Stus-List Boat buying
Hey I find it amusing that everyone states ‘good boats are cheap and a dime a dozen’ but the people trying to actually find a boat to buy are never able to find those boats. The actual boat buying people state ‘all i see are crap overpriced boats’. So the truth must be somewhere in the middle. You are not going to find a 35 boat in excellent condition for $25k. Barry. Sent from iPad On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:49 AM -0600, wrote: Send CnC-List mailing list submissions to cnc-list@cnc-list.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com You can reach the person managing the list at cnc-list-ow...@cnc-list.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. C&C as offshore boat? (Shawn Wright) 2. Re: C&C 35-2 concerns (Matthew L. Wolford) 3. Re: Delivery Captain? (Danny Haughey) 4. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: C&C 35-2 concerns (Della Barba, Joe) 5. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: C&C 35-2 concerns (Shawn Wright) 6. Re: question (Robert Boyer) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 08:21:05 -0700 From: Shawn Wright To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List C&C as offshore boat? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I'm going to switch things up a bit from the gloomy topic of my current boat purchase: how many of you have taken your C&C offshore, and if so, which boat, where to, and how did it manage the conditions? If you have not gone offshore, what are the worst conditions you've experienced in a C&C, and how would the performance of the boat in these conditions make you feel about taking it offshore? One of the very first boats we looked at was a Westsail 32 (don't laugh), partly because they are proven world cruisers, and the boat has been from BC to NZ and back. But with our fickle air in the summer here, a good light air boat seems like a better choice, but I also want something that can take a beating without worrying about our safety. -- Shawn Wright shawngwri...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:31:11 -0400 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" To: Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C 35-2 concerns Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Other issues are fresh water v. salt water, regional economic conditions, how far away you?re willing to look (with inspection/delivery complications), etc. It sounds like you?re down to two issues, specifically the electrical system and the complicated engine (although you know a lot about VWs). If I were in your position (and I?m not), I would factor in the cost of greatly simplifying or replacing the engine and upgrading the electrical system. At $22K, this probably gets you to around $30K, with the added costs deferred until you can get to them. To the extent you can (and are willing) to do the work yourself, this reduces the increase. Sails can also be expensive for a 35 foot boat, which should be a big consideration. If the ?actual? cost and aggravation is worth it to you, buy the boat. If not, keep looking. There is no magic bullet. From: Shawn Wright via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:12 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Shawn Wright Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C 35-2 concerns Matthew, Interestingly, this boat has had much of the work you describe done by the previous owner - hull & deck painted, barrier coat, delamination fixed with epoxy, new holding tank, retabbed bulkheads. The electrical panel is ugly and original, and the engine install is very complex and messy, although functional. I would find it much easier to walk away if I hadn't been at this search for a year already and seen how few good boats there are here for $25K. My backup plan is to buy a nice $10K boat and keep looking for the right boat. It seems crazy that there are plenty of really nice, clean 28-29' boats for $10K, but once you get to 30', the price doubles. If I'm willing to consider a lesser known boat, like a Crown 34 or San Juan 34 (same boat basically), there is one of each in really nice shape for $24K. Although they are pretty decent boats, I don't like the interior layout as much. On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 7:59 AM Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List wrote: IMHO, you can get a lot of boat for $20K these days if you?re willing to buy an older one and have the patience to find a good one. I paid $25K for my 1978 34 in the 1990s. I ended up selling it about six years ago for $22K. In the meantime, I repainted the hull, added a barrier coat on the bottom, rep
Stus-List boat buying
Shopping for a boat may seem daunting and nerve racking, but try to make it a fun experience. Take time and travel to sailing meccas that may be in your future cruising plans. I went to Newport and Annapolis. You might try Toronto or other cities nearby that have many sailboats, and great waterfront restaurants to discuss the top candidates. You can imagine owning any boat until you sign papers. Then you have nothing but anxiety about if you made the right decision, and endless bills unless you can trailer the boat home. Winter storage, slip fees, insurance, bottom paint, etc. Sorry, but true, and somehow it's all worth it. Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Atlantic City, NJ - Original Message - From: "Stevan Plavsa" To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 11:36:04 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Another boat Keep looking and don't settle. I got my 32 for 18k, that's right in your ballpark. I was originally looking for 27s and 29s but I didn't find any that were reasonably priced or even in reasonable shape. I went to look at the 32 on a whim because it was the closest boat to me, and a broker boat no less .. something I'de been avoiding up to that point. I had driven to NY to look at boats on the south shore of Lake Ontario, not a complete waste of time because it helped me compare and understand the market better. And you know what? The 32, literally 5 minutes from my house, was easily in way better shape than any of the boats I'de looked at up to that point. I was sold on it instantly. It was more boat than I hoped for and it was in reach. Life is short and I can be pretty impulsive so I made an offer, had it surveyed and bought the boat. I think the PO was happy to get the 18k and I think he was happy to deal with me, we got along great. Some other guy was in line before me but he was a huge hassle for the seller. I lucked out, the PO was a great guy. I don't race so my requirements may be different than yours. My boat is a freshwater boat and it surveyed well. The sails were worn out and I just spent $1600 (shipping in!) all told on a genoa from Rolly Tasker, it's a great sail and an incredible value. The main is still usable and will be for a couple of years yet. Canvas is still good, not great, but doesn't need replacing. but I have spent a lot. I've spent money refurbishing the head/tanks/freshwater/wiring/instruments/stereo/solar and the list goes on. A boat that has had that stuff done is worth more, but then, if you do it yourself it's really YOUR boat. My boat is MY boat! I EARNED it because I fixed the shit out of it! Steve Suhana, C&C 32 Toronto On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Knowles Rich < r...@sailpower.ca > wrote: How about having a peek at my LF 38 just to get another picture? Rich Knowles Indigo. LF 38 Halifax NS On 2013-08-01, at 20:27, "Dr. Mark Bodnar" < drbod...@accesswave.ca > wrote: > > Thanks for all the comments. > > Danny - Yes - I'm aware the "good condition" sails and the "year or 2" left > in the canvas are pointing at need for replacement before long. Guy selling > the boat seems pretty straight, so I don't think he's over valuing the sails > and they are totally shot. > As for the Nada value and the price - it is my understanding the NADA value > is US based, boats locally list for a lot more than that. Not much I can do > other than buy a boat in the US and ship/sail it back. As Mike noted - the > cost of that adds up quickly. Rough quote to ship a 30 back from NY was over > $6000 by land. I could have it sailed back for $2000, but I'd still have the > expense of going down to look and having to pay for required repairs at a > unfamiliar yard before it could sail home. > > Bob's example of a good condition 29 for $13500 - plus the cradle ends up > being ~$15500. Then add the cost of getting it home (either I take a week off > work or I pay to have it sailed back) - total $17-18000. He likely has better > sails but the price is pretty close in the end. > > In this case the boat has a pretty good trailer - value of ~ $2000, saving me > the cost of buying a cradle. Another 29-2 for sale locally is listed at > $26000 with racing sails. 30's listed for $22-3 (at the cheaper end they > are in rough shape, needing new sails and deck work). > > Having looked at this boat I think I'd be happy to get it for $17000 - but I > doubt he'll sell it for that. Maybe I'm off in my value because all the boat > prices are listed so high and the actual selling prices are much lower. > > Stevan - I had my eye on a nice 32 - but it sold (apparently in brilliant > shape and sold for ~$3). I'd consider anything from a 29 to a 33. Still > trying to keep costs down (total purchase and up-keep) while finding a boat > big enough to enjoy with the kids. 29 is the smallest I think that could > work. When I was on a 33 2weeks ago it seemed huge inside, yet not muc
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
I walked away from a boat which had sea trialed quite nicely (not C&C). But, when we hauled her my surveyor started with the moisture meter on her and I went up the dock to the little boy's room. Came back and the surveyor was sitting next to the boat. I was wondering if I was paying all that money for 15 minutes work. He said the hull was fine. But, then he said the mast boot had leaked a lot and the bulkheads inside her were all wet - up about a foot - including the major bulkhead which supported the mast!!! Long trip across the bay to look, but I was so happy - I would never had guessed because the boat was so very clean. By the way, the message I was replying to was about a mile long - get rid of the old stuff! Gary ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Boat buying tips
I second pretty much everything said so far. A contract subject to survey, engine inspection, rigging inspection and sea trial can save you from a bad boat. It will cost more, but still be way better than a bad buy! And no matter how much you really "want" the boat you are looking at, don't hesitate to walk. I have had varied results with surveyors. Between Jubillee (our 35 MK 1), the 37+ I passed on after it failed a sea trial, and Alera, the quality of the surveys vary a great deal. The ability to do the full moisture analysis is especially important, as stated already. The best survey I got was on Jubilee and the surveyor actually specialized in commercial fishing vessels. His did not have much sailboat savvy, but he was thorough and provided a punch list of everything that needed to be done including photos, which was a huge help for us as rookies. And no matter how good the surveyor is, and how little you think you know, follow them through the process and do your own back up. Ask questions and press them throughout the process. Everyone has an off day. The toughest thing you will have to deal with the possibility of no sea trial. It saved my ass on one possible purchase when we were looking for our 37+. Than, we bought Alera without one. She was on the hard at Niagara on the Lake in November. iBut she only had 480 hrs on the engine and had obviously been babied. Also, my brother was familiar with her and her PO. Gert Teil's survey was not very detailed at all, but since both he and several others involved in the sale were C&C factory veterans, I still had a high comfort level. If things had been different, it might have been prudent to pay the cost related to taking her out. But my gut told me she was our boat! Finally, don't let the broker push you or rush you...not in this market. I have had brokers push back on a request for anything more than a few weeks to get everything done. But you should ask for as much time as you need with a pad because shit happens. One last thing...listen to your heart...if she's your boat, she'll speak to you. Tom Buscaglia Alera 1990 C&C 37+/40 Vashon WA On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:54 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote: > Send CnC-List mailing list submissions to >cnc-list@cnc-list.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at >cnc-list-ow...@cnc-list.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Boat buying tips (Us) > 2. Re: Babystay adjuster (Ted Drossos) > 3. Re: Boat buying tips (Josh Muckley) > 4. Re: Boat buying tips (Joel Aronson) > 5. Re: Boat buying tips (Josh Muckley) > 6. Re: Boat buying tips (Marek Dziedzic) > 7. Re: More Half-Hull Model Updates (Paul Baker) > 8. Re: More Half-Hull Model Updates (Andrew Burton) > 9. Re: More Half-Hull Model Updates (djhaug...@juno.com) > 10. Re: More Half-Hull Model Updates (Andrew Burton) > 11. Re: More Half-Hull Model Updates (djhaug...@juno.com) > > > ------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:18:47 -0500 > From: Us > To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" > Cc: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" > Subject: Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips > Message-ID: <4e1bdd64-fa23-4d2a-be1f-bc67b5168...@bellsouth.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > David and I looked for a C&C 37/40+ boat for over two years to find the right > one for us (condition), and while I agree with the volume of advice you have > received, there is one area that wasn't covered. (Please excuse me) We hired > a naval architect that performs surveys using a Flir thermal imaging camera > so we could look thru the fiberglass at the balsa core. A wet core shows up > as a different color. We wanted to make sure that she was the right one in > every way. > > C&C makes an awesome boat, their performance has been unsurpassed in racing > and cruising from the first 40' we sailed to Block Island in the 70's to our > 1983 29 MKII, the C &C 99 we crewed/raced on for 5 years, and the 37/40+ we > have owned/raced & cruised for 1.5 years. Construction is solid compared to > other models and in the case of our 1990 vintage, we were pleased to find the > thru hulls do not have any balsa core around them. > > We echo what you have been told in the email string
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
All very good tips. I would add to look thoroughly for a good surveyor. I bet that this list can help. Another source is the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (www.marinesurvey.org). I would pick at least a couple and talk to them (interview them). You want to make sure that they are working for you (not the boat owner, not the broker, not the bank). Be prepared that a good survey will cost you (min $500), but this might be one of the better investments in your future boat. I walked away from one boat after the surveyor told me to "run as quickly as you can" (after he stopped counting blisters at around 150 mark). Theoretically, there is nothing you could not repair in the boat, but the sea trial should show any leaks, how the boat handles, how the sails work, how the motor works. If you look at the price list that was included here before, you would be gambling several $k without one. One extra price item - transporting boat (if you decide to pick another one) is not cheap, either ($1k-5k and more). Good luck. Marek In Ottawa ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
Agreed Joel, Over all I was disappointed with what a standard survey included. I had two in less than a month on two different boats with different surveyors. If not for needing it for the financing I would opt next time for an engine and rigging survey alone. I can swing a moisture meter, and verify the systems "work". There is probably an "inspection check" list for free on the internet that would be as helpful as the surveyors were. Josh -- Want to email me privately? Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard Then get my public key at: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yU0R5RHBOS2h3MFk/edit On Feb 26, 2013 10:32 PM, "Joel Aronson" wrote: > You might also want to consider a rigging survey. My surveyor could not > see a broken tang. Luckily I had a furler installed, so my rigger saw it > before I lost the rig. It was an expensive, unwelcome surprise. > > Joel > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 26, 2013, at 10:27 PM, Josh Muckley wrote: > > The haul and launch are sold as a pair so the previous haul covers the > launch. But if you don't buy then you are responsible for putting it back > on the hard. Other than that all costs are yours. That's kinda why you > want a contract...so that the money you are investing can't be sold out > from under you. The owner would normally make the boat ready for sale and > sail but in this case the brokerage will get the yard to do it. I would > expect that they pay to make it ready but you pay to re-winterize. > > A good reason for a sea-trial is to run the engine. Running it on the > hard is difficult and WILL NOT reveal 100% of the potential problems. You > need full throttle runs. I even suggest full throttle while tied to the > dock. During this test watch the shaft seal. Watch for black smoke. > Listen for vibration. Check for proper alternator current. If the prop is > set correctly you probably won't get full RPM (3200-3600), there is just > too much load. Once that is complete, motor out and get to full throttle. > Now you should be able to get to full rated RPM. Find out what the hull > speed is prior to the sea trial. Compare how close you are able to get. A > properly adjusted prop will get you to hull speed at about full RPM. > Remember all the drive train together could cost more than $10k. Think you > don't need an engine? Think again. I was forced to deliver mine 350 miles > without one. I needed it! > > The sea trial also gives a better idea of the sail condition. You can't > tell if a sail is "blown out" until you sail it. You may not find problems > with the running rigging or the furler until they are put to use. > Electronics might reveal problems too. Depth sounder, auto helm, GPS, > radar, speed log. If it has any of these devices, there value is a big fat > zero if there is ANY hiccup. > > Josh Muckley > > -- > Want to email me privately? Check out: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard > Then get my public key at: > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yU0R5RHBOS2h3MFk/edit > On Feb 26, 2013 9:25 PM, "David Knecht" wrote: > >> You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat >> we are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really >> appreciate all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. >> The boat is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not >> occurred to me that we would throw it in the water in February (March by >> the time this would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty >> cold up here, but it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run >> the engine and check the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine >> survey, but what else? It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific >> goals of the sea trial? I gather that it would then be hauled again and >> re-winterized? Who pays for the launching, prepping, hauling and >> re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave >> >> David Knecht >> 50 Farmstead Rd. >> Storrs, CT 06268 >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album >> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com >> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> >> ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
You might also want to consider a rigging survey. My surveyor could not see a broken tang. Luckily I had a furler installed, so my rigger saw it before I lost the rig. It was an expensive, unwelcome surprise. Joel Sent from my iPad On Feb 26, 2013, at 10:27 PM, Josh Muckley wrote: The haul and launch are sold as a pair so the previous haul covers the launch. But if you don't buy then you are responsible for putting it back on the hard. Other than that all costs are yours. That's kinda why you want a contract...so that the money you are investing can't be sold out from under you. The owner would normally make the boat ready for sale and sail but in this case the brokerage will get the yard to do it. I would expect that they pay to make it ready but you pay to re-winterize. A good reason for a sea-trial is to run the engine. Running it on the hard is difficult and WILL NOT reveal 100% of the potential problems. You need full throttle runs. I even suggest full throttle while tied to the dock. During this test watch the shaft seal. Watch for black smoke. Listen for vibration. Check for proper alternator current. If the prop is set correctly you probably won't get full RPM (3200-3600), there is just too much load. Once that is complete, motor out and get to full throttle. Now you should be able to get to full rated RPM. Find out what the hull speed is prior to the sea trial. Compare how close you are able to get. A properly adjusted prop will get you to hull speed at about full RPM. Remember all the drive train together could cost more than $10k. Think you don't need an engine? Think again. I was forced to deliver mine 350 miles without one. I needed it! The sea trial also gives a better idea of the sail condition. You can't tell if a sail is "blown out" until you sail it. You may not find problems with the running rigging or the furler until they are put to use. Electronics might reveal problems too. Depth sounder, auto helm, GPS, radar, speed log. If it has any of these devices, there value is a big fat zero if there is ANY hiccup. Josh Muckley -- Want to email me privately? Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard Then get my public key at: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yU0R5RHBOS2h3MFk/edit On Feb 26, 2013 9:25 PM, "David Knecht" wrote: > You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we > are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate > all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat > is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to > me that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this > would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but > it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and > check the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what > else? It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea > trial? I gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who > pays for the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
The haul and launch are sold as a pair so the previous haul covers the launch. But if you don't buy then you are responsible for putting it back on the hard. Other than that all costs are yours. That's kinda why you want a contract...so that the money you are investing can't be sold out from under you. The owner would normally make the boat ready for sale and sail but in this case the brokerage will get the yard to do it. I would expect that they pay to make it ready but you pay to re-winterize. A good reason for a sea-trial is to run the engine. Running it on the hard is difficult and WILL NOT reveal 100% of the potential problems. You need full throttle runs. I even suggest full throttle while tied to the dock. During this test watch the shaft seal. Watch for black smoke. Listen for vibration. Check for proper alternator current. If the prop is set correctly you probably won't get full RPM (3200-3600), there is just too much load. Once that is complete, motor out and get to full throttle. Now you should be able to get to full rated RPM. Find out what the hull speed is prior to the sea trial. Compare how close you are able to get. A properly adjusted prop will get you to hull speed at about full RPM. Remember all the drive train together could cost more than $10k. Think you don't need an engine? Think again. I was forced to deliver mine 350 miles without one. I needed it! The sea trial also gives a better idea of the sail condition. You can't tell if a sail is "blown out" until you sail it. You may not find problems with the running rigging or the furler until they are put to use. Electronics might reveal problems too. Depth sounder, auto helm, GPS, radar, speed log. If it has any of these devices, there value is a big fat zero if there is ANY hiccup. Josh Muckley -- Want to email me privately? Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard Then get my public key at: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yU0R5RHBOS2h3MFk/edit On Feb 26, 2013 9:25 PM, "David Knecht" wrote: > You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we > are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate > all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat > is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to > me that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this > would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but > it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and > check the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what > else? It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea > trial? I gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who > pays for the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David and I looked for a C&C 37/40+ boat for over two years to find the right one for us (condition), and while I agree with the volume of advice you have received, there is one area that wasn't covered. (Please excuse me) We hired a naval architect that performs surveys using a Flir thermal imaging camera so we could look thru the fiberglass at the balsa core. A wet core shows up as a different color. We wanted to make sure that she was the right one in every way. C&C makes an awesome boat, their performance has been unsurpassed in racing and cruising from the first 40' we sailed to Block Island in the 70's to our 1983 29 MKII, the C &C 99 we crewed/raced on for 5 years, and the 37/40+ we have owned/raced & cruised for 1.5 years. Construction is solid compared to other models and in the case of our 1990 vintage, we were pleased to find the thru hulls do not have any balsa core around them. We echo what you have been told in the email strings below but also add that having a surveyor that has a thermal imaging camera is huge. The end result is a boat that points like nobody's business and weather racing or cruising does so beautifully. Good luck to you in your search and negotiations, may you have fair winds... Joanne & David Obsession 37/40+ Sent from my iPad On Feb 26, 2013, at 9:24 PM, David Knecht wrote: > You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we > are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate > all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat is > on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to me > that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this would > happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but it > makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and check the > prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what else? It > will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea trial? I > gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who pays for > the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, Just a thought for you. Before owning my C&C, my previous boat was an Alberg 37 which I bought while it was in the water at a marina. During negotiations, I insisted on a survey and a sea-trial as conditions of the purchase. We sea-trialed with the surveyor on board and all was fine until we raised sail. No one else felt it, but I felt there was something wrong with the rudder. I felt a strange sort of "flexing"...I don't know how to describe it better. When we hauled the boat for the second part of the survey, we found a hairline split in the rudder which evidently opened when the rudder was under load. It was so small a crack when there was no load that the surveyor might well have missed it had he not been alerted to the problem by the sea-trial. Armed with this knowledge, I negotiated enough on the price that I was able to have the rudder pulled and completely rebuilt. When the rebuilder took it apart, it was clear that the rudder post had broken loose internally. I only mention this because I think a sea-trial, in addition to an independent survey, should be a part of every boat purchase. Bill Hartman 1985 C&C Landfall 39 In a message dated 2/26/2013 9:25:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidakne...@gmail.com writes: You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to me that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and check the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what else? It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea trial? I gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who pays for the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave David Knecht 50 Farmstead Rd. Storrs, CT 06268 = ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
You're almost certainly going to be on the nut for that. If you want to avoid that cost, delay your closing until after spring. commissioning. Or close and keep some kind of holdback pending sea trial. Of course, there are fewer degrees of freedom (for both parties) if you do this. Or, if the only concern is the engine, run it while the boat's still on the hard... Which is probably what I would do. Cheers Colin On 2/26/13, David Knecht wrote: > You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we > are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate > all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat > is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to me > that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this > would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but > it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and check > the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what else? > It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea trial? I > gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who pays for > the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > -- Sent from my mobile device ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
You guys are fabulous and one of the reasons I am excited that the boat we are likely to end up with turns out to be another C&C. I really appreciate all the advice. One question from the responses- the sea trial. The boat is on the hard with rig up and engine winterized. It had not occurred to me that we would throw it in the water in February (March by the time this would happen) and go for a motor/sail- it is still pretty cold up here, but it makes sense. I can see the importance of this to run the engine and check the prop (Maxprop), and I like the idea of an engine survey, but what else? It will sail like a C&C, so what are the specific goals of the sea trial? I gather that it would then be hauled again and re-winterized? Who pays for the launching, prepping, hauling and re-winterizing? Thanks- Dave David Knecht 50 Farmstead Rd. Storrs, CT 06268 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, Do your research. Do your own, thorough, preliminary survey. Look at recent market prices. Look at comparable boats and ask yourself why not this one instead. Look at sail inventory, engine, and drive train. The surveyor will probably not perform a detailed engine/drive train survey. Consider paying for and engine survey too. Look at how long the boat has been on the market. Determine how bad you want the boat. Low ball them 10-20% of what you think a "fair" market price is depending on how bad you want the boat. If they accept then you will get a contract. They will expect ~10% to hold the contract. The contract will prevent the seller from selling out from under you to a higher bidder. During the contract window you can back out at any time up to the closing date. You can't take delivery till the delivery date. Expect about a month from signing to closing and 1-2 weeks after closing for delivery. Everything is negotiable but there is a "norm". During the contract window you have to get a survey, insurance and financing. The bank will need the survey and about 2 weeks to approve the loan. If the boat is on the hard leave it till the surveyor has done a bottom inspection. You pay for launch. If in the water pay for a haul and block so that the surveyor can survey the bottom. If it is winterized, get all the systems flushed and ready for operation before the survey. If you back out of the contract you will be responsible for all the costs to put the boat back to the "as found" condition (re-winterize and launch/haul). As for the bottom you could negotiate it but you'll probably do just as good or better getting you're local yard to do it. Just have to see. The survey may reveal some things to help negotiate a new bottom. Look specifically for the C&C smile. The fairing compound around the keel to hull joint can crack if the boat was sailed hard. Some people worry about it, some don't. Some people have spent considerable amounts of money and time fighting it, others just smile back. I haven't found one but I would give priority to a surveyor that is willing to so a survey of the standing rigging aloft as well as one that is willing to verify torque on the keel bolts. Some price reminders are as follows: Rudder rebuild = ~$4000 Any single sail = ~$3000 Max Prop = ~$3000 Max Prop rebuild = ~$1000 Transmission = ~$2000 Engine = ~$5000 Full bottom blister repair = ~$8000 Algrip just the hull = ~$8000 Electronics don't really improve the boat's value. Use some of those prices as a guide for how much you may be in for once the boat is yours. After the survey you will have ammo for lowering your price or negotiating repairs. Remember, if the price to value ratio is too far off, the bank won't finance. This is actually a good reason to use financing even if you were planning on paying cash. The bank may keep you from making a bad emotional decision. They did for me. Let the list know how things go. Good Luck, Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:10 PM, David Knecht wrote: > I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in > my sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price > and then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced > with the buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. > Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can > one find out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The > boat is owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I > have the impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move > it. Are there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are > there things I can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, > the boat has GPS, but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be > part of the negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the > ownership cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one > nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready > for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > -- Want to email me privately? Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard Then get my public key at: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yU0R5RHBOS2h3MFk/edit ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, Ditto the others' advice. Make offer subject to survey. Don't use the broker's surveyor. I personally wouldn't include instruments or bottom. I'd rather deal directly with an instrument installer and a boat yard for the bottom. I wouldn't want the broker in the middle of these if an issue comes up. Further, it allows you to do the research and chose your own instrument installer and/or boat yard. Be advised the instruments may have transducers that need to be installed at haul out anyway. I personally would want to supervise the bottom work and specify the paint, etc. If you're going to do the bottom work immediately after purchase, you might try to escrow some $$ in case there's work the surveyor misses. The broker won't like it. Good luck, Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA > > From: David Knecht >To: CnC CnC discussion list >Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:10 PM >Subject: Stus-List Boat buying tips > > >I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my >sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and >then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the >buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one >negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find out >what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is owned >by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the >impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are >there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+? Are there things I >can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, >but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the >negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership >cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave > > >David Knecht >50 Farmstead Rd. >Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > >___ >This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album >http://www.cncphotoalbum.com >CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > >___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
Re the instruments: from a buying perspective, any instruments older than a year should play a very minor part to none in the negotiations and new gear to come should not figure in the price at all. Keep it focused on the boat. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax On 2013-02-26, at 19:22, Andrew Burton wrote: David, pretty much everything's negotiable. But the order to do is: negotiate before the survey, then make an offer "subject to survey." Don't use the broker's surveyor. Ask here for a recommendation. A broker should have a list of what other boats like yours have sold for, but I doubt the selling broker is the right one to ask. I would expect to pay less for a boat without instruments and include the fact that you'll have to install them in the price. Maybe make the price you pay subject to the dealer getting you a good price on the gear you want. As for the bottom, you can include a line in the deal that they prepare the bottom for the coming season, but be specific: ask that sand and spray the bottom with seven coats of fuschia Exoti-Coat then wet sand and burnish to 7 million grit, or you'll just get a coat of bucket ends rolled on an hour before launch. Like anything on a boat, it'll just cost more. negotiate hard. There are lots of boats on the market at the moment...though I understand that may change once people in NJ start getting insurance checks. Cheers Andy C&C 40 Peregrine On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:10 PM, David Knecht wrote: > I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my > sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and > then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the > buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one > negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find > out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is > owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the > impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are > there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are there things I > can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, > but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the > negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership > cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, > whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? > Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > -- Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Ave Newport, RI USA 02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ phone +401 965 5260 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
I would start out by offering the broker 40% of the current asking price, subject to your surveyor's survey & sea trail. Watch the broker's reaction and you should be able to clearly see just how far they are willing to go to sell you the boat without wasting a of of your time.. Also, ask for the name & phone number of the previous owner and give him/her a call. Most important of all is to keep in mind that it is a buyer's market out there, just ask the members of this list. Jack Fitzgerald C&C 39 TM HONEY US12788 In a message dated 2/26/2013 6:22:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a.burton.sai...@gmail.com writes: David, pretty much everything's negotiable. But the order to do is: negotiate before the survey, then make an offer "subject to survey." Don't use the broker's surveyor. Ask here for a recommendation. A broker should have a list of what other boats like yours have sold for, but I doubt the selling broker is the right one to ask. I would expect to pay less for a boat without instruments and include the fact that you'll have to install them in the price. Maybe make the price you pay subject to the dealer getting you a good price on the gear you want. As for the bottom, you can include a line in the deal that they prepare the bottom for the coming season, but be specific: ask that sand and spray the bottom with seven coats of fuschia Exoti-Coat then wet sand and burnish to 7 million grit, or you'll just get a coat of bucket ends rolled on an hour before launch. Like anything on a boat, it'll just cost more. negotiate hard. There are lots of boats on the market at the moment...though I understand that may change once people in NJ start getting insurance checks. Cheers Andy C&C 40 Peregrine On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:10 PM, David Knecht <_davidaknecht@gmail.com_ (mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com) > wrote: I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+? Are there things I can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave David Knecht 50 Farmstead Rd. Storrs, CT 06268 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album _http://www.cncphotoalbum.com_ (http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/) _CnC-List@cnc-list.com_ (mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com) -- Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Ave Newport, RI USA 02840 _http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/_ (http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/) phone +401 965 5260 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, pretty much everything's negotiable. But the order to do is: negotiate before the survey, then make an offer "subject to survey." Don't use the broker's surveyor. Ask here for a recommendation. A broker should have a list of what other boats like yours have sold for, but I doubt the selling broker is the right one to ask. I would expect to pay less for a boat without instruments and include the fact that you'll have to install them in the price. Maybe make the price you pay subject to the dealer getting you a good price on the gear you want. As for the bottom, you can include a line in the deal that they prepare the bottom for the coming season, but be specific: ask that sand and spray the bottom with seven coats of fuschia Exoti-Coat then wet sand and burnish to 7 million grit, or you'll just get a coat of bucket ends rolled on an hour before launch. Like anything on a boat, it'll just cost more. negotiate hard. There are lots of boats on the market at the moment...though I understand that may change once people in NJ start getting insurance checks. Cheers Andy C&C 40 Peregrine On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:10 PM, David Knecht wrote: > I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in > my sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price > and then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced > with the buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. > Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can > one find out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The > boat is owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I > have the impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move > it. Are there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are > there things I can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, > the boat has GPS, but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be > part of the negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the > ownership cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one > nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready > for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > -- Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Ave Newport, RI USA 02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ phone +401 965 5260 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, Best of luck! One negotiates a price subject to survey and then re-negotiates based on those results. The broker can look up prior sales on soldboats.com and provide a printout. I would factor the cost of electronics in to the price, but they my be able to get you a better labor rate. Joel Sent from my iPad On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:10 PM, David Knecht wrote: I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are there things I can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave David Knecht 50 Farmstead Rd. Storrs, CT 06268 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Boat buying tips
David, Welcome to the list. I would suggest you negotiate a price, then do the survey. If things come up in the survey, you can negotiate down further. As for installation of instruments, I doubt you'll get anywhere with that as the dealer would most likely have to subcontract that work out. For the bottom, you'll want to do that yourself when you're ready to launch. Ask what's on there and know what you can use to paint over it. The 34+ is a well-built boat. I know a few people who have them and they are very happy with the boat's speed and comfort. Good luck. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log Website On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:10 PM, David Knecht wrote: > I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my > sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and > then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the > buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one > negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find > out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is > owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the > impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are > there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are there things I > can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, > but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the > negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership > cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, > whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? > Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave > > David Knecht > 50 Farmstead Rd. > Storrs, CT 06268 > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com > CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Boat buying tips
I am hoping to return to the C&C family this season. I have a 1990 34+ in my sights that I will soon have surveyed etc. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? I am relatively inexperienced with the buying process, so looking for tips/suggestions on how to proceed. Does one negotiate the price and then survey or the other way around? Can one find out what similar boats have sold for over the past few years? The boat is owned by the brokerage as it was taken in trade on a new boat and I have the impression I can negotiate hard on the price as they want to move it. Are there any specific issues to look out for with the 34+?Are there things I can ask them to do as part of the purchase? For instance, the boat has GPS, but lacks wind/speed instruments. Can installing that be part of the negotiation or does one just figure that kind of thing into the ownership cost? They are not a boat yard, but are associated with one nearby. Also, whose responsibility should it be to get the bottom ready for the new season? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks- Dave David Knecht 50 Farmstead Rd. Storrs, CT 06268 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
