Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
HectorHughMunro;336740 Wrote: This looks interesting: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320Title=DacMagic The gossip is that it'll be £200. The DAC equivalent of the 740c. Importantly, it has USB. Looks very interesting indeed. Is this in the shops yet? -- terjehaa terjehaa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17451 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
HectorHughMunro;336740 Wrote: This looks interesting: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320Title=DacMagic The gossip is that it'll be £200. The DAC equivalent of the 740c. Importantly, it has USB. This won't quite be the DAC of the 740, as that upsamples to 24/384 and the DAC magic will upsample everything to 24/192. However, with a suggested price of $399, this could be a bang for the buck choice for use with a Squeezebox. -- OldCoder OldCoder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7315 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I like many of the older bitstream DAC designs as I find them more analog sounding ... but one of the newer, very affordable, DAC's out there that sounds plenty good is the Lite DAC-AH. It's under $180 brand new. As an option, this DAC can be taken to a whole other level if you get the CAA Mod by COEM Audio. I have this modded DAC and it sounds awesome. Only cost me $400! -- Pneumonic Main: Transporter Squeezebox 3 Roksan DAC/PS MODWRIGHT Sony SCD 777ES Sonic Frontiers SFL-2 Pre S.A.R. Labs MOS 450 Power Martin Logan CLS II Speakers Office: Squeezebox 3 COEM Lite Audio DAC AH McCormack TLC-1 Pre Sonic Frontiers SFS80 Power Elipson Circee Speakers Pneumonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10091 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Since when is spec a measure for good sound?? Since Michael Fremer tested the KR Enterprises amp and found it to be the best amp he ever heardonly to discover a week later that its spec didnt even meet the criteria for calling it hifi? I just wonder. -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
bartverwaaijen;340632 Wrote: I use a Apogee mini dac (see my system in the system topic). And I am pretty happy with it, owning it for more than 3 years now. The only negative point in my objective is the lack of multiple coax inputs.I've recently had the opportunity to borrow an Apogee Duet for three weeks and was blown away at the quality for $500. Less inputs and OS X only as most of audio handling is done by CoreAudio, but I'd be surprised you could do better for that price new. People seem to disagree if the MiniDAC is slightly better or the Duet, but most seem to think close. Course it's use is debatable here as it wouldn't be interfacing with a SB or Transporter. In fact the Duet was my target signature when DAC shopping. Eventually went with a couple Parasounds after hearing a used 1600 next to a Duet. The 1100s didn't disappoint when I received them. Quite the deal if you only need single-ended (as opposed to 1600s balanced) and can be found on Audiogon and eBay for $250. -- blessingx '#9733;' (http://www.last.fm/user/blessingx/) -'this american life' (http://thislife.org/), 'take-away shows' (http://www.blogotheque.net/spip.php?page=cae_alllang=en), 'jazz profiles' (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10208861), 'streaming soundtracks' (http://www.streamingsoundtracks.com/)- macbook ))) #8855; squeezebox 3 #8594; assemblage dac1 #8594; rudistor nxØ2 sistema #8594; at w1ØØØ / etys er4p/s #8855; squeezebox 3 #8594; parasound 11ØØ hd #1 #8594; stax srm-ØØ7t #8594; stax lambda sig / lambda pro #8855; squeezebox 3 #8594; parasound 11ØØ hd #2 #8594; single power extreme platinum #8594; senn hd58Ø x2 blessingx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11754 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316159 Wrote: I would not waste the money on the Bereford. It's specs don't look any better than the Classic. You'd be better off spending the 165 British Pounds on speakers. Mike Has anyone made a direct comparison? -- Labarum Brian Labarum's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19963 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I use a Apogee mini dac (see my system in the system topic). And I am pretty happy with it, owning it for more than 3 years now. The only negative point in my objective is the lack of multiple coax inputs. -- bartverwaaijen bartverwaaijen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19585 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
GreenMan;338334 Wrote: Is there any diff between the DAC on the SB2 and the SB3? I've got an SB2. Not in the DAC's but there is a subtle difference in the PSU arrangements IIRC. Not a massive deal by any means. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods)- Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Outdoors: Boombox+Creative Sub (If I remember to turn it on...) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Is there any diff between the DAC on the SB2 and the SB3? I've got an SB2. -- GreenMan My computer - SB2- Krell KAV-300i - pair of Thiel CS2 - my ears - my brain GreenMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1173 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Attached to an Sb3I have a modded one of these http://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/audionote_dac2.html (Level B signature Silver Caps) which is a true delight and well worth the investment; it does have a USB option. The sound is rich and clear, well rounded with a solid soundstage. -- Simon Simon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=367 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Simon;337015 Wrote: Attached to an Sb3I have a modded one of these http://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/audionote_dac2.html (Level B signature Silver Caps) which is a true delight and well worth the investment; it does have a USB option. The sound is rich and clear, well rounded with a solid soundstage. Simon, do you have the optional USB interface? And if so have you compared the sound via the SB3, and the USB input? -- Nuuk Nuuk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4844 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
This looks interesting: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320Title=DacMagic The gossip is that it'll be £200. The DAC equivalent of the 740c. Importantly, it has USB. -- HectorHughMunro HectorHughMunro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16514 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Im using a Zhaolu D3 DAC with my DUET and im very pleased. It's inexpensive and once the original Opamp switched in favor of 2 BurrBrown OPA627BP this little DAC comes to life! -- Doermann Doermann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8433 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Nonreality;330890 Wrote: Whatever it is, it works for my ears and brain just fine. I really believe that dollar for dollar the SB3 is the best thing I have bought in years. My Big Green Egg BBQ comes close but was too expensive to compete. After spending a couple of weeks away on vacation being exposed to a $50 BBQ and the kids iPOD/music, the 1st thing I did when i got home was boot my dedicated Squeezecenter and kissed my green egg. My wife just shook her head. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Nonreality;330890 Wrote: Whatever it is, it works for my ears and brain just fine. I really believe that dollar for dollar the SB3 is the best thing I have bought in years. My Big Green Egg BBQ comes close but was too expensive to compete. I absolutely agree - although my Roomba 560 robot vacuum cleaner is up there too :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Phil Leigh;330354 Wrote: Unfortunately, this translates into effort and choice which are both stressful. So, we'd like to just buy something that we know (ie are told) is great. Oddly, hi-fi is the only thing I can think of that that works like this - maybe photography is close? I'm sure there are others.Golf Clubs and equipment. Got to be the worst example of this especially with the less than average players. It's called trying to buy a game. The industry would be out of business without this phenomenon. :) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Phil Leigh;330709 Wrote: Well I guess that is a question for Sean. It is entirely possible that (unlike many boutique - or even mainstream - designers) he just went for what he felt sounded good to him!Whatever it is, it works for my ears and brain just fine. I really believe that dollar for dollar the SB3 is the best thing I have bought in years. My Big Green Egg BBQ comes close but was too expensive to compete. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
seanadams;330752 Wrote: Would you prefer one that measures poorly? Or do you believe that my own subjective preferences are aligned with yours? Have do you measure musicality ? -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
harmonic;330938 Wrote: How do you measure musicality? Indeed. How do you measure the influence of branding? Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
darrenyeats;331006 Wrote: Indeed. How do you measure the influence of branding? Darren Bravo.. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
darrenyeats;331006 Wrote: Indeed. How do you measure the influence of branding? Darren Or perhaps; The influence of branding on the human perception of very subtle changes in absolute air pressure. Because I would guess that overall there exists more reliable measures of branding-effects than of musicality... -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I don't understand why anyone would want to be branded. It's quite painful. Just listen to the cows complaints. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Phil Leigh;330354 Wrote: A simpler answer is that the analogue stage of a DAC is voiced by its designer to sound they way they want it to sound. Even if the digital stages of the DAC are perfect, the sound will be coloured (shaped) by the analogue stage, and its choice of op-amps/transistors/valves, caps, resistors etc and general circuit design (feedback etc)... I wonder what sound-voicing aspects Sean and his team were aiming for, when designing the SB3? -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
NewBuyer;330572 Wrote: I wonder what sound-voicing aspects Sean and his team were aiming for, when designing the SB3? Well I guess that is a question for Sean. It is entirely possible that (unlike many boutique - or even mainstream - designers) he just went for what he felt sounded good to him! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
ModelCitizen;330715 Wrote: Or what measured well. MC That's exactly what I meant ;o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
ModelCitizen;330715 Wrote: Or what measured well. MC Would you prefer one that measures poorly? Or do you believe that my own subjective preferences are aligned with yours? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I never really liked the sound from the transporter, then i bourgt a moddified one and the difference diddent give me enymore musical plasure , so sold that one . The i went to sb3 and tried several dacs with it including benchmarkt dac-1 stello mk1 mk2 and some other i cant remember the name of , the benchmark i liked the best in my system but to be honest in musical terms the sb3 was just as good so i continued my search. Then i got the new Linn Snekay DSand was completly baffeld have much better it made my system sound. All the various combinations of streamers i had in the past had one thing in commen and thats lack of bass extension and difinition and musicality. The sneaky brought back all of this and in the same time gave me more clearity and fidility then the transporter ever produced IMO. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
harmonic;330251 Wrote: had one thing in commen and thats lack of bass extension and difinition and musicality. That's three things. MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
ModelCitizen;330257 Wrote: That's three things. MC You most really have a borring life. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
harmonic;330267 Wrote: You most really have a borring life. No, MC has has a sense of humor. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
tomjtx;330289 Wrote: No, MC has has a sense of humor. and my posts generally make some sense too. A point of view stands more chance of being communicated correctly (and taken seriously) if care is taken with diction, punctation, grammar and spelling. If one is too lazy or can't be bothered to form a lucid post then why should people be expected to read or take it seriously? MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
harmonic;330251 Wrote: I never really liked the sound from the transporter, then i bourgt a moddified one and the difference diddent give me enymore musical plasure , so sold that one . The i went to sb3 and tried several dacs with it including benchmarkt dac-1 stello mk1 mk2 and some other i cant remember the name of , the benchmark i liked the best in my system but to be honest in musical terms the sb3 was just as good so i continued my search. Then i got the new Linn Snekay DSand was completly baffeld have much better it made my system sound. All the various combinations of streamers i had in the past had one thing in commen and thats lack of bass extension and difinition and musicality. The sneaky brought back all of this and in the same time gave me more clearity and fidility then the transporter ever produced IMO. I have to agree with you, in a roundabout sort of way. Playing my SB3 with analog out I think its very average sounding, no deep bass, 2-dimensional sound, flat, no perspective, you name it. When using digital out to my Bryston dac everything changes, suddenly I got height, depth, wide soundstage, and deep punchy bass. The difference is quite significant. There is something very weird in that you dont like Stello, its been given a lot of praise. I have seen people sell their Benchmark DAC1 because they thought a cheap Beresford sounded better, or because they couldnt hear the difference from their Philips dvd playerso something is very amiss sometimes with dacs, what is it? Just personal taste? -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Anne;330316 Wrote: There is something very weird in that you dont like Stello, its been given a lot of praise. I have seen people sell their Benchmark DAC1 because they thought a cheap Beresford sounded better, or because they couldnt hear the difference from their Philips dvd playerso something is very amiss sometimes with dacs, what is it? Just personal taste? It's not much of a mystery. It has nothing to do with the DACs and everything to do with the brain. If you don't believe me, try a level-matched blind test and compare two of them. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Anne;330316 Wrote: I have to agree with you, in a roundabout sort of way. Playing my SB3 with analog out I think its very average sounding, no deep bass, 2-dimensional sound, flat, no perspective, you name it. When using digital out to my Bryston dac everything changes, suddenly I got height, depth, wide soundstage, and deep punchy bass. The difference is quite significant. There is something very weird in that you dont like Stello, its been given a lot of praise. I have seen people sell their Benchmark DAC1 because they thought a cheap Beresford sounded better, or because they couldnt hear the difference from their Philips dvd playerso something is very amiss sometimes with dacs, what is it? Just personal taste? Regardings the two stellos, the demo was in my room with a friend and only for that day , the both made the sb3 sound better in some ways,havever when using linn tundem to determen what sounded most musical the sb3 sounds just as good. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
harmonic;330331 Wrote: Well first we have to prove if blindtesting with your ears are a valid evaluation tool for audio reproduction gear . I don't know what you mean by that. The question (roughly) was why do different DACs sound so different? One possible answer is that it's because they produce different sounds when connected to an audio system. If so, the listener will be able to hear the difference blind. Another possible answer is that it's because they produce different sensations in the listener's mind for some other reasons. In that case a blind test will reveal no difference. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
A simpler answer is that the analogue stage of a DAC is voiced by its designer to sound they way they want it to sound. Even if the digital stages of the DAC are perfect, the sound will be coloured (shaped) by the analogue stage, and its choice of op-amps/transistors/valves, caps, resistors etc and general circuit design (feedback etc). This is the basic reason why Pre-amps, cd players, DACs and power amps sound different. It's the way they were designed and the components involved. The real problem (as I guess we all know really) is that there is no objective benchmark - they should all be a straight wire with gain, but none of them are exactly that. Therefore, the only way forward (IMHO) is to choose components with which to construct a system that works for YOUR ears and sounds great to YOU. It doesn't matter what it sounds like to anyone else... Unfortunately, this translates into effort and choice which are both stressful. So, we'd like to just buy something that we know (ie are told) is great. Oddly, hi-fi is the only thing I can think of that that works like this - maybe photography is close? I'm sure there are others. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Hmm, yes. With the Bryston amp its very easy to switch rapidly from one source to another when comparing. I just tried with my satellite decoder, comparing its digital out to my dac with its own analog out, and I was hard pressed to hear a difference, so I chose analog here because it gives me the possibility to adjust volume on the satellite receiver rather than on the amp. Then I only need one remote on the table when watching TV. -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Since I started this thread I felt responsible to post an update. I have been looking at all the suggested DACs but I havent really made any progress on the subject. In parallel I have been looking for an I/O device for my laptop that would enable me to record my vinyl collection. This project was totally unrelated to my DAC quest but it was soon going to cross that path. I used to record my vinyl onto my Panasonic SV3000 DAT. Then I edited the tracks (removing pre- and post spaces, renumbering, etc) and then record it onto my Marantz CDR630 CD recorder. This works fine but it is a very lengthy process. I wanted a device that would enable me to record to my hard drive. There are many software packages available such as Ableton Live that can record and edit the songs and burn them to CD if required. Anyway, I have been evaluating many devices and I finally selected the TC Electronic Konnekt Live (KLive) for this purpose http://www.tcelectronic.com/KonnektLive.asp . The KLive is an extremely flexible device that is capable of far more than just record my vinyl collection. I was familiar with TC Electronic superb reputation for building high quality studio gear so it was almost an obvious choice for me. It has a DSP on board and has build in effects (reverb, compressor / limiter, EQ, etc). This unit will be a great asset for small live mixing as well. The KLive also has multiple digital I/Os. The digital I/Os got me thinking about my DAC quest again and so I hooked up my SB3 to the KLive and use the TCs build in DAC. The sound quality is simply impressive! I guess my DAC quest is over and my SB3 has found its partner. If anyone here is looking for a digital I/O for their digital recording needs then certainly have a look at the TC Electronic range of audio interfaces. They are fantastic! -- Pascal Hibon Pascal Hibon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7969 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I nominate the Channel Island VDA2. I am a consumer only, and what follows is my opinion only. I have used my SB3 for several years. Until a few months ago I used it to listen to a few songs for convenience, or to listen to internet radio. I used a Rotel 1040 CD/DVD player for critical listening. I have what I consider to be a bottom of the high-end system: Musical Fidelity integrated amp/Cardas cables/Vanderteen speakers. Years ago I tried an outboard DAC, a stock MSB Link III, and I really did not notice much difference. Last year I tried a Channel Island VDA2/VAC-1, a 24/192 DAC with (optional) outboard power supply. This clearly improved multipe aspects of performance of both my CD player and the SB3. Because I was so impressed by the performance of the VDA2 and I could hear a clear difference adding the VAC-1, I last month I upgraded my stock SB3 power supply to a Channel Island VDC-SB. I do not have experience with other optional SB power supplies, but this upgrade worked, resulting in a more authoritative base and more details than the stock power. Upgrading the power supply was a smaller step than adding the VDA2, but still quite noticable. I use a Harmony Optical One Toslink cable to connect the SB3 to the VDA2, and strongly advise against using a plastic optical cable. The VDA2 also has a co-ax connection, of course. The SB3-VDA2 combination sounds so good that I have finally gotten around to ripping all my CDs (using dBpoweramp CD Ripper, thanks to people who suggested it in other threads). I can't believe I was so close to music of this quality all these months and never bothered. Oh well, what's past is past. My Rotel player is now used only for DVDs. Critical listening has never been better. Ripped Red Book CDs, on the SB3 with this DAC, sound VERY similar to SACDs (via a Sony C333ES fed directly to the amp). I have also compaired 24bit/48khtz (and 24bit/192khtz) streams from an M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 card via s/pdif to the VDA2, to 16/44.1 and 24/48 streams via the SB then thru the VDA2. I am able to connect the SB3 optical out and the 2496 card s/pdif out to the VDA2 simultaneously, and toggle the source. I have done this with a friend who was blind to the source. The 2496 card can connect also via analog outs directly to the amp, so the DAC in the card can be compaired to the VDA2 DAC (without the SB3 in the system). I have not yet done every possible combination (which DAC, wav vs flac, 48 vs higher frequency, 16 vs 24 bit, PCM vs DSD) in blinded fashion, but the SB3-VDA2 work well together and consistently produce a truly delightful musical experience. In fact, its so good I may just not bother with all that testing. I might just spend my time listing. http://www.ciaudio.com/ -- Provos Provos's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9642 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
BDG;316240 Wrote: Suffice to say, after 3 days, I sold my $5K (used values) worth of Naim gear and run the DAC1 Pre directly into my remaining Naim 180 power amp and Shahinian Arc speakers. Haha.. this takes the cake and just goes to show that it's just personal preference (or delusion!) and that to buy hifi you must listen to it an make your own mind up... 'cos the next guy is going to hear something entirely different. Your set up is the same as mine was (you can't beat Arcs for choral and analogue music). In the end my conclusion was that I'd never get anything to sound as good as a CDX... to my ears the Benchmark (ran either through Naim pre-amp or solely power amp) gave a cold, harsh and clinical edge to the sound.. none of the other dacs I tried with the SB3 got near the CDX either. Since then I've gone from a Transporter to a SB+. And I'm still hoping to come across a network player that sounds as good as the CDX. MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
sfraser;318144 Wrote: SB3- Benchmark DAC-1-Bryston BP25 preamp--Bryston 3B Amp--PMC loudspeakers. Just out of interest, can you hear any difference when you run the DAC1 straight into the 3B? MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I am in need of some advice on DACs. Pls see bedroom system in sig. I have read enough about the Benchmark DAC1 that I'm considering returning my HR stuff for DAC1 Pre or perhaps just the DAC1 if it will feed both a headphone amp and have a line out for my self powered Audioengines. Can someone provide opinions about DAC1 versus HR Max DAC? Feel free to PM me to discuss. Thanks! -- jh901 FLAC Living Room: SB Rcvr | Creek 6060 Integrated Amp | Totem Model 1 Bedroom: SB Rcvr | HR Ultra Micro DAC | HR Micro Amp | AKG K701 cans | Audioengine2 jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
sfraser;318538 Wrote: Yep, digital out from the SB3 to the DAC1 and analog out from the DAC1 to the preamp AUX input. Also analog out from the SB3 directly to the preamp (analog)CD input. Then I would think something is amiss in your system, but then again,who knows. Its just that you have the resolving power in your system to show differences between albums, amps, maybe even cables, but not dacs? I say this because I have actually spoken to a guy who sold his Dac1 because he couldnt hear a difference between that and his aging Philips dvd players analog output.. Analog out from SB3, and the digital feed into my Bryston dac results in a change from 2 dimesions to 3, from no deep bass to very tuneful addictive bass, a sound that really stands out from SB3 analog, but then, maybe I have a miss somewhere, I dont know. By the way, my hearing is below average! -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
pfarrell;318315 Wrote: eiret wrote: Do you use digital or analog out from DAC1? I'm not sfraser, but the purpose of a DAC is to use the analog out. Digital in, analog out. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Yep, digital out from the SB3 to the DAC1 and analog out from the DAC1 to the preamp AUX input. Also analog out from the SB3 directly to the preamp (analog)CD input. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I purchased a Benchmark DAC-1 last year for my 2 channel system. I am pretty hard pressed to hear any difference between the SB3 internal DAC and the DAC-1. For reference, the system is used in a near-field listening environment and consists of SB3- Benchmark DAC-1-Bryston BP25 preamp--Bryston 3B Amp--PMC loudspeakers. Either my ears are off (which is possible) or there is a good DAC built into the SB3. My 2 cents. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Another vote for the Beresford Mk6/3. Very good and better than the DAC on a Duet IMO. I'm principally using the DAC on a Cambridge 840c which is better but not enormously. The Stello DACs are worth a try. I find there is very little difference between DACs versus the huge differences that exist between speakers. -- HectorHughMunro HectorHughMunro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16514 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
sfraser;318144 Wrote: I purchased a Benchmark DAC-1 last year for my 2 channel system. I am pretty hard pressed to hear any difference between the SB3 internal DAC and the DAC-1. For reference, the system is used in a near-field listening environment and consists of SB3- Benchmark DAC-1-Bryston BP25 preamp--Bryston 3B Amp--PMC loudspeakers. Either my ears are off (which is possible) or there is a good DAC built into the SB3. My 2 cents. Do you use digital or analog out from DAC1? -- eiret eiret's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11521 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
eiret wrote: Do you use digital or analog out from DAC1? I'm not sfraser, but the purpose of a DAC is to use the analog out. Digital in, analog out. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
There is nothing so fierce as an audiophile rattled. I bought got an SB3 15 months ago, and after 2 months of excitement and ripping cd's I started to realise that there was something missing in the output compared to my CD player (Musical Fidelity A3). Of course, the functionality of the SB3 wins hands down, my partner had a bad habit of hitting repeat rather than going into the library to fetch a new CD, and this was getting on my nerves (in that silent way!). Given that I wanted my Sb3 to sound 'more like' the A3, I went for an external DAC (as this would also allow me to use headphones as well - and save the planet by leaving my amp off!). I was surprised to see that there were a bunch of DACs in the $1,000 range that everyone liked, but it did seem odd to stump u 3x the cost of the Sb3 for the DAC. Instead I went the Beresford DAC route - simple enough, if I didn't like it I could send it back and I'd only be out of pocket the postage, couldn't argue really (and home demo is the only way to chose gear). The DAC arrived, and after a week of playing I did a blind test wth my partner versus the A3. Yes the A3 was still better, but the gap between the Sb3/DAC was much closer - much more to my liking. So I kept the DAC. 11 months fly by, and there was talk around the campfire of the new Mk6/3 DAC being much improved over the original one, and a much better headphone stage too, so after a cheeky e-mail I wrangled selling my old DAC back to Stanley and buying the new Mk6/3. After a week this new DAC is awesome (dudes!) much much better than the old version, and now it really is giving my A3 a run for its money. Its everything I would want for, lots of detail, nice soundstage, good bass response, and a good headphone stage. Compared to the SB3 on its own that just sounds 'flat' and lifeless. Of course I'm no audiophile, I stopped that after 1 to many Hawkwind concerts in the 80's, I actually listed to my music and appreciate it, rather than tweak my gear all night :-) so the combination of the Sb3 and Beresford DAC works brilliantly. I know that I could spend 10x what I have spent on my gear to get 'ultimate sound' but then I'd need to spend 100x to get 'ultimate ears' as mine have aged somewhat. Like most people, life is a compromise, my gear has to work for DVD's, BluRay, TV, Radio etc, and not take a PhD to switch on. Unfortunately, I stumbled upon SACD (just as the format died!) and now I'm lusting after streaming SACD rather than having to chnage discs, but SACD is 'Sunday best' like my vinyl, taking only 10% of the listening time. I seem to have rambled ... BT -- BigTony We're Only In It For The Music! www.zappateers.com BigTony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10638 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I can only repeat myself, but now i ve actual prices. An Old Audio Analogue (1.1, 1.2 DDE) can be buy from 110-130 USD. Real bargain, so if you would like to upgrade but haven't much money, hear one of these old stuffs. Improvement will be signifcant if D/A was the bottleneck of system. -- Saughassy Saughassy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18489 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Robin Bowes;317207 Wrote: Conversely, hifi speakers wouldn't be all that good at a stadium gig [3]. Notwithstanding the audience would probably not appreciate Martin Logan's spoiling their sight ... :D -- sebp System : Mac Mini for ripping to FLAC (Max) SqueezeCenter 7.0.1 running on a ReadyNAS NV+ Living room : Squeezebox 3 Sony STR DE-875 Celestion F30 Bedroom : Squeezebox 3 Beresford DAC NAD C315BEE KEF iQ3 Kitchen : SB Receiver Logitech SoundMan X1 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Robin Bowes;317136 Wrote: Pascal, These are PA speakers, designed for high-volume sound-reinforcement. Sure, yours will be great for a party in a big room, but I'll be extremely surprised if they can reproduce sound as accurately as a pair of hifi speakers. R. One of the big misconceptions in the audio world is just that. A speaker capable of handling let#8217;s say 100 watts doesn#8217;t (or shouldn#8217;t) need 100 watts to produce its #8220;best sound#8221;. A speaker#8217;s band pass curve is measured at very low power ratings (1 watt or so). A good constructed speaker will not have a huge difference in its band pass curve at low or high power levels. If it does, then it is a bad speaker. Many people tend to look first at the #8220;Power Handling#8221; spec of a speaker; and this is actually not the important parameter. The two most important specifications are the nominal impedance and sensitivity. These specifications are in most cases least understood. The MP-Audio speakers produce the same sound quality at low power ratings as it does on high power ratings. I use them in my living room at normal listening levels. As you look closely at those speakers you will notice that they don#8217;t use horns in the high frequency part. Most, if not all, PA speakers today use horns in the high frequency range. These horn tend to be very aggressive and you#8217;ll easily get a headache listing to them, even when used outside. Again this not the case with MP-Audio. This brand is different in many ways. It is not a high volume manufacturer. Most parts are handcrafted; the wood of the cabinets is 13 layers Finish Pine (carpenters hate this because this wood is quite hard). As I mentioned before, I have listened to a lot of HiFi speakers. Until today I haven#8217;t found any speaker that produces a better sound then my MP-Audio speakers. Keep in mind that music is an emotion; not everyone will like the same sound color. This is one of the reasons why there are so many speakers out there. sebp;317167 Wrote: Audiophiles really have no mercy. Hope you enjoyed the trip, Pascal. ;-) Yes I do enjoy this trip. I like to know what people views are on topics such as these even if I do not agree with all of them. It#8217;s great to see what kind of response is generated on a simple question such as #8220;what DAC to use#8221; :-) -- Pascal Hibon Pascal Hibon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7969 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
bossanova808 wrote: But a $200 DAC and try it - the difference IS significant. It may not be as much as with a $1000 DAC but then again it might be that the designer of the cheaper DAC is focusing more on performance and audio quality than marketing and design...it's perfectly feasible, is it not, that a good audio engineer could design and build a DAC for that short of price, still make a profit, and outperform the SB3 DAC (which is indeed not at all bad, but hardly the holy grail). Maybe it's just that other DACs sound different, but for me the differences in this case (Beresford) mean better - it's much more open sounding, much lower noise floor, everything seems just separate and less, I'm sorry to say it, digital. It's just silly (and snobby) to rule out these things based soley on price...which is exactly what a lot of people have argued about the Sb versus the Sonos, for example If you read carefully you will see I've never said that there is no difference, or that the SB2/3 is *better* than any other (cheap) DAC. Rather, I'm suggesting that the difference will be small and many (most?) people will not be able to hear it. I *have* tried alternate DACs, from a Arcam Delta to a Perpetual Technolgogies P3A. I used to use a modified Art DI/O with my SB1 but that has been sitting on the chelf gathering dust since I got my SB2, and SB3, and finally my Transporter. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
One small note, sound aside, user interface is another feature to consider when evaluating a DAC. For example, the Benchmark DAC1 does not have a remote on/off, in fact it has no on/off at all. Power is controlled by the powerstrip you plug it into. Which I find to be a bit of a pain. Notice that the new Bryston BDA-1 has a trigger input. Advantage Bryston. Regards -- MrJB MrJB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
MrJB;316972 Wrote: One small note, sound aside, user interface is another feature to consider when evaluating a DAC. For example, the Benchmark DAC1 does not have a remote on/off, in fact it has no on/off at all. Power is controlled by the powerstrip you plug it into. Which I find to be a bit of a pain. Notice that the new Bryston BDA-1 has a trigger input. Advantage Bryston. Regards Very good point. I went with the external DAC ($400, just info for people who put value to that kind of info), and if it was only to sound difference, I would not have bothered. Even when I think there's some, I'm pretty positive I would not be able to get it in DBT. However, with the DAC I got: - variable output controlled by analog pot. (enables me to bypass preamp and that makes the biggest difference in SQ IMNSHO) - good headphone amp - DAC to connect projector to the system (somewhat specific) K -- slimkid Where does the light go when you turn the switch off? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iAj2aPdQnk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRhRv4q_SI http://youtube.com/watch?v=nlrpe8Ig5m8 http://youtube.com/watch?v=dC9tGlwPln8 slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
NewBuyer;316468 Wrote: I think that I must be one of the very few people who actually LIKE the sound of the SB3 analog output. :) Just keep your signal cables short and use proper amp/speaker combos (go for system synergy), and I think it sounds great. Plus you thankfully get to avoid the jitter penalty of an S/PDIF conversion and cable, which is a major DAC design advantage of the SB3 in my opinion... You can make that two of us! I don't even keep the cables short - for reasons I will keep to myself for fear of being laughed out of the audiophile section, I have 4m interconnects between SB3 and amp - and it still sounds great! -- gw43 gw43's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11327 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
gw43;317020 Wrote: You can make that two of us! Make that three, I think it's a decent enough player. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Pascal Hibon;316694 Wrote: As far as upgrading my speakers, well I dont think there is any HiFi speaker out there that would out perform the speakers I have. I have MP Audio speakers http://www.mp-audio.be/ Well on paper there's lots about those speakers that I am less than keen on, but with 100dB/W and 750W continuous power handling, by golly you could have an impressive party! -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
PA speakers -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Pascal Hibon wrote: As far as upgrading my speakers, well I don#8217;t think there is any HiFi speaker out there that would out perform the speakers I have. I have MP Audio speakers http://www.mp-audio.be/ These are speakers for professional use. The guy who design them is a quality freak. The bass and mid range speakers are PHL, a French manufacturer. The tweeter is MP Audio#8217;s own design. The xover filters are completely custom made. Even the coils are custom made. I have listened to a lot of speakers in my life but I still have to find speakers that beat MP Audio. The amplifiers I use are from the same manufacturer and are completely hand made. I use a pair BSS360 xover between the top cabinets and the bass. Pascal, These are PA speakers, designed for high-volume sound-reinforcement. Sure, yours will be great for a party in a big room, but I'll be extremely surprised if they can reproduce sound as accurately as a pair of hifi speakers. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Robin Bowes;317136 Wrote: Sure, yours will be great for a party in a big room, but I'll be extremely surprised if they can reproduce sound as accurately as a pair of hifi speakers.R. Audiophiles really have no mercy. Hope you enjoyed the trip, Pascal. ;-) -- sebp System : Mac Mini for ripping to FLAC (Max) SqueezeCenter 7.0.1 running on a ReadyNAS NV+ Living room : Squeezebox 3 Sony STR DE-875 Celestion F30 Bedroom : Squeezebox 3 Beresford DAC NAD C315BEE KEF iQ3 Kitchen : SB Receiver Logitech SoundMan X1 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316321 Wrote: The cost of the actual DAC chip (or the cost of the aluminum box in which it sits) has very little to do with the quality of it's output. Much more important is the design in which it sits, and how the signal is treated from end to end. Qualified engineers spent a lot of time on our DAC design... Mike I agree with that. The SB3 internal DAC isn#8217;t bad at all. The reason why I#8217;m looking at an external DAC is simply because the SB3#8217;s VFD display inverter is inducing some #8220;noise#8221; in the analog stage of the SB3. This could be solved by splitting the internal power supply (analog and digital power supply). That alone would make a world of difference. Some people have mentioned the Transporter. I#8217;m pretty sure that device would satisfy my needs as well. And to be honest, I find myself drooling sometimes when looking at it. Only thing is, I find it a bit too expensive. The Transported is not 1700 Euro better than the SB3. If I would spend about 1000 Euro on a DAC for the SB3, the total system price would bring it to about 1300 Euro, which is still 700 Euro cheaper than the Transporter. As far as upgrading my speakers, well I don#8217;t think there is any HiFi speaker out there that would out perform the speakers I have. I have MP Audio speakers http://www.mp-audio.be/ These are speakers for professional use. The guy who design them is a quality freak. The bass and mid range speakers are PHL, a French manufacturer. The tweeter is MP Audio#8217;s own design. The xover filters are completely custom made. Even the coils are custom made. I have listened to a lot of speakers in my life but I still have to find speakers that beat MP Audio. The amplifiers I use are from the same manufacturer and are completely hand made. I use a pair BSS360 xover between the top cabinets and the bass. -- Pascal Hibon Pascal Hibon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7969 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Pascal Hibon;316694 Wrote: I dont think there is any HiFi speaker out there that would out perform the speakers I have. added to my list of famous last words ;) (it's meant as a joke) -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
bhaagensen;316709 Wrote: added to my list of famous last words ;) (it's meant as a joke) Yep - I can think of plenty... :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Well, I find it unbelievable that some seem to think that a 300$ box (the SqueezeBox) which has a carefully-chosen price tag, plenty of features (server, programmable interface, remote,...) and which includes a dac for obvious practical reasons (it's easier to sell it as a self-sufficient piece of electronics, rather than a dac-demanding naked network driver), could _possibly_ include a dac that has a relative price of over 100-150$. I'm not talking about parts' price here : I'm talking about the sonic -marketing- price, which includes parts, design and so on. Equally, I find it unbelievable that some might seem to think that recently designed dacs costing 400 or 500$, which are made by specialized firms could _possibly_ sound worse than the SB's internal one. I'm not talking about any 15-year old gear, I'm talking about brand new dacs. What does all this mean ? That Slimdevices has talented dac engineers but other firms dont ?! That Slimdevices has a carefuly chosen marketing policy but other firms dont ?! What a presumptuous assumption ! And I won't even comment on _how_ upgrading my Sonus Faber speakers by spending 300$ more (!!!) instead of upgrading SB3' dac could _possibly_ bring _any_ improvement to my system... That's ridiculous. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Themis wrote: Well, I find it unbelievable that some seem to think that a 300$ box (the SqueezeBox) which has a carefully-chosen price tag, plenty of features (server, programmable interface, remote,...) and which includes a dac for obvious practical reasons (it's easier to sell it as a self-sufficient piece of electronics, rather than a dac-demanding naked network driver), could _possibly_ include a dac that has a relative price of over 100-150$. I'm not talking about parts' price here : I'm talking about the sonic -marketing- price, which includes parts, design and so on. Equally, I find it unbelievable that some might seem to think that recently designed dacs costing 400 or 500$, which are made by specialized firms could _possibly_ sound worse than the SB's internal one. I'm not talking about any 15-year old gear, I'm talking about brand new dacs. That's not what people are saying. We're saying that the difference between the SB3 DAC and a $400-$500 DAC is likely not all that significant, and that a better use of funds might be to look at other areas of the system. What does all this mean ? That Slimdevices has talented dac engineers but other firms dont ?! That Slimdevices has a carefuly chosen marketing policy but other firms dont ?! What a presumptuous assumption ! And I won't even comment on _how_ upgrading my Sonus Faber speakers by spending 300$ more (!!!) instead of upgrading SB3' dac could _possibly_ bring _any_ improvement to my system... That's ridiculous. Of course, if the rest of your system is well-sorted, then a DAC upgrade *may* bring improvement. But, in that case, you'd probably be better off with a considerably better DAC, rather than a slightly better one. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Thank you for your response, Robin. Perhaps my english is poor, but I can read between the lines, trust me. :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I designed and built my own DAC - the 'ezDAC' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com/#ezDAC). -- ezkcdude There are 10 kind of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. SHINYMETAL '*Site*' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com)| '*RSS*' (http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/rss/ezdiyaudio.xml) |'*Forum*' (http://ezdiyaudio.informe.com) ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I agree with comment about tuning the room. I could use some help in that area. As for DACs, I just ordered a Headroom Ultra Micro DAC for my headphone system and I fully expect a $699 (retail) DAC to crush the SB Duet receiver. Shouldn't I be MAJORLY disappointed otherwise? -- jh901 Living Room: SB Rcvr, Creek 6060 Integrated Amp, Totem Model 1 Bedroom (pending delivery): SB Rcvr, HR Micro Amp, HR Ultra Micro DAC, AKG K701 cans, Audioengine2 jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Robin Bowes;316770 Wrote: Themis wrote:[color=blue] That's not what people are saying. We're saying that the difference between the SB3 DAC and a $400-$500 DAC is likely not all that significant, and that a better use of funds might be to look at other areas of the system. R. But a $200 DAC and try it - the difference IS significant. It may not be as much as with a $1000 DAC but then again it might be that the designer of the cheaper DAC is focusing more on performance and audio quality than marketing and design...it's perfectly feasible, is it not, that a good audio engineer could design and build a DAC for that short of price, still make a profit, and outperform the SB3 DAC (which is indeed not at all bad, but hardly the holy grail). Maybe it's just that other DACs sound different, but for me the differences in this case (Beresford) mean better - it's much more open sounding, much lower noise floor, everything seems just separate and less, I'm sorry to say it, digital. It's just silly (and snobby) to rule out these things based soley on price...which is exactly what a lot of people have argued about the Sb versus the Sonos, for example -- bossanova808 bossanova808's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
bossanova808;316194 Wrote: I think you're being harsh on the Beresford - I have one and it made a substantial improvement in the Sb3's sound. Hard to go wrong for the price and if you ask me there's no reason per se a good DAC can't be built for that sort of price. Most of the price with the others is sheer hoo hah and a pretty box. My mate has the first Beresford DAC and the latest version. The first one I borrowed and found it to be 'grey' sounding and totally un-involving. However, my mate assures me that the latest version sounds very much better. This may account for seeing the different opinions of the Beresford DAC around the various forums. Needless to say, I would stay well clear of the MkI version! -- Nuuk Nuuk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4844 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316160 Wrote: OMG! Stay the hell away from the Moodlabs dice DAC as well... get better speakers. I see: so according to you there's no dac under 500$ that is better than SB3 internal dac... Pretty funny :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316159 Wrote: I would not waste the money on the Bereford. It's specs don't look any better than the Classic. You'd be better off spending the 165 British Pounds on speakers. mvalera;316160 Wrote: OMG! Stay the hell away from the Moodlabs dice DAC as well... get better speakers. Mike, it looks like you own shares in the speakers manufacturing industry, don't you? ;-) Anyway, I went your way. My new speakers enhanced the sound of my NAD CD player very much, which makes me notice a lot more than my SB3 sounds very poor next to it. Don't you think, as I do, that having to spend 1000 in a DAC to make my 300 (at purchase time) SB3 sound at least as good as my 330 CD player on a 700 amp+speakers system is a bit overkill? -- sebp System : Mac Mini for ripping to FLAC (Max) SqueezeCenter 7.0.1 running on a ReadyNAS NV+ Living room : Squeezebox 3 Sony STR DE-875 Celestion F30 Bedroom : Squeezebox 3 Beresford DAC NAD C315BEE KEF iQ3 Kitchen : SB Receiver Logitech SoundMan X1 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I think mine is V or VI -- bossanova808 bossanova808's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Themis wrote: mvalera;316160 Wrote: OMG! Stay the hell away from the Moodlabs dice DAC as well... get better speakers. I see: so according to you there's no dac under 500$ that is better than SB3 internal dac... Pretty funny :) Er, no. He's advising that, in his humble opinion, the Moodlabs DAC is not very good. There are many other DACs under $500 that may or may not be better than the SB3 internal DAC. My own personal opinion is that the OP would get a better bang for buck by either: 1. Upgrading amp/speakers or 2. Buying a Transporter or 3. Buying a *much* better DAC R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I had a Benchmark DAC1 Pre on loan for a couple of weeks recently to compare with my Naim CDX/Hicap/82 preamp. Suffice to say, after 3 days, I sold my $5K (used values) worth of Naim gear and run the DAC1 Pre directly into my remaining Naim 180 power amp and Shahinian Arc speakers. The DAC1 has blown me away. Bass extension and definition I didn't think the Arcs could run to and a 3D quality to the sound stage with all sorts of subtle layers I hadn't picked up on before. Analogue input is also top notch - I run my turntable through it. You also get a high quality headphone amp thrown in as well - I use Sennheiser 650s and I'm a very happy chap. Service has been fab - can't recommend it enough. -- BDG BDG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18525 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Why do you think in brand new DAC? Forget specs and believe your ears. Old DACS are pretty cheap (my Audio Alchemy was 400 USD but i think available lower prices too) 16 bit 48khz max, below 100db sn ratio, but sounds damn good. -- Saughassy Saughassy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18489 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Robin Bowes;316236 Wrote: Themis wrote: mvalera;316160 Wrote: OMG! Stay the hell away from the Moodlabs dice DAC as well... get better speakers. I see: so according to you there's no dac under 500$ that is better than SB3 internal dac... Pretty funny :) Er, no. He's advising that, in his humble opinion, the Moodlabs DAC is not very good. There are many other DACs under $500 that may or may not be better than the SB3 internal DAC. My own personal opinion is that the OP would get a better bang for buck by either: 1. Upgrading amp/speakers or 2. Buying a Transporter or 3. Buying a *much* better DAC R.Robin, I simply often noticed that, each time someone shows some dissatisfaction about the SB3's dac the usual answer is : a. Get a 1000$ (or more) dac, b. Get a Transporter In my humble opinion, the facts are the following: - SB3 costs 300$ - in these 300$, you get bundled a network card, a drive, a dac, a remote controller, some software (squeezecenter and sb) plus some services. - The dac part of all that is about -let's say- 50-70 bucks. We get a -pretty- good 70$ dac. Did I get it all wrong ? :p Obviously, sebp is right about speakers' upgrade. (btw, which is the author's speaker setup ?) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Saughassy;316260 Wrote: Why do you think in brand new DAC? Forget specs and believe your ears. Old DACS are pretty cheap (my Audio Alchemy was 400 USD but i think available lower prices too) 16 bit 48khz max, below 100db sn ratio, but sounds damn good. I second that. I used an old Audiolab 8000DAC with my SB3 for years. The 8000DAC was cheap and old with specs to laugh at even back when I got it. Still it sounded quite good (i.e. better than the SB3 to my ears). -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
bhaagensen;316287 Wrote: I second that. I used an old Audiolab 8000DAC with my SB3 for years. The 8000DAC was cheap and old with specs to laugh at even back when I got it. Still it sounded quite good (i.e. better than the SB3 to my ears).I second that, too (if you can listen to the dac before you buy it, of course). Tonal color can't be bound to specs. ;) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Themis;316268 Wrote: - The dac part of all that is about -let's say- 50-70 bucks. We get a -pretty- good 70$ dac. Did I get it all wrong ? :p I think you'll find that the actual DAC in the SB2/3 cost something closer to a couple of dollars, not seventy dollars. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316321 Wrote: The cost of the actual DAC chip (or the cost of the aluminum box in which it sits) has very little to do with the quality of it's output. Much more important is the design in which it sits, and how the signal is treated from end to end. Qualified engineers spent a lot of time on our DAC design... As for everything else Robin summed up what I was thinking pretty well. MikeI'm trying to understand. Well, marketing price sums up all that. Does a device sold 70$ has the same design and signal treatement as a -say- 1000$ dac ? I bet no. So, each Device has a sonic signature in accordance to its price. And the relative price of the SB3 dac is (at most) 100$. If it had enough design and signal treatment as the Benchmark, it would probably be sold the price of the Benchmark dac. Did I understood correctly ? :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Themis;316331 Wrote: I'm trying to understand. Well, marketing price sums up all that. Does a device sold 70$ has the same design and signal treatement as a -say- 1000$ dac ? I bet no. So, each Device has a sonic signature in accordance to its price. And the relative price of the SB3 dac is (at most) 100$. If it had enough design and signal treatment as the Benchmark, it would probably be sold the price of the Benchmark dac. Did I understood correctly ? :) So again you are assuming there is a DAC chip that costs $1k. Also you are equating the cost of the DAC chip with the quality of it's output when the careful end to end signal design of the board on which that DAC sits is much more important. You will also find that the cost of the DAC in a $1k DAC box is well under $100... likely as low as $20. Again we have qualified engineers that know how to treat a signal from end to end in our designs... I think you can draw a conclusion about what I am saying about some of the other less expensive DAC boxes that were recommended earlier in this thread. You're better off spending that money on better speakers. -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Totally off topic ... Seldom mentioned but critically important -- tune the room! If you're on a budget, this is one of the best and least expensive upgrades to your sound you can make -- there's plenty of options in terms of acoustic reinforcing material and a whole range of prices. A good starting point is to cut out any obvious frequencies that naturally resonate with your room (you know, that ONE darn bass tone that rattles the china in the other room). If you want to get fancy, you can plug in the dimensions of your room and figure out what placement, proximity, and orientation options for speakers will work best in the space you have available. There's a wealth of free info on room tuning as evidenced by a quick google search. IMHO spending $300 on tuning your room offers much more value than adding an external DAC into the signal path. -- matmar10 _ |\/|atthew J |\/|artin -- An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field. - Niels Bohr matmar10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12874 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Worth noting - if you happen to be using a multi-room synched configuration, adding an external DAC in one room also adds latency which causes weird phase differences and echo-ee psycho acoustic effects... Then again... you could add the same DAC in every room if you had the budget and trust the manuf. latency spec ;-) -- matmar10 _ |\/|atthew J |\/|artin -- An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field. - Niels Bohr matmar10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12874 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
pfarrell;316377 Wrote: Its a very naive idea. Just adding a different version of the product ... ... I would be stunned if SD/Logi would decide to make a Receiver++ with a better DAC. Read me again, Pat. I'm not asking for a different version of the product, but for an add-on product most demanding customers could find useful. I can't count the number of messages in SD forum where people ask for advice on a cheap (but better than SB3's) DAC! Maybe I'm naive, but it sounds to me that there's some clever business to be done there. pfarrell;316377 Wrote: For an audiophile, there are plenty of choices, starting with an SB + Benchmark or Lavry, up to a Transporter, or even a modified Transporter. Yes. But I'm no audiophile, you see. I just want a quite cheap audio device (SB3) to sound quite as good as another quite cheap audio device (NAD C515BEE), without the need to spend thousands dollars to achieve this goal. pfarrell;316377 Wrote: If you want to focus on buying CDs, by all means do so. Its your money, and spend it where you want. What's the use of spending all my money in a music system if there's no money left for the music material? -- sebp System : Mac Mini for ripping to FLAC (Max) SqueezeCenter 7.0.1 running on a ReadyNAS NV+ Living room : Squeezebox 3 Sony STR DE-875 Celestion F30 Bedroom : Squeezebox 3 Beresford DAC NAD C315BEE KEF iQ3 Kitchen : SB Receiver Logitech SoundMan X1 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I think that I must be one of the very few people who actually LIKE the sound of the SB3 analog output. :) Just keep your signal cables short and use proper amp/speaker combos (go for system synergy), and I think it sounds great. Plus you thankfully get to avoid the jitter penalty of an S/PDIF conversion and cable, which is a major DAC design advantage of the SB3 in my opinion... -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
mvalera;316337 Wrote: Again we have qualified engineers that know how to treat a signal from end to end in our designs... I think you can draw a conclusion about what I am saying about some of the other less expensive DAC boxes that were recommended earlier in this thread. You're better off spending that money on better speakers. So you're implying the makers of those DACs don't know what they are doing, essentially, or at least as much as your engineers. Not sure how you can conclude this, and I already have several sets of very nice speakers (Sonus Faber, Rega etc) and with any one them, the DAC in the humble Beresford is noticeably a better sound than the analogue out from the DAC in either my SB2 or my three SB3s. The evidence implies to me you're wrong about this. I imagine the Benchmark is better again, but there's simply no question the Beresford is a humbly priced improvement to the SB system. Why knock it if you haven't tried it? It's jsut another engineer in a room trying to make a decent product, much like Sean was those years ago. No reason to think this guy is any worse or different...and I *love* the squeezeboxes, but I definitely was disappointed in the analogue out when I bought my first one compared to my Nakamichi CD player. Once I popped the Beresford MKV into the system, I was happy again, indeed it's better than the Nak wasand that was pretty good. Not that I disagree - money first into speakers, if you have crappy ones, but once you've reached a certain point a DAC can make a very pleasing difference. -- bossanova808 bossanova808's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I'm using an old Audio Alchemy 1.2 DDE D/A, but it knocks out SB's. More dynamic, more detailed and much more warmer mid tones...etc. Useful improvements. SB sounds like my PD S901, not bad, but AA better. -- Saughassy Saughassy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18489 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I would not waste the money on the Bereford. It's specs don't look any better than the Classic. You'd be better off spending the 165 British Pounds on speakers. Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
At a glance, the specs on that DAC look pretty poor. Arguably the only thing it will add to your system is A) another componant and B) more noise/distortion. Spend the $$ on a nice set of cans, speaker upgrade, or a 2nd zone :-P Or... save your money for the Transporter, or a high-end standalone DAC(1 comes to mind, but I'm bias when it comes to standalone DACs ;-) -- matmar10 _ |\/|atthew J |\/|artin -- An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field. - Niels Bohr matmar10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12874 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Can't stop myself... I'd overlook the Russ Andrews DAC-1 USB and go for the guys he stole the name from... http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/ Much better DAC and same price. BTW Matthew was referring to the Beresford in his post above. Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Cullen Circuits Stage 3 modified PS Audio Digital Link III, also w/ PS Audio Critical Link fuse replacement -- JoeLR JoeLR's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17635 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Pascal Hibon;315642 Wrote: I own an SB3 since a couple of years. Recently I have been thinking about doing some mods to it. I have another thread running on that. But an alternative Im also looking at is to hook the SB3 up to a descent DAC. I was wondering what DACs people are using with their SB3s and why. So I invited everyone to post information on your DAC together with the motivation why this particular device was chosen. Personally Im looking at the mini DAC from Apogee http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/minidac.php Why: Apogee is a pro-audio manufacturer with very good reputation in the pro-audio world The mini DAC seems like a very good partner for the SB3 I could hook up other digital sources such as my DAT or a CD player What are your thoughts on this unit? If you're looking at the Mini-DAC, check out the Benchmark DAC1 (original flavor). It specs better, looks way nicer, and includes RCA outputs which is a must for most Audiophile setups. Benchmark DAC1s go on ebay frequently for 800-ish USD which is a steal. They're built like a tank and will last forever :-) -- matmar10 _ |\/|atthew J |\/|artin -- An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field. - Niels Bohr matmar10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12874 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I think you're being harsh on the Beresford - I have one and it made a substantial improvement in the Sb3's sound. Hard to go wrong for the price and if you ask me there's no reason per se a good DAC can't be built for that sort of price. Most of the price with the others is sheer hoo hah and a pretty box. -- bossanova808 bossanova808's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I use my Denon's 3808 internal dac. It's pretty decent (it has the same quality as most sub-1000$ dacs) and it simplifies my installation. If one day I feel the need of upgrading, I'll need to get a 2-3000$ dac. It's pretty difficult to advice you on a dac without knowing the rest of your installation... anyway, some descent dacs (better than the SB's internal one, of course) are : --- Beresford TC-7510 MK6/3 G-B) : 250$ --- Moodlab's «The Dice» de Moodlab (Hong Kong) : 400$ --- Russ Andrews DAC-1 USB (G-B): about 900$ --- PS Audio Digital Link III (USA) : 1000$ And, of course, the Apogee dac. ;) BTW, I don't think that such a thing as a good partner exists between a drive (your SB3) and a dac. A good partner should rather be used to identify an homogeneous dac-amplifier-speakers' combination. :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I went with the simple route, and got the Transporter. :-) -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
MF X-DAC v8 (or v3) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
Scott Nixon DacKit. DiyParadise Monica2 with mods (but Monica3 is said to sound better) Audial AYAII. If you are into a bit of DIY I think you are more likely to find the sound you like by buying something like (but not necessarily) the DacKit and tweaking it. -- Nuuk Nuuk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4844 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What DAC to use?
I prefer DACs with a USB input, makes any PC a good source: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/connect.html#USB -- Vincent Vincent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11631 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49316 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
