Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
hi, On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 03:30:17PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Hi, Is anyone working on this currently? I might seriously look into it very soon. i'm about to start to work on a ME of classpath, which should conform CLDC 1.1 and MIDP 2.0, currently i'm doing the gnu paperwork so i'll may comit into the gnu classpath repository... bey - mr
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, Is anyone working on this currently? I might seriously look into it very soon. Thanks, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tapani Pälli wrote: ext Philippe Laporte wrote: Hi, I'm forwarding this to other relevant lists as well. The 770 window manager is Matchbox: http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/ Is the color map problem already assigned to someone? Expose-events work in 770 normally, bug is in the application/library side, not in Matchbox. Problem with pixmap depth was solved by disabling composite extension in Xomap build (if it does not work, the problem is trivial for application side to fix just by using some other function to query colordepth instead). Best Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Tapani // Tapani Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 13:46 +0100, Clemens Eisserer wrote: Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. Not on the 770, it has several problems but I am not experienced enough to solve them: - Expose events seem not to be sent by X or at least are not received by java. I did some debgugging and as far as I can tell no expose events are sent by X. Interesting. Does the 770 window manager allow overlapping windows or dialogs? Maybe there is no need for expose events except one on initial startup. Maybe we need to post paint events in response to something other than an expose event, when running on the 770. I'd appreciate more information on this. - When creating offscreen images they are created using 24 bit depth since GTK_RGB thinks this is best (why do we ask GTK_RGB for the default pixmap depth and do not simply use the depth the screen is running?). But 770's X server has no colormap assigned to 24-bit mode so it asserts. Yes, I think we currently assume a 24-bit colormap in the GTK peers, which is wrong. I'd like to see this fixed. - Swing propably needs to be extended to allow the virtual keyboard to send key events. How is the virtual keyboard different from a standard keyboard, from X's perspective? I don't see how Swing would be affected. Tom ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Dalibor Topic wrote: On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 23:30 +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Hej, Well, see that's my outsider take. In my view people should join efforts independently of egos. Perhaps I am too idealistic... I am sure if you spend some time researching on the Internet you will find out that many of us are actually sharing code, experiences and helping promote free runtimes regardless of which project they are associated with. I am sorry that my purpose is not clear yet. It will be soon enough. Then you will surely understand why I don't have the time to go around and check old information and then ask if it's current. I've been mentioning and recommending SableVM alongside with JikesRVM, JamVM, IKVM, gcj, Cacao and various other free runtimes in invited presentations and talks ever since I got involved with the free runtimes in 2002, no matter if I was invited to speak about my pet project or not. When Kevin, doing the SableVM talk at FISL 2005, couldn't come, I helped out, and praised the state-of-the-artness of it to the audience, and the brilliance of its authors, and so on, and so on. I'd do it again, too, any time. It's good code, and I have lots of respect for their work. So please spare me the crap talk about egos, since we are doing all that quite successfully. The folks with the big egos (bring me the Stallman or an FSF lawyer's head!) are not in this project. If your pet project doesn't get the attention you think it deserves, try writing some code instead of clogging the list with fanboyism. Do I really need to answer this? I think a lot of people appreciate my interventions. I don't know what fanboyism is (and I don't care to look), but this is the deal: the biggest device manufacturer in the world will be putting free Java on their device, and some coordination is needed to beat the proprietary Java (which Nokia will use if the free Java community does not pull it together). Now, where are you guys coordinating a free embedded Java strategy? I am trying to provoke some kind of debate and hopefully resolution of open issues... There are no open issues. ! SableVM choses to use GNU Classpath, which is cool. They chose not to contribute to its development atm, which is cool, too, since they have shown to be very, very hard to work together with in a professional way, without turning discussions on their head with exactly this sort of arrogant posturing that you've managed to do as well. Congratulations. I'm sorry for being so obscure. The Sable guys are very willing to ditch their classpath tweaks and depend on the real distro. They just don't see it as a priority. Neither would I. If you absolutely need to debate some funny bit of SableVM's history, worldview, or legal theories, please do it on the appropriate lists, or in private. The appropriate list for dissing other GNU Classpath runtimes (and crapping onto projects who write the code your pet project crucially depends on) is not this one, do it where other people don't have to endure such rudeness. Rudeness is purely cultural. Try living in Finland. I was there for almost two years (hint hint). I think competition does diservice to the community... As the history shows, you are clearly wrong. The free runtime community has profited immensely from not focusing on a single VM, but instead nicely routing around the eventually less successful projects by letting a thousand flowers bloom, and helping people help themselves to better software they way they want and need it under the licenses they like. That's why you can chose a pet project to be a fan of, among several alternatives. Chose one, contribute to it, but please keep your stop energy away from people who do real work. How do you defend people wasting their energy on Kaffe, while there is not a bit of anything in it that is unique. Kaffe WAS great. I say pick it apart, plug its bits here and there, and let's all focus on something else. Don't try to tell me you love kaffe more than I do, BTW. There isn't a thousand ways to do a VM. What we need is free VM that is better than any non-free. How are we doing on this one?
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
ext Philippe Laporte wrote: Hi, I'm forwarding this to other relevant lists as well. The 770 window manager is Matchbox: http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/ Is the color map problem already assigned to someone? Expose-events work in 770 normally, bug is in the application/library side, not in Matchbox. Problem with pixmap depth was solved by disabling composite extension in Xomap build (if it does not work, the problem is trivial for application side to fix just by using some other function to query colordepth instead). Best Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Tapani // Tapani Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 13:46 +0100, Clemens Eisserer wrote: Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. Not on the 770, it has several problems but I am not experienced enough to solve them: - Expose events seem not to be sent by X or at least are not received by java. I did some debgugging and as far as I can tell no expose events are sent by X. Interesting. Does the 770 window manager allow overlapping windows or dialogs? Maybe there is no need for expose events except one on initial startup. Maybe we need to post paint events in response to something other than an expose event, when running on the 770. I'd appreciate more information on this. - When creating offscreen images they are created using 24 bit depth since GTK_RGB thinks this is best (why do we ask GTK_RGB for the default pixmap depth and do not simply use the depth the screen is running?). But 770's X server has no colormap assigned to 24-bit mode so it asserts. Yes, I think we currently assume a 24-bit colormap in the GTK peers, which is wrong. I'd like to see this fixed. - Swing propably needs to be extended to allow the virtual keyboard to send key events. How is the virtual keyboard different from a standard keyboard, from X's perspective? I don't see how Swing would be affected. Tom ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 11:11 +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: There isn't a thousand ways to do a VM. What we need is free VM that is better than any non-free. How are we doing on this one? Depends on how you interpret better. Faster? Smaller? ...? TWISTI
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Chris Burdess wrote: Philippe Laporte wrote: I am sorry that my purpose is not clear yet. It will be soon enough. ... when I solve world poverty, and people are bowing down to me in the streets. that's one way to get what I'm writing... Do I really need to answer this? I think a lot of people appreciate my interventions. Not on this list. Now, I think we've pretty much had enough of this. Either talk about Classpath development, or take your recommendations off to alt.troll. I think it's just sad when people don't care about licensing.
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Are we supposed to laugh or cry? :-) Andrew Haley wrote: Philippe Laporte writes: - Sable has a large and active community - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. Cannot open /var/lib/wiki/sablevm.org/page/L/License_FAQ.pg: Permission denied Andrew.
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Philippe Laporte writes: - Sable has a large and active community - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. Cannot open /var/lib/wiki/sablevm.org/page/L/License_FAQ.pg: Permission denied Andrew.
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Philippe Laporte wrote: I am sorry that my purpose is not clear yet. It will be soon enough. ... when I solve world poverty, and people are bowing down to me in the streets. Do I really need to answer this? I think a lot of people appreciate my interventions. Not on this list. Now, I think we've pretty much had enough of this. Either talk about Classpath development, or take your recommendations off to alt.troll. -- 犬 Chris Burdess They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Christian Thalinger wrote: On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 11:11 +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: There isn't a thousand ways to do a VM. What we need is free VM that is better than any non-free. How are we doing on this one? Depends on how you interpret better. Faster? Smaller? ...? CLDC, CDC, J2SE, all of these may have a one to many mapping with open-source VMs, each having their preferred niche. In each of these categories, portability, speed, mem consumption, specs compliance, have different weights. I mean, it might be sometime before we need something Aicas style, but CDC is sure a near-future candidate.
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770:http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ is blocked.
Etienne Gagnon wrote: http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ Etienne The page content is Cannot open /var/lib/wiki/sablevm.org/page/L/License_FAQ.pg: Permission denied. As the page is strongly involved into the current discussion, would you mind giving permissions for the people to read it? Audrius.
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770:http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ is blocked.
uuhhh, it's obvious that it was made so in the last few hours...it was fine before... Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Audrius Meskauskas wrote: Etienne Gagnon wrote: http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ Etienne The page content is Cannot open /var/lib/wiki/sablevm.org/page/L/License_FAQ.pg: Permission denied. As the page is strongly involved into the current discussion, would you mind giving permissions for the people to read it? Audrius.
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi Philippe, Please try to keep the lists on topic. And please keep runtime specific stuff on the specific runtime lists. Don't cross-post unnecessary (others have also done that, it is not just you). People please keep non-classpath specific stuff off the GNU Classpath developers list. GCJ, kaffe, jamvm, sablevm, etc. all have their own mailinglists. When appropriate move the discussion to one of those. GNU Classpath is a bit of a neutral zone. We do all meet here, but we try to focus on the technical issues that are cross-runtime, compiler, execution-environment, platform, etc. And we do try to help each other solving technical issues in a way that is as efficient as possible across platforms. Sure GNU Classpath is part of the GNU solution and obviously GCC/GCJ is a big part of that. But we explicitly work together with all the other environments. We organize meetings with all the other projects (like you saw during Fosdem). And we learn from each other. It isn't a place to criticize or question people or projects on the why or how they run projects their own GNU Classpath based projects. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and I am glad I saw some technical stuff about getting the gtk+ awt peers better on the maemo platform. That is what we want to see here! I don't have the time to go around and check old information and then ask if it's current. Please do your homework. Other people spend time and energy trying to answer questions for you. I am sure not everything is always documented fully and if so please do ask. But please do read a bit more about the projects you are asking questions about before firing off lots questions to this list that could have been resolved by either reading a bit more about the other projects or that could have been asked on a specific other project list. Now, where are you guys coordinating a free embedded Java strategy? There isn't 1 free embedded Java strategy. And from your postings I am not clear which embedded strategy you are looking for. - If it is finding a free J2ME counterpart to GNU Classpath please look in the archives and talk to the people working on that: http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=67 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/2005-11/msg00037.html - If it is finding a really small runtime then go look at jamvm. You met Robert at Fosdem so just send him an email with how you would like to work together. - If it is finding a free WinCE supported environment talk to either the MySaifu developers, the IKVM developers to see if they have a WinCE port (if dotgnu/mono is supported on that), the Kaffe developers wanting to import the old WinCE port or the gcj port (WinCE is not something a lot of people concentrate on since as far as I know it isn't a free platform, but I am sure there are a lot of supporting companies that will be happy to get GCJ fully working for you on it). - If it is finding how to best support maemo then talk to the various GNU/Linux distributors that most closely mimic maemo. They probably use GNU/GCC/GTK+/Gnome as environment for most programs, so talk to them to see how gcj, java-gnome, etc fit in there. This is probably the area were there is the most interest since lots of people already work on a GNU/Linux platform with gtk+ so this is the most attractive option to get the broadest support. On the GNU Classpath mailinglist we coordinate how best to support all the various environments build on top of GNU Classpath. If your talks with the people/projects above lead to some interesting technical issues on how we can improve GNU Classpath to better support such environments then please do contact us again and we will try to help. But please experiment a bit first and make sure you have enough experience with the various projects to focus on technical details. How do you defend people wasting their energy on [Project X], while there is not a bit of anything in it that is unique. Now this is completely inappropriate for this list. And I even doubt it would be appreciated on the Project X mailinglist. Cheers, Mark -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, Thanks for your mail which is very helpful. Mark Wielaard wrote: Hi Philippe, Please try to keep the lists on topic. And please keep runtime specific stuff on the specific runtime lists. Don't cross-post unnecessary (others have also done that, it is not just you). People please keep non-classpath specific stuff off the GNU Classpath developers list. GCJ, kaffe, jamvm, sablevm, etc. all have their own mailinglists. When appropriate move the discussion to one of those. GNU Classpath is a bit of a neutral zone. We do all meet here, but we try to focus on the technical issues that are cross-runtime, compiler, execution-environment, platform, etc. And we do try to help each other solving technical issues in a way that is as efficient as possible across platforms. Sure GNU Classpath is part of the GNU solution and obviously GCC/GCJ is a big part of that. But we explicitly work together with all the other environments. We organize meetings with all the other projects (like you saw during Fosdem). And we learn from each other. It isn't a place to criticize or question people or projects on the why or how they run projects their own GNU Classpath based projects. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and I am glad I saw some technical stuff about getting the gtk+ awt peers better on the maemo platform. That is what we want to see here! So you will admit that what people want to discuss on which list is not crystal clear? So I did my homework: I posted the issue to GNU/FSF lists. I don't have the time to go around and check old information and then ask if it's current. Please do your homework. Other people spend time and energy trying to answer questions for you. I am sure not everything is always documented fully and if so please do ask. But please do read a bit more about the projects you are asking questions about before firing off lots questions to this list that could have been resolved by either reading a bit more about the other projects or that could have been asked on a specific other project list. I trigger issues that you need to resolve. I think I'm doing quite some amount of work myself with all these emails...I find this method more productive for all. I don't agree with you here. I don't think I've asked much obvious QA. Now, where are you guys coordinating a free embedded Java strategy? There isn't 1 free embedded Java strategy. And from your postings I am not clear which embedded strategy you are looking for. - If it is finding a free J2ME counterpart to GNU Classpath please look in the archives and talk to the people working on that: http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=67 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/2005-11/msg00037.html Thanks for the help. I can't say more for now, but I can assure I'm getting ready to contribute something valuable. Really, it's not like I want to keep you guys in the dark forever... - If it is finding a really small runtime then go look at jamvm. Well in my original post I reported building SableVM down to 215K with the new refactoring. So, when you take classpath into account, the difference with JamVM is insignificant. You met Robert at Fosdem so just send him an email with how you would like to work together. If you look at the recent posts on the Jam list you should get the impression Robert and I are doing fine... - If it is finding a free WinCE supported environment talk to either the MySaifu developers, the IKVM developers to see if they have a WinCE port (if dotgnu/mono is supported on that), the Kaffe developers wanting to import the old WinCE port or the gcj port (WinCE is not something a lot of people concentrate on since as far as I know it isn't a free platform, but I am sure there are a lot of supporting companies that will be happy to get GCJ fully working for you on it). Thanks! I don't want someone to do for me, I want to do it myself... Java is about making the OS irrelevant, so I think porting to CE goes along that. - If it is finding how to best support maemo then talk to the various GNU/Linux distributors that most closely mimic maemo. They probably use GNU/GCC/GTK+/Gnome as environment for most programs, so talk to them to see how gcj, java-gnome, etc fit in there. This is probably the area were there is the most interest since lots of people already work on a GNU/Linux platform with gtk+ so this is the most attractive option to get the broadest support. Thanks! It seems to be going well on the maemo list, but yeah, nice to have backups :-) On the GNU Classpath mailinglist we coordinate how best to support all the various environments build on top of GNU Classpath. If your talks with the people/projects above lead to some interesting technical issues on how we can improve GNU Classpath to better support such environments then please do contact us again and we will try to help. But please experiment a bit first and make sure
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:49:42PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: - Sable has a large and active community In the last time the project seems to be very inactive except some mails on the lists. Not true. They just like to keep it low volume for some reason (which I admittedly don't like much). Check again. Anyways, even a community of 2 is better than the JamVM community... Please keep your attacks on other communities and projects on the sablevm lists, where they can be easily ignored. Thank you. cheers, dalibor topic - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. So why do they still think so after such a long time? What would you say? What's the heuristic then? If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics F?rsta L?nggatan 18 41328 G?teborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, You are some character! Luckily you are not the standard... These questions must be asked. They are not attacks. That is your own cultural-specific interpretation... I am an independent party seeking the best embedded VM, that's it, that's all. Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dalibor Topic wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:49:42PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: - Sable has a large and active community In the last time the project seems to be very inactive except some mails on the lists. Not true. They just like to keep it low volume for some reason (which I admittedly don't like much). Check again. Anyways, even a community of 2 is better than the JamVM community... Please keep your attacks on other communities and projects on the sablevm lists, where they can be easily ignored. Thank you. cheers, dalibor topic - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. So why do they still think so after such a long time? What would you say? What's the heuristic then? If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics F?rsta L?nggatan 18 41328 G?teborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, I'm forwarding this to other relevant lists as well. The 770 window manager is Matchbox: http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/ Is the color map problem already assigned to someone? Best Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 13:46 +0100, Clemens Eisserer wrote: Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. Not on the 770, it has several problems but I am not experienced enough to solve them: - Expose events seem not to be sent by X or at least are not received by java. I did some debgugging and as far as I can tell no expose events are sent by X. Interesting. Does the 770 window manager allow overlapping windows or dialogs? Maybe there is no need for expose events except one on initial startup. Maybe we need to post paint events in response to something other than an expose event, when running on the 770. I'd appreciate more information on this. - When creating offscreen images they are created using 24 bit depth since GTK_RGB thinks this is best (why do we ask GTK_RGB for the default pixmap depth and do not simply use the depth the screen is running?). But 770's X server has no colormap assigned to 24-bit mode so it asserts. Yes, I think we currently assume a 24-bit colormap in the GTK peers, which is wrong. I'd like to see this fixed. - Swing propably needs to be extended to allow the virtual keyboard to send key events. How is the virtual keyboard different from a standard keyboard, from X's perspective? I don't see how Swing would be affected. Tom
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Dalibor Topic wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:37:17PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Maemo is the platform for the 770. It doesn't have Java support yet, but when it does it sure can manage CDC, which goes your way, but still, the big guys will want a clear picture, and in the past LGPL has been a go, and GPL a no-go. If that was true, they would not have used a GPLd Linux kernel for the maemo. The big guys can have a clear picture: using a GPLd VM is not different from using a GPLd kernel in their device. Well, I never heard it put it this way, and I cannot say that I agree. But really, why is there such a lack of clarity in these matters? Is there no way to clarity once and for all? Are you saying SableVM is using FUD tactics? They seem to be believe strongly in their position... Believing in something does not make it true. If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer. If you want to know how someone interprets the GPL on their code, ask them. If you want to know how the SableVM devs believe the GPL works on other people's code they 'compete' with, you can have that, too. If you want to know how the GPL works, you can ask the FSF. If you want to know, you ask. If you want to believe, then there is no point in asking as you've already figured out what answers you want, and just need a rational justification for them, like some 'legal FAQ' on some obscure web site. Chose whatever works best for you. :) I don't see things like this. I think it is the ones with the most to lose who have the most influential and relevant opinion. That's Nokia.
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Philippe == Philippe Laporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Philippe Luckily you are not the standard... True, but I think he's pretty fairly representing the community baseline. Philippe These questions must be asked. They are not attacks. That is your own Philippe cultural-specific interpretation... I think he's responding to your comments on JamVM and on Mysaifu. These didn't add much to the conversation, nor were they questions. My personal reaction was to think, how rude and proceed to ignore most of your following messages. Philippe I am an independent party seeking the best embedded VM, that's it, Philippe that's all. That's great. In fact part of the whole point of Classpath is that it enables a wide variety of VMs, each of which can be considered 'best' for a particular niche. What isn't fine is disparaging other people's projects and work. SableVM works best for you -- use it. Tom
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hej, Well, see that's my outsider take. In my view people should join efforts independently of egos. Perhaps I am too idealistic... I am trying to provoke some kind of debate and hopefully resolution of open issues... I will soon launch a project of projects where people from different projects will work together for a common goal which will benefit all. I think competition does diservice to the community... Then, I think it's all good and fine for me to tell other VMs why some VM is better in this or that particular niche. It gives people pointers for one thing. They didn't ask for ti, but you'd have a hard time convincing me they are not contructive and appreciated in the end... Regards, -- Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Tromey wrote: Philippe == Philippe Laporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Philippe Luckily you are not the standard... True, but I think he's pretty fairly representing the community baseline. Philippe These questions must be asked. They are not attacks. That is your own Philippe cultural-specific interpretation... I think he's responding to your comments on JamVM and on Mysaifu. These didn't add much to the conversation, nor were they questions. My personal reaction was to think, how rude and proceed to ignore most of your following messages. Philippe I am an independent party seeking the best embedded VM, that's it, Philippe that's all. That's great. In fact part of the whole point of Classpath is that it enables a wide variety of VMs, each of which can be considered 'best' for a particular niche. What isn't fine is disparaging other people's projects and work. SableVM works best for you -- use it. Tom
[Fwd: Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770]
I'd like to add that Robert and I understand each other. That should be obvious if you look at the Jam recent posts... give me a chance here, I'm all good-will... Original Message Subject:Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 23:30:57 +0100 From: Philippe Laporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: classpath@gnu.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hej, Well, see that's my outsider take. In my view people should join efforts independently of egos. Perhaps I am too idealistic... I am trying to provoke some kind of debate and hopefully resolution of open issues... I will soon launch a project of projects where people from different projects will work together for a common goal which will benefit all. I think competition does diservice to the community... Then, I think it's all good and fine for me to tell other VMs why some VM is better in this or that particular niche. It gives people pointers for one thing. They didn't ask for ti, but you'd have a hard time convincing me they are not contructive and appreciated in the end... Regards, -- Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Tromey wrote: Philippe == Philippe Laporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Philippe Luckily you are not the standard... True, but I think he's pretty fairly representing the community baseline. Philippe These questions must be asked. They are not attacks. That is your own Philippe cultural-specific interpretation... I think he's responding to your comments on JamVM and on Mysaifu. These didn't add much to the conversation, nor were they questions. My personal reaction was to think, how rude and proceed to ignore most of your following messages. Philippe I am an independent party seeking the best embedded VM, that'sit, Philippe that's all. That's great. In fact part of the whole point of Classpath is that it enables a wide variety of VMs, each of which can be considered 'best' for a particular niche. What isn't fine is disparaging other people's projects and work. SableVM works best for you -- use it. Tom -- Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi Dalibor, You just managed to insult the SableVM team. Please stop this; it is unworthy of a great project leader as you. To all involved in this latest waste of bandwidth, please stop this falmewaring. I am tired of all this. As my team and me have been directly attacked, I have to answer a few claims. First, I have only replied to two messages of Michael Koch that reached the SableVM mailing-list. Unfortunately, original authors cross posted to other mailing lists, so my replies went there too. If you like SableVM, good. Use it, share it. It's all there free for you under the GNU LGPL license. If you don't like it, fine too. There's a lot of other free JVM's around. If you think that we're not developing it professionally, great. You can think whatever you want. But, if you intend to go to the public place to claim that we're not professional, then I'll have to step in and defend the reputation of my team. Dalibor, you might have a different interpretation of GNU licenses; there's no use insulting me, or trying to insinuate that I know nothing or that the FSF disagrees with me. For one thing, I have seen no FSF resolution claiming Etienne Gagnon's interpretation is false, nor did I see the reverse. In any big organization, only resolutions voted by the administration or official statements of the organization leaders stand as this organization's opinion. Individuals working for the organization can express their thought; they are not those of the organization. Now a few facts. It appears that: a) according to you or Michael Koch (I don't remember exactly), some FSF legal counsels disagree with my interpretation the GNU GPL as applied to Java virtual machines, yet b) a few years ago, Richard Stallman's answered my questions about using the GNU GPL for SableVM, and he even proposed a GNU GPL exception for SableVM. You might actually remember that I reused this text as a basis for drafting the current GNU Classpath exception to the GNU GPL. (If you don't, others probably do). [If Richard Stallman didn't see a need for any exception to the GNU GPL for SableVM, I don't think he would have taken some of his very precious time to write an exception. Yet, he could have been wrong, too. He is human, after all.] After all these pointless debates, I came to the conclusion that probably both interpretations are right, but in differerent contexts. License interpretation is (as almost anything else in life) not black or white. It is probably useless to debate in the absolute about license interpretation. If it ever came down to a court case, at least here in Canada, the judge would take context into account. In conclusion, Dalibor, please stop the shouting and FUD claims. And, specially, stop insulting the SableVM website by claiming that it is obscure! It is not merely obscure, it is much, much darker: it is sable[*]. :-) Etienne [*] IIRC, sable, in English, means dark black. Dalibor Topic wrote: SableVM choses to use GNU Classpath, which is cool. They chose not to contribute to its development atm, which is cool, too, since they have shown to be very, very hard to work together with in a professional way, without turning discussions on their head with exactly this sort of arrogant posturing that you've managed to do as well. Congratulations. -- Etienne M. Gagnon, Ph.D.http://www.info2.uqam.ca/~egagnon/ SableVM: http://www.sablevm.org/ SableCC: http://www.sablecc.org/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:05 AM, Etienne Gagnon wrote: b) a few years ago, Richard Stallman's answered my questions about using the GNU GPL for SableVM, and he even proposed a GNU GPL exception for SableVM. You might actually remember that I reused this text as a basis for drafting the current GNU Classpath exception to the GNU GPL. (If you don't, others probably do). Wait a minute. The exception has been around in the GCC for years before even classpath was even thought about. -- Pinski
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:05 AM, Etienne Gagnon wrote: b) a few years ago, Richard Stallman's answered my questions about using the GNU GPL for SableVM, and he even proposed a GNU GPL exception for SableVM. You might actually remember that I reused this text as a basis for drafting the current GNU Classpath exception to the GNU GPL. (If you don't, others probably do). Just to reply to this again since it looks like Something is wrong here in general. The exception in classpath is: As a special exception, the copyright holders of this library give you permission to link this library with independent modules to produce an executable, regardless of the license terms of these independent modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under terms of your choice, provided that you also meet, for each linked independent module, the terms and conditions of the license of that module. An independent module is a module which is not derived from or based on this library. If you modify this library, you may extend this exception to your version of the library, but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so, delete this exception statement from your version. Which is in my mind too wordy. The exception from libstdc++/libgfortran/libgcc/etc. (though not libobjc, there is a different exception there but just makes sure you are compiling with gcc, I don't know the history about that and why it is still there. I do in the future want to ask how to change it though): In addition to the permissions in the GNU General Public License, the Free Software Foundation gives you unlimited permission to link the compiled version of this file into combinations with other programs, and to distribute those combinations without any restriction coming from the use of this file. (The General Public License restrictions do apply in other respects; for example, they cover modification of the file, and distribution when not linked into a combine executable.) Lets compare these two, the first says explicitly you can give up the exception while the second one does not. Why and what is the realy a different exception between classpath and libgcc, etc? So the old exception in classpath was: As a special exception, if you link this library with other files to produce an executable, this library does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public License. This exception does not however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be covered by the GNU General Public License. It seems better to use the just to use the canonical form which is the libgcc/etc. wording. What do people think (or do we need to get RMS involved?)? -- Pinski
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, I sent this on another list and forgot to CC this one... For the choice of VM I would recommend SableVM, as with its recent refactoring I built it down to 220 K on Intel with gcc -Os etc. Check out SableVM at www.sablevm.org. We at Gatespace are the people behind Knopflerfish OSGI. I test-drove Knopflerfish's test suite with JamVM and SableVM (both use Classpath), the results were the same, and the speed was comparable. Haven't measured memory consumption yet. We target CDC, so our constraints with respect to that are less strict. Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. I argue for Sable instead of Jam because: - Sable has a large and active community - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. - Sable has an almost complete JIT compiler. Someone needs to put in a build option to Classpath to make it build CLDC only, or any other profile. As for the MIDP implementation, someone is working on it (announced on the wishlist). Best Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right. Most work for that port would be in: - choosing JVM, - create CLDC implementation, - create graphics support (MIDP part) to GTK+. Regards, Bartek Teodorczyk Original Message Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770 From: Jesper Zuschlag [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, March 07, 2006 12:43 pm To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Sound fine. But you will not get far without a Java environment / JVM, which is exactly what we are missing on the Nokia 770. I been having plans for implementing a CLDC JVM on the 770 but I have been waiting for somebody to make 770 development on Mac OS X possible. I don't think it is possible yet. /Jesper On 07/03/2006, at 11.45, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I've read some discussion on that list about the possibility of running J2ME MIDlets on Nokia 770. As I've found, the problem is because of lack of J2ME implementation for that device. I'm an author of MicroEmulator (http://www.sf.net/projects/microemulator) - pure java CLDC/MIDP implementation. I think it would be possible to create port of MicroEmulator on Nokia 770 to fill that gap. If anyone is interesested in that please send info and I could look into more deeply. Regards, Bartek Teodorczyk ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:49:42PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: - Sable has a large and active community In the last time the project seems to be very inactive except some mails on the lists. Not true. They just like to keep it low volume for some reason (which I admittedly don't like much). Check again. Anyways, even a community of 2 is better than the JamVM community... When speaking to them on IRC they always say they have no time for sablevm currently ... I would call this inactive. - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. So why do they still think so after such a long time? What would you say? What's the heuristic then? I dont know why but there is some dispute between sablevm and the rest of the classpath community since a longer time. I dont really know why and I would really like to get this solved. But I guess this will never happen. If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:49:42PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: - Sable has a large and active community In the last time the project seems to be very inactive except some mails on the lists. Not true. They just like to keep it low volume for some reason (which I admittedly don't like much). Check again. Anyways, even a community of 2 is better than the JamVM community... When speaking to them on IRC they always say they have no time for sablevm currently ... I would call this inactive. They just say that. They mean something else. The project is huge and has momentum. - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. So why do they still think so after such a long time? What would you say? What's the heuristic then? I dont know why but there is some dispute between sablevm and the rest of the classpath community since a longer time. I dont really know why and I would really like to get this solved. But I guess this will never happen. How about Nokia money as a solver? :-) If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... Cheers, Michael
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:13:01PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: How about Nokia money as a solver? :-) I dont think money will solve this. If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: - Sable has a large and active community In the last time the project seems to be very inactive except some mails on the lists. Not true. They just like to keep it low volume for some reason (which I admittedly don't like much). Check again. Anyways, even a community of 2 is better than the JamVM community... - Sable is LGPL. GPL does not work for maemo. Read why at http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ. That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. So why do they still think so after such a long time? What would you say? What's the heuristic then? If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... Regards, Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Maemo is the platform for the 770. It doesn't have Java support yet, but when it does it sure can manage CDC, which goes your way, but still, the big guys will want a clear picture, and in the past LGPL has been a go, and GPL a no-go. Are you saying SableVM is using FUD tactics? They seem to be believe strongly in their position...
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:37:17PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Maemo is the platform for the 770. It doesn't have Java support yet, but when it does it sure can manage CDC, which goes your way, but still, the big guys will want a clear picture, and in the past LGPL has been a go, and GPL a no-go. Are you saying SableVM is using FUD tactics? They seem to be believe strongly in their position... There are just two sides with different opinions. They have their opinion. FSF/GNU classpath has theirs. Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-)
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:37:17PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Maemo is the platform for the 770. It doesn't have Java support yet, but when it does it sure can manage CDC, which goes your way, but still, the big guys will want a clear picture, and in the past LGPL has been a go, and GPL a no-go. Are you saying SableVM is using FUD tactics? They seem to be believe strongly in their position... There are just two sides with different opinions. They have their opinion. FSF/GNU classpath has theirs. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Michael, I disagree. I have evidence that the FSF considers our interpretation to be correct; at least, Richard Stallman considered it to be correct a few years ago. Our interpretation of the GNU GPL in the context of a JVM is actually based on a long discussion I had with Richard Stallman a few years ago. If you are so convinced that the FSF thinks that our opinion is wrong, please get an email from Richard Stallman or from an FSF lawyer to state the error in the Complete answer of the first question of our License FAQ: http://sablevm.org/wiki/License_FAQ Etienne Michael Koch wrote: That is only the opinion of the SableVM people. Neither GNU classpath poeple nor FSF considers this to be correct. -- Etienne M. Gagnon, Ph.D.http://www.info2.uqam.ca/~egagnon/ SableVM: http://www.sablevm.org/ SableCC: http://www.sablecc.org/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:49:32PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-) I'm sure they will introduce just another opinion. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:12:41AM -0500, Etienne Gagnon wrote: Hi Michael, Just for the record, SableVM is being worked on full-time actively by, at least, 7 people which are students of mine (and I am not counting myself there, as I work part-time on it). I would not consider this inactive. :-) Usually, they have little time for working on issues that are not in their core interest (their research project within SableVM). Supporting users on mailing-lists and IRC is usually not their top priority; this probably explains the answers you got on IRC about people not having time. I have tried encouraging them to be more vocal on our mailing-lists, but I have little success; I guess that many are shy of writing there as they dot not use English often. Thanks for this explanation. Its good to hear that you work so hard on sablevm. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Philippe Laporte Software Gatespace Telematics Första Långgatan 18 41328 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46 702 04 35 11 Fax: +46 31 24 16 50 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Weinehall David (Nokia-M/Tampere) wrote: On tis, 2006-03-07 at 15:26 +0100, ext Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:49:32PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-) I'm sure they will introduce just another opinion. ok, but what assets does FSF have to lose...? Freedom? I mean who is gonna sue FSF for some opinion?
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. Not on the 770, it has several problems but I am not experienced enough to solve them: - Expose events seem not to be sent by X or at least are not received by java. I did some debgugging and as far as I can tell no expose events are sent by X. - When creating offscreen images they are created using 24 bit depth since GTK_RGB thinks this is best (why do we ask GTK_RGB for the default pixmap depth and do not simply use the depth the screen is running?). But 770's X server has no colormap assigned to 24-bit mode so it asserts. - Swing propably needs to be extended to allow the virtual keyboard to send key events. lg Clemens
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 03:26:25PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:49:32PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-) I'm sure they will introduce just another opinion. ok, but what assets does FSF have to lose...? Freedom. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:49:32PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: There are just two sides with different opinions. They have their opinion. FSF/GNU classpath has theirs. Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-) Absolutely. We're developers, not lawyers. That being said... The general (non-SableVM) common sense consensus should be that if your code can run unmodified on any JVM, Sun's especially, then really what license the JVM and class library themselves use is pretty irrelevant. This is using a common and published interface. Doing the above should be your aim anyway, to give businesses the most flexibility to use any JVM they can (be it CVM, SableVM, J9, Wonka, etc) With that dealt with, what your own application code links to (ie loading JNI libraries from application code or importing, say, the BouncyCastle java libraries for crypto) is entirely your problem - regardless of which JVM+Classlib you run under. Thanks, Steph -- Stephane Meslin-Weber Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Software Engineer Web: http://odonata.tangency.co.uk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Michael Koch wrote: On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:49:32PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: Well then we all want to know what Nokia's legions of lawyers have to say...:-) I'm sure they will introduce just another opinion. ok, but what assets does FSF have to lose...?
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi Michael, Just for the record, SableVM is being worked on full-time actively by, at least, 7 people which are students of mine (and I am not counting myself there, as I work part-time on it). I would not consider this inactive. :-) Usually, they have little time for working on issues that are not in their core interest (their research project within SableVM). Supporting users on mailing-lists and IRC is usually not their top priority; this probably explains the answers you got on IRC about people not having time. I have tried encouraging them to be more vocal on our mailing-lists, but I have little success; I guess that many are shy of writing there as they dot not use English often. Etienne Michael Koch wrote: When speaking to them on IRC they always say they have no time for sablevm currently ... -- Etienne M. Gagnon, Ph.D.http://www.info2.uqam.ca/~egagnon/ SableVM: http://www.sablevm.org/ SableCC: http://www.sablecc.org/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
Hi, On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 13:46 +0100, Clemens Eisserer wrote: Classpath's AWT of course runs on top of GTK+. Not on the 770, it has several problems but I am not experienced enough to solve them: - Expose events seem not to be sent by X or at least are not received by java. I did some debgugging and as far as I can tell no expose events are sent by X. Interesting. Does the 770 window manager allow overlapping windows or dialogs? Maybe there is no need for expose events except one on initial startup. Maybe we need to post paint events in response to something other than an expose event, when running on the 770. I'd appreciate more information on this. - When creating offscreen images they are created using 24 bit depth since GTK_RGB thinks this is best (why do we ask GTK_RGB for the default pixmap depth and do not simply use the depth the screen is running?). But 770's X server has no colormap assigned to 24-bit mode so it asserts. Yes, I think we currently assume a 24-bit colormap in the GTK peers, which is wrong. I'd like to see this fixed. - Swing propably needs to be extended to allow the virtual keyboard to send key events. How is the virtual keyboard different from a standard keyboard, from X's perspective? I don't see how Swing would be affected. Tom
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 09:24 -0500, Etienne Gagnon wrote: Michael, I disagree. I have evidence that the FSF considers our interpretation to be correct; at least, Richard Stallman considered it to be correct a few years ago. Our interpretation of the GNU GPL in the context of a JVM is actually based on a long discussion I had with Richard Stallman a few years ago. I have evidence to the contrary, based on my discussion with FSF's GPL compliance officer last year. The FSF does not consider your interpretation to be correct. Debian-legal has already rejected your interpretations two times in a row. They don't hold up to peer review. It's been discussed in depth more than a few times where all the errors are in your interpretations, by several developers. There is no need for others to go over your problems understanding the GPL again and again, as you know where the debian-legal archives are if you want to reread the discussions. cheers, dalibor topic
Re: [Jamvm-general] Re: [maemo-developers] J2ME on Nokia 770
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 02:37:17PM +0100, Philippe Laporte wrote: If you link native to a GPL VM, then that code must also be GPL, no? That is an absolute requirement in the embedded world... That is true. But running java bytecode in with a GPL vm and loading JNI libs during that doenst render all the java/native code you run with the VM to GPL. and this context does not apply to CLDC... I don't know much about Maemo. Perhaps you should be more clear on what you really need/want to do. Maemo is the platform for the 770. It doesn't have Java support yet, but when it does it sure can manage CDC, which goes your way, but still, the big guys will want a clear picture, and in the past LGPL has been a go, and GPL a no-go. If that was true, they would not have used a GPLd Linux kernel for the maemo. The big guys can have a clear picture: using a GPLd VM is not different from using a GPLd kernel in their device. Are you saying SableVM is using FUD tactics? They seem to be believe strongly in their position... Believing in something does not make it true. If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer. If you want to know how someone interprets the GPL on their code, ask them. If you want to know how the SableVM devs believe the GPL works on other people's code they 'compete' with, you can have that, too. If you want to know how the GPL works, you can ask the FSF. If you want to know, you ask. If you want to believe, then there is no point in asking as you've already figured out what answers you want, and just need a rational justification for them, like some 'legal FAQ' on some obscure web site. Chose whatever works best for you. :) cheers, dalibor topic
