Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto: > Not exactly. I'm was saying **Jesus** didn't change the laws. But then > Pauline Christianity after him declared most or all of the rules of > the Torah abrogated. I think there is a fairly large disconnect > between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. > Patti: I largely agree with you on this. > Patti: > My interest in the Templars stems (other than a > > supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in > > The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying > > the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time & place and moved > > to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot > > on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed > > a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. > > Gilberto: > Did Bahaullah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. > Carmel when he chose to put his tent there? > Patti: I don't know the answer to that one; however, in that day it may have been one of the few places around Akka someone could pitch a tent (i.e. not privately claimed or in cultivation)? Baha'u'llah was confined in His exile to the vicinity around Akka. Maybe someone else could shed more light on this. > > > Gilberto: > > > The disciples of Jesus were a special group with > > > a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, > > > and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can > > > receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus > > > wasn't abolishing the laws in the Torah about divorce, he was giving > > > more specific instructions to his disciples. > > > Patti: > > That's an interesting way of looking at it. I've never made a distinction > > between disciples--to me a believer is a disciple. > > Gilberto: > Well, think about it. There were 12 disciples at first, but there were > others who believed without being disciples (the various Marys for > instance, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimethea, etc.) > > Gilberto: > I think if you look at the instructions Jesus gives to his disciples > in the New Testament it would be difficult to impossible to base an > entire country on those principles: Patti: I like your comparison of Christ's disciples and Sufi mystics, and certainly you have found some material to distinguish some disciples from some believers. I'm still not certain that I would make an overall distinction between disciple & believer. I would distinguish between the 12 Apostles and other believers. It can perhaps be argued that when Christ speaks of only some being about to understand the parables that it was between "disciples" and other believers; however, I think I would take it to be between believers and non-believers. I think that perhaps Christ is more clear about who is NOT a believer (and these seem to me to be a fairly high bar in accordance with the stringent requirments you speak about for specific "disciples"): "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (King James Bible, Matthew 7:20-23 ) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." (King James Bible, Matthew 25:41-45 ) Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 02:35 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not sure if that is a good example. Most of the "Christian" bookstores >>have a very narrow focus, with a strong emphasis on materials which are used >>in churches (sunday school curricula, sheet music, that kind of stuff) so it >>isn't supersurprising that there is a strong avoidance of contraversey.<< It depends on the Christian bookstore. I think you may be talking about church supply stores. However, most major metropolitan areas have at least one Christian book superstore. One of the largest in the Kansas City area is one just four blocks from my home. (I stop by there on a regular basis.) >>But you can still read Spong, or Matthew Fox, or more intellectual works from >>mainstream bookstores or New Age bookstores.<< "Christian" bookstores are a huge retail market, and there are a lot of people who purchase all of their books from them. They would not likely carry books by John Shelby Spong or Matthew Fox. I know that the store near me doesn't sell books by these authors. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilbert wrote: > What is interesting though is that (at least my understanding is that) > Quakers are opposed to most formal rituals so they specifically don't > baptize with water and don't use bread and wine in the eucharist. And > instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for > someone to be moved by the inner light. I felt comfortable > participating (except that nobody felt moved to speak) because for me > it was just sitting around a candle waiting till you had something you > felt you wanted share. But I think from a Quaker perspective, that was > their Eucharist. Interesting comment. As a Quaker for many years before becoming a Baha'i, I've often observed that superficially the Baha'is and the Quakers resemble each other in a number of ways. By the way, you are referring to the unprogrammed or more traditional Quakers. I always treasured the silent meetings, but over the years I learned that people observe this in many different ways. For instance, I never felt that silent worship was the same thing as meditation. I feel that silent worship is hard work. It does not involve emptying the mind or concentrating on a single point or mantra, but requires constant discipline to focus the mind on adoration and prayer, as well as periods of meditation and introspection. One is supposed to wait until one is genuinely moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, and yet there were many times when we heard flippant or superficial comments. Whereas the Baha'is have no clergy, all Quakers are considered ministers. Everything in a Quaker meeting is done by committee, and unanimity is valued over unity. What this means in practical terms is that too often, nothing gets accomplished. I believe this is all too often a shortcoming of Baha'i communities, as well. David Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:15:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ron, > Personally, I am not sure. I think that, even without review, most of the > published materials would be pretty lame anyway. For instance, if you are a > "Christian" writer, and you want your books to be promoted through the usual > channels and sold in "Christian" bookstores, you had better not make too many > controversial statements. I'm not sure if that is a good example. Most of the "Christian" bookstores have a very narrow focus, with a strong emphasis on materials which are used in churches (sunday school curricula, sheet music, that kind of stuff) so it isn't supersurprising that there is a strong avoidance of contraversey. But you can still read Spong, or Matthew Fox, or more intellectual works from mainstream bookstores or New Age bookstores. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Ron, At 01:12 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books >>written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why >>invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of >>day because of review?<< I know of at least a few instances where that happened. >>On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less >>creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same >>kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, >>which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a >>lot more seekers to the faith.<< Personally, I am not sure. I think that, even without review, most of the published materials would be pretty lame anyway. For instance, if you are a "Christian" writer, and you want your books to be promoted through the usual channels and sold in "Christian" bookstores, you had better not make too many controversial statements. >>Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of >>communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have >>seen.<< Eventually, I don't think there will be a difference between the Internet and a library. Most American colleges and universities already have online data bases (available only to faculty and students). They contain digitized journals, abstracts, and entire books. Would the Baha'i materials have been covered by review when those materials were in hard copy form, but not covered by review after they are placed on the Internet? There are also a growing number of online refereed journals. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 01:24 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>And instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for >>someone to be moved by the inner light.<< That is true with the unprogrammed meetings. However, the programmed meetings operate similarly to what one expect in any church (a paid minister, sermons, etc.). In fact, Evangelical Friends International supports the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Some Friends churches set aside some time for silence. Others have entirely discarded the practice. In the Midwest, where I am, most Quakers go to programmed meetings. However, there are two unprogrammed meetings (one Wilburite and the other Hicksite) here in the Kansas City area. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:15:21 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:06:31 AM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais > participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation > through the "inner light"? > We are supposed to "consort with the followers of all faiths in the greatest > amity. . . " I have no compunction in attending services in another faith, I > decline the part of the service where "members only" are involved - like the > Eucharist. That's a personal limitation for me. As to the inner light, well > we are drawn to the light and the only light we can experience personally is > that inner light, we seek the light elsewhere secondarily. What is interesting though is that (at least my understanding is that) Quakers are opposed to most formal rituals so they specifically don't baptize with water and don't use bread and wine in the eucharist. And instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for someone to be moved by the inner light. I felt comfortable participating (except that nobody felt moved to speak) because for me it was just sitting around a candle waiting till you had something you felt you wanted share. But I think from a Quaker perspective, that was their Eucharist. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Mark wrote: """If it were up to me, I would end it today. However, as time goes on, review may become increasingly irrelevant anyway. For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? """ Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of day because of review? There are also a lot less magazine articles, newspaper articles, and other communication pieces written and communication activities undertaken than there would be without review. The consequence is that the Faith gets a lot less publicity, and therefore gets noticed a lot less. On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a lot more seekers to the faith. Without review, for all we know, there might have been Baha'i best-sellers; books about the Baha'i Faith, in whole or in part, that sold so many copies than they were atop the New York Times best sellers charts. We'll never know what we have lost. Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have seen. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 10:05 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style >>service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker.<< I subscribe to four Quaker-oriented email lists. There is currently an online culture war being waged between Christ-focused Quakers and liberal/universal Quakers. On those lists, I repeatedly read comments from Quakers complaining about the elevation of tradition over mysticism in Quaker meetings. The following essay is fairly typical: http://www.pendlehill.org/frames%20lectures/caldwell.html The appeal of Quakerism, especially its focus on the inner Light, to many people is understandable. However, most self-defined Christians are not joining Quaker churches and meetings (Friends United Meeting, Evangelical Friends International, etc.), and the more liberal Quaker meetings, such as those associated (in the U.S.) with the Friends General Conference, are experiencing similar declines in membership to liberal churches. >>There was one more conventional Quraker one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist >>background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder >>to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that >>revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of "authorized >>interpreters".<< Not all Quakers believe in the concept of divine revelation. Many are both anti-supernatural physicalists and secularists. Some are also involved with the Ethical Culture Society: http://www.aeu.org/ There are also many Quakers who define themselves as Jews, Buddhists, and neo-pagans. >>Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and >>trying to listen to revelation through the "inner light"?<< Only if they officially joined the one of the Religious Societies of Friends. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:23:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? The US has already adapted to the realities of the net. Web pages do not need to go through review. I think the same pressures will eventually make the whole process untenable. It already creates more problems than it solves as best I can tell. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Ron, At 09:40 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>Statements by our Central Figures were often made to address particular >>circumstances, and yet we are inappropriately institutionalizing and >>universalizing them into supposedly an inerrant bedrock of general rules that >>are then applied literally under inappropriate circumstances, freezing the >>Bahai community into rigid positions that are out of touch with current and >>future reality.<< IMO, that is one of the reasons for the continuity of the Guardianship. Since it ended, the House of Justice is faced with the difficulty of distinguishing between at least three factors: 1. authoritative interpretations of the text 2. authoritative interpretations of the text related to a specific situation 3. policy statements (which may overlap with "2") >>A great example of this, in my opinion, is the policy of Review. Another >>example is the electoral system, the minute and specific details of which are >>prematurely fossilized in a form appropriate to a smaller community of 50 >>years ago but wildly inappropriate to today and even more so in regards to >>the future.<< If it were up to me, I would end it today. However, as time goes on, review may become increasingly irrelevant anyway. For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:06:31 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahaisparticipating in such services and trying to listen to revelationthrough the "inner light"? We are supposed to "consort with the followers of all faiths in the greatest amity. . . " I have no compunction in attending services in another faith, I decline the part of the service where "members only" are involved - like the Eucharist. That's a personal limitation for me. As to the inner light, well we are drawn to the light and the only light we can experience personally is that inner light, we seek the light elsewhere secondarily. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 06:40 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and >>a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well.<< Sure, Paul may have been a great soul. However, to conclude that his words are verbally inerrant and intended to guide *all* churches the world over until Christ returns is a bit of a non-sequitur. ;-) If Christians wanted to rely upon Paul's wisdom, I think it would have been more sensible for them to model their contextualizations of the Gospel of Christ on those contained in Paul's epistles, i.e., to regard him as an exemplar. >>I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't >>necessarily imply infallibility.<< IMO, even infallibility doesn't imply infallibility. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:40:04 -0800, Ronald Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Gilberto and Mark, Hello Ronald. > Gilberto wrote: > In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a > >saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his > >epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain > >amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. > Ron replies: > In my opinion, "infallibility", when interpreted and understood in the > English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, > always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there > are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having > authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their > authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Yeah, that seems like a reasonable statement. > Mark wrote: > "Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles > traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of > his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into > supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were > forever frozen in the past. > >>"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to > >> believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or > >> Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later > >> Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." > >> http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Yeah, I started to look around on that website and some of the links. The idea of inner light is an interesting one. I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker. There was one more conventional Quraker, one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of "authorized interpreters". Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation through the "inner light"? Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hello Gilberto and Mark, Gilberto wrote: In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a >saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his >epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain >amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Ron replies: In my opinion, "infallibility", when interpreted and understood in the English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Mark wrote: "Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. >>"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers >> who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner >> Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians >> could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." >> http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Ron replies: Yes, I think you make a very important point here, and one that needs to be heard by Baha'is today, in order to avoid making similar mistakes to the ones the early Christians made. Statements by our Central Figures were often made to address particular circumstances, and yet we are inappropriately institutionalizing and universalizing them into supposedly an inerrant bedrock of general rules that are then applied literally under inappropriate circumstances, freezing the Bahai community into rigid positions that are out of touch with current and future reality. A great example of this, in my opinion, is the policy of Review. Another example is the electoral system, the minute and specific details of which are prematurely fossilized in a form appropriate to a smaller community of 50 years ago but wildly inappropriate to today and even more so in regards to the future. Peace, Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Yeah, actually that seems right on target. I'm honestly a little surprised though. In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:42:10 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 08:32 AM 12/16/2004, you wrote: > >>I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and > >>Christian doctrines.<< > > I think that is largely because, as I wrote: > >"Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles > traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of > his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and univeralized into a > supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were > forever frozen in the past. >"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers > who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, > without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have > been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." > http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ > > Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net > "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" > -- Abbie Hoffman > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:55:12 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Gilberto, > As a former member of a protestant Christian church, The > Disciples of Christ, I found your comment a bit perplexing. > Like Patti, I've always felt appellation "disciple" referred > to anyone who believed in and followed the teachings of > Christ (in this instance). Actually that is an interesting coincidence. I grew up in a Disciples of Christ Church too. I understand that this is how many Christians read the Bible, i.e. disciple = believer. And maybe I'm overstating this. But after gaining a certain amount of distance from Christianity I was just struck by the way in which Jesus' relation with his disciples was similar to a sufi shaykh's relationship with his disciples. And then when I would reread the Gospels certain passages would stand out as being consistent with this slightly different reading. For example, the way that Jesus and his disciples remained a seperate group from John the Baptist and his disciples. (Why didn't John just tell all his followers to become disciples of Jesus?) Or consider Matthew 13 [10] Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" [11] And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. So some parts of Jesus' message were for the crowds. But some were for the inner core of disciples. Or again Mathew 19, after mentioning his teaching on divorce: [10] The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." [11] But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." So again some of the things which Jesus taught aren't meant to be for everyone but just for "he who is able to receive this" "only those to whom it is given". Or again, even the fact that we talk about the 12 disciples, and later the 11, and then the 12 again, strongly suggests that a "disciple" isn't the same as the general believer since Jesus had more than 12 people who accepted his teachings and followed him, for example the famous women who were certainly believers but not disciples. > If it were intended that certain laws were only binding on the > original 12 disciples what would be the point of Christ's > teachings? I believe His admonitions were for all to follow > and spread those teachings by word and deed. Well here is another example which should be pretty clear. In Matthew 10 [5] These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. [9] Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, [10] no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. So the disciples here are basically taking a kind of vow to poverty, they made a special commitment to be wandering preaches without a fixed home. So would you agree that the disciples had extra instructions which weren't binding on everyone. Or are you saying that all Christians are supposed to make this kind of vow of poverty? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Dear Gilberto, As a former member of a protestant Christian church, The Disciples of Christ, I found your comment a bit perplexing. Like Patti, I've always felt appellation "disciple" referred to anyone who believed in and followed the teachings of Christ (in this instance). John: Chapter 8 is one reference I believe addresses the question of "discipleship" and "obedience" of all "believers". 25: Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26: I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the WORLD those things which I have heard of him. 27: They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29: And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30: As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my DISCIPLES indeed; 32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Also, in Matthew Chapter 28 we find this account: 16: Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17: And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. If it were intended that certain laws were only binding on the original 12 disciples what would be the point of Christ's teachings? I believe His admonitions were for all to follow and spread those teachings by word and deed. It is through practice that we gain understanding and advance the spirituality of humankind acknowledging our common bond. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
"This is one of Bahá'u'lláh's most explicit statements of one of the most interesting and controversial aspects of his doctrine: his assertion that all of the statements that occur in the scriptures relating to God (including references to His names and attributes, and statements about His actions and commands) refer in reality to the Manifestation of God, since no statement can be made about the Essence of God, which is unknowable." [Momen] "Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity [tawhid]. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle. Some, deluded by their idle fancies, have conceived all created things as associates and partners of God, and imagined themselves to be the exponents of His unity. By Him Who is the one true God! Such men have been, and will continue to remain, the victims of blind imitation, and are to be numbered with them that have restricted and limited the conception of God. He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers. The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief." (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, Section LXXXIV, p. 167) "Beware, O believers in the Unity of God [tawhid], lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers." (Lawh-i-Tawhid, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, XXIV, p. 59) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 08:32 AM 12/16/2004, you wrote: >>I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and >>Christian doctrines.<< I think that is largely because, as I wrote: "Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and univeralized into a supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. "The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:36:39 -0800, Patti Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Gilberto: > > I think Jesus substantially continued to endorse the laws of the Torah > > and taught his followers to continue to follow them. He just deepened > > their understanding of its principles. So in declaring that the laws > > were mostly abrogated, Christianity didn't "progress" it actually lost > > out and cut itself off from certain spiritual riches which were part > > of Judaism and the practice of Jesus and the first disciples. Islam, > > by having a shariah which is so similar to this way of life shares in > > these spiritual riches which Christianity had cut itself off from. > > > > Patti: > I thought you were the one arguing that Christianity didn't change the laws. > Now you say that Christianity declared that the laws of the Torah "were > mostly abrogated". Not exactly. I'm was saying **Jesus** didn't change the laws. But then Pauline Christianity after him declared most or all of the rules of the Torah abrogated. I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. Patti: > I think you and I were pretty close to being essentially > on the same page here, and perhaps I got the discussion a bit off track when > I used the term "abrogated" when speaking of the Sabbath. I do believe that > Christ actually fulfilled the law of the Torah (although more in a spiritual > sense than a literal sense), although he de-emphasized (I actually think > it's > pushing it a bit too far to say abrogated) some of the social laws. If you > are aware of the different perspectives in "The Seven Valleys", I would say > that the difference between thinking that the laws are different is a matter > of "names", while by the time one attains the 7th Valley (or 7th heaven) the > understanding is that they (in this case the laws) are all essentially the > same on that spiritual level and lead in toward the same outcome.. Gilberto: I'll have to look more into that. Patti: My interest in the Templars stems (other than a > supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in > The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying > the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time & place and moved > to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot > on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed > a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. Gilberto: Did Bahaullah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. Carmel when he chose to put his tent there? Patti: > I simply do not see how you come up with the shariah having spiritual > riches that Christianity cut itself off from in its core teachings. Gilberto: Because the rituals and practices of Islam and Judaism transform the most mundane moments of everyday life into sacred events and have the capacity to make a person very conscious of God's presence. Christianity does this to a smaller degree. > > Gilberto: > > He doesn't change the law of the Sabbath. The incident in question was > > relatively unique. > > > Patti: > I'm not certain that it was that unique. Here are a few examples: > > Matthew 12:1 "At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the corn; > and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and > to eat." Right. That incident is probably the same one we were discussing before, just in a different gospel. > Mark 3:2-4 "And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the Sabbath > day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the > withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good > on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held > their peace." Gilberto: Again Jesus isn't abolishing the Sabbath. He isn't saying the Sabbath is like any other day. He's not declaring that it is lawful to do other things on the sabbath. He's clarifying a very specific and particular exception to the rules. I only appreciated this after being Muslim for a while. But the scholars who interpret Islamic laws or Jewish laws aren't as stupidly legalistic as some seem to think. For example, in Islam it is well known that pork is prohibted. But what if you are stuck on a deserted island and you are starving to death and the only thing to eat available is pork. What do you do? Well, this is what the Quran says: [16.115] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. So Islamic law is certainly capable of recognizing that there are extreme situations where the normal rules don't apply. But it is still the case that in general pork is prohibited. I think one can understand the above example in the New Testa
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
> Gilberto: > I think Jesus substantially continued to endorse the laws of the Torah > and taught his followers to continue to follow them. He just deepened > their understanding of its principles. So in declaring that the laws > were mostly abrogated, Christianity didn't "progress" it actually lost > out and cut itself off from certain spiritual riches which were part > of Judaism and the practice of Jesus and the first disciples. Islam, > by having a shariah which is so similar to this way of life shares in > these spiritual riches which Christianity had cut itself off from. > Patti: I thought you were the one arguing that Christianity didn't change the laws. Now you say that Christianity declared that the laws of the Torah "were mostly abrogated". I think you and I were pretty close to being essentially on the same page here, and perhaps I got the discussion a bit off track when I used the term "abrogated" when speaking of the Sabbath. I do believe that Christ actually fulfilled the law of the Torah (although more in a spiritual sense than a literal sense), although he de-emphasized (I actually think it's pushing it a bit too far to say abrogated) some of the social laws. If you are aware of the different perspectives in "The Seven Valleys", I would say that the difference between thinking that the laws are different is a matter of "names", while by the time one attains the 7th Valley (or 7th heaven) the understanding is that they (in this case the laws) are all essentially the same on that spiritual level and lead in toward the same outcome.. I think that the stricter, literal application of laws in the Torah & Shariah were due to the capacity of the people & societies to which Moses & Mohammad came at the time. I think that rigid, rote application of the "Law" was necessary for those societies, but that the society to which Christ came (or at least the ones who became believers) had the capacity for greater understanding. (Although, certainly by the time of its Golden Age Islam had a much greater capacity for deep understanding--the book I read recently on the Templars suggested that it was the interaction of the Templars with, and knowledge they gained from, Islamic scholars that later fueled the Western Renaissance and advancement of science.) My interest in the Templars stems (other than a supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time & place and moved to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. I find it fascinating that they came so close to finding Him through study of what one might call "occult" or hidden teachings, just as the Zoroastrian magi are recorded to have actually found Christ in His time. I simply do not see how you come up with the shariah having spiritual riches that Christianity cut itself off from in its core teachings. I agree with you when you say that Christ deepened the understating of the laws of the Torah. I also agree that in the "Golden Age" of Islam it certainly had greater spiritual riches than Christianity. I think that this was not due to lesser spiritual riches of Christianity's teachings, but rather to the fact that it was further removed from its founder and diluted by the selfish accretions of the ignorant, greedy, and power hungry over time (and of course I see the same relationship between the Baha'i Faith & its remove from the accretions added over time to Islam). > Gilberto: > He doesn't change the law of the Sabbath. The incident in question was > relatively unique. > Patti: I'm not certain that it was that unique. Here are a few examples: Matthew 12:1 "At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat." Mark 3:2-4 "And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the Sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace." John 5:9-10 "And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the Sabbath. The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the Sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk." Gilberto: > a disciple necessary. The disciples of Jesus were a special group with > a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, > and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can > receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus > wasn't abolishin
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:30:15 -0800, Patti Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: > > I think personally I think my understanding of the relation between > > Jesus and Judaism played some part in terms of the train of thought > > which led to Islam, and I see that it is a bit different with how > > Bahais tend to see the relation between Jesus and Judaism. Patti: > I'm not exactly certain I'm following you here. Could you explain in more > detail the difference you see? Gilberto: I think Jesus substantially continued to endorse the laws of the Torah and taught his followers to continue to follow them. He just deepened their understanding of its principles. So in declaring that the laws were mostly abrogated, Christianity didn't "progress" it actually lost out and cut itself off from certain spiritual riches which were part of Judaism and the practice of Jesus and the first disciples. Islam, by having a shariah which is so similar to this way of life shares in these spiritual riches which Christianity had cut itself off from. > > Gilberto: > > Right. I would tend to read that in a more strightforward way. Jesus > > was an observant Jew (Torah observer) and taught his disciples to do > > the same. He taught his followers to keep the law. But perhaps his > > understanding of the law may have been different from that of those > > people around him. > > Patti: > > > It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back > > > then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the > Sabbath; > > Gilberto: > > He doesn't say the little rules are abolished, but just that more > > important matters should take precedence. Keep things in perspective. Patti: > I guess this depends on your and my definitions of "abolish" and > "abrogate". You may be right that He doesn't officially say, at least it's > not recorded in the gospels, that specific laws are abolished; however, > effectively He changes laws such as the sabbath & divorce. Gilberto: He doesn't change the law of the sabbath. The incident in question was relatively unique. And there were certain groups of Christians afterwards who continue to keep the Sabbath. Gilberto: One could say something similar about what is said regarding divorce. Jesus can in some ways be thought of as a Jewish Sufi. Jesus followers were Jews and would have followed the Torah and continued to teach its validity. But then on top of just being Jews, they made an extra commitment to follow Jesus and follow his instructions on other matters, to live up to a higher standard. And that higher standard included only getting divorced under certain strict conditions. But this rule wasn't meant to be binding, it was just for those who *chose* to follow Jesus as a disciple. Look at Matthew 19, for instance: [9] And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." [10] The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." [11] But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For me personally, the Gospels made more sense when I realized that the disciples were kind of like sufis. Not everybody is supposed to be a disciple necessary. The disciples of Jesus were a special group with a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus wasn't abolishing the laws in the Torah about divorce, he was giving more specific instructions to his disciples. Patti: > Paul goes even > further and interprets His teachings as abolishing the law of circumcision. Yeah, I'm not a fan of Paul. Incidentally, I asked in a different context but never got an answer. Do the Bahai teachings actually talk about circumcision? Because it is obviously part of Judaism, and according to the Bible Jesus was circumcized. But circumcision is also practiced in Islam. So it is weird to think the circumcision would be a part of the religions before and after Christianity, but that inbetween it would be abolished. > However, these changes are clearly seen as fulfillment of the overall > spiritual "Law". Instead of the 10 commandments, Christ teaches that: "The > first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one > Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all > thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the > first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy > neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." Gilberto: Sure. I think that is a very beautiful observation. But something which I would not is that Jesus says "There is none other commandment greater than these" but he did NOT say "There is none other commandment than these" So Jesus wasn't abolis
re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
... you count the period of the Christian Dispensation as having lasted for 1844 years. As in the Bahá'í teachings Muhammad is considered as an independent prophet of God, you have to consider His Dispensation as having begun in 622 A.D. The Christian Dispensation must, therefore, end in 622 A.D. and from that date till 1844 is the era of Muhammad. 1260 is the calculation based on the lunar system. In other words, it is the Hegira year or A.H. You should either specify this fact, or base your calculation on the solar year, in which case it will be less than 1260, as there is a difference of one year in every 33 years. ... you should point out that, only so far as it is recorded in the Gospel, Jesus gave two material ordinances only. Our knowledge of Jesus' life and teachings is rather fragmentary and so it would be more correct if you specify that these ordinances are only those recorded in the Gospel, and they may not be the only ones. There may be other teachings and ordinances too, of which no record is left. ...Muhammadanism is not only the last of the world religions, but a fuller Revelation than any one preceding it. The Qur'án is not only more authoritative than any previous religious gospel, but it contains also much more; ordinances, teachings and precepts, which taken together constitute a fuller Revelation of God's purpose and law to mankind than Christianity, Judaism or any other previous Dispensation. This view is in complete accord with the Bahá'í philosophy of progressive revelation, and should be thoroughly accepted and taught by every loyal ... Bahá'í. (Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 432) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto: > I think personally I think my understanding of the relation between > Jesus and Judaism played some part in terms of the train of thought > which led to Islam, and I see that it is a bit different with how > Bahais tend to see the relation between Jesus and Judaism. > Hello again Gilberto, I'm not exactly certain I'm following you here. Could you explain in more detail the difference you see? > Gilberto: > Right. I would tend to read that in a more strightforward way. Jesus > was an observant Jew (Torah observer) and taught his disciples to do > the same. He taught his followers to keep the law. But perhaps his > understanding of the law may have been different from that of those > people around him. > Generally, Baha'is make a distinction between social laws that can be changed from Manifestation to Manifestation depending upon the imperatives of the time (such as ones pertaining to food & marriage) & spiritual laws that do not change (such as love, thruthfulness, etc.). In other words some laws are appropriately applied in a certain place and time, while others are universal. Certainly, Jesus had a different understanding of the law than most of those around him. It appears to me that He saw the law in the context of what He was trying to achieve, and imparted that to His followers, rather than simply blind obedience to essentially trivial (at least at that time) social laws. > Patti: > > It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back > > then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the Sabbath; > > Gilberto: > He doesn't say the little rules are abolished, but just that more > important matters should take precedence. Keep things in perspective. I guess this depends on your and my definitions of "abolish" and "abrogate". You may be right that He doesn't officially say, at least it's not recorded in the gospels, that specific laws are abolished; however, effectively He changes laws such as the sabbath & divorce. Paul goes even further and interprets His teachings as abolishing the law of circumcision. However, these changes are clearly seen as fulfillment of the overall spiritual "Law". Instead of the 10 commandments, Christ teaches that: "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." These changes are a matter of perspective, on one level it can clearly be seen as no significant change, but on other levels there are drastic changes. Have you had a chance to read Baha'u'llah's "Seven Valleys"? It addresses the matter of differing perspectives in terms addressed to a Sufi mystic. Finally, from reading through some of your other posts, it appears to me that you believe the Qur'an has all the answers needed for all time? Am I correct in my understanding? Is it that you are not particularly concerned about the prophecies in the Qur'an of the times & events yet to come, such as Sura 56--"The Event"--when men are separated to the right & left hand of God (as also prophesied in the Bible), or is it that you belive in a literal fulfillment & physical end of the world? Have you had a chance to read The Kitab-i-Iqan (The Book of Certitude)? Baha'u'llah explains many of the prophecies in this book (and Abdu'l-Baha explains others in "Some Answered Questions"). Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:21:35 -0800, Patti Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi Gilberto, > > Please allow me to jump in here. I think it might be useful to look at how > Christ "fulfilled" the law of Moses: Hello Patti, I think personally I think my understanding of the relation between Jesus and Judaism played some part in terms of the train of thought which led to Islam, and I see that it is a bit different with how Bahais tend to see the relation between Jesus and Judaism. > > "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come > to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth > pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be > fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18 Gilberto: Right. I would tend to read that in a more strightforward way. Jesus was an observant Jew (Torah observer) and taught his disciples to do the same. He taught his followers to keep the law. But perhaps his understanding of the law may have been different from that of those people around him. Patti: > It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back > then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the Sabbath; Gilberto: I don't think he necessarily abrogated it. For example, in one passage in the new testament where this comes up: Mark 2 [23] One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. [24] And the Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" So first note that its the Pharisees who are *accusing* Jesus of breaking the Sabbath. And the Pharisees are not necessarily the best people to consult in trying to understand Jesus, right? Anyway, what does Jesus do? What he does is he gives his actions a context and points to a precedent from the Old Testament. [25] And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: [26] how he entered the house of God, when Abi'athar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?" [27] And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; He doesn't say that the Sabbath has been abolished, he is just showing the people to keep the rules in their proper perspective. And Matthew 23 is another good example of some of these ideas. [1] Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, [2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; [3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. So even while criticizing the Pharisees, Jesus is telling people to continue to obey the commandments they gave. And again more specifically: [23] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, ***without neglecting the others***. He doesn't say the little rules are abolished, but just that more important matters should take precedence. Keep things in perspective. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
> No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men who had > heard of an elephant but they'd never seen one (since they were blind) > so they had someone take them to an elephant and the felt different > parts of the animal and then argued among themselves about what an > elephant was really like. "An Elephant is sharp and pointy" "No an > elephant is shaped like a big wall" "No an elephant is shaped like a > tree trunk" "No an elephant is shaped like a rope" etc. There is one > elephant but the blind men experienced different parts of it, which > they thought was the whole thing. > For all those who haven't seen the story before, here is a translation by Andrew Harvey that I came across from Rumi's Mathnawi: "The Elephant, the Candle, and the Eye of the Sea" "Some Indians took an elephant into a dark house to exhibit it. People entered the house to try and find out what it was like, but since it was too dark for them to see anything clearly, they each had to feel the elephant with their hands. One person put his hand on its trunk and said. "This animal is like a water-pipe!" The hand of another brushed its large ear; it seemed to him like a fan. Another seized its leg and declared, "The form of the elephant is like a pillar!" Another put his hand on his back and proclaimed, "The elephant is like a throne!" "Each time anyone heard a description of the elephant, he would understand it through the particular part he had touched. According to whichever section of the animal they had encountered, peoples affirmations differed. If each of them held out a candle in the dark all differences between what they said would have vanished. "The eye of outward sense is only like the palm of a hand; how can you discover an elephant in its totality with just a palm? The eye of the sea is one thing, the foam another; leave the foam aside, see with the eye of the sea." Hello Gilberto, To me, the elephant could be a metaphor for religions & Baha'u'llah would be the metaphor for the candle or the eye of the sea. Much more is clear to me about all religions through my understanding of Baha'u'llah's teachings (however limited that is) than would be otherwise. For example, Baha'u'llah speaks of the "Manifestation" as the "Tree of Life". This single image ties so much together that a full evaluation would probably fill volumes. Take just one example, Buddha's enlightenment under the fig tree, i.e. the tree of life. This can tie Buddhism back into the story of the Biblical trees of Genesis (which is probably also related to the religions that pre-dated the Abrahamic ones) all the way through to the end of the Book of Revelation. Also, on the literal level I wonder if perhaps Buddha might actually have been a physical descendent of Abraham through one of the children that he sent to the "east country" (he had Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, and Midian, Ishbak & Shuah in addition to Isaac and Ishmael). There is a specific prophecy in Isaiah Chapter 6 that Christ refers to about eyes that don't see, ears that are stopped, and hearts that are hard. This also reappears in Isaiah 44, but additional details are incorporated. In this case the "tree" gives "bread", but over time people end up making idols from the ashes of the wood and worshiping the stump/stock of the tree. To me, this is illustrative of the various older religions. They have given their warmth, and bread, and heat, but what is left are dead stumps & various odd things created from the ashes. The same themes, of eyes, ears and heart are blind, deaf, and hard run through the Bible and Qur'an. I think perhaps these lacking qualities are how we end up with strange, distorted & selfish interpretations of holy scripture & prophecy. For example, I remember reading that the 9/11 hijackers were looking at a prophecy that the "towers" should fall. They took that as meaning that the Twin Towers should fall; however, I think it could be more clearly interpreted using the archetypical/metaphorical tower, the tower of Babel--built by people who tried to equate themselves with God. Nowadays, it seems like we have people, not just in Islam, but in Christianity and Judaism as well (and perhaps even in the Baha'i Faith) who "join partners with God" and worship the spiritual idols of their own creation. I believe that the process Baha'u'llah has set in place through His teachings will result in the destruction of the metaphorical/egotistical towers. There is much more, but I will end it here for now. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 08:52 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: >>Speaking very loosely and generally and probably incorrectly, it seemed like >>you had a sincere healthy respect for religious diversity, not as absolutist >>as other Bahais I've come across. But then at the same time you seem deadset >>against perennialism.<< As a sociologist of religion, I respect many religions (socially constructed systems of beliefs and praxes, focused on the sacred/extraordinary, which unite people into moral/normative communities) on **their own** terms. Perennialism (Platonic syncretism) is, in my view, a type of ideational colonialism. Although many proponents of perennialism *claim* to respect other religions (as they define them), I see their approaches more as domination than respect. (I have similar views about the approaches of some Baha'is to various other religions - which resemble perennialism.) >>Also in other contexts, I've seen Bahais try to reconcile the Quranic >>criticisms of Christian theology with the Biblical statements of Christian >>theology and they seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too. Affirming >>everything so as to not offend, so I was surprised that you seemed to flat >>out reject the Trinity.<< The subject of the relationship between God, His Prophets, and the particular Holy Spirits of those Prophets has been discussed by `Abdu'l-Baha. His views bear little resemblance to either the Western/Eastern or the Oriental (Monophysite) constructions of the Trinity. >>Also the positive comments about Crowley and LaVey were surprising as well.<< I still find hermeticism, Thelema, and other such systems to be fascinating. Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
> Brent: > > Fulfill. Not co-opt. > > Gilberto: > So what do you think co-opt means? > Hi Gilberto, Please allow me to jump in here. I think it might be useful to look at how Christ "fulfilled" the law of Moses: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18 It seems that you are running into the same issue that came up way back then. Christ abrogated many of the social laws of Moses--eg. the Sabbath; however, the fulfillment was on the spiritual level--Christ's teachings moved forward the process of human spiritual growth. The believers could actually begin to understand on a deeper level and apply the laws with a level of meaning and understanding above rote obedience. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/13/2004 8:52:59 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprisedthat you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. In the Christian sense Baha`i's do not believe in the "Trinity" much either. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:46:23 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Okay then, a couple of questions: Which of my ideas appear correct to you > (and > why)? And what other implications of my ideas would you expect? Gilberto: Speaking very loosely and generally and probably incorrectly, it seemed like you had a sincere healthy respect for religious diversity, not as absolutist as other Bahais I've come across. But then at the same time you seem deadset against perennialism. Gilberto: Also in other contexts, I've seen Bahais try to reconcile the Quranic criticisms of Christian theology with the Biblical statements of Christian theology and they seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too. Affirming everything so as to not offend, so I was surprised that you seemed to flat out reject the Trinity. Gilberto: Also the positive comments about Crowley and LaVey were surprising as well. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 04:08 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the >>possibility of what I wrote above.<< If I understood you correctly, you suggested that (at least some?) proponents of perennialism might distinguish between actuality and necessity. In other words, even though the perennial philosophy has characterized certain (all?) traditions, movements, or (fill in the blank), you believe it unnecessary that it should continue as such in the future. I pointed out that every perennialist whose works I have read appeared to believe in the identity of the philosophia perennis with God's Nature (i.e., Platonism), and that, in this context, it has been regarded as invariable. >>So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change?<< I don't know about God's Essence, but I think God and His Messengers *can* change Their minds or wills. >>On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define >>murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases.<< I agree. >>But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's >>attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is >>one unknowable essence, one elephant.<< Well, *I* was using the elephant as an illustration for a paradigm (a divine Revelation). I suppose one *could* use the same metaphor for the divine Essence. >>I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is >>where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've >>heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of >>implications I would expect.<< Okay then, a couple of questions: Which of my ideas appear correct to you (and why)? And what other implications of my ideas would you expect? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:00:24 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 01:41 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: > >>Okay, but what I'm saying is that one can say God "*can* change His mind, > >>but chose not to, at least not in an ultimate sense, hence the perennial > >>philosophy.<< Mark: > Most proponents of the perennial philosophy I have read would not agree with > what you wrote, including the traditionalists and Huxley. They *begin* with > the assumption, the foundationalism, that the same basic truths are repeated > time and again, and they then proceed, deductively, to draw their conclusions > from that assumption. Gilberto: I'm not convinced that what you wrote contradicts or precludes the possibility of what I wrote above. Gilberto: > >>The Perennial philosophy doesn't imply putting presumtuous limits on God. > >>The disagreement isn't about what God can do but over what God does do.<< Mark: > Some of them may make that distinction, but, if so, I am unaware of it. You > would need to show me an example. However, all the perennialists I have read > assume that the perennial philosophy reflects the timeless Nature, or > Essence, of God. > Mark: > One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of > *essential* constancy. Gilberto: > >>I'm not sure why this is problematic.<< Mark: > Because they fail to distinguish between God's Will and His Essence. Gilberto: So you are saying that both God's will and God's Essence can change? Gilberto: > >>Right. I think that being actually guilty of murder in some moral sense is > >>a very very different question from whether one is convicted guilty of > >>murder in a court of law.<< Mark: > Okay, but what is "some moral sense"? Are you referring to religious law? Gilberto: It could be religious or rooted in some ethical philosophy. Something other than just what the defense attorney, prosecuting attorney and a judge decide in a cigar smoke filled room. Gilberto: > >>Innocent people are convicted all the time. Guilty people are let off on > >>technicalities. That's why I don't think that plea bargaining or other such > >>behavior is a good argument for the flexibilitiy of the definition of > >>murder.<< Mark: > I am not arguing for it. I am saying that definitions of murder are often > grounded in opportunism, politics, and language games. Gilberto: On some level there is a distinciton between a good faith attempt to define murder, and the kinds of motivated arranements which happen in court cases. Gilberto: > >>Ok. But my question is why you would say there is more than one elephant.<< Mark: > It goes back to what I suggested before about each Revelation being a > distinct paradigm. Gilberto: But the paradigm isn't the elephant, the paradigm is just the blind man's attempt to touch the elephant and guess at what it's really like. There is one unknowable essence, one elephant. Gliberto > >>Different religions are looking at the one God in different ways.<< Mark: > Yes, or, perhaps, as in the case of the Buddhisms, not focusing on "God" at > all. > gilberto: Sure: Gilberto: > >>How do you see the analogy working?<< Mark: > I am a perspectivist. I believe that there are many possible Baha'i faiths > (small "f") in the context of the Baha'i Faith. > I wrote: > IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the > revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). > > You replied: > >>What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Although I'm not sure how to > >>pinpoint where the disagreement is.<< > > lol. A lot of people don't agree with me. You are not alone. > Gilberto: I'm not surprised THAT we disagree, what I'm just trying to figure out is where we disagree. Some things you say sound more correct than what I've heard from other Bahais but you don't seem to accept the kinds of implications I would expect. Peace gilberto > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 01:41 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: >>Okay, but what I'm saying is that one can say God "*can* change His mind, but >>chose not to, at least not in an ultimate sense, hence the perennial >>philosophy.<< Most proponents of the perennial philosophy I have read would not agree with what you wrote, including the traditionalists and Huxley. They *begin* with the assumption, the foundationalism, that the same basic truths are repeated time and again, and they then proceed, deductively, to draw their conclusions from that assumption. >>The Perennial philosophy doesn't imply putting presumtuous limits on God. The >>disagreement isn't about what God can do but over what God does do.<< Some of them may make that distinction, but, if so, I am unaware of it. You would need to show me an example. However, all the perennialists I have read assume that the perennial philosophy reflects the timeless Nature, or Essence, of God. I wrote: One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. You replied: >>I'm not sure why this is problematic.<< Because they fail to distinguish between God's Will and His Essence. >>Right. I think that being actually guilty of murder in some moral sense is a >>very very different question from whether one is convicted guilty of murder >>in a court of law.<< Okay, but what is "some moral sense"? Are you referring to religious law? >>Innocent people are convicted all the time. Guilty people are let off on >>technicalities. That's why I don't think that plea bargaining or other such >>behavior is a good argument for the flexibilitiy of the definition of >>murder.<< I am not arguing for it. I am saying that definitions of murder are often grounded in opportunism, politics, and language games. >>Ok. But my question is why you would say there is more than one elephant.<< It goes back to what I suggested before about each Revelation being a distinct paradigm. >>Different religions are looking at the one God in different ways.<< Yes, or, perhaps, as in the case of the Buddhisms, not focusing on "God" at all. >>How do you see the analogy working?<< I am a perspectivist. I believe that there are many possible Baha'i faiths (small "f") in the context of the Baha'i Faith. I wrote: IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). You replied: >>What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Although I'm not sure how to >>pinpoint where the disagreement is.<< lol. A lot of people don't agree with me. You are not alone. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Our friend Gilberto wrote: > >>There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community>> > >>the claim that the validity of the Islamic dispensation has been abrogated>> Brent: > We believe it is a fundamental reality of the greatest importance to realize, > that every succeeding Prophet has the authority to abrogate the laws of > previous Prophets. Gilberto: I'm not sure if I want to argue about whether or not that this is true. But it still doesn't refute the main point that the Bahai faith says the Islamic laws have been abrogated and this means the Bahai faith is less able to say that they are promoting and supporting Islam. Brent: Abrogation of His laws in a succeeding Dispensation is not a discredit to any Prophet, for the wholesome medicine God sent for the needs of a previous millennium, may not be as perfect as that He sends at a later time; and again, He may re-establish an earlier law at a later time. Gilberto: > >>there are certainly many Bahais who have argued that Islam is unsuitable > >>for the modern age, compared it to poison even>> Brent: > While some aspects of Islam are not the remedy for today's needs (some are), > I have not, in 34 years of being a Baha'i, heard a single one compare any > Divine Revelation including that of the Prophet Muhammad's to poison. Gilberto: Quite recently someone extended that same medical metaphor and claimed that what is medicine in one situation can be poison in another. Brent: I think that would be a shameful act, to speak so disrespectfully of the Holy Word. Gilberto: > >>The Quran is on the lips, but the hadith are discarded.>> Brent: > The Hadith are not discarded; in the Baha'i Dispensation they are relegated > to a subordinate station to the Revealed Word. I think this is because in > Islam the Hadith, even the contradictory ones and those of weak lineage and > authenticity, are all viewed as being as binding as the Word itself. Gilberto: I think you are mistaken. The use of hadith is not done indiscriminately. The hadith are rated according to authenticity and only the most authentic are used to derrive binding legislation. Brent: To rectify this over-emphasis, Baha'u'llah has modified their role. They are not to be suppressed, but in His Dispensation traditions do not possess authority. Gilberto: That's what I am calling discarded. Perhaps you are right in saying that the hadith are extensively quoted in the Bahai writings, but at least my experience in the newsgroup people seem uniformly opposed to accepting anything which comes from a hadith. Gilberto: > >>it seems like the Bahai faith would seek to co-opt Islam. And if you don't > >>particularly want to get co-opted then this is a bad thing.>> Brent: > Fulfill. Not co-opt. Gilberto: So what do you think co-opt means? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi Mark, On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:25:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, > > At 12:00 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: Gilberto: > >>I'm not sure why you are assuming "He doesth whatsoever He willeth" would > >>preclude God's will from being constant. If we really do believe that God > >>can do what He wants then why wouldn't that include the possibility of > >>having a constant will?<< Mark: > I am not making a prior judgement about whether God's Will is constant in any > particular situation. I am assuming that God *can* change His mind. Gilberto: Okay, but what I'm saying is that one can say God "*can* change His mind, but chose not to, at least not in an ultimate sense, hence the perennial philosophy. The Perennial philosophy doesn't imply putting presumtuous limits on God. The disagreement isn't about what God can do but over what God does do. Gilberto: > >>Or a Perennial Philosophy or a Last Prophet or whatever. He doeth whatsover > >>he willeth.<< Mark: > One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of > *essential* constancy. Gilberto: I'm not sure why this is problematic. Gilberto: > >>But does that really mean the definition of murder is really flexible?<< Mark: > Of course. You don't think so? Gilberto: I agree within some limits the definition of murder changes from culture to culture, but the flexibility is not absolute. But I'm not yet convinced that plea bargaining is a good example of that. Gilberto: > >>I've always thought that on some level people still realize that > >>plea-bargaining is cynical and dishonest in some respects. It involves a > >>loss of integrity in exchange for convenience, efficiency on the government > >>side and managing risk on the accused person's side.<< Mark: > I think it is more complex than that. (I used to teach criminology.) In many > cases, prosecutors will intentionally charge a person with a higher offense > in order to pressure the defendant, and her or his attorney, to agree to a > plea. Gilberto: Right. I think that being actually guilty of murder in some moral sense is a very very different question from whether one is convicted guilty of murder in a court of law. Innocent people are convicted all the time. Guilty people are let off on technicalities. That's why I don't think that plea bargaining or other such behavior is a good argument for the flexibilitiy of the definition of murder. Gilberto: > >>I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that christo-logy or in general > >>theo-logy is not a matter of ontology but more a matter of what the tongue > >>chooses to say or not say, so it is more a matter of practice?<< Mark: > Not general theology. I was referring specifically to christology and > prophetology. > >>No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men << > Yes, that is what I had in mind. The story is found in the literatures of > Jainism, Buddhism, and Sufism. Gilberto: Ok. But my question is why you would say there is more than one elephant. The way I would normally see it is that the different religions are like the different blind men, which each focus in on some aspects of the elephant. Different religions are looking at the one God in different ways. Gilberto: How do you see the analogy working? Gilberto: > >>And what I would suggest is that the apparent disagreements among different > >>religions might be resolved in a similar way and at the end of things we > >>might be allowed to "see" and everything will make sense.<< Mark: > IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed > Word (the words of the Prophets). Gilberto: What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Although I'm not sure how to pinpoint where the disagreement is. Peace gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:16:22 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Gilberto,
> At 12:14 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote:
> >>First she wants to get the ingedients in one place, and then she wants to
> >>make the batter, and then she wants to grease the pans, and then she wants
> >>to pour the batter in the pan, and then she wants to make the frosting.etc.
> >>" but then from another perspective, its the constant unchanging will of
> >>the chef to make a cake. And if you understand that, you can see how God's
> >>will never changed.<<
Mark:
> Well, we might have different perspectives on this subject. I would not want
> to go as far as the openness theists ("hyper-Arminians"), who say that God
> can change His mind because He does not know the future, but I would never
> place limitations on God's options. As Susan Maneck is fond of quoting, "He
> doeth whatsoever He willeth."
Gilberto:
I'm not sure why you are assuming "He doesth whatsoever He willeth"
would preclude God's will from being constant. If we really do believe
that God can do what He wants then why wouldn't that include the
possibility of having a constant will? Or a Perennial Philosophy or a
Last Prophet or whatever. He doeth whatsover he willeth.
Gilberto:
> >>I understand your examples and thought along similar lines. That's why I
> >>specifically said murder, not just killing. Actually murder might be
> >>defined as unlawful killing so maybe its even a tautology that murder is
> >>wrong.<<
Mark:
> I think so. Murder is whatever people say is murder. For instance, it is
> fairly common, at least in the U.S., that a person charged with murder may be
> allowed by the prosecutor to plea bargain down to manslaughter.
Gilberto:
But does that really mean the definition of murder is really flexible?
I've always thought that on some level people still realize that
plea-bargaining is cynical and dishonest in some respects. It involves
a loss of integrity in exchange for convenience, efficiency on the
government side and managing risk on the accused person's side.
Gilberto:
> >>Do you think the belief in the divinity of Christ or the Sonship of Christ
> >>is also shirk?<<
Mark:
> I think that a belief in the Deity, not divinity, of Christ (in the context
> of the Trinity) may be shirk. For example, I would have no problem saying
> that "Christ is God," but I mean by it that Christ manifests, or reflects,
> God. He is not on the same level as the divine Essence.
Mark:
> Honestly, given my tendency to minimize the importance of orthodoxy, I am
> somewhat uncomfortable discussing shirk. However, I regard christology (or
> prophetology) as an aspect of the Covenant, and, in that sense, I consider it
> to be an element of orthopraxy, not orthodoxy.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that christo-logy or in
general theo-logy is not a matter of ontology but more a matter of
what the tongue chooses to say or not say, so it is more a matter of
practice?
> >>I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought that
> >>the elephant is God.<<
>
> You mean Ganesha? ;-) No, I was using the term to refer to a particular
> divine Revelation.
>
No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men who had
heard of an elephant but they'd never seen one (since they were blind)
so they had someone take them to an elephant and the felt different
parts of the animal and then argued among themselves about what an
elephant was really like. "An Elephant is sharp and pointy" "No an
elephant is shaped like a big wall" "No an elephant is shaped like a
tree trunk" "No an elephant is shaped like a rope" etc. There is one
elephant but the blind men experienced different parts of it, which
they thought was the whole thing.
And what I would suggest is that the apparent disagreements among
different religions might be resolved in a similar way and at the end
of things we might be allowed to "see" and everything will make sense.
Peace
Gilberto
"My people are hydroponic"
__
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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 12:00 PM 12/13/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not sure why you are assuming "He doesth whatsoever He willeth" would >>preclude God's will from being constant. If we really do believe that God can >>do what He wants then why wouldn't that include the possibility of having a >>constant will?<< I am not making a prior judgement about whether God's Will is constant in any particular situation. I am assuming that God *can* change His mind. >>Or a Perennial Philosophy or a Last Prophet or whatever. He doeth whatsover >>he willeth.<< One of the problems with the philosophia perennis is its assumption of *essential* constancy. >>But does that really mean the definition of murder is really flexible?<< Of course. You don't think so? >>I've always thought that on some level people still realize that >>plea-bargaining is cynical and dishonest in some respects. It involves a loss >>of integrity in exchange for convenience, efficiency on the government side >>and managing risk on the accused person's side.<< I think it is more complex than that. (I used to teach criminology.) In many cases, prosecutors will intentionally charge a person with a higher offense in order to pressure the defendant, and her or his attorney, to agree to a plea. Prosecuting attorneys often socially construct an alleged crime to suit the evidentiary requirements. It isn't cut and dry. However, aside from that issue, murder is simply a term for whatever legislators, as interpreted by judges (and juries), in a particular jurisdiction (country, province, state, etc.) decide should be murder. >>I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that christo-logy or in general >>theo-logy is not a matter of ontology but more a matter of what the tongue >>chooses to say or not say, so it is more a matter of practice?<< Not general theology. I was referring specifically to christology and prophetology. >>No. There is the famous (So I thought) fable of the blind men << Yes, that is what I had in mind. The story is found in the literatures of Jainism, Buddhism, and Sufism. >>And what I would suggest is that the apparent disagreements among different >>religions might be resolved in a similar way and at the end of things we >>might be allowed to "see" and everything will make sense.<< IMO, seeing truth is another way of referring to the study of the revealed Word (the words of the Prophets). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Susan, At 11:05 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote: >>Huh? I thought I was fond of "She doeth whatsoever She willeth." ;-}<< I wonder if Terry Culhane is reading this. ;-) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
"As Susan Maneck is fond of quoting, "He doeth whatsoever He willeth."" Huh? I thought I was fond of "She doeth whatsoever She willeth." ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto,
At 12:14 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote:
>>First she wants to get the ingedients in one place, and then she wants to
>>make the batter, and then she wants to grease the pans, and then she wants to
>>pour the batter in the pan, and then she wants to make the frosting.etc. "
>>but then from another perspective, its the constant unchanging will of the
>>chef to make a cake. And if you understand that, you can see how God's will
>>never changed.<<
Well, we might have different perspectives on this subject. I would not want to
go as far as the openness theists ("hyper-Arminians"), who say that God can
change His mind because He does not know the future, but I would never place
limitations on God's options. As Susan Maneck is fond of quoting, "He doeth
whatsoever He willeth."
"He Who is the Dawning-place of God's Cause hath no partner in the Most Great
Infallibility. He it is Who, in the kingdom of creation, is the Manifestation
of 'He doeth whatsoever He willeth'. God hath reserved this distinction unto
His own Self, and ordained for none a share in so sublime and transcendent a
station."
-- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, pp.36-37
>>I understand your examples and thought along similar lines. That's why I
>>specifically said murder, not just killing. Actually murder might be defined
>>as unlawful killing so maybe its even a tautology that murder is wrong.<<
I think so. Murder is whatever people say is murder. For instance, it is fairly
common, at least in the U.S., that a person charged with murder may be allowed
by the prosecutor to plea bargain down to manslaughter.
>>No, I wouldn't but they claim to be and their arguments in their defense are
>>not stupid ones. That's why I would say that they are "arguably loosely
>>monotheistic"<<
I will go along with that.
>>Do you think the belief in the divinity of Christ or the Sonship of Christ is
>>also shirk?<<
I think that a belief in the Deity, not divinity, of Christ (in the context of
the Trinity) may be shirk. For example, I would have no problem saying that
"Christ is God," but I mean by it that Christ manifests, or reflects, God. He
is not on the same level as the divine Essence.
Honestly, given my tendency to minimize the importance of orthodoxy, I am
somewhat uncomfortable discussing shirk. However, I regard christology (or
prophetology) as an aspect of the Covenant, and, in that sense, I consider it
to be an element of orthopraxy, not orthodoxy.
>>I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought that
>>the elephant is God.<<
You mean Ganesha? ;-) No, I was using the term to refer to a particular divine
Revelation.
Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger"
-- Abbie Hoffman
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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:21:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/13/2004 12:14:59 AM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought > that the elephant is God. Scott: > I don't think we get to see "GOD" other than what the Prophets show us of > Him. Hmm... but then that's kind of why we are the blind men who don't see the elephant directly. Moreover, in both Islam and Christianity the beatific vision of God is promised. I'm not sure what you mean below. Rumi's fable of the elephant and the blind men already comes with a particular context and meaning. I'm not sure why you are changing the meaning. And especially if in the Bahai faith there is one God, one religion, one humanity, why would there be more than one elephant? Is there something wrong with there being one elephant? Peace Gilberto So the continuity of the messages is that it is always an elephant, > though the particular elephant this time may vary in color or shape of ears, > or length of tail or length of tusks, each arguably is a perfect elephant > when it is in view but the perfection lies within the elephant, and we > should appreciate the perfection rather than just any elephant that might > not possess that perfection at a particular time. > > Regards, > > Scott__ > > > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto wrote: >>And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.>> I'd like to try a perhaps different approach to responding to this question. I'd like to offer as a response, the attitudes of people who come from non-Islamic backgrounds into the Baha'i Faith, towards the Islamic Entities you mention -- Muhammad and the Imams, the Qur'an and the Hadith. I feel confident saying that for after Baha'is have been in the community long enough to have read some Baha'i literature, their attitudes towards these Entities is going to skyrocket. So in addition to seeing how these Entities are regarded in Baha'i literature, there is also the method of seeing the influence of Baha'i literature on the Baha'is themselves. Baha'is are unafraid of being seen reading the Qur'an in public, even if it raises questions. If questioned, it's an opportunity to clarify people's sight regarding the Book and Prophet of Islam. I think that Baha'is tend to look for ways to link up with people of other faiths. My precious little grandson went with my wife and his parents to the Baha'i House of Worship in Chicago. He was only 3, and my wife had explained that "this is God's house" so things would be on his level. He dutifully climbed the steps and entered the sanctuary. Thirty seconds later a group of Buddhist monks entered, with shaved heads and saffron robes and sandals. He stared and stared; he had never seen anybody like that before. Then he turned with a smile and said to his grandma, "Those people are my FRIENDS!" That is the attitude Baha'is are instilling in their children. The same thing is occurring in our children's classes, and that is a very, very healthy thing to be bringing into the world these days. The criticisms of Muslims who oppressed Baha'u'llah in the 19th Centure, or who oppress Baha'is today, are indeed harsh. But I know for myself, a great deal of my reverence for these Islamic entities came from a study of The Dawn-Breakers. The elevated attitude of the Bab and Quddus and Mulla Husayn towards Muhammad and the Imams, towards the Qur'an and the Hadith, is most extraordinary. And this, although that book is also a catalog of outrages suffered by the Babis at the hands of Islamic clerics and those they stirred up. We know how to distinguish between those of the 'ulama whose deeds accord with their words, and those who don't. Again, my point is that the generality of the Baha'i community who had not one good thing to say about Muhammad or Islam before becoming Baha'is, learn reverence toward Them. Quite understandably, the Persian Baha'is, who live through the hardships of loss of jobs and property, the imprisonment and death of loved ones, the inability to get an education -- their attitudes towards Muslims are affected by these firsthand experiences. But when praises of these Islamic Entities comes from the lips of a community that has been rigidly suppressed by Muslims in most Islamic countries -- it has a deep effect on non-Muslim, non-Baha'i listeners. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/13/2004 12:14:59 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thoughtthat the elephant is God. I don't think we get to see "GOD" other than what the Prophets show us of Him. So the continuity of the messages is that it is always an elephant, though the particular elephant this time may vary in color or shape of ears, or length of tail or length of tusks, each arguably is a perfect elephant when it is in view but the perfection lies within the elephant, and we should appreciate the perfection rather than just any elephant that might not possess that perfection at a particular time. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:12:50 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, > At 05:29 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: Gilberto: > >>No, that's not what I meant. BOTH Po-tay-to and Po-tah-to they are just > >>different ways of saying the same thing. I was asking if it was possible > >>that saying God has one will is really the same as perennialism.<< Mark: > Oh, I see. I don't think so, [...] Most perennialists, including the > Traditionalists, believe that there is a single ageless, universal truth, a > doctrinal essence, which has been repeated time and again by various > prophets, avatars, or gurus. Mark: > What I am suggesting is that God can *will* whatever He chooses.[...] God can > change His mind (bada), not in the sense of having done something wrong, but > as an act of sovereign Will. In other words, He can do whatever He likes. Gilberto: And what I would suggest is that perhaps there is something in between. Like a recipie. If the chef's goal is to make a multi-layer wedding cake, there are several steps to go through. And if one is fixated on the steps then someone might say, "Look how the chef keeps changing her mind. First she wants to get the ingedients in one place, and then she wants to make the batter, and then she wants to grease the pans, and then she wants to pour the batter in the pan, and then she wants to make the frosting.etc. " but then from another perspective, its the constant unchanging will of the chef to make a cake. And if you understand that, you can see how God's will never changed. Is there a :"minimal earthling morality" Mark questioned how uniform it really is. Gilberto: > >>Sure. Sure. I agree. I'm only speaking loosely. I probably could have said > >>things more explicitly. All I had in mind was how most religions have a > >>Golden Rule of some kind. Most religions would say murdering is wrong in > >>most situations.<< Mark: > But do they really say that murder is wrong? A great deal can be accomplished > merely by changing the label. Gilberto: I understand your examples and thought along similar lines. That's why I specifically said murder, not just killing. Actually murder might be defined as unlawful killing so maybe its even a tautology that murder is wrong. Mark: > For instance, why is it that someone who kills another person unintentionally > might be charged with involuntary manslaughter. However, the identical > behavior in the military is called friendly fire, and, unless the troop was > disobeying orders, it is unlikely she or he will ever be charged. [Do Abrahamic religions have a common foundation] Gilberto: > >>I mainly have in mind groups who would call themselves Jews, Christians, > >>and Muslims, and their offshoots (So in the case of Judaism offshots would > >>include groups like the Samaritans and Karites, in the case of > >>Christianity there are groups like Rastafarians, Mormons, Jehovah's > >>Witnesses, with Islam there are examples like the Druzes)<< Mark: > My point is that the terms Jew, Christian, and Muslim, in the framework of > today's world, are unclear. One needs to specify particular branches of those > religions. Gilberto: > >>So for example they are all arguably loosely monotheistic, they think that > >>Abraham had some special arrangement with God, which was continued with > >>Isaac, Jacob and Moses. And these peoples are seen as the good guys.<< Mark: > Would you regard Trinitarian Christians as monotheistic? Gilberto: No, I wouldn't but they claim to be and their arguments in their defense are not stupid ones. That's why I would say that they are "arguably loosely monotheistic" Mark: I respect their right to believe what they want, but I would not call them monotheists. IMO, three persons in one is not One. Wasn't that Muhammad's point in the Qur'an - that Trinitarianism, even as different as its 7th-century Arabian version might be from the ones more common today, was shirk? > Gilberto: Do you think the belief in the divinity of Christ or the Sonship of Christ is also shirk? Are they also contradicted by the Quran? Gilberto: > >>What different elephats did you have in mind?<< > Mark: > Well, to use the analogy, I think that each Prophet's Revelation constitutes > a new elephant. > > I forget if I've talked to you about this before. I would have thought that the elephant is God. Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 05:29 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>No, that's not what I meant. BOTH Po-tay-to and Po-tah-to they are just >>different ways of saying the same thing. I was asking if it was possible that >>saying God has one will is really the same as perennialism.<< Oh, I see. I don't think so, no. Perennialism is kind of revisionist Platonism. (I would say, "neo-Platonism," but that term is already taken.) Most perennialists, including the Traditionalists, believe that there is a single ageless, universal truth, a doctrinal essence, which has been repeated time and again by various prophets, avatars, or gurus. What I am suggesting is that God can *will* whatever He chooses. He is not bound by a collective unconscious, world of ideal forms, or noosphere to repeat the same basic ideas or themes in every age. God can change His mind (bada), not in the sense of having done something wrong, but as an act of sovereign Will. In other words, He can do whatever He likes. >>But the Bahai writing necessarily do try to reconcile certain things which >>most folks would find contradictory. Like saying the Quran is the word of God >>(including its statements about Jesus) while at the same time having Shoghi >>Effendi assert that Jesus was divine and the Son of God.<< The Prophets reveal truths within the framework of God's Will. When Baha'u'llah writes, He does so, IMO, as the latest Messenger of God. Therefore, He addresses people of the present time and calls upon them to follow Him. He is not, to my understanding, advocating that Baha'is hegemonize or colonize other religions. His Revelation is not triumphalist. >>Sure, but the question is how to view that diversity. I mean a fundamentalist >>might recognize a variety of paradigms but then picks one and says all the >>others are just flat out wrong. That's not what I"m talking about.<< IMO, religious hegemony is the other side of the coin to fundamentalism. Both reflect authoritarianism. >>Sure. Sure. I agree. I'm only speaking loosely. I probably could have said >>things more explicitly. All I had in mind was how most religions have a >>Golden Rule of some kind. Most religions would say murdering is wrong in most >>situations.<< But do they really say that murder is wrong? A great deal can be accomplished merely by changing the label. For instance, why is it that someone who kills another person unintentionally might be charged with involuntary manslaughter. However, the identical behavior in the military is called friendly fire, and, unless the troop was disobeying orders, it is unlikely she or he will ever be charged. More relevant to the subject, the taking of human, in the context of punishment, is termed "capital punishment" and is condoned by many scriptures. In the framework of war, it is simply called "killing" and is also condoned. In other words, it is relatively easy to escape the implications of our actions by simply playing language games. >>I mainly have in mind groups who would call themselves Jews, Christians, and >>Muslims, and their offshoots (So in the case of Judaism offshots would >>include groups like the Samaritans and Karites, in the case of Christianity >>there are groups like Rastafarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, with Islam >>there are examples like the Druzes)<< My point is that the terms Jew, Christian, and Muslim, in the framework of today's world, are unclear. One needs to specify particular branches of those religions. >>So for example they are all arguably loosely monotheistic, they think that >>Abraham had some special arrangement with God, which was continued with >>Isaac, Jacob and Moses. And these peoples are seen as the good guys.<< Would you regard Trinitarian Christians as monotheistic? I respect their right to believe what they want, but I would not call them monotheists. IMO, three persons in one is not One. Wasn't that Muhammad's point in the Qur'an - that Trinitarianism, even as different as its 7th-century Arabian version might be from the ones more common today, was shirk? >>What different elephats did you have in mind?<< Well, to use the analogy, I think that each Prophet's Revelation constitutes a new elephant. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
For those who follow Mullá Sadrá's position, which he here calls Tawhíd-i-Wujúdi (existential oneness), Khazeh jan, Does Baha'u'llah have Mulla Sadra's thought in mind when He refers to Tawhid-i Wujud? I always associated it more with Ibn Arabi, though I suppose Mulla Sadra would have shared his views on that subject. " For those who opposed Mullá Sadrá's position, which he here calls Tawhíd-i-Shuhúdí (oneness in appearence only)," Likewise I would have assoicated this with Shaykh Ahmad Sirindi, since that is the concept he used in opposition to Ibn Arabi. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
from Gilberto Simpson Dear Khazeh, Wow, that was again alot of content. Could I ask you a small favor? Would it be possible to cut-and-paste less, especially if you are not going to thoroughly discuss something and intersperse comments? In this last letter it was hard to tell what was the new material and what was the old. Dear Gilberto 1] You are right. I am sorry. It was the weekend here and I had a lot to read and "offer". From tomorrow I shall not be able to write so much or maybe anything at all... On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:53:49 -, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: . > http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith > _dialogue.htm > The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven Valleys > of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane... > And God willing He will one day see that Face too. My only response would be if that's actually true, then it suggests that perhaps many of the deep insights which are found in the Bahai writings were already there in the Quran, in hadith, in the writings of Sufis and the Islamic philosophical tradition. And so from a certain perspective, nothing is really missing. Peace Gilberto 2] On THIS SECOND POINT ."And so from a certain perspective, nothing is really missingGilberto" Yes dear Gilberto again you are RIGHT. That is why I would beg you beseech you to consider the Text from Baha'u'llah I offered this quotation from the IqtidArAt Baha'u'llah: Alwah-i-Had.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893] pages 86-87. If the peoples of the world were to attain to the [Maqs.ud] purpose [aim, intention] of God they would not become veiled in the times of the Manifestation [z.uhur]. Thus although they recited the Book of God for years they did not attain a letter [h.arf] of its meanings [ma'aani].Thus... If it be said that all things [kull] were hidden and concealed [mastuur wa maknuun] in the Book of God, and, further, that in the Manifestation of the Point of Bayan [may the spirit of all being be His sacrifice!] the countenances of meanings [ma'aani] heretofore hidden in the chambers of divine Words [kalimaat] came forth from behind veils then this utterance is the indubitable truth [h.aqqun laa rayba fihi]. On the other hand If it be stated that in the past the meanings were mentioned in summary [ijmaal= abstract, summary, abridged, synopsis] and it is NOW that the Interpreter [mubayyin] and Expounder [mufas.s.il] has come this utterance is also true and no doubt attacheth thereunto. Finally if it be said that all that has appeared [z.aahir] in this New Wondrous Manifestation has not been there before [na-buudeh] and everything is a new [badee'] creation, this manner of utterance is also correct and accurate [sah.eeh. wa tamaam] for if the One True God [glorified be His Remembrance [Dhikr] speaks a Word- a Word which all peoples have been speaking from time immemorial nevertheless that Word is NEW were ye to ponder this theme in depth [tatafakkarun] ... Baha'u'llah Alwah-i-H.ad.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893] pages 86-87. (provisional by this evanescent one) *** So if you kindly and lovingly repeat the gaze this Passage above says that in a sense all was revealed, in a sense, the purpose is disclosed NOW, in a sense, very little was revealed. *** Thus it is related in the "Biharu'l-Anvar," the "Avalim," and the "Yanbu'" of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke these words: "Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof. No man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest." Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even unto the "Seal," as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having been sent down with these two letters. He also saith that the Qa'im will reveal ALL THE REMAINING TWENTY AND FIVE LETTERS. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 243-244)*** This Day is unique in this respect. The following analogy of the Holy Qur'an really deeply spiritually referring to this same insight 022.005 YUSUFALI: O mankind! ...(consider) that We created you out of dust, THEN [=thumma] out of sperm, THEN [=thumma]out of a leech-like clot, THEN [=thumma] out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an APPOINTED term, THEN do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength... and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is STIRRED (TO LIFE), IT SWELLS, AND IT PUTS FORTH every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs). I think Gilberto dear brother from one point of view you have received
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:23:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, > > At 01:38 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: Gilberto: > >>Especially given the other kinds of differences which Bahais seek to try to > >>reconcile, could it be the distinction you are trying to make here is more > >>along the lines of Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to?<< Mark: > However, your premise is incorrect. Accents can only be evaluated in the > context of geography. The correctness of one is not negated by the > correctness of the other. Gilberto: No, that's not what I meant. BOTH Po-tay-to and Po-tah-to they are just different ways of saying the same thing. I was asking if it was possible that saying God has one will is really the same as perennialism. Mark: > Similarly, not all Baha'is seek to reconcile differences. If one assumes > that "truths" can only be evaluated in the context of a particular divine > Revelation, > or paradigm, such attempts at reconciliation would be pointless. GIlberto: But the Bahai writing necessarily do try to reconcile certain things which most folks would find contradictory. Like saying the Quran is the word of God (including its statements about Jesus) while at the same time having Shoghi Effendi assert that Jesus was divine and the Son of God. Gilberto: > >>I just meant to suggest the possibility that God let's us see according to > >>our > > >own paradigms.<< Mark: > I would say that is more than a possibility. Doesn't the diversity of > conceptions > make it true by definition? Gilberto: Sure, but the question is how to view that diversity. I mean a fundamentalist might recognize a variety of paradigms but then picks one and says all the others are just flat out wrong. That's not what I"m talking about. Gilberto: > >>That religious diversity is ordained in some sense. There is an interesting > >>hadith where God says "I am as My servant thinks I am".<< Mark: > As a sociologist of religion, I respect religious diversity. However, I have > no > desire to see Baha'i views imposed on the doctrines of other religions, and > to > then call it "diversity." Gilberto: Neither would I. I Think there is a disconnect somewhere and that you aren't quie getting what I'm saying. Perhaps I should have been more clear and less telegraphic. GIlberto: > >>I think there is a level where I think all religions (except for maybe the > >>Hale-Bopp followin'-poison-kool-aid-drinking-gun-stockpilin' death cults) > >>are all positve in that they all tend to reinforce and affirm the basic > >>minimal standards of Earthling morality.<< Mark: > Minimal standards are subjective, and much depends on which religious > vements would be included in one's definition. The problem with broad, > neralizing statements is that they tend to simple restatements, or > projections, of > the views of the speaker or writer. Gilberto: Sure. Sure. I agree. I'm only speaking loosely. I probably could have said things more explicitly. All I had in mind was how most religions have a Golden Rule of some kind. Most religions would say murdering is wrong in most situations. Stealing is generally wrong. Honesty is generally the best policy. That sort of thing. Gilberto: > >>And then in some narrower sense, the Abrahamic religions have alot more > >>common ground Mark: > Which branches of the Abrahamic religions? I mainly have in mind groups who would call themselves Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and their offshoots (So in the case of Judaism offshots would include groups like the Samaritans and Karites, in the case of Christianity there are groups like Rastafarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, with Islam there are examples like the Druzes) So for example they are all arguably loosely monotheistic, they think that Abraham had some special arrangement with God, which was continued with Isaac, Jacob and Moses. And these peoples are seen as the good guys. And then if you expand the circle of religions more you could probably find other groups who could be called Abrahamic but some of them are going to be very different from the above. Groups like the Mandeans who believed in John the Baptist but not Jesus. Gnostic Christian groups who thought Jehovah was the bad guy but Jesus and the Snake were on the same team etc. These are all numerically small now and are off the beaten path. But even including such groups, it should still be possible to state a couple of positions which are in some sense true for most of the members of "Abrahamic religions". No? Gilberto: > >>And then there is a sense in which I would say Islam is true and other > >>religions are less true, but I would be willing to concede that I'm > >>operating from a particular paradigm and that at the end of things when we > >>hopefully can see things more clearly we'll all be able to laugh and say > >>"Oh, so THAT's what an elephant looks like"<< Mark: > What I would suggest is that each religion presents us with a new elephant. >
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Dear Kazeh, Wow, that was again alot of content. Could I ask you a small favor? Would it be possible to cut-and-paste less, especially if you are not going to thoroughly discuss something and intersperse comments? In this last letter it was hard to tell what was the new material and what was the old. On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:53:49 -, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: . > http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith > _dialogue.htm > The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven Valleys > of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane... > And God willing He will one day see that Face too. My only response would be if that's actually true, then it suggests that perhaps many of the deep insights which are found in the Bahai writings were already there in the Quran, in hadith, in the writings of Sufis and the Islamic philosophical tradition. And so from a certain perspective, nothing is really missing. Peace GIlberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Khazeh, At 01:53 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>Baha'u'llah's Writings please I beg you read: >>http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/basit.html<< One portion reads: "Two stations can be observed in the Divine Unity: Existential Oneness (tawhíd-i wujudí), and this is that [station] wherein all things are negated with a 'no' and only the Absolute Reality is affirmed. This means the existence of nothing is acknowledged except the Absolute Reality, in the sense that all things, when compared with Its manifestation and remembrance, have been and will continue to be absolute nothingness (fana-yi mahd)." IMO, that is a good example of establishing a revelational paradigm and interpreting various doctrines in that context. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 01:38 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>Especially given the other kinds of differences which Bahais seek to try to >>reconcile, could it be the distinction you are trying to make here is more >>along the lines of Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to?<< However, your premise is incorrect. Accents can only be evaluated in the context of geography. The correctness of one is not negated by the correctness of the other. Similarly, not all Baha'is seek to reconcile differences. If one assumes that "truths" can only be evaluated in the context of a particular divine Revelation, or paradigm, such attempts at reconciliation would be pointless. >>I just meant to suggest the possibility that God let's us see according to >>our own paradigms.<< I would say that is more than a possibility. Doesn't the diversity of conceptions make it true by definition? >>That religious diversity is ordained in some sense. There is an interesting >>hadith where God says "I am as My servant thinks I am".<< As a sociologist of religion, I respect religious diversity. However, I have no desire to see Baha'i views imposed on the doctrines of other religions, and to then call it "diversity." >>I think there is a level where I think all religions (except for maybe the >>Hale-Bopp followin'-poison-kool-aid-drinking-gun-stockpilin' death cults) >>are all positve in that they all tend to reinforce and affirm the basic >>minimal standards of Earthling morality.<< Minimal standards are subjective, and much depends on which religious movements would be included in one's definition. The problem with broad, generalizing statements is that they tend to simple restatements, or projections, of the views of the speaker or writer. For instance, if I were to point out religions which conflict with other religions on certain moral issues, someone could come back and reject them as "religions" or argue that the ethical differences are not significant. >>And then in some narrower sense, the Abrahamic religions have alot more >>common ground.<< Which branches of the Abrahamic religions? >>And then there is a sense in which I would say Islam is true and other >>religions are less true, but I would be willing to concede that I'm operating >>from a particular paradigm and that at the end of things when we hopefully >>can see things more clearly we'll all be able to laugh and say "Oh, so THAT's >>what an elephant looks like"<< What I would suggest is that each religion presents us with a new elephant. Spiritual "blindness" can only be evaluated in relation to it. >>I'm talking about religious matters now. Spirituality, theology.<< However, what does it mean to discuss "religious matters"? In effect, one is discussing movements which conform to one's definition. >>Yes, so that would be a decent example of what I"m talking about. The >>civilizational/cultural split seems is rather salient even in the "same" >>religion.<< In the Buddhisms, the Sino-Japanese variants are syncretisms are the Buddha Dharma with teachings from Taoism and Confucianism. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Spring boarding from: > >>"The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective"<< http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith _dialogue.htm Dear Gilberto I was thinking of the Name GERBERT as well as Gilberto tonight Gerbert studied in Islamic Universities in Spain and later became Pope Sylvester the IInd *** The Muslim State of Spain had cultivated a great civilization and a high degree of culture. Its well planned cities and well organised public works including the well laid out streets, parks, schools, colleges and hospitals made it a model State in the West whose phenomenal cultural, industrial and social progress was viewed with wonder by the Christian visitor. The Moors had introduced beneficial irrigation systems and new crops in Spain. The high class fabrics manufactured in their textile factories were used in the Royal Houses of Europe. Cordova, the Capital of Moorish Spain was the most cultured city of Europe. With its 113,000 houses, 21 suburbs, seventy big libraries and numerous colleges, mosques, palaces, parks and gardens it had acquired international reputation. With its well-illuminated streets, Cordova provided a striking contrast to the European cities and according to John William Draper, "Seven hundred years after this time there was not so much as one public lamp in London... In Paris, centuries subsequently, whoever stepped over his threshold on a rainy day stepped up to his ankles in mud".' When the student of the University of Oxford abhorred baths as heathen custom the Moors enjoyed baths in luxurious establishments. Whenever the Christian rulers of European States needed an artist, physician or technical hand, they applied to the Cordova Government. "The fame of the Muslim Capital penetrated as far as the distant Germany where a Saxon nun (Hrosvitha) styled it as 'The Jewel of the World'.' The great social and cultural progress of Cordova inspired awe and admiration in the hearts of European travellers" The Muslims of Spain had taken long strides in almost all branches of knowledge and had evolved an educational system which embraced all sciences and arts. A large number of educational institutions had sprung up in the four corners of the State including in Cordova, Granada, Toledo and Seville, where learned teachers imparted lessons in the sciences and arts. These Islamic institutions of Muslim Spain and Sicily were the cradle of modern European civilization and the training ground of persons like Roger Bacon and Gerbert Aurillec who ultimately paved the way for the renaissance of Mediaeval Europe. The Christian students enjoyed absolute religious tolerance and complete social freedom in Muslim Spain, which attracted large number of Christian students from all parts of Europe, who after completing their studies in Moorish Schools went back to their native places and taught new theories to astonished people. "From all parts of Europe", says Robert Briffault, "numerous students betook themselves to the great Arab seats of learning in the search of light which only there was to be found. Alvaro, a Cordovan Bishop, writes in the 9th century A.D. 'All the young Christians who distinguished themselves by their talent, know the language and literature of the Arabs, read and study passionately the Arab books, gather at great expense great libraries of these, and everywhere proclaim with loud voice how admirable is that literature'."' The celebrated Gerbert of Aurillec who studied in Moorish school, brought from Spain some rudiments of astronomy and mathematics, and taught his astonished peoples from terrestrial and celestial globes. HIS GREAT KNOWLEDGE WHICH IN THE WORD OF WILLIAM OF MALMESBURY WAS 'STOLEN FROM THE SARACEN', HAD MADE HIM AS POPE SYLVESTER II. *** The bit about the Oxford University student and baths I testify too as I was at that Alma mater 12 years... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:18:00 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Springboarding from: > >>"The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective"<< http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm > "Before substantiating this conception of essential religion or religion as > such by citing > particular Qur'anic verses, it is important to mention very > briefly the Qur'anic encounter > between Moses and the mysterious personage > al-Khidr, not mentioned by name in the > Qur'an. Even in its literal aspect, > the story alludes to the distinction between the form > of religion and its > transcendent essence, between exoteric and esoteric knowledge." Mark: > IMO, that "transcendental essence" is God, as manifested in His Will, not an > ontological perennialism. Gilberto: Especially given the other kinds of differences which Bahais seek to try to reconcile, could it be the distinction you are trying to make here is more along the lines of Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to? Gilberto: > >>Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I > >>think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing > >>simultaneously.<< Mark: > That may be an accurate picture of the Baha'i "Golden Age," as well (or at > least a certain stage of it). However, since this subject is not, to my > knowledge, clearly discussed in the Baha'i primary sources, I try not to > limit my speculations. Gilberto: When I said "co-existing" I didn't mean to imply anything about the quality or nature of the relation between them. Crusades and witchhunts are also included in "co-existing". I just meant to suggest the possibility that God let's us see according to our own paradigms. That religious diversity is ordained in some sense. There is an interesting hadith where God says "I am as My servant thinks I am". I think there is a level where I think all religions (except for maybe the Hale-Bopp followin'-poison-kool-aid-drinking-gun-stockpilin' death cults) are all positve in that they all tend to reinforce and affirm the basic minimal standards of Earthling morality. And then in some narrower sense, the Abrahamic religions have alot more common ground. And then there is a sense in which I would say Islam is true and other religions are less true, but I would be willing to concede that I'm operating from a particular paradigm and that at the end of things when we hopefully can see things more clearly we'll all be able to laugh and say "Oh, so THAT's what an elephant looks like" Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed." (5:48). GIlberto: > >>So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different > >>groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. > >>I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least > >>not the political implications) but I think that the gulf between > >>civilizations can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the > >>same civilization.<< Mark: > Often? I am not sure. I would say sometimes. Gilberto: I'm talking about religious matters now. Spirituality, theology. > >>And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of > >>Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual > >>foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a > >>real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still > >>meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of > >>one hand clapping, if that made any sense.<< Mark: > Zen koans are a good example of why many people, myself included, have always > found the Sino-Japanese versions of Buddhism (which are also syncretistic as > you imply), to be unnerving. I find the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions much > more intelligible. Yes, so that would be a decent example of what I"m talking about. The civilizational/cultural split seems is rather salient even in the "same" religion. Peace Gilberto [nice story] A while back, someone wrote the following to me: > > "The Sino-Japanese tradition has the habit of 'collapsing' all things into > one thing. Therefore in Zen, for example, meditation is all This same > trend is seen in the idea that all that is necessary is to recite the Lotus > sutra, Nicheren, or in, Pure Land, to recite the Nambutsu or even dispense > with that for total surrender in faith to Amida Buddha. This sort of thing > does not amuse the Indo-Tibetan Tradition, nor do they understand it because > it is contrary to what Sakyamunibuddha taught, and contrary to the long > unbroken tradition of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism that is an uninterrupted > continuation of the Buddhasakyamuni's awakening. In this tradition, Buddhism > is a path that begins witf elementary insights and practices at a basic level, > then, having done that, one procee
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Verily We sent Messengers before thee; among them are those about whom We have told thee, and those about whom We have not told thee. (40:78). And We sent no Messenger before thee but We inspired him [saying]: There is no God save Me, so worship Me. (21:25). Naught is said unto thee [Muhammad] but what was said unto the Messengers before thee. (41:43). Diversity of Ways is Divinely Willed The conception of this essential religion or religion as such, far from obliterating differences between religions, actually presupposes formal religious diversity, regarding it not so much as a regrettable differentiation but a divinely willed necessity. The following verses uphold this calibrated conception which recognises the inner substance of religion inherent in all revealed religions, on the one hand, and affirms the necessity of abiding by the dictates of one particular religion, on the other. For each We have appointed from you a Law and a Way (shiratan wa minhajan). Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But that He might try you by that which He hath given you [He hath made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed. (5:48). Unto each community We have given sacred rites (mansakan) which they are to perform; so let them not dispute with thee about the matter, but summon them unto thy Lord. (22:67). ... And they say: None entereth paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof if ye are truthful. Nay, but whosoever submitteth his purpose to God and he is virtuous, then his reward is with his Lord; no fear shall come upon them, and neither shall they grieve. (2:111-112). This verse comes as a concrete rebuttal of unwarranted exclusivism. It does not contradict the exclusivist claims of the Jews and the Christians with an exclusivism of its own, that is, with a claim that only Muslims, in the specific sense, go to paradise. Access to salvation, far from being further narrowed by reference to the privileged rights of some other group, is broadened, and in fact universalised: those who attain salvation and enter paradise are those who have submitted wholeheartedly to God and are intrinsically virtuous. Faith allied to virtue: such are the two indispensable requisites for salvation. Thus, it is perfectly justified to argue that the verse does not respond in kind to the exclusivism of the People of the Book, but rather, pitches the response on a completely different level, a supra-theological or metaphysical level, which surpasses all reified definitions, confessional denominations, communal allegiances and partisan affiliations. This supra-confessional conception is further strengthened by the following verses: It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor the desires of the People of the Scripture. He who doth wrong will have the recompense thereof, and will not find apart from God any protecting friend or helper. And whoso doeth good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such will enter paradise, and will not be wronged the dint of a date-stone. Who is better in religion than he who submitteth his purpose to God (aslama wajhahu lillah), while being virtuous, and following the religious community of Abraham the upright?... (4:124-125). ... Beware of Restricting God to Ones Own Beliefs Thus, Ibn Arabis well-known warning against restricting God to the form of ones own belief is entirely in accordance with the thrust of this Quranic discourse: Beware of being bound up by a particular creed and rejecting others as unbelief! Try to make yourself a prime matter for all forms of religious belief. God is greater and wider than to be confined to one particular creed to the exclusion of others. For He says, To whichever direction you turn, there is the face of God. The Doctrine of Abrogation ... ... And finally: Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and hold discourse with them in the finest manner. (XVI: 125). .. Emphasising That Which Unites ... http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith _dialogue.htm The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane... And God willing He will one day see that Face too. With kind regards khazeh -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster Sent: 12 December 2004 17:18 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Gilberto, At 09:45 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time and date make a big difference is ITSELF part of the Bahai paradigm but there a
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
I wrote: >>However, since this subject is not, to my knowledge, clearly discussed in the >>Baha'i primary sources, I try not to limit my speculations.<< That should be, "I try to limit my speculations." Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 09:45 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as >>paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time and date >>make a big difference is ITSELF part of the Bahai paradigm but there are >>others.<< In order for religions to progressively elevate souls, on the individual level, and societies, on the level of structurization or construction, they must reflect God's Will for a particular time period and, perhaps, location. However, I would rather leave the question of *progression* to God and instead focus on the pragmatism of paradigms. Spiritually, one surrenders to God and His revealed Will in a particular age irrespective of whether one regards it as a progression. >>"The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective"<< Well, the article is obviously written according to the writer's understanding of the Great Shaykh's standpoint. For instance, he focuses on a theology divine Immanence which some critics have contended is pantheism (a view others, in fairness, have challenged): "The Face of God which alone subsists is not only the transcendent, divine essence, in relation to which all things are nothing; it is also the immanent presence which pervades and encompasses all things, constituting in fact their true being." http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm IMO, God transcendent, not immanent. "Creation," a category (not a reality), does not manifest, or reveal, God. Rather, as a particular painting expresses the will of the artist, each created thing emanates from God's Will. Each of our existences is dependent, not necessary. >>What I like about is that it articulates ideas similar to perennialism while >>rooting them very much in the Quran and the Sufi philosophical tradition.<< That is clearly the writer's viewpoint: "Before substantiating this conception of essential religion or religion as such by citing particular Quranic verses, it is important to mention very briefly the Quranic encounter between Moses and the mysterious personage al-Khidr, not mentioned by name in the Quran. Even in its literal aspect, the story alludes to the distinction between the form of religion and its transcendent essence, between exoteric and esoteric knowledge." IMO, that "transcendental essence" is God, as manifested in His Will, not an ontological perennialism. >>Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I think >>the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing simultaneously.<< That may be an accurate picture of the Baha'i "Golden Age," as well (or at least a certain stage of it). However, since this subject is not, to my knowledge, clearly discussed in the Baha'i primary sources, I try not to limit my speculations. >>So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different >>groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. I'm >>not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least not >>the political implications) but I think that the gulf between civilizations >>can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the same >>civilization.<< Often? I am not sure. I would say sometimes. >>And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of >>Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual >>foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a >>real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still >>meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of >>one hand clapping, if that made any sense.<< Zen koans are a good example of why many people, myself included, have always found the Sino-Japanese versions of Buddhism (which are also syncretistic as you imply), to be unnerving. I find the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions much more intelligible. A while back, someone wrote the following to me: "The Sino-Japanese tradition has the habit of 'collapsing' all things into one thing. Therefore in Zen, for example, meditation is all This same trend is seen in the idea that all that is necessary is to recite the Lotus sutra, Nicheren, or in, Pure Land, to recite the Nambutsu or even dispense with that for total surrender in faith to Amida Buddha. This sort of thing does not amuse the Indo-Tibetan Tradition, nor do they understand it because it is contrary to what Sakyamunibuddha taught, and contrary to the long unbroken tradition of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism that is an uninterrupted continuation of the Buddhasakyamunis awakening. In this tradition, Buddhism is a path that begins witf elementary insights and practices at a basic level, then, having done that, one proceeds to the next level. Nothing is neglected and in this tradition the intellect is understood to be a major component/tool of the pa
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
is evident that the reason for such behaviour is none other than the annulment of those rules, customs, habits, and ceremonials to which they have been subjected. Otherwise, were the Beauty of the Merciful to comply with those same rules and customs, which are current amongst the people, and were He to sanction their observances, such conflict and mischief would in no wise be made manifest in the world. This exalted tradition is attested and substantiated by these words which He hath revealed: "The day when the Summoner shall summon to a stern business." (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 238-239) As for ‘ilm of H.adith [knowledge of H.adith] I DO ADMIRE YOU ON THIS AND WE COULD LEARN FROM YOU [Gilberto Simpson] ON THIS LIST http://members.cox.net/arshad/azmihad.html HADITH: RULES FOR ACCEPTANCE AND TRANSMISSION But again for my own soul I look to this Utterance in the start of the Iqan The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4) . Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of divine Revelation and the evidences of an everlasting manifestation. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 196) inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. So do not worry about this one or that one [when you mention the name of a particular scholar God rest his soul [rah.imahu-Allah] Gilberto Simpson Sent: 12 December 2004 16:10 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Dear Khazeh Wow, thanks for all that info. That's a lot of content. Let me just respond to a few things: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:17:19 -, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and > ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated. POINT ONE] And that sounds nice, but in certain respects it falls short. > All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as > well. > But of course there are many perceptions of "Islam" in the world...and all > issues have been obfuscated because of "Islamism" or Qut.bism as > ideologies. POINT TWO] To be honest I've never understood what "Islamism" is. I think it's a made up term but I'm not sure there is a coherent consistent concept underneath. ... POINT THREE] Something else to realize is that the Quran itself is not unlike the hadith. The Quran was transmitted to subsequent generations by the companions who witnessed Muhammad while he was reciting the verses of the Quran. And although some of it was written down on different objects and surfaces, some of it was preserved mainly in memory. And the same mechanism we get Quran from is the same mechanism we get the hadith from. (In fact, some hadith have about as many witnesses and transmitters as some parts of the Quran) And if you trust someone enough to lend them $500 then you should trust them enough to lend them $5. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archi
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Dear Khazeh Wow, thanks for all that info. That's alot of content. Let me just respond to a few things: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:17:19 -, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and > ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated. And that sounds nice, but in certain respects it falls short. > All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as > well. > But of course there are many perceptions of "Islam" in the world...and all > issues have been obfuscated because of "Islamism" or Qut.bism as > ideologies. To be honest I've never understood what "Islamism" is. I think it's a made up term but I'm not sure there is a coherent consistent concept underneath. Muslims are supposed to live out their faith and positively influence the society around them, in the "religious" sphere, but also in culture, business, family life, the local neighborhood, and other levels. But I've never heard a good explanation of what the difference is between a serious Muslim who promotes Islam in the world, and an "Islamist". > Of course there are many discussions within the Islamic community about > "corruption" of Hadith. Interestingly the Sacred Iqan of Baha'u'llah also > quotes the same verses > http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html > Actually there is a serious question of whether this group should be thought of as "within" the Islamic community. This position that hadith are generally corrupt and unreliable was popularized by Rashid Khalifa. And he didn't stop by getting rid of hadith but he also had this mathematical scheme which he used to start excluding verses from the Quran as well. And then some time either before or after that he declared himself to be a prophet. Something else to realize is that the Quran itself is not unlike the hadith. The Quran was transmitted to subsequent generations by the companions who witnessed Muhammad while he was reciting the verses of the Quran. And although some of it was written down on different objects and surfaces, some of it was preserved mainly in memory. And the same mechanism we get Quran from is the same mechanism we get the hadith from. (In fact, some hadith have about as many witnesses and transmitters as some parts of the Quran) And if you trust someone enough to lend them $500 then you should trust them enough to lend them $5. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:07:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > >>And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a > >>positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.<< Mark: > No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They > are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., > the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as > truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an > earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Gilberto: I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time and date make a big difference is ITSELF part of the Bahai paradigm but there are others. One paper I found which I like on this subject is: called "The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective" and is available at: http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm What I like about is that it articulates ideas similar to perennialism while rooting them very much in the Quran and the Sufi philosophical tradition. Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing simultaneously. "For each We have appointed from you a Law and a Way (shir'atan wa minhajan). Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But that He might try you by that which He hath given you [He hath made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed." (5:48). So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least not the political implications) but I think that the gulf between civilizations can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the same civilization. And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of one hand clapping, if that made any sense. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
er to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their FABRICATIONS. This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such FABRICATIONS, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions. [6:112-113] Should we believe these words of God about Hadith?!! If you do not want to, my be you should listen to these two verse; "Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord (QURAN), then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty." 32:22 from http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html >From Mark A. Foster Sent: 12 December 2004 10:08 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam Gilberto, If I might jump in ... At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true.<< Both Sunnah and Shi'ah claim to follow the legitimate successors to Muhammad. The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is established by Baha'u'llah. In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an entirely different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately reflects the words of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation establishes authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to lend, or detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be given to a tradition. >>And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.<< No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Mark A. Foster On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Our friend Gilberto wrote: > > >>There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community>> > > In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who await Him. Sure, and the Qur'án has both positive and negative statements about Jews and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or Christian in any sense, and I would want to be more open about my criticisms of those religions. Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle. One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e. Muhammad, the Qur'án, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree but doesn't really address the second question (which is fine). Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, If I might jump in ... At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true.<< Both Sunnah and Ashyaa claim to follow the legitimate successors to Muhammad. The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is established by Baha'u'llah. In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an entirely different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately reflects the words of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation establishes authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to lend, or detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be given to a tradition. >>And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a >>positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.<< No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an earlier or a later one. Truth is relative. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Our friend Gilberto wrote: > > >>There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community>> > > In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize > Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who > did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted > Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of > God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who > await Him. Sure, and the Quran has both positive and negative statements about Jews and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or Christian in any sense, and I would want to be more open about my criticisms of those religions. Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle. One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding "Islamic entities" (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam. I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree but doesn't really address the second question (which is fine). Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Khazeh, At 03:06 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>In my humble view both Mark and Brent make valid points and there is no >>difference in their agapocentric views...<< That is an interesting word - agapocentrism. I've never seen it before. Since the essay deals with Hinduism, do you mean sharing the same "bhakti" orientation? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
There is a learned and friendly discussion between the erudite Mark and the erudite Brent. I think there is no doubt that there are many people of good will who invite peoples of their own Faith to look lovingly at the "OTHER". I am particularly grateful to Mark Foster for providing this link http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305972 it raised my awareness of Hindu sensitivities to another stratosphere... and I am most appreciative of the beautiful authoritative references Brent has adduced for my learned friend Gilberto... And Mark is right that since 1893 and the Columbia Exposition of Religions in Chicago where the Name of Baha'u'llah and His Mission was mentioned by Reverend Jessup many Hindus have been kindly disposed towards Islam in the West. BUT equally there are groups and thinkers amongst them who are frightened and apprehensive * After a brief overview of History-Centrism, the main purpose of this essay will be to explain the problems that Hinduism is facing because of #2, i.e., the false myth that it is the same as other religions. I shall show that the Sameness Myth suffers from at least three problems: Sameness with all other religions is incompatible with authentic Hindu dharma. Sameness is making Hinduism irrelevant and redundant. It is sliding Hinduism towards extinction by dilution and assimilation, in the same manner as Christianity's inculturation strategy made many pagan religions extinct. It positions Hinduism as a takeover target by History-Centric predators, with a friendly takeover of some components and a hostile takeover and/or outright cultural genocide of other components. In the aftermath of such takeovers the predators become stronger and the world less safe. Hence, sameness can at best be a short-term alternative and antidote to History-Centrism but it leads to unstable states of power that eventually feed more History-Centrism. The opposite of sameness is difference. Many scholars have considered 'difference' to be the source of tensions and violence. Hence, they promote the sameness myth. However, this is a European view based on their experience with Abrahamic religions that are History-Centric. This view does not apply to non-European cultures such as the Indic traditions that have a worldview of difference-with-respect. Difference-with-respect is an attitude that is practically unachievable through History-Centric religions, except in the form of artificial political correctness commonly referred to as 'tolerance'. My thesis of difference-with-respect is at odds with both #1 and #2 poles above. Furthermore, each pole's frenzy feeds the other: Moderate Hindus recoiling against religious violence have tended to gravitate towards sameness in order to dilute their distinct identities, and hence absolve themselves of 'Hindu shame'. Conversely, many Hindus who are concerned about the way the Sameness Myth deconstructs (and eventually destructs) their faiths have jumped on the History-Centrism bandwagon for identity protection, in the form of Hindutva. The following factors have contributed to the Sameness Myth: U-Turns and American Perennialism: Historically, sameness emerged out of 19th century neo-Hindu leaders' constructions of Hinduism that often mapped Indic categories on to Western ones[1]. For instance, Swami Vivekananda successfully popularized Hinduism in 19th century America. But later, many of his important Western disciples and sympathizers genericized Hinduism. Several of them eventually did U-Turns back into Western identity and Western thought. Perennialism and the New Age movement were by-products of such movements[2]. Meanwhile, the mainstream History-Centric Christianity did not dissolve itself or melt itself into sameness, but, on the contrary, it strengthened its positioning by appropriating from Hinduism. Opportunistic Hindu gurus: The Sameness Myth took a quantum leap in the 1960s when many Hindu gurus arrived in America. They attracted huge followings and piled up vast donations by playing the sameness game to appeal to the pop culture at the expense of authenticity. They lowered the bar for Westerners to enter into pop Hinduism, but this also lowered the bar to their exit once the fad had died and once enough components from Hinduism had been successfully appropriated into Western systems. (See details.[3]) Postmodernist intellectualism: Postmodernism is the academic equivalent of pop Vedanta as an intellectual framework to deconstruct identity. (While Vedanta deconstructs the individual ego, postmodernism mainly deconstructs the collective cultural identity.) It has intellectually disaggregated Hinduism into a library of random clip art that may be clicked-and-dragged into any belief system under the control and discretion of the new owner. (For instance, postmodernist frameworks allow scholars such as Courtright to misinterpret Hindu symbols arbitrarily, and to sell their works successfully at the highe
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Brent, At 12:16 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>... in terms of raw numbers, I feel that the Baha'i Faith has touched more >>people worldwide than all of those movements combined.<< Personally, I am not sure. The Vedanta Society of Swami Vivekananda, which regards Muhammad as an Avatar, has had a powerful influence in India. Vivekananda's historical construction of Sri Ramakrishna as the avatar of the age has, probably more than any other movement, changed the definition of "Hinduism" (Santana Dharma) in the minds of many Indians, especially (but not exclusively) educated ones, from a religion of many particularized sects to a universal religion. (The Theosophical Society has also played a role in this process.) I posted a link to an article a few weeks ago which focused on this subject. The author, a Hindu, was very critical of this reconstruction of Hinduism, and he felt that it might eventually result in the increasingly irrelevancy of his religion. >>the Baha'i Teachings which laud Muhammad and the Qur'an have reached ears >>those groups have not succeeded in reaching, have been seen as more credible >>than those groups, have certainly made more inroads into the Christian West >>than any other group, as regards improving people's attitudes towards Islam >>as a divine Revelation.<< Again, I am not sure. The Theosophical Society, and its offshoots, and the Vedanta Society laid the foundation for the New Age movement, and many new agers also regard Muhammad as an Avatar or perfect master. There are many more self-identified new agers in the U.S., and in some other countries (especially the UK), than Baha'is. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Brent wrote: >>Find me another non-Muslim group in this world where the people have Qur'ans >>on their shelves and read it, where Islam is a sacred word on their lips, >>where they place Muhammad as an equal Prophet.<< Mark Foster replied: "There are several, including the Meher Baba movement, the Vedanta Society, the Golden Age movement, and Sahaja Yoga. ;-) " OK. Let me re-phrase. First, in terms of raw numbers, I feel that the Baha'i Faith has touched more people worldwide than all of those movements combined. Secondly, the Baha'i Teachings which laud Muhammad and the Qur'an have reached ears those groups have not succeeded in reaching, have been seen as more credible than those groups, have certainly made more inroads into the Christian West than any other group, as regards improving people's attitudes towards Islam as a divine Revelation. How's that ? Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Our friend Gilberto wrote: >>There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community>> In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted Their followers. It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who await Him. Furthermore, the Baha'i Writings are only stating what Muhammad Himself stated about some of His own followers in this Day. These are Hadith that are found on Muslim websites and viewed as authentic, quoted in Shoghi Effendi's book "The Promised Day is Come": "A day shall be witnessed by My people," their own traditions condemn them, "whereon there will have remained of Islam naught but a name, and of the Qur'án naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them it will recoil." And again: "Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.'" And still again: "At that hour His malediction shall descend upon you, and your curse shall afflict you, and your religion shall remain an empty word on your tongues. And when these signs appear amongst you, anticipate the day when the red-hot wind will have swept over you, or the day when ye will have been disfigured, or when stones will have rained upon you." (The Promised Day is Come, p. 99) >>the claim that the validity of the Islamic dispensation has been abrogated>> We believe it is a fundamental reality of the greatest importance to realize, that every succeeding Prophet has the authority to abrogate the laws of previous Prophets. The Baha'i Revelation is not exempt from this, because the Prophet Who succeeds Baha'u'llah "may abrogate the laws of this Dispensation." (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 61) Abrogation of His laws in a succeeding Dispensation is not a discredit to any Prophet, for the wholesome medicine God sent for the needs of a previous millennium, may not be as perfect as that He sends at a later time; and again, He may re-establish an earlier law at a later time. Shoghi Effendi also wrote: "There are many authorised traditions from Muhammad stating clearly (as explained in the Íqán) that the promised Qá'im would bring a new Book and new Laws. In other words abrogating the law of Islam." (The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 426) >>there are certainly many Bahais who have argued that Islam is unsuitable for >>the modern age, compared it to poison even>> While some aspects of Islam are not the remedy for today's needs (some are), I have not, in 34 years of being a Baha'i, heard a single one compare any Divine Revelation including that of the Prophet Muhammad's to poison. I think that would be a shameful act, to speak so disrespectfully of the Holy Word. >>The Quran is on the lips, but the hadith are discarded.>> The Hadith are not discarded; in the Baha'i Dispensation they are relegated to a subordinate station to the Revealed Word. I think this is because in Islam the Hadith, even the contradictory ones and those of weak lineage and authenticity, are all viewed as being as binding as the Word itself. To rectify this over-emphasis, Baha'u'llah has modified their role. They are not to be suppressed, but in His Dispensation traditions do not possess authority. Obviously, the Islamic Hadith are not wholesale rejected; there are a multitude of quotations from them in Baha'i literature. They are described as "holy utterances" (Gleanings p 186) and are quoted extensively in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf and in the Iqan. >>The prophet and the imams are praised. But the principles of the scholars who succeeded them are rejected.>> The Prophet and the Imams are indeed praised to the highest heavens: "References in the Bible to "Mt. Paran" and "Paraclete" refer to Muhammad's Revelation. Deuteronomy 33.2; Genesis 21.21.; Numbers 12.16; Numbers 13.3.; Genesis 17.20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John, Chap. 11.; where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and Ali." (Shoghi Effendi, Letters from the Guardian to Australia and New Zealand, p. 41) And likewise in the sacred verse: 'Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among you invested with authority.' By 'those invested with authority' is meant primarily and more specially the Imams -- the blessings of God rest upon them. They verily are the manifestations of the power of God and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments. (Baha'u'llah, quoted in The Promised Day is Come, p. 72) "The guid
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 09:53 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Oh and to add to Mark's list of non-Muslim religions which has positive >>things to say about Islam is Cao Dai.<< Yes, and there are many, many others, including the various branches of the Radhasoami movement. I have a collection of links to Cao Dai sites here: http://links.religionsnet.com/caodai.html Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:16:57 -, Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Baha'i Writings are not killing Islam with kindness. The statements > praising Muhammad and the Holy Qurïan are heartfelt. I think the picture is complicated. I appreciate that there are many positive and specific statements about Islam, the Quran and Muhammad in the Bahai writings. There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community, the claim that the validity of the Islamic dispensation has been abrogated, and I'm not sure to what degree this is put in the writings but there are certainly many Bahais who have argued that Islam is unsuitable for the modern age, compared it to poison even. The Quran is on the lips, but the hadith are discarded. The prophet and the imams are praised. But the principles of the scholars who succeeded them are rejected. Don't get me wrong. I don't think of this as personal to you necessarily. I don't think you mean to harm Muslims, but as a movement it seems like the Bahai faith would seek to co-opt Islam. And if you don't particularly want to get co-opted then this is a bad thing. Oh and to add to Mark's list of non-Muslim religions which has positive things to say about Islam is Cao Dai. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Brent, At 08:16 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Find me another non-Muslim group in this world where the people have Qur'ans >>on their shelves and read it, where Islam is a sacred word on their lips, >>where they place Muhammad as an equal Prophet.<< There are several, including the Meher Baba movement, the Vedanta Society, the Golden Age movement, and Sahaja Yoga. ;-) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
The Baha'i Praises of Islam
The Baha'i Writings are not killing Islam with kindness. The statements praising Muhammad and the Holy Qur’an are heartfelt. The Baha'i Faith has succeeded in turning millions of people worldwide into admirers of the Prophet and the Book of Islam, where Muslims themselves have not succeeded. I myself was raised a Catholic, and believed all the way through college that Muhammad was a false Prophet. After becoming a Baha'i I came to believe in the divine origin of Islam solely because Baha'u'llah said so, and later, was able to look at Islam on its own terms without the veils I had inherited from my Western upbringing. This is *very* common among Baha'is. Find me another non-Muslim group in this world where the people have Qur'ans on their shelves and read it, where Islam is a sacred word on their lips, where they place Muhammad as an equal Prophet. Here is the explanation of Shoghi Effendi on this subject: "As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islam, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Bab, the descendant of the Imam Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabil's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imams, and the Book of Islam; the glowing tributes paid by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imam Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by 'Abdu'l-Baha, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of 'Abdu'l-Baha, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad -- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Baha'i Faith towards its parent religion. "God," is her royal tribute, "is All, everything. He is the power behind all beginnings His is the Voice within us that shows us good and evil. But mostly we ignore or misunderstand this voice. Therefore, did He choose His Elect to come down amongst us upon earth to make clear His Word, His real meaning. Therefore, the Prophets; therefore, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, for man needs from time to time a voice upon earth to bring God to him, to sharpen the realization of the existence of the true God. Those voices sent to us had to become flesh, so that with our earthly ears we should be able to hear and understand." (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 109) I ask you to consider carefully the position of Abdu'l-Baha in 1912 when He came to America. He was invited to the pulpits of churches and synagogues, and when He did -- He spoke to them of Muhammad! He promoted unity among the followers of all Faiths, showing that these Prophets and Their Holy Books all came from one source. So many wars on this earth are because the followers of the Divine Revelations have an exclusive approach to their Faith. That is why the title He chose for his published collection of addresses in the West is titled "The Promulgation of Universal Peace." That is why that same Book is today a healing salve in a world racked by wars waged in the name of religion. He showed that Moses promised Christ, and Christ promised Muhammad, and all of them promised the Bab and Baha'u'llah. One of the fruits of these addresses was that Queen Marie, in her open letters published in newspapers all over Canada and the USA in the 1920's spoke of all of these Prophets as on the same plane. Demonstrate `adl and `insaf, and admit that the Baha'i Faith has been for a century and a half a promoter and friend of Islam. God knows that in today's world, Islam needs its friends. But, I do not expect that you will praise it. You have the same veils I had when I was a Catholic, when I believed that the Messiah would come on a literal cloud, with a literal sword in His mouth, accompanied by the sound of a literal trumpet, and all people with their literal outward eyes would see Him. If you want your life to count for something important, search out the Book of Certitude, and also the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, both of which are addressed to Muslims. Please the Prophet Muhammad by recognizing the Bab and Baha'u'llah as having been promised by Him. Brent Poirier __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAI
