Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this? Leave it to those, which are silly enough to use an autoreply for mailing lists? After all, a little bit of education cannot hurt. Jochen -- Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. (Mark Twain) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Simon Kitching wrote: One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from these lists first. When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this? Depends if we have 4 lists or not. I'd prefer two dev and auto, which would be a little easier. Not that I ever unsubscribe Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 24/07/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote: > > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive > > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for > > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much > > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're > > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own > > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev > > discussions as they come through. > > One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly > seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets > their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from > these lists first. > > When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this? > > I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page > where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As > far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this. Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only I'm surprised at how many companies (large ones too) let OOO e-mails outside their company boundaries. These can provide valuable information for social engineering purposes... see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Simon Kitching wrote: On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote: I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own defined groupings while having to still see the general dev discussions as they come through. One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from these lists first. This depends on how the mail server is set up. At my day job the auto-responder only kicks in if the mail is addressed directly to me. If the To: header contains something other than my address, for example the address of a mailing list, it just doesn't send an auto-reply. -- Dennis Lundberg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote: > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev > discussions as they come through. One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from these lists first. When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this? I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this. Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote: > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev > discussions as they come through. One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from these lists first. When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this? I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this. Regards, Simon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/22/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/22/06, Stephen Colebourne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One > for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng > that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'. > > So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen? > > Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-) I'm not tied to multiple lists - so one list is fine by me. I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own defined groupings while having to still see the general dev discussions as they come through. A far more predictable version of the [xxx] convention without the risk that you'd miss the Re: svn commit emails. The reason this occurred to me was that I pondered the 'mad' suggestion of having [EMAIL PROTECTED] and thinking that it might not be as mad as it sounds :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Stephen Colebourne wrote: This proposal has merit, in that it allows the main dev list room to breathe for discussion, which should be its primary purpose. It also has a very clear benefit in mail archive - in fact its really pretty essential for that. Some of the negative respones have focussed around what the needs of committers are, but I'd argue that we should be focussing on the needs of the 'users' - ie those who want to follow commons discussions, maybe chip in occasionaly, but are not interested in contributing/commiting. An excess of what can feel like spam will put some of these people off. Good point! We are not doing this to please the committers, but trying to breathe new life into the community. The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'. Being a fairly new committer here, let me describe how my progress from casual reader of the user list to committer has been: 1. Start using commons components 2. Ask questions on usage and help others where possible = subscribe to users@ 3. Listen in on discussions regarding the general progress and direction of interesting components = subscribe to dev@ 4. Start reporting bugs and follow what new functionality will come in the components that interest me = subscribe to issues@ 5. Look at the actual code changes made to the interesting components, and start to submit code myself = subscribe to commits@ My standpoint is that it will have a positive effect on non-committers if we split the lists. I also think two new lists is a minimum. I would consider adding notifications for gump or other CI systems, see this as an example http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-notifications/ So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen? Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-) Stephen Henri Yandell wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dennis Lundberg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Henri Yandell wrote: On 7/22/06, Brett Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons. That wasn't my feeling - we're not very busy at the moment but generally I thought commons-dev was one of the busier lists at the ASF. Comparing: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jakarta-commons-dev/ and http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-dev/ Maven-dev hit real heights with 4000 emails a month at the end of 2005 - it's now down to 600 or so. An active Commons back in 2003/2004 was hitting 2000, though it's interesting to note we're still heading towards the 2000s whenever we get active (and I don't think we've really got that active yet). Don't forget to add the new lists into the equation: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-commits/ http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-issues/ My thinking is that over the next 6 months we should be doubling the number of active committers - I need to do some svn logs but I suspect there are 5->10 currently and it used to be 10-20. It'd also be interesting to analyse what our numbers would drop to if we split lists. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dennis Lundberg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/22/06, Stephen Colebourne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'. So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen? Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-) I'm not tied to multiple lists - so one list is fine by me. Probably worth asking the mail admins whether it would be commons-commits (to match most others) or commons-auto (because we're overloading the semantics). Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/22/06, Brett Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons. That wasn't my feeling - we're not very busy at the moment but generally I thought commons-dev was one of the busier lists at the ASF. Comparing: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jakarta-commons-dev/ and http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-dev/ Maven-dev hit real heights with 4000 emails a month at the end of 2005 - it's now down to 600 or so. An active Commons back in 2003/2004 was hitting 2000, though it's interesting to note we're still heading towards the 2000s whenever we get active (and I don't think we've really got that active yet). My thinking is that over the next 6 months we should be doubling the number of active committers - I need to do some svn logs but I suspect there are 5->10 currently and it used to be 10-20. It'd also be interesting to analyse what our numbers would drop to if we split lists. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
This proposal has merit, in that it allows the main dev list room to breathe for discussion, which should be its primary purpose. It also has a very clear benefit in mail archive - in fact its really pretty essential for that. Some of the negative respones have focussed around what the needs of committers are, but I'd argue that we should be focussing on the needs of the 'users' - ie those who want to follow commons discussions, maybe chip in occasionaly, but are not interested in contributing/commiting. An excess of what can feel like spam will put some of these people off. The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'. So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen? Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-) Stephen Henri Yandell wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 21/07/2006 2:08 PM, Simon Kitching wrote: Allowing people to subscribe to (mail+jira+commit) for a specific commons component seems to be to me what casual contributors would really need, but we have no easy way to do that without causing major damage to the whole commons community. Yes, that's really the other alternative. But I think they need to be larger, active components or groups of components, otherwise you'll end up with ghost town lists, insufficient oversight and lack of interest in the common infrastructure which is what you are referring to. FWIW, we do this too - maven-scm, maven-continuum, maven-wagon, maven-doxia all have separate dev, user and commits lists (but they all share the issues list). As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would like to hear from them. That's an excellent idea.. Yep, best to listen to them. This is really who the proposal is for, I agree that the committers would want to be on all 3. I don't buy the argument that it is necessary to follow all the jira issues and commits to participate in development, though. Brett, what's the feedback on the split of the Maven list? Why do you think it was a good idea? It was very positive, and many people who weren't committers were keen to see it go further than originally proposed. One of the motivations for me was looking at the graphs on Ken's page to see how many people unsubscribed from the dev@ list when there was a big run of commit or jira mails. That's losing people that might have had something to say if they only had to go through a less annoying amount of mail. We get regular feedback on there from people I've never heard from before. The separation of archives is a big win, especially as things like nabble have become more popular as a way to casually participate in lists. The dev@ list is definitely more active than it used to be, but I don't know how much of that is attributable to the split vs. normal growth (it seems to be on the same upward trend it already was). However, it certainly hasn't hurt. I haven't seen any evidence of jira issues or code getting overlooked. But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons. HTH, Brett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
+1 on both.. Although I would also like to see the wiki notifications moved to the commits list. The only thing that needs to be done to actually make this work, is to actually advertise the mailinglist splitup. I missed the fact at some projects (don't remember which ones though), there was a seperate commit / jira list. So we need to adjust the docs of all projects, the mail2 page and regenerate the site when we do the move. I am in favour of autosubscribing everyone who is currently on dev. Mvgr, Martin Henri Yandell wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
+1 -- Dennis Lundberg Brett Porter wrote: +1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted. - Brett On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Henri Yandell wrote on Friday, July 21, 2006 2:16 AM: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev That made of course sense for Maven. In the special case of commons-dev however, I wonder whether it wouldn't make sense to split out the more active projects instead? Jochen -- Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. (Mark Twain) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Henri Yandell wrote on Friday, July 21, 2006 2:16 AM: > A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different > mailing lists and it seems to be going well. > > So I'd like to suggest: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev +1 (although I am not sure if we really need two lists for auto generated stuff) > I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're > relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted > authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and > fix a spelling mistake. Even this ones I would send to commits or issues. > The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those > lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new > committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: > [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're > missing. Well, I would expect committers to be subscribed to all of them. > Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A > mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to > nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours > to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, > and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less > people. > > One question: > > Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them > unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Subscribe all. Main reason for my vote is not the reduced amount of mail, but the much easier searchability of the archives. I've sometimes already given up to dig a mail, just because the hit list was cluttered with this automated stuff. Since JIRA also has good search capabilities the notifications don't have to stay at [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments. > This is core to what is happening on a project. This is true for someone deeply involved in the project life, but may be overwhelming for someone who only wants to keep an eye on the discussions about future directions and new features. > As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would > like to hear from them. I am just stepping in now. As I really want to contribute and to invest my time in this project, I am interested in the commits and Jira stuff. The fact de dev list is shared among many projects is more an issue to me than the level of messages that are exchanged on the list for a given project. However, I think this choice has been made for good reasons and will not complain about it. I take the lists as they are. This is only a personal opinion, from someone who is both new to the project and wants to get involved. Many other use cases for the lists are possible. Luc - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/20/06, Simon Kitching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would > > like to hear from them. That's an excellent idea.. Yup. James Ring is one of those, so his reply was quite a surprise (for me). Maybe a better email would be: Contributors - we want to give you commit access and get you involved - what can we do to help get you involved and active so we can then say "yes, this person is committed". Apache Directory are experimenting with having committers mentoring new contributors into the project having recognised that they're seeing things start to slow down. Not too sure of that, we're all sitting down and doing this at the end of the day because it's fun. Then again, this isn't much different from the Google Summer of Code concept, except that that's only open to students. My biggest concern is with code direction. Andrew Shirley has done lots of good work with CLI on the issue tracker (and James too), but until we had some kind of direction for CLI I was very hesitant to be nominating someone to become a committer and then having them just be stuck on their own. A later concern is what will happen to commons-dev as we get even more moving. Let's say we double the number of active committers - will commons-dev start to feel cramped again? I'm also concerned with the noise that a release creates. If we want to release often (and not the multiple year releases we have tended towards), can we do that without creating noise that drowns out the code? Maybe having nightly builds is good enough for the release often. Commons libraries are at the heart of projects dependency lists so who wants to have to update all the time. Back to coding or releasing or something :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 20:34 -0700, Martin Cooper wrote: > On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly, > > > > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this > > > > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the > > > > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved. > > > > > > > Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments. > > This is core to what is happening on a project. > > > I agree with Phil. And I don't buy that more people would get involved if > they didn't see the commit messages. How can they be properly involved if > they're not watching what's happening to the code and the issues? I'm also -0 on splitting the list into dev/commit (though open to persuasion). As noted, JIRA comments are as valid as emails for discussing an issue. And I think any contributor to a project (someone who is submitting patches) needs to keep an eye on patches even if not "a committer", to see if their area of interest is being modified and how. Allowing people to subscribe to (mail+jira+commit) for a specific commons component seems to be to me what casual contributors would really need, but we have no easy way to do that without causing major damage to the whole commons community. > > As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would > > like to hear from them. That's an excellent idea.. Brett, what's the feedback on the split of the Maven list? Why do you think it was a good idea? Cheers, Simon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly, > > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this > > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the > > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved. > Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments. This is core to what is happening on a project. I agree with Phil. And I don't buy that more people would get involved if they didn't see the commit messages. How can they be properly involved if they're not watching what's happening to the code and the issues? -- Martin Cooper It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how. > Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get > the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface > like Nabble. > > (I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?) > Probably yet another little list, if we chase this to logical conclusion. One problem that I have with splitting things is that Jira comments *are* discussion, as are commit log messages and responses to these, etc. I don't like the idea of splitting these. As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would like to hear from them. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly, > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved. Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments. This is core to what is happening on a project. It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how. Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface like Nabble. (I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?) Probably yet another little list, if we chase this to logical conclusion. One problem that I have with splitting things is that Jira comments *are* discussion, as are commit log messages and responses to these, etc. I don't like the idea of splitting these. As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would like to hear from them. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly, the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved. It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how. Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface like Nabble. (I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to [EMAIL PROTECTED] While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?) Thanks, -- Wendy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Hi Henri, > -Original Message- > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2006 10:16 AM > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List > Subject: [all] Splitting the mailing list > > > A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different > mailing lists and it seems to be going well. > > So I'd like to suggest: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev -1! I believe the commons-dev mailing list volume is too low to justify segregated mailing lists. Just personally, I like the current arrangements. I also think the JIRA 'noise' isn't a problem. Regards, James - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
+1 Niall On 7/21/06, Brett Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: +1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted. - Brett On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: > A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different > mailing lists and it seems to be going well. > > So I'd like to suggest: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev > > I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're > relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted > authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and > fix a spelling mistake. > > The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those > lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new > committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: > [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're > missing. > > Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A > mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to > nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours > to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, > and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less > people. > > One question: > > Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them > unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. > > Hen > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Apache Maven - http://maven.apache.org/ Better Builds with Maven - http://library.mergere.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would rather that we find a way to reduce the JIRA noise, but only the part of it that really is noise. The real JIRA notifications and commit diffs are as important as the other stuff on this list - certainly as important as this message ;-) Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly, the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved. Especially useful for Commons I think as it should be such an easy project to contribute to (very simple code by and large) and we've had a distinct failure to ease contributors in. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
+1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted. - Brett On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Apache Maven - http://maven.apache.org/ Better Builds with Maven - http://library.mergere.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
I would rather that we find a way to reduce the JIRA noise, but only the part of it that really is noise. The real JIRA notifications and commit diffs are as important as the other stuff on this list - certainly as important as this message ;-) Phil On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[all] Splitting the mailing list
A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different mailing lists and it seems to be going well. So I'd like to suggest: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] - reply-to to commons-dev I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and fix a spelling mistake. The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re: [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're missing. Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors, and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less people. One question: Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
