Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I'm not sure how HTML, CSS, or other browser related topics could possibly be off topic... Could they? Calvin - Original Message - From: Kevin Graeme To: CF-Talk Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Depends on what type of CSS work we are talking about. Just basic non-positional CSS seems to be interoperable. Further, I am not sure what you mean in regard to session management as that is a server-side issue. I apologize to everyone if this browser discussion is too off topic. I'll address what I think is a CF issue first. With session management, IIRC it has to do with how each window in IE is a separate application instance while in Netscape there is only one application instance with separate windows. (If I'm off on that, I'm sure someone will jump down my throat. It's been a while since we dealt with it explicitly and my memory is shoddy.) As for CSS, using CSS that works in Firefox is not guaranteed to work in other browsers. Unfortunate, but true. Saying you want to limit what CSS we're talking about changes the argument from if it works in Firefox, then it will work anywhere to some things that work in Firefox work in IE. And really, since that's CSS and not CF I'm done arguing the point here. -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
What other resources do people use to guestimate browser penetration and usage? Thanks, Calvin - Original Message - From: Erik Yowell To: CF-Talk Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) My 2 cents - when typically designing for john q. public, I usually hit something like thecounter.com: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php I figure that 35 million (w/ 95% saturation) is a good enough of a statistical number to warrant using IE as my dev browser and greatest common factor of presentation, but hey - that's just me. Erik Yowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shortfusemedia.com -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
eloquently stated erik.I couldn't agree more.why fight the tide...its wasted effort. I don't think it is wasted, people listen to us as IT professionals :-) and when people ask about a browser, I direct them to Mozilla Firefox these days. Already started converting all our people to using it, even through our Intranet is meant to support IE, I just point em to the UserAgentSwitcher extension and tell them to set it to IE6 Soz, my tuppence worth... have a good weekend everybody -- David [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE none. why fight that tide?why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? just why? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 8:26 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) eloquently stated erik.I couldn't agree more.why fight the tide...its wasted effort. I don't think it is wasted, people listen to us as IT professionals :-) and when people ask about a browser, I direct them to Mozilla Firefox these days. Already started converting all our people to using it, even through our Intranet is meant to support IE, I just point em to the UserAgentSwitcher extension and tell them to set it to IE6 Soz, my tuppence worth... have a good weekend everybody -- David [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
That's plain horrible. If your intranet is supposed to use IE as a browser, what happens if a system comes in that specifically uses a quirk that IE supports and your new fangled browser doesn't? The system will get blamed for not working, but in fact it is a browser issue that you have instigated. Also all people on your intranet should be using the same 'build' not being allowed to install what they want (web developers should have admin rights to their machine only.) Adam -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 March 2004 13:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) eloquently stated erik.I couldn't agree more.why fight the tide...its wasted effort. I don't think it is wasted, people listen to us as IT professionals :-) and when people ask about a browser, I direct them to Mozilla Firefox these days. Already started converting all our people to using it, even through our Intranet is meant to support IE, I just point em to the UserAgentSwitcher extension and tell them to set it to IE6 Soz, my tuppence worth... have a good weekend everybody -- David [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Tony Weeg wrote: but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE none. why fight that tide?why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? just why? Develop for Firefox/bird and you'll find that 99% of the time it will work in IE and in Nutscrape (even across OS too!Just did this for a recent site redesign).Reason being that Firefox is much more strict on HTML/XHTML/etc standards than IE or Nutscrape. You can develop any old rubbish (some developers do) for IE and it'll work in IE, but when you look at it in Nutscrape or any other browser it displays like a bag of bolts.Frankly using quirks of one browser type is just plain bad practice and bad application development. And thats before you get into discussions about how quickly pages are rendered in the Firefox and all the other superb features that it has (pop-up blocking as standard to name but one). Yeh - Firefox has its faults but its getting there and you can see from the stats that its picking up interest and following rapidly. If you really must use ActiveX components, then there is an extension for Firefox/Mozilla that will let you use them with Firefox. Really you shouldn't develop anything for a specific browser, including intranets where the company has a specific browser on all computers throughout the building.What happens if an employee wants to access the intranet from a client site and the client is using Nutscrape and you've got that wizzy code that use a quirk of IE??The employee gets to look like a right numpty in front of the client...Great My 2p too... ;o) Stephen PS. Sorry if I'm repeating stuff thats already been said in the thread. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
That's plain horrible. Yip :-) The system will get blamed for not working, but in fact it is a browser issue that you have instigated. Soz, should have qualified that a bit better... I said ' Already started converting all our people to using it...' What I should have said is... 'Already started 'converting' ITS folk that have admin access to their machines to using it' Also all people on your intranet should be using the same 'build' not being allowed to install what they want (web developers should have admin rights to their machine only.) That's the way it works in here I hear what your saying about our Intranet being IE only and getting people to use the 'new fangled browser', but I am prepared as a web developer to suffer both IE and Firefox when developing any new apps to try and make sure that the reliance on IE is phased out gradually of course I test in IE as well but the quirks of IE should be well avoided for any new apps in my opinion. Cheers -- David [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE Well on a Mac at least IE blows. But anyway, more to the point; when IE took over as the default browser innovation stopped. It is amazing how shitty IE is in comparison to the functionality found in Safari or Mozilla. why fight that tide? why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? Because competition is good. If everyone felt like you then nothing would ever improve. -Matt [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
of course not.why not make ie better?if its already the leader...why not work to make ie better? and the bottom line is...and im done after this, I know you all are happy... its not about us, and our small existence as developers...its about our viewers...and what they use, I feel like I must use... thats all. have a great effin weekend everyone! later.. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 9:27 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE Well on a Mac at least IE blows. But anyway, more to the point; when IE took over as the default browser innovation stopped. It is amazing how shitty IE is in comparison to the functionality found in Safari or Mozilla. why fight that tide? why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using somethingelse? Because competition is good. If everyone felt like you then nothing would ever improve. -Matt [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Can we cut this short? Yes there are issues with browsers. The original question was looking for recommendations on a browser for development. Suggestions were made. Now the thread is devolving into the same old browser bitching. Can we please not beat this horse? -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
of course not. why not make ie better? if its already the leader...why not work to make ie better? I'm sorry, but it is basic economic fact that the rate at which IE will change while it holds a monopoly is slower than if their was healthy competition. its not about us, and our small existence as developers...its about our viewers...and what they use, I feel like I must use... Users don't know any better, but once they figure out what they are missing they will switch. For example, my wife was surfing on my Mac the other day and couldn't figure out what was different. Then she realized she wasn't seeing any popup adds. I explained the difference between IE and Safari. She immediately wanted to switch to Firefox on he PC show she could get the benefits of popup blocking and tabs. I didn't force her to switch or even suggest it. It was just clear to her which browser offered the better experience. -Matt [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
The development is usually targetted to the lowest common denominator. Intranets particularly have issues with having to supporte.g. Netscape 4.7 So your sites have to be targetted at that level. Should an intranet with over 2000 machines dictate IE5 as the build to which all machines should run, then IT support has to support that build. Again this is more an IT support issue, but from an Intranet site development point of view, knowing what the base browser is is very important. Adam -Original Message- From: Stephen Moretti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 March 2004 14:19 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Develop for Firefox/bird and you'll find that 99% of the time it will work in IE and in Nutscrape (even across OS too!Just did this for a recent site redesign).Reason being that Firefox is much more strict on HTML/XHTML/etc standards than IE or Nutscrape. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
www.echoecho.com has some stats on browser stuff pulled from logs from some different sites. John -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Tony Weeg wrote: of course not.why not make ie better?if its already the leader...why not work to make ie better? You have got to be kidding. Have you ever even tried to make IE better by for instance reporting a bug? If so, please tell us how much success you had. The bottom line is that Open Source browsers are the only ones that actually make it possible to work with them and make them better. From Microsoft all you will ever hear is that is not a bug, that is a feature and if you happen to have sufficient licenses to be escalated to gazilionth line support they might be honest enough to say we can not comment on your issue because then you can sue us. And no, none of the issues I reported has ever been fixed, but Microsoft still happily claims on their website to be 100% CSS Level 1 compliant. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
jochem, are you kidding??? im the one that got the spinning e put in the browser, I told them that the floating window looked bad... tony -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:40 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Tony Weeg wrote: of course not.why not make ie better?if its already the leader...why not work to make ie better? You have got to be kidding. Have you ever even tried to make IE better by for instance reporting a bug? If so, please tell us how much success you had. The bottom line is that Open Source browsers are the only ones that actually make it possible to work with them and make them better. From Microsoft all you will ever hear is that is not a bug, that is a feature and if you happen to have sufficient licenses to be escalated to gazilionth line support they might be honest enough to say we can not comment on your issue because then you can sue us. And no, none of the issues I reported has ever been fixed, but Microsoft still happily claims on their website to be 100% CSS Level 1 compliant. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Tony Weeg wrote: jochem, are you kidding??? No, I am very serious. Box model bugs, background positioning bugs, border collapse bugs, nothing ever gets confirmed, let alone fixed. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
box model bugs? what are box models? border collapse bugs? whats that? background positioning bugs? what wrong there? -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Tony Weeg wrote: jochem, are you kidding??? No, I am very serious. Box model bugs, background positioning bugs, border collapse bugs, nothing ever gets confirmed, let alone fixed. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
That's all CSS stuff that true CSS Standard followers bemoan -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:59 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) box model bugs? what are box models? border collapse bugs? whats that? background positioning bugs? what wrong there? -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Tony Weeg wrote: jochem, are you kidding??? No, I am very serious. Box model bugs, background positioning bugs, border collapse bugs, nothing ever gets confirmed, let alone fixed. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I liked the tabbed browsing in Navigator. I use half Navigator and half IE. However; you have a good point.If 99% of the visitors are IE based, then.. I wouldn't want to waste my time on Navigator development. At 12:01 PM 3/5/2004, you wrote: Subject: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) From: Tony Weeg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:31:11 -0500 Thread: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm/method=messagesthreadid=31011forumid=4#155483 but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE none. why fight that tide?why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? just why? -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Aaron Skye, Guitarist / Songwriter mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- AIM: Reboog711| Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com Recording Music: http://www.fcfstudios.com Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I've been hesitant to jump in here for obvious reasons (holy war and whatnot)... but I'm hardly a CSS zealot.I only use the most basic of CSS elements (one of which I do believe is padding). >From http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack: quote According to the W3C, an assigned 'width' (and 'height') of a box refers to the 'content area' of a box only. The padding, borders, and margins are then added to this value to arrive at the total box width. If the 'width' property is omitted, the total box width is the same as the 'content area' of the surrounding container element. All well and good. Unfortunately, all CSS enabled versions of IE before IE6/strict use a different box model. In that model, the padding and borders are counted as part of any assigned 'width' or 'height'. In the absence of borders and padding, the two models agree. However, if a box has an assigned width', and if borders and/or padding are added, the standard box model causes the overall box width (between the outer border edges) to increase, while in IE's model the 'content area' gets squeezed by the same amount. This is a major problem for proper page layout. /quote Don't mistake the box model issue to be a problem only encountered by those who use pure table-less layouts.If you've not run into it, more power to ya.But I'd venture a guess (and that's all that it is, I have no scientific data to back this up) that you're in the minority. - Original Message - From: Tim Laureska [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) That's all CSS stuff that true CSS Standard followers bemoan -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:59 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) box model bugs? what are box models? border collapse bugs? whats that? background positioning bugs? what wrong there? -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) Tony Weeg wrote: jochem, are you kidding??? No, I am very serious. Box model bugs, background positioning bugs, border collapse bugs, nothing ever gets confirmed, let alone fixed. Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I believe the position being suggested is that you could develop against Firefox and have the result work with both browsers as opposed to developing against IE, which might mean the result will only work with IE. IE may have more market share, but if a change in your development practices has no negative effects, but provides the benefit of higher market share, why wouldn't you do it? -Matt On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:15 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote: I liked the tabbed browsing in Navigator. I use half Navigator and half IE. However; you have a good point. If 99% of the visitors are IE based, then.. I wouldn't want to waste my time on Navigator development. At 12:01 PM 3/5/2004, you wrote: Subject: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) From: Tony Weeg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:31:11 -0500 Thread: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm/ method=messagesthreadid=31011forumid=4#155483 but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE none. why fight that tide? why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? just why? -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Aaron Skye, Guitarist / Songwriter mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com Recording Music: http://www.fcfstudios.com Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I believe the position being suggested is that you could develop against Firefox and have the result work with both browsers as opposed to developing against IE, which might mean the result will only work with IE. IE may have more market share, but if a change in your development practices has no negative effects, but provides the benefit of higher market share, why wouldn't you do it? Because that position is flawed. Anyone who has done any work with CSS knows that just because it works in Firefox doesn't mean it will work in IE. If you don't care about CSS, then how about session management? That's handled differently as well. GAH! Stupid thread. -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Because that position is flawed. Anyone who has done any work with CSS knows that just because it works in Firefox doesn't mean it will work in IE. If you don't care about CSS, then how about session management? That's handled differently as well. Depends on what type of CSS work we are talking about. Just basic non-positional CSS seems to be interoperable. Further, I am not sure what you mean in regard to session management as that is a server-side issue. -Matt [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Ok, now I feel bad. I was really just curious what peoples logs showed for browser % - I didn't mean to incite a riot. It seems like there are those who focus on development and those who focus on commerce. Development guys choose Firefox / Mozilla / Opera / Safari etc because they are better products; commerce people choose IE because they say it reaches the larger audience. Neither are wrong. I have come to the conclusion that if you cater to (or lock sites down to) IE you get a lot of IE hits - this stands to reason, so I would think its a bit self fulfilling. I really just wanted to know what your logs said :-) Firefox / Mozilla / Opera / Safari user be happy you found the light and don't worry about IE users IE users enjoy the popups and errors like object expected, while you are counting your cash. -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Depends on what type of CSS work we are talking about. Just basic non-positional CSS seems to be interoperable. Further, I am not sure what you mean in regard to session management as that is a server-side issue. I apologize to everyone if this browser discussion is too off topic. I'll address what I think is a CF issue first. With session management, IIRC it has to do with how each window in IE is a separate application instance while in Netscape there is only one application instance with separate windows. (If I'm off on that, I'm sure someone will jump down my throat. It's been a while since we dealt with it explicitly and my memory is shoddy.) As for CSS, using CSS that works in Firefox is not guaranteed to work in other browsers. Unfortunate, but true. Saying you want to limit what CSS we're talking about changes the argument from if it works in Firefox, then it will work anywhere to some things that work in Firefox work in IE. And really, since that's CSS and not CF I'm done arguing the point here. -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Kevin Graeme wrote: With session management, IIRC it has to do with how each window in IE is a separate application instance while in Netscape there is only one application instance with separate windows. (If I'm off on that, I'm sure someone will jump down my throat. It's been a while since we dealt with it explicitly and my memory is shoddy.) jump In IE, windows opened from another IE instance run in the same process as the parent. They share cookies. However, windows opened from a link to the iexplorer executable run as separate processes. They don't share session cookies. All FireFox windows share the same process and the same cookies. /jump Jochem -- I don't get it immigrants don't work and steal our jobs - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
In IE, windows opened from another IE instance run in the same process as the parent. They share cookies. However, windows opened from a link to the iexplorer executable run as separate processes. They don't share session cookies. All FireFox windows share the same process and the same cookies. don't knock that feature ;-) we had an app recently that required a user be able to open a new session of the app anytime they wanted. drove us nuts until we found this feature. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Good points! I can remember when IBM ruled the mainframe world (96% market share) And, Altair, Northstar, IBM, Compaq ruled the micros. Those who fail to innovate, die -- the big ones just take longer. Dick On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:26 AM, Matt Liotta wrote: but I cant find ANY good reason not to use IE Well on a Mac at least IE blows. But anyway, more to the point; when IE took over as the default browser innovation stopped. It is amazing how shitty IE is in comparison to the functionality found in Safari or Mozilla. why fight that tide? why develop on something just because you like it better, when the lions share of your visitors will be using something else? Because competition is good. If everyone felt like you then nothing would ever improve. -Matt [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
I usually develop with IE on a PC, but I would really like a browser that shows me the *time* taken to request each object in a web request. Also, if it could show me the http headers of the request and response, that would be sweet. I've currently got a page thats slow and I think its network latency, but I'm not sure what the best tool is for timing the response. There's got to be some good software out there for this task. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
Mozilla Firefox. Check out the extensions. Nick [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
If you install Firefox 0.8 from mozilla.org there's a plugin available LiveHTTPheaders that will show the header information. Not sure about the time taken to request each object though :( Firefox supports tab browsing and loads of other stuff, I stopped using IE as my default weeks ago!! http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/livehttpheaders -Original Message- From: Jon Block [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 March 2004 14:59 To: CF-Talk Subject: Can someone recommend a good web development browser? I usually develop with IE on a PC, but I would really like a browser that shows me the *time* taken to request each object in a web request. Also, if it could show me the http headers of the request and response, that would be sweet. I've currently got a page thats slow and I think its network latency, but I'm not sure what the best tool is for timing the response. There's got to be some good software out there for this task. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
www.mozilla.org/products/firefox Look at the extensions as well... especially the web dev one..superb -- dc [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
d, On 3/4/2004 at 10:25, you wrote: dacrau www.mozilla.org/products/firefox dacrau Look at the extensions as well... especially the web dev one.. dacrau superb If you're doing JS work, I think FireFox's JS console is a life saver. ~ Ubqtous ~ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
I usually develop with IE on a PC, but I would really like a browser that shows me the *time* taken to request each object in a web request. Also, if it could show me the http headers of the request and response, that would be sweet. I've currently got a page thats slow and I think its network latency, but I'm not sure what the best tool is for timing the response. There's got to be some good software out there for this task. While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?
Kevin Graeme wrote: I usually develop with IE on a PC, but I would really like a browser that shows me the *time* taken to request each object in a web request. Also, if it could show me the http headers of the request and response, that would be sweet. I've currently got a page thats slow and I think its network latency, but I'm not sure what the best tool is for timing the response. There's got to be some good software out there for this task. While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. I've been using Firefox for close to a year (and Mozilla before that); IE stopped being my default browser back in '01 when I realized it didn't have the features I wanted (e.g., reliability, standards compliance, tabbed browsing, built-in popup blocking, strict privacy controls, etc). There are a couple of features in FF that are absolutely essential.The JS console is a life safer -- much better at degugging than MS's tools. Also, there is an extension which will add View this page in IE to the context menu, so that on the rare occasions that you do need to view a page in IE, you can launch it straight from FF.It's been very helpful. -- Richard S. Crawford Programmer III, UC Davis Extension Distance Learning Group (http://unexdlc.ucdavis.edu) (916)327-7793 / [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
I've got this for the month of February (~2M hits total): 85.46% MSIE 6.0 4.28%MSIE 5.0 4.16%MSIE 5.5 1.67%Mozilla/5.0 That's 93.9% MSIE 5.0 or better. On a couple smaller sites I've got 98% and 93.3% MSIE 5.0 or better. Least for me, that 90% is too LOW.I haven't looked at your site in depth, but it seemed there was a lot of stuff that would be interesting to the geeks of the world, who undoubtedly have a much higher incidence of non-MS browsers, because they care enough to compare and select the best, unlike the general public with has the intelligence of lemmings. Cheers, barneyb -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
97% IE 1.5% Netscape 1.5% other As a side note almost every one that comes to my sites are using AOL. Phillip B Rob wrote: The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 16:37, Phill wrote: 97% IE 1.5% Netscape 1.5% other oof between you and barney I am starting to feel like I live in a bubble :) crushing... just crushing -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Though it is a desirable bubble, so don't lose heart.;) -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 16:37, Phill wrote: 97% IE 1.5% Netscape 1.5% other oof between you and barney I am starting to feel like I live in a bubble :) crushing... just crushing -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? Yeah, I was talking about my sites. They vary somewhat by audience, but nothing as dramatic as yours. -Kevin [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
- Original Message - From: Kevin Graeme To: CF-Talk Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? Yeah, I was talking about my sites. They vary somewhat by audience, but nothing as dramatic as yours. In looking at some of the ones I host the percentages vary. Motorcycle parts:m 95% Internet Explorer High School reunion site = 95 % IE Linux consulting site79% IE Assorted user groups 32 - 42 % IE [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
My 2 cents - when typically designing for john q. public, I usually hit something like thecounter.com: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php I figure that 35 million (w/ 95% saturation) is a good enough of a statistical number to warrant using IE as my dev browser and greatest common factor of presentation, but hey - that's just me. Erik Yowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shortfusemedia.com -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
eloquently stated erik.I couldn't agree more.why fight the tide...its wasted effort. tony r e v o l u t i o n w e b d e s i g n [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.revolutionwebdesign.com its only looks good to those who can see bad as well -anonymous -Original Message- From: Erik Yowell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) My 2 cents - when typically designing for john q. public, I usually hit something like thecounter.com: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php I figure that 35 million (w/ 95% saturation) is a good enough of a statistical number to warrant using IE as my dev browser and greatest common factor of presentation, but hey - that's just me. Erik Yowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shortfusemedia.com -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?)
Hmmm ... but it's important to understand with these stats sites where their data is coming from. One i looked at pointed out that the data was derived from all the people coming to look at the statistics site itself -- a group of programmers and developers that all had the latest browsers. I was shocked to find in my stats that a lot more than 0% were looking at my site using Netscape 4.x - probably using computers that you hand crank to start in the morning! Nevertheless, on the ground the percentages seem to vary a lot more than one would think. -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 4:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) eloquently stated erik.I couldn't agree more.why fight the tide...its wasted effort. tony r e v o l u t i o n w e b d e s i g n [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.revolutionwebdesign.com its only looks good to those who can see bad as well -anonymous -Original Message- From: Erik Yowell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:38 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) My 2 cents - when typically designing for john q. public, I usually hit something like thecounter.com: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php I figure that 35 million (w/ 95% saturation) is a good enough of a statistical number to warrant using IE as my dev browser and greatest common factor of presentation, but hey - that's just me. Erik Yowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shortfusemedia.com -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: Browser wars (was Re: Can someone recommend a good web development browser?) On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 15:53, Richard Crawford wrote: While I prefer the Mozilla browsers and Opera technically, I find I always end up coming back to IE just because I have to make sure the site works for my 90%+ userbase. If I were to just spot test in IE I would miss something that I don't explicitly test for. The stats for my main public site are: 68.05% Micro$oft Internet Exploder 25.53% Netscape REST: google/opera and other things Thats a far cry from 90%. You're probably talking about your site - but I was wondering what others are getting in their logs? Whats the general take on the browser (cold) war? The news lies - The logs don't ... often -- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
