm;348140 Wrote: > Ah, here I go... proof my brain is loosing detail and resolution... That'll be the whisky, no doubt :) -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
chill;347870 Wrote: > Nick > > I knew this would happen! I don't think anyone (in this thread, at > least) other than myself has claimed to hear the wifi bursts in any > incarnation of the Squeezebox. In my case it was quite clearly an > interaction between the SB2 wifi circuitry and the op-amps in my > pre-amp, and this was caused by the unusually close proximity of the > two, due to building the SB2 and pre-amp into a single chassis. > > I have yet to experiment further with RF shielding, but I'm absolutely > certain that there is no such audible effect in a conventional setup. > Of course, those who claim better hearing than me might use this to > suggest that a conventional setup does have these problems, and its > just that I can't hear them, but with my experience of my DIY project, > I know what it sounds like, and it is definitely not there with my SB3, > for instance. Ah, here I go... proof my brain is loosing detail and resolution... I knew I read your story but lost the detail about your custom housing. So, all is fine once again and indeed no-one can hear difference while using the wifi-link compared to wired. cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
DeVerm;347831 Wrote: > > 1. It isn't distortion or anything like that but we hear the wifi > data-transfer as noise-bursts during playback. > > 2. When we switch to wired this stops because the wifi transceiver is > powered down. Later on, this power-down was confirmed by someone from > Slim. > Nick I knew this would happen! I don't think anyone (in this thread, at least) other than myself has claimed to hear the wifi bursts in any incarnation of the Squeezebox. In my case it was quite clearly an interaction between the SB2 wifi circuitry and the op-amps in my pre-amp, and this was caused by the unusually close proximity of the two, due to building the SB2 and pre-amp into a single chassis. I have yet to experiment further with RF shielding, but I'm absolutely certain that there is no such audible effect in a conventional setup. Of course, those who claim better hearing than me might use this to suggest that a conventional setup does have these problems, and its just that I can't hear them, but with my experience of my DIY project, I know what it sounds like, and it is definitely not there with my SB3, for instance. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Nonreality;347837 Wrote: > I know that we of feeble ears can only guess but no where is it said > that the quality is in bursts. It is always (and seldom)said just that > they prefer the wired. I would think that if it was the power down it > would only occur then. This is a lot like the flac vs wav with some > people. I really think it's more likely to be input levels to be this > noticeable. Can I visit you on your boat?? :) I re-scanned the thread and indeed can't find that info... but I read it somewhere on the slim forums... I'll try to find it ;-) I must also include this: we -always- have a "high-power" 500mW wifi link active when we use the Duet which is on a 2nd low-power wifi-router. The high power wifi is connected to a 8dB high-gain external omnidirectional antenna which is located about 4 meters from the SBR (it's our Internet uplink). Both wifi routers are within 2 meters of the SBR. When I pause playback on the SBR, turn the volume all the way up and do some Internet-browsing, i hear nothing. Conclusion: my SBR has more than adequate RF shielding. When I activate my 200W HAM kit my speakers throw their cones around the place but they also do that with SBR switched off and they even do it a little with the amp switched off ;-) So, if they actually hear something, it will come from an inside SBR source, not external RFI. My 500 mW wifi is a much higher source of RFI than any neighbours wifi router (typical 50 mW). cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
DeVerm;347831 Wrote: > Michael, Your explanation is clear and sound. After reading some posts > on this issue though, my little "electronics alarm bell" started > tinkling in my head and I think that even though your explanation is > true, they might have a point. These are the interesting points I saw > brought forward: > > 1. It isn't distortion or anything like that but we hear the wifi > data-transfer as noise-bursts during playback. > > 2. When we switch to wired this stops because the wifi transceiver is > powered down. Later on, this power-down was confirmed by someone from > Slim. > > To my engineering diagnostic mind, this sounds like --possible-- noise > feedback from the wifi transceiver to the analog part of the SB, via > the internal Vcc power-feeds or GND. > > I do not hear this on my Duet, but maybe my ears are really bad or my > SB doesn't have the problem. It would be interesting to know if these > fellows can still hear it when using S/PDIF out instead of analog. It > would be really nice if they put a spectrum analyzer on their analog > out and determine the frequency components of the noise. > > Anyway, both you and them can both be right without conflicting each > other's statements. > > cheers, > Nick. I know that we of feeble ears can only guess but no where is it said that the quality is in bursts. It is always (and seldom)said just that they prefer the wired. I would think that if it was the power down it would only occur then. This is a lot like the flac vs wav with some people. I really think it's more likely to be input levels to be this noticeable. Can I visit you on your boat?? :) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Stratmangler;347771 Wrote: > Hi Everyone. > > I run my SB3 wired - I prefer the sound ! > All of my music is flac. > SB3 volume is disabled (ie fixed to 100%) as the sound degrades > considerably when the SB3 volume control is used - the music just > becomes flat & lifeless. I prefer to control volume further down the > line. > > My router is 10 feet away from my SB3, albeit up a (wooden) floor, and > signal strength is excellent. My wired ethernet cable is basic UTP with > RJ45 crimps connected directly on the ends. > > My SB3 has a beefier SMPS PSU than the one supplied. > SB3 is fed into an external DAC. > > ChrisIf you are having "sound quality" differences between wired and wireless then it's something else in your system and not wireless. You either get the packets or you don't. It's not going to downgrade the sound. Do a blind test or check your inputs. It may be just a volume difference that is fooling you. It happens all the time to people and not just you. The only reason to not use wireless is dropouts due to interference or a lousy router. :) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
mvalera;347815 Wrote: > Let me just say this categorically... a wired or wireless connection has > absolutely no effect on the "sound" of any of our players. None. > Now a bad network connection may make a song stop, or re-sync, but > that's it. Wired or wireless the actual music file is actually sent to > the player, cached in RAM, and then decoded. As others have pointed > out, it doesn't matter how it gets there just as long as it does get > there. Michael, Your explanation is clear and sound. After reading some posts on this issue though, my little "electronics alarm bell" started tinkling in my head and I think that even though your explanation is true, they might have a point. These are the interesting points I saw brought forward: 1. It isn't distortion or anything like that but we hear the wifi data-transfer as noise-bursts during playback. 2. When we switch to wired this stops because the wifi transceiver is powered down. Later on, this power-down was confirmed by someone from Slim. To my engineering diagnostic mind, this sounds like --possible-- noise feedback from the wifi transceiver to the analog part of the SB, via the internal Vcc power-feeds or GND. I do not hear this on my Duet, but maybe my ears are really bad or my SB doesn't have the problem. It would be interesting to know if these fellows can still hear it when using S/PDIF out instead of analog. It would be really nice if they put a spectrum analyzer on their analog out and determine the frequency components of the noise. Anyway, both you and them can both be right without conflicting each other's statements. cheers, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Let me just say this categorically... a wired or wireless connection has absolutely no effect on the "sound" of any of our players. None. Now a bad network connection may make a song stop, or re-sync, but that's it. Wired or wireless the actual music file is actually sent to the player, cached in RAM, and then decoded. As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter how it gets there just as long as it does get there. Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Hi Everyone. I run my SB3 wired - I prefer the sound ! All of my music is flac. SB3 volume is disabled (ie fixed to 100%) as the sound degrades considerably when the SB3 volume control is used - the music just becomes flat & lifeless. I prefer to control volume further down the line. My router is 10 feet away from my SB3, albeit up a (wooden) floor, and signal strength is excellent. My wired ethernet cable is basic UTP with RJ45 crimps connected directly on the ends. My SB3 has a beefier SMPS PSU than the one supplied. SB3 is fed into an external DAC. Chris -- Stratmangler Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I had issues when I moved homes, in that my wireless router in the office suddenly had too many walls between it and the stereo in the living room. FLAC was too big for what signal was making it to the antennae in the SB3, so it would drop out perodically. The solution was a wireless bridge with an external antenna - works like a charm. -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I'm running 24bit/96Khz flac (studio q) via wireless, no problems at all. But I had some ocasions when the SB loses connection (for some hours) with the network, all computers run the same network without problems in the same time.. I tried several reconnections without succsess. Next morning it worked again. :-0 -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
wilgartw, I'm not sure if I follow you. The point of encoding MP3s at 320kbps vs. 128kbps is to improve the sound quality. A higher sampling rate roughly translates to better quality audio. It has the unfortunate side effect of increasing file size. So you're right - lower bitrate files are smaller, so over unreliable connections, they are less likely to drop out. With less data to transfer in order to play back the whole song, your connection can likely tolerate more dropped packets before it's buffer empties. This is becuase each packet of size X contains more music when the song is encoded at 128kbps than when the song is encoded at 320kbps. But when the song does drop out, the drop out will be all or nothing - you'll go from hearing the song, exactly as the file is encoded, to hearing nothing. It's not like driving in a car, getting further and further from a radio station, and slowly hearing the signal go to static. As I read your last post, you're thinking that setting the bitrate is more of a throttling setting. If it was a throttle, then you'd be selecting the speed at which a file of contant size was sent between SC and your SB - meaning if you set the throttle too slow, you would be playing the song at a faster rate than you're sending it, and your player would have to pause in order to let the transfer catch up. Am I misunderstanding you? -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
androidtopp;345658 Wrote: > Themis - check one of my previous posts - according to Andy, when using > wired, the wireless radio gets disabled. > > wilgartw - increasing bit rate has nothing to do with overcoming packet > loss. The connection to SC is over TCP, so any discarded/malformed/not > recieved packets get re-requested. Eventually all the data will get > there. The question is just how long it takes. If his wireless is > unreliable, then higher data rates means a higher likelihood that > enough data packets get lost to cause the buffer to empty and the sound > to stop. Packet loss won't make it sound worse (as in, less clear, > muddier, not as bright, etc, etc), unless you count no sound at all as > "worse." > > The claim is that somehow, wireless makes the quality of sound worse > than wired. As both media types use the same guaranteed traffic method, > we're (or, at least I am) assuming 100% data delivery that's "different > sounding" when recieved wired vs. wireless. > > If he's using FLAC wired and MP3 wireless - I would say, yeah, there's > a difference. But that's not an apples to apples comparison. And plenty > of people (myself included) stream FLAC over wireless. So it can be > done. yes, that was my understanding. but surely if less kbps then less traffic, so less likely to get a packet lost, and more bandwidth available to catch up... otherwise why would the option to reduse the kbps be there? -- wilgartw wilgartw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19007 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
androidtopp;345658 Wrote: > Themis - check one of my previous posts - according to Andy, when using > wired, the wireless radio gets disabled.That's really weird. I would swear > that when I tested it, it remained on... perhaps my memory is flawed ? I'll try the blind test once more, then. Thanks for the info. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Themis - check one of my previous posts - according to Andy, when using wired, the wireless radio gets disabled. wilgartw - increasing bit rate has nothing to do with overcoming packet loss. The connection to SC is over TCP, so any discarded/malformed/not recieved packets get re-requested. Eventually all the data will get there. The question is just how long it takes. If his wireless is unreliable, then higher data rates means a higher likelihood that enough data packets get lost to cause the buffer to empty and the sound to stop. Packet loss won't make it sound worse (as in, less clear, muddier, not as bright, etc, etc), unless you count no sound at all as "worse." The claim is that somehow, wireless makes the quality of sound worse than wired. As both media types use the same guaranteed traffic method, we're (or, at least I am) assuming 100% data delivery that's "different sounding" when recieved wired vs. wireless. -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
is everyone missing the obvious? if his wireless network isn't very good, couldn't he have stepped the bitrate to 128kbps (mp3) to overcome the packet loss. whereas on wired he was listening to flac? -- wilgartw wilgartw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19007 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
If I'm not mistaken : Whatever the way the SB3 is connected to the network (wired or wireless), BOTH of its network adapters are up and running continuously. So, how could there be a difference ? -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345413 Wrote: > Hi there, seems that there are a lot of opinions here > > Well I just keep on rowing.. > > Perhaps its quite simple. I dont think this is not a network issue if > this dealer really hears differences. If you have a DAC with built in > radio transmitter that you can turn off, perhaps the DAC will sound > better when the transmitter its turned off. > > It could be that I really dont hear any differences in my set up, but > this dealer could hear some in his LINN £1 set up. > > For me its best if there are no differences.. I think its really > convenient to run wireless. FWIW I have a £15,000+ Linn system and can report no difference whatsoever when using the digital output of an SB3 into an external DAC. By the way, there are two sorts of Linn dealers IME, those you have bought stuff from and those you haven't... ;o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I think (and all kidding aside) that if he's claiming issues with wireless signal, it's going to be a problem (as many people have noted) that you're not going to avoid by switching the box over to a cable - all those cordless phones and access points are going to still be hanging around out there. DeVerm makes a fun point - make yourself a little Faraday cage (see roughly 50% of mythbusters episodes for instructions ;-), get someone to flip through the different permutations of wired vs. wireless, inside vs. outside the cage, and see if you can tell the difference. If you can't, then I would rule that out as something to worry about when optimizing signal. If you can, then do what you gotta do. At the very least it's kind of a fun project. -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I think he is quite sympatic, but I haven't bougth anyting from him yet. ;-) I just want to be sure that my SB works optimal before I go for en external DAC like Benchmark or so... -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345413 Wrote: > Hi there, seems that there are a lot of opinions here > > Well I just keep on rowing.. > > Perhaps it’s quite simple. I don’t think this is not a > network issue if this dealer really hears differences. If you have a > DAC with built in radio transmitter that you can turn off, perhaps the > DAC will sound better when the transmitter it’s turned off. > > It could be that I really don’t hear any differences in my set > up, but this dealer could hear some in his LINN £1 set up. > > For me it’s best if there are no differences.. I think it’s > really convenient to run wireless.Does the dealer have the name "Snake" > anywhere in his name or name of the store? I would switch dealers no matter how much he tells you how great he is. The other choice is to trust him and buy whatever he says you should, you will get some good equipment regardless. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Hi there, seems that there are a lot of opinions here Well I just keep on rowing.. Perhaps its quite simple. I dont think this is not a network issue if this dealer really hears differences. If you have a DAC with built in radio transmitter that you can turn off, perhaps the DAC will sound better when the transmitter its turned off. It could be that I really dont hear any differences in my set up, but this dealer could hear some in his LINN £1 set up. For me its best if there are no differences.. I think its really convenient to run wireless. -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
chill;345383 Wrote: > First let me say that I categorically do NOT believe that wired sounds > any different from wireless in an SB2 or SB3. > > However, I should point out my own experience in re-housing an SB2 in a > chassis that contains my DIY pre-amp. Being in the same chassis, the > SB2 [...] > quiet fizzing static sound corresponding to the SB2 buffer refilling > over the wifi link. > [...] > I hesitated to make this post, as it might give ammunition to a point > of view I don't agree with. My own DIY configuration was definitely > not a normal setup, and it should perhaps serve more as a warning to > DIY builders than to users of the conventional off-the-shelf units. Don't hesitate ;-) You could have experienced direct RFI from the SB to your pre-amp but more often this noise is transferred via a shared power-supply or any cabling or ground-connection between the two (even though moving items around makes a change indicating direct RF...) Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency_interference to find out how misleading RFI can be. Both situations can be resolved but you need to determine where the problem is first. Easiest is to connect SB to it's own PSU. If that helps you need to filter the DC. If there's no change, disconnect audio-link between SB and pre-amp (if that helps you need a choke in that cable) If it's really direct RF, you need to do some RF shielding. If it's RF via power-supply, you need to block it using a ferrite-bead-coil and some capacitors. This filter is very easy to do as what you want to pass is DC and what you want to block is RF which is miles apart. I can give specifics on how to build that; parts only cost a couple of bucks. If it's direct RF you need to create two compartments within the housing. Separation plus housing itself needs to be metal or cover the inside with spray-glue & aluminum-foil or better, a conducting paint that's available in DIY spray cans. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_shielding In my own RF designs I put a small ceramic capacitor (1 nF) across Vcc and ground pins of every IC/chip as close to the chip as possible on the PCB. Many of those might not be needed but some are and they are cheap enough to do this for home-build projects. A couple of those added across the power-supply pins of your op-amps (assuming you use op-amps) can be all the cure you need. Cut the leads as short as possible and solder it across the pins directly on the underside of the PCB. If you make your own PCB's, make sure that more than 50% of copper surface after etching is ground and decouple DC for RF at every IC. good luck, Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
First let me say that I categorically do NOT believe that wired sounds any different from wireless in an SB2 or SB3. However, I should point out my own experience in re-housing an SB2 in a chassis that contains my DIY pre-amp. Being in the same chassis, the SB2 circuit boards and the op amps in my pre-amp ended up somewhat closer together than would normally be the case for discretely housed units. In this configuration I'm afraid I definitely COULD hear the impact of the wireless connection. The music sounded the same, obviously, but during very quiet periods (eg the gaps between tracks) I could distinctly hear a very quiet fizzing static sound corresponding to the SB2 buffer refilling over the wifi link. I was able to reduce this noise to inaudible levels by moving the SB2 circuit board no more than a foot or so from the op amps. When I connected via cable (from a nearby homeplug), the wifi card was unpowered, and the static noise was totally absent. Given this experience, I would not consider it completely out of the question that a wireless SB3 placed directly next to the op amp section in a separate pre-amp could induce some static noise. I hesitated to make this post, as it might give ammunition to a point of view I don't agree with. My own DIY configuration was definitely not a normal setup, and it should perhaps serve more as a warning to DIY builders than to users of the conventional off-the-shelf units. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
JJZolx;345258 Wrote: > Some people will claim that the RFI using wireless can be detrimental to > the sound. > > http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/14/140731.html > > A PC creates a nightmare of RFI. I would never connect one directly to > my audio system. Instead, I would look for devices that isolate the PC > from the audio system. For example, the Ethernet DACs (eg, Squeezebox, > Linn DS) will provide isolation *provided that they are connected via > an Ethernet cable*. A wireless (Wi-Fi) connection just introduces more > RFI. But a wired Ethernet connection has an isolation transformer that > helps keep the RFI out of your system. Okay, I read a lot of bull in this thread but I just can't let this pass without jumping into the boat ;-) RFI means it's nasty stuff at radio frequencies. Now please someone explain me how a transformer can block that. The unshielded ethernet cable will actually introduce -more- RFI into the SB compared to using a wifi-link. Maybe they mean that by not using wifi this wifi-signal doesn't get into the box? Well, maybe if you throw your wifi-router in the trash plus those of all your neighbours etc. because as long as the SB isn't in a Faraday cage that stuff will all get in there so better put it to use. Can I come out of the boat now? ;-) Nick. -- DeVerm DeVerm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18104 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Trust me on this one... trolling in this forum is unnecessary. They jump into the boat on their own. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
opaqueice;345280 Wrote: > Dropped packets that can't be re-sent don't make a subtle difference in > the sound. They make it stop. Exactly. Which is why I don't think this is what the guy means. I don't think you need to be an audiophile to tell when the network can't keep up. tonny;345266 Wrote: > This HiFi dealer also can hear differences between diffent NAS:es too.. > :-0 No, this is definitely true. But it's more a difference in playback speed. If the data is on the *outside* rings of the hard drive platters, further from the spindle, then it gets read faster - at a constant angular velocity, you cover more distance per unit time on the outside tracks, as linear velocity is faster towards the edge of the plarter than it is at the center of the platter. So if you don't want your music to sound faster or slower than originally intended, you should try to keep your data in the middle of the platters. He probably knows of some NAS devices that have a special algorithm that does just this. -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345173 Wrote: > A hifi dealer in Gothenburg claims that the SB is quite sensitive and > can sound like a ”good” MP3-player when using wireless.. > and like a £500 CD-player wired. Has he done a blind test? We had someone on this forum - sleepysurf, I think - who swore the wired quality was vastly superior to wireless. One afternoon he had his wife switch back and forth without telling him, and he tried to guess. He failed utterly (4/10 right or something). tonny;345187 Wrote: > > But, I think this dealer means that the conditions concerning SB > DA-conversion could be affected when running in wireless mode. Some > DAC:s are quite sensitive to PSU-quality. That is theoretically possible. So is the opposite (the wireless sounds better than wired due to differing CPU etc. utilization). Both are extremely unlikely, and it's very easy to find out for sure if it matters (just do a blind listening test). androidtopp;345250 Wrote: > > To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's assuming that wireless > will drop out more, since it'll have more discarded packets than a wired > connection? Dropped packets that can't be re-sent don't make a subtle difference in the sound. They make it stop. > Now, maybe if the SC -> SB connection was UDP (opaqueice, I always > thought this was Universal Datagram Protocol, but maybe the D is for > Donkey?), and here I am assuming it's not...can't remember off top of > my head, but I can't imagine it is...I can see where wireless would be > problematic. But so would wired, most likely, depending on how much > bandwidth you're needing. I think it's TCP/IP (which stands for Transported Completely by Parakeet). JJZolx;345258 Wrote: > Some people will claim that the RFI using wireless can be detrimental to > the sound. > > http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/14/140731.html They call it audio -asylum- for a reason. But anyway, if that's the problem you'd better unplug your router, not just go to a wired connection. And your cordless phones and those of your neighbors, and all the radio stations within 30 miles or so. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345266 Wrote: > This HiFi dealer also can hear differences between diffent NAS:es too.. > :-0oO Next step : listening to differences between hard disk storage locations... Final step : does ipV6 sounds better than ipV4 on a SB ? :D -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Yes, I'm running SqueezeCenter on a QNAP 109. This HiFi dealer also can hear differences between diffent NAS:es too.. :-0 -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Some people will claim that the RFI using wireless can be detrimental to the sound. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/14/140731.html > A PC creates a nightmare of RFI. I would never connect one directly to > my audio system. Instead, I would look for devices that isolate the PC > from the audio system. For example, the Ethernet DACs (eg, Squeezebox, > Linn DS) will provide isolation *provided that they are connected via > an Ethernet cable*. A wireless (Wi-Fi) connection just introduces more > RFI. But a wired Ethernet connection has an isolation transformer that > helps keep the RFI out of your system. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I made the test (long ago) : no difference whatsoever, on any material. The contrary would have been -really- amazing. -- Themis SB3 - North Star dac 192 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345173 Wrote: > A hifi dealer in Gothenburg claims that the SB is quite sensitive and > can sound like a good MP3-player when using wireless.. and like a > £500 CD-player wired. > > I have not done any testings myself. Planning on using my SB3 as a > Wireless bridge and connect my NAS direct to SB3. I Guess that the SB3 > and NAS will communicate directly then. The hifi dealer is a fool. It doesn't make any difference. Are you running SqueezeCenter on your NAS? -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
opaqueice;345170 Wrote: > The SB receives the data in packets which it later decodes - it makes no > difference whether those packets are transmitted by wire, wireless, or > donkey so long as they arrive fast enough. I'm a big fan of 'IPoAC' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers). It won't make it sound any different tho. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
Yeah - Unless he can prove that the extra power required to run the wireless NIC as opposed to the wired one (and I don't even know if the un-used NIC gets turned off, so this could be moot) degrades the ability of the SB to do it's thing... To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's assuming that wireless will drop out more, since it'll have more discarded packets than a wired connection? But statements like "A hifi dealer in Gothenburg claims that the SB is quite sensitive and can sound like a good MP3-player when using wireless.. and like a £500 CD-player wired." lead me to believe that it's more than just proper vs. improper operation, but actual subjective sound quality improvements. Now, maybe if the SC -> SB connection was UDP (opaqueice, I always thought this was Universal Datagram Protocol, but maybe the D is for Donkey?), and here I am assuming it's not...can't remember off top of my head, but I can't imagine it is...I can see where wireless would be problematic. But so would wired, most likely, depending on how much bandwidth you're needing. I have found that by using a permanent marker to draw a circle around the outside of my CDs, I can get Transporter level performance out of my iPod. So I would recommend doing that. ;-) -- androidtopp My SB3 is the most expensive part of my stereo. So I'm not going to brag about it. http://www.last.fm/user/androidtopp androidtopp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I think some audiophiles just get scared when they hear the word "wireless" and think it will automatically impact sound quality without actually doing any listening tests. -- Mark Lanctot "Make it so it doesn't suck" is a good design target, but hard to implement - Michael Herger Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I think he is quite technical, in fact he is electrical engineer and worked with heavy HiFi gear for more than 20 years. Im computer guy myself, and I know what you mean concerning the TCP, protocols and so on.. But, I think this dealer means that the conditions concerning SB DA-conversion could be affected when running in wireless mode. Some DAC:s are quite sensitive to PSU-quality. -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345173 Wrote: > A hifi dealer in Gothenburg claims that the SB is quite sensitive and > can sound like a good MP3-player when using wireless.. and like a > £500 CD-player wired. Does this same dealer also believe his Word files will be "worse" when they arrive at his computer via a wireless network rather than wired? He's demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of how the system works as the files are transmitted as computer sound files (FLAC, WAV, MP3 etc.) to the Squeezebox which decodes them and then plays them back. It doesn't matter one bit how the files are transmitted, just like your computer files won't be altered when you send them to another computer. -- Mark Lanctot "Make it so it doesn't suck" is a good design target, but hard to implement - Michael Herger Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
A hifi dealer in Gothenburg claims that the SB is quite sensitive and can sound like a good MP3-player when using wireless.. and like a £500 CD-player wired. I have not done any testings myself. Planning on using my SB3 as a Wireless bridge and connect my NAS direct to SB3. I Guess that the SB3 and NAS will communicate directly then. -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345109 Wrote: > I have a SB3 that I run in Wireless mode. > > Are there any mayor sound differences to go by wire instead? > > What are your experiences in this area? Apart from dropouts (i.e. when your wireless network isn't working or isn't fast enough), there is no difference in sound. The SB receives the data in packets which it later decodes - it makes no difference whether those packets are transmitted by wire, wireless, or donkey so long as they arrive fast enough. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
tonny;345109 Wrote: > I have a SB3 that I run in Wireless mode. > > Are there any mayor sound differences to go by wire instead? > > What are your experiences in this area? Hi there, I didn't have any sound issues when using wireless - I changed to wired because the SB/TP occassionaly lost the connection to the router -- pkfox When the going gets weird - the weird turn pro. Hunter S Thompson pkfox's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5346 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 - Wireless or Wired
I have a SB3 that I run in Wireless mode. Are there any mayor sound differences to go by wire instead? What are your experiences in this area? -- tonny tonny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53207 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
