RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Warren Ockrassa asked: Isn't it Australia were Jedi is recognized as a legitimate religion by the government? I dunno about that, but it was the UK where more than 50% of the respondents claimed 'Jedi' as their religion during the last census. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Ritu said: I dunno about that, but it was the UK where more than 50% of the respondents claimed 'Jedi' as their religion during the last census. Not quite: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm Rich, who should've listed Sith ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Rich wrote: I dunno about that, but it was the UK where more than 50% of the respondents claimed 'Jedi' as their religion during the last census. Not quite: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm Rich, who should've listed Sith My figures were way off the mark... Thanks. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter rudely contributed: * Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: wrong? Or is it just possible that the information we're giving you -- that you're curt at best, rude at least, and arrogant at worst online -- might in fact be completely true? Has it occurred to you that I don't care one whit about your opinion since I have absolutely zero respect for you based on the absurd things that you post? You literally have not posted one thing that I consider worthwhile reading. So call me rude all you want. Knock yourself out. I could not care less what you do or write. A comment with which Erik proved Warren's point far beyond any reasonable doubt. Erik, if Warren has posted nothing you consider worthwile reading, why do you read his posts and reply to them? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On 11 Jan 2005, at 6:28 pm, God wrote: Erik, if Warren has posted nothing you consider worthwile reading, why do you read his posts and reply to them? I surmise he sometimes succumbs to a charitable impulse to help improve his fellow man. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Our products just aren't engineered for security. - Brian Valentine, senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development team. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: Because when I su, it is frequently to configure something in /etc. And here I thought when people su-ed, they went to /court, not to /etc... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
* Nick Arnett ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: What version are you using? 0.53b haven't noticed the stuff you're describing... but then again, I'm probably just not paying attention. Probably not. I'm not sure why anyone would worry about the window title bar, since the command prompt has the same info right next to the cursor. Why look up when it is right there next to your cursor? Anyway, since my window title seems to have been distracting to several other people, you'll be glad to know that I just ticked the disable remote window title changes in PuTTY. Now it just shows 192.168.0.1 in the window title and never changes. So you don't have anything to worry about now... And I have prompts set to show me the cwd and user name, so I always have a bit of orientation to who and where I am. Of course. As I said. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Robert Seeberger spoketh: Question to religious listmembers: Are religious peoples required to killfile this particular GOD individual because of the first commandment? For the Christians: Such act would violate My updated Sixth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill(file). For all others: There is no God but Me, thus worshipping God (by any name) is worshipping Me. Or do we wait for Nick to kick God off the list because he might be Jeroen? Thou dareth equate Me with a mere mortal thou calleth Jeroen? Thou wisheth to violate My First and My Sixth Commandment? Thou really wisheth for Me to unleash My Wrath upon thee and upon the one thou calleth Nick? Inquiring minds want to know! Thou dareth anger Me by questioning the Existence of thy God? If this truly is thy wish, I have but one word for thee: EGYPT. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
God wrote: Robert Seeberger spoketh: Question to religious listmembers: Are religious peoples required to killfile this particular GOD individual because of the first commandment? For the Christians: Such act would violate My updated Sixth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill(file). For all others: There is no God but Me, thus worshipping God (by any name) is worshipping Me. Or do we wait for Nick to kick God off the list because he might be Jeroen? Thou dareth equate Me with a mere mortal thou calleth Jeroen? Thou wisheth to violate My First and My Sixth Commandment? Thou really wisheth for Me to unleash My Wrath upon thee and upon the one thou calleth Nick? Inquiring minds want to know! Thou dareth anger Me by questioning the Existence of thy God? If this truly is thy wish, I have but one word for thee: EGYPT. If thou werest truely God, Thou wouldst be able to communicate in the modern f*cking vernacular. xponent Love Always Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Jan 10, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote: If thou werest truely God, Thou wouldst be able to communicate in the modern f*cking vernacular. Actually, you'd think the deity would be able to produce a simplified, unambiguous language that was easy to learn. Hmm, perhaps god speaks Esperanto. ;) -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:53 AM, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:33:14PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: I also think it's rude to offer advice on a topic and, when asked for further information, to behave as though you've been massively inconvenienced, your attention diverted from other matters of much greater moment than continuing a discussion in which you did not, strictly speaking, have to participate from the beginning. You are rather prone to exaggeration, aren't you? If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. I never exaggerate. Not even a little bit. (Which response do *you* believe is the greater waste of time? Do you have a keystroke counter? Yours, mostly -- just about everything you write, in fact. Erik, has it struck you as peculiar yet that you have several different people telling you precisely the same thing about yourself? Are we all wrong? Or is it just possible that the information we're giving you -- that you're curt at best, rude at least, and arrogant at worst online -- might in fact be completely true? -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Jan 10, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jan 10, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote: If thou werest truely God, Thou wouldst be able to communicate in the modern f*cking vernacular. Actually, you'd think the deity would be able to produce a simplified, unambiguous language that was easy to learn. Perhaps the deity does, and we just haven't recognized it as a language. Hmm, perhaps god speaks Esperanto. ;) Squanto to Toronto for Esperanto pronto! Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jan 10, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote: If thou werest truely God, Thou wouldst be able to communicate in the modern f*cking vernacular. Actually, you'd think the deity would be able to produce a simplified, unambiguous language that was easy to learn. Hmm, perhaps god speaks Esperanto. ;) How easy is Esperanto to learn by someone who's spoken nothing but Japanese up to the point of trying to learn it? And apparently Klingon is about as useful as Esperanto these days. :) IIRC, I read something about there being more speakers of Klingon in Japan than speakers of Esperanto. Julia who owns a copy of _Hamlet_ in Klingon, and who once seriously with the idea of taking an intensive course in it ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Jan 10, 2005, at 5:13 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: Hmm, perhaps god speaks Esperanto. ;) How easy is Esperanto to learn by someone who's spoken nothing but Japanese up to the point of trying to learn it? Much easier than learning English. And apparently Klingon is about as useful as Esperanto these days. :) Out by starbase 12 maybe, but here in Federation space we prefer Croat. IIRC, I read something about there being more speakers of Klingon in Japan than speakers of Esperanto. Isn't it Australia were Jedi is recognized as a legitimate religion by the government? -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
* Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: wrong? Or is it just possible that the information we're giving you -- that you're curt at best, rude at least, and arrogant at worst online -- might in fact be completely true? Has it occurred to you that I don't care one whit about your opinion since I have absolutely zero respect for you based on the absurd things that you post? You literally have not posted one thing that I consider worthwhile reading. So call me rude all you want. Knock yourself out. I could not care less what you do or write. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 10, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Erik Reuter wrote: * Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: wrong? Or is it just possible that the information we're giving you -- that you're curt at best, rude at least, and arrogant at worst online -- might in fact be completely true? Has it occurred to you that I don't care one whit about your opinion since I have absolutely zero respect for you based on the absurd things that you post? You literally have not posted one thing that I consider worthwhile reading. So call me rude all you want. Knock yourself out. I could not care less what you do or write. This begs an obvious question, doesn't it? Of course, you can always filter what I have to say ... but you're going to continue hearing about your arrogance from others, and you'll keep getting sent the messages until it sinks in once and for all, or you've filtered the planet. It's your life, your time to waste, and your problem, of course. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 10, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Erik Reuter wrote: * Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: wrong? Or is it just possible that the information we're giving you -- that you're curt at best, rude at least, and arrogant at worst online -- might in fact be completely true? Has it occurred to you that I don't care one whit about your opinion since I have absolutely zero respect for you based on the absurd things that you post? You literally have not posted one thing that I consider worthwhile reading. So call me rude all you want. Knock yourself out. I could not care less what you do or write. When I find myself denying that I care what others say about me, I consider that it might be a good time for some serious self-examination, to see if I have begun to think too much of myself. Somewhere in my forty-some years, I was taught that other people think of me is really none of my business. Sometimes, I even live like I have learned it :-). Sometimes, I stop to consider that the object of my self-righteous rant might very well feel the same about me (and my protests-too-much denial that I care about their opinion). Then it is a good time for me to think about my intentions. What am I trying to accomplish? Am I minding my own business, or am I making someone else's business mine? How well has it served me in the past to tell someone else how to live? Dave, who is wondering these things about this very message... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Monday 2005-01-10 16:46, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jan 10, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote: If thou werest truely God, Thou wouldst be able to communicate in the modern f*cking vernacular. Actually, you'd think the deity would be able to produce a simplified, unambiguous language that was easy to learn. Hmm, perhaps god speaks Esperanto. ;) Then there's that Tower of Babel story ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Rob wrote... Or do we wait for Nick to kick God off the list because he might be Jeroen? Our false god Apophis wannabe wrote... Thou dareth equate Me with a mere mortal thou calleth Jeroen? Thou wisheth to violate My First and My Sixth Commandment? Thou really wisheth for Me to unleash My Wrath upon thee and upon the one thou calleth Nick? If this is Jeroen, he must have bought a sense of humor on eBay... Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Warren wrote: It's your life, your time to waste, and your problem, of course. But of course he doesn't consider it a problem and there's not much any of us could do or say to change that. So perhaps the right way to deal with those mannerisms that we are uncomfortable with but that we can't do anything about is to either ignore them completely or to just learn to expect them and roll with them. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:33:14PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: No; I think it's rude to assume that the entire world will sit quietly at your lotus-flower feet and play rapt attention as dulcet strains of truth fall like gems from your ruby lips, carefully taking note of every jewel of absolute truth you care to condescend to deposit before our unworthy snouts. Ah, then I'm not rude by your standards. I also think it's rude to offer advice on a topic and, when asked for further information, to behave as though you've been massively inconvenienced, your attention diverted from other matters of much greater moment than continuing a discussion in which you did not, strictly speaking, have to participate from the beginning. You are rather prone to exaggeration, aren't you? (Which response do *you* believe is the greater waste of time? Do you have a keystroke counter? Yours, mostly -- just about everything you write, in fact. Periodically, I may explain myself as I have done in this thread, so that discussions may improve in the future. If it becomes clear that that won't be the case, as it has, then I tend not to reply to that person for a while until I decide to try again. Not in general. At least, I never had any ex complain. I've just observed, casually, that people who feel it necessary to behave in a consistently bully-like fashion online were usually the saddest, most tortured kids in high school. Good psychoanalytical theory. Almost as good as everything being the result of one's relationship with their mother. I'll leave you to your psychoanalysis. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Gary Nunn spoketh: I guess that we can add Email Clients to the sensitive topics list right up there with abortion, gay marriage, politics, gun control and comparisons of list members to Hitler. You forgot to include which OS is superior: Windows or MacOS or *nix? :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 06:45:44PM -0500, maru wrote: But more importantly, were you running mutt as root, you naughty person? No, that is a bug in PuTTy. And how come your cwd is etc? Just curious, though I'm tempted to bombast about how nobody belongs in etc unless they're configuring something... ;-) Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: Thunderbird manages to get threading mostly correct, but it sometimes places replies in the wrong place in the tree. It looks like the threading code is basing much of its decisions on the Subject: header, when it really should be using References: and In-Reply-To:. It also has filtering, but I haven't tried it because I want everything to stay in my inbox so I can download my mail easily. I don't use threading in Thunderbird, so I don't know about that, but... Thunderbird doesn't really make any effort to hide the fact you have multiple accounts. You can't (as far as I can tell) combine mailboxes so they act sensibly. You can't set a default signature for all accounts; you have to specify one for each account. That's not such a big deal, but one thing I really dislike about Thunderbird is that it doesn't reply using the account on which it received the mail! Thus, for various lists, I have to remember to set the return address manually. Ugh. Otherwise, I'm fairly happy with -- and I have a couple of dozen accounts, including various nntp servers, set up on it. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? What's the best thing about it? What's the worst thing about it? What OSs does it work under? Is it more mouse-dependent or can it be mostly or fully driven from the keyboard? How much would it cost for me to get a properly licensed copy? (Wanting to shop around for a new program, and no time to research, but I figure a few people will want to proclaim the superiority of the software they're using) I'm using Mozilla Thunderbird for this address now. Thanks to everyone who helped in answering my question. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 08:04:33AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 06:45:44PM -0500, maru wrote: But more importantly, were you running mutt as root, you naughty person? No, that is a bug in PuTTy. And how come your cwd is etc? Just curious, though I'm tempted to bombast about how nobody belongs in etc unless they're configuring something... ;-) Because when I su, it is frequently to configure something in /etc. And PuTTy changes the window title when I su. But it doesn't change it back when I leave su. You'll have to bombast someone else. Perhaps you could bombast the author of PuTTy, if you're so keen to bombast someone. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
God wrote: Gary Nunn spoketh: I guess that we can add Email Clients to the sensitive topics list right up there with abortion, gay marriage, politics, gun control and comparisons of list members to Hitler. You forgot to include which OS is superior: Windows or MacOS or *nix? :) I believe that some sort of *nix-based OS is best, which I believe covers MacOS. But the way things are set up here, I'm going to be using Windows until such time as I have time to get myself set up with something superior -- maybe in 5 years or so? (The youngest will be in kindergarten then, and I ought to have mornings somewhat free, at least, right?) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Thunderbird does a similar act with threading and it seems to work pretty good. Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? I was curious how threading compared on mutt, Thunderbird, and mail.app. A google turned up this post: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:IQOnx2gc2_oJ:grove.ufl.edu/~dwc/a rchives/cat_internet.html+Thunderbird+threading+mutthl=enclient=fire fox-a http://urlsnip.com/699033 [Snip stuff] Thanks Erik! Interesting stuff. The first problem I've run into with Thunderbird has to do with filters. When I D/Led Thunderbird it copied all my settings from OE accurately and replicated the enviroment I was used to reading from including the seperate folders I keep for each mailing list I sub to. This was great! I could see all my old mail in a threaded enviroment which was a strong point in Thunderbirds favor. But when I downloaded some new mail everything was thrown into the Inbox and it was quite apparent that Thunderbird did not replicate *any* of my filters whatsoever. I have a LOT of filters and quail at the thought of inputing all this stuff manually. (Laziness on my part to be honestG) So it was a bit of a mixed bag for Thunderbird. It replicated all my settings accurately and seems to possess a superior functionality overall (in comparison to OE at least). The downside was that it didn't replicate my filters (which I find problematic since the filtering scheme for Thunderbird appears to be quite similar to that of OE and which makes me wonder why that particular function wasn't included). Realistically, Thunderbird seems to be designed to replace OE and does a good job at that for basic users, but the more advanced a user is the more difficulties one may find during the changeover period. (Hopefully someone here knows about something I missed, and I am just plain wrong about the filters. This would improve my opinion of Thunderbird considerably, even in light of the problems Erik has uncovered. ) Thunderbird quite plainly has better functionality than OE. Though I am still likely to continue to use OE for a while. At least until I can find out what MS is going to do to improve OE if indeed there are any such plans at all in the offing. xponent Ch Ch Ch Changes Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
God wrote: Gary Nunn spoketh: I guess that we can add Email Clients to the sensitive topics list right up there with abortion, gay marriage, politics, gun control and comparisons of list members to Hitler. You forgot to include which OS is superior: Windows or MacOS or *nix? :) Question to religious listmembers: Are religious peoples required to killfile this particular GOD individual because of the first commandment? Or do we wait for Nick to kick God off the list because he might be Jeroen? Inquiring minds want to know! G xponent God Removal Machine Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Gary Nunn wrote: If you can't stand the heat, don't tickle the dragon Oh, is *that* what the kids are calling it these days? :-) Jim No gag too base Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Jim Sharkey wrote: Gary Nunn wrote: If you can't stand the heat, don't tickle the dragon Oh, is *that* what the kids are calling it these days? :-) Jim No gag too base Maru Considering all the problems Tommy has been having with reflux, I consider gag to be a 4-letter word. :) And yeah, it can get pretty base at times. (He's been doing a lot better in the past few days, and he's almost up to 8kg.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:16:55 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Thunderbird does a similar act with threading and it seems to work pretty good. Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? I was curious how threading compared on mutt, Thunderbird, and mail.app. A google turned up this post: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:IQOnx2gc2_oJ:grove.ufl.edu/~dwc/a rchives/cat_internet.html+Thunderbird+threading+mutthl=enclient=fire fox-a http://urlsnip.com/699033 [Snip stuff] Thanks Erik! Interesting stuff. The first problem I've run into with Thunderbird has to do with filters. When I D/Led Thunderbird it copied all my settings from OE accurately and replicated the enviroment I was used to reading from including the seperate folders I keep for each mailing list I sub to. This was great! I could see all my old mail in a threaded enviroment which was a strong point in Thunderbirds favor. But when I downloaded some new mail everything was thrown into the Inbox and it was quite apparent that Thunderbird did not replicate *any* of my filters whatsoever. I have a LOT of filters and quail at the thought of inputing all this stuff manually. (Laziness on my part to be honestG) So it was a bit of a mixed bag for Thunderbird. It replicated all my settings accurately and seems to possess a superior functionality overall (in comparison to OE at least). The downside was that it didn't replicate my filters (which I find problematic since the filtering scheme for Thunderbird appears to be quite similar to that of OE and which makes me wonder why that particular function wasn't included). Realistically, Thunderbird seems to be designed to replace OE and does a good job at that for basic users, but the more advanced a user is the more difficulties one may find during the changeover period. (Hopefully someone here knows about something I missed, and I am just plain wrong about the filters. This would improve my opinion of Thunderbird considerably, even in light of the problems Erik has uncovered. ) Thunderbird quite plainly has better functionality than OE. Though I am still likely to continue to use OE for a while. At least until I can find out what MS is going to do to improve OE if indeed there are any such plans at all in the offing. xponent Ch Ch Ch Changes Maru rob As I wrote previously I just downloaded and started using Thunderbird and as a basic replacement for Outlook Express I like it. It did replicate my old identity with the thousands of emails and multiple folders when I would have preferred the newer identity. (And took over an hour to do so.) I was also surprised it did not replicate the filters. For this and other lists I think I prefer gmail but at the present rate I will exceed the one gig quota by the end of the year and would also prefer a better automatic spell and grammar checker. Gary Denton ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: You'll have to bombast someone else. Perhaps you could bombast the author of PuTTy, if you're so keen to bombast someone. Nah, I like PuTTy. Use it just about every day... I probably have at least two sessions going all the time. What version are you using? I haven't noticed the stuff you're describing... but then again, I'm probably just not paying attention. And I have prompts set to show me the cwd and user name, so I always have a bit of orientation to who and where I am. I suppose that to be fully oriented, I'd put the current time in the prompt. That's sort of a medical joke. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Robert Seeberger wrote: So it was a bit of a mixed bag for Thunderbird. It replicated all my settings accurately and seems to possess a superior functionality overall (in comparison to OE at least). The downside was that it didn't replicate my filters (which I find problematic since the filtering scheme for Thunderbird appears to be quite similar to that of OE and which makes me wonder why that particular function wasn't included). Yeah, and the filters only apply to one account, which isn't so great. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Robert Seeberger wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Thunderbird does a similar act with threading and it seems to work pretty good. Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? I was curious how threading compared on mutt, Thunderbird, and mail.app. A google turned up this post: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:IQOnx2gc2_oJ:grove.ufl.edu/~dwc/a rchives/cat_internet.html+Thunderbird+threading+mutthl=enclient=fire fox-a http://urlsnip.com/699033 [Snip stuff] Thanks Erik! Interesting stuff. The first problem I've run into with Thunderbird has to do with filters. When I D/Led Thunderbird it copied all my settings from OE accurately and replicated the enviroment I was used to reading from including the seperate folders I keep for each mailing list I sub to. This was great! I could see all my old mail in a threaded enviroment which was a strong point in Thunderbirds favor. But when I downloaded some new mail everything was thrown into the Inbox and it was quite apparent that Thunderbird did not replicate *any* of my filters whatsoever. I have a LOT of filters and quail at the thought of inputing all this stuff manually. (Laziness on my part to be honestG) So it was a bit of a mixed bag for Thunderbird. It replicated all my settings accurately and seems to possess a superior functionality overall (in comparison to OE at least). The downside was that it didn't replicate my filters (which I find problematic since the filtering scheme for Thunderbird appears to be quite similar to that of OE and which makes me wonder why that particular function wasn't included). It got all my filters from Netscape just fine. :) Realistically, Thunderbird seems to be designed to replace OE and does a good job at that for basic users, but the more advanced a user is the more difficulties one may find during the changeover period. (Hopefully someone here knows about something I missed, and I am just plain wrong about the filters. This would improve my opinion of Thunderbird considerably, even in light of the problems Erik has uncovered. ) Thunderbird quite plainly has better functionality than OE. Though I am still likely to continue to use OE for a while. At least until I can find out what MS is going to do to improve OE if indeed there are any such plans at all in the offing. Thunderbird looks a lot like the old Netscape Communicator I was using on the old computer, and functions in mostly the same way. (It'll take a little time to get used to the differences, but so far, they're not a hassle.) The only thing I managed to not do that I would have liked to have done was get the address book. But since I have all the messages it was constructed from, that won't be impossible, just will take a little while. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
I have used Netscape, Microsoft Outlook, and Outlook Express. I think I briefly tried Eudora. I liked Netscape the best and Outlook was fine for work but I didn't like for home. I have used Outlook Express for home for years but am increasingly dissatisfied, I like to save emails. I am now trying Thunderbird after liking Mozilla's Firefox. Too new for me to have any opinions. The online googlemail I like but I consider it not quite ready for wide release. Except for the ads and slowness I like Yahoo. I did not like Hotmail and others. I have some gmail invitations if anyone knows someone who needs one. Googlemail, Thunderbird and Yahoo are $0 as is Firefox. Gary Denton On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:12:58 -0500, Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:34:05PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? The Mutt E-Mail Client http://www.mutt.org/ What's the best thing about it? All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less. What's the worst thing about it? All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less. What OSs does it work under? Can be easily compiled for any *NIX OS. Is it more mouse-dependent or can it be mostly or fully driven from the keyboard? Fully keboard driven. Fully customizable. How much would it cost for me to get a properly licensed copy? $0 I don't try harder ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Warren Ockrassa wrote: Netscape Communicator has a very nice thread manager for discussion groups (!) and integrates more or less seamlessly with Navigator. (Freeware.) That's close to the one I'd recommend, Mozilla Thunderbird. It's free, and has a Bayesian spam filter. It also works like the old Netscape Communicator, with true email thread display. I've used Netscape Communicator and its descendants almost exclusively for home email use, since I first started on the net in the mid-90s. I've tried Eudora and Pegasus, and I've had to use Outlook at two different jobs. I haven't liked any of them as much as I like the Netscape series. Thunderbird isn't too good for keyboard-only input, though. I personally don't mind, but you may have different criteria than I do. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 07:12:58AM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:34:05PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? The Mutt E-Mail Client http://www.mutt.org/ By the way, if you want to see how mutt's nifty threading feature looks on Brin-L, you can surf here: http://erikreuter.net/erik/misc/mutt.html -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:10 AM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 07:12:58AM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:34:05PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? The Mutt E-Mail Client http://www.mutt.org/ By the way, if you want to see how mutt's nifty threading feature looks on Brin-L, you can surf here: http://erikreuter.net/erik/misc/mutt.html Thunderbird does a similar act with threading and it seems to work pretty good. Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? Your screenshot looks like it was designed for an Atari 2600 at worst or a 286 at best. Ugly as sin!!! xponent Command Line Display Could Be Beautified Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? Of course, didn't you to the link I gave? Mutt is fully customizable, as I said. Your screenshot looks like it was designed for an Atari 2600 at worst or a 286 at best. Ugly as sin!!! Obviously I disagree. It is perfect. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 8, 2005, at 9:10 AM, Erik Reuter wrote: On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 07:12:58AM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:34:05PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? The Mutt E-Mail Client http://www.mutt.org/ By the way, if you want to see how mutt's nifty threading feature looks on Brin-L, you can surf here: http://erikreuter.net/erik/misc/mutt.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh my, someone's bait to get 0wned. ;) I DLed the source and compiled it on OSX last night. Have not really puttered with it just yet. At first glance it looked more like pine than anything else, but that thread display is interesting. How's it do for horizontal scrolling? Methinks Robert was expecting something other than a text-only console window. ;) Perhaps there's another way to convince him. What's the system load mutt imposes? My Mail.app is currently using 42 MB actual, 130 MB virtual memory, which is a hell of a lot for email. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Gary Denton wrote: I have used Netscape, Microsoft Outlook, and Outlook Express. I think I briefly tried Eudora. I liked Netscape the best and Outlook was fine for work but I didn't like for home. I have used Outlook Express for home for years but am increasingly dissatisfied, I like to save emails. I am now trying Thunderbird after liking Mozilla's Firefox. Too new for me to have any opinions. The online googlemail I like but I consider it not quite ready for wide release. Except for the ads and slowness I like Yahoo. I did not like Hotmail and others. I have some gmail invitations if anyone knows someone who needs one. Googlemail, Thunderbird and Yahoo are $0 as is Firefox. I have friends on another list using Thunderbird -- I'll ask them about it. Thanks. I, too, have Gmail invites if they're wanted. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? Of course, didn't you to the link I gave? Mutt is fully customizable, as I said. Certainly, but you know how it is.lots of programs use the term fully customizable when they actually aren't. It never hurts to ask someone who has actually used a program just how fully customizable a fully customizable program actually is. Your screenshot looks like it was designed for an Atari 2600 at worst or a 286 at best. Ugly as sin!!! Obviously I disagree. It is perfect. G Tastes vary, but I would hate looking at that particular screen for very long. The colors just jar my eyes! Looking at that for very long would likely turn me into a serial killer or even worse, a republican.G Seriously.color schemes like that make my eyes ache after a while. I had a friend who was colorblind and he regularly chose such colors for his PC and it drove me nuts. Too many color contrasts with very bright and very dark areas. I could probably deal with the colors better if there were a white background with black text. Speaking of visionfor the last few months I have been convinced that my glasses were out of date and I needed to get my vision rechecked for a new prescription. Things were just as blurry with them on as with them off. It has not been a priority because I rarely wear my glasses even though I should when reading and driving. But yesterday I wore my glasses for the first time in a couple of months and my vision was perfect with them for the first time in many months. Anyone have any insight on that? xponent Not Wearing Them Now Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions Methinks Robert was expecting something other than a text-only console window. ;) NawI knew what I was seeing. I think I'm spoiled to the softer look of modern GUIs. They, for me, are much easier on the eyes. My first user experience with a computer (other than a bit of command line game play in some ur-geek cave/electronics stores) and my first online experience was on a mainframe with a CP/M subsystem. Monochrome monitors with ugly bright green text. It was an engineering Mainframe by Prime Computers used mainly for drafting, design, and making CNC tapes. (I was doing quality control at the time so was a step removed from the cool stuff.) I went through various Commodores and played with some ancient Apples and Zeniths from time to time and played with some 286s here and there, but didn't get into PCs to any great degree until the 386 debuted. I remained a loyal command line person until Win95 convinced me that GUIs were the Do of the future. So, I'm not *completely* clueless, but the pursuit of expertise is not particularly useful to me at this time. If I have questions (and those are usually small questions), there are always people I can get quick answers from if I can't do it myself immediately. xponent Industry Outsider Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:48:19AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Certainly, but you know how it is.lots of programs use the term fully customizable when they actually aren't. It never hurts to If you really did go to the mutt webpage link I provided, you would have been able to read about exactly how customizable mutt is. Fully customizable. I rarely exagerate. Please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:34 AM, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:48:19AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Certainly, but you know how it is.lots of programs use the term fully customizable when they actually aren't. It never hurts to If you really did go to the mutt webpage link I provided, you would have been able to read about exactly how customizable mutt is. Fully customizable. I rarely exagerate. Please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions. Sorry .. what were you saying? The mutt site is really more a vast collection of links, and I'm more likely to align with Robert here -- if you're recommending the product ostensibly you know something about it, and it might be much more sensible to ask a direct question as opposed to sifting through a very lengthy list of URLs, not a few of which are either stale or linked to further punchlists of arcane commands, in order to get a quick piece of information that can be answered in a one-line reply. I was going to ask what would be the most effective way to get mutt working with a remote POP system *and* synced with my pre-existing mail folders, but perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea. Perhaps I should try sifting through those pages instead. If you don't like participating in discussions, especially about things you seem to like, why are you on a discussion list? -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:48:19AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Certainly, but you know how it is.lots of programs use the term fully customizable when they actually aren't. It never hurts to If you really did go to the mutt webpage link I provided, you would have been able to read about exactly how customizable mutt is. Fully customizable. I rarely exagerate. Please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions. Erik, it is not your fault if others have abused the English language into submission. And excuse me for making doubly sure of the facts. I find it an interesting hypothesis that being mildly to more than moderately rude causes people to pay attention. On the contrary, I expect that it makes one an object of ridicule in public and in private whether one realizes it or not. xponent Waiting For The Historically Proven Echo Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:41:17AM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: The mutt site is really more a vast collection of links, and I'm more likely to align with Robert here -- if you're recommending the product ostensibly you know something about it, and it might be much more sensible to ask a direct question as opposed to sifting through a very lengthy list of URLs, not a few of which are either stale or linked to further punchlists of arcane commands, in order to get a quick piece of information that can be answered in a one-line reply. Now you're not paying attention. I did answer in a one-line reply. I said it was fully customizable. And I rarely exaggerate. But that wasn't good enough for Rob. I was going to ask what would be the most effective way to get mutt working with a remote POP system *and* synced with my pre-existing mail folders, but perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea. Perhaps I should try sifting through those pages instead. It is in the FAQ. If you don't like participating in discussions, especially about things you seem to like, why are you on a discussion list? I don't like repeating myself, I don't like answering FAQ's when I have provided a link. I do like participating in interesting discussions where people pay attention and think or read a little bit before they post. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:56 AM, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:41:17AM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: The mutt site is really more a vast collection of links, and I'm more likely to align with Robert here -- if you're recommending the product ostensibly you know something about it, and it might be much more sensible to ask a direct question as opposed to sifting through a very lengthy list of URLs, not a few of which are either stale or linked to further punchlists of arcane commands, in order to get a quick piece of information that can be answered in a one-line reply. Now you're not paying attention. I did answer in a one-line reply. I did not say you hadn't. I said it was fully customizable. And I rarely exaggerate. But that wasn't good enough for Rob. So you felt that resorting to rudeness was the most proper response? Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? I was going to ask what would be the most effective way to get mutt working with a remote POP system *and* synced with my pre-existing mail folders, but perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea. Perhaps I should try sifting through those pages instead. It is in the FAQ. Hadn't got to that part of the FAQ. There are several sections of it, you know. If you don't like participating in discussions, especially about things you seem to like, why are you on a discussion list? I don't like repeating myself, I don't like answering FAQ's when I have provided a link. I do like participating in interesting discussions where people pay attention and think or read a little bit before they post. Well it would seem, based on the nature of your comments here, that you are on the wrong list. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:40:55AM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Perhaps there's another way to convince him. What's the system load mutt imposes? My Mail.app is currently using 42 MB actual, 130 MB virtual memory, which is a hell of a lot for email. Below is the output of top while mutt is running (and looking through the Brin-L mailbox with 18MB of mail. As you can see, mutt is using 1.4% of 512M of memory. top - 14:07:12 up 18 days, 18 min, 5 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Tasks: 79 total, 1 running, 78 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie Cpu(s): 0.2% us, 0.3% sy, 0.0% ni, 99.5% id, 0.0% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si Mem:515228k total, 476372k used,38856k free,89232k buffers Swap:0k total,0k used,0k free, 267360k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+ COMMAND 6573 ereuter 16 0 10064 7064 4792 S 0.0 1.4 0:00.43 mutt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: So you felt that resorting to rudeness was the most proper response? You think stating a fact (please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions) is rude. You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is silly. But don't expect me to answer your questions if you are not paying attention. I think not paying attention but still expecting people to provide helpful responses is not particularly astute. Especially when it is me that is being expected to answer those questions. Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Well it would seem, based on the nature of your comments here, that you are on the wrong list. Perhaps, since you and Gary started posting. But that is easily solved with a kill file if it gets to be a problem. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik said: You think stating a fact (please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions) is rude. I think the quoted text is not, strictly speaking, a fact. I think not paying attention but still expecting people to provide helpful responses is not particularly astute. Especially when it is me that is being expected to answer those questions. See also http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#answers Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 08:26:47PM +, Richard Baker wrote: Erik said: You think stating a fact (please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions) is rude. I think the quoted text is not, strictly speaking, a fact. You are, of course, correct. The phrasing was, I thought, a slightly gentler way of conveying the fact I am unlikely to reply to your questions in the future if you don't pay attention. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! xponent Casual Information Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? Sexual orientation. xponent The Simple Answer Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:04:50PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? Sexual orientation. And how have I failed to pay attention to it, Rob? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:07 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:04:50PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: E-mail program questions On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? Sexual orientation. And how have I failed to pay attention to it, Rob? Incredulous Blank Stares xponent And Crickets Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:17:29PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:04:50PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? Sexual orientation. And how have I failed to pay attention to it, Rob? Incredulous Blank Stares Sigh. The crass implication about person A was that person A became homosexual because of bad experiences with girls in school which was a written as satire of the implication that person B was being rude because person B was beat up a lot in school. And to get back on subject, your email reply had serious problems. It really mangled the quote lines. It took me longer to fix that then to type the reply. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 04:25:29PM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: And to get back on subject, your email reply had serious problems. It really mangled the quote lines. It took me longer to fix that then to type the reply. http://erikreuter.net/erik/misc/mutt2.html By the way, here is a screenshot showing another trick the mutt can do. Colorizing each level of quotes in a message. Of course it only works if other emailers don't mangle the quotes... No doubt it will make Rob's eyes hurt, but it helps me to quickly see at a glance the structure of the message. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:17:29PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:04:50PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 02:44:06PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Erik, you really have not been paying attention!! Person A makes crass implication about person B being the way B is because of things that may have happened to B in the past that are very weakly causal at best. Person B replies with crass implication about person A being the way A is because of things that may have happened to A in the past that are very weakly causal at best. What have I failed to pay attention to, Rob? Sexual orientation. And how have I failed to pay attention to it, Rob? Incredulous Blank Stares Sigh. The crass implication about person A was that person A became homosexual because of bad experiences with girls in school which was a written as satire of the implication that person B was being rude because person B was beat up a lot in school. Blank Stares And to get back on subject, your email reply had serious problems. It really mangled the quote lines. It took me longer to fix that then to type the reply. YesOE tends to do that with distressing regularity, which is why I am interested in the subject at hand. (I get tired of having to remember to click up OE Quotefix) Mutt looks good and I would try it if I could find a Win port of it, but I didn't see anything to that regard on the page you linked to. What little slack I've had this afternoon is being interrupted by a pain-in-the-ass cat who likes to tear things up. In the middle of posting this he tore into a roll of toilet paper, spreading it all over the bathroom. We've tried keeping paper products out of reach, but this cat can climb and otherwise get into almost anything. I dislike the idea of having him de-clawed. xponent Feeling Testy Now Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:52:54PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Mutt looks good and I would try it if I could find a Win port of it, but I didn't see anything to that regard on the page you linked to. http://cygwin.com/ I haven't tried it, but you should be able to run mutt under Cygwin. (I run mutt on my Linux box, and then if I am on a windows box when I want to check my email I use puTTy to ssh into my Linux box) -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Erik Reuter wrote: http://erikreuter.net/erik/misc/mutt2.html By the way, here is a screenshot showing another trick the mutt can do. Colorizing each level of quotes in a message. Of course it only works if other emailers don't mangle the quotes... No doubt it will make Rob's eyes hurt, but it helps me to quickly see at a glance the structure of the message. Erik, that screenshot has the color aesthetics of Las Vegas. But more importantly, were you running mutt as root, you naughty person? ~Maru Unsolicited security advice is the best kind! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 06:45:44PM -0500, maru wrote: But more importantly, were you running mutt as root, you naughty person? No, that is a bug in PuTTy. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
All of the rude, sarcastic and abrasive comments snipped for reasons of sanity. Julia, your such a troublemaker What the hell were you thinking when you posted such an inflammatory and provocative question like what email program should I use? Although, I must admit that Rob's sexual orientation shot actually made me smile. You know, I think that certain people on this list would be much less snippy if they simply ate more Circus Peanuts. How can one be angry when they are consuming large orange peanut shaped sugar? (I just bought a fresh bag, can you tell???) Ok, I have had weaaa too much sugar and I am far too tired :-) Gary __ If you can't stand the heat, don't tickle the dragon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, maru wrote: ~Maru Unsolicited security advice is the best kind! Depends on the form it takes. :) Hacking into someone's system without permission and then pointing out the problem to them isn't terribly good. Noting a possible problem without hacking and pointing it out is much better. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 06:45:44PM -0500, maru wrote: But more importantly, were you running mutt as root, you naughty person? To elaborate, PuTTy changes the window title to root whenever it detects an su, but it does not change the window title back when the su is exited. Not a big deal since my command prompt also changes when I become root, so I can see at a glance whether I am root or not. Normally I am not. I am never root when I run mutt, since if I were, I would get the mailbox of the root user, which doesn't have any interesting emails in it. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
I was waiting for someone to point out just who had stirred up the hornet's nest. ;) On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Gary Nunn wrote: All of the rude, sarcastic and abrasive comments snipped for reasons of sanity. Julia, your such a troublemaker What the hell were you thinking when you posted such an inflammatory and provocative question like what email program should I use? Well, it did a lot better on the other list I tried to start discussion on -- no response until I got very specific, asking them about Thunderbird, and then the discussion was incredibly civil. I guess they've used up the flame on another topic Although, I must admit that Rob's sexual orientation shot actually made me smile. You know, I think that certain people on this list would be much less snippy if they simply ate more Circus Peanuts. How can one be angry when they are consuming large orange peanut shaped sugar? (I just bought a fresh bag, can you tell???) Circus Peanuts? I prefer Peeps, myself. Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) Ok, I have had weaaa too much sugar and I am far too tired :-) I have had not enough sugar and not enough sleep since sometime around Thanksgiving. (Hm. After the kids go to bed, I'll break out that dessert I neglected last night) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Thunderbird does a similar act with threading and it seems to work pretty good. Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? I was curious how threading compared on mutt, Thunderbird, and mail.app. A google turned up this post: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:IQOnx2gc2_oJ:grove.ufl.edu/~dwc/archives/cat_internet.html+Thunderbird+threading+mutthl=enclient=firefox-a http://urlsnip.com/699033 Since I've been away from my computers at home, I've decided to try a couple of IMAP clients. At work, I'm trying Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8. On my laptop, I'm trying Apple Mail 1.3.9 (v619). Normally, I use fetchmail, procmail, and mutt. I probably get close to 200 messages a day (mostly mailing lists), so automatic filtering and proper threading is a must. Thunderbird manages to get threading mostly correct, but it sometimes places replies in the wrong place in the tree. It looks like the threading code is basing much of its decisions on the Subject: header, when it really should be using References: and In-Reply-To:. It also has filtering, but I haven't tried it because I want everything to stay in my inbox so I can download my mail easily. Apple Mail has very lame threading support. When you select a message, it highlights messages in the same thread. It doesn't, by default, group threads or let you collapse them. There is an option to group discussions, but it only threads one level deep. A reply to a reply appears at the same level as the first reply. Mail also has filtering, but I haven't tried it. One feature of Apple Mail that I really like is the ability to combine your IMAP folders across different accounts into one. The contents of my overall inbox is the union of the contents of each account's inbox. The same applies for my Sent folder and my Trash folder. The only place you notice the fact you have multiple accounts is when composing an email, and normally the program chooses the right account for the From: line. Thunderbird doesn't really make any effort to hide the fact you have multiple accounts. You can't (as far as I can tell) combine mailboxes so they act sensibly. You can't set a default signature for all accounts; you have to specify one for each account. I guess if I had to use a graphical email client, I'd probably choose Apple Mail. But it really needs better threading support - maybe that will come in the next version of Mac OS X. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
I was waiting for someone to point out just who had stirred up the hornet's nest. ;) I guess that we can add Email Clients to the sensitive topics list right up there with abortion, gay marriage, politics, gun control and comparisons of list members to Hitler. Circus Peanuts? I prefer Peeps, myself. Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) It's the same old argument: Great Taste or Less Filling? Actually, I have to agree with you on this, had I had access to peeps tonight, I would have taken that road instead. I am surprised, this close to the holidays there are usually loads of peeps still available in the stores, but this year they have been scarce - even before the holidays. This time of year, I like to make hot chocolate and put peeps in it instead of standard marshmallows. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 09:56:29PM -0500, Gary Nunn wrote: Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) It's the same old argument: Great Taste or Less Filling? Are you trying to start a real flamewar about candy? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Julia wrote... Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) I wrote It's the same old argument: Great Taste or Less Filling? Erik wrote Are you trying to start a real flamewar about candy? Erik, sometimes you surprise me by allowing that well hidden sense of humor of yours to peek out :-) Although...if a flame war about candy could be fought, I bet it could be done on Brin-L! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:08:38PM -0500, Gary Nunn wrote: Erik, sometimes you surprise me by allowing that well hidden sense of humor of yours to peek out :-) Gary, now there is no need to be rude... -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
Now that's interesting: I use 'sudo' meself. A curious bug in puTTY. Another thing: wouldn't your prompt change automatically, from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I take it from your last section that you are actually getting all your email from /var/mail/, right, since if you were using POP to get remotely stored mail, the user would not matter. I never bothered setting that up (aside from administrivia of errors and updates etc. that i set it to mail). Didn't really seem worth it. Why did you? ~Maru /me is Off to see if Thunderbird will colorise like Mutt. Erik Reuter wrote: To elaborate, PuTTy changes the window title to root whenever it detects an su, but it does not change the window title back when the su is exited. Not a big deal since my command prompt also changes when I become root, so I can see at a glance whether I am root or not. Normally I am not. I am never root when I run mutt, since if I were, I would get the mailbox of the root user, which doesn't have any interesting emails in it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:23:32PM -0500, maru wrote: Now that's interesting: I use 'sudo' meself. A curious bug in puTTY. Another thing: wouldn't your prompt change automatically, from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On my system, the prompt is set automatically whenever a person logs in by a line in the script .bashrc. My root prompt (defined in /root/.bashrc) is deliberately set to be different than my normal user prompt. So yes, as I said, my command prompt also changes when I become root. But I take it from your last section that you are actually getting all your email from /var/mail/, right, since if Not from /var/mail, but from the local filesystem, yes. I keep my mail in mail/ in my home directory. Didn't really seem worth it. Why did you? I don't think you understand my setup. My linux box is a fully functional mail server, attached to the Internet 24/7 and running Postfix. There is no need for POP or IMAP or anything like that. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
Erik, sometimes you surprise me by allowing that well hidden sense of humor of yours to peek out :-) Gary, now there is no need to be rude... [hanging my head] your right, forgive me... It is the sugar high making me crazy tonight :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Gary Nunn wrote: Circus Peanuts? I prefer Peeps, myself. Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) It's the same old argument: Great Taste or Less Filling? Actually, I have to agree with you on this, had I had access to peeps tonight, I would have taken that road instead. I am surprised, this close to the holidays there are usually loads of peeps still available in the stores, but this year they have been scarce - even before the holidays. This time of year, I like to make hot chocolate and put peeps in it instead of standard marshmallows. I saw a machine somewhere to *make* Peeps. Might have been at Toys R Us. This was right before Christmas. Maybe it would be on toysrus.com (easily accessed from amazon.com). check Nope, but there are a couple of things for making Harry Potter edibles Might be fun. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Julia The Troublemaker was...RE: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 09:56:29PM -0500, Gary Nunn wrote: Or am I about to *really* start an argument with that statement? :) It's the same old argument: Great Taste or Less Filling? Are you trying to start a real flamewar about candy? Hm A real flamewar about candy would caramelize some of it, wouldn't it? That which was not already caramel, at least. ;) Would you care to share a list of your preferred candies, or those you can't stand, or both? (If so, labelling lists might be nice for those of us who'd make a virtual offer of one, so's not to virtually offer one you hate when the offerer intended to virtually offer one you liked) Julia who really likes dark chocolate, candy corn, Longhorns (kind of like Turtles), and certain hard candies ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:41:17AM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: The mutt site is really more a vast collection of links, and I'm more likely to align with Robert here -- if you're recommending the product ostensibly you know something about it, and it might be much more sensible to ask a direct question as opposed to sifting through a very lengthy list of URLs, not a few of which are either stale or linked to further punchlists of arcane commands, in order to get a quick piece of information that can be answered in a one-line reply. Now you're not paying attention. I did answer in a one-line reply. I said it was fully customizable. And I rarely exaggerate. But that wasn't good enough for Rob. If everyone really meant fully customizable when they said it, it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, over 50% of the people using it don't *really* mean it, and it may be over 90%. It's become a buzzword (buzzphrase?) that is used in situations where it shouldn't be, so many people have learned the hard way *not* to take it at face value. I figure now that I know your strictness for accuracy in using this term, in the future I will take you at your word when you use fully customizable. But I will still continue to question others using this term if I don't know just how strict they are with its use. Should I assume similar strictness in accuracy for all terms from you? (I'm thinking probably so, unless you're being silly, at which point a number of rules fly out the window, to be replaced by a set of new rules) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 11:07:02AM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: Is there any way to change the look of Mutt? Of course, didn't you to the link I gave? Mutt is fully customizable, as I said. Your screenshot looks like it was designed for an Atari 2600 at worst or a 286 at best. Ugly as sin!!! Obviously I disagree. It is perfect. For you. I don't agree, myself, but a number of my friends would agree with you, as it would be perfect for them. I don't think it's quite as bad as the reactions of various other people led me to believe it would be. I prefer dark text on a light background, but black and white is just a little too much contrast for me. I use a dark blue for the foreground and a custom color for the background. (RGB values 0,0,64 for foreground, 240,240,240 for background. Black would be 0,0,0 and white would be 255,255,255, for those of you wanting that reference.) But that's just me. Your font looks OK -- not my ideal font, but one I could live with. (I'm using Fixedsys here, if anyone gives a rip.) Again, that's just me. Julia who desperately needs to get the desktop background file off the old computer and apply it to the new computer, or at least needs to set the background to black ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 10:16:41PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: If everyone really meant fully customizable when they said it, it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, over 50% of the people using it don't *really* mean it, and it may be over 90%. It's become a buzzword (buzzphrase?) that is used in situations where it shouldn't be, so many people have learned the hard way *not* to take it at face value. Arghhh! The point is, I provided a link with a detailed description of what can be done, as well as a capsule summary fully customizable. And I was STILL questioned about it. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 8, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 12:04:48PM -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote: So you felt that resorting to rudeness was the most proper response? You think stating a fact (please pay attention if you want me to reply to your questions) is rude. No; I think it's rude to assume that the entire world will sit quietly at your lotus-flower feet and play rapt attention as dulcet strains of truth fall like gems from your ruby lips, carefully taking note of every jewel of absolute truth you care to condescend to deposit before our unworthy snouts. I also think it's rude to offer advice on a topic and, when asked for further information, to behave as though you've been massively inconvenienced, your attention diverted from other matters of much greater moment than continuing a discussion in which you did not, strictly speaking, have to participate from the beginning. I know that being a DM takes a lot of time and attention, but I promise you that the gamers' group will be able to wait the extra few moments it takes for you to type yes, as opposed to the two grafs across four lines you chose to write instead. You will then be able to turn back to them and roll your eyes theatrically at the abysmal stupidity of those zero-charisma non-133t illiterati you have to deal with online from time to time. (Which response do *you* believe is the greater waste of time? Do you have a keystroke counter? Perhaps you could try a few tests.) Did you get beaten up a lot in school or something? Did you have trouble with girls in school or something? Not in general. At least, I never had any ex complain. I've just observed, casually, that people who feel it necessary to behave in a consistently bully-like fashion online were usually the saddest, most tortured kids in high school. Most of them grow out of it after a while. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:34:05PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? The Mutt E-Mail Client http://www.mutt.org/ What's the best thing about it? All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less. What's the worst thing about it? All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less. What OSs does it work under? Can be easily compiled for any *NIX OS. Is it more mouse-dependent or can it be mostly or fully driven from the keyboard? Fully keboard driven. Fully customizable. How much would it cost for me to get a properly licensed copy? $0 -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: E-mail program questions
On Jan 6, 2005, at 9:34 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: What is your favorite e-mail program? What's the best thing about it? What's the worst thing about it? What OSs does it work under? Is it more mouse-dependent or can it be mostly or fully driven from the keyboard? How much would it cost for me to get a properly licensed copy? Mail.app, the freebie that comes with OSX, is pretty good. Eudora's a pretty good one too. (Payware.) Netscape Communicator has a very nice thread manager for discussion groups (!) and integrates more or less seamlessly with Navigator. (Freeware.) If you really want a keyboard-driven one, you must, absolutely must, look into pine, which is free, the more or less de facto standard for term email clients, and a damned good little email app. I used pine for *years* until Slackware had evolved enough for a decent GUI client, and still think it's very well-written program. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
