RE: CF Shopping carts
You said you wanted to make it framework agnostic, why not do something that uses the concepts of a framework, but not the actual framework. Back when I was working at AT&T, due to their insanely paranoid server restrictions, we couldn't use the actual fusebox tags, so instead, we simulated fusebox. Instead of using the fusebox tags, we used if then else blocks to accomplish the task and kept the conventions used in fusebox like having separate files for queries, logic, and display elements. We even used the url conventions like fuseaction to determine what page we were executing. This gave us the benefits of using fusebox with its modularity and keeping the different operational layers separate, but it didn't require that fusebox was actually installed. It also introduces some good naming conventions that many people are already familiar with. This lends to the modular model and makes it easier plug items into the structure without breaking other parts. Eric -Original Message- From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:12 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > (a one CFC convention-based DI 'framework' in the spirit of FW/1). Yes, I like that idea a lot. FW/1 has inspired me in many ways, the most important thing it has taught me is that conventions, when they are fully understood in a framework-- is the best ways to build things. It is all too easy to fall into the trap of changing my own patterns, but if my app is all built with a standard naming/structure convention like FW/1 half the battle of complexity is already solved. cfpayment is on the list for sure-- that is also a major part of the puzzle solved. I know it may be hard to make a cart both simple, and fully loaded, but I do think that it can be done, as long as everything is built as highly specialized services and business objects-- Like Sean mentioned, a simple central DI service could in fact manage a cart, and frankly I don't feel any part of a cart is that complex that it could not be done as units. A lot of what we need for this has already been done 1000x over-- in CF and many other languages, so we do not really need to reinvent the cart-- we just need to model it with a consensus based standard so its not hard to use it. There are code bases in CF already that are way more complex than a cart/checkout system, so this should actually become better than any system available to CF. Content management-- CRM, POS, Bar-codes, Processing integrations (pic pack ship), database support etc.. all can be modular-- After all, the whole process is just TEXT-- from the customer adding to the cart, to processing the order-- it is all in fact just simple text. The most complicated middle-ware I have ever built even for stores with hundreds of thousands of products and customers all boiled down to getting 2 systems to talk to each other with some type of TEXT. CSV.. meet SQL XML... meet CSV.. EXCEL... meet XML 159,567 row-daily-inventory-comma-delimited-with-every-known-?-character-known-to-WO RD-along-with-commas-tabs,',",-,~,*,#- from 15 year old DOS based Legacy systems--- meet OSC Its all text man. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334953 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
> > (a one CFC convention-based DI 'framework' in the spirit of FW/1). Yes, I like that idea a lot. FW/1 has inspired me in many ways, the most important thing it has taught me is that conventions, when they are fully understood in a framework-- is the best ways to build things. It is all too easy to fall into the trap of changing my own patterns, but if my app is all built with a standard naming/structure convention like FW/1 half the battle of complexity is already solved. cfpayment is on the list for sure-- that is also a major part of the puzzle solved. I know it may be hard to make a cart both simple, and fully loaded, but I do think that it can be done, as long as everything is built as highly specialized services and business objects-- Like Sean mentioned, a simple central DI service could in fact manage a cart, and frankly I don't feel any part of a cart is that complex that it could not be done as units. A lot of what we need for this has already been done 1000x over-- in CF and many other languages, so we do not really need to reinvent the cart-- we just need to model it with a consensus based standard so its not hard to use it. There are code bases in CF already that are way more complex than a cart/checkout system, so this should actually become better than any system available to CF. Content management-- CRM, POS, Bar-codes, Processing integrations (pic pack ship), database support etc.. all can be modular-- After all, the whole process is just TEXT-- from the customer adding to the cart, to processing the order-- it is all in fact just simple text. The most complicated middle-ware I have ever built even for stores with hundreds of thousands of products and customers all boiled down to getting 2 systems to talk to each other with some type of TEXT. CSV.. meet SQL XML... meet CSV.. EXCEL... meet XML 159,567 row-daily-inventory-comma-delimited-with-every-known-?-character-known-to-WORD-along-with-commas-tabs,',",-,~,*,#- from 15 year old DOS based Legacy systems--- meet OSC Its all text man. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334952 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Denny, > Alright, this is sounding pretty freaking good. Yeah, cfpayment is really amazing. I am always surprised that it doesn't get more attention that it does. > Leveraging cfpayment sounds excellent, and we could toss in some i18n > stuff right from the beginning as well... I haven't thought about i18n yet. I should get to that at some point... > Did you use any other community projects (like coldspring) when > building your cart, Steve? That is a good question. In the major drawback of my project (for some), it was a pretty major case of eating my own dog food. Since I really built this to meet the needs of my clients, I built it on top of my own framework (also FOSS). This works great for me, but it means that one has to use my framework to take advantage of my shopping cart. Naturally, I think my own framework is an advantage (I may be biased), but I can certainly see how that would be a drawback to some. A bit about the framework itself, if anyone is interested: http://www.bryantwebconsulting.com/blog/index.cfm/2010/6/1/Another-Fun-Framework I'll try to get some documentation on the cart itself as soon as I am able. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334949 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Sean Corfield wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:26 PM, denstar wrote: >> What do folks think about ColdSpring? I don't really think of it as a >> framework, but it is, I recon. Does that make using it verboten for a >> project like this? I see good things either way, so... just curious. > > I'm a huge fan of ColdSpring but I think it would be an unnecessary > dependency for a project like this. You might get away with LightWire > (it's just one CFC at the core) or a do-it-yourself simple bean > factory, depending on how critical autowiring and dependency injection > really are. Or you could drop in ioc/1 or di/1 or whatever I end up > calling it when it is released (a one CFC convention-based DI > 'framework' in the spirit of FW/1). For something like a shopping cart, it seems like DI (and maybe AOP) might be pretty cool, but it is a different way of doing things, so to speak, and different can be hard to do. FWIW, I think dependency / package management will be important areas in the future, as more and more cool stuff emerges, but that's really besides the point. It's going to be hard to have a really good, *and* really simple cart, basically. :-/ :Den -- Good writers are of necessity rare. George Henry L ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334946 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:26 PM, denstar wrote: > What do folks think about ColdSpring? I don't really think of it as a > framework, but it is, I recon. Does that make using it verboten for a > project like this? I see good things either way, so... just curious. I'm a huge fan of ColdSpring but I think it would be an unnecessary dependency for a project like this. You might get away with LightWire (it's just one CFC at the core) or a do-it-yourself simple bean factory, depending on how critical autowiring and dependency injection really are. Or you could drop in ioc/1 or di/1 or whatever I end up calling it when it is released (a one CFC convention-based DI 'framework' in the spirit of FW/1). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret At ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334945 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Alright, this is sounding pretty freaking good. Coincidentally, I now need a shopping cart too. I /was/ going to reuse an old, pretty decent one, but it's sorta geared towards Model-Glue, and I never really tested the lofty framework agnostic aims it aspired to. Using a community based one for a MG "actionpack" would be more in the original spirit, anyways. Leveraging cfpayment sounds excellent, and we could toss in some i18n stuff right from the beginning as well... What do folks think about ColdSpring? I don't really think of it as a framework, but it is, I recon. Does that make using it verboten for a project like this? I see good things either way, so... just curious. Did you use any other community projects (like coldspring) when building your cart, Steve? :Denny -- Books minister to our knowledge, to our guidance, and to our delight, by their truth, their uprightness, and their art. George Henry Lewes On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Steve Bryant wrote: > > I just finished deploying a shopping cart on a second. I am planning to > release it as FOSS as soon as I get a little bit of documentation written. > > In writing it, I used cfpayment (http://cfpayment.riaforge.org/). It provides > an abstraction layer to several payment gateways and it is easy to add new > payment gateways if the one you need isn't supported. > > It is an amazing project and really saved me time. I would highly recommend > that anyone endeavoring to build their own cart in ColdFusion check it out. > > Steve ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334944 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Robertson wrote: > > Well, I guess it is a bag-on-Eric thread after all. I still say it's a mindset. :-) And just to take a second and address the "not free" thoughts: *The following comments are aimed at a mindset, not specific people.* It is 100% possible to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, with 0 investment of money. Besides the easy way of having the client pay for the needed resources, there's *all kinds* of ways to get stuff "for free". Lots of places will donate computers if you've got a worthy cause. Sometimes just to get them off their hands and for tax purposes, even. Same goes for software, and really, just about anything you can think of. People are human, and humans can be pretty awesome. My first "whole" computer (I'd built many from scratch prior) I got after doing a Wiccan spell. I kid you not. Of course, I worked towards the spell's goal, as pretty much everything in that category requires (you don't just sit and pray, you pray and try, so to speak). I was doing volunteer work at the time. Not 100% volunteer, because I was getting paid in food, but the food was just a bonus. I love what I do. That I can make money (or get free food) doing it is just mind blowing. Everyone should "love their job" (maybe. It's a little harder to draw lines when you enjoy it so. ). Anyways, I wanted a new computer, and I also wanted to test wiccan spells. I did the spell, and then kept my eyes open, so to speak. The volunteer work led to some excess hardware, which I was able to in turn trade for new hardware. Things just kept falling into place. God talks to me through coincidence. Or, more specifically, synchronicity. Or maybe it's aliens or my subconscious or something, I haven't really nailed that one down. But for sure the key is coincidence. If I'd ignored the "messages from the Universe", or wrote them off as being "mere coincidence", I never would have gotten to where I am today. I'd be slinging drugs or flipping burgers or some such (or maybe a billionaire, who knows, really, but I digress, as this is a story...). So my advice is to Listen, as the Universe speaks to us all the time. Woohaa! :Denny -- Jesus, did you see what GOD just did to us man?? -Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (the movie) ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334943 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Well, no one can say that CFML coders are not a passionate group thats for sure. To everyone participating in this conversation-- I have much respect-- and I do mean everyone. Times are tough everywhere right now, and we all need to group together and stay focused on what we believe in and what we know works. I don't think anyone meant to single anyone else out with what was said, so please don't let the popular consensus distract you, we can all still get along just fine even if we don't always see eye to eye. So anyone actually participating has my 100% respect, I don't hold grudges and I know sometimes we will all disagree on things and we can still all move forward with our objectives. Lets focus this passion on something constructive that we can all benefit from-- this ball is rolling and picking up momentum, lets put some wind at its back and push it along :) This group rocks! -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334942 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
> Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so. I'm sorry to hear that. But if you're forced to do something, and you want to do it successfully, you may have to change your expectations, etc. > And just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist. No, the fact that I share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist. Something else does, though. Sean's statement is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes the world as it is, it doesn't say the world should be this way or that. If you want to do certain things, and those things require you to buy tools, you can't do those things unless you can afford the tools. That's just the way it is. I'm sure Sean would also like to spend less money buying tools, and I know I would. But no one's giving away free computers, and no one's giving away all sorts of other things I need to do my job. So I buy what I need to buy, or I don't take the job. And if you look at the general prices of software development tools, $200 is on the low end. It's not as low-end as free, of course, but again, you have to look at what other non-free software costs for your comparison. Again, not elitism, just an observation that you can confirm by spending half an hour on cdw.com or pparadise.com, etc. And custom packages, etc, for CF are kind of a niche anyway, so if I wanted to build a COTS shopping cart in CF that I could sell, I'd have to price it pretty high, because not too many people would buy it. That's not elitism, it's just a description of the world, unless by "elitism" you mean "something I don't like". The world sucks in a lot of ways. But it is what it is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334934 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Well, I guess it is a bag-on-Eric thread after all. Michael Grant said >you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to >drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a >resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating >your portfolio. Good advice right there. Like I said, you have a problem with your business model. Abandon it. Reboot. Cuz right now you are making a big mistake that a lot of us recognize ... since we made the same stupid move ourselves and know the consequences. And when someone tells you this they aren't elitists... They correct word is 'successful', and to be blunt, thats something you are not. Pay attention to someone who is successful if they take the time to give you advice. Chances are they have done well for reasons other than blind luck or random chance. Not saying any of this to be mean. This is just the way it is and, as many of us have said, we have been there, done that and really hate to see someone else jumping off that same cliff. -- -...@robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334933 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
No, the fact that it's not elitist makes it not elitist. Dave's analogy about the auto mechanic and the tools was spot-on (as per usual). If you want to do a job, you're expected to have the tools to do the job. I also agree 100% with what many have said about this particular client. I've dealt with those toxic clients before, because like yourself, I couldn't afford to turn anybody away. I learned right quick that often, it's better (and more profitable) to -not- take on certain clients. I can virtually assure you that things with this particular client are not going to end well. Been there, done that. It's never ended well. I feel for your situation. We just made a move as well, and we're hurting from it. I'm also freelancing right now and I definitely feel the pressure to put food on our table. We're a single income family of 5, and it's definitely challenging at times. But the fact of the matter remains... it's not an elitist attitude to expect that somebody who wants to perform a particular job will have, or be able to obtain, the tools necessary. In all sincerity, I wish you the best of luck and hope things work out in the end. But sniping at folks who are only trying to offer assistance, even if you don't agree with their perspective, isn't going to get you out of the hole any faster. If anything, it'll only make it worse :\ On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Eric Roberts < ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so. And > just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist. > > -Original Message- > From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:15 AM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a > t-shirt > > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would > be > a > > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of > getting > > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts > out > > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong. > > 1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end > of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a > job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as > a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was > saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to > label it as "elitist BS". There's a cost of entry into any field that > goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer, > you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you > want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I > point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm > sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you > go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and > it's out of line, and I think you should stop. > > 2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make > nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce > package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS > package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for > his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your > time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for > what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you > should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal > budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads > to ... > > 3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do > low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that > might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around > PHP than CF. C
RE: CF Shopping carts
Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so. And just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:15 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > point a finger, I was just defending myself. This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong. 1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to label it as "elitist BS". There's a cost of entry into any field that goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer, you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and it's out of line, and I think you should stop. 2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads to ... 3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around PHP than CF. CF simply has never really aimed at that market. Frankly, if I were you and I wanted to go after that range of clients, I'd drop CF like a stone. Not because PHP is better, of course, and I wouldn't like it, but it makes sense in that market. I'm sorry for being harsh, if you perceive this as harsh, but the facts are what they are. I do wish you good luck in your future development endeavors, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or on ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334930 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I'm already doing that ;-) -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:13 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts I 100% agree with this. Eric (Roberts), you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating your portfolio. On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Eric Cobb wrote: > > Wait...what? > >-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every > suggestion. >-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources > already available. >-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free. >-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when > it takes off. >-You don't believe this site will ever take off. >-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that > you'll probably never get paid for it. > > I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that > there isn't a free CF shopping cart... > > I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get, > freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from. (My > wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY > know where you're coming from!) I've wasted many, many hours on these > types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into > something. What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted > everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything > for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does). Even > if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the > good-ole-boy discount. I can hear it now, "C'mon man, I could outsource > this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me. You never tried > to charge me this much before!" > > I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some > clients. If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time. Sure, I > realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you > need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get > that money. But don't do the work if you don't get the money. Free > projects should be done in your free time. The time you waste on the > freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or > cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need. > Trust me, I've been there. > > Thanks, > > Eric Cobb > ECAR Technologies, LLC > http://www.ecartech.com > http://www.cfgears.com > > > > Eric Roberts wrote: > > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a > t-shirt > > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would > be a > > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of > getting > > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts > out > > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > > > Eric > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM > > To: cf-talk > > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > > > > C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they > belong. > > okees? :) > > > > Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? > > Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no > upfront > > cost? > > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < > > ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also > >> doesn't > >> matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sea
Re: CF Shopping carts
> I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > point a finger, I was just defending myself. This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong. 1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to label it as "elitist BS". There's a cost of entry into any field that goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer, you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and it's out of line, and I think you should stop. 2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads to ... 3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around PHP than CF. CF simply has never really aimed at that market. Frankly, if I were you and I wanted to go after that range of clients, I'd drop CF like a stone. Not because PHP is better, of course, and I wouldn't like it, but it makes sense in that market. I'm sorry for being harsh, if you perceive this as harsh, but the facts are what they are. I do wish you good luck in your future development endeavors, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or on ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334926 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
I just finished deploying a shopping cart on a second. I am planning to release it as FOSS as soon as I get a little bit of documentation written. In writing it, I used cfpayment (http://cfpayment.riaforge.org/). It provides an abstraction layer to several payment gateways and it is easy to add new payment gateways if the one you need isn't supported. It is an amazing project and really saved me time. I would highly recommend that anyone endeavoring to build their own cart in ColdFusion check it out. Steve >No problem...but just an FYI, I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple CF FOSS >attempts get as far as a committee/planning stage. Here's to hoping this >one gets further. What about a paid approach...maybe a paid plug in for >Railo? Free licenses for those who contribute? Maybe base it on FW/1? > >Not at all against FOSS, just want to see this work. > >Mark liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334924 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
I 100% agree with this. Eric (Roberts), you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating your portfolio. On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Eric Cobb wrote: > > Wait...what? > >-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every > suggestion. >-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources > already available. >-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free. >-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when > it takes off. >-You don't believe this site will ever take off. >-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that > you'll probably never get paid for it. > > I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that > there isn't a free CF shopping cart... > > I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get, > freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from. (My > wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY > know where you're coming from!) I've wasted many, many hours on these > types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into > something. What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted > everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything > for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does). Even > if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the > good-ole-boy discount. I can hear it now, "C'mon man, I could outsource > this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me. You never tried > to charge me this much before!" > > I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some > clients. If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time. Sure, I > realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you > need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get > that money. But don't do the work if you don't get the money. Free > projects should be done in your free time. The time you waste on the > freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or > cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need. > Trust me, I've been there. > > Thanks, > > Eric Cobb > ECAR Technologies, LLC > http://www.ecartech.com > http://www.cfgears.com > > > > Eric Roberts wrote: > > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a > t-shirt > > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would > be a > > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of > getting > > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts > out > > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > > > Eric > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM > > To: cf-talk > > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > > > > C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they > belong. > > okees? :) > > > > Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? > > Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no > upfront > > cost? > > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < > > ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also > >> doesn't > >> matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has > >> > > done, > > > >> but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, > >> regardless if "he is tellin
RE: CF Shopping carts
You are giving me flash backs man... I think most of us have been there at one point or another. .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: Eric Cobb [mailto:cft...@ecartech.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:02 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts Wait...what? -Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every suggestion. -Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources already available. -Your client expects you to build a custom site for free. -You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when it takes off. -You don't believe this site will ever take off. -You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that you'll probably never get paid for it. I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that there isn't a free CF shopping cart... I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get, freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from. (My wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY know where you're coming from!) I've wasted many, many hours on these types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into something. What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does). Even if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the good-ole-boy discount. I can hear it now, "C'mon man, I could outsource this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me. You never tried to charge me this much before!" I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some clients. If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time. Sure, I realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get that money. But don't do the work if you don't get the money. Free projects should be done in your free time. The time you waste on the freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need. Trust me, I've been there. Thanks, Eric Cobb ECAR Technologies, LLC http://www.ecartech.com http://www.cfgears.com Eric Roberts wrote: > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > use caf? press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > Eric > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong. > okees? :) > > Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? > Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront > cost? > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside > > > > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < > ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > >> I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also >> doesn't >> matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has >> > done, > >> but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, >> regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My >> client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on >> promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed >> right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via >> agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till >> my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty
Re: CF Shopping carts
Wait...what? -Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every suggestion. -Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources already available. -Your client expects you to build a custom site for free. -You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when it takes off. -You don't believe this site will ever take off. -You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that you'll probably never get paid for it. I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that there isn't a free CF shopping cart... I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get, freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from. (My wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY know where you're coming from!) I've wasted many, many hours on these types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into something. What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does). Even if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the good-ole-boy discount. I can hear it now, "C'mon man, I could outsource this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me. You never tried to charge me this much before!" I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some clients. If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time. Sure, I realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get that money. But don't do the work if you don't get the money. Free projects should be done in your free time. The time you waste on the freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need. Trust me, I've been there. Thanks, Eric Cobb ECAR Technologies, LLC http://www.ecartech.com http://www.cfgears.com Eric Roberts wrote: > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > Eric > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong. > okees? :) > > Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? > Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront > cost? > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside > > > > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < > ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > >> I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also >> doesn't >> matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has >> > done, > >> but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, >> regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My >> client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on >> promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed >> right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via >> agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till >> my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what >> little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean >> are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and >> Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I >> wish I had the ability to dump that kind o
Re: CF Shopping carts
No need to defend, I think people were commenting more on mindsets, than *you*, so to speak. That's the way I see it, in context. Defend yourself (shit happens, I've been there), but don't defend a mindset that is at it's core, unhealthy. Not that I'm one to talk, but whatever. :) :Denny -- Books have become our dearest companions, yielding exquisite delights and inspiring lofty aims. George Henry Lewes On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Eric Roberts wrote: > > I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the > impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever > heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other > free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he > use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt > site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a > really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing > his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can > afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting > advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out > there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to > point a finger, I was just defending myself. > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334916 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to point a finger, I was just defending myself. Eric -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong. okees? :) Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront cost? https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also > doesn't > matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done, > but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, > regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My > client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on > promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed > right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via > agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till > my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what > little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean > are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and > Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I > wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real > world with a family to take care of. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > > > > Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. > > > In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be > even remotely true. > Sean has always had a great ability to just "say it like it is"-- And I > have > to agree with him this time-- > Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out > people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning > that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he > says > something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be > wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ). > > This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just > confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to > other OS community's. > Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of > time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free > T-shirts* :) > If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the > statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees > associated with them-- thats it. > > I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when > you > are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the > wrong business. > The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it > will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for > the > real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact. > If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know > exactly > what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my > own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it. > Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred > dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or > a > developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can > be > afforded or not, one must really consider if
Re: CF Shopping carts
Arr, I like the cut of your jib, Kevin Pepperman. :DeN -- As all Art depends on Vision, so the different kinds of Art depend on the different ways in which minds look at things. George Henry Lewes ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334914 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Thanks Sean. Any input on this is immensely helpful. I have participated in several OSS projects but I have never started one, but I do have the backing, ability and determination. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Sean Corfield wrote: > You might want to talk to Jason Delmore @ 4cff.org since they've > already gone through the whole incorporation as a not-for-profit stuff > in order to provide OSS software with infrastructure and legal > backing... > -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334913 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Kevin Pepperman wrote: > I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese. > When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that > is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even > started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry. You might want to talk to Jason Delmore @ 4cff.org since they've already gone through the whole incorporation as a not-for-profit stuff in order to provide OSS software with infrastructure and legal backing... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334911 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
@mark I would love to see the cart be framework agnostic-- then have the ability to have demos on various frameworks. I do think CF has matured to the point where this can be done. Usually things like this fail because they don't have the right combination of resources, planning, drive, and ability-- the first item being the most important. I think we have started something that has access to all those things already-- Time will tell. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334909 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
No problem...but just an FYI, I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple CF FOSS attempts get as far as a committee/planning stage. Here's to hoping this one gets further. What about a paid approach...maybe a paid plug in for Railo? Free licenses for those who contribute? Maybe base it on FW/1? Not at all against FOSS, just want to see this work. Mark -Original Message- From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 9:39 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts @Mark Awesome, Thats the attitude! I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese. When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry. Thanks for the positivity. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334908 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
@Mark Awesome, Thats the attitude! I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese. When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry. Thanks for the positivity. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334907 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
Blah, blah, blah. @ Kevin. I am pretty much a newbie, but I'm good for documentation writing, testing, whatever. Good for several hour/week. Could also pitch in a few dollars if that doesn't violate the FOSS'ness. Mark -Original Message- From: Eric Roberts [mailto:ow...@threeravensconsulting.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 9:02 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: CF Shopping carts I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also doesn't matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done, but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real world with a family to take care of. -Original Message- From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be even remotely true. Sean has always had a great ability to just "say it like it is"-- And I have to agree with him this time-- Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ). This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to other OS community's. Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free T-shirts* :) If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees associated with them-- thats it. I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the wrong business. The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact. If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it. Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even viable at all. Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer. Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount compared to doing it yourself. I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA looks at 6 figure bills every year. Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is friends of your uncle Joe :) This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our community and what it will take to pull it off. Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and have something of value to say. Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12 years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a FOSS CF
Re: CF Shopping carts
@eric, in all respect of you, and all hard working people. Please don't assume that we are all rolling in cash just because we have some insight on critical business decisions. I am currently working my pile of receipts and bills-- as I too am struggling in a bad economy-- I too am all 1090-- have been for over 20 years. I also raised a stepdaughter (24 in grad school), maintain our health insurance etc... all on a self educated career. Built on the back of giants (like Mr. Corfield). But I also work 16+ hours a day, and wouldn't think twice about flipping burgers if I had too to afford a tool that would make me better at my job.. Seans statements were not elitist BS.. you are incorrect. Maybe there are edge cases like yours that do not fit his generalizations, but the general statement is still true. If you want Free, it is out there-- but you insist on stating that its a lot of money for software, but it is just not-- You have a ton of options for your friend, I too do charity work, quite often-- But I don't use enterprise level software like CF-- I use PHP/OSC/PAYPAL etc. There are tons of FREE solutions, you are looking for oranges in an apple tree my friend :) There are too many analogy's for this for me to iterate. I *don't* have a pile of cash, but I *don't* consider Sean's statements to be elitist. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334905 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong. okees? :) Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart? Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront cost? https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts < ow...@threeravensconsulting.com> wrote: > > I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also > doesn't > matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done, > but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, > regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My > client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on > promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed > right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via > agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till > my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what > little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean > are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and > Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I > wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real > world with a family to take care of. > > -Original Message- > From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > > > > Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. > > > In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be > even remotely true. > Sean has always had a great ability to just "say it like it is"-- And I > have > to agree with him this time-- > Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out > people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning > that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he > says > something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be > wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ). > > This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just > confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to > other OS community's. > Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of > time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free > T-shirts* :) > If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the > statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees > associated with them-- thats it. > > I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when > you > are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the > wrong business. > The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it > will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for > the > real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact. > If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know > exactly > what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my > own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it. > Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred > dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or > a > developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can > be > afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even > viable at all. > Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart > yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could > even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in > the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer. > Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if > not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount > compared to doing it yourself. > I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on > a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA > looks at 6 figure bills every year. > > Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this > conversation > is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is > friends of your uncle Joe :) > This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our > community and what it will take to pull it of
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > While I am glad you and Sean are rolling in the dough We've already been over this in another thread on this list a little while back, when I explained my financial situation because of a similar attack on me - by you - during the ColdFusion Builder thread. Here's my reply to you there: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:332221 And here's the full thread where you were the first to respond, criticizing Adobe for charging $299 for ColdFusion Builder: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:61097 -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334903 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also doesn't matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done, but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS, regardless if "he is telling it like it is"...that is just a cop out. My client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real world with a family to take care of. -Original Message- From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be even remotely true. Sean has always had a great ability to just "say it like it is"-- And I have to agree with him this time-- Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ). This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to other OS community's. Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free T-shirts* :) If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees associated with them-- thats it. I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the wrong business. The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact. If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it. Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even viable at all. Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer. Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount compared to doing it yourself. I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA looks at 6 figure bills every year. Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is friends of your uncle Joe :) This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our community and what it will take to pull it off. Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and have something of value to say. Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12 years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a FOSS CF cart. Anyone with me? Or am I on my own? -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?ta
Re: CF Shopping carts
> > Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be even remotely true. Sean has always had a great ability to just "say it like it is"-- And I have to agree with him this time-- Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ). This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to other OS community's. Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free T-shirts* :) If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees associated with them-- thats it. I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the wrong business. The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact. If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it. Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even viable at all. Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer. Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount compared to doing it yourself. I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA looks at 6 figure bills every year. Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is friends of your uncle Joe :) This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our community and what it will take to pull it off. Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and have something of value to say. Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12 years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a FOSS CF cart. Anyone with me? Or am I on my own? -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334901 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
My problem with this Kart is the amount of holes in it. I had an entire server brought down from defacement from this... however, some of that was the lack of sandboxing the app to its own space. Essentially, it was not validating ANY user input (or URL input) and allowing script kiddies access to the DB and its result set in the title of every page of the site based on the URL params you passed in. It didn't store username/password combination in the database, and once they were in to the admin page, they had free reign to upload pages at will. I closed this hole on my local copy, and will never use this code for any other kart again ever. I'm rolling my own for all future clients. Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334892 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Thats why i like the idea of my own shopping cart. I find it takes longer to track down a bug in someone else's code and fix it (or get a support ticket attended to ) than in my own code. And at least i know they are my own bugs!(I always make such a better class of bug, you know? ) When you make your own code you learn a lot more about how everything bolts together. It's not a principle that always works, but for basic things like a CMS or a catalogue or a shopping cart I think its better to invest in your own code and use that for client sites. (always assuming that your own code is good enough of course) Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Kevan Stannard wrote: > > I used CFShopKart a few years back before it was free and had a pretty poor > experience. The list of cart features were good, but I found its > implementation very poor with duplicate code, scores of bugs, messy markup > and sparse responses from the developer when attempting to contact him > regarding the bugs I found. I haven't looked at it recently so it may be > better now. > > On 28 June 2010 15:28, Kym Kovan wrote: > > > > > Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart? > > > > > > -- > > > > Yours, > > > > Kym Kovan > > mbcomms.net.au > > > > > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334891 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
I used CFShopKart a few years back before it was free and had a pretty poor experience. The list of cart features were good, but I found its implementation very poor with duplicate code, scores of bugs, messy markup and sparse responses from the developer when attempting to contact him regarding the bugs I found. I haven't looked at it recently so it may be better now. On 28 June 2010 15:28, Kym Kovan wrote: > > Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart? > > > -- > > Yours, > > Kym Kovan > mbcomms.net.au > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334890 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I've only tested it once and wasn't impressed - but maybe it's evolved since I treid it out a long while ago. BTW, I was referencing Charlie Griefer in my long post last week, I meant Charlie Arehart of course!!! Here's his link on CF411 on CF-based e-commerce solutions: http://www.carehart.org/cf411/#ecm Sebastiaan = So long and thanx 4 all the fish ==> Onlinebase.nl > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:28:35 +1000 > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > From: dev-li...@mbcomms.net.au > To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com > > > Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart? > > > -- > > Yours, > > Kym Kovan > mbcomms.net.au > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334889 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart? -- Yours, Kym Kovan mbcomms.net.au ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334887 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I am going to have to call bullshit on you here Sean. When you are doing intermittent contract work because that is all that is available and you have a family to feed, then that 500 can go to things to keep your family afloat when you are not working because you are forced to do bs contract work. Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there. This is in reference to a client that can't afford it anyway. Or is everyone just not worthy of their position because they choose linux because it is free? Please. -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an > inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy. I'm sorry, but if the "little guy" can't afford $200 or even $400 for some software that makes his job possible / easier, then he doesn't deserve to be in business. What on earth kind of living can someone be making from selling software services where a few hundred bucks can't be covered by their rate on a project? That's crazy talk. As Matt R and other have said: "thats peanuts". I feel the same when I hear people complain about how they "can't afford" to attend conferences. It's bullshit if you care about your career and actually make a living out of it! All the time I've been freelance (three occasions, up to five years a piece), I've set aside money for training / conferences as part of my career plan so that I stay current and marketable and I learn shit that makes me a better, more productive developer. Stuff like this is just the cost of doing business in this industry. Professionals invest in themselves. If someone is really living hand-to-mouth as a software developer and can't afford a few hundred dollars on software, then they need to go get a new career. Software pays well and if you can't make money at it... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334886 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
No...it a lack of available funds. Small businesses are having a hard time getting the capital they need for projects. -Original Message- From: Matt Robertson [mailto:websitema...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:21 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an > inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy. Not to derail this into a lets-beat-on-Eric thread, but as others mentioned, thats peanuts. Something is wrong with your business model if you are in this business and a fee like that knocks you out of the game. Not bagging on you... I'm just sayin'... and I'm saying it as someone who started coding in an office that was a spare bedroom in my apartment... sitting on a plastic lawn chair. I did mom-and-pop retail work and there are some jobs you *have* to say no to, unless you've got nothing else and your time isn't worth anything (i.e. the time you'd save not rolling your own solution... you could be on to and getting paid for your next job). I'm not sure CF lends itself to the mom-and-pop operation, where the expectation is that you can get an ecommerce site for $500, three bags of Doritos and a case of Jolt. There's plenty of college-student developers out there who work for those rates and if you play in those waters you'll never get past that. A fair question to ask: Is the small business ecommerce market such today that it pays NOT to be involved with it? i.e. all the free/cheap/just-add-water solutions out there... Can a developer who wants to earn a good rate for their time get there at all anymore with ecommerce? Does that perhaps explain the dearth of solutions? -- -...@robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334885 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
> > Again, the contributors (to the original platform)... Touche' -- that is true, but Harald Ponce de Leon did start it himself, so it may have been because of the initial decision making of one contributer. > Simon doesn't have an accent and neither do I - it's the rest of "y'all" :) > So True, the American English dialect is the real English accent-- but in a group-- the guy who talks different then the group is the "guy with an accent." :) I don't think I have an accent, (born in key west FL, raised in CT and WY, live in RI) but boy people in Louisiana sure can pick me out of a crowd. I did read somewhere recently that men with accents do better with courting woman-- so why doesn't my very thick American accent work with foreign woman? :\ I would sound like an a$$ if I criticized singers, but Simon still sounds cool. I wonder if its in the water. hmmm. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334884 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Kevin Pepperman wrote: > I agree in the fact that code contributions are only as good as the > contributers, but I think the base OSC platform never really had a solid > foundation for implementing plugins. Again, the contributors (to the original platform)... > Though it sounds so much better with an accent. Simon doesn't have an accent and neither do I - it's the rest of "y'all" :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334883 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On 2010-06-27, at 20:57, Sean Corfield wrote: > I'm sorry, but if the "little guy" can't afford $200 or even $400 for > some software that makes his job possible / easier, then he doesn't > deserve to be in business. > > What on earth kind of living can someone be making from selling > software services where a few hundred bucks can't be covered by their > rate on a project? That's crazy talk. > > As Matt R and other have said: "thats peanuts". > > I feel the same when I hear people complain about how they "can't > afford" to attend conferences. It's bullshit if you care about your > career and actually make a living out of it! All the time I've been > freelance (three occasions, up to five years a piece), I've set aside > money for training / conferences as part of my career plan so that I > stay current and marketable and I learn shit that makes me a better, > more productive developer. Stuff like this is just the cost of doing > business in this industry. Professionals invest in themselves. > > If someone is really living hand-to-mouth as a software developer and > can't afford a few hundred dollars on software, then they need to go > get a new career. Software pays well and if you can't make money at > it... The flip side of the pricing equation is that possibly 50% of the people willing to spend $400 on a shopping cart might be willing to spend $2000, and would feel like they got a better product because it was two thousand dollars. I've never successfully convinced a client to use an off-the-shelf shopping cart package. Maybe it happened when I was just starting consulting, but I can't remember that far back :-) Nowadays I'm either working with a system that's already been built, or clients seem to think that their needs are sufficiently more complex and specific than everyone else's, and no matter how much I try to convince them to evaluate a pre-built system, they have always wanted me to build one from scratch. So I do. The conversation about training and conferences is a little OT, but I'll pitch in as it's something I've been thinking about anyway. I've been developing ColdFusion apps for about 14 years now and I've never attended a CF conference. I have been sent to conferences occasionally by employers (when I wasn't self-employed) and have mostly found them to be a waste of time. Everyone learns differently and I'm just as happy keeping the money in my pocket, skipping the conference, and learning on my own. Reading blogs is a great way to pick up others' opinions (thanks everyone) and I see enough of other peoples' code that I still even occasionally learn something. The great thing about conferences, I suppose, is being seen. I've reached the point in my career where it probably would help to be seen more, so if you see me at a conference you can laugh at me for making this comment here :-) In the next year or so I'm going to try to hit a security conference and maybe a ColdFusion one too. - Andrew. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334882 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
>
> That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the
> quality of the coders who've been working on it
In the case of OsCommerce and the variations of that platform this really is
only partially true.
I agree in the fact that code contributions are only as good as the
contributers, but I think the base OSC platform never really had a solid
foundation for implementing plugins.
There are so many ways to do things and no real standards for their
requirements, so one module will use the existing language files,
install/remove routines and the next wont-- If there were actual
requirements or conventions that always had to be followed it would still be
convoluted to even a good PHP coder.
CRE loaded and Zen cart tried to move past those limitations and they were
somewhat successful but the documentation was limited.
Anyone who has learned how the RCO and RCI (runtime include/override)
systems; And the actual template systems in CRE Loaded will tell you that
that idea was half baked into an already convoluted code base.
> I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even
> a few hundred dollars for something of value
I do agree with the point that no-one should reject a few hundred dollar(or
more) fee for a solution, I have gone down that path as well with several
projects.
But out of the box everything needed just as much work as the free
offerings, and frankly they were no better--
Actually when it came to implementing new features, OSC was always the best
even with its shortcomings, once I got to know it. I feel like that
was purely because there was community help, and you were working with a
code base that had hundreds of examples.
And when something was needed that I couldn't understand, I could always pay
for help.
That is what people are really looking for, not just free code-- but a
community of people that have forums/groups with examples and documentation
of common pitfalls and "duh" moments.
I have seen a few company's spend thousands++ on proprietary solutions only
to find out the code was hugely complex, and there was no forums/community
support at all.
Only the company sells 200$/hr support, and will be available sometime next
month.. maybe.
(so I suspect some of the difficulty expressed in this thread also comes
> from an inability to understand halfway complex code)
This sorta go's without saying, but this also the same reason people use an
IPhone, it is simple and just works, it may not do everything for you but
you don't need a manual and a month to understand how to use it.
It is not so much the complexity of the applications or that fact they
are procedural, it is the simple fact that you cant just add a simple
feature without understanding a huge portion of the code-base or without
causing errors in completely unrelated code.
Though this is partially a good thing since once it is installed you are
getting plenty of work in maintenance fees,but it sorta sucks for the new
people, or the 22 yr old webmasters who inherit some legacy apps.
Apache/Tomcat/PHP/MySql/Railo/OpenBd/CFML are simple to install, simple to
use, and above all simple to get involved with-- that is what inspires new
developers-- if we make things complicated to use, only complicated people
will use them.
People do want things that are easy, that is why FW1 has taken off so well,
the concepts are relatively easy to grasp and you don't have to be a genius
to use it :)
I think the future of web based software really sits on this type of
service, like the type of model Railo has-- give the application/code for
free, but also sell support packages--
If someone is really living hand-to-mouth as a software developer and
> can't afford a few hundred dollars on software, then they need to go
> get a new career. Software pays well and if you can't make money at
> it...
haha.. American Idol would never be watchable if they didn't all get some
actual good advice from Simon-- ("don't quit your day job-- because frankly
you are a terrible singer-- simply awful")
Though it sounds so much better with an accent.
This is very true Sean, that is one thing I learned years ago-- it costs
money and takes time to be a programmer-- if you think you can do it for
free and easy, then get another career.
This wont happen for free, that is why I offered money and time-- and my
own experience.
I am happy we are getting some varied input on this, maybe the heat of
conversation can give the idea some momentum.
--
/Kevin Pepperman
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
~|
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Re: CF Shopping carts
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an > inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy. I'm sorry, but if the "little guy" can't afford $200 or even $400 for some software that makes his job possible / easier, then he doesn't deserve to be in business. What on earth kind of living can someone be making from selling software services where a few hundred bucks can't be covered by their rate on a project? That's crazy talk. As Matt R and other have said: "thats peanuts". I feel the same when I hear people complain about how they "can't afford" to attend conferences. It's bullshit if you care about your career and actually make a living out of it! All the time I've been freelance (three occasions, up to five years a piece), I've set aside money for training / conferences as part of my career plan so that I stay current and marketable and I learn shit that makes me a better, more productive developer. Stuff like this is just the cost of doing business in this industry. Professionals invest in themselves. If someone is really living hand-to-mouth as a software developer and can't afford a few hundred dollars on software, then they need to go get a new career. Software pays well and if you can't make money at it... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334880 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an > inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy. Not to derail this into a lets-beat-on-Eric thread, but as others mentioned, thats peanuts. Something is wrong with your business model if you are in this business and a fee like that knocks you out of the game. Not bagging on you... I'm just sayin'... and I'm saying it as someone who started coding in an office that was a spare bedroom in my apartment... sitting on a plastic lawn chair. I did mom-and-pop retail work and there are some jobs you *have* to say no to, unless you've got nothing else and your time isn't worth anything (i.e. the time you'd save not rolling your own solution... you could be on to and getting paid for your next job). I'm not sure CF lends itself to the mom-and-pop operation, where the expectation is that you can get an ecommerce site for $500, three bags of Doritos and a case of Jolt. There's plenty of college-student developers out there who work for those rates and if you play in those waters you'll never get past that. A fair question to ask: Is the small business ecommerce market such today that it pays NOT to be involved with it? i.e. all the free/cheap/just-add-water solutions out there... Can a developer who wants to earn a good rate for their time get there at all anymore with ecommerce? Does that perhaps explain the dearth of solutions? -- -...@robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334879 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
Sean, I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy. Eric -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 12:03 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Mary Jo Sminkey wrote: > There's a lot of pitfalls to using open source software for ecommerce (and yes, I may be biased, but I also speak from lots of experience in this field). Anyone that has spent anytime with OSCommerce knows how convoluted the code has become from years of many people messing with it. That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the quality of the coders who've been working on it (and that can be a general problem in the CF community and why so many complaints are cropping up in this thread about how hard the various e-commerce packages are to work with - and you hear it of many OSS CF projects). > Most of my customers will agree...they are paying just as much for the support they get as for the code itself. Knowing that if something goes wrong or stops working, they have someone to go to that will get it working for them again. With something as mission critical as most ecommerce sites are, that's usually worth a few bucks to get, versus saving some up-front with OSS and then being on your own should any problems arise. Absolutely and that's what the POSS - Professional Open Source Software - model is all about: free software, paid support (like MySQL, JBoss, Red Hat - even Transfer ORM and ColdBox in the CF community). I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand. Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework code itself. I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the CF community because developers won't donate their time for free - they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system of FOSS we envy in other communities... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334878 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
...reviewed a *few* e-commerce packages... (I have 'free' on the brain :) On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Sean Corfield wrote: > I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free > e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to > review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are > definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the > difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to > understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad > by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the > various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex > part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given > developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people > find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand. > Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework > code itself. > > I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even > a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep > asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the > CF community because developers won't donate their time for free - > they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not > willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF > offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a > culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers > tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for > free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are > definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go > before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system > of FOSS we envy in other communities... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334877 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Mary Jo Sminkey wrote: > There's a lot of pitfalls to using open source software for ecommerce (and > yes, I may be biased, but I also speak from lots of experience in this > field). Anyone that has spent anytime with OSCommerce knows how convoluted > the code has become from years of many people messing with it. That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the quality of the coders who've been working on it (and that can be a general problem in the CF community and why so many complaints are cropping up in this thread about how hard the various e-commerce packages are to work with - and you hear it of many OSS CF projects). > Most of my customers will agree...they are paying just as much for the > support they get as for the code itself. Knowing that if something goes wrong > or stops working, they have someone to go to that will get it working for > them again. With something as mission critical as most ecommerce sites are, > that's usually worth a few bucks to get, versus saving some up-front with OSS > and then being on your own should any problems arise. Absolutely and that's what the POSS - Professional Open Source Software - model is all about: free software, paid support (like MySQL, JBoss, Red Hat - even Transfer ORM and ColdBox in the CF community). I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand. Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework code itself. I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the CF community because developers won't donate their time for free - they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system of FOSS we envy in other communities... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334876 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
> > Saying that the USD 200,- that Mary Jo asks for her CFWebstore is too > much seems like an oddity to me. If the customer cannot pay USD 200,- > for the licence, how on earth is the customer able to pay for the > consultant/developer fees for installing and modifying the webshop if > needed? Well, actually the price for a new first-time store is $400. And yes, that's a fair amount more than any of the various PHP carts, but even that price is barely enough for me to support future development with it. There's a reason there are so few CF carts out therethe amount of work needed to build and maintain even a reasonably good cart is pretty significant, and there just isn't a big enough market for CF apps to easily bring in the sales needed to support the work required. There's a lot of pitfalls to using open source software for ecommerce (and yes, I may be biased, but I also speak from lots of experience in this field). Anyone that has spent anytime with OSCommerce knows how convoluted the code has become from years of many people messing with it. And yes, there are tons of addons you can get for just about any payment gateway, shipper, etc. you might want to use, but what happens when they change their API and your client's store stops working? I can't tell you how many times I've had to redo code because of API changes, or how many times I've had to go onto a site to debug a particular server issue that they might be having that's causing things to break. I've got a pretty long to-do list at the moment of things that have to be updated, changed or added in the next several months to keep sites running properly. Most of my customers will agree...they are paying just as much for the support they get as for the code itself. Knowing that if something goes wrong or stops working, they have someone to go to that will get it working for them again. With something as mission critical as most ecommerce sites are, that's usually worth a few bucks to get, versus saving some up-front with OSS and then being on your own should any problems arise. I do agree that the fact that my code is still procedural though is a bit of an issue. Not that it's *bad* code, just not OO, and I've always felt one advantage it had was that I get a lot of web designers that really know very little CF but can do minor changes to the application since it's fairly easy to learn as is. But I definitely have seen more in the last year or so the need for a more enterprise-level solution that provides APIs and proper MVC architecture, that can easily plug into other apps and work directly with them, etc. There's a ton of stuff I have in the works right now but an almost complete rewrite of the code is a hard thing to fit in there in terms of time and money needed to do itparticularly since the only way to get it done in a reasonable amount of time while freezing other development is probably to hire some good developers to do a sizable chunk of the work.. The amount of time involved in refactoring an application of this size and complexity is definitely not trivial. But I'm looking into some possibilities and hopefully can continue to move this forward. I'm certainly open though to ideas for how we might get it done (and done well) without it costing tens of thousands of dollars! One thing I have considered doing in the past and if we are able to update the architecture I might consider doing is having a free version that just includes the most basic functions needed for a shopping cart...and then the commercial version that would require purchase for the full suite of features. --- Mary Jo ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334871 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
>No...my client has been with them for a while. I used to host with them and >they are pretty good as far as hosts go...it's just that he is on a shared >server. I left when they tried to tack on a 20/site charge for CF7 when it >came out. > >Eric, > >Take a look at this site: https://store.apolisactivism.com/ > >It's running a ecommerce engine I wrote - it's live on some other sites now >and am just getting ready to roll it out publicly. Let me know if it might >fit your needs. > >That list of restrictions your host puts on ColdFusion seems pretty harsh, >is moving hosts a possibility? > >Cheers, >.jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334869 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Jonah- Your cart looks great. You really need to come to market with it, because as mentioned, CF is severely lacking in this space. My company has focused on ecomm over he last couple of years, but unfortunately we haven't been able to use any CF products (we are a CF shop mostly), because they just aren't that good. Customer timelines prevented us from developing our own, so we've been implementing very large-scale Java products. I'd love to be able to offer a CF product to some of our smaller clients. And those who complain about a $200 price tag probably aren't servicing clients with many needs. The java product we've been implementing sells for an insane amount. > Eric, > > Thanks for asking. It's as customizable as you want it to be really. > Coming into your store.item view for example you get an Item bean. > From there it's goes from simply #item.getName()# to pulling the > arrays of properties (color/size/etc.) and iterating over them to > create drop downs, or fancier html like this site for display. We > typically start from a set of reference views and customize as much or > as little as needed for the site design and products. > > Here's an example of a fairly different product view: http://www. > happycanyonvineyard.com/event/wines/ > > Cheers, . > jonah > > >How customizable is the interface? > > > >@Kevin, > > > >>I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the > CF > >world-- > >>Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. > > > >So true. > > > >When I was looking for a ecommerce solution several years ago, I > evaluated > >all the current offerings and joined the CFCommerce google group, etc. > > > > >I wasn't finding anything remotely like what I needed, so wrote a > solution. > >I'm now at the point of opening it up for others to use and am > evaluating > >business model and licensing options. > > > >(Here's a live example: https://store.apolisactivism.com/) > > > >If you'd like to talk more here or offline let me know. > > > >Cheers, > >.jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334868 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Eric, Thanks for asking. It's as customizable as you want it to be really. Coming into your store.item view for example you get an Item bean. From there it's goes from simply #item.getName()# to pulling the arrays of properties (color/size/etc.) and iterating over them to create drop downs, or fancier html like this site for display. We typically start from a set of reference views and customize as much or as little as needed for the site design and products. Here's an example of a fairly different product view: http://www.happycanyonvineyard.com/event/wines/ Cheers, .jonah >How customizable is the interface? > >@Kevin, > >>I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF >world-- >>Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. > >So true. > >When I was looking for a ecommerce solution several years ago, I evaluated >all the current offerings and joined the CFCommerce google group, etc. > >I wasn't finding anything remotely like what I needed, so wrote a solution. >I'm now at the point of opening it up for others to use and am evaluating >business model and licensing options. > >(Here's a live example: https://store.apolisactivism.com/) > >If you'd like to talk more here or offline let me know. > >Cheers, >.jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334863 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
How customizable is the interface? -Original Message- From: jonah blossom [mailto:jonah@creori.com] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:13 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts @Kevin, >I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF world-- >Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. So true. When I was looking for a ecommerce solution several years ago, I evaluated all the current offerings and joined the CFCommerce google group, etc. I wasn't finding anything remotely like what I needed, so wrote a solution. I'm now at the point of opening it up for others to use and am evaluating business model and licensing options. (Here's a live example: https://store.apolisactivism.com/) If you'd like to talk more here or offline let me know. Cheers, .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334843 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
@jonah, Your site looks excellent. Good work. Paul Alkema http://paulalkema.com/ -Original Message- From: jonah blossom [mailto:jonah@creori.com] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:13 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts @Kevin, >I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF world-- >Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. So true. When I was looking for a ecommerce solution several years ago, I evaluated all the current offerings and joined the CFCommerce google group, etc. I wasn't finding anything remotely like what I needed, so wrote a solution. I'm now at the point of opening it up for others to use and am evaluating business model and licensing options. (Here's a live example: https://store.apolisactivism.com/) If you'd like to talk more here or offline let me know. Cheers, .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334842 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
No...my client has been with them for a while. I used to host with them and they are pretty good as far as hosts go...it's just that he is on a shared server. I left when they tried to tack on a 20/site charge for CF7 when it came out. -Original Message- From: jonah blossom [mailto:jonah@creori.com] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:08 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts Eric, Take a look at this site: https://store.apolisactivism.com/ It's running a ecommerce engine I wrote - it's live on some other sites now and am just getting ready to roll it out publicly. Let me know if it might fit your needs. That list of restrictions your host puts on ColdFusion seems pretty harsh, is moving hosts a possibility? Cheers, .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334837 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
We at onlinebase.nl also have made our own shoppingcart, built in CFML that runs on both ACF and Railo, and MySQL as well as MSSQL. Saying that the USD 200,- that Mary Jo asks for her CFWebstore is too much seems like an oddity to me. If the customer cannot pay USD 200,- for the licence, how on earth is the customer able to pay for the consultant/developer fees for installing and modifying the webshop if needed? Having seen Magento, osCommerce and other OSS webshops I must say I'm impressed with the magnitude of fucntionality. But as with any customer, it never really is what the customer needs. Be it extra or improved/changed functionality or a custom paint job. Just last year we won a large bid for a customer wanting a lot of customization for a new webshop (http://molitli.nl/). Even though the OSS PHP versions came fully loaded, changing he codebase to fit the needs of the customer was as expensive as refactoring a version of our own webshop. Much like many customers of Mary Jo do with CFWebstore. Upgrading OSS webshops when they've been carefully modified is also a b***h, coting many billable hours for the client. I've seen many aspiring CF-OSS webshops of late, but none have really taken the step into a fully functional webshop. CFCartweaver has been revived (at least so I assume seeing all the mails and updates coming out lately). Charlie Griefer has an extensive list over at his site (http://charlie.griefer.com/) and Raymond Camden started a thread over at his site a year back: http://www.coldfusionjedi.com/index.cfm/2009/3/27/Call-for-Help-Web-shops-using-ColdFusion All in all I'd be in favour of making one CF OSS webshop, but not sure how and why people would contribute seeing as it might nibble away at their own profit. Setting up a webshop let alone building it is a mammoth task at times, but I'd be willing to chime in if more people join such a project. BTW: On Riaforge I could only find two CF OSS webshop alternatives..., http://cfcommerce.riaforge.org/ (no activitiy) and http://opene.riaforge.org/ (no activity). Sebastiaan Naafs - van Dijk = So long and thanx 4 all the fish ==> Onlinebase.nl > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:35:58 -0400 > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > From: chorno...@gmail.com > To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com > > > @Eric Roberts > * > * > Yea, that has been my experience with all the carts I have used as well. > > I have used OsCommerce, as well as the various flavors-- ZEN cart, CRE > Loaded etc.. and they all have big requirements-- some hosts just will not > run them. > > Although I have been successful using them, they all have their > shortcomings-- convoluted code structures being the worst part. > > -- > /Kevin Pepperman > > "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, > deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334836 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
@Kevin, >I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF world-- >Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. So true. When I was looking for a ecommerce solution several years ago, I evaluated all the current offerings and joined the CFCommerce google group, etc. I wasn't finding anything remotely like what I needed, so wrote a solution. I'm now at the point of opening it up for others to use and am evaluating business model and licensing options. (Here's a live example: https://store.apolisactivism.com/) If you'd like to talk more here or offline let me know. Cheers, .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334832 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Eric, Take a look at this site: https://store.apolisactivism.com/ It's running a ecommerce engine I wrote - it's live on some other sites now and am just getting ready to roll it out publicly. Let me know if it might fit your needs. That list of restrictions your host puts on ColdFusion seems pretty harsh, is moving hosts a possibility? Cheers, .jonah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334829 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
@Eric Roberts * * Yea, that has been my experience with all the carts I have used as well. I have used OsCommerce, as well as the various flavors-- ZEN cart, CRE Loaded etc.. and they all have big requirements-- some hosts just will not run them. Although I have been successful using them, they all have their shortcomings-- convoluted code structures being the worst part. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334827 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
I think that would be great. My expdereince with Able Commerce was horrible. That made spaghetti code look like textbook OO code. Mary Jo's CFWebstore was much better...just a bit too pricey for most of my client's budgets. I did use it once with a client and it was pretty good. I haven't really dug into others, but we are looking. If this does go through, we should also keep in mind server restrictions as many people are on shared hosting...or at least have a "safe" cersion of it that would either get around these restrictions or avoid them completely. Cost and server restrictions have been my main obstacles at this juncture of my search. Eric -Original Message- From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:42 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF world-- Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. CF would be such a great platform to develop a awesome open source shopping cart/administration system. It would be easy to modularize with add-ons components etc... Ii'll bet most of what a OS CF commerce system requires already exists in the wild, but just needs to be put together in a cohesive platform. A lot of components could actually be modeled off other systems like Magento or OsCommerce I would be willing to dedicate financial ($$) resources and time in something like this if the community was in need and willing to participate. It is something we should all consider; When searching the web for PHP carts there are hundreds-- in the CF world there are just a meager few, and like @Dave mentioned about cw, every CF cart I have seen is procedural spaghetti at best, or not FOSS. I written some half-baked code years ago for a cart, some has been re factored into OO. But it is no way ready for prime time and was build specific for existing internal systems so it is very limited in administration ability. But it has been used on several sites for many years with no issues, so I know it can be done. I think if a open source CF commerce system was approached from the CF community mind-set it may turn into something that could be used in any framework/engine. I have seen what the CF community is capable of-- and it is nothing short of astounding, so I am 100% confident it could be done. What does everyone else think about this? Would this be something that the community could use and would participate? If I get a decent response I will set up hosting, a .org, a git repo and consult with my people about the legalese involved. I would also be willing pay some of the more prominent CFr's for consulting/code/advice on this-- as I know some peoples advice/code/talent is worth every penny. Please chime in everyone, no matter your ability's-- this is something that does not exist yet, and we as a group have the ability to make it happen. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334823 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
I feel that this is one area that is completely overlooked in the CF world-- Especially since OO was introduced to CF in MX. CF would be such a great platform to develop a awesome open source shopping cart/administration system. It would be easy to modularize with add-ons components etc... Ii'll bet most of what a OS CF commerce system requires already exists in the wild, but just needs to be put together in a cohesive platform. A lot of components could actually be modeled off other systems like Magento or OsCommerce I would be willing to dedicate financial ($$) resources and time in something like this if the community was in need and willing to participate. It is something we should all consider; When searching the web for PHP carts there are hundreds-- in the CF world there are just a meager few, and like @Dave mentioned about cw, every CF cart I have seen is procedural spaghetti at best, or not FOSS. I written some half-baked code years ago for a cart, some has been re factored into OO. But it is no way ready for prime time and was build specific for existing internal systems so it is very limited in administration ability. But it has been used on several sites for many years with no issues, so I know it can be done. I think if a open source CF commerce system was approached from the CF community mind-set it may turn into something that could be used in any framework/engine. I have seen what the CF community is capable of-- and it is nothing short of astounding, so I am 100% confident it could be done. What does everyone else think about this? Would this be something that the community could use and would participate? If I get a decent response I will set up hosting, a .org, a git repo and consult with my people about the legalese involved. I would also be willing pay some of the more prominent CFr's for consulting/code/advice on this-- as I know some peoples advice/code/talent is worth every penny. Please chime in everyone, no matter your ability's-- this is something that does not exist yet, and we as a group have the ability to make it happen. -- /Kevin Pepperman "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334822 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
cw is the biggest clusterfuck-o-code ever.. be sure to bring lots of spaghetti sauce for that spaghetti coded buffet ;) >Have you checked out Cartweaver yet? > >https://www.cartweaver.com/store/detail/?id=cw3cfm > >It's a cheap $300 and is licensed per developer, not per site. > >Warm regards, >Jordan Michaels >Vivio Technologies >http://www.viviotech.net/ >Open BlueDragon Steering Committee >Railo Community Distributions > >On 06/18/2010 09:26 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: >> ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334811 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Have you checked out Cartweaver yet? https://www.cartweaver.com/store/detail/?id=cw3cfm It's a cheap $300 and is licensed per developer, not per site. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Railo Community Distributions On 06/18/2010 09:26 PM, Eric Roberts wrote: > > My client is looking to host locally, so it has to be something we can > install ourselves. Thanks! > > Eric > > -Original Message- > From: Brian Hendel [mailto:sp...@splicedigital.com] > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 9:28 PM > To: cf-talk > Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts > > > Hi there. > > I don't have a free or cheap solution for you, but I have developed my own > custom CF cart solution powering some high sales site, and I have a > dedicated CF server on which I host my solutions. If you are interesting in > chatting, feel free to drop me a line! I typically handle the entire > process for you (templating, configuration, payment gateway setup, shipping, > etc). > > brian [-at-] splicedigital [-dot-] com > > Cheers. > > -Brian > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334758 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF Shopping carts
My client is looking to host locally, so it has to be something we can install ourselves. Thanks! Eric -Original Message- From: Brian Hendel [mailto:sp...@splicedigital.com] Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 9:28 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts Hi there. I don't have a free or cheap solution for you, but I have developed my own custom CF cart solution powering some high sales site, and I have a dedicated CF server on which I host my solutions. If you are interesting in chatting, feel free to drop me a line! I typically handle the entire process for you (templating, configuration, payment gateway setup, shipping, etc). brian [-at-] splicedigital [-dot-] com Cheers. -Brian ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334664 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF Shopping carts
Hi there. I don't have a free or cheap solution for you, but I have developed my own custom CF cart solution powering some high sales site, and I have a dedicated CF server on which I host my solutions. If you are interesting in chatting, feel free to drop me a line! I typically handle the entire process for you (templating, configuration, payment gateway setup, shipping, etc). brian [-at-] splicedigital [-dot-] com Cheers. -Brian ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:334663 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: cf shopping carts
AMEN BROTHER! damn! :) Will ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226524 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: cf shopping carts
>Will, >Join the group. I've got a schema, you've got one, together, we may have >25% correct! > Ok, I registered and emailed you via SF. Will ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226522 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: cf shopping carts
Not sure if I can help here or not with this one but I can at least share some experiences we have in building a CF commerce engine from scratch. It can be a really big job and should not be taken lightly. We started our project because we used to use AbleCommerce and we got so mad at how they handled updates and how messy their code was that we ended up building a ColdFusion/Fusebox 4.1 commerce engine from the ground up. It took us a little over a year to go live with it, but it has been running for the last year or so. And like most web applications it will never truly be complete. We are adding UPS/Fedex XML gateway APIs to it now, for example. Using one Fusebox framework per site to call a core Fusebox framework, we were able to syndicate core store features and still have the ability to override them for custom shipping options like the one you describe below. Unfortunately, our system is not open-source for obvious reasons, but we have licensed it to other development companies and using BlueDragon we hope to offer it as compiled software soon. Currently it is only sold as a hosted app. If you are building one from the ground up I suggest you use a framework and possibly CFCs to make things flexible. That will end up becoming a major deal once you start to sell stores. We are building hundreds of stores now, and I can safely say from experience that no two stores are exactly the same. That is why cut-and-past OS commerce software is not all its cracked up to be, unless you charge serious dollars to your customers for custom programming, or you are building really small stores where the expectation of flexibility and features from the customer is low. The problem with customizing the OS versions are that you only have so much time in a day. You also end up limiting the amount of recurring revenue you can make because you are so busy hacking someone else's store engine. I'm not bashing OS at all, since we use MySQL for the DB and our commerce engine server is running CFMX 7 on Debian. I guess my point is that it CAN be done on CF, it can be scalable, you can reuse your code, but you need a framework and some hosting automation built-in if you want to make a business out of it. Do a lot of planning before you dive-in and make sure that you have a way to override layouts, shipping, pricing, discounts, group permissions, affiliates, etc. John McKown President/CEO Delaware.Net, Inc. We Host Fusebox.org dave wrote: > since forever_cart.cfc is not going to be done for awhile I need to possibly > find a different solution to a cart i need. > > any suggestions on a cart? Needs the following (and not cartweaver): > of course all the add, edit, delete- products, shipping, ect > > but one thing I was just asked for is that if the order is over $11 to not > give usps as a shipping option and when you select a product is shows you the > product, so lets say you go into shirts it has the main listing and when you > select a color it shows that color. > > I currently can do that but it messes some stuff up and of course I could add > those functions but it might be cheaper to find a cart with that already in > it. > > any suggestions? I havent been paying attention to the current available > carts ;) > > ~Dave the disruptor~ > good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) > http://explorerdestroyer.com/ > http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226436 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: cf shopping carts
That's it we'll use Contribute! -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] All the ppl on here and no help? thats is quite sad!!! It's not like you will be giving up your beloved copy of homesite or anything, damn give a few hours, make a feature, CONTRIBUTE! g :) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: cf shopping carts Hay, disruptor! Don't be picking on THE open source project of the decade! And I am not talking about the development time either. All we need is a few good programers, architects, CSS experts, DB pros... Besides that, we are all set :-)) Andy -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: cf shopping carts since forever_cart.cfc is not going to be done for awhile I need to possibly find a different solution to a cart i need. any suggestions on a cart? Needs the following (and not cartweaver): of course all the add, edit, delete- products, shipping, ect but one thing I was just asked for is that if the order is over $11 to not give usps as a shipping option and when you select a product is shows you the product, so lets say you go into shirts it has the main listing and when you select a color it shows that color. I currently can do that but it messes some stuff up and of course I could add those functions but it might be cheaper to find a cart with that already in it. any suggestions? I havent been paying attention to the current available carts ;) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226413 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: cf shopping carts
Will, Join the group. I've got a schema, you've got one, together, we may have 25% correct! Go to SourceForge.net, register, and send me your unix id and we'll start to rock! https://sourceforge.net/projects/openbizservices/ Andy -Original Message- From: Will Tomlinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: cf shopping carts now back on topic, since u been working on your cart for 9 months now > whats up with it? Jared not writing it for ya anymore? ;) > There's so much factually inaccurate info here I have no idea where to begin, so I won't. lol! Nah, lemme splain a thing or two. My db schema's were flawed because I didn't normalize iptions down. I always had tblSizes, tblColors, etc. I liked the unlimited options of cartweaver's db, so I used that as a base. Then I built upon it. My db now out-permforms and out-features CW any day of the week. I've written much of the code myself, with tips/suggestions/hints from the list, bobby, jared, and sean. Heck, you're USING Cartweaver and still getting help! lol! Those are the facts. Will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226396 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: cf shopping carts
now back on topic, since u been working on your cart for 9 months now > whats up with it? Jared not writing it for ya anymore? ;) > There's so much factually inaccurate info here I have no idea where to begin, so I won't. lol! Nah, lemme splain a thing or two. My db schema's were flawed because I didn't normalize iptions down. I always had tblSizes, tblColors, etc. I liked the unlimited options of cartweaver's db, so I used that as a base. Then I built upon it. My db now out-permforms and out-features CW any day of the week. I've written much of the code myself, with tips/suggestions/hints from the list, bobby, jared, and sean. Heck, you're USING Cartweaver and still getting help! lol! Those are the facts. Will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226392 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: cf shopping carts
thats why u try to copy and paste from cartweaver and mess it up then come on here and ask for help like you wrote the code but in reality you mess up copy & pasting. then you call me cpt access and you use access and in case ya havent figured it out yet access doesn't run on a mac (thank god), its funny how you try and make fun of the things u use, kinda like the rest stop.. now back on topic, since u been working on your cart for 9 months now whats up with it? Jared not writing it for ya anymore? ;) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ From: Will Tomlinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: cf shopping carts > " All we need is a few good programers," > well that leaves will out... haha Yeah I totally agree! I'm not good, I'm GREAT! You on the other hand, well you're Captain Cartweaver. lol! Will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226376 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: cf shopping carts
> " All we need is a few good programers," > well that leaves will out... haha Yeah I totally agree! I'm not good, I'm GREAT! You on the other hand, well you're Captain Cartweaver. lol! Will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226375 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: cf shopping carts
" All we need is a few good programers," well that leaves will out... haha Hey man Im ready to go, lets git r done! All the ppl on here and no help? thats is quite sad!!! It's not like you will be giving up your beloved copy of homesite or anything, damn give a few hours, make a feature, CONTRIBUTE! g :) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: cf shopping carts Hay, disruptor! Don't be picking on THE open source project of the decade! And I am not talking about the development time either. All we need is a few good programers, architects, CSS experts, DB pros... Besides that, we are all set :-)) Andy -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: cf shopping carts since forever_cart.cfc is not going to be done for awhile I need to possibly find a different solution to a cart i need. any suggestions on a cart? Needs the following (and not cartweaver): of course all the add, edit, delete- products, shipping, ect but one thing I was just asked for is that if the order is over $11 to not give usps as a shipping option and when you select a product is shows you the product, so lets say you go into shirts it has the main listing and when you select a color it shows that color. I currently can do that but it messes some stuff up and of course I could add those functions but it might be cheaper to find a cart with that already in it. any suggestions? I havent been paying attention to the current available carts ;) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226374 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: cf shopping carts
Hay, disruptor! Don't be picking on THE open source project of the decade! And I am not talking about the development time either. All we need is a few good programers, architects, CSS experts, DB pros... Besides that, we are all set :-)) Andy -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: cf shopping carts since forever_cart.cfc is not going to be done for awhile I need to possibly find a different solution to a cart i need. any suggestions on a cart? Needs the following (and not cartweaver): of course all the add, edit, delete- products, shipping, ect but one thing I was just asked for is that if the order is over $11 to not give usps as a shipping option and when you select a product is shows you the product, so lets say you go into shirts it has the main listing and when you select a color it shows that color. I currently can do that but it messes some stuff up and of course I could add those functions but it might be cheaper to find a cart with that already in it. any suggestions? I havent been paying attention to the current available carts ;) ~Dave the disruptor~ good sites - make money getting rid of ie :) http://explorerdestroyer.com/ http://www.killbillsbrowser.com/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:226370 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
