subject:"Re\: COVENANT of the Prophets \[Sura 3 verse 81\] was \[RE\: Perennialism\]"

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:48:46 -0800 (PST), John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> *** 
> Gilberto, it doesn't seem like you are familiar with the Persian Language.
> It is very flowery.  Reading Khazeh's writing styles is like listening to
> persians speaking among themselves, or like reading persian books in
> persian.  I personally enjoy it.

No, I realized to some degree there is a cultural aspect to it. 
I was just expressing a preference.

Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:09:22 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I feel very sad as I leave this discussion that after all my missives my
> brother Gilberto has not read the article this servant co-wrote on the Seal
> of the Prophets...
> 
> If he were to really read it without any preconception he would really come
> to a different understanding.

That's not actually true. I did read it for a while before coming to
the Bahai studies list, maybe by several months. Susan had pointed me
to it after the discussion had come up on soc.reglion.bahai. I
actually really liked it as an article. It wasn't just one sided and
did a decent job of presenting the back-and-forth of the various
arguments. Actually pointing to the hadith which say prophethood has
ended or the statement from Nahj-ul-Balagha to the same effect for
example. I especially liked the Perennialism stuff at the end. In
terms of Bahai persepctives, Cole's approach seemed the most
respectful and elegant. If I remember correctly, he points out that
the Bab and Bahaullah didn't refer to themselves as prophets and he
argues that one way to resolve the various claims is to actually agree
with Muslims and say that Muhammad really is the last prophet, and to
say that the Bab and Bahaullah were Manifestations of a different
kind, and not prophets.

But Bahais in general don't seem to be making that argument. And
especially given Cole's position in the Bahai community I wonder to
what extent he can really speak to what "the Bahai faith" teaches.  It
seems the typical Bahai would rather insist that Muslims are just
wrong, and veiled, and confused, and that Muhammad really isn't the
last prophet. And that attitude seems more representative of Bahais.
Especially since the writings actually do insist on calling them prophets.

I've indirectly asked for clarification about the above point and it
seems like the Bahai position isn't really clear.

If Muhammad is the last manifestation of the cycle of prophecy that
would neatly fit into Cole's argument but that is not what Bahais are
uniformly saying. Some days it seems like they'll say Muhammad is the
last. Other times they'll say that the Bab is the last. And the matter
seems too inconclusive to accept Cole's argument as representative.

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread Smaneck




In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:59:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The 
  Prophet married her (by traditional accounts) when she was seven, but did not 
  consumate the marriage until she was eleven. That seems reasonable to me by 
  the standards of the time.
Dear Scott, 
 
There are some hadith accounts that suggest she may have been as old as her 
late teens. I couldn't tell you which account is more reliable, however. But 
yes, girls usually married as soon after puberty as possible in antiquity. 
Chances are the Virgin Mary was about 14 when she gave birth to Christ. Any 
older than that and she would have already been wed. 
 
warmest, Susan 
 

 
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/2/2005 5:43:35 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That's actually kind of interesting. I honestly don't know what verseof the Quran one could site to say one thing or another about the ageof Aishah or her marriage to the prophet.A good article discussing this issue is at:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.htmlThe basic argument is that the prophet really did marry Aishah whenshe was young but such a marriage was typical for that time and place.In any case, she was treated well and it wasn't a moral issue.  (Aninteresting argument they make is that in the long history ofMuslim-Christian apolegetics and debate it wasn't till recently tillAishah's age became an issue, because it wasn't atypical untilrecently).
I certainly believe that the custom of the people was that when a woman menstruated she was marriagable. The Prophet married her (by traditional accounts) when she was seven, but did not consumate the marriage until she was eleven. That seems reasonable to me by the standards of the time. However, there are contemporary (mostly fundamental Christians) who raise a great stink against Islam by pointing to this as "child molestation". They are guilty of course of thinking that the Arabs of the time were "barbarians" and there "barbarian" behaviors were "crimes" at the time. They are applying modern standards to a culture totally divorced from modern standards. This is pitiable, in my estimation and profoundly shocking to my education as an historian.
 
Doctor Khalid counters this by pointing out the Qur'anic descriptions of marriage and saying it is a contract between individuals and a child cannot enter into such a contract within the Qur'anic parameters, therefore, by his estimation it never happened. I believe that fond thoughts do not historical accuracy make. Ihave however used his arguments when it is pointless to try to convince them that they are trying to imprint modern standards on a different time and place.
 
"  > It comes down to this for me as an outsider (to Islam) where hadith and> Qur'an would seem to disagree hadith must give way if the text and the> tradition cannot be brought  into juxtaposition.That's fair enough. Muslims would apply the same standard."
 
Thank you, I enjoy very much the threads to which you have added I would not miss them for the world.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


Dear John Smith

John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
May my life be an offering for your kind words.

Yes I am a Persian married to an Egyptian...

But in relation to writing and style of writing this servant of yours is
influenced [or hopes to be influenced by the Advice of the Universal House
of Justice]

With genuine gratitude to you dear John Smith your humble aspiring servant
kf

**
Baha'u'llah warns us that "the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of
speech a deadly poison." "Material fire consumeth the body," He says in
elaborating the point, "whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart
and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects
of the latter endureth a century." In tracing the framework of free speech,
He again advises "moderation". "Human utterance is an essence which aspireth
to exert its influence and needeth moderation", He states, adding: "As to
its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is
dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation,
this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy
Scriptures and Tablets."
ALSO RELEVANT TO WHAT IS SAID, AND HOW, IS WHEN IT IS SAID. For speech, as
for so many other things, there is a season. Baha'u'llah reinforces this
understanding by drawing attention to the maxim that, "Not everything that a
man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be
regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited
to the capacity of those who hear it."

  Speech is a powerful phenomenon. Its freedom is both to be extolled
and feared. It calls for an acute exercise of judgement, since both the
limitation of speech and the excess of it can lead to dire consequences

As to manner and style, Baha'u'llah has exhorted "authors among the friends"
to "write in such a way as would be acceptable to fair-minded souls, and not
lead to cavilling by the people". And He issues a reminder: "We have said in
the past THAT ONE WORD HATH THE INFLUENCE OF SPRING AND CAUSETH HEARTS TO
BECOME FRESH AND VERDANT, WHILE ANOTHER IS LIKE UNTO BLIGHT WHICH CAUSETH
THE BLOSSOMS AND FLOWERS TO WITHER."


The vantage point that gives us perspective and is the foundation of our
belief and actions rests on our recognition of the sovereignty of God and
our submission to His will as revealed by Baha'u'llah, His supreme
Manifestation for this promised Day. To accept the Prophet of God in His
time and to abide by His bidding are the two essential, inseparable duties
which each soul was created to fulfill. One exercises these twin duties by
one's own choice, an act constituting the highest expression of the free
will with which every human being has been endowed by an all-loving
Creator the unifying spirit of the Cause of God must also be
preserved MOTIVE, MANNER, MODE, BECOME RELEVANT; BUT THERE IS ALSO THE
MATTER OF LOVE: LOVE FOR ONE'S FELLOWS, LOVE FOR ONE'S COMMUNITY, LOVE FOR
ONE'S INSTITUTIONS. The responsibility resting on the individual to conduct
himself in such a way as to ensure the stability of society takes on
elemental importance in this context
LOVE AND HARMONY, PURITY OF MOTIVE, HUMILITY AND LOWLINESS AMONGST THE
FRIENDS, PATIENCE AND LONG-SUFFERING IN DIFFICULTIES -- THESE INFORM THE
ATTITUDE WITH WHICH THEY PROCEED "WITH THE UTMOST DEVOTION, COURTESY,
DIGNITY, CARE AND MODERATION TO EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS", each using "perfect
liberty" both in so doing and in "unveiling the proof of his demonstration".
"If another contradicts him, he must not become excited because if there be
no investigation or verification of questions and matters, the agreeable
view will not be discovered neither understood."




Gilberto (to Khazeh):
You are very welcome. And you are being way too exaggerated in your
complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more
comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions
and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly.
Gilberto (to Khazeh):
 Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid. I
you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it.
 
***
Gilberto, it doesn't seem like you are familiar with the Persian Language.
It is very flowery.  Reading Khazeh's writing styles is like listening to
Persians speaking among themselves, or like reading persian books in
persian.  I personally enjoy it.
...John Smith



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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread John Smith



Gilberto (to Khazeh):
You are very welcome. And you are being way too exagerated in yourcomplements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel morecomfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentionsand and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly.
Gilberto (to Khazeh):
 Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid.I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it.
 
***
Gilberto, it doesn't seem like you are familiar with the Persian Language. It is very flowery.  Reading Khazeh's writing styles is like listening to persians speaking among themselves, or like reading persian books in persian.  I personally enjoy it.
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:57:22 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For a non-Muslim hadith is confusing. There is no 
> consensus as to which
> hadith are reliable and which are not.

One issue is that classification of hadith is more nuanced than
reliable/not-reliable.  Shias have a different understanding, but for
sunnis there is a rather large body of hadith which virtually everyone
would say are authentic.

On top of that, for any given issue, there is probably going to be a
high degree of overlap and redundancy. So I don't know of any question
which would actually hinge on the textual reliability of a single
hadith. More typically, would be something like finality of
prophethood (which i just finished sending out an e-mail about) where
multiple texts converge on the same point.

 Even within the larger schoolsof
> Islam there is bickering about it. Dr. Khalifa is incensed by the idea that
> the Prophet might have married a child and consummated the wedding at age
> 11. He rejects this strongly, and it is an argument constantly used against
> Islam by those who "bash" the faith of Muhammed. He takes the view that such
> a marriage is counter-Quranic and seems to carry the point well - at least
> that particular point, anyway.

That's actually kind of interesting. I honestly don't know what verse
of the Quran one could site to say one thing or another about the age
of Aishah or her marriage to the prophet.

A good article discussing this issue is at:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

The basic argument is that the prophet really did marry Aishah when
she was young but such a marriage was typical for that time and place.
In any case, she was treated well and it wasn't a moral issue.  (An
interesting argument they make is that in the long history of
Muslim-Christian apolegetics and debate it wasn't till recently till
Aishah's age became an issue, because it wasn't atypical until
recently).

>  This would throw all the hadith accredited to
> Aisha out the window, and there are a lot of them.

This is really problematic. I agree with Susan (wow, it always feels
funny when I type that) that by throwing out hadith, Rashid Khalifa's
group is then free to make up their own doctrine.

Also, if you don't like what the texts say it becomes really dangerous
to just edit, cut and paste them according to your own pre-conceived
notions of right and wrong. Once you start doing that, you are going
down the road of making up your own religion instead of following what
God is telling you to do. It's more honest to just reject the religion
altogether rather than modify it to your own tastes. In the end,
that's ultimately  what Khalifa did. He ultimately started to throw
out verses from the Quran too because they didn't fit his mathematical
scheme.

>  
> It comes down to this for me as an outsider (to Islam) where hadith and
> Qur'an would seem to disagree hadith must give way if the text and the
> tradition cannot be brought  into juxtaposition.

That's fair enough. Muslims would apply the same standard.

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 01:43:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:32 AM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> The Qur'an warns against hadith. 
> Where does it do that? 
> 
> 
> "Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all
> the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their
> life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?"
> 7:185 
> 
> 

In another translation with more context:

[7.184] Do they not reflect that their companion has not unsoundness
in mind; he is only a plain warner.
[7.185] Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth
and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom
shall have drawn nigh; what announcement would they then believe in
after this?

It would make more sense to read this as a criticism of non-Muslims
who don't accept Muhammad. It's not a criticism of Muslims who by way
of following Muhammad, look to hadith (especially since they certainly
weren't compiled at this point)

Actually, that would be a general argument against reading the Quran
in the way you are suggesting. Hadith as they exist now simply didn't
exist in that form back then. In that time, they didn't need to
compile hadith. The companions simply remembered what they heard or
saw from the prophet directly or preserved it in collective memory. So
whatever is intended by those passages in the Quran, it would be
bizzare to interpret them asa condemnation of hadith.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:23:26 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:02:54 PM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Dear Scott,

> That is precisely Gilberto's point, that Muslims in rejecting any prophet
> after Muhammad are simply following what God said.
> Of course, but Baha`u'llah's words about the next Prophet are much clearer
> than using the word "Seal" in Muhammed's words.

The argument for finality of prophethood doesn't just rest on the word
"seal". The authoritative texts of Muslims include hadith, and there
are several different authentic hadith which in different phrasing
says or implies that Muhammad is the last prophet and last messenger.
>From the Muslim side the question is about as clear as the thousand
years is on the Bahai side.

From:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/finality_mas.htm

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/finalprophet.html

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "The tribe of Israel was guided by
prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him.
But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me."
(Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).

The Prophet of God (PBUH) affirmed: "My position in relation to the
prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example:
A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty,
but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was
missing. People looked around the building and marvelled at its
beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am
like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the
Prophets." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).

The Prophet of God (PBUH) observed: "God Almighty hath sent unto the
world no apostle who did not warn his people about the appearance of
Dajjal( Anti-Christ, but Dajjal did not appear in their time). I am
the last in the line of Prophets and ye are the last community of
believers. Without doubt,then, Dajjal shall appear from amongst ye".
(Ibn Majah, Kitabul-fitan, bab:Dajjal).

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) told Hadrat 'Ali, "You are related to me as
Aaron was related to Moses(peace be upon him). But no Apostle will
come after me." (Bukhari and Muslim, Kitab Fada'il as-Sahaba

 "I have been favoured above the prophets in six things: I have been
endowed with consummate succinctness of speech, made triumphant
through dread, war booty has been made lawful for me, the whole earth
has been made a purified place of worship for me, I have been sent to
all created beings, and the succession of prophets has been completed
in me." [related by Tirmidhi and ibn Majah]

Narrated Ayesha (RA): "Prophethood will NOT continue after me, except
the harbingers of good news". They asked "What are the harbingers of
good news, O Apostle of Allah?." He replied: "Virtuous and pious
dreams a Muslim sees or are shown to him". [4] Musnad of Imam Ahmad
ibn Hanbal

And there are others

Peace

Gilberto

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread Susan Maneck

 " For a non-Muslim hadith is confusing. There is no consensus as to which
hadith are reliable and which are not."

Dear Scott,

There is a consensus, though it may not be based on the best criteria. But
hadiths are usually classed as 'sound' or 'weak' by virtue of their chain of
transmission.

 "Dr. Khalifa is incensed by the idea that the Prophet might have married a
child and consummated the wedding at age 11. He rejects this strongly, and
it is an argument constantly used against Islam by those who "bash" the
faith of Muhammed. He takes the view that such a marriage is counter-Quranic
and seems to carry the point well - at least that particular point, anyway.
This would throw all the hadith accredited to Aisha out the window, and
there are a lot of them."

Gee, I suppose we can dispense with the fact Baha'u'llah had more than one
wife the same way! And we can ignore the fact the Bab had slaves . . .

"It comes down to this for me as an outsider (to Islam) where hadith and
Qur'an would seem to disagree hadith must give way if the text and the
tradition cannot be brought  into juxtaposition."

Yes, but from the standpoint of Muslims the hadith support their
interpretation of what might otherwise be a somewhat ambiguous verse. I'm
not saying they are right, only that they are not being unreasonable. The
Jews weren't being unreasonable when they insisted Jesus couldn't be the
Messiah according to scripture either. Reasonable or not, they were still
wrong. Ultimately a Manifestation must be recognized on His own terms.

warmest, Susan


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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-02 Thread Popeyesays

In a message dated 1/2/2005 1:24:13 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Dear Scott,
I see you have been visiting Dr. Khalifa's website. ;-} I would be very careful with that material. He had his own agenda. These verses do not at all refer to the oral traditions of the prophet. Hadith is a fairly common term meaning 'report.' You will note that in this context the Qur'an is treated is called a hadith.
warmest, Ssuan
For a non-Muslim hadith is confusing. There is no consensus as to which hadith are reliable and which are not. Even within the larger schoolsof Islam there is bickering about it. Dr. Khalifa is incensed by the idea that the Prophet might have married a child and consummated the wedding at age 11. He rejects this strongly, and it is an argument constantly used against Islam by those who "bash" the faith of Muhammed. He takes the view that such a marriage is counter-Quranic and seems to carry the point well - at least that particular point, anyway. This would throw all the hadith accredited to Aisha out the window, and there are a lot of them.
It has some reminders of the position of orthodox and other Jews regarding the nature of the Talmud - is it unwritten Torah or is it merely commentary? Getting Jews to agree is sometimes difficult.
It comes down to this for me as an outsider (to Islam) where hadith and Qur'an would seem to disagree hadith must give way if the text and the tradition cannot be brought into juxtaposition. Baha`u'llah says the term "Seal" of the Prophets must be considered in one light and the literalist muslim would say it must be considered in only ONE light. The term "Seal" ahs too many meanings relevant to its use in the Qur'an to allow it only to be defined as "last and no more". Even when it is a cork in the bottle, the purpose of the cork is NOT to deny access to the wine, but to preserve its purity.
Regards,
Scott
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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

I realize the English translation of those verses is different than I am
used to, but they are quoted from an Islamic site that does not credit
hadith in general.

Dear Scott,

Yes, I noted that. Rashad Khalifa led a "Qur'an alone" movement which
rejected the hadiths entirely. It made it possible for him to interpret
Islam pretty much any way he wanted to and he sort of ended up with his own
cult following in Tucson where I used to live. He is also the one who came
up with all this stuff about the numerical value of everything in the Qur'an
egually 19 which Baha'is got very excited about a few years back. But as
Mark can tell you, you can do this with virtually any text. I'm afraid he
placed games with the Qur'an here. Sort of like if you were to pick up the
Qur'an find where the term 'cause' occurs and say, "See how often the Baha'i
Faith is referred to?"

warmest, Susan



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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




Dear Scott, 

 
I see you have been 
visiting Dr. Khalifa's website. ;-} I would be very careful with that material. 
He had his own agenda. These verses do not at all refer to the oral traditions 
of the prophet. Hadith is a fairly common term meaning 'report.' You will note 
that in this context the Qur'an is treated is called a hadith. 

 
warmest, Ssuan 

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


The Qur'an warns against hadith. 

Where does it do that? 
I realize the English translation of those verses is different than I am used to, but they are quoted from an Islamic site that does not credit hadith in general.
 
Scott
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The Qur'an warns against hadith.

Where does it do that?

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6

"God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23
[
039.023 YUSUFALI: Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide. PICKTHAL: Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah's reminder. Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. SHAKIR: Allah has revealed the best announcement, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.]

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6
[
045.006 YUSUFALI: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? PICKTHAL: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe? SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications? ]

"Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34
[
052.033 YUSUFALI: Or do they say, "He fabricated the (Message)"? Nay, they have no faith! PICKTHAL: Or say they: He hath invented it? Nay, but they will not believe! SHAKIR: Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.
052.034 YUSUFALI: Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth! PICKTHAL: Then let them produce speech the like thereof, if they are truthful. SHAKIR: Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.
052.035 YUSUFALI: Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? PICKTHAL: Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators? SHAKIR: Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators? ]

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44
[068.044 YUSUFALI: Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not. PICKTHAL: Leave Me (to deal) with those who give the lie to this pronouncement. We shall lead them on by steps from whence they know not. SHAKIR: So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not: ]

"Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?" 77:50
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-01 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:57:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The 
  Qur'an warns against hadith. 

Where does it do that? 
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:53:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Scott,What I don't get is what is your point here?
Well, it shows to me that Muhammed was well aware of the nature of a seal for authentication and validation. So it seems to me that using the term in describing Himself as the "Seal of the Prophets"must be taken in with that understanding.
 
The Qur'an warns against hadith. If one uses hadith to justify a belief that there can be no further Revelation after Muhammed, is this justifiable scripturally?
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Later in His life Muhammed found it necessary to conduct correspondence with
the Byzantines. They ignored letters that were not "sealed" a recognizable
seal being a sign of authoirty. It is recounted that Muhammed had a series
of ring seals made to authenticate His correspondence headed to Byzantium.

Dear Scott,

What I don't get is what is your point here?

"I agree most muslims put faith in the hadith of the  last sermon, but I
cannot equate hadith and the Qur'an."

Whether you can or not is really irrelevant. The question really is whether
or not Muslims are being faithful when they do? You can't measure them by
standards of authority we arrived at for ourselves centuries later.

warmest, Susan


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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:33:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Huh?
I think Muslims put as much stake in what Muhammad supposedly said at His last sermon as they do that verse in the Qur'an.
Later in His life Muhammed found it necessary to conduct correspondence with the Byzantines. They ignored letters that were not "sealed" a recognizable seal being a sign of authoirty. It is recounted that Muhammed had a series of ring seals made to authenticate His correspondence headed to Byzantium.
I agree most muslims put faith in the hadith of the last sermon, but I cannot equate hadith and the Qur'an. When Muhammed says in the Qur'an that He is the "Seal of the Prophets" what does He mean by the term? There is an awful lot of variability in how one might interpret it.
When Baha`u'llah wrote what He wrote in the Aqdasw about the thousand years, He was, in direct contrast to the words of Muhammed, extremely precise in explaining Himself. He was far more precise in this statement than anywhere else I can think of in the Writings.
Of course the Cause was badly harmed by individuals laying a claim to be He Whom God Will Make Manifest. I think He was being so precise to protect the position of Abdu'l Baha and future Guardians.
Scott
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-01 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:23:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
this was 
  right after Muhammed had developed a signet ring (Seal) for doing business 
  with Byzantium.

Huh? 
 
I think Muslims put as much stake in what Muhammad supposedly said at His 
last sermon as they do that verse in the Qur'an. 
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:02:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Scott,That is precisely Gilberto's point, that Muslims in rejecting any prophetafter Muhammad are simply following what God said.
Of course, but Baha`u'llah's words about the next Prophet are much clearer than using the word "Seal" in Muhammed's words. Especially since historically this was right after Muhammed had developed a signet ring (Seal) for doing business with Byzantium.
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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Baha`u'llah does not "tie the hands of God" He says what God bids Him to
say.


Dear Scott,

That is precisely Gilberto's point, that Muslims in rejecting any prophet
after Muhammad are simply following what God said.

warmest, Susan



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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

In a message dated 1/1/2005 8:07:56 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If tomorrow, somebody came andclaimed to be the next Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose hisor her claim becaues the thousand years isn't up yet. If that personpointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and Bahaiinterpretations of those texts) all include statements along the linesof "in the sight of God a thousand years is as a day" and used that toargue that the thousand years is actually metaphorical. ObedientBahais would presumably insist that the texts were clearly literal.In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive,of ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations oftheir own scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is?
Perhaps the actual words of Baha`u'llah would be useful in this instance, so that we are not saying something He does not say:
"
Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in `Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.
http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/AQD/AQD-4.html
Baha`u'llah does not "tie the hands of God" He says what God bids Him to say.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Gilberto,

At 08:07 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote:
>>I think you are looking at only one side of the question and are hung up on 
>>the word "prophet" (in order to make a seperate probably valid point). What 
>>I'm trying to get across is just that Bahais, in their own way, are also 
>>being restrictive. If tomorrow, somebody came and claimed to be the next 
>>Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose his or her claim becaues the 
>>thousand years isn't up yet.<<

That is because we believe in the continuity of Prophetic Revelation according 
to Baha'u'llah's authority and Covenant. Using the Baha'i, not the Pauline, 
definition of Prophethood, most Christians reject the possibility of any 
Prophets after Christ. Most Jews would make a similar determination regarding 
Prophets after Malachi; and most Muslims would do the same for any claimants 
after Muhammad. The Baha'i view of progressive Revelation is considerably 
different from the official positions of most branches of Judaism, 
Christianity, and Islam.

>>If that person pointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and  Bahai 
>>interpretations of those texts) all include statements along the lines of "in 
>>the sight of God a thousand years is as a day" and used that to argue that 
>>the thousand years is actually metaphorical. Obedient Bahais would presumably 
>>insist that the texts were clearly literal.<<

Personally, I would always *consider* the *possibility* it was not literal. 
However, Baha'u'llah said that the thousand years *was* literal. It would be 
very difficult getting around both what He said on the subject and Shoghi 
Effendi's interpretation of it. Nonetheless, I am open to another Prophet 
coming in the future and revealing, possibly, a thoroughly different 
Revelational paradigm. I don't think that most Jewish, Christian, and Islamic 
denominations and sects would make the same assertion.

>>In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive, of 
>>ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations of their own 
>>scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is?<<

Baha'is do not reject the possibility of future Prophets, which is the point 
Baha'u'llah was making.

>>Is there ever a limit though? Suppose tomorrow morning someone knocks on your 
>>door and says "Hi, I'm from the Church of the Flatulent Cabbage-Headed Gods 
>>from the Eight Dimension" is there a point where it just becomes wrong and 
>>ridiculous or is it ultimately anything goes?<<

I may or may not accept that person as a seer, which is admittedly a subjective 
judgement. However, I would acknowledge that the leader, if there were one, of 
that "Church" had whatever status she or claimed in the context of her or his 
paradigm. That is my approach both as a sociologist of religion and as a human 
being.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

2005-01-01 Thread Smaneck




In a message dated 1/1/2005 8:28:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That 
  strikes me as kind of an arbitrary distinction, especially in areligious 
  context. It's not like looking up who is next in the orderor succession 
  after vice-president or something. In a religiouscontext the claim is that 
  some charism, some supernatural quality isbeing transmitted. Otherwise how 
  could you guarantee infallibility.And if it is something of divine origin 
  which is being conferred, thenwhy shouldn't it be recognizable by 
  irfan?
Dear Gilberto, 
 
I may well be, but ones responsibility before God in this case does not 
rest on that recognition like it would with a Manifestation, nor are the 
believers themselves expected to evaluate whether or not the person appointed 
has either isma  or baraka. They are expected to follow and obey the 
Manifestation's will on this matter. 
> You mean like the claim in Malachi that there would be no more 
prophets> until Elijah returns?"I'm not sure what you mean. I 
just looked up Malachi. It says thatElijah would come before the great and 
terrible day of the Lord. Butit doesn't say that no more prophets would come 
in the meantime."
 
The Great Day of the Lord was understood by Jews to be a reference to the 
coming of the Messiah, and until His coming there were to be no more prophets 
"like unto Moses." 
" If the Bible hadstatements which clearly restricted the 
coming of future prophets,then just because someone believed those 
statements and applied themto Islam, I wouldn't automatically accuse the 
person of arrogance andpride and blasphemy."
 
I don't know that anyone is. But it was the Qur'an itself which applied 
this verse. 
 
" They would just be believing what theirscriptures say. I mean, 
they would be wrong. I would disagree withthem. I might argue with them. But 
I wouldn't automatically attacktheir character or motives just because of 
the way they interpretedthe Bible."
 
No one is questioning your character or your motives, Gilberto. That 
doesn't mean that useful comparisons can't be made regarding what Muslims are 
doing that are similar to what the Jews did in past dispensations. Jews were not 
unusually perverse after all. They were just human. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:00:48 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal
> criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come
> no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much
> an example of "typing up God's hands" as saying that Muhammad (saaws)
> was the last prophet."

> Dear Gilberto,
> You can't compare an issue of successorship to that of a Manifestation. In
> the case of successorship legitimacy (nass) is everything, when it comes to
> a Manifestation it is recognition (irfan) that counts.

That strikes me as kind of an arbitrary distinction, especially in a
religious context. It's not like looking up who is next in the order
or succession after vice-president or something. In a religious
context the claim is that some charism, some supernatural quality is
being transmitted. Otherwise how could you guarantee infallibility.
And if it is something of divine origin which is being conferred, then
why shouldn't it be recognizable by irfan?

> Yes, we are warned
> that a Manifestation will not come in less than a thousand years, but I
> would still judge a claimant more on the basis of their character, their
> writings, etc.
> 
> "None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of "tying up
> God's hands". They are either true or not true."

> You mean like the claim in Malachi that there would be no more prophets
> until Elijah returns?

I'm not sure what you mean. I just looked up Malachi. It says that
Elijah would come before the great and terrible day of the Lord. But
it doesn't say that no more prophets would come in the meantime.

But even if you were right about that, sure. If the Bible had
statements which clearly restricted the coming of future prophets,
then just because someone believed those statements and applied them
to Islam, I wouldn't automatically accuse the person of arrogance and
pride and blasphemy. They would just be believing what their
scriptures say. I mean, they would be wrong. I would disagree with
them. I might argue with them. But I wouldn't automatically attack
their character or motives just because of the way they interpreted
the Bible.

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:10:55 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Gilberto,
> 
> At 06:33 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote:
> >>Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal 
> >>criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no 
> >>sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an 
> >>example of "typing up God's hands" as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the 
> >>last prophet.<<
> 
> The difference, from my Baha'i point of view, is between whether one believes 
> in the continuity of Prophethood or whether one believes, for instance, that 
> the Prophets ended with Malachi or Muhammad. 

I think you are looking at only one side of the question and are hung
up on the word "prophet" (in order to make a seperate probably valid
point). What I'm trying to get across is just that Bahais, in their
own way, are also being restrictive. If tomorrow, somebody came and
claimed to be the next Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose his
or her claim becaues the thousand years isn't up yet. If that person
pointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and  Bahai
interpretations of those texts) all include statements along the lines
of "in the sight of God a thousand years is as a day" and used that to
argue that the thousand years is actually metaphorical. Obedient
Bahais would presumably insist that the texts were clearly literal.

In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive,
of ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations of
their own scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is?

> I prefer to take a much very broad view of divine Revelation than many 
> others. As I see it, and I am only expressing my own perspective, folks like 
> Meher Baba and Ramakrishna could be termed "inspired seers." I can even 
> accept Meher Baba's claim to be an avatar. However, here, I would take his 
> use of "avatar" to be merely a nominal designation for what I would call a 
> "seer." Moreover, Meher Baba, Ramakrishna, Rev. Moon, Aleister Crowley, 
> Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, etc. would, in the context of their own narrative, 
> paradigm, or taxonomy, be prophets, messiahs, and avatars.

Gilberto:
Is there ever a limit though? Suppose tomorrow morning someone knocks
on your door and says "Hi, I'm from the Church of the Flatulent
Cabbage-Headed Gods from the Eight Dimension" is there a point where
it just becomes wrong and ridiculous or is it ultimately anything
goes?

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

"Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal
criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come
no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much
an example of "typing up God's hands" as saying that Muhammad (saaws)
was the last prophet."

Dear Gilberto,

You can't compare an issue of successorship to that of a Manifestation. In
the case of successorship legitimacy (nass) is everything, when it comes to
a Manifestation it is recognition (irfan) that counts. Yes, we are warned
that a Manifestation will not come in less than a thousand years, but I
would still judge a claimant more on the basis of their character, their
writings, etc.

"None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of "tying up
God's hands". They are either true or not true."

You mean like the claim in Malachi that there would be no more prophets
until Elijah returns?

warmest, Susan




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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Hi, Gilberto,

At 06:33 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote:
>>Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal 
>>criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no 
>>sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an 
>>example of "typing up God's hands" as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the 
>>last prophet.<< 

The difference, from my Baha'i point of view, is between whether one believes 
in the continuity of Prophethood or whether one believes, for instance, that 
the Prophets ended with Malachi or Muhammad. Progressive Revelation occurs not 
only from one Prophet to the next but within Prophetic Dispensations, as well. 
So, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah will continue to unfold and become clarified 
until the next Prophet appears (and, perhaps, in a broader sense, for the next 
1/2 million years).

I prefer to take a much very broad view of divine Revelation than many others. 
As I see it, and I am only expressing my own perspective, folks like Meher Baba 
and Ramakrishna could be termed "inspired seers." I can even accept Meher 
Baba's claim to be an avatar. However, here, I would take his use of "avatar" 
to be merely a nominal designation for what I would call a "seer." Moreover, 
Meher Baba, Ramakrishna, Rev. Moon, Aleister Crowley, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam 
Ahmad, etc. would, in the context of their own narrative, paradigm, or 
taxonomy, be prophets, messiahs, and avatars.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Dear Khazeh,

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to get across. I realize
that many prophets and messengers suffered, and were persecuted and
underwent many difficulties. All I'm saying is that suffering in
doesn't prove that one is a prophet or messenger.

Peace

Gilberto

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:30:23 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My dear Gilberto
> >
> 
> Dear Khazeh,
> 
> > Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and
> > love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the
> green. 
> > I swear by God [God] this last point is not fair were you to have read and
> > seen what I have seen.
> 
> I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responding to what you literally
> wrote.
> 
> > At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the
> > Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but
> that
> > remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[
> > fairness]
> >
> 
> >
> > I love your letters
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> >
> > That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and
> truth
> > [h.aqeeqat]
> 
> Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid.
> I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it.
> 
> Khazeh:
> > > Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
> > > incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
> > > verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
> > > someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...
> 
> Gilberto:
> > But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made
> > to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing
> > gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives
> > are being transformed.
> >
> > Peace
> >
> > Gilberto
> > For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes
> >
> > * "The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors," He Himself in His
> anguish
> > has cried out, "have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst
> thou
> > present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the
> Ancient
> > Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness
> > hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels.
> 
> Gilberto:
> I'm not saying Baháu'lláh didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least
> in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world
> who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't
> mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> 
> ***You are very welcome. And you are being way too exaggerated in your
> complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more
> comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions and are
> sincerely trying to be warm and friendly.
> 
> 
> Gilberto***
> 
> Yes I am sincerely trying to be warm and friendly AND COURTEOUS [with
> respect to mentioning Sacred Personages [the Maz.aahir al Ilaahiyyah] [the
> Loci of Divine Manifestation]
> 
> Dear Brother Gilberto
> 
> I am touched also by your candour and immediate reply.
> Thank you.
> There are so many references in the holy Qur'an to the Sufferings of the
> Prophet Muhammad and the Bahá'ís point this out to those who do not
> recognize His station
> 
> Baha'u'llah refers to the Prophet's Constancy and Tribulations in great
> detail.
> The Prophet [God] reminds the People that Moses suffered too...
> 061.005
> YUSUFALI: And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye
> vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of God (sent) to
> you?" Then when they went wrong, God let their hearts go wrong. For God
> guides not those who are rebellious transgressors.
> PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why
> persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am God's messenger unto you? So
> when they went astray God sent their hearts astray. And God guideth not the
> evil-living folk.
> SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! why do you give me
> trouble? And you know indeed that I am God's messenger to you; but when they
> turned aside, God made their hearts turn aside, and God does not guide the
> transgressing people.
> ALSO
> 009.061
> YUSUFALI: Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, "He is (all)
> ear." Say, "He listens to what is best for you: he believes in God, has
> faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe." But
> those who molest the Messenger will have a grievous penalty.
> PICKTHAL: And of them are those who vex the Prophet and say: He is only a
> hearer. Say: A hearer of good for you, who believeth in God and is true to
> the believers, and a mercy for such of you as believe. Those who vex the
> messenger of God, for them there is a painful doom.
> SHAKIR:

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:37:51 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "Then I'll just say that personally it comes off is really
> insulting,"

> Dear Gilberto,

> I'm sure the Jews find that statement in the Qur'an insulting > as well. In 
> fact, I know they do.

That's fine. And if that's how a person felt I would try to be
sensitive to their feelings and not shove those passages in their face
as if I expected it to persuade them that they were wrong. That's how
I feel in here.

On a logical level, the way Bahais use the argument that Muslims are
typing up God's hands simply isn't valid or convincing.

[anecdote deleted]
>
> "especially when Bahais make not dissimilar claims about
> what kinds of people God will or won't send in the future."

> I don't recall us saying anything about what 'kinds of people' > God will 
> send. Baha'u'llah did say something about when 
> She could appear however. ;-}

Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal
criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come
no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much
an example of "typing up God's hands" as saying that Muhammad (saaws)
was the last prophet.

None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of "tying up
God's hands". They are either true or not true. The rest is pretty
much rhetoric.

Peace

Gilberto

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html

Khazeh:
> The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of t
he
> Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes.

That's the claim you are making. And that's probably one of the
essential points of difference between the Bahai faith and Islam.


Peace

Gilberto
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html


Dear Gilberto

It is midnight in my country [the place on earth which is my transitory and
transient home] ...so I will say Good Night and God bless you [God yubaarik
feeka]
BUT re your point above

There is no real difference if you think about carefully. The Text of the
Holy Qur'an says that the ***SHARI'AH***s emanate from a DEEN
The Shari'ahs the Qur'an asserts are the same as that which started with
Noah onwards.

Now clearly the Noachide Shari'ah was both the same and different from the
Abrahamic Mosaic Christian Muhammadan Shari'ahs. But the DEEN was the same.

The Bahá'ís claim still that the Deen is ONE

I will put for your enjoyment the actual Arabic verse as it may help to
unravel the mystery.
You dear Gilberto seem to be deep in Traditionalism and some of your
postings echo what I have read [and not understood of Guenon] ...so this
point may not be difficult for your good mind...
42:13. SharaAAa lakum mina alddeeni ma wassa bihi noohan waallathee
awhayna ilayka wama wassayna bihi ibraheema wamoosa waAAeesa an aqeemoo
alddeena wala tatafarraqoo feehi kabura AAala almushrikeena ma tadAAoohum
ilayhi Godu yajtabee ilayhi man yashao wayahdee ilayhi man yuneebu

Notice the Divine Revealer says *** SharaAAa lakum** ie the Shari'ah s come
unto you are proffered unto you  MINA ALDDEENI *** ie from [Min] DEEN
the DEEN ald-DEEN

042.013 
YUSUFALI: The same religion [DEEN] has He established [SHAR'AA] for you as
that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to
thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that
ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to
those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou
callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to
Himself those who turn (to Him). 
PICKTHAL: He hath ordained [SHAR'AA] for you that religion which He
commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that
which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the
religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that
unto which thou callest them. God chooseth for Himself whom He will, and
guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him). 
SHAKIR: He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh
and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon
Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein;
hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; God chooses for
Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him),
frequently.

So we can see points of Unity here
***Therein lies the strength of the unity of the Faith, of the validity of a
Revelation that claims not to destroy or belittle previous Revelations, but
to connect, unify, and fulfill them.  
***
There exist several Islamic traditions in which Muhammad closely identifies
himself with Jesus. One such tradition, presented early in The Book of
Certitude, represents the Prophet as having exclaimed: "I am Jesus."219 

  The "I am Jesus" tradition Bahá'u'lláh cites is attested primarily in
Isma'ili circles. Lawson translates one such tradition as transmitted in the
Kitáb al-Kashf, in a sermon of 'Ali known as the Khutbat al-Bayán:

"I am the Christ who heals the blind and the leprous, creating birds and
dispersing clouds." Meaning [says the commentator]: "I am the second Christ
(al-masih al-thani)I am he and he is I." At this a man stood up and asked:
"O Commander of the Faithful, was the Torah written in a foreign language or
in Arabic?"'Ali said: "[In a] foreign language, but its meaning is Arabic,
namely that Christ is the Qaim bi'l-haqq, and the king of this world and of
the next. The Qur'án itself confirms this in the verse: 'Peace be upon me
the day that I am raised up alive.' (Qur'án 19:33.) Thus 'Isa ibn Maryam is
of me and I of him, and he is the Most Great Word of God (kalimat alláh
alkubr(i) and he is the witness and I am the one testified to."220 

  The question of the authenticity of such a saying is not the issue
here, since, at any rate, the tradition represented a sentiment in Shí'í
consciousness. For Bahá'u'lláh, this tradition provided a hermeneutical key
to Jesus' Farewell Discourse and was instructive as to the real meaning of
prophetic "return."

  This type of discussion is not scholastic. It is apologetic, and opens
up the possibility for a sort of reciprocity of attributes among the
Prophets of God. In the course of Bahá'u'lláh's argument, he

RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]


"hen I'll just say that personally it comes off is really
insulting,"

Dear Gilberto,

I'm sure the Jews find that statement in the Qur'an insulting as well. In
fact, I know they do.

When I was about seventeen. I took a class on world scriptures in college
and had been asked to lead a weekly discussion group on the
Qur'an. I worked hard in that group to dissipate all of the prejudice
which surrounded people's perceptions of Islam. It so happen that a
panel on religious dialogue came to the university, made up of a
Christian, a Jew and a Muslim. The Jew and the Christian were
both fairly liberal but the Muslim proved to be so rigid-minded that
he threatened to undo everything positive I had attempted to convey
to my students. But I kept silent until this Muslim went on to say
that Islam was now the perfect religion and there would be no
prophets after him. I rose my hand at that point and asked, "Aren't
you saying that the Hand of God is tied up?" The Jew on the panel about
swallowed his cigar. He got up excitedly and yelled, "That's right, that's
right. We Jews don't say the Hand of God is tied up,
Muslims say this!"

"especially when Bahais make not dissimilar claims about
what kinds of people God will or won't send in the future."

I don't recall us saying anything about what 'kinds of people' God will
send. Baha'u'llah did say something about when She could appear however. ;-}

warmest, Susan


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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My dear Gilberto
> 

Dear Khazeh,

> Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and
> love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the
green. 
> I swear by God [God] this last point is not fair were you to have read and
> seen what I have seen.

I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responding to what you literally
wrote.

> At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the
> Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but
that
> remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[
> fairness]
> 

> 
> I love your letters

Thank you.

> 
> That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and
truth
> [h.aqeeqat]

Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid.
I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it.

Khazeh:
> > Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
> > incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
> > verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
> > someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...

Gilberto:
> But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made
> to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing
> gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives
> are being transformed.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes
> 
> * "The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors," He Himself in His
anguish
> has cried out, "have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst
thou
> present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the
Ancient
> Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness
> hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. 

Gilberto:
I'm not saying Baháu'lláh didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least
in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world
who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't
mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying.

***You are very welcome. And you are being way too exaggerated in your
complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more
comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions and are
sincerely trying to be warm and friendly. 

Gilberto***

Yes I am sincerely trying to be warm and friendly AND COURTEOUS [with
respect to mentioning Sacred Personages [the Maz.aahir al Ilaahiyyah] [the
Loci of Divine Manifestation]

Dear Brother Gilberto 

I am touched also by your candour and immediate reply.
Thank you.
There are so many references in the holy Qur'an to the Sufferings of the
Prophet Muhammad and the Bahá'ís point this out to those who do not
recognize His station

Baha'u'llah refers to the Prophet's Constancy and Tribulations in great
detail.
The Prophet [God] reminds the People that Moses suffered too...
061.005 
YUSUFALI: And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye
vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of God (sent) to
you?" Then when they went wrong, God let their hearts go wrong. For God
guides not those who are rebellious transgressors. 
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why
persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am God's messenger unto you? So
when they went astray God sent their hearts astray. And God guideth not the
evil-living folk. 
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! why do you give me
trouble? And you know indeed that I am God's messenger to you; but when they
turned aside, God made their hearts turn aside, and God does not guide the
transgressing people.
ALSO
009.061 
YUSUFALI: Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, "He is (all)
ear." Say, "He listens to what is best for you: he believes in God, has
faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe." But
those who molest the Messenger will have a grievous penalty. 
PICKTHAL: And of them are those who vex the Prophet and say: He is only a
hearer. Say: A hearer of good for you, who believeth in God and is true to
the believers, and a mercy for such of you as believe. Those who vex the
messenger of God, for them there is a painful doom. 
SHAKIR: And there are some of them who molest the Prophet and say: He is one
who believes every thing that he hears; say: A hearer of good for you (who)
believes in God and believes the faithful and a mercy for those of you who
believe; and (as for) those who molest the Messenger of God, they shall have
a painful punishment.

Baha'u'llah writes:
** For this reason did Muhammad cry out:  "No Prophet of God hath
suffered such harm as I have suffered."  And in the Qur'an are recorded all
the calumnies and reproaches uttered against Him, as well as all the
afflictions which He su

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:25:37 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Gilberto
> 
> I really liked your letter below. Truly one can say reading this that the
> Spirit of God working through your knowledge of the Islamic Dispensation has
> warmed your soul [Nafs] your spirit [Ruh.] and your mind ['aql]

You are very welcome. And you are being way too exagerated in your
complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more
comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions
and and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly.

> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html
> 
> We are learning together so to speak...
> 
> [I am sorry re the Hand of God being chained being misunderstood. The Hand
> of God is operating even as we speak through His guidance ...]
> 
> Now as to your points below

[Khazeh brought up the following as a reference to the Bahai dispensation]
> [Yusuf Ali]
> > 034.029
> They say: "When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the
> truth?"
> > 034.030
> >  Say: "The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put
> > back for an hour nor put forward."

Gilberto:
> Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make
> me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to
> world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a
> portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi.
> Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of
> people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the
> Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an
> appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow
> down.

> Khazeh:
> > But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering
> > what  exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the
> > significance of an  Event [be it the significance of their won soul or li
> fe] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the
> Bab and  Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'án
> nic verses?
> 
> Gilberto:
> No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an
> event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it
> means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of
> the people who have read it through the centuries.   [POINT NUMBER ONE]
> Because most of
> the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a
> position to see the Bab or Baháu'lláh.

Khazeh:
> Re this point Number One it is not the physical seeing it is the seeing with
> love with acceptance with inner submission to the will of God.

Gilberto:
No. I was the one who mentioned seeing. You are misinterpreting what
I'm saying. All I'm saying is that the above passage makes more sense
to me as a reference to our individual appointment to "meet out maker"
as opposed to the arrival of the Bab or Bahaullah. If you disagree.
That's ok. I'm not trying to convince you.



Khazeh:
> 
> Re your SECOND POINT
> [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is
> between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority);
> you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not
> then mind?
> [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then
> shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand
> years of what you count.
> 
> [SECOND POINT]What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of
> Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should
> start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about
> Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that
> there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven
> to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be
> the case.
> 
> 
> My reply re this second point.
> 
> On the broader context of the Divine Providence of course I agree with you
> and greatly ADMIRE  your loving reference to the same Verse and Text.
> 
> But there is a subtler more nuanced reference here.
> 
> The Affair in the verse is AMR in the Arabic
> 032.005
> SHAKIR: He regulates the AFFAIR [al-AMR] from the heaven to the earth; then
> shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of
> what you count. 
> *
>
> Because of a considerable amount of background in my humble possession re
> this AMR this AMR is read as the AMR of God. The Cause of God. The Faith of
> God.

Gilberto:
But you didn't answer any of the questions?!? What about that passage
lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years
or that the 1000 year period should
> start when the imamate ends?



> You also said:
> Gilberto
> Gilberto:
> I agree. As a Sunni I'm supposed to try to cultivate a love for Ahl
> al-Bayt. That doesn't mean that Shi'is are right automatically.
> 
> There is an

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:42:55 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My dear Gilberto
> 

Dear Khazeh,


> Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and
> love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green. 
> I swear by God [Allah] this last point is not fair were you to have read and
> seen what I have seen.

I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responsding to what you literally wrote.

> At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the
> Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that
> remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[
> fairness]
> 

> 
> I love your letters

Thank you.

> 
> That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth
> [h.aqeeqat]


Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid.
I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it.

Khazeh:
> > Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
> > incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
> > verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
> > someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...

Gilberto:
> But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made
> to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing
> gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives
> are being transformed.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes
> 
> * "The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors," He Himself in His anguish
> has cried out, "have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou
> present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient
> Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness
> hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. 

Gilberto:
I'm not saying Bahaullah didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least
in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world
who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't
mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying.




"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

My dear Gilberto 

Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and
love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green.

I swear by God [Allah] this last point is not fair were you to have read and
seen what I have seen.

At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the
Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that
remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[
fairness]

God forbid it reminds me of the dismissive remark that the Imam Husayn's
Life would not have ended in Martyrdom on the fields of Karbila had He not
sought what He sought...

We have to be careful in all our remarks.

I love your letters 

That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth
[h.aqeeqat]

Humble and lowly towards the footsteps of His awliya khazeh
> We  must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent.
> 

> Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
> incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
> verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
> someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...

But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made
to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing
gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives
are being transformed.

Peace

Gilberto
For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes

* "The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors," He Himself in His anguish
has cried out, "have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou
present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient
Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness
hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels.  I swear by God!
His heart, His soul, and His vitals are melted!" "Wert thou to hear with
Mine ear," He also declares, "thou wouldst hear how Ali [the Bab] bewaileth
Me in the presence of the Glorious Companion, and how Muhammad weepeth over
Me in the all-highest Horizon, and how the Spirit [Jesus] beateth Himself
upon the head in the heaven of My decree, by reason of what hath befallen
this Wronged One at the hands of every impious sinner."  "Before Me," He
elsewhere has written, "riseth up the Serpent of wrath with jaws stretched
to engulf Me, and behind Me stalketh the lion of anger intent on tearing Me
in pieces, and above Me, O My Well-Beloved, are the clouds of Thy decree,
raining upon Me the showers of tribulations, whilst beneath Me are fixed the
spears of misfortune, ready to wound My limbs and My body."  "Couldst thou
be told," He further affirms, "what hath befallen the Ancient Beauty, thou
wouldst flee into the wilderness, and weep with a great weeping.  In thy
grief, thou wouldst smite thyself on the head, and cry out as one stung by
the sting of the adder  By the righteousness of God! Every morning I
arose from My bed I discovered the hosts of countless afflictions massed
behind My door, and every night when I lay down, lo! My heart was torn with
agony at what it had suffered from the fiendish cruelty of its foes.  With
every piece of bread the Ancient Beauty breaketh is coupled the assault of a
fresh affliction, and with every drop He drinketh is mixed the bitterness of
the most woeful of trials.  He is preceded in every step He taketh by an
army of unforeseen calamities, while in His rear follow legions of agonizing
sorrows." 
 Was it not He Who, at the early age of twenty-seven, spontaneously
arose to champion, in the capacity of a mere follower, the nascent Cause of
the Bab?  Was He not the One Who by assuming the actual leadership of a
proscribed and harrassed sect exposed Himself, and His kindred, and His
possessions, and His rank, and His reputation to the grave perils, the
bloody assaults, the general spoliation and furious defamations of both
government and people?  Was it not He - the Bearer of a Revelation, Whose
day "every Prophet hath announced," for which "the soul of every Divine
Messenger hath thirsted," and in which "God hath proved the hearts of the
entire company of His Messengers and Prophets" - was not the Bearer of such
a Revelation, at the instigation of Shi'ih ecclesiastics and by order of the
Shah himself forced, for no less than four months, to breathe, in utter
darkness, whilst in the company of the vilest criminals and freighted down
with galling chains, the pestilential air of the vermin-infested
subterranean dungeon of Tihran - a place which, as He Himself subsequently
declared, was mysteriously converted into the very scene of the annunciation
made to Him by God of His Prophethood? 
*



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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:17:12 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Khazeh: 
> In one sense one should go beyond a discussion over Names. If you dear
> Gilberto wish to look at the Writings of Baha'u'llah as that emanating from
> a WALI then that is certainly a start.

Gilberto:
But then from a certain perspective we should point out that Islam has
plenty of awliya. In addition to the Quran and Sunnah and the writings
of philosophers there are volumes and volumes from the various awliya
and scholars of this ummah through the centuries. Abdul Qadir Jilani,
Ghazzali, Rumi, the other  founders of the various Sufi orders, etc.

> The important point is to commence as no day that passes can be repeated. In
> the Christian world someone like Hans Kung who accepts the prophethood of
> Muhammad as that of an Old Testament Prophet has at least started somewhere.

That's actually really interesting. I've heard of Hand Kung but I am
not really familiar with him. I guess he's a Catholic "heretic" of
sorts?

> We  must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent.
> 

> Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
> incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
> verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
> someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...

But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made
to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing
gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives
are being transformed.

Peace

Gilberto

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Dear Gilberto 

I really liked your letter below. Truly one can say reading this that the
Spirit of God working through your knowledge of the Islamic Dispensation has
warmed your soul [Nafs] your spirit [Ruh.] and your mind ['aql]

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html

We are learning together so to speak...

[I am sorry re the Hand of God being chained being misunderstood. The Hand
of God is operating even as we speak through His guidance ...]

Now as to your points below


Khazeh:
> But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering 
> what  exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the 
> significance of an  Event [be it the significance of their won soul or li
fe] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the
 Bab and  Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'án
nic verses?

Gilberto:
No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an
event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it
means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of
the people who have read it through the centuries.   [POINT NUMBER ONE]
Because most of
the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a
position to see the Bab or Baháu'lláh.

Re this point Number One it is not the physical seeing it is the seeing with
love with acceptance with inner submission to the will of God.

Pilate saw Jesus. In fact there is a passage in John where the soldiers
bring Him and say **ECCE HOMO** Behold the Man

And similarly in Mecca they said what manner of man is this who eats food

025.005 
YUSUFALI: And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be
written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." 
PICKTHAL: And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath had written
down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. 
SHAKIR: And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them
written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening. 

025.006 
YUSUFALI: Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery
(that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful." 
025.007 
YUSUFALI: And they say: "What sort of a messenger is this, who eats food,
and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to
give admonition with him? ...
025.020 
YUSUFALI: And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate
food and walked through the streets: We have made some of you as a trial for
others: will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things).


Re your SECOND POINT
[32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is
between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority);
you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not
then mind?
[32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then
shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand
years of what you count.

[SECOND POINT]What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of
Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should
start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about
Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that
there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven
to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be
the case.


My reply re this second point.

On the broader context of the Divine Providence of course I agree with you
and greatly ADMIRE  your loving reference to the same Verse and Text.

But there is a subtler more nuanced reference here.

The Affair in the verse is AMR in the Arabic
032.005 
SHAKIR: He regulates the AFFAIR [al-AMR] from the heaven to the earth; then
shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of
what you count. 
*
32:5. Yudabbiru AL-AMRA mina alssama-i ila al-ardi thumma yaAAruju ilayhi
fee yawmin kana miqdaruhu alfa sanatin mimma taAAuddoona

Because of a considerable amount of background in my humble possession re
this AMR this AMR is read as the AMR of God. The Cause of God. The Faith of
God.

This AMR too in its Essence is One 
[sanctified above plurality]
054.050 
YUSUFALI: And Our Command is but a single (Act),- like the twinkling of an
eye. 
PICKTHAL: And Our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of
an eye. 
SHAKIR: And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye.

*These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the
Day Springs of His Revelation.  This Revelation is exalted above the veils
of plurality and the exigencies of number.  Thus He saith:  "Our Cause is
but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof
also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan
Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said:  "Muhammad is our first,
Muhammad is our last, Muhammad o

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Some descriptions I've seen of the concept of "Perfect Man" are rather
exalted. So even if Bahais might use the term a little more liberally
than the term Manifestation they seem to be rather similar. At least
from what I remember what you had actually said was that the term
"manifestation" was used a little bit more liberally in the early
Bahai writings, and that it was actually applied to Perfect Men. In
any case, the distinctions here seem to be getting really rareified
and technical. So if you are going to seriously object to what I wrote
below you should say what that extra-something you think is in the
definition of "manifestation" which isn't in the definition of
"perfect man".

Peace

Gilberto

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:30:15 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
> concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
> Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
> aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
> "Perfect Men" after the Muhammad."
> 
> Dear Gilberto,
> 
> I think you misunderstood what I said. As I recall you raised the question
> of the Perfect Man and I indicated the Writings used that a little more
> broadly than Manifestation as Baha'u'llah applied it to the Siyyid Kazim
> Rashti and Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i was well.
> 
> Baha'u'llah is more than a Perfect Man, and He is only 'not a prophet' in
> the sense that He is much *more* than that, not less.
> 
> warmest, Susan
> 
> 
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> 


-- 


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

 Dear Gilberto
After giving you my warmest I am just slowly going through your kind letters
and the part I think (!) by the grace of God I mar respectfully answer. (As
I was posting this I am in receipt of other letters from your productive pen
which I have to think about later tonight after praying to the One God
(Allah) Whose Rah.mat (Mercy) unites us all

You wrote in
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43037.html
***4. In both the Quran, the Bible, and in the writings of other
religions, God creates with the power of his words. God *says* "Let
there Be light" or God *says* "Be" and it is. (Kun fa ya kun). So if
God's words don't end one way to read that is to say that God doesn't
stop acting in the world, doesn't stop creating. And in fact, it is a
mainstream theological claim the physical universe doesn't have
any staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, God
is constantly recreating everything over and over again



Peace

Gilberto**

Again on this specific point you make a valid statement.
The only thing I would suggest that the greatest result of this ***Kun fa
yakuun*** This "Be and It is"_ this B uniting with E _ is actually the
creation of spiritual transformation in human reality, in the human soul.
Otherwise on the physical level humans too "create" things reflecting the
potency of the Divine Name the Fashioner...But spiritual transformation is
the Work of the Holy Spirit of God through His Revelations. In this Day the
Blessed Beauty...
***The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land;
nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it.  The corrosion
of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the
Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it?  Is it within
human power, O Hakim, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the
minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as
to transmute it into purest gold?  Perplexing and difficult as this may
appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly
power is ONE THAT WE HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED TO ACCOMPLISH.  The Force capable
of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself.  The
Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the
capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Page: 200)*
*** It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could
cause such spirit and behaviour, so utterly unlike their previous habits and
manners, to be made manifest in the world of being.  For their agitation was
turned into peace, their doubt into certitude, their timidity into courage.
Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of
an eye, transmuteth the souls of men! 
(Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 156-157)***

I am at one with you ...now I will look at your other points

My colleagues my fellow students my mentors all of us are looking at your
points with great love and warmth and mah.abbat and rah.m khazeh





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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In a message dated 1/1/2005 3:39:31 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:The point isn't that it is an argument against more manifestations (ormore precisely the non-finality of prophethood.). The point is that itis another way to understand the Quranic statements which suggest theword(s) of God never end. (i.e. God's creative word keeps beingspoken, the world is constantly recreated).
IT certainly is. I agree. Bahai's sometimes get set on a single interpretation when we are told over and over that there are many interpretations to scripture and all must be considered and amalgamated to begin to grasp their significance. Bahai's can sometimes be confusing to new comers to the faith. We can say "Yes", Muhammed was the alpha and the omega  the beginning and the end, the Seal and say at the same time that Revelation is progressive and another Manifestation Apostle of God will still come down the pike in God's own time because "Seal" means authorizer, warranotr, guarantor, authenticater, and validater at the same time. The meaning of God's utterance is not to be grasped at the first, "I see" that a believer utters. There will be lots of "Oh, that too, I guesses" to follow.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:11:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:04:00 PM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> And in fact, it is a
> mainstream theological claim the the physical universe doesn't have
> any staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, God
> is constantly recreating everything over and over again

Scott:
> This is expressed many times by Baha`u'llah. But I fail to see where this is
> an argument against the coming of the Manifestations since they are the
> purpose for the continuity of Creation.

Gilberto:
The point isn't that it is an argument against more manifestations (or
more precisely the non-finality of prophethood.). The point is that it
is another way to understand the Quranic statements which suggest the
word(s) of God never end. (i.e. God's creative word keeps being
spoken, the world is constantly recreated).

Peace

Gilberto




"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Fair enough. Then I'll just say that personally it comes off is really
insulting, especially when Bahais make not dissimilar claims about
what kinds of people God will or won't send in the future.

Peace

Gilberto



On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:50:04 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is
> valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between
> saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something."
> 
> Dear Gilberto,
> 
> The Jews never said God couldn't literally do something. They were basically
> saying the same thing the Muslims were saying, that He had committed Himself
> not to do so, and it was by virtue of their understanding of His promises
> that they had in effect 'tied His hands.'
> 
> warmest, Susan
> 
> 
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> 


-- 


"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

"According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
"Perfect Men" after the Muhammad."

Dear Gilberto,

I think you misunderstood what I said. As I recall you raised the question
of the Perfect Man and I indicated the Writings used that a little more
broadly than Manifestation as Baha'u'llah applied it to the Siyyid Kazim
Rashti and Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i was well.

Baha'u'llah is more than a Perfect Man, and He is only 'not a prophet' in
the sense that He is much *more* than that, not less.

warmest, Susan


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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:45:50 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [Yusuf Ali]
> > 034.029
> They say: "When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the
> truth?"
> > 034.030
> >  Say: "The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put
> > back for an hour nor put forward."

Gilberto:
> Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make
> me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to
> world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a
> portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi.
> Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of
> people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the
> Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an
> appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow
> down.

> Dear Gilberto 
> I read the above reply with affection and respect and warm regards for your  
> reply.

Thank You.

Khazeh:
> But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering 
> what  exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the 
> significance of an  Event [be it the significance of their won soul or life] 
> or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab 
> and  Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'anic 
> verses?

Gilberto:
No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an
event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it
means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of
the people who have read it through the centuries.  Because most of
the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a
position to see the Bab or Bahaullah.

Khazeh,
> I am wondering...
> 
> In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background.
> Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people?

Gilberto:
No not all his people. (assuming a "Bahai" interpretation)1 Because
not everyone will be alive to see it.

> Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all?
> 

Gilberto:
Even from a Bahai perspective (so I gather, but correct me if I'm
wrong) its only a judgement for the people who witnessed it.

Khazeh:
> You also wrote dear Gilberto that
> 
> I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say
> that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of
> centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when
> the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the
> dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he
> was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of
> the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about "I have perfected for you
> your religion" came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of
> Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam.

Khazeh:
> Dear Gilberto

> Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of
> Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH.
> I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period
> mentioned in the Súrih 32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year 
> 260 AH.

Dear Khazeh, so let's look at the passage with a little more context.

[32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is
between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority);
you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not
then mind?
[32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then
shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand
years of what you count.

What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of
Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should
start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about
Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that
there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven
to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be
the case.

Khazeh:
> I leave you with two weighty valuable Things [thaqalayn]
> **AlTirmidhí in his Sunan (v, 662, no. 3786) records the following
> tradition
> 
> Jábir ibn `Abd Allah said: "I saw the Messenger of God - upon whom be
> God's peace and benedictions - in the course of his H.ajj pilgrimage on the
> day of `Arafah. The Prophet (S) was seated on his camel, alQas.wá', and was
> delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O PEOPLE, I AM LEAVING AMONG YOU THAT
> WHICH IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY: THE BOOK OF GOD AND MY
> KINDRED, MY HOUSEHOLD."
> One does not need to be a Shi'ih to accept the vital significance of this
> Hadith which is also recorded in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah

Gilberto:
I agree. As a sunni I'm supposed to try to cultivate a love for Ahl
al-Bayt. Tha

RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In the following Letter dear Gilberto you write:

*
Gilberto:
But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who
is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone
who is illegitimately doing so?

Gilberto:
I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the
above and related comments is that even within the "constraints" of
orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive
enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although
most likely not all of them).

According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
"Perfect Men" after the Muhammad. So if this is what "Manifestation"
means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations
among the awliya (saints) of the community  of Muhammad.
*

This servant [khazeh] would not know exactly how to reply.

In one sense one should go beyond a discussion over Names. If you dear
Gilberto wish to look at the Writings of Baha'u'llah as that emanating from
a WALI then that is certainly a start.

The important point is to commence as no day that passes can be repeated. In
the Christian world someone like Hans Kung who accepts the prophethood of
Muhammad as that of an Old Testament Prophet has at least started
somewhere...
We  must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent.

Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...




005.054 
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! ...SOON WILL GOD PRODUCE A PEOPLE WHOM HE WILL
LOVE AS THEY WILL LOVE HIM... 

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! ... God will bring a people whom He loveth and
who love Him...
SHAKIR: O you who believe! ... then God will bring a people, He shall love
them and they shall love Him

Thus in the beginning of the Qur'anic Revelation It says that the Revelation
was to warn Mecca and Its Environs...Later we have people like your good
self being affected by that Revelation and loving it...

042.007 
YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: THAT
THOU MAYEST WARN THE MOTHER OF CITIES AND ALL AROUND HER...


PICKTHAL: And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou
mayest warn THE MOTHER-TOWN AND THOSE AROUND IT...
SHAKIR: And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn
the mother city and those around it...

006.092 
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings,
and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn
the mother of cities and all around her... 
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming
that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayest warn the Mother of
Villages and those around her. 
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which
is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her...

You also say below dear 
Gilberto:
3. The Quran could be endless in terms of its meanings. The other day
I was reading a quote attributed to Imam Ali where he said that if he
wanted to he could load up 70 camels with written commentary about
al-Fatihah (the first chapter of the Quran which consists of only 7
verses). And there are numerous similar statements made about the
meanings of passages of the Quran. If only 7 verses can have that much
meaning contained in them, it does not make sense to think that it's
interpretations have been exhausted and that the book is insufficient
for modern times and that we should move on to some other text.***

Of course on further delving the reason [one important reason] the Imam 'Ali
[PBUH] said that there was SO MUCH in the first Surah is that later He says
it has all to do with the Letter Ba. ie the Letter B. Which Letter He goes
on to say is Baha'u'llah. The Letter B is the first Letter of the First
Sura.

***As that Moon of the heavens of knowledge and understanding and that Point
at the centre of the wheel of Divine Guidance, the all-conquering Lion of
God, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, unto him be greetings and praise, has asserted:
"ALL THAT IS IN THE TORAH AND THE EVANGELS AND THE PSALMS IS IN THE QUR'AN;
AND ALL THAT IS IN THE QUR'AN IS IN THE FATIHA [THE FIRST SURA OF THE
QUR'AN]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE FATIHA IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH [THE OPENING
PHRASE OF THE FATIHA]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH IS IN THE BA [THE
FIRST LETTER OF BISMI'LLAH]***

Another stunning, and for Bahá'ís prophetic, occurrence of the word Bahá' in
a mystical text, is its use in the work The Sun of Mystic Meaning (Shams al-
ma'ání) of Muhyí al-Dín al- Búní (d. 1225 CE) w

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]




In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And in fact, it is amainstream theological claim the the physical universe doesn't haveany staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, Godis constantly recreating everything over and over again
This is expressed many times by Baha`u'llah. But I fail to see where this is an argument against the coming of the Manifestations since they are the purpose for the continuity of Creation.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

"I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is
valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between
saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something."


Dear Gilberto,

The Jews never said God couldn't literally do something. They were basically
saying the same thing the Muslims were saying, that He had committed Himself
not to do so, and it was by virtue of their understanding of His promises
that they had in effect 'tied His hands.'

warmest, Susan


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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Oops.

>>The Greater Occultation (al-ghaybat al-kubra) began after the death of the 
>>third of the four abvab ("babs") - the intercessors between the Twelfth Imam 
>>and Muslims.<<

The ***last***of the four abvab. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:06:41 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html
> 
> In the above missive
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html
> 
> my dear Gilberto writes:
>  In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the  
> Perfect Man or the
> Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize new
> Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been
> abrogated or not.

Dear Khazeh,
> The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] 
> of the Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes.
>

But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who
is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone
who is illegitimately doing so?

Gilberto:
I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the
above and related comments is that even within the "constraints" of
orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive
enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although
most likely not all of them).

According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
"Perfect Men" after the Muhammad. So if this is what "Manifestation"
means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations
among the awliya (saints) of the community  of Muhammad.

> But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this will
> be the case. Thus:
> 
> 010.049
> YUSUFALI: Say: "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as
> God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is
> reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance
> (it in anticipation)."

Gilberto:
But how does that suggest abrogating the laws?

> In relation to Shari'ah like everything else the Hand of God is unchained.
> 5:64
> "God's hand is tied up."
> God's hand is fettered
> The hand of God is tied up!"
> Sura 5 condemns any attitude which would say the Hand of God would be tied
> up/fettered/ or chained

Gilberto:
I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is
valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between
saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something.
It is totally consistent to say that God *can* send new manifestations
to abrogate all current laws and replace them with something new, but
then at the same time say that he hasn't or that he won't.

> Also this great reference is really worth thinking about
> 
> From the BOOK BURHAAN
> 
> Burhaan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an.
> 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955).
> 
> It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and
> passed away in 1107 A.H. [153 years before the Dawn of the 12th Imam as the
> Holy Personage of the Primal Point.
> 
> The Imam Ja'far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning
> of the Holy Qur'an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave]
> 
> Sura 18:109. Qul law kana albah.ru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida
> albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan
> 
> Sura 18:109
> 
> YUSUFALI: Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of
> my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my
> Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

> The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse:
> 
> The Infallible Imam replied:
> 
> Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an.
> 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955).
> 
> Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa
> laa yanqat.i'u abadan] In other words ***GOD HERE INFORMS THEE THAT THE WORD
> OF GOD HAS NO END, NO TERMINATION, AND IT SHALL NEVER CEASE AT ALL.***
> 
> This servant suggests this is a most precious find in such a wonderful Book
> from such a Holy Imam.
> 

Someone has pointed that passage out to me before. Here was my answer.

> Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa
> ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i u abadan] In other words ***God here informs
> thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall
> never cease at all.***

The other thing I wanted to add to this is that just as Bahais argue
that "seal of the prophets" means something different from "last
prophet" that "the word of God has no end" can also mean something
different from "prophets will keep coming over and over like the
Bahais say".

Some reasonable possibilities to consider would be:

1. "the word of god" could specifically refer to the Quran and so it
could mean that the Quran's validity and last forever and never be
abrogated by another.

2. At least for sunni t

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

Hi, Gilberto,

At 10:46 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote:
>>It seems bizzare to say the dispensation of Muhammad didn't start until the 
>>disappearance of the last imam.<<

It was the Lesser Occultation (al-ghaybat al-sughra), not the Dispensation of 
Muhammad, which is believed to have started after the death ("disappearance" to 
most Twelvers Shi'ih) of the Twelfth Imam. The Greater Occultation (al-ghaybat 
al-kubra) began after the death of the third of the four abvab ("babs") - the 
intercessors between the Twelfth Imam and Muslims.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 

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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]









In

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43030.html

My brother Gilberto writes:

**"Dear Khazeh, when I read passages
like the above, they generally make

me think of my individual death. If they referred
mainly to

world-historical eschatological events then
it is only meaningful to a

portion of people. Plenty of people will
miss the coming of the Mahdi.

Plenty of people will miss the second
coming of Jesus. Plenty of

people will miss the Beast, and the sun
rising in the west, and the

Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die.
And that's certainly an

appointment that everyone will make, and no
one will speed up or slow

down."**

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43030.html

 

My dear brother Gilberto
writes:

1]Plenty of people will miss the coming of
the Mahdi.

2]Plenty of people will miss the second
coming of Jesus. 

3]Plenty of people will miss the Beast,4]
and the sun rising in the west, and the 5]

Dajjal.

 

Again with reverence, affection, and
courtesy this servant would submit that

1] The Mahdi is a reference a beautiful
reference to the Advent of the Bab.

2] The Second Coming of Jesus in [Sunni
Parlance] again refers to the Advent of Baha’u’llah.

3] the Beast [the Daabbah of Islamic
H.adith ] refers amongst other things to the Rampant rise of materialism and
secularism

4] The Sun rising from Its West [i.e Its
MAGHRIB the Place where It set aforetime] refers to the Coming of the Bab from
the Family of the Prophet from the descendents of the Imam H.usayn where that
same Sun of Prophethood and Imamate which set previously in the year 260 AH
with the passing away of the Imam H.asan ‘al-‘Askari.

5] and as for the Dajjaal [the Deceiver]
the Prophet also said ‘ulamaa us suu’ Dajaajilatul qawm’ the
wicked divines are the dajjaals of My people.

 

Each of the above assertions is validated
by enquiry, pure hearted, open minded enquiry and time. This servant would only
beg you to pursue these assertions by reading and starting by reading the Book
of Certitude and the Jawaahirul Asraar [the Gem of Mysteries].

 

Thou canst
indeed hear … the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: "The sun hath not
risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven.
Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjál[17] hath not
appeared; Sufyání[18] hath not
arisen; nor hath the Temple
been witnessed in the sun." I heard, with Mine own
ears one of their divines proclaim: "Should all these signs come to pass
and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even
our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án,
we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse
forever to acknowledge Him", and other statements such as these deniers
make. And all this, when the Day of
Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all
the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance
hath







[page 20]

been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent
down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and
the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown,
and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought to
nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to
this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! …

      Veiled as they remain within their own selves, the
generality of the people have failed to perceive the sweet accents of holiness,
inhale the fragrance of mercy, or seek guidance, as bidden by God, from those
who are the custodians of the Scriptures. He proclaimeth, and his word, verily,
is the truth: "Ask ye, therefore, of them that have the custody of the
Scriptures, if ye know it not."[19] Nay rather,
they have turned aside from them and followed instead the Sámirí[20] of their own
idle fancies…

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/gems.html#fnB16

 

 

 

Then I have found Dr Chris Buck’s
book very helpful.

http://bahai-library.com/books/symbol.secret/

 

SYMBOL AND SECRET:
QUR'AN COMMENTARY IN BAHÁ'U'LLÁH'S KITÁB-I
ÍQÁN

By 
CHRISTOPHER
BUCK

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




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RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]

[Yusuf Ali]
> 034.029
They say: "When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the
truth?"
> 034.030
>  Say: "The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put
> back for an hour nor put forward."

Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make
me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to
world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a
portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi.
Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of
people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the
Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an
appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow
down.

Dear Gilberto

I read the above reply with affection and respect and warm regards for your
reply.
But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering what
exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the significance of an
Event [be it the significance of their won soul or life] or the Great
Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab and
Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'anic verses?
I am wondering...

In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background.
Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people?
Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all?

You also wrote dear Gilberto that

I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say
that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of
centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when
the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the
dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he
was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of
the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about "I have perfected for you
your religion" came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of
Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto

Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of
Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH.
I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period
mentioned in the Súrih 32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year
260 AH to take into account of all the elaboration exposition and
elucidation that the Imams offered the Community despite some very
horrendous persecutions and sufferings They underwent.
All the denominations of Islam [the proverbial 72 firqah's] all of these
branches agree on one hadith that the Prophet said

I leave you with two weighty valuable Things [thaqalayn]
**AlTirmidhí in his Sunan (v, 662, no. 3786) records the following
tradition

Jábir ibn `Abd Allah said: "I saw the Messenger of God - upon whom be
God's peace and benedictions - in the course of his H.ajj pilgrimage on the
day of `Arafah. The Prophet (S) was seated on his camel, alQas.wá', and was
delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O PEOPLE, I AM LEAVING AMONG YOU THAT
WHICH IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY: THE BOOK OF GOD AND MY
KINDRED, MY HOUSEHOLD."
One does not need to be a Shi'ih to accept the vital significance of this
Hadith which is also recorded in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah
** Inasmuch as Muhammad hath confined His testimonies to His Book and to His
Family, and whereas the latter hath passed away, there remaineth His Book
only as His one testimony amongst the people.
(Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 202)**
In the following missive
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html

my dear Gilberto writes:
 In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the
Perfect Man or the Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize
new Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been
abrogated or not.

The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of the
Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes.

But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this will
be the case. Thus:

010.049
YUSUFALI: Say: "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as
God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is
reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance
(it in anticipation)." 
PICKTHAL: Say: I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which
God willeth. FOR EVERY NATION THERE IS AN APPOINTED TIME. When their time
cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it). 
SHAKIR: Say: I do not control for myself any harm, or any benefit except
what God pleases; every nation has a term; when their term comes, they shall
not then remain behind for an hour, nor can they go before (their time).

In relation to Shari'ah like everythin

Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]