Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
El Duderino wrote: Oh, and Robin, its El Duderino ;) :p R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
cliveb;410715 Wrote: I think you may have misunderstood the end goal of ABX testing in audio. The endpoint is NOT does A sound better than B. It's much simpler: does A sound DIFFERENT than B. No preference judgements are called for: simply the detection (or otherwise) of an audible difference. That strikes me as eminently measurable and open to statistical analysis. I think you meant - does A sound DIFFERENT than B because it is producing an audibly different pattern of sound waves. That question can only be answered with either blind testing or measurements plus some knowledge (gained via blind testing, of course) of perceptual thresholds. But I don't agree that that is the -only- question one might want to answer. If I had to choose between two components, I would greatly prefer a blind comparison to a sighted one, because I think it's the best way to determine which sounds better and which I would be more satisfied with in the long run (or whether it matters at all). Sometimes such tests are possible in audio show rooms, and I find it's -very- instructive to try. One rapidly starts to understand which aspects are important, and how easy it is to be absolutely confident you hear a difference - and then be utterly wrong. And on that topic, I would vastly prefer if audio reviewers would do their analyses blind - I find audio reviews nearly useless as they are. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
El Duderino;410682 Wrote: Without this level of objectivity in endpoints, it is hard to design a relevant double-blind, randomized controlled trial. In testing audio, the endpoint is as subjective as it gets ie Does A sound better than B. Therefore, the design of any double-blind study is compromised right from the start. I think you may have misunderstood the end goal of ABX testing in audio. The endpoint is NOT does A sound better than B. It's much simpler: does A sound DIFFERENT than B. No preference judgements are called for: simply the detection (or otherwise) of an audible difference. That strikes me as eminently measurable and open to statistical analysis. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
El Duderino;410682 Wrote: The problem here is that many individuals seem to think that you can take the scientific concept of a double-blind randomized controlled trial and apply it to areas which one could argue are distinctly non-scientific. This is a fallacy. What is a fallacy is thinking that sighted comparisons...of just about anything involving the five senses...aren't influenced by expectation bias. That is acknowledged generally to be a very unrealistic viewpoint. This unusual belief is popular only in the audiophile world as far as I know. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darrenyeats wrote: When you say long term listening reveals differences do you mean EXACTLY that? I've said several times on this forum that I believe that some differences are not immediately audible in short listening tests. Rather, they reveal themselves over longer-term listening by way of, e.g. listening fatigue - one tires of listening to a particular source. So I guess that, yes, I do mean exactly that. The nub is revealed with your answer to this question: if someone came up with a good way of doing long term listening blind would that be okay with you...? Darren I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not really all that hung up on testing, blind or otherwise. I think El Dunderino put expressed my views perfectly when he said: I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;410600 Wrote: darrenyeats wrote:[color=blue] I've said several times on this forum that I believe that some differences are not immediately audible in short listening tests. Rather, they reveal themselves over longer-term listening by way of, e.g. listening fatigue - one tires of listening to a particular source. I'm not really all that hung up on testing, blind or otherwise. I think El Dunderino put expressed my views perfectly when he said: I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. I do believe that the primary use for all of this equipment, TP/DACs/speakers/etc. and the considerable expense involved in acquiring all of the above, is for the simple, and subjective enjoyment of music. Don't get me wrong, I am a fanatical advocate of randomized, double blind tests, etc. when the primary endpoint is something which is actually measurable. The problem here is that many individuals seem to think that you can take the scientific concept of a double-blind randomized controlled trial and apply it to areas which one could argue are distinctly non-scientific. This is a fallacy. To illustrate, when investigating the role of one drug vs. another--the field in which double blind controlled trials have come to the fore--there is almost always a definitive primary endpoint and several secondary endpoints eg reduction in mortality, reduction in morbidity, measurable decrease/increase in a particular lab parameter. All of these are measurable and definitively quantifiable. Even concepts like quality of life, which may at first glance seem subjective, are assessed on a ratified, tested scale so that there is some standardization and reproducibility. Without this level of objectivity in endpoints, it is hard to design a relevant double-blind, randomized controlled trial. In testing audio, the endpoint is as subjective as it gets ie Does A sound better than B. Therefore, the design of any double-blind study is compromised right from the start. If, on the other hand, there was a standardized test to measure audio quality, enough people were tested on identical equipment to sufficiently power the study, AND the results were readily reproducible by other investigators/listeners, then we'd be getting somewhere and all this talk of putting everything to the test via DBT would be justified. As it stands, I think that conclusions can be drawn from one's own DBT or A/B testing but to try and play this off as scientific is not entirely accurate. By extension, the die-hard mentality of some towards double blind testing in a field that has not been sufficiently prepared for it is not always justified. Oh, and Robin, its El Duderino ;) -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
What is a superdac? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
I wonder why the lower models in the DS range DO have a digital out? I wouldn't buy any of the DS'. £10k for a DAC I can't use with any other digital sources, (such as my dvd, sky box, pc soundcard, legacy cd player)seems a lot to pay. If they'd made it a DAC with plenty of inputs, including a buffered ethernet one for streaming, how much better it would be - perhaps they'll bring out such a digital pre-amp next. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darrenyeats;409922 Wrote: What is a superdac? Darren just my little joke :) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
cdmackay;409325 Wrote: Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. that's my problem with some of these discussions: we see quite a lot of these absolute statements. JezA;409330 Wrote: Nor will I try and argue there's no difference and you must be deluded. Or even be influenced by strange experiments done by the Boston Tea Society comparing 30 year old cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? My point is, I'm not about to join the Yorkshire Tea Forum and claim that Darjeeling is better based on casual drinking by me and my friends. I wouldn't present such perceptions as anything other than, well, perceptions. Why? The Yorkshire Tea lovers could point out, quite rightly, that such perceptions were caused by the water in my region, the non-standard way I prepare my tea, and so on. Or even my expectations given I know which tea I'm tasting. To unravel some of these conundrums requires a more rigorous test which accounts for them. These demands would seem reasonable to me. But I'm not interested in converting Yorkshire tea lovers, or selling Darjeeling, or writing professional tea reviews, so there is no hurry. In the meantime I'm able just to enjoy my tea. :) If I want to do any more than enjoy, though, I will need to dig deeper as to why my perception is what it is. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
better make sure the tea-cups are matched for level then. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
someone wrote: These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. Robin Bowes wrote: I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. I do not agree with your statement. Digital sources make the most meaningful difference in quality. You can never hear what's been lost. I don't disagree with that (even 11 months later). Deficiencies in digital sources are different than, say, speakers with a bumpy frequency response. They're often not immediately obvious to the listener, sometimes only becoming apparent after a longer period of listening. If the source doesn't bring it out, it doesn't matter what the amp and speakers do. I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. But that's not just a digital source - it's a transport and D/A. I have a Duet and I really enjoy the ease of use and versatility. It doesn't sound as good as my CD player, but it's a lot easier to find the music I want to hear in my collection. I plan to buy a Linn DS player. They sound fantatic and leave you buried deep inside the music. The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers. I have heard the Transporter, it has some very good qualities. It just doesn't get me involved in the music. Logitech has cool products, and they have done a lot to make good music available and easy to use. I still maintain that the difference between Duet/SB/Transporter/Karik digital sources when used with the same DAC (the Numerik, in your case) will be, at best, subtle. Sure, there may (will?) be differences but, as I said in my original statement, they will not be night and day. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Hello, The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;) -- jaysung jaysung's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12375 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;409580 Wrote: someone wrote: These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. Robin Bowes wrote: I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. I do not agree with your statement. Digital sources make the most meaningful difference in quality. You can never hear what's been lost. I don't disagree with that (even 11 months later). Deficiencies in digital sources are different than, say, speakers with a bumpy frequency response. They're often not immediately obvious to the listener, sometimes only becoming apparent after a longer period of listening. I find the differences to be more important and obvious than speaker differences. If you are listening for musical performance criteria such as timing, pitch, vocal and instrumental delineation, and the ability to focus on an individual performance out of the group, then the difference in source (the Karik/Numerik was a source because of the specific clock tie-in between the components) is immediate and apparent. If the source doesn't bring it out, it doesn't matter what the amp and speakers do. I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. But that's not just a digital source - it's a transport and D/A. The Karik/Numerik was a digital source because there was a special clock master/slave tie-in between the two that specific to them only. I have a Duet and I really enjoy the ease of use and versatility. It doesn't sound as good as my CD player, but it's a lot easier to find the music I want to hear in my collection. I plan to buy a Linn DS player. They sound fantatic and leave you buried deep inside the music. The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers. I have heard the Transporter, it has some very good qualities. It just doesn't get me involved in the music. Logitech has cool products, and they have done a lot to make good music available and easy to use. I still maintain that the difference between Duet/SB/Transporter/Karik digital sources when used with the same DAC (the Numerik, in your case) will be, at best, subtle. Sure, there may (will?) be differences but, as I said in my original statement, they will not be night and day. R.My nights and days mean something different than maybe some others. I worry less about soundstage and speaker bumps. I am much more concerned if I can hear the way Coltrane began his entry into the piece and can I follow him through as I would at a live performance. A really good source frees up this level of information. You get the artist intention on how the piece was played in the hall or the studio from a performace perspective. Better amps and speakers can make this clearer and more interesting, but they can't bring any more information than what the source sends. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
jaysung;409586 Wrote: Hello, Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;)You are looking at two different levels of product both from usability and sound. Logitech does a much better job of usability with SC7 and the Squeezebox Controller. You have cover art, easier playlist, and more intuitive controls. You also have a lot more services and internet features. The Linn GUI is clunky and unfriendly. From a sound perspective the Akurate is better in almost every way. You should listen to them yourself, but I found the DS to be a lot more enjoyable to listen to. It also cost three times as much as a Tranporter. The Sneaky DS would be a better direct comparison from a price perspective. The Linn UI can run on a laptop or PDA. My DS dealer loves the Mac so he uses a third party UI designed for the DS that is available for the iphone/itouch. It's called Songbook and it supports cover flow and a host of other cool features such as easy playlist manipulation. You can look it up in the app store in iTunes. The Akurate DS does not support digital out, if thats important to you. The Logitech does. You would need to move down in the DS line if you want that feature. I like both for different reasons. If the UI is very important to you at the moment, then Logitech is the way to go. if you don't mind integrating third party products and spending more money, then the Linn will be a more musical experience. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
WhatsNext;409624 Wrote: You are looking at two different levels of product both from usability and sound. Logitech does a much better job of usability with SC7 and the Squeezebox Controller. You have cover art, easier playlist, and more intuitive controls. You also have a lot more services and internet features. The Linn GUI is clunky and unfriendly. From a sound perspective the Akurate is better in almost every way. You should listen to them yourself, but I found the DS to be a lot more enjoyable to listen to. It also cost three times as much as a Tranporter. The Sneaky DS would be a better direct comparison from a price perspective. The Linn UI can run on a laptop or PDA. My DS dealer loves the Mac so he uses a third party UI designed for the DS that is available for the iphone/itouch. It's called Songbook and it supports cover flow and a host of other cool features such as easy playlist manipulation. You can look it up in the app store in iTunes. The Akurate DS does not support digital out, if thats important to you. The Logitech does. You would need to move down in the DS line if you want that feature. I like both for different reasons. If the UI is very important to you at the moment, then Logitech is the way to go. if you don't mind integrating third party products and spending more money, then the Linn will be a more musical experience. There's a very good reason why the Akurate and Klimax don't have a digital out... It would undermine the entire point of the products - which are basically superdacs, with an ethernet receiver tacked on the front. I cannot imagine why anyone would buy one of these boxes and then want to connect them to other DACS (even if they could). It would the grandest waste of money. In point of fact the reason why I wouldn't buy one of them (and yes I've had lengthy demos of both) is that they have no digital loop-through for my TACT. I have heard enough ethernet transports now to conclude that - used PURELY as a transport - there is little if anything to choose between them. I couldn't justify a TP purely as a transport over an SB3. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
jaysung;409586 Wrote: Hello, Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;) You should check on the Linn forum - they have been working on a system that allows SC to control the Linn DS. When I looked, some time ago, you had to buy a 'sacrificial' SB (e.g. a Duet) and use the Receiver part and the Linn syncs to the SB. Thus you get all the benefits of the SC GUI, together with the sound of the Linn. It also worked for 24/192 files, IIRC. -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, dCS Purcell Elgar, Audion Pre, Welborne DRD 300B SETs, Lowther Big Fun Horns with PM6As adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
WhatsNext;409068 Wrote: I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. Just as in blind tests there are all sorts of factors which might mask differences, in these anecdotes of sighted tests there are all sorts of factors which might cause differences other than audible differences between the components. IMO it's unfair to criticise every blind test whilst accepting such anecdotes without question. For example... 1. What was the other equipment used? 2. When you changed the source did you change ANYTHING else in the system? 3. Did you level match the sources using noise and an SPL meter? 4. How many times did you perform the test? Were there any occasions you couldn't tell a difference which you didn't report? But in the end the simplest explanation is expectation (either expecting a difference that doesn't exist, or expecting a real difference to constitute better). The only way to account for this is with some kind of blind test, unfortunately. I say unfortunately, for it's true but I agree it's inconvenient. But in a situation like your anecdote, where the difference is heard in the time taken to walk into the room, long term listening is by all accounts not the issue which makes a blind test of some sort more practical. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darrenyeats;409116 Wrote: Just as in blind tests there are all sorts of factors which might mask differences, in these anecdotes of sighted tests there are all sorts of factors which might cause differences other than audible differences between the components. IMO it's unfair to criticise every blind test whilst accepting such anecdotes without question. For example (not exhaustive)... 1. What was the other equipment used? 2. When you changed the source did you change ANYTHING else in the system? 3. Did you level match the sources using noise and an SPL meter? 4. How many times did you perform the test? Were there any occasions you couldn't tell a difference which you didn't report? But in the end the simplest explanation is expectation (either expecting a difference that doesn't exist, or expecting a real difference to constitute better). The only way to account for this is with some kind of blind test, unfortunately. I say unfortunately, for it's true but I agree it's inconvenient. But in a situation like your anecdote, where the difference is heard in the time taken to walk into the room, long term listening is by all accounts not needed which makes a blind test of some sort more practical. Darren We didn't change anything else in the system. The differences were of a musical nature and clearly evident. Better instrument separation, better timing and pace, and better vocal and instrumental control to name a few. It wasn't things like sweeter highs or lower bass or better soundstage. You could ajdust the volume any reasonable way you wanted and it didn't change the results. I would also take the Karik-Numerik on the road and get the same results in any decent system I placed it in. Sometimes there are just superior products. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darren, if the only way to make valid judgements about a musical experience is with a double-blind test, how can you make a judgement about a live concert? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
JezA wrote: darren, if the only way to make valid judgements about a musical experience is with a double-blind test, how can you make a judgement about a live concert? we're not talking about judgements of a single event - I believe - we're talking about comparing two events. you could, of course, compare two concerts, perhaps on separate nights. But it is unlikely the results of that comparison would tell you much about the technical side of the audio being produced. It's well documented that expectation bias can fool the ear/brain into hearing differences that aren't there (or vice versa). That's where a blind test is useful, in producing reproducible, unbiased, results. that is irrelevant, if you're happy with the sound you're getting, of course, no question. but some people like to find out: is it really worth paying out an extra X amount? Will it really make a difference? For those people, the results of a double-blind test gives some assurance that other tests simply cannot. As an aside, we read a recent article in the hi-fi press, extolling the virtues of a particular component. The lavish results were presented to a set of friends: these included all sorts of outlandish claims as to soundstage, timing, transparency etc, etc, and the friends were asked to guess the components under test. No-one could, but tt turned out to be analogue phono cables, connecting a portable mp3 player to an amp, or powered speakers. Needless to say, the test was fully sighted, and the high-priced cable won the test. Of course, it might well be the best cable, but the test is totally unreliable, so we're none the wiser. To my mind, designing a piece of electronic kit to achieve the quoted results would be a non-trivial task. Designing a piece of wire to do the same would be impressive indeed... :) cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
This is an unwinnable debate and I recognise it as such. :) In the end if you like something and can afford it then go with it. For example, I'm really getting into Darjeeling tea at the moment, but this may be more about liking the IDEA of single estate tea (loose leaf of course!) than the actual taste. Or maybe I'm doing something weird in terms of how I'm preparing the tea which skews the results. Etc. I suppose I could do a blind test versus my usual supermarket Yorkshire tea but I haven't got round to it, I'm just enjoying my tea. :) Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. Then a blind test might remove some of the caveats (but not all of course). Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
that's a great analogy, Darren :) I suppose I could do a blind test versus my usual supermarket Yorkshire tea but I haven't got round to it, I'm just enjoying my tea. :) Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. that's my problem with some of these discussions: we see quite a lot of these absolute statements. I'm not experienced enough in these matters, and so I'm looking towards two things to help me follow: - scientific explanation - blind testing but often it's hard to get either :( cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
If you are capable of making an absolute judgment, then you are capable of making a comparative one. I like this tea is a judgement. I like this tea a lot is another. I won't disagree with your opinion because no-one has done a double-blind trial of teas. Nor will I try and argue there's no difference and you must be deluded. Or even be influenced by strange experiments done by the Boston Tea Society comparing 30 year old cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
JezA wrote: cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? exactly; but where that final test might result in spending a lot of money, I'd like to know that I'm not fooling *myself* into thinking that it really does sound better (because it costs more, or is a bit louder, or looks more impressive, etc, etc). That's where the blind testing is useful. Of course, one might argue that if the end result is the tea tastes better, then who cares whether I'm fooling myself? :) cheers, c. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;293975 Wrote: tomjtx wrote: bigfool1956;293926 Wrote: Well not my review, but I was interested in the comments. The conclusions are flawed if the comparison was not done with level matched sources. and not just level matched by ear There is no escaping that. DBT is somewhat of another matter. However one can't rule out expectation bias in a sighted test, period. Short term testing does have it's own pitfalls and long term listening is preferable. Long term sighted comparo's followed by some blind testing which corroborates the sighted testing would be the most convincing . These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. I do not agree with your statement. Digital sources make the most meaningful difference in quality. You can never hear what's been lost. If the source doesn't bring it out, it doesn't matter what the amp and speakers do. I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. I have a Duet and I really enjoy the ease of use and versatility. It doesn't sound as good as my CD player, but it's a lot easier to find the music I want to hear in my collection. I plan to buy a Linn DS player. They sound fantatic and leave you buried deep inside the music. The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers. I have heard the Transporter, it has some very good qualities. It just doesn't get me involved in the music. Logitech has cool products, and they have done a lot to make good music available and easy to use. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
dcote;231480 Wrote: a word of advice to slimdevices/logitech: this is the kind of faux-pas that good marketing could avoid. One of the worst things that has hapened to Slimmdevices is that the were bought by the Swiss company Logitech. Now, isn't that that company that makes nice mice and fancy keyboards? Btw. typing this on a fancy DiNovo Edge -- th00ht SqueezeBox v3 SqueezeCenter7 Quad 303 + Two Quad Electrostats 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/th00ht) th00ht's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
I attended my local Linn dealer's wine and cheese party demonstration of the Klimax DS last night (Gifted Listener Audio in Centreville, VA). Ivor Tiefenbrun himself mingled with the crowd of 30 or so (I was one of 4 women, all of the rest of whom were spouses of the real audiophiles :)) and then gave a talk and demoed some tracks on the DS. Actually, his assistant and sidekick, Steve from Jacksonville, FL, cued up the demo tracks via his Nokia 800 and laptop plugged into the router with the DS on it. It was a full Linn system, very high end, with Artikulate speakers ($43,000) all internally amped and servoed, Klimax Kontrol preamp, and Klimax DS as source. Although the Akurate CD player and the full Keeled LP-12 were set up on the rack, only the DS was used as a music source. I would have loved to hear it against the full-blown LP12 but that was not featured last night. Ivor likes to play just little snippets of music, maybe a couple of bars, and have you actively listen. Steve played MP3, CD (16/44), and high rez Linn downloads (24/96) of the same snippet. The MP3 bars of music were obviously inferior but I had to try hard to hear a difference between CD quality and high resolution downloads. After all, I am someone who is well-pleased with her Squeezebox playing Apple Lossless tracks through a Benchmark DAC! The real highlight of the evening was Ivor and his one hour talk, ranging from theories about the evolution of our five senses (hearing was the second to evolve, after touch but before sight, I believe he said) to jokes about the Irish (What is a wheelbarrow? A device the English invented to teach the Irish to walk--still don't really get this one) to the future of digital audio (discs and platters of every type are destined to disappear soon). It was a pleasure to meet and chat with Ivor, he is quite a character and obviously a brilliant man. I look forward to Phil's undoubtedly informative impressions of how the Klimax DS compares to some other sources. The music, both snippets and later some whole tracks, that the DS played through that $$$ Linn system last night was superb, even though my own tastes and systems at home run to tubes, vinyl, CD players, warmer less-analytical speakers, and of course my three SB3's. Still what a treat to spend an evening with the founder of Linn! and the food and wine were really good too. --Sarah -- sc53 sc53's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8690 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
sc53;300098 Wrote: to jokes about the Irish (What is a wheelbarrow? A device the English invented to teach the Irish to walk--still don't really get this one) delightful chap altogether -- Jitterbug Jitterbug's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Sarah - great review of the evening. You got wine AND cheese... I'm going to complain to my dealer (well, I got a cup of coffee and a chocolate biscuit). Interesting that you only got to hear little snippets - a complete contrast with the demo I attended, but I suppose a mass event is going to be very different to a one-on-one session. I'm not sure I could spot the Klimax DS against a good CD player (or an SB/TP for that matter) in a quick AB test... Linn are saying that discs and disc transports are dead. I don't think they'll be making them in 24 months time. They really REALLY need to sort out their GUI and server-side software. If only they could licence a version of SC for an ENORMOUS sum of money of course... :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;300126 Wrote: They really REALLY need to sort out their GUI and server-side software. If only they could licence a version of SC for an ENORMOUS sum of money of course... :o) This was one point I made to the chaps in PJ Hifi in Guildford on Tuesday, no matter how good the Klimax/Sneaky DS are that GUI and the media server they use is direI also suggested licensing the SC from Logitech but was told that that was beneath Linn! -- MuckleEck Alasdair 3 SB3s - Duet - Linn Majik - Mission - 2 x AudioEngine 2 - Cambridge Audio 640R - Mordaunt Short - Chumby MuckleEck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11301 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Nice writeup. Thanks sc53 wrote: and high resolution downloads. After all, I am someone who is well-pleased with her Squeezebox playing Apple Lossless tracks through a Benchmark DAC! That's a fairly high base standard. I used a SqueezeBox into a DAC-1 for years, and loved it. When I got my Transporter, I could not tell which I liked better, I went with the Transporter for looks, the sound was so good from both that it didn't drive the decision. Once you get into good gear, the differences in sound take cubic dollars. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
MuckleEck;300134 Wrote: This was one point I made to the chaps in PJ Hifi in Guildford on Tuesday, no matter how good the Klimax/Sneaky DS are that GUI and the media server they use is direI also suggested licensing the SC from Logitech but was told that that was beneath Linn! Hmmm well they have a relationship with RipStation/RipCaster... but I know what you mean. Linn have always had a somewhat arrogant attitude towards other peoples hardware or software. Stupid really. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
sc53;300098 Wrote: Ivor likes to play just little snippets of music, maybe a couple of bars, and have you actively listen. FAIL! Sounds just daft to me. -- browellm browellm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
browellm;300152 Wrote: FAIL! Sounds just daft to me. Yeah well, if it wasn't for the the fact that they have made - and still make - some amazing gear and some of the best-ever recordings :o) Ivor is a controversial figure. The older he gets the weirder he gets... I ain't about to defend him. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Yes, the snippets idea is odd, but apparently an Ivor mandate, since last year when I went to the same dealer's demo of the Linn Keel, the demo was done the same way. However, the snippets of LP tracks were longer--say 30 seconds. The DS snippets were like 6 seconds! Yes, Linn has an arrogant attitude, as some have noted, but it was hard to tell how firmly Ivor had tongue in cheek. I have long owned and loved Linn sources (Linn LP12/Lingo/Linto--non Keeled as I am not rich! Unidisk 2.1, Linn Majik CD player--both bought used and Unidisk now sold) but unfortunately the Klimax DS, at $18,600, is not in my future. There is also an Akurate DS model, with an LCD faceplate large enough to scroll the name of the song that is playing, which goes for $7800 or so. Four of the attendees at last night's soiree (none of whom were particularly well dressed or obviously well-heeled) had already bought their Klimaxes! [ewww, that sounded weird...] -- sc53 sc53's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8690 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;300126 Wrote: If only they could licence a version of SC for an ENORMOUS sum of money of course... :o) Well that enormous amount of money would be precisely $0. They can just download the source :) The real work would be making their players speak slimproto, but even that's perfectly possible. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil, How was the home listening tests of the Klimax?...or have I missed your post? -- MuckleEck Alasdair 3 SB3s - Duet - Linn Majik - Mission - 2 x AudioEngine 2 - Cambridge Audio 640R - Mordaunt Short - Chumby MuckleEck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11301 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;299812 Wrote: Hasn't happened yet... It's down to me to arrange a convenient time and I'm rather busy at work at the moment. Rest assured, you'll all be the first to know! What! is the bank overloading you with work ==:-O -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
haraldo;299819 Wrote: What! is the bank overloading you with work ==:-O Yes... I don't expect sympathy, but things are really wild at the moment! - We're going through a massive integration exercise. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;299849 Wrote: Yes... I don't expect sympathy, but things are really wild at the moment! - We're going through a massive integration exercise. Well, you're certainly not alone... Had lots of overtime and I'm working on an integration team... Lots of headaches, but we'll get there :-)) -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Oh - and the GUI is hopeless -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
What follows is entirely hearsay, subjective opinions and comment. This is purely for your information and entertainment. There is NOTHING scientific or authoritative in what follows... Yesterday I attended a Linn demo of the Akurate DS and Klimax DS. I had 60 minutes in the room alone (apart from the Linn chap and one of the shop staff who I know very well). They ripped 3 of my CD's using Ripstation to a ahrd drive on the shop network - that took a few minutes. Then we listened to some music. Firstly they played a track from one of the actual CD's I had brought (J. Geils Band - Live! Full House - track 1: First I Look At The Purse) on a Linn Majik CD player (£2k). The rest of the system was a Linn Klimax solo 500 and a pair of Akurate Speakers. This track is (IMHO) digitally hard to reproduce with the energy, sense of drive and fun that the vinyl had. The CD sounded OK - certainly didn't sound as good as my home system which (albeit active) is on paper at least somewhat inferior. Then we played the same track from the rip through the Akurate DS (£3.5k). Much better. The crowd applause sounds like real hands, the harmonica is less piercing/glaring, the complex interplay between guitars and organ is easier to follow. Definitely a step up and much closer to my home system. Also much easier to have a conversation over the music without having to shout. Back to the CD...that sounds really bad now!. Back to the Akurate DS (still good) ...and then the Klimax (to coin a phrase). Uh-oh. A bad feeling. £9.5k. I really didn't want to hear this blow away what I'd just heard from the Akurate DS... and it didn't. But it was audibly better. Hard to explain exactly why - there was a general improvement of musicality for lack of a better term. Foot-tapping was now body bouncing on the sofa. Time for the next track... Bells of Berlin by Lone Star. This is a beast of a track - and I was the only one in the room who'd heard it before. This was going to be fun. First off, the CD. Turn it loud I asked...so they did. About a minute into the track, as all hell is breaking loose, the Linn guy shouts It's too loud, and the vocals are painful. We endure a bit more pain and then go the Akurate DS. Big improvement - really noticeable. Everything is better controlled, the vocalist now sounds like he can actually sing (which he can!) and the drums and bass are locked on the tricky stop/start rhythms - the track is starting to make sense and be fun to listen to...and so for the Klimax: Damn. Damn. Damn. It's good - very good. No actually it's great. Linn guy starts noting down the details of the CD. We all agree that this track is a real test and that the Klimax is a big leap from the Akurate (and the CD is pretty much unlistenable except as background music). (blah blah blah) So how do these boxes compare to my system? - well, I went home and listened to the tracks again, just to give me a point of reference. The results were: 1) I wouldn't buy the CD player - my SB+DAC blows it away :o) 2) Akurate DS is broadly similar to my system (can't say how it would stack up against a TP though) at twice the cost. 3) I am arranging a home dem of the Klimax. I need to hear it at home compared to the SB setup. The deal-breaker for me on this is not the cost. It's that I can't use my TACT since the Linn has no digital loop-through. I can't live without the TACT (in the same way I couldn't go back to passive speakers). So I guess the outcome is going to be that I need to try a TP in my system! I'd urge anyone who gets the chance to have a listen to the Klimax. I think it is a very special piece of kit - albeit very very expensive. I said in a previous post that I don't promote Linn...and this is really nothing to do with it being Linn. If anyone came out with a bit of kit like this I'd say the same. So there you go. All usual caveats apply. Please don't mention level matching, DBT etc. These are my personal opinions - and they must be taken with a very large grain of salt. I hope I haven't bored anyone... Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
When you get it at home will you do a blind comparison? For that kind of money, taking ten minutes to make sure the difference is really as big as you think seems well-worth it... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;295990 Wrote: When you get it at home will you do a blind comparison? For that kind of money, taking ten minutes to make sure the difference is really as big as you think seems well-worth it... you should do double-quadruple blind testing and go to a shrink (for mind clearance) and do some yoga immediatily before the testing, and 10min? you need at least ten days... good luck -- GuyDebord Verity Audio Tamino X2 wired with v/d Hul Inspiration, REL Strata5. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config. ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, Nagra VPS phono preamp, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLRs. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Nagra), v/d Hul Mainstream (Pathos) v/d Hul Mainserver (Transporter). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;295990 Wrote: When you get it at home will you do a blind comparison? For that kind of money, taking ten minutes to make sure the difference is really as big as you think seems well-worth it... Yep! I certainly will be doing that. Phil -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice wrote: When you get it at home will you do a blind comparison? For that kind of money, taking ten minutes to make sure the difference is really as big as you think seems well-worth it... Assuming the SB+DAC / Klimax DS / Transporter are all fairly similar in performance, i.e. the differences are minimal, then a 10-minute test would be largely pointless. Extended listening is the only relevant way to evaluate these things. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;296009 Wrote: Assuming the SB+DAC / Klimax DS / Transporter are all fairly similar in performance, i.e. the differences are minimal, then a 10-minute test would be largely pointless. Extended listening is the only relevant way to evaluate these things. I agree it's possible that some difference might be hard to discern in a short listening test. Rather unlikely - it goes against all the research I know of, which indicates differences are much easier to hear with quick switches - but logically possible. Ten minutes was a bit of an exaggeration. You'd probably want to listen to a fair number of tracks, so lets say the short-term test is an hour. Here are four scenarios for the outcome of such a test: 1) Phil doesn't hear any difference during an hour-long sighted listening test in his home. 2) Phil thinks he hears a difference sighted. He tries a blind test, and fails to successfully identify the source more than about half the time (i.e. consistent with guessing). 3) Phil thinks he hears a difference sighted and prefers the Linn. To his surprise, he can hear a difference blind, but he consistently prefers the SB+DAC (this happened with another poster here when comparing the SB to some more expensive source). 4) Phil prefers the Linn both sighted and blind in the short-term test. What do you think he should he do in these cases? Do all of them warrant a longer-term listening test, or only some? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;296009 Wrote: opaqueice wrote: When you get it at home will you do a blind comparison? For that kind of money, taking ten minutes to make sure the difference is really as big as you think seems well-worth it... Assuming the SB+DAC / Klimax DS / Transporter are all fairly similar in performance, i.e. the differences are minimal, then a 10-minute test would be largely pointless. Extended listening is the only relevant way to evaluate these things. R. Robin - I'll have at least 6 hours to compare them. I don't think I can persuade them to leave the Klimax with me overnight :o( -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;296032 Wrote: I would *always* do extended listening, even if I didn't think I liked the sound initially. That must get inconvenient... I recently picked up a Behringer DEQ2496 and plugged it into the effects loop of my Transporter using fw40 to do room correction. snip for brevity Initially, I didn't like the sound - it sounded so different to the non-eq'd system. But I stuck with it for a few days and now there's no going back - the non-eq'd system sounds awful in comparison. That's what's called burn-in... only it's your brain that's burning in :-). I've had the same experience. But try listening to a track with some acoustic walking bass with and without room correction, and you'll hear an improvement that you would certainly notice even without burn-in. In my room many bass notes are fat and distorted without RC, and that gets greatly improved. Changes to the balance at higher frequencies are more a matter of taste - personally, I've more or less stopped using room correction for anything above a few hundred Hz, because the wavelengths are just too short for it to be effective (unless you're really always listening from one precisely fixed position, which I'm not). It might be interesting to start a thread on RC, since many people here seem to use it. Phil Leigh;296036 Wrote: I'll report back in due course. Looking forward to the report. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice wrote: Robin Bowes;296032 Wrote: I would *always* do extended listening, even if I didn't think I liked the sound initially. That must get inconvenient... Nah, I don't change systems very often. I recently picked up a Behringer DEQ2496 and plugged it into the effects loop of my Transporter using fw40 to do room correction. snip for brevity Initially, I didn't like the sound - it sounded so different to the non-eq'd system. But I stuck with it for a few days and now there's no going back - the non-eq'd system sounds awful in comparison. That's what's called burn-in... only it's your brain that's burning in :-). Yeah, you get used to it. This is one of the reasons why I maintain that a better quality source is more important than speakers. Sure, you'll hear more of a difference with a change of speakers, but your ears soon get used to that. Whereas a smoother, more musical source is so much easier to listen to - less fatigue. I've had the same experience. But try listening to a track with some acoustic walking bass with and without room correction, and you'll hear an improvement that you would certainly notice even without burn-in. In my room many bass notes are fat and distorted without RC, and that gets greatly improved. Changes to the balance at higher frequencies are more a matter of taste - personally, I've more or less stopped using room correction for anything above a few hundred Hz, because the wavelengths are just too short for it to be effective (unless you're really always listening from one precisely fixed position, which I'm not). It might be interesting to start a thread on RC, since many people here seem to use it. Yes, that would be interesting. I need to re-visit my RC setup, i.e. re-measure it properly, one speaker at a time. I'd be interested in hearing other people's experiences and tips. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;296070 Wrote: It might be interesting to start a thread on RC, since many people here seem to use it. New thread started: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46903. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Just got back from the Linn Akurate DS and Klimax DS demo...will post my thoughts later...very interesting. If anyone can get hold of the Lone Star CD Lone Star/Firing on all Six (BGOCD183) you can try track 8. The guys in the shop and the Linn guy agreed this is a vicious test track. (you might hate the music, but the recording and production is something else - they don't make rock albums like this anymore...probably for a reason) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;294012 Wrote: I hope to be hearing the DS later this month - so I will refrain from commenting on it until then, except to say that I doubt it will blow away the SB into a good dac, never mind a transporter. In 30 years I've only heard two blow away moments...(I guess I must get out more) 1) Linn Aktiv Bariks vs passive - that was jaw dropping at the time (1988) 2) Linn Troika vs Linn Basik (wow - a £500 cartridge blows away an £80 one!) Since then it's all been rather small improvements to be honest. Picking up David's point, I tend to use a handfull of tracks to assess initial quality. This is followed by long listening to a wide variety of material, including some difficult digital renderings. For example, I often use: School from Crime of the Century by Supertramp. The cymbals when they arrive are a big help to me. One Night In Paris by 10CC - a wealth of detail to be retrieved Sledgehammer (Peter Gabriel, So remastered) - can be like nails on glass on some systems, especially when LOUD) Mezzanine (any track) by Massive Attack...good for bass control/response...this disc can set rooms into a resonant frenzy! In Between Dreams by Jack Johnson - astonishingly natural sounding vocals and guitar - if it doesn't sound like he is in the room then something is wrong. Bells of Berlin by Lone Star from Firing on All Six - this is a really dynamic rock track that will sound dreadful if the system lacks dynamic capabilities. It also has challenging synth tones and a really good drum track. Thank god that you're replying here :-)) -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Phil Leigh;295533 Wrote: Hmmm...not sure what you mean, Haraldo. :o) I will hear what the DS is like at 10am tomorrow... Well I'm not sure what I mean too Just thought it was a very well formulated post Awaiting your post at 10:01am -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
My local audio shop is hosting Ivor T. himself next week for a demonstration of the Klimax DS and the less expensive Akurate DS. I'll be hearing them both that evening, but I wish I could bring my SB3 and laptop to do a quick comparison!! That would scandalize everyone there, I'm sure. -- sc53 sc53's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8690 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
sc53;295568 Wrote: My local audio shop is hosting Ivan Tiefenbrun himself next week for a demonstration of the Klimax DS and the less expensive Akurate DS. I'll be hearing them both that evening, but I wish I could bring my SB3 and laptop to do a quick comparison!! That would scandalize everyone there, I'm sure. Yeah ! The bad thing about such events is that you get to superdupermegaoptimized room, everything is perfect and electronics costing a fortune You buy the thing and get it home and you're not even close to what you hear in the demo. Because the demo is not about the DS, but about demoing a mega-expensive rig. And then you realize that you may have to change everything else to get close to the performance in the demo Ooops and then the room If you brought an SB3 and a Benchmark DAC1, I'm not sure people would hear any difference whatsoever But of course the design of the DS is stunning -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
haraldo wrote: The bad thing about such events is that you get to superdupermegaoptimized room, everything is perfect and electronics costing a fortune Ooops and then the room Speaker placement, and then room accoustics are the best bang for the buck audiophile improvement. If you brought an SB3 and a Benchmark DAC1, I'm not sure people would hear any difference whatsoever Yes, I used a Squezeboxen to DAC-1 for years and was very happy. I switched to the Transporter when I got it, but even now I'm not sure which is better they both sound wonderful, in my room. I've got a decent system Classé amp, Sonus Faber speakers, Rel sub. Its about all I can do with acceptable WAF. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
tomjtx;293772 Wrote: In your comparo did you level match with an SPL meter and do it blind? If not, the comparo and your conclusions are w/o merit. A db diff will be mistakenly perceived as a qualitative diff. A sighted comparo is invalid due to expectation bias. They may be without merit to you, but not to others lurking here. There's one or two people round here who need to read the forum header: It says Slimdevices, not Hydrogenaudio! The DBT point of view is by no means universally held here. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Right you are Bigfool--I always appreciate subjective opinions and understand that MMMV. Surprised you got such a hostile reaction to your review! I have read elsewhere (including Stereophile) that the software interface is very rudimentary and needs improvement -- sc53 sc53's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8690 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
sc53;293923 Wrote: Right you are Bigfool--I always appreciate subjective opinions and understand that MMMV. Surprised you got such a hostile reaction to your review! I have read elsewhere (including Stereophile) that the software interface is very rudimentary and needs improvement Well not my review, but I was interested in the comments. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
bigfool1956;293926 Wrote: Well not my review, but I was interested in the comments. The conclusions are flawed if the comparison was not done with level matched sources. and not just level matched by ear There is no escaping that. DBT is somewhat of another matter. However one can't rule out expectation bias in a sighted test, period. Short term testing does have it's own pitfalls and long term listening is preferable. Long term sighted comparo's followed by some blind testing which corroborates the sighted testing would be the most convincing . These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
tomjtx wrote: bigfool1956;293926 Wrote: Well not my review, but I was interested in the comments. The conclusions are flawed if the comparison was not done with level matched sources. and not just level matched by ear There is no escaping that. DBT is somewhat of another matter. However one can't rule out expectation bias in a sighted test, period. Short term testing does have it's own pitfalls and long term listening is preferable. Long term sighted comparo's followed by some blind testing which corroborates the sighted testing would be the most convincing . These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
The one thing I rarely see is an explanation as to what each items does, how it sounds, and musical references to those examples. That would be the most interesting. In addition I would like to know what was done to accomodate each item, in terms of partnering equipment (including stands and cabling), and if any thought was given to the repositioning of the speakers - something that is often required. In the end this is a forum, and not a hifi magazine. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
I hope to be hearing the DS later this month - so I will refrain from commenting on it until then, except to say that I doubt it will blow away the SB into a good dac, never mind a transporter. In 30 years I've only heard two blow away moments...(I guess I must get out more) 1) Linn Aktiv Bariks vs passive - that was jaw dropping at the time (1988) 2) Linn Troika vs Linn Basik (wow - a £500 cartridge blows away an £80 one!) Since then it's all been rather small improvements to be honest. Picking up David's point, I tend to use a handfull of tracks to assess initial quality. This is followed by long listening to a wide variety of material, including some difficult digital renderings. For example, I often use: School from Crime of the Century by Supertramp. The cymbals when they arrive are a big help to me. One Night In Paris by 10CC - a wealth of detail to be retrieved Sledgehammer (Peter Gabriel, So remastered) - can be like nails on glass on some systems, especially when LOUD) Mezzanine (any track) by Massive Attack...good for bass control/response...this disc can set rooms into a resonant frenzy! In Between Dreams by Jack Johnson - astonishingly natural sounding vocals and guitar - if it doesn't sound like he is in the room then something is wrong. Bells of Berlin by Lone Star from Firing on All Six - this is a really dynamic rock track that will sound dreadful if the system lacks dynamic capabilities. It also has challenging synth tones and a really good drum track. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Back now :) yep, had a reallly good listen to it. Audio quality is stunning, but I'm a bit disappointed by the user interface and lack of control options. No ability to save playlists or shuffle/random. I had the unit also magically switch itself on quite a few times and start playing, very strange. I also experienced ALOT of issues with it playing back files - it would play 4-8seconds and stop, skip the track and try another. These same files playback fine through Foobar2000 or the Transporter so I'm not sure what was happening but definitely not acceptable for a $8950 AUD product. I decided against buying the Akurate DS until such time as the software issues are ironed out and there are more user features - its really lacking in this department so far.. Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
In your comparo did you level match with an SPL meter and do it blind? If not, the comparo and your conclusions are w/o merit. A db diff will be mistakenly perceived as a qualitative diff. A sighted comparo is invalid due to expectation bias. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris, Are you feeling better? -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris, Any updates to share? Thanks, Bill -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
I do, really sick at the moment.. will post some thoughts later -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
There are some indications that the new Squeezebox Duet is sounding better or equal with the Linn Ikemi, when you are using the analog output and compare side by side. This can be read on the Swedish site, Faktiskt.se, where me and a friend has done some comparisons in an all Linn rig. The sound was definitely better from the Squeezebox receivers analog output, than by Linns preamp 5103:s own internal dacs. When we compared the sound Ikemi/versus Squeezebox duet receiver the sound was of, I should say, an equal quality. Is it the Wolfson DAC that does the trick for squeezebox receiver ? It would surely be very interesting to hear some comments about that, from the designer of the Squeezebox Duet! What makes it sound that good? My friend has sold his Ikemi now, because he feels the sound is not any worse from the duet receiver. -- Paradigm Paradigm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Paradigm;290254 Wrote: The Linn cinema preamp was realy state of the art at 1997. No cd-player we have tested before, has been sounding better than the internal DAcs used in 5103, with the exeption of the Linn Ikemi, in my friends Linn rigg ( Majik 140, 5125, 5103 ). It is very interesting that sound quality has been developing so much at resent times- the same sound can be had for much less money, apparently. Digital sources have become better and better since the early 90`s but i believe that using hardisk playback technology is the key that made digital mature. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
harmonic;290234 Wrote: To be fair the ikemi is a discountinued product (since 2002 i beleive ) a more fair comparioson would be one of the unidisk players. The preamp with the dac you used is from 1997 no wonder the 2008 duet`s analog out sounds better. Why the duet sounds so good? i think its more because of the bit perfect transport mecanisem then the dac, il never go back to disk spinners somhave the sound from a hardisk based player always sounds more right. I have the linn unidisk sc wich ar a disk spinner/preamp/dac and i can compare sb3 analog out vs sb3 diigital out into SC and Sc playing disks, no doubt the unidisk sc sounds better then asb3 analog outs , sound is more musical more solid dynamic and great bass depth. Haveever using the sb3´s digital outs into unidisk sounds better then the unidisk´S owen transporter . Very interesting ! This was my först contact with a streaming mediaplayer. If what you say is true, there is no need to spend much cash on an expensive transport. Maybe this is something that also Linn has discovered, because they seem to focus on computerbased musicplayers in their new lineup. What is very interesting, is that we encountered that the Squeezebox receiver sounded better than the internal dacs that are used in the Linn 5103. Maybe this is an indikation on that Squeezebox duet sound better than the SB 3, if you use the analog outputs. I have not heard the SB 3, but it uses a different dac, and a different buffert. In the Squeezebox receiver, a Wolfson dac is used with an internal buffert/linedriver. Maybe this is the thing that does the trick ? For all I know, the digital stages before the dac is the same in receiver and SB 3. What are your comment on that, and what is the constructer of Squeezebox duet saying about it ? -- Paradigm Paradigm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
To be fair the ikemi is a discountinued product (since 2002 i beleive ) a more fair comparioson would be one of the unidisk players. The preamp with the dac you used is from 1997 no wonder the 2008 duet`s analog out sounds better. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
haraldo;290250 Wrote: Seriously.. Since when did OLD mean poor performing =:-O Not in all aspekts of life or hifi is old worse and new bettert ; ) havever In the digital source domain i would say newer is better ; ) a bit like computers no point on argiuing what is better a comodor 64 or a mac g5. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
harmonic;290234 Wrote: T The preamp with the dac you used is from 1997 no wonder the 2008 duet`s analog out sounds better. Seriously.. Since when did OLD mean poor performing =:-O -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
haraldo;290250 Wrote: Seriously.. Since when did OLD mean poor performing =:-O The Linn cinema preamp was realy state of the art at 1997. No cd-player we have tested before, has been sounding better than the internal DAcs used in 5103, with the exeption of the Linn Ikemi, in my friends Linn rigg ( Majik 140, 5125, 5103 ). It is very interesting that sound quality has been developing so much at resent times- the same sound can be had for much less money, apparently. -- Paradigm Paradigm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
haraldo;290257 Wrote: That probably means the Linn CD12 is very bad, because it's old I think you are misunderstandig somthing on purpose. I never said that the very best past source would be bettered then eny cheap source as long as its newer. If you build a new sondek cd 12 every 2 years and the between time continued trying to improve it with better parts and design techniques it will become better and betterget it ; ). If you take a 90`s formular f1 car it will still go faster then a todays family car. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Linn Akurate DS is in with some new Kimber Kable Select KS-3033. Still need to setup the room/speakers properly as they aren't sounding too crash hot yet :( Here are some photos: http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Linn/linn1.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Linn/linn2.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6402.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6403.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6405-2.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6400.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6399.jpg Ill post a detailed review later.. -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
harmonic;290265 Wrote: I think you are misunderstandig somthing on purpose. Yes I am.. -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;290270 Wrote: Linn Akurate DS is in with some new Kimber Kable Select KS-3033. Still need to setup the room/speakers properly as they aren't sounding too crash hot yet :( Here are some photos: http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Linn/linn1.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Linn/linn2.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6402.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6403.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6405-2.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6400.jpg http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/Kimber/_MG_6399.jpg Ill post a detailed review later.. You got PM -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Paradigm;290251 Wrote: What is very interesting, is that we encountered that the Squeezebox receiver sounded better than the internal dacs that are used in the Linn 5103. You brave soul, and on an audiophile forum! Paradigm;290251 Wrote: Maybe this is an indikation on that Squeezebox duet sound better than the SB 3, if you use the analog outputs. I have not heard the SB 3, but it uses a different dac, and a different buffer Hold your horses: some people like the SB3 analogue outs. The SB3 isn't perfect, of course, but IMO it is good. The -Transporter- is perfect (joke - but I'm sure it sounds very acceptable). It would be interesting if your comparison included the SB3 and Duet head-to-head. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
It would surely be very interesting to compare the both units, side by side. Maybe they sound identical, but apparently the Duet receiver uses a different dac, with a different linedriver ( buffer ). Both the dac and buffer are Wolfson, integrated in one chip. This should sound different than the Burrbrown dac ( good ) and the mediocre NJM 2041 (buffer) used in SB3. -- Paradigm Paradigm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) When the Transporter is used as intended - a network player utilising its own DAC - SPDIF doesn't come into the equation. When you were doing your comparison against the DS, were you using the TP as a DAC, feeding it from another digital source via SPDIF? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: Everyone owes it to themself to read this: http://www.linn.co.uk/files/eaccc978/Linn%20Klimax.pdf No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) As clive pointed out you should get your facts straight. You are a rather untalented troll. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288408 Wrote: Everyone owes it to themself to read this: http://www.linn.co.uk/files/eaccc978/Linn%20Klimax.pdf No DAC with a SPDIF interface like your Transporter will touch the DS :) What does that prove? it's a subjective review Regards Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Yes it's rude to rubbish a component on the manufacturer's forum. When you do so without understanding the basic facts your comments don't appear credible. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;287620 Wrote: The transporter has nothing on the DS. Fact. Kris;287914 Wrote: w00ptee do! How about you all LISTEN to it first :) Kris, my old cheap JVC micro system blows away a Linn system. Fact. If you care to question that...how about you LISTEN to it first? Your posts appear to be designed to provoke an argument rather than illuminate anything. In other words, you are behaving like a troll. If you're not a troll, please try harder to enlighten and win over other people by using politeness and reason. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
tomjtx;288533 Wrote: As clive pointed out you should get your facts straight. You are a rather untalented troll. Well so to are you Sir :) -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
So its really just an ethernet DAC with analog and balanced outputs...How does this relate to the transporter or SB3 as the latter 2 have their major advantages as a wireless device with an excellent interface and the convenience associated with this.I really don't see the huge technological leap and bleeding edge advance of having a dac hard wired to your pc? Why even compare the klimax to them? The Linn can only really be compared to the dac built into the other units and its a given that at the price point of the other units , it's quite conceivable that they could be bested by something costing at least 10-30x more. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288544 Wrote: http://members.iinet.net.au/~teamkk/amp.jpg Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288554 Wrote: Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. X2, speaker placement and some room treatments will make far more difference than the Linn. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
The Linn products are basically the same as the SB3 Transporter - they are systems for converting data, e.g. FLAC files, to music - not just DACs. The Linns do not have wifi - I understand this is because Linn don't want to get involved with configuring wifi for customers and sorting out those problems. Ethernet only - no bad thing if you want 24/192 too! I've mostly discounted the Linn as SqueezeCentre is so great! Having to move to TwonkyMedia would be such a downgrade, it would really impinge on the usability of the product. I do expect that the Linn sounds better, but I am happy with my sound. Have you tried an SB+? It's a Squeezebox-derived system that most who have heard them both prefer to the Transporter. It has a few limitations compared to the TP (only one screen, max res 24/48, no knob...) but does cost less. Just a thought. -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288554 Wrote: Try moving those speakers out a little - you've got them crammed into the corners of the room. You'll find that makes much, much, much more difference than replacing the Transporter with the Linn. Not only that, it costs infinitely less. Where to can you suggest? perhaps mark some RED X's on the photograph Its difficult to move them though , simply because of the room size/shape I am working on obtain a SPL meter/mic and some software to analyse the room and see where I can make some improvements. Any suggestions would be great -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Try listen nearfield , you and the speakers in an equilateral 6 ft triangle , peraps elongate it to your side 7-8ft, make sure you and speakers arent near walls or corners. Try the speakers dead ahead and then try toe them in. Looks like right speaker is in a corner and the other in not so sharp a corner.or is that just the pic? Im also sure that stuff in the middle is affecting stereo imaging etc. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288729 Wrote: Where to can you suggest? perhaps mark some RED X's on the photograph Its difficult to move them though , simply because of the room size/shape I am working on obtain a SPL meter/mic and some software to analyse the room and see where I can make some improvements. Any suggestions would be great I would get a narrower system stand and allow the speakers to be closer together. You normally don't want a speaker in the corner like that left one. I would expect a new system stand to be a lot cheaper than most of your upgrades :) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
adamslim;288749 Wrote: I would get a narrower system stand and allow the speakers to be closer together. You normally don't want a speaker in the corner like that left one. I would expect a new system stand to be a lot cheaper than most of your upgrades :) Edit: you could put the power amps outside of the speakers on some granite slabs or something... The stand is definitely not ideal, and yes it is far too wide :( My gf insisted on it (I had a fantastic sound style stand I was forced to sell as she hated it) Moving the left speaker forward would mean it blocks the door way to the room on the left - I guess getting a different stand would be the best as I could move them forward and towards each other :( -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Rodney_Gold;288737 Wrote: Try listen nearfield , you and the speakers in an equilateral 6 ft triangle , peraps elongate it to your side 7-8ft, make sure you and speakers arent near walls or corners. Try the speakers dead ahead and then try toe them in. Looks like right speaker is in a corner and the other in not so sharp a corner.or is that just the pic? Im also sure that stuff in the middle is affecting stereo imaging etc. Right speaker has a old angled fireplace area, so yeah its not really a corner. Left speaker is a dud - cant really move it (a tad forward and a tad in (like 2) but thats about it. The whole place is really awful for audio :( -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Kris;288796 Wrote: Right speaker has a old angled fireplace area, so yeah its not really a corner. Left speaker is a dud - cant really move it (a tad forward and a tad in (like 2) but thats about it. The whole place is really awful for audio :( You really don't want speakers so close to either the front or side wall if you can possibly avoid it. If you move them out at least three feet from both walls and sit facing them (in a rough equilateral triangle arrangement) with at least three feet behind your head to the back wall, I can promise you'll hear an amazing improvement in sound state and imaging. I think this is because 3-4 feet corresponds to enough of a delay that your brain is able to differentiate the reflected and direct sound. If you can't do that (even as an experiment just to see what you're missing), I'd put some kind of diffusers/absorbers at the first reflection points. That should help. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
opaqueice;288803 Wrote: You really don't want speakers so close to either the front or side wall if you can possibly avoid it. If you move them out at least three feet from both walls and sit facing them (in a rough equilateral triangle arrangement) with at least three feet behind your head to the back wall, I can promise you'll hear an amazing improvement in sound state and imaging. I think this is because 3-4 feet corresponds to enough of a delay that your brain is able to differentiate the reflected and direct sound. If you can't do that (even as an experiment just to see what you're missing), I'd put some kind of diffusers/absorbers at the first reflection points. That should help. When the DS arrives on Friday I'll do that just to test and see how I go. My listening position is a sofa infront, triangled from the speakers. However the sofa sits against the wall - again not idea but most rooms arent. Ill try it using the methods suggested here and see what I find :) Thanks -- Kris Kris's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
