RE: A Contractor or Two
Plus the ones you give good deals to or give them slack are the ones who you are constantly chasing for payments or whatever. I have a client right now that i gave 75% off price and a year and a half to pay and then they came back and tried to not pay and have been bad mouthing me to everyone because I got my attorney after them for payment, needless to say we are settling tomorrow and they are getting checkbook out but still a PITA. And then the clients who want to pay full price are the ones that are on time with payment and little or no hassle. The problem is for the small guy to get those good clients because when you need business you will do about anything to get it, which leads to trouble and you end up with clients who are the buy here - pay here (aka bad credit car buyers) types of customers. And if you notice the busy shops or developers are the ones with a solid and firm price who don't discount everything which commands respect from the customers and they have far fewer hassles. ~Dave the disruptor~ google will pay you money to getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ From: Jennifer Gavin-Wear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:30 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership. I learnt that problem customers stay problem customers, things never get better. And the longer you keep them on your books the worse it gets. While I was dealing with the idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff. Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and giving them the grief. Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback to you is never good. The longer you keep them on your books the longer they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers. So get rid. I currently charge 50% up front and 50% on completion for development based on total project cost, not an hourly rate. The idea of the 10% on hold I think is really good, but I think 90 days is a bit long and I'd probably go for 30. I'm seeing some extremely wide variances in project costs in the market. From the stupidly cheap (how can they live on that level) to the incredibly expensive (the customer won't come back when he finds out he has been ripped off). So I am wondering what realistic rates are in the UK and would appreciate feedback. Thanks, Jenny ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227970 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
AMEN! I gave up on my computer hardware side-business after dealing with just one of these. I should have simply refused to sell them the system rather than deal with all the problems that this person kept causing. On 12/30/05, Jennifer Gavin-Wear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership. I learnt that problem customers stay problem customers, things never get better. And the longer you keep them on your books the worse it gets. While I was dealing with the idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff. Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and giving them the grief. Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback to you is never good. The longer you keep them on your books the longer they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers. So get rid. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227971 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big margin for error, then add another margin for error. Though I typically bid per project, I spend a lot of time figuring out exactly how many hours it's going to take me to complete something, and I've gotten to the point where I'm usually very close if the client gets me the stuff I need by their deadline and then leaves me alone to get their job done. I've also built up a decent library of widgets (press release apps, email newsletters, event calendars - along with their admin page - that sort of thing) that I can just pop into a site, add the proper CSS and it's done - and I've got a standard charge for those particular widgets. An event calendar is always going to be $xx.xx, as long as the functionality stays pretty much the same as my pre-built widget. I do add in a certain amount of slop to allow for a margin of error, and there's also certain clients that have a per hour a**hole fee that gets factored in as well, because I know it's going to take twice as long to get their job done because they won't leave me alone long enough to make any real progress. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227973 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
The problem is for the small guy to get those good clients because when you need business you will do about anything to get it, which leads to trouble and you end up with clients who are the buy here - pay here (aka bad credit car buyers) types of customers. AMEN BROTHER! Right on! :) WIll ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227974 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges. I wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to this blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are derived. http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=aliasalias=project%20estimates The larger companies don't like the range so I use my methodology and simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for a P.O. Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with them. Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha). That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with me for a very long time. Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I remember when they were our bread and butter. I try to work with them and help to feel like things have not changed too much. -Mark -Original Message- From: Les Mizzell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big margin for error, then add another margin for error. Though I typically bid per project, I spend a lot of time figuring out exactly how many hours it's going to take me to complete something, and I've gotten to the point where I'm usually very close if the client gets me the stuff I need by their deadline and then leaves me alone to get their job done. I've also built up a decent library of widgets (press release apps, email newsletters, event calendars - along with their admin page - that sort of thing) that I can just pop into a site, add the proper CSS and it's done - and I've got a standard charge for those particular widgets. An event calendar is always going to be $xx.xx, as long as the functionality stays pretty much the same as my pre-built widget. I do add in a certain amount of slop to allow for a margin of error, and there's also certain clients that have a per hour a**hole fee that gets factored in as well, because I know it's going to take twice as long to get their job done because they won't leave me alone long enough to make any real progress. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227981 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen several messages from list members whose names I did not recognize. Are you all new members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF in your day-to-day business? George ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227983 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see charging by the hour as something of an open cheque. hehe...an open cheque for the always open project scope seems fair ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227985 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen several messages from list members whose names I did not recognize. Are you all new members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF in your day-to-day business? George Well I'm not a lurkerbut I have used CF full-time since 1998 version 3.1so yeah...I use it in my day-to-day business ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227987 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I am so very late on this thread Very interesting Mark, great post on the blog I plan to re-read it. Thx, Yves On 12/30/05, Mark A Kruger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges. I wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to this blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are derived. http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=aliasalias=project%20estimates The larger companies don't like the range so I use my methodology and simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for a P.O. Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with them. Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha). That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with me for a very long time. Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I remember when they were our bread and butter. I try to work with them and help to feel like things have not changed too much. -Mark ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227988 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
tanks! -Original Message- From: Yves Arsenault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two I am so very late on this thread Very interesting Mark, great post on the blog I plan to re-read it. Thx, Yves On 12/30/05, Mark A Kruger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This process is of great interest to me. We work at it from month to month as our business grows and we do project estimates based on hourly ranges. I wrote a blog about it recently and it has some excellent comments attached about some other similar methods. I often refer potential customers to this blog so they can see (in the spirit of openess) how our numbers are derived. http://mkruger.cfwebtools.com/index.cfm?mode=aliasalias=project%20estimates The larger companies don't like the range so I use my methodology and simply offer the maximum as a flat amount - which they use as a basis for a P.O. Since we are usually doing projects under 100,000 this is fine with them. Needless to say I like the larger companies (ha). That being said, I have several long standing customers who have been with me for a very long time. Yes, they can be frustrating to deal with, but I remember when they were our bread and butter. I try to work with them and help to feel like things have not changed too much. -Mark ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227989 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/29/05, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see charging by the hour as something of an open cheque. ... They want to have a cap on what they are going to pay. Absolutely. If you go hourly your clients have to either know your work from past experience, and already trust you, or know you from a referrral, or be impressed by their meeting with you. If I was just starting out I don't think I could get away with hourly billing. So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big margin for error, then add another margin for error. That was my 'old' way of doing it and I tell clients right up front that if they want a fixed cost this is how I will derive it, emphasizing that while an hourly rate on a project is scary, if they want a fixed cost this is how its figured up in the business. They can avoid the overage guesstimates by having faith, paying only for what they incur and very likely saving money. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227992 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
This thread has been invaluable as we have been struggling with estimating, etc. We've been using CF since 3.1. So we use it day to day, no doubt. Eric J. Hoffman Managing Partner 2081 Industrial Blvd StillwaterMN55082 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: www.ejhassociates.com tel: 651.207.1526 fax: 651.207.1536 mob: 952.210.9060 This message contains confidential information and is intended only for [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are not cf-talk@houseoffusion.com you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Eric J. Hoffman therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. -Original Message- From: Earl, George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:12 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two This has been a really interesting thread, in part because I've seen several messages from list members whose names I did not recognize. Are you all new members or just lurking most of the time? And do you use CF in your day-to-day business? George ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227999 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving away free or low flat-fee type projects is the clients will be blown away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back with further work. In my experience, I've found it better to charge the full amount as a line item, then to give a new account discount on those first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future know that this discount will not be applied. Rich Kroll Application Developer -Original Message- From: Ali Awan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 6:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two Matt, I've been asking a similar question to no avail. I'm glad someone started this thread over here. As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on your own. I just wanted to ask some advice of you. Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone? Like for example, $35/hour. I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, project planning, as opposed to actual development? Next, should there be a different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html. Also do you recommend padding hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html). I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps. I'll sometimes do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start. I'm hoping that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results. Cheers --Ali If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a client, my answer is an emphatic yes, and no, don't be greedy as in set the price on a job-specific basis. Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: Brain surgery and Legwork. Brain surgery equates to I don't know how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years, I'll be able to figure it out. Legwork is yeah been there done that... no problem. Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent. I place a value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented to me. So I make money. More importantly, the client comes back for the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given them a baseline that they know they can count on. Your code spoke for itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a snowball rolling downhill. This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid. Actually have more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients. First tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients. I'm still backed up at least a month. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227856 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of! Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all glowy inside :O) Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Total: £1 Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD Ade -Original Message- From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving away free or low flat-fee type projects is the clients will be blown away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back with further work. In my experience, I've found it better to charge the full amount as a line item, then to give a new account discount on those first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future know that this discount will not be applied. Rich Kroll Application Developer ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227870 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Wow...I think Matt and I are on the same page...well said Matt!! ;-) The next step, which I haven't done yet, is to bring in a CF coder. the trouble with expanding your staff is your clients want *you* to do the work if the relationship is right, and you're stepping away from them. Another challenge. Matt we're in that boat right now. In tha past we've brought in subs as needed, but we have just hired 3 coders. What we have done to help mitigate client fears (because they all want me...same as you've found) is to say to themYou get our staff at the prescribed rate, but you also get me (and one of my partners in this case) to manage the project and ensure quality is kept up to expected standards. This way they essentially get 5 bodies for the price of 3shows how the project can be saved in the event of a tight timeline etc. Of course this will only work up to a max number of projects and then the free bodies get stretched too thin. Hopefully it will help ya in the transition ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227876 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of! Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all glowy inside :O) Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Total: £1 Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin* Ade -Original Message- From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving away free or low flat-fee type projects is the clients will be blown away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back with further work. In my experience, I've found it better to charge the full amount as a line item, then to give a new account discount on those first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future know that this discount will not be applied. Rich Kroll Application Developer ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227890 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
Oh crapola! Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Because you're the bestest: £999,999 Total: £1 :OD -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 December 2005 16:45 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of! Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all glowy inside :O) Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Total: £1 Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin* Ade ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227900 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
LOL... o my... !K -Original Message- From: John Paul Ashenfelter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: December 29, 2005 10:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of! Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all glowy inside :O) Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Total: £1 Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD Umm, actually I'd wonder about the quality of the code I'm getting since your subtraction is off by... ummm. 999,999 *grin* Ade -Original Message- From: Rich Kroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 December 2005 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: A Contractor or Two One thing I've found that you should watch out for is the concept of giving away free or low flat-fee type projects is the clients will be blown away by your work, and then expect to receive the same fees when coming back with further work. In my experience, I've found it better to charge the full amount as a line item, then to give a new account discount on those first few projects to help build loyalty, that way they get a feel for what the project would have cost without the discount, and that in the future know that this discount will not be applied. Rich Kroll Application Developer ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227903 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Well the best sales person is the one who makes each customer think they are getting a deal better than anyone else could get there. I charge different clients different rates but do not charge different rates for types of work on the same project. On 12/29/05, Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd counter that by saying that you could point out to the customer that they are getting a good deal. Tell them in as many ways as you can think of! Showing the full price on the invoice with a discount makes them feel all glowy inside :O) Work: £100,000,000 Because it's you discount: £99,000,000 Total: £1 Now doesn't that look much nicer?! :OD Ade ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227909 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I loved reading Bryanâs post, about the grocery store analogy. Iâve tried to dip my foot in the pool of freelancing, and Iâve turned down a lot for the same reasons. Oh we just want to give this a try for a couple of months (without pay), and if it works outâ¦.. Yeah, hopefully the homeless shelter has room for my family, while Iâm developing your app. I just wanted to thank Bryan, Matt, and John Paul. All of your replies have given me confidence, and helped. Right now, Iâm helping a friend, which is how I will justify my low flat fee. Plus Iâm learning PHP while Iâm doing it. Thanks again, Ali ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227918 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
You could modify the Dilbert cartoon from a few weeks ago and just say that the discount will be between 1 and two million dollars. It'll be a lot closer to the 'one dollar' than the 'two million' dollars, but it will definately be between those two numbers! ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227919 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out load Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody. I now do most jobs in phases: 1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality 2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and whom is supplying what. Two things I'm always careful about: a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a specified date or that voids my complete deadline. b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try to sneak a single additional feature in after development has started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and adds additional time to the complete date. 3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and go we've decided to try something else, and then *use* the layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always enough to cover the initial graphic design. 4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined in the contract, I get another payment. 5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full. I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working pretty good in my opinion. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227921 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
The customer will do whatever you ALLOW them to do. It is the same old adage... People get treated the way they ALLOW themselves to be treated. A client who wants to circumvent a sound business practice is not a client that can be considered a good investment of your time. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227922 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. Thanks, Michael -Original Message- From: Les Mizzell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out load Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody. I now do most jobs in phases: 1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality 2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and whom is supplying what. Two things I'm always careful about: a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a specified date or that voids my complete deadline. b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try to sneak a single additional feature in after development has started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and adds additional time to the complete date. 3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and go we've decided to try something else, and then *use* the layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always enough to cover the initial graphic design. 4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined in the contract, I get another payment. 5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full. I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working pretty good in my opinion. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227924 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs. However at some point in the past couple of years I have switched to strictly hourly rates. I think once I started getting so busy, one of my clients is essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week, is when I switched to strictly hourly rates. On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. Thanks, Michael ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227925 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
I am considering going to a strict hourly basis. Right now most of what I do is project based fee. I usually do like what was mentioned previously, 1. Meet with client and discuss all requirements. 2. establish contract and get signatures. 3. request 25% of contract cost prior to any development work. 4. upon completing and prior to formal testing, request 50% of contract cost. 5. upon acceptance and prior to delivery, the remaining 25% should be paid. Now there was one client I did 33% at start and the remaining at acceptance and prior to delivery. So far it has worked for me. -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs. However at some point in the past couple of years I have switched to strictly hourly rates. I think once I started getting so busy, one of my clients is essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week, is when I switched to strictly hourly rates. On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. Thanks, Michael ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227926 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Glad to shed some lightbest of luck ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227927 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
and further to what Lez has said Some folks think it's harsh to use such strict change control. I say no way. Clients end up appreciateing it because everything is so detailed they aren't left with any grey areasthey aren't left guessing what the outcome may be...it's right there in black and white...all changes documented...no confusion. Just like being the grocery store...prices in stone...ya know aht ya get cause it says so right on the price tag for the product ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com - Original Message - From: Les Mizzell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: A Contractor or Two When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out load Yea, same here. But, I'm almost too busy now, so maybe it's time to raise rates a little bit. I don't back down on them for anybody. I now do most jobs in phases: 1. Meet with client and work out site map and site functionality 2. Draw up a detailed contract specifying deadlines for things and whom is supplying what. Two things I'm always careful about: a. Client is responsible for delivering *all* content to me by a specified date or that voids my complete deadline. b. I do a very detailed site map listing all features. If they try to sneak a single additional feature in after development has started, then it's an *addition*, is billed additionally and adds additional time to the complete date. 3.Once all the above is approved, I get a partial payment (usually 1/3rd) before I do anything else. Until I get this payment, they're not going to see a single layout, because I had a client walk with my layouts, call me on the phone and go we've decided to try something else, and then *use* the layouts for their site anyway. The partial payment is always enough to cover the initial graphic design. 4. From there I plow into the site/application structure, CSS and all that other good stuff. At some point in the process, defined in the contract, I get another payment. 5. After it's all finished, unless it's a client I've worked with before and trust, it doesn't go live until I'm paid in full. I've only been ripped off once in the last 10 years - and I manged to sell the site in question to somebody else, so the system is working pretty good in my opinion. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227928 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. I sidestep this issue with weekly billings. Each billing includes a shorthand, day-by-day di this today list. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227929 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
The customer will do whatever you ALLOW them to do. It is the same old adage... People get treated the way they ALLOW themselves to be treated. A client who wants to circumvent a sound business practice is not a client that can be considered a good investment of your time. Well said...if your client goes sideways...you weren't doing things right (well..most times anyways). Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227930 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
All, I don't have much more to add, except for some reinforcement of already stated ideas. My mother and step-father have been running very successful engineering consulting firms out of their house for years, and their advice to me has echoed what the folks on this list have said: 1) Never underbid. You devalue yourself in the eyes of the market. (To drive this home, a story about a family friend who owned a winery: he was having trouble with sales, despite consistently winning competitions. He raised his price about 35%, and sales went through the roof.) 2) Bill one hourly rate. Estimates of total job price should be based on the number of hours you anticipate. This way, if the client asks for extra, you simply estimate the extra number of hours, and they pay for that. If it's a total job quote that is not explicitly based (i.e., noted in the contract) on the number of hours, it makes it a lot harder to estimate add-ons. 3) Everything in writing up front, as detailed as possible. 4) Bill for the work you do. If you quote 35 hours, bill 22 if you work 22 and 39 if you work 39. It's usually a good idea to include something that says: will not go over unless client is first notified. See exception in number 6, below. 5) One sales technique is to provide the client with a menu. As you all know, getting the job done can mean a dozen different things for one set of specifications. For example, a simple web form might be made to work, but adding JavaScript utilities that make keyboard navigation easier might up the value of the tool. So, you say, x hours will get you the basic form, but x+4 hours will get you these other features. This can be tricky, though. 6) For those of you starting out: if you are worried that your rate sounds too high, or that your overall job price is too stiff, don't worry: you can lie! What do I mean? Let's say that you have decent skills, but you are on your first job out and feel nervous charging $1000 (20 hours at $50/hr) for a project because you aren't positive you can deliver the quality you want to deliver in the hours you've laid out. You can just work overtime for free, but tell them that you did it in the 20 hours. You take the hit in the short run, but as you gain experience and confidence, that goes away, and you don't have to deal with changing your rate over time. And if it takes you 60 hours (barring any truly giant problems that pop up), you will have learned better estimating skills! HTH, Matthieu ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227931 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Michael E. Carluen wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. It can vary a little per client, but unless it's somebody I know and love and do continual work with, I always get 30% upon approval of the site map and features and I make sure those features are chiseled in stone. Due date for the next payment isn't something I've hard coded into the contracts. The client and I usually negotiate a point that we're both comfortable with. It really varies with the project. If it's a really large project that's going to take a very long time to complete, I may even do a few smaller payments along and along in the contract just to keep my cash flow going. I'm not going to build a five figure app (not that I get that many of these!) for somebody and wait until the end to see any income from it! To me, it's really about finding a comfort level with a particular client. I know they want to see their project completed before they fork over too much $$, but I gotta eat while I'm working or I start to get cranky and my code starts to look a little weird... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227932 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I sidestep this issue with weekly billings. Each billing includes a shorthand, day-by-day di this today list. Now there's a thought. Keeps your cash flow a little more regular too... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227933 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. I've done progress- and frequency-based billing and prefer frequency-based a lot (monthly is usually my default for established clients). One cardinal rule though, is to refuse the go-live code distribution until you're paid. If it *has* to be released today, they'll find the money. I found it *extremely* effective to add hosting as a business b/c it covers my biz hosting costs, makes me a small percentage, and means I say when launch happens. Many smaller clients like that just as much since it saves them the trouble of negotiating hosting agreements and the crapshoot on lowest-bidder hosted web site support. Its a lot easier for me too b/c I effectively can do shared hosting but all the apps are mine -- no worrying about someone else screwing up the server (of course it doesn't stop you from screwing it up yourself). There's never any arguing w/ the tech support guys about access, etc. You can find decent *dedicated* hosting (not virtual, not shared) that's more than adequate for many smallbiz websites for $200/mo (as low as $89/mo for example with 1and1 on Linux). -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227950 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/29/05, Les Mizzell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now there's a thought. Keeps your cash flow a little more regular too... That has been a BIG benefit. There is literally always money coming in, and since its weekly the bites you take out of the client are smaller, which seems to decrease the pain factor for them somewhat. Plus, if they get behind in a couple of payments it provides an easy 'resting place' for that job, where work resumes when the late invoices are taken care of. Keeps you from getting in too deep without payment, and as importantly the client can easily understand why work is not progressing, and knows what they need to do to pick it back up again. My long-term clients get some slack. But I usually won't cross 3 weeks. Regular weekly billings can be problematic with large organizations who always seem to have accounting departments staffed by chimps. Still, I place the burden of feeding the chimps bananas on the department who has hired me, and they do, in general, deal with it internally, which is as it should be. If I were to go monthly that would mean I'd be working up to two months for free before I had to cut someone off. Past my pain threshold. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227955 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Only one of the clients I've spoken to in the last couple of years was ok with hourly rates. Maybe it's the mix of clients I see, but the rest all see charging by the hour as something of an open cheque. Maybe they've all had renovatoins done in their houses and seen the costs blow out that way. They want to have a cap on what they are going to pay. So I work out the number of hours I think it's going to take, add a big margin for error, then add another margin for error. I have had no problem getting 50% on acceptance of my proposal, 40% on launch of the site, and the client retains 10% until 90 days after site launch - a period I call the warranty period.I found that helped them feel happy with paying the 40% on launch, rather than saying yes thats nearly complete, but can you just do this or do that and we'll call it done.They know they have some of my money to hold over my head as an incentive to get all those little tweaks finished. For my part, 10% is small enough an amount that i can walk away from it if it becomes really necesary. Like for example if the client keeps coming up with one reason after another to keep me hanging around doing stuff for him under the original contract. (something that hasn't happened in this business, but did happen frequently to me when I was running a telemarketing call centre business years ago) I am currently working on a project with many more milestones than start and launch and warranty end - it's got about 10 milestones with payments attached, but I think one of the clincher deals was allowing the client to retain part of the fee for 90 days after launch, so they can feel sure I'm going to hang around to help them phase it all in and get it bedded down. In all these cases, it's unnecessary because I WANT to hang around. I WANT to be getting more business from them, but they dont know that. At that point, I'm just another salesperson telling them a story. The point of allowing them to retain some of the money is that they dont have to figure out whether I'm like their carpenter doing their house add-on - do a bit now and come back next month to do a bit more - or whether I'm going to stay on their job and get it finished for them. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 12/30/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used to do this, did it in 1/4s or 1/3s depending on the jobs. However at some point in the past couple of years I have switched to strictly hourly rates. I think once I started getting so busy, one of my clients is essentially a full time job at around 40 hours per week, is when I switched to strictly hourly rates. On 12/29/05, Michael E. Carluen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les, interesting point on progress payments. I'm curious as to how and how many enforce billing based on progress ie 1/3 work done, 33.3% of job billed/paid. Thanks, Michael ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227966 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: A Contractor or Two
A few years ago I ran a small IT dealership. I learnt that problem customers stay problem customers, things never get better. And the longer you keep them on your books the worse it gets. While I was dealing with the idiots (and that's being kind) my competition was getting the good stuff. Had I had more sense and experience I would of dumped these idiots very early on and they would of been knocking on the door of my competitors and giving them the grief. Bad customers aren't just bad news because they pay late and their feedback to you is never good. The longer you keep them on your books the longer they are bad mouthing you behind your back to other potential customers. So get rid. I currently charge 50% up front and 50% on completion for development based on total project cost, not an hourly rate. The idea of the 10% on hold I think is really good, but I think 90 days is a bit long and I'd probably go for 30. I'm seeing some extremely wide variances in project costs in the market. From the stupidly cheap (how can they live on that level) to the incredibly expensive (the customer won't come back when he finds out he has been ripped off). So I am wondering what realistic rates are in the UK and would appreciate feedback. Thanks, Jenny ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227968 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
A Contractor or Two
I figured I'd move this to cf-talk and hear some comments=2E Anyone care t= o discuss=3F Original Message: - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:47:00 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Needed: A Contractor or Two Original Message: - From: Doug Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:21:31 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Needed: A Contractor or Two No clothes=3F! How dare you say that! I'm not naked! My clothes are me= rely very very thin=2E =20 Fair enough=2E :) My client contacted me yesterday in the evening to see if I could help him=2E I can't=2E I'm too busy=2E We had a 1/2 hour phone conversation= and I got a gist of what he wants=2E=20 Based on that gist I sent an email to cf-jobs to try to help my client find the right person for his needs=2E =20 Ah=2E ok=2E :) Makes sense=2E The reason I said intimate details is because I get emails like this: I'm hoping that intimate detail will result in, perhaps, a few informative paragraphs=2E Honestly, I make most of my decisions based on cover lette= rs=2E If the person sounds intelligent I read their resume=2E If not, I don't=2E= Actually, usually the person has provided the real information I want to see in their cover letter=2E The resume is filler=2E Good point=2E Most experience I've had with cover letters has been negativ= e (People don't tend to read them)=2E I know my cover letter doesn't express= my knowlege of coldfusion very well simply because I'm not a good writter in the sense that I write things that are engaging and enjoyable to read=2E G= ive me a technical document request though and I'm all over that mutha=2E :) Regarding the rate, most developers have a standard rate=2E I do=2E Thi= s is no different than a typical full time job listing asking for your salary requirements=2E If you don't want to provide this yet, go ahead and tell= me, but explain why=2E I'm happy to listen=2E I'd feel unconfortable providing it to anyone for a simple reason=2E=2E Why does what some job I had before paid me have any revelance to the job you are recruiting for=3F You could say I'm to expensive=2E Well, it's possible that my last job pai= d me 100,000 for a job that lasted me 1 month=2E However, that was them=2E T= his is you=2E perhaps my last job paid me $8/hr=2E Does that mean that I am no= t worth much or does that mean that I got massive benefits (Full medical, dental, 401k, stocks, company car, promise to hire on full time, private lear jet, etc=2E)=2E Asking salary on a specific job is not feasable because it depends=2E I (a= nd most of the CF programmers that I know) adjust their rate based on the following factors (and others)=2E=2E=2E 1) How hard will this be to do=3F 2) How long will this take me=3F 3) Is this Telecommuting or on-site=3F 4) Is there any benefits (mentioned above)=3F 5) Will programs be offered or services be provided to help with the work or will I be expected to use my own tools=3F 6) Is the person I'm working for a hands-off manager or is he a pointy haired boss=3F 7) How desperite am I for work=3F It's a balancing act=2E Yeah, the work may be hard (causing my rates to go= up), but if it's a year long project and I can telecommute and they are offering benefits, my expected pay goes way down because of things besides= salary=2E So, besides my old salary not being an issue, it's kind of impossible for me to give you an accurite bid for the project because I don't know much about it=2E Can I safely say that I'd be willing to work for 10/hr=2E - 100,00/hr=2E (Private jet optional) :)=3F mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227788 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a client, my answer is an emphatic yes, and no, don't be greedy as in set the price on a job-specific basis. Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: Brain surgery and Legwork. Brain surgery equates to I don't know how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years, I'll be able to figure it out. Legwork is yeah been there done that... no problem. Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent. I place a value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented to me. So I make money. More importantly, the client comes back for the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given them a baseline that they know they can count on. Your code spoke for itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a snowball rolling downhill. This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid. Actually have more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients. First tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients. I'm still backed up at least a month. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227793 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I would agree. To be honest, I teach anyone who will listen not to work with people who have packages setup for custom work. Now, a prebuilt CMS or whatever is fine but to say You get 10 pages + 1 swf for $750 is a terrible deal. (that's only an example) We either work hourly or estimate the total hours for the project and use that as the total price for the project. I tell clients if we're under or over they won't pay any more than the project price (unless there are new items added to the list. On 12/28/05, Matt Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a client, my answer is an emphatic yes, and no, don't be greedy as in set the price on a job-specific basis. Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: Brain surgery and Legwork. Brain surgery equates to I don't know how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years, I'll be able to figure it out. Legwork is yeah been there done that... no problem. Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent. I place a value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented to me. So I make money. More importantly, the client comes back for the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given them a baseline that they know they can count on. Your code spoke for itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a snowball rolling downhill. This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid. Actually have more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients. First tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients. I'm still backed up at least a month. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227799 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Matt, I've been asking a similar question to no avail. I'm glad someone started this thread over here. As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on your own. I just wanted to ask some advice of you. Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone? Like for example, $35/hour. I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, project planning, as opposed to actual development? Next, should there be a different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html. Also do you recommend padding hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html). I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps. I'll sometimes do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start. I'm hoping that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results. Cheers --Ali If the issue is whether or not you can quote a standardized rate to a client, my answer is an emphatic yes, and no, don't be greedy as in set the price on a job-specific basis. Often my clients hear me say that there are only two types of jobs: Brain surgery and Legwork. Brain surgery equates to I don't know how I'll deliver that but having been a paid programmer for 23 years, I'll be able to figure it out. Legwork is yeah been there done that... no problem. Either way this, to me, is just a function of time spent. I place a value on my time that I am happy earning no matter the task presented to me. So I make money. More importantly, the client comes back for the next job (and the next and the next...) because you have given them a baseline that they know they can count on. Your code spoke for itself so between the two you get customer loyalty that becomes a snowball rolling downhill. This strategy -- billing straight time at a single rate -- has worked so well for me that I'm now consistently booked solid. Actually have more work than I can handle, and all from long-term clients. First tried stemming the tide with a judiciously applied 50% rate increase. When that didn't work, I had to stop taking new clients. I'm still backed up at least a month. -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227816 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
I know ya asked Mattbut I've also been through the contracting ringer I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps. I'll sometimes do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start. I'm hoping that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results. First I admit I've done the same thing. Second I'll say that in my experience it just doesn't work well. Clients get a deal and run awayyes some are loyalbut they also don't want you so busy you can't do their work. My neighbour is a general contractor and we have our clinet bitch sessions over the fence all the time...and you know what...it seems that no matter what kind of contracting you do (building houses or apps) customers somehow think the normal rules of business do not apply. What I mean is you cannot walk into the grocery store and ask for a loaf of bread for 25 cents when it's a $1.50you'd simply never think of doing that. Well that's exactly what happens to us... 1) The initial budget is tight but when the project starts making money I'll kick some your way for add-ons. Yeah sure! 2) Can I pay you later beacuse I don't have the money right now? Ummm no...go ask the grocery store manager if you can pay later!! I think you see my point. When I 1st started contracting I had a hard time saying my rate out loadit was always the hardest part of the deal. What I've found over time is you have to be firm. Experience has taught me that I don't want the clients that aren't willing to pay my rate. My rate is fair given my experience. If you take on those folks that start your business relationship by complainig about your rateguess how much more complaining and nickel and diming strats to happen ;-) IMHO I'm not over priced...I know what I'm doing or can learn about it VERY quicklyI'm worth every penny. So just a little word of warning about the slippery slope of the dancing rate. All of the above of course goes out the window when you have to pay the rent and eat ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227821 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
Hi Ali, I set a single rate in stone. If I am talking on the telephone to a client, or writing them an email that is an assessment of a series of site mods they are requesting (billed 2 hrs of that this morning) or setting up a server or ... *whatever*. My time is worht X and that is what I charge for it. Your clients must be aware of this, and I keep shorthand notes of what I do with my time and submit them with my weekly invoices. I have gotten completely away from ANY sort of fixed-fee project and now do only hourly billing with project costs being ballpark-only (and then I try hard to come in under the ballpark I gave them). To do this successfully you have to have the trust of your client. They have to be confident you aren't padding the bill, and that if a job goes over initial estimates there is a good reason for this; not that you needed a new transmission on your car. As you build up time with a client and treat them more than fairly, this worry will disappear, but it makes for some edgy first jobs. Still, in the long run you wind up with a best-case for yourself where you are not working for free (underbid a job) or overcharging (it took less time than you thought). Thats the other side of this. If you estimate $1000 for something and it bills out to $50 because you had a brainstorm, then bill them $50 and take the mountain of good karma (and repeat business, and referrals) that comes from that. Hogs get fat. Pigs get slaughtered. I would not lowball people to get them in the door, and then jack up the rate. Thats perceived negatively no matter what you do, I think. Instead, price yourself competitively perhaps only a little below market, and stick to it throughout the relationship, perhaps with small annual increases. If you want a rate increase start the *next* customers out at the increased rate, which is now better justified by your extant stable of happy customers and body of work. Bryan said but they also don't want you so busy you can't do their work. Amen to that. what you wind up doing is slicing time for everyone and pleasing no one. Still, you have constant income and what you can then start doing is subcontracting. For example I farm out all design to a talented firm, and all basic CMS/HTML work (lots of customers with CMS systems with no time to manage them. Go figure.) to someone else. The next step, which I haven't done yet, is to bring in a CF coder. the trouble with expanding your staff is your clients want *you* to do the work if the relationship is right, and you're stepping away from them. Another challenge. Experience has taught me that I don't want the clients that aren't willing to pay my rate. My rate is fair given my experience. If you take on those folks that start your business relationship by complainig about your rateguess how much more complaining and nickel and diming strats to happen oh man is that ever true. I've got a guy right now that I *know* I should stay away from but I'm pot-committed in terms of the time I have spent on him already. Again you have to be firm, and ready to walk away if you must. Just some thoughts, -- --mattRobertson-- Janitor, MSB Web Systems mysecretbase.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227831 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
On 12/28/05, Ali Awan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I've been asking a similar question to no avail. I'm glad someone started this thread over here. As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on your own. I just wanted to ask some advice of you. Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone? Like for example, $35/hour. I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, project planning, as opposed to actual development? Next, should there be a different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html. Also do you recommend padding hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html). If you're running your own business, dealing with billing at all is a pain in the butt -- why make it *more* complex by adding multiple rate tiers. If a client sees you can do some work for $35 hour and other work for $50 hour, they'll assume you make money at $35/hour and why should they pay more. And from your perspective, it is smarter to pass on the $35/hour work and focus on the $50 instead :) I charge the same rate for everything -- sitting in a meeting, thinking through code on a plane, driving to a site, talking on the phone, doing code, fuming about something idiotic a client did. Regardless of what I'm doing for the client with the hour, it's still an hour I'm spending with them instead of someone else. Try going to a lawyer or accountant -- it's $300/hr in 6 min increments whether it's Hi how are the kids or How can I get paid by this scumbag client. I do know people who charge nusiance fees, but you have to be pretty darn in demand to really get away with that. But again, it keeps everyone doing what they want. In this specific instance, it's a West Coast Perl programmer who brings in about $150/hour -- but charges $300/hour for meetings. It certainly cuts down on the number of meetings he's determined to be *crucial* for and let's him focus on Perl There is nothing wrong though, with considering a discount for projects you actually *want* to work on. Want to in the sense of I'm really into that as opposed to I'm horribly desperate for work!. I do some work with a medical group that devises clinical treatments for kids with psych problems -- if their grant has $8k instead of the $10k that they'd need for one specific project, we both tend to work it out b/c I like the work and they let me really try out things with them. I've also done some progressive political work at a discount for causes I was into. But you've got to be careful you don't pro bono yourself into the poor house. If you want to work completely for free, you'd be better off building up some tech credit working on an open source project than giving a freebie to a client. I'm trying to establish a loyal customer base, in baby steps. I'll sometimes do small projects for free, or for a very low flat-fee, to start. I'm hoping that once they are blown away by the results, I'll get referrals, and the clients will be more than happy to pay a higher rate based on proven results. How's that worked for you? I'm guessing not all that well. Cheers -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:227833 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: A Contractor or Two
lol John pro bono yourself into the poor house. Excellent quote. :-) Someone, I think Matt or Bryan said it best. Be firm (aka confident) in your rate. I once was shy about my rate but I'm well worth it in many arenas so now I DO NOT budge my rate for anyone. What I will do is shave hours down but I won't change my rate, unless they retain me (extra incentive). [to add to the client stories] I have a client right now that is becoming a big pain. They let me know if the quote (I sent last night and revised today) was too high they'd have to walk. Well, since I don't have a nuisance fee (lol) I could really care less. They've offered to bring more clients our way and everything in lieu of us, in my words, giving away work or doing it for beans (with no franks). The bottom line is...we're prepared to let the client go. They want high quality work and we provided that, and then some. We even gave away about $2000 worth of free work because we REALLY wanted to help them get their site up. BUT, I guess that doesn't matter in their eyes. lol. I'd like to second that using multiple rates is a pain. Quickbooks makes it quite easy for you which is fine but its a huge pain for you keep up with who pays what for what. Keep 1 rate...maybe 2. We've charged different rates for meetings before (def helps keep down the # of meetings and the length) but all dev rates are the same. Whether we're doing CF, Flash, Flex, JS, PHP, or HTML...its $X and not a penny less. Someone noted they did free work to build up a portfolio...this is GREAT. Its hard to say Pay me $100/hr when you don't have any work to show for it. As time passes you will increase your rate. Just be professional about how you approach rate increases and let your clients know at the beginning of your relationship, preferably in writing, that rate increases are possible and how it will affect them. (not to go on and on but one more thing) That leads me to another great point. PUT IT ALL IN WRITING! When it comes down to it you need some documents to back your claims for what the client owes you for. Be as detailed as possible. Hope that helps... On 12/28/05, John Paul Ashenfelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/28/05, Ali Awan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I've been asking a similar question to no avail. I'm glad someone started this thread over here. As it seems from your post that you have quite some experience doing this on your own. I just wanted to ask some advice of you. Do you suggest having a set hourly rate, set in stone? Like for example, $35/hour. I guess what I am wondering is if there should be different rates based on, project planning, as opposed to actual development? Next, should there be a different rate for database development, versus application development (PHP, ColdFusion, Java coding), versus graphic design, versus straight html. Also do you recommend padding hours, based on the above (padding slightly higher for database, or CF Code, as opposed to html). If you're running your own business, dealing with billing at all is a pain in the butt -- why make it *more* complex by adding multiple rate tiers. If a client sees you can do some work for $35 hour and other work for $50 hour, they'll assume you make money at $35/hour and why should they pay more. And from your perspective, it is smarter to pass on the $35/hour work and focus on the $50 instead :) I charge the same rate for everything -- sitting in a meeting, thinking through code on a plane, driving to a site, talking on the phone, doing code, fuming about something idiotic a client did. Regardless of what I'm doing for the client with the hour, it's still an hour I'm spending with them instead of someone else. Try going to a lawyer or accountant -- it's $300/hr in 6 min increments whether it's Hi how are the kids or How can I get paid by this scumbag client. I do know people who charge nusiance fees, but you have to be pretty darn in demand to really get away with that. But again, it keeps everyone doing what they want. In this specific instance, it's a West Coast Perl programmer who brings in about $150/hour -- but charges $300/hour for meetings. It certainly cuts down on the number of meetings he's determined to be *crucial* for and let's him focus on Perl There is nothing wrong though, with considering a discount for projects you actually *want* to work on. Want to in the sense of I'm really into that as opposed to I'm horribly desperate for work!. I do some work with a medical group that devises clinical treatments for kids with psych problems -- if their grant has $8k instead of the $10k that they'd need for one specific project, we both tend to work it out b/c I like the work and they let me really try out things with them. I've also done some progressive political work at a discount for causes I was into. But you've got to be careful you don't pro bono yourself into the poor house. If you want to work
