Re: Heller versus DC
Which would give new meaning to the term "killer feature" and I would be first in line to buy one (after I passed the screening process). -Original Message- From: George Brooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Heller versus DC Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:03:15 +0100 Or maybe future US versions of the Freerunner should include a handgun builtin. solar.george from the UK On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:21:41 -0600 Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Guys, this is really, really off-topic in this forum. Please, the > list traffic is heavy enough with items that are germaine, let's not > get into this branch of politics > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: humor
Agreed...one of my favorites. http://xkcd.com/325/ -Original Message- From: Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: humor Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:28:34 +0200 On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:38:59 +0200, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.xkcd.com/433/ Who needs to tell jokes when you have XKCD? Just post a number, and everyone will have a good laugh. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish list for future Freerunner
My Nokia N95 works fairly well. They don't do too much with it, mainly just adjust the backlighting to conserve a little more battery. To agree with Mickey, just because the hardware can do something (that may seem cool at the time) doesn't mean that it should be done. But on the flip side, not having the hardware being capable of something completely eliminates any possibilities. So, a light (or proximity) sensor could be a good addition to the next hardware rev, but just don't go crazy trying to make use of it. -Original Message- From: Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Wish list for future Freerunner Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:14:29 +0100 On Saturday 12 April 2008 18:46:16 Ron K. Jeffries wrote: > Next significant iteration of Freerunner > should include light sensor. Actually I have yet to see a device where a light sensor does not get in the way and eventually annoying a lot. This seems very hard to get right (both on the older iPAQs and the N8xx it's barely usable). > My understanding > is that's one part of iPhone secret sauce for intelligently > dimming LCD while phone is held up to user's ear. IIRC they're using a proximity sensor rather than a light sensor. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Awesome update both in progress and content! I realize that you are right in the middle of the crossfire and probably get a lot of flack for things that are mostly out of your control. I put in one email yesterday why I think people get frustrated with the lack of hardware updates. Its because they are given so much insight on the software side of things, but comparatively little on the hardware side of things. Combine that with the fact that (to an extent) any work effort they put into the software can't fully be realized until the hardware is completed. So it definitely puts FIC into an interesting/unique spot. They (from a manufacturing standpoint) probably give out more internal info than most companies, but the above scenario makes it "feel" like they are being even more tight lipped. Keep up the good work! -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion , steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700 Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind "closed doors" as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the "golden master" in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable "some days" to "some weeks" in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > Over here we're working as hard > as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely > now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say "working hard to find the bugs". To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
This isn't another negative post about the delays, I promise. I have loosely followed this project since somewhere around the middle of last year. There were delays, they didn't tell/inform us. It was very frustrating because I was in a situation like yours...I really needed a new phone and I wanted to wait it out. My honest suggestion is to not wait, but go out and get a phone that will either make you happy now or just one that can "live with." I'm currently *extremely* happy with my N95! Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. Besides, now that I am not in "need" of a phone I can be more supportive and fell less compelled to complain. Also, having a second phone is going to be a good thing in case you manage to somehow screw up the software. Last thing, I don't want to hear the I can't afford two new phones argument. You are looking at dropping >$400 on a phone...so another ~$25-100 is NOT that much of a difference. -Original Message- From: Shawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Delayed another 6 months is a deal breaker for me. If I can get a Freerunner that is hardware stable, makes phonecalls and does most phone functions in a month or two, I'll be fine, otherwise I'm gonna have to start looking at other devices. My current phone is on it's last leg and it's time to upgrade. - Original Message From: Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:53:22 PM Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? JW wrote: > On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html >> Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version >that's delayed? >> > > Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? > > FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. > Polished software not available til much later > > I guess it comes down to your definition of "slightly". To me "slightly earlier" than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1 or 2 months from now. That would put the gta02 dev release into august. However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling. I'm looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the next few months. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: GSM firmware, 850MHz experiment, GTA02 progress
Depending on the level of complexity, this could be *great* news for me. I don't travel internationally that often (currently, but the frequency could always up in the future) so having quad-band is borderline nice and necessity. But if I could make changes (before/after trips) to "switch" the bands, then I might consider that a workable solution. I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron, so as long as it isn't too complex I'd feel comfortable doing it. I know that they are probably into very finalized versions of the hardware, but it might be worth looking into how much change would be required to ease the "transition" between bands. Example, if it is just a small number of wires that has to be changed, possibly creating a "switch" to toggle between the settings. I, for one, would consider that a more than suitable workaround and almost nullify my "no-quadband" issues. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Community update: GSM firmware, 850MHz experiment, GTA02 progress Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:32:50 -0500 In regards to the 850MHz Issue: It seems that very little effort was required to switch a phone board to 850 for testing. So my question is what exactly is involved. Was it simply switching which pin is attached to the antenna? If it is a relatively simple circuit change and involving only a top (or bottom) layer trace, is it possible to tell us what connections to change to convert an existing unit to 850MHz. Obviously only for the very experienced people. If there is different capacitor, etc required to match the frequency it might be less doable, but details would be nice. once the design has been confirmed. On a side note this is excellent news that the 850 variant may not be far behind GTA02. Mark Mark ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A problem with usb networking
I was wondering why people we using static routes. I have my own dhcp server, so if I want "static" routes, then I just put the configuration into the dhcp server (based on MAC address). It lets you only have to configure one thing and everyone get the same information. Whether or not a dhcp client was part of the "standard" build/image, it will almost be required for GTA02 as *most* wifi networks make use of DHCP. So, I would say that making sure that it works "as expected" will give you a jump start on GTA02 "testing." In addition, whatever the method for configuring network information needs to also play nice with dhcp. All I got, Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: A problem with usb networking Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:07:10 +0100 > Something I haven't investigated -- could the NEO do dhcp? yes - in fact i'm using this to avoid all the hassles with my network .. ipkg install udhcpd should give you what you need .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible
Just came across this discussion http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/e8efe3d7e9927851/04302351954cbc6f#04302351954cbc6f -Original Message- From: William Voorhees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:55:48 -0600 I wouldn't say I'm not concerned, but I'm hopeful. In one of the video's Sergy Brin says that it will be "entirely open". I hope that google's Do No Evil slogan takes hold. -Will On Nov 14, 2007 1:34 PM, Festival.Star <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yeah that is true but Googles saying: > > "Over time, more of the code that makes up Android will be released, but > at this point, we have been concentrating on shipping an SDK that helps > application developers get started. In short: Stay tuned." > > But what does "over time" mean, that can be 2 months but also 2 years. > So at the moment it is definetly NOT open. > > William Voorhees schrieb: > > > upon further inspection it looks like your right, though I am still > > hopeful based upon this entry in the FAQ. > > > > http://code.google.com/android/kb/licensingandoss.html > > > > Assuming that this is true, it only strengthens the case of the Neo > > 1973 and openmoko project. If the 850mhz issue resolved, I'll be > > buying one. The ability to run various linux based platforms on the > > Neo 1973 device is great. Furthermore this offers great opportunities > > for porting the openmoko platform to any of the android based phones > > that should be coming out in the next year. They will already have a > > working kernel, etc. > > > > -Will > > > > On Nov 14, 2007 11:55 AM, Martin Kirchgessner > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> 2007/11/14, William Voorhees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> > >>> that's what I thought, till I found this: > >>> > >>> http://git.android.com/ > >>> > >>> -WIll > >>> > >>> > >> Don't be fooled it's only the kernel sources: they have to publish > >> them, as required by the GPL. What about the libs sources? The VM? > >> > >> Marty > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> OpenMoko community mailing list > >> community@lists.openmoko.org > >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > >> > >> > > > > ___ > > OpenMoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
First, thanks to Michael for giving the update. It is never good to have to be the bearer of bad news. However, this is huge! My probability of purchasing just dropped from 95% to about ~5%. I'm getting ready to move and not knowing what my coverage will be like in those areas is definitely a deal killer. I occasionally do some international travel and also spend time in more "rural" areas so quad-band coverage is an absolute must have (not just something I want for the warm fuzzies). I'm not going to be overly critical, but how does this just slip through the cracks? Although somewhat marginal, quad-band chipsets do cost more than tri-band. It just seems really really weird that ensure you have all of the functionality working would be an absolute no brainer. When putting all of the components together for a *PHONE* you would think that you would test, re-test, check, double-check and then triple check the actual *PHONE* components. My mind is pretty much blown over this one... -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jae Stutzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:37:15 -0600 Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That does look pretty impressive especially considering that hardware acceleration isn't implemented. But now my question is how does e17, OKL4, raster, etc. all fit into the overall OpenMoko equation? -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:45:52 +0100 Hey guys, there's even a video of fancypants showing video on the Neo: http://www.fluffyspider.com/demos/live_videos/flv/fancypants-openmoko-neo1973-video-browser-phone-dialer.html Woo! /Oliver ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openource handwriting recognition
Two separate quotes from the main website "However, some Tablet PCs or PDAs may not have a pen button or any other convenient way to right-click. The alternative gesture to bring up the context menu is the hold-click. Press with the pen without moving for one second and the context menu will show up. If you start drawing ink, you have moved the pen too far." "To insert a space, point the mouse cursor at the insertion hotspot at either the bottom or the top of the dividing line between cells. If you are pointing at the hotspot, arrows will appear at the top and bottom of the dividing line, click to insert a space." So yeah, they do talk about mousing over things, but they also talk about PDA/Tablets as well. Either way, this looks like a great stylus input method, but probably won't work too well for a finger input method. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Brad Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Openource handwriting recognition Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:40:26 -0600 looks like it was developed with an active digitizer... (eg mousing over stuff the insertion hotspot) On 10/30/07, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I believe this merits some very in deep looks: > > http://risujin.org/cellwriter/ > > (via http://www.valdyas.org/fading/index.cgi/2007/10/30#cellwriter) > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Exact release date of GTA02v4?
I'll admit I was one who "grumbled" in the past. My complaint was that there was good flow of information when things were on track (which was appreciated), but as soon as things slipped it was complete and utter silence (hence most of the "angry emails", not the actual slippage). That said, posts like this are exactly what I wanted, and thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I would much prefer hearing SOMETHING (whether it be delays or not). I honestly don't get that hung up on "targeted" release dates that much...I would just like to know about the overall progress (exactly like your email addressed). However, I did "grumble" and still think it is/was bad business practices when they posted release dates, missed them (which is fine) BUT DID NOT SAY ANYTHING. So again, thanks Michael. We (or at least I) very much appreciate this type of information. It doesn't have to come that often, but a quick blurb like this will go a LONG way in reducing the "grumbling" about lack of information. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Evolution - Message Filters
Ok, I wanted to share what I found. It isn't quite as easy/straightforward as that. There is a preliminary step that you have to take for that to work. You have to go to your Edit->Preferences then on the mail accounts menu, select Edit for the mail account you are wanting to have filters enabled on. Then on the Receiving Options tab, you have to check the option "Apply filters to new messages in INBOX on this server" I find that very non-obvious and extremely frustrating since you setup filters but they don't work. Oh well. Maybe that is something we can address in the version that is used in OM. Thanks to all who responded. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Brian Wolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Evolution - Message Filters Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:48:32 -0500 Just select one of the mailing list messages, right click select "Create filter from Mailing list" in the pop up menu. :) On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 09:56 -0500, Jonathon Suggs wrote: > Sorry to send this to the whole list, but I figured at least one person > out there is using Evolution. I just (well, still in the progress) > migrated my work desktop from XP to Ubuntu. I was using Thunderbird for > reading this list and had no problems having it move all OM related > email to specific folders. I've been trying several different > combinations of message filters to get it to recognize the OM mail, but > nothing is working and it is starting to become very frustrating. > > So, for anyone using Evolution (and sorting OM list mail) please let me > know what you are doing. > > -Jonathon > > Side note, I was going to use Thunderbird here on Ubuntu, but I thought > that since Evolution was what was going to be used for the Neo I'd go > ahead and get familiar and hopefully have less troubles syncing the two. > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Evolution - Message Filters
Sorry to send this to the whole list, but I figured at least one person out there is using Evolution. I just (well, still in the progress) migrated my work desktop from XP to Ubuntu. I was using Thunderbird for reading this list and had no problems having it move all OM related email to specific folders. I've been trying several different combinations of message filters to get it to recognize the OM mail, but nothing is working and it is starting to become very frustrating. So, for anyone using Evolution (and sorting OM list mail) please let me know what you are doing. -Jonathon Side note, I was going to use Thunderbird here on Ubuntu, but I thought that since Evolution was what was going to be used for the Neo I'd go ahead and get familiar and hopefully have less troubles syncing the two. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New TOP SECRET OM device??
Rodolphe Ortalo wrote: Hmmm. Does it mean that (all real programmers use vi and all real programmers use perl) or that (a programmer using vi is real and a programmer using perl is real) or that (a programmer not using vi or not using perl is virtual)? Am I ok wrt to speculations at least? (To be real or to be virtual? That is the question...) Rodolphe Actually virtual programmers are all the rage right now, so maybe using perl and/or vi actually *IS* outdated. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New TOP SECRET OM device??
Rodolphe Ortalo wrote: Yes, that's pointless. Let's get back to more productive debates, like the respective merits of using emacs or vi for $your_favorite_task_here, or even maybe python or perl as a default scripting language for the Neo. Ok. Only real programmers use vi. Only real programmers use perl. Anything else and you are just kidding yourself. Well now thats done are you ready to go back to speculating? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bluetooth - Hardware vs Software
Brad Midgley wrote: Johathon Yes it is a bluetooth 2.0+extended data rate adapter (strangely there are a few bt2.0 devices without edr) The available profiles are determined by the software stack. Brad Thanks for the response, but if it had not included edr, then would there be profiles that it could not support? That is more my underlying question. Are profiles determined ONLY by the software stack or do hardware limitations that come into play as well? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Bluetooth - Hardware vs Software
I'll just be honest and say that I am just too lazy to search the tubes for the answer, so here goes. From the bluetooth perspective, are many/any of the profiles dependent upon hardware or can just about any hardware module implement the profiles via software? I thought that Bluetooth 2.0 was supposed to have a higher data transmission rate, so I would think that would require appropriate hardware upgrades, but I could be wrong. That said, it wasn't completely obvious from the wiki whether the Bluetooth module was 2.0 capable or not. I'm not a Bluetooth idiot, I just don't know where the line is drawn between hardware and software. Any clarification would be appreciated. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Tim Newsom wrote: I guess my only comment is that while I don't really care which interface people use on their phones, it seems like the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. In general, I think that all of that should be possible regardless of which interface you use to view/interact with the phone. Gives a little more isolation of the interface from the implementation of where everything is, and it gives people the option to switch at any time without fear that they need to copy / backup-restore their data when switching. Especially with the relevation about being able to run them both at the same time. (Qt has x11 libraries/bindings right?) So you could write qt apps which interact with GTK+ apps through the common data infrastructure. --Tim I 100% agree and that is just about the only constructive thing I've heard said on this (somewhat) pointless thread. I don't know the answer to what he is asking, so if someone does, please speak. At least then we might actually make some type of progress and meaningful discussion. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: other text input concept...
--- wrote: I had made some updates on my idea to a new text input method: http://www.inf.ufsc.br/~guy/text_input.html an append: when the user press the key it could expand (about 40%) that key and contract the others. With that, the user probably will see all chars that he can access by that key, even with his finger on the keyboard... what do you think? Guy I really like that general style of input as it has large keys and can be done fairly easily using one hand. However, the only thing I'm not too thrilled about with this design is the key layout. What was the logic behind where they keys were placed? I would think with just some minor tweaks, it could be very usable. Yeah, and the color scheme does need a little work. Keep up the good work. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).
Lars Hallberg wrote: You mean 8 drag directions + just press+relese... 9 functions per key. Might work. Guess testing on the device is how to find out. But 6x5 keyboard with 8 drag directions give: 6 9 9 9 9 6 6 9 9 9 9 6 4 6 6 6 6 4 A total of 128 'keys'... Good *if* it works :-) As someone who used MessageEase, which is what I think this topic is somewhat related to, my opinion is below. http://www.exideas.com/ME/faq.html Especially since the screen is smaller than most pda's, the actual button sizes need to be even larger to make it easy to hit what you meant without having to concentrate too much. The version that I used had two setups. One had lots of buttons that allowed you to input most any character, the other had only a 4x4 grid (shown in that link). It had just 3x3 that were used for input, with 6 others that allowed for switching modes (uppercase, text/numeric, punctuation). I personally found that *MUCH* easier to use with just my fingers. Considering that just a 3x3 grid allows for 56 combinations (which is quite a lot). If you surround a 3x3 grid with 7 "switches", you can achieve 7*56 or 392 different keys, all from just a 4x4 grid! So not only would the buttons be much larger, but you would also be able to have a much higher key density. 6 9 6 X 6 9 6 X 4 6 4 X X X X X I guess what I am trying to say is that less is more, and that is even more so with buttons competing for screen real estate. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ben Burdette wrote: I'd have to say that for the casual or occasional user, there are significant advantages to a web forum. For me, monitoring an active email list like openmoko in my email client is a fairly sizable undertaking - there are many emails per day to look through. I take time several times a day to look through these, or just mark the folder 'read'. If I were only want to look at the forum once every few weeks, then subscribing to the list would be overkill. On the other hand, in order to participate in the list you need to subscribe. So web-search only users are in effect barred from posting. Even if our casual users wanted 70-80 emails a day for something they only use once in a while, its still a hassle to set up if you don't know about email filtering and etc. Lots of people don't. Compare this to the effort needed to visit slashdot. You register once, and you never need to worry about it again. Visit every day or every 6 months, doesn't matter. The other aspect is that you are putting your real email address out there on the internet for lots of people to look at. This means its an excellent place for spammers to harvest email accounts. With a forum your personal data is more anonymous. Plus there is potential for other social networking style things like user profiles - what users are working on, etc. You are exactly correct. Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Although I consider my self a developer and on somewhat on top of technical stuff, I still would prefer a web forum. I think that *most* non-technical people would also be more comfortable with a forum. I'm really not sure what the motive for NOT wanting a forum is, other than people being set in their ways and unwilling to accommodate people less technically proficient as they are. Now, the title of this thread is "OK, the forum is coming.." because I thought that someone was going to set one up on at least until FIC/OpenMoko created an official one. I think phpBB is the general consensus. I would do it myself, but my servers are located at my house on a cable modem. I have decent uptime, but it isn't as stable as a box in a noc. I don't mind running it, but would prefer a more stable environment. That said, just let me know if you want me to go ahead and set it up. FYI, you can easily import/export to a different instance if we do want/need to change its location. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: VMWare-Image (again)
Eric Heinemann wrote: Ubuntu does not use a root password. While that is somewhat true, I'll explain a little further. Ubuntu makes extensive use of the sudo command to provide root privileges. However, if you have scripts that need to be run as root and/or you just don't want to have to type sudo before a series of commands, then you can become root by doing "sudo su" then setting the root password. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS data from gllin
Ken Yale wrote: Hello, The GLLIN sends NMEA sentences to named pipe "/tmp/nmeaNP". The OMGUI uses this output to plot positions, satellite strength, etc. on various OMGUI test panels. Close your handle to /tmp/nmeaNP to stop the GLLIN (if it was opened with "-np" option). Below is a typical NMEA output sequence from the GTA01 showing the position (RMC,GGA), time (UTC format) (RMC,GGA), satellites used (GSA), satellites tracked (GSV), satellite signal strength (GSV), and satellite position (GSV), type of fix (GSA), and various other details (GGA especially has lots of miscellaneous information). Google "NMEA" and you'll find excellent tutorials about NMEA. (Be sure not to type too fast and end up with "NEMA" which, among other things, is a medical-imaging file exchange standard.) $GPGGA,230648.00,3716.309458,N,12156.790892,W,1,07,0.5,040.0,M,-0.537000 ,M,0.0130515,0130*7C $GPRMC,230648.00,A,3716.309458,N,12156.790892,W,005.9,188.0,060607,,,A*4 1 $GPGSV,2,1,08,23,69,004,37,20,52,174,44,25,49,260,44,13,46,314,30*70 $GPGSV,2,2,08,16,42,064,35,04,14,292,34,01,12,096,30,27,25,250,16*77 $GPGSA,A,3,01,04,13,16,20,23,25,,1.1,0.5,1.0*32 $GPGGA,230649.00,3716.307825,N,12156.791167,W,1,07,0.5,040.0,M,-0.537000 ,M,0.0130515,0130*77 $GPRMC,230649.00,A,3716.307825,N,12156.791167,W,006.1,188.0,060607,,,A*4 1 $GPGSV,2,1,08,23,69,004,35,20,52,174,43,25,49,260,43,13,46,314,28*7B $GPGSV,2,2,08,16,42,064,35,04,14,292,34,01,12,096,28,27,25,250,27*7C $GPGSA,A,3,01,04,13,16,20,23,25,,1.1,0.5,1.0*32 The OpenMoko team will plug the GLLIN into the GPSD (see module omgui/gllin.cpp for sample GLLIN start/stop code to use as the basis for the GPSD). I hear the DBUS link planned for GPS information distribution beyond the GPSD multi-cast is done. TTFN Ken Yale Thanks for the info, I'm looking into the gpds documentation right now. I'm somewhat familiar with DBUS, but will need to get my hands dirty with it before I feel truly comfortable. Any DBUS and/or GPS gurus out there? I know possibly premature, but what would be the "correct" way to get gps information? You can get the raw output like is demonstrated in the wiki http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS Or you could call d-bus methods (ie turnOn, turnOff, curPosition, curElevation, curSpeed, etc). Do we have any idea what that address would be and/or has anyone worked on those interfaces/methods? I would think something like the dbus interface could make for "cleaner" more (re)usable code, plus you could hide some of the underlying complexities in the gpsd setup. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS data from gllin
Krzysztof Kajkowski wrote: Hi! I want to ask phase0 developers: what is the format of gllin output data? I am trying to convert it to google earth using gpsbabel but I have no clue what i could be. Most possible guess is NMEA but the error for my location is about half of the world ;))) so I guess this is not it... best regards cayco This doesn't answer your question, but can someone send a dump of a GPS session? Also, if an application is going to make use of GPS data, what is the preferred method to get the data? Directly from the device or is there some type of multicast protocol that you need to subscribe to? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo 1973 is sold out...
Jay Vaughan wrote: Now thats just going too far. It is not a complete disaster, nor would I consider it a disaster at all: The whole order of initial developer-focused product has been *sold out*. Do you have no idea what that means? Certainly, it is encouraging, and nowhere near disaster. Lucky developers out there right now are getting their code on; just because you aren't (yet) able to do so for physical hardware just means the game is, quite seriously, on. Let me at least attempt to clarify my position. I'm as happy as anyone that the initial batches did get sold out. I was calling the customer support a disaster, not the openmoko project in general. Whether it was the unexpected demand (good thing for everyone involved) or other factors that we were not privy to, THAT is what I am complaining about and I feel that I am somewhat justified. I think you, personally, Jonathon Suggs, are just simply complaining too much, when there is in fact a grand deal of positive activity occurring on the entire Moko project, which stands to make rather nice headway in the opensource hardware realm; a realm which, frankly, has new rules worth applying enthusiastically. OpenMoko is a -startup- for this activity; rapid growth pains most certainly can be disastrous, but in this case are worth bearing by all and sundry interested in the future of portable, pocketable, Linux-based communications devices. I'll accept your opinion that I am complaining too much. Also, I agree 100% that there are good things going on with OpenMoko at the moment. I am planning on contributing to the project as well. Despite my complaining, I am very optimistic about the overall direction that things are headed. For the first batch of Neo's to be sold out is a testament to this. But again, people having been on a waiting list for three weeks and just now being notified that they are going to be delayed for an again undetermined timeframe is not going to make people happy. So yes, I am complaining, not so much because it affects me personally, but because attention does need to be brought to the subject. This *MUST* be dealt with before there is even the first thought of advertising to a wider market. General consumers will *NOT* tolerate this type of customer service. I'm sure that Sean and Co are well aware of what needs to be put in place, but at least some level of attention needs to be brought to even the negative aspects of the project. I probably did sound a little snotty and complaining, to which I apologize, but hopefully some good can be made of it in the long run. So .. If you don't have your OpenMoko yet, well don't kid yourself. You probably came late to the party. This is no reason to start pissing in the punch. I've been following the project since around the beginning of the year. I'm hoping to have my first prototype ready to release here within a week or so, so I'm not trying to piss in the punch. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo 1973 is sold out...
Ian Stirling wrote: We need to know, in decreasing order: Is the GTA02 hardware likely to be able to SHIP to developers in October? Have any changes been made to the published GTA02 specifications other than the new LEDs? How many outstanding orders are there for the GTA01? What is the current GTA01 production volume? Do you not really want to sell the GTA01 at all? I feel like I've been doing a lot of complaining on the list lately, but I have to agree 110%. Everyone is always saying things like "be grateful for the information you've been given" and "this is more 'open' communication than with other companies." While those may be true, this project is different. Sean does communicate directly with the community. At one point we were somewhat kept in the loop, now we get nothing (ok, not nothing). I for one am glad that I did not purchase the GTA01. The entire process (at least from what I have read) has been at best a complete disaster, and it still isn't over or even getting better. FIC may not have ever done B2C, but that still doesn't excuse them from doing *basic* customer support and follow up. Sure, the demand may have been *MUCH* larger than expected and that will inevitably cause delays. However, a completely brain dead simple way of handling that would be to (gasp) communicate with the people who attempted to purchase the device. You have everyones contact information...is it *really* that hard or take THAT much time to keep people in the loop for something they have tried to pay for? The little things do make a difference, and in this case the little things that weren't done really spoke badly as to how FIC will take care of its customers, present and future. Enough complaining about B2C. Now on to overall company direction. I really want this project to succeed and I want a GTA02 device. But why the lack of communication from people? Honestly, I just don't understand how keeping quiet can be considered a positive thing. You don't have to outline company roadmaps, give details of the hardware revisions on a day-by-day basis. All that is wanted is some sort of basic communication about general progress, preferably once a week, but even every other week would probably be well received as well. My only speculation is that when Sean was keeping us in the loop and things slipped that there was some backlash possibly from inside FIC that didn't like that the consumers having so much information about company internals...now he is kept on a somewhat tighter leash and can't really say as much. Considering that is how *most* companies operate, it isn't that far fetched...but then again that means FIC is just like all of the other companies. Except in this case they are pushing Open Standards and Protocols. Sorry for the rant again but just thought it needed to be said. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Google Phone is coming...
Just thought I would share...no real details other than "it is coming" and HTC is building it. http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0242431720070802 http://snapvoip.blogspot.com/2007/08/google-phone-coming-soon.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Hardware Recommendations - Desktop Bluetooth Module
Does anyone have a good recommendation for a Bluetooth module/adapter for the desktop ? Features: Bluetooth 2.0, good support under Ubuntu, and also provide most all of the Bluetooth profiles. I don't mind a dongle, but would think that having an internal card would be less likely to get broken...since a dongle would always be protruding from the case. Thoughts, opinions? What does everyone else use? -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: My mail client sorts and deletes mailing posts for me :) at least if you use a sensible client. AGAIN, you are forgetting who we are targeting with a forum! They will be using Outlook. They will NOT be setting up filters or doing anything other than hitting Send/Receive! The theoretical aspects are that Email is way more organized and standardized than the average html page. We are not talking about "average html pages" We are talking about setting up forum software that will correctly format html pages for the task that they would be providing. You are directly embodying the persona that characterizes the people that give FOSS a bad rep with "average users." You assume them to all be at the same technical level as you. You would just as soon tell them to change their MUA and setup filters as opposed to actually help them with their problems. This type of arrogance will be what (potentially) keeps people from using OpenMoko/FOSS despite its technical merits. I'll try to keep this civil, but PLEASE stop thinking only about yourself. What is being proposed is not to kill the mailing list. What we ARE proposing if you (collective you) would listen is to supplement the mailing list with a forum. WHY ARE YOU RESISTING -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Forums Update...
Kyle Bassett wrote: Hello Everyone, forums.makeopensource.com is online and running. For those of you who are unable to use the forums on a consistent basis, I am actively searching for a solution for integrating the mailing lists, NNTP, and forums; as one community. I am setting up a second beta forum that has the ML/NNTP/forum integration built-in. Please test the functionality and report back. I'm curious to see if this new forum in the solution... www.makeopensource.com/beta/ beta.makeopensource.com (awaiting dns propagation) Thanks! -Kyle Just thinking out loud here, but what email is the forum registered with? Can you submit to this mailing list without joining? If not, then Kyle, you'll have to sign up on the forum mailinglist with an address from makeopensource.com Any other thoughts, suggestions? -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not arrogance or snobbery -- different view of reality. At this point, openmoko *is* a development project. It's emphatically not for Joe and Jane -- it says so on the web site, where you order your phone. There are disclaimers all over the place. It's not even for early adopters -- it's for hackers and developers. Explicitly. It is devoutly to be hoped that someday there will be a need for a forum for Joe and Jane. But as a real concern that's at *least* 6 months away. More realistically, it will be a year before there is a unit that will be robust enough for Joe and Jane. Point well taken. However, we are starting to get some interest from people who fall into that middle ground category. They follow technology (to an extent) but aren't willing/capable to actively develop. So we are suggesting creating a forum to be able to answer their basic questions...ones that they wouldn't register on a mailing list to ask. Mailing lists are great tools for keeping the developers in touch, and so we should not change that (nor has that even been suggested). We are merely trying to establish another method to communicate with potential customers, even if they aren't going to be purchasing for 6-12 months. Sorry for being so aggressive in my posts, but seeing people shoot down the thoughts/ideas just because it doesn't "suit them" is a little arrogant/snobby. Anyway, thanks for bringing the tone down a little and making good solid points. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: To put it differently, there is at least one Linux based gadget that I use, that I'd probably put some time into it (it's my sat receiver ;) ), where I don't participate, because the community organizes around a forum. Well, end effect the community is very static and very small, and slowly dieing :( There you have it folks, unmistakable proof that forums kill communities. I mean if Andreas won't contribute to a forum, then it is most certainly doomed. :) (I kid, I kid) Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. We are not wanting to kill the mailing lists!!! We are wanting to supplement the mailing list with a forum. I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ted Lemon wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. Glad you can read my mind and figure out why I was reluctant to join a mailing list. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with my email being exposed. Honestly, I just really don't like mailing lists...you can give me all the reasons in the world why *YOU* like them, but that will not change my opinion. I would be willing to bet (even quite large amounts, seriously) that I am not alone in this feeling either. Mailing lists are very efficient if you use them correctly. Several people have explained their overall technical benefits. However, even though it is by no means as difficult as compiling a custom kernel, the people are we are eventually going to be targeting will view it that way, and *WILL NOT USE THEM*, therefore rendering them useless as a communications method with that demographic. Until you (the collect you) realize this, there cannot be a meaningful discussion on this topic. The bottom line is that mailing lists are not an acceptable means of communicating with technical novices. AGAIN, we are not talking about discontinuing the development list (that is/should be used by *developers*). We are talking about Joe and Jane Sixpack, people that don't understand the term MUA, people that would be HORRIFIED if they started getting 70-80 email in a day, people who *don't* use email for project collaboration or searching for answers. *THAT* is the reason that we are requesting a forum. Not for me, and certainly not for you (again, the collective you) that look down upon anyone who can't figure out how to setup email filters, conversation threading, and whatever else is required to make mailing lists be the more efficient means of communicating. Get off your technical superiority high horse and realize WHY we are requesting this...for improved communication with those who are less technically savvy. Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance and snobbery are killing me in this discussion if you can't tell... -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jeff Rush wrote: 1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have reached critical mass will dilute the synergy. We are just now starting to come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X). ~1000 users isn't necessarily that small. And I would be willing to bet that there are quite a decent number of people that actually are interested but just don't want to sign up with a mailing list. I'll be honest and say that this is the first mailing list that I have ever participated in despite being very much involved with the technical industry. I was very hesitant to sign up (fear of the unknown, maybe). Anyway, even now that I am getting involved with it, I still do not like this interface. I would much prefer a forum style, and would think that quite a few people (non-techies) would be of the same opinion. 2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. Agreed. But I don't think that is a very valid point. What percentage of the communication of this list comes from actual FIC employees, pretty low. So, just like it is now, the community would provide the bulk of the answers. 3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here. In fact no one can stop it. Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle of open source, in that if you build it will they come. If so, you were right. If not, you were wrong. A very objective approach. Again, you are correct. There are plenty of examples where the dominant discussions of products/services/whatever comes from a non-official source. So, if someone wants to put this together, then I think that would be a great thing to do. However, having all of the information be in a single location would provide a much better unified experience for the users. And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite likely divergent) visions. Those who (1) produce results that (2) some significant portion of the community approve of will have their work integrated into the core as required/optional packages. And some fraction of those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution. And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at "the power user" and "the gaming user" and "the multimedia user". Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various teams that form. And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of this device any better than we at this point. Not a planned economy but a chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the free/opensource tradition of "running code" and "rough concensus". Scary sure, but also refreshing and very exciting. -Jeff I think its healthy to discuss both pros and cons of the ideas, so feel free to rebuttal my comments. However, I am of the opinion that a forum would do a greater benefit than harm. Feel free to disagree, but that is just my take in this situation. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jonathon Suggs wrote: IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without "spamming the list". However, IRC is not an option for those less-technical. Basically, if they can't get the information they are looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will NOT find what they are looking for... IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. I will again apologize for the social interaction comment. It did not come across as I meant it (especially after re-reading my own post). But the fact remains that we must be conscious of the less technical users. I personally do not feel that mailing lists and IRC are sufficient to provide a broader audience with the information that they will be looking for. If you think that the spamming of the lists, and improper "netiquette" is bad now, just wait till the userbase is more diluted (meant in a positive way) with non-technical people. Will simply having a forum "solve" the problem...obviously no. However, it will be a LOT more user friendly, and that in itself could be a deal breaker for some. Sorry if I offended, Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Andy Powell wrote: On Friday 20 July 2007 17:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote: IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. At what point did I actually say *anything* against forums? Please, show me. A question was asked and I made a suggestion - just because you don't like it doesn't mean others weren't aware of it as an option or whatever. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. Wait, did you just insult everyone who uses irc / mailing lists. Good move. You just failed 'social interaction 101' Andy Ok, before this turns into an argument, I was not referring directly to you. Very sorry for not stating that explicitly. As far as insulting people, I do not mean to offend. However, you can't honestly think that the general consensus of the FOSS "help groups" is positive, do you? There is a time and a place for RTFM to be a legit response, but 9 times out of 10, it is someone asking a simple question that they don't know the answer to, and someone doesn't take the extra few seconds to give a link or reference instead of belittling them. So my point is to keep the mailing list technical, but offer forums for those who are less-technical and are inevitably going to ask "stupid" questions. -Jonathon P.S. I did not fail, social interaction 101. But you are certainly up for the jumps to conclusions award for 2007 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Andy Powell wrote: On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. -Steven Those were never specified as requirements at all. What they asked for was somewhere they could ask questions without "spamming the list" - irc is perfect for those little questions. IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without "spamming the list". However, IRC is not an option for those less-technical. Basically, if they can't get the information they are looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will NOT find what they are looking for... IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Mathew Davis wrote: Sorry for writing so much but I really feel strongly that a forum will only be a positive thing. The more information we can get out to general users and the more help we can offer them the better. I personally thing the forums and the mailing list will be two seperate tools. I don't think there will be that much overlap. By that I mean people who use the mailing list now will probably want to stick to the mailing list. But I also see a lot of things that really don't need to be on the mailing list. General topics about equipment to go with the neo, new way's they will use the neo, and just general questions about network providers and plans don't need to go here. Let them ask those question in the forums. I think the forums would be a good place for people to ask general questions get general answers and just enjoy discussing a wide range of things. I think the mailing list could benifit a great deal from a forum. Just my $0.02. I think Matthew's post was 100% correct. People need to get off their high horse and realize that just because the mailing list and wiki works for them, doesn't mean that is the best tool for everyone. A forum is a great tool, that allows people to follow threads based on what interests them instead of having to receive ALL of the messages. Not providing one would be a great disservice to a lot of the people that (possibly) will be purchasing the "Mass Marketed" phones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Adam Krikstone wrote: IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information fast. However, as more users, especially ones with little to no experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be inundated with drivel. There is only ~1000 people on this list and look at simple problems with a glitch with gmail. I get 90+ messages about "is gmail broken," "gmail isn't working," "I think it is gmail," etc. Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass market? I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and IRC/lists. The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and consumers can stay in the forums. From the consumers standpoint, I think that a forum is mandatory. If the plan is really to mass market this then IRC and/or mailinglists are *NOT* no matter how useful/easy/better *YOU* think they are going to work. If someone can't get to information easily with their web browser, and do something that they are familiar with (ie. forums are a VERY common tool), then they will NOT be able to get the help that they need and will be disappointed. Mass marketing a device *IS* different from developing a device, not matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise. You might have to succumb to using (or at least allowing) what YOU feel is an inferior tool if it will make things easier for the other less technical users/consumers out there. Besides, do you really want to have to answer the same questions over and over on the mailing list? Bottom line, keep an open mind. Realize that just because something works for you doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. And trust me when I say that IRC and mailinglists will not work for everyone. -Jonathon PS, I wasn't targeting my rant at you Adam. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
Giles Jones wrote: If you minimise the time using the stylus then you eliminate a huge section of the public who don't want to use a stylus (yes I know the Nintendo DS has one and has sold 40 million ;)). I would say the main reason for using the stylus is drawing lines. Using fingers to touch is less precise, but you could have an interface that zooms, touch and hold an area to zoom that area, you can then touch more accurately the item you want. Would be possible with the additional 3D hardware in the consumer hardware. *Most* of the application should be completely navigable fingers only, because people are much more likely (at least I know I am) to be on the go while using their phone. Whereas when people are playing a game (Nintendo DS), they would be more likely to be stationary and willing to take the time to take out and use the stylus. I think it takes a little bit of extra time and effort to design for a mobile (finger only) application. However, less IS more. Fewer but larger (and intuitive) buttons. I don't mind going through a couple of screens if it is clear what I am doing. For the address book example. I would prefer to have a list that showed only a few names with a large area for each. When you clicked the name, it would pop-up (again large buttons) the actions that you could take (Dial, SMS, Email, Edit/Other). Extra clicks aren't always bad if they are well defined and easy to use even at a glance. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?
Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: On 7/10/07, Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm very excited about the Neo1973 and OpenMoko, but I can't justify buying one now and a whole new one in October. I've decided to wait because the WiFi is important enough to me. However, if there will be a board-only option in October that would make a Phase I Neo + a Phase II board not *too* much more expensive than just a Phase II Neo, then I'd buy one right now! Any (semi-)official word on availability and pricing of a Phase II board-only option would be much appreciated. I am in the same position as you. As I recall, Sean wrote that it could be done when they had more band width but he didn't promise anything. I'll put out a me too as well. Don't know if it will make a difference or not but letting them know there is at least a little interest might make their decision easier (or harder depending on how you look at it). -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Well, if that is correct, I think I'll win an award for biggest foot in mouth. Still, 492 + (500 * (1 - defect%)) isn't a very large number. I guess only time will tell. mathew davis wrote: That is very exciting news. I look forward to more from Sean sortly. How did you find that article? On 6/15/07, Thomas Gstädtner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Some (pretty good) news: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/15/#20070615-gta01-factory-trip 2007/6/15, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thursday 14 June 2007 23:45:29 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > > Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that > you > > have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are > > not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the > GTA-02's. > > Which assuming GTA-02 doesn't take much longer, would be a bad thing > why? > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day?
Sorry, for jumping to assumptions (that wasn't my intent). But if we are only going by "what we know" then I would have ordered my GTA-01 about 3 months ago...oh wait. There are so little facts (from official sources) that we have no idea what is going on. I was basing my statement on the speculation that has been running rampant through the message boards that the 01's are not going to be mass produced since they are under powered and don't have features that some (several) people have called "deal breakers". Pretty much as far as I'm concerned the GTA-01 *is* vaporware. Considering how much improved the (again speculated) GTA-02's will be outside of the few that "just can't wait" I don't see it being a cost effective platform for FIC to mass produce, considering the low purchase numbers. So yeah, you can call me on a GTA-01 (does that even work yet) or even take pictures of one dissected beside a copy of todays New York Times, but unless one is shipped to me free, I doubt that I will ever touch (or even see) one. - The Speculator Mikko Rauhala wrote: to, 2007-06-14 kello 16:45 -0500, Jonathon Suggs kirjoitti: Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that you have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the GTA-02's. There is pretty much no reason to assume this, so you're just pulling it out of a hat. Not a bad place to pull out guesses, but as far as "as far as we know" _really_ goes, GTA-01s will be sold, because that was the plan, we've heard nothing to contradict the plan, and they "to the best of our knowledge" already have a bunch of them waiting to be ready to be sold. Upgrading the hardware for mass market was also planned for a long while, so that they have GTA-02 plans and (apparently) even engineering samples is nothing to be surprised about at this point. In short, assuming that plans wrt. selling GTA-01 have changed somehow due to the delays is totally unwarranted. You're not qualified to jump to assumptions here. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that you have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the GTA-02's. Ole Tange wrote: I understand your concern. I have at the moment 2 Neo1973 pre-production handsets in my hand. So if this is vaporware they are *really* going the extra mile to make it look convincing. Is there anything I can do to put your mind at ease? Will photos of opening it help, so you can see it really is not just a bunch of plastic? /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
First, the mailing list is to be used for ideas and communication. You are absolutely correct that FIC will have to make the final decisions about what is and isn't included. However, suggesting that people shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. FIC will hopefully use some of the ideas (and mailing list reaction to those ideas) as a mini focus group to determine what features users will really want/use. There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. Overall, I thought your post was full of fluff (and somewhat out of left field). On the other hand I was someone who posted my disappointment with the amount of communication that has been given back to us lately. Do they have to keep us in the loop? Absolutely not, most companies aren't even near this open about future products. However, my frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us "soon." I don't think that is very professional. I was going to put my disclaimer about how I am 100% for FIC and OpenMoko, but its on my original post so don't think that I am trying to bash Sean and the gang. I'm just disappointed at how the last three months have progressed. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarification Rant
I understand being careful with what you say, but even something like "We've built X devices with a defect ratio of Y. We want that ration to be Z before we push the production line full steam ahead" would be promising. That is unless X=0 Y=100 and Z is "anything greater than zero", THEN we'd be a little disappointed. Just a quick blurb here and there go a long way, but there hasn't even been that. Also there is all of this talk about GTA-02 and how great and awesome it is going to be...but we don't even have GTA-01 out and available??? All I'm saying is that unless there is nothing positive to say, then something is better than nothing (and we used to get something a while back). So again, I apologize for negativity, but I'm finding it really hard to "keep the faith" and...keep waiting. Mikko Rauhala wrote: pe, 2007-06-08 kello 12:05 -0400, Alan Ide kirjoitti: In the first few months of development there was a great deal of communication, but it seems to have dwindled which makes me nervous to be honest. I'm sure the team is also quite honestly nervous to start talking expected shipping dates again after many "false alarms". ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarification Rant
Well since this was supposed to be available back in March, there was no immediate need. Now the pressure (for me) is starting to build. So it is more of a question of I've been waiting for ~3 months now and there is still no idea of when it is going to actually become available. Yes, I could go out and buy a cheap phone today. But then the Neo could be out tomorrow and I would have wasted my money. But its not even a money issue for me. Its a lack of communication issue. The original date was March. Sean clearly explained why they had to push back the date, but only said that new devices would be out "soon." Then there was another production run and we all thought that THAT was going to be when they were available...but there were issues and we got bumped back to "soon" again. LCD shortages, bad production runs, whats next? Are they are going to scrap the GTA-01's in favor of ramping up production lines for the GTA-02 (since that will possibly be the mass-market hardware) but at a few months delay? So while I'm complaining, I'm also appreciative of the information that has been passed down to us. However, that doesn't erase the fact that they set a date and missed it only to be followed up with a "soon" response. It would be different if they had just said that it would be available in 2007, but to set an exact date then not come through? Then not even give a follow up date...it just seems a little "off" to me. So I know that I'm sounding really down on Sean and the bunch and that isn't my sentiment. I'm excited about what the platform has the potential to do. But its just deflating to see it "failing" at such an early point in the development cycle...I guess my optimism can only last so long. I guess what I'm getting at is if they can't get something out the door now (when it is arguably the most important time for the platform) then what is the future going to be like? I'm going to have to see some MAJOR progress to get my hopes back up to where they were when I first heard about and started following the project. Luit van Drongelen wrote: Well, if you can't live without a mobile phone until the Neo with WiFi comes available, why not buy a temporary 25 buck phone? That's what I'm doing now... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Publicity
You asked for it and you got it... Here is a link to a frontpage slashdot article. http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/1327238 It links directly to this page http://www.hothardware.com/image_popup.aspx?image=big_fic2.jpg&articleid=979&t=a Just thought that I would share. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Clarification
I'll be short and concise. 1) Do we have a time frame for when the GTA-01 will be available? 2) What are the details GTA-02? a) Is GTA-02 the version with WiFi, accelerometers, upgraded CPU, etc? 3) What hardware will be used for the official September launch? 4) What (if any) incentive will be given for people to purchase the upgraded hardware come September (whatever it will be)? There has been a LOT of speculation and rumors but really nothing concrete, so please ONLY respond if you have something factual. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Clarification Rant
Again, please only respond to my "Clarification" email if you have something FACTUAL. This is my rant email, so if you are just anxious like me then respond to this. I've been following the project for quite some time now and was anxiously awaiting being able to purchase the phone in March (when it was originally scheduled to be available for developers), but that date came and passed and at the time I was ok with the setbacks. However, almost three months have passed and there is still no hardware available for me. Now to top it all off there has been talk of a hardware revision that will include some really good upgrades (that I would normally just wait for). However, my phone is on the skids and I am going to need to make a purchase soon. This is by no means a threat or whatever, but I'm seriously considering jumping ship on the project because I don't like waiting for something that I have no idea will ever come to fruition. There are plenty of phones that I could have now that I would be perfectly content with and every day that my current phone lets me down just makes it harder to...keep waiting. Before someone says "that's just the way it is with hardware projects" can continue playing the waiting game, but you may have to do it without me. I guess the point of this is to say that I am 100% behind OpenMoko, and I wish you the best but considering the circumstances I may have to either catch you in September (or later). I really need some details if I am going to be able to delay purchasing any longer. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: tomtom on the Neo1973
Yes, but if I am relying on my device to be able to get from point A to point B then I would MUCH rather have it be able to give me an accurate map and directions. Its almost a chicken and egg problem. TomTom only sells/ports to high volume platforms. Platforms need TomTom (not specifically, just in general) to be mass marketable. I fully plan on supporting OpenStreetMap (although the US coverage is terrible), but it is NOT ready for use outside of enthusiasts and certainly NOT ready to be a mass marketable option. Ian Darwin wrote: And besides, wouldn't you rather have an open source program drawing your maps? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: information efficient text enty using dasher
I did the same thing. I had played with it in the past using the browser applet and it really didn't do it much justice. I put it on my pda and (after some training) and you were inputting common words, then it wasn't that bad, but still not a super intuitive method for input, but may be a good option since we don't have a hw keyboard. My favorite input method is still the finger splash concept (needs some tweaking to the concept though) http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ Thomas Gstädtner wrote: Btw: I tried dasher for some minutes and its a bit hard at the beginning. After 5-10 mins of training it works very well! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Tactile Feedback
I had mentioned this before, but it didn't get much conversation since it was deep within a thread. Anyway, since there are no hardware buttons for input, could we not use the vibrator to give a quick pulse so that you still have some feedback as to when a button is pressed? It might go a long way in making hardware keyboard less entry more acceptable. http://www.time4.com/time4/microsites/popsci/howitworks/cellphone_motor.html Any thoughts? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded
Don't know if people saw this or not, but Ubuntu just announced that they will be working on mobile and embedded distros. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-May/000289.html I'm not sure what all their goals are, and how they align with what OpenMoko is doing, but if it was possible to join efforts with such a large organization/project could really help out with the overall development/support. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Audio Jack 2.5 mm
I don't mind about 3.5 or 2.5mm, but we could start a vote. ;-) Or a flame war 8-) Carlo Umm, I don't think we can just vote and have the hardware magically change. It takes quite a bit of time (and necessary hardware) to change the design. So unless this is a "vote" for future hardware revs, then I'm not expecting this to change anything for phase1-2 devices. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 0K Re: OpenMoko light web server
I wonder if there would be an advantage in embedding the server in the browser or vise versa. Then the whole issue of polling localhost would be moot. Alex Something else to consider (again) is that we are talking about an embedded device. So the javascript implementation/engine may or may not be as robust as a desktop equivalent. What browser and/or webserver are we talking about having on the device? We *probably* aren't talking about Firefox and Apache (or dare I say IE and IIS)...which is *probably* what most people are used to developing with. So just because we are talking about using HTML and browsers as a common platform, doesn't mean that it is going to be exactly the same. Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but just giving a little reality check. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Blacklist/whitelists
François CHAVANT wrote:
I did this kind of test several times. I'm afraid you are wrong...
You will first get a receipt explaining that the message is "waiting" then,
when the phone you sent the message to is turned on, you will get another receipt ("delivered" status).
Well, I guess you learn something new every day. I'm sure people will
come up with plenty of reasons why this is "bad" and how it could be
used against them and how it invades their privacy. I'm not going to
try to say that you are wrong. But it really doesn't bother me and I
don't care one way or another.
What I will say is this. We are trying to more or less write a
completely new mobile phone platform. I'm all for doing things the
"right way" and challenging current implementation to find a better
way. But we've got to pick and choose what battles we want to fight.
We are all going to have different opinions and priorities, so overall
prioritization (is that a word) of development isn't going to make
everyone happy. Since pretty much every GSM phone already behaves this
way and the messages are controlled by the network I'd much rather spend
development time in ways other than to circumvent this "problem."
Just my $.02
-Jonathon
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Re: Blacklist/whitelists
Tim Newsom wrote: That seems weird... Even in email you can turn off read receipts... It seems like an invasion of sort (though a minor one) to not allow disabling of delivery reports for the receiving party. If the sending party can enable it and the receivers phone automatically responds, then you can always know when someones phone is turned on/available. Does the sms message system work while the phone is in call mode? Does that require multiplex code also like the gprs while on a call does? If it doesn't work while calling, you can always find out when someone is done talking on the phone / is available to talk (assuming they are at the phone) by sending an sms with delivery report first... Right? Seems like there should be some kind of control message that could be sent over the serial port via 'AT' commands which would enable and disable this. --Tim Ok, I'll be honest that I have no proof that this is how it actually works, but I don't think it works the way you are saying it does. Again, not 100% positive, but the "receipt" that you receive is only a message that it has been successfully transfered to the carrier. The carrier will then try to push the SMS to the recipient whenever they become available. So there are two discreet actions. 1) Transfer from sender to carrier 2) Transfer from carrier to destination. Rather than get all worried about big brother, just do a simple test. Turn off a phone and send a text message to it. See if you get a receipt. If you do, then I'm right. If you don't get a receipt until the phone you sent a text message to is turned back on THEN commence the meetings of the tin foil hat club. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Choice of scripting langage: towards Web2.0?
Andrew Turner wrote: For a dynamic scripting language that would be best served to consume web resources and already tie into a big development community there are two primary choices: Python and Ruby. Python has had incredible support and impact on Nokia mobiles with Py60 (see Nokia's Py60 extensions to device access: http://wiki.opensource.nokia.com/projects/PyS60_extensions), and Maemo (N800) Python/Hildon bindings for building 'native' applications. Ruby has a growing community, but hasn't yet gotten good support on mobile devices. There are some potential projects for building Ruby bindings on Maemo that will be very useful. So could look at it either that Ruby doesn't have a big mobile community contingent so why bother, or that the community really *wants* a Ruby mobile so would jump on the chance. Both languages have excellent networking libraries/frameworks, so this really isn't a concern. Really, both languages could be supported in tandem and in fact build on one another's work/efforts. And you wouldn't really be dividing effort since the two communities are both strong in their own right, and so would support their framework. Andrew Out of those two, I vote Python. The only reasons are that I "feel" as though Python has better supporting libraries (and community) and I also prefer its syntax. That said, I still think we should consider perl. People say that it is losing support, but I "feel" as though that is propaganda from the other languages. I don't think it is even a close comparison when you look at the number of supporting libraries compared to just about any other language. However, I do feel perl is at a crossroads. It isn't the "cool" language anymore (python and ruby currently take that crown). So you have a lot of older gurus that could do just about anything with it, but who may not be willing to learn a new language. Then you have new developers that are just learning the "in" languages (ie python and ruby). So you kinda have a clash of cultures. Me, I'm still pretty young but learned perl straight out of college and I love it as it is just so powerful and there are libraries to do just about anything you can imagine. All that to say, lets at least consider putting perl back into the conversation. I'm not going to be disappointed or upset with just about any decision, but I wanted to throw this out before it was too late. I'm not too old to learn a new language ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: tomtom on the Neo1973
Andrew Turner wrote: Caching googlemaps tiles, and not through their client, is a violation of their Terms of Service. Same for all the other providers. Here's an interesting question. What if you constantly logged your position (while driving). Then when you got back home, you could upload all of your data back to your desktop. Would it be legal to have a script analyze that data, and make "suggestions" from public sources (ie google maps, mapquest, etc) as to what roads you traveled. Once you verified that information it could automatically upload back into OpenStreetMaps (OSM)? Basically just reducing some of the time/effort required to upload information into OSM. Better description: the script would break down each segment of your trip (like a turn by turn breakdown) and give a list of possible street names. You pick the best one (or write in the correct one) for each segment, then click finish and it handles the formatting of the data and the uploading. I'm not against paying money for tomtom software. But if I could just make my normal usage patterns translate into more information being uploaded into OSM, then it could eventually help make it a viable alternative (which right now it is not). Bottom line, I'd be willing to contribute a marginal amount of effort, but not much more than that...and I'd be willing to bet that there are many others that would do a little here and a little there but who wouldn't do it if it was difficult/time consuming. FYI, I have no idea how the OSM upload process works. So if it IS really easy, then nevermind. If it isn't easy. Does this sound like a good idea (and is it legal)? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Adapter for MicroSD Card
Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: My Neo came with such adapter. Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Adapter for MicroSD Card
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: I dont know in general, but all Sandisk microsd cards I've seen have been shipped with microSD to SD adapters. I know that when you purchase a microSD card it will come with an adapter, but doesn't the Neo come with an included microSD card? If so, does the Neo also come with a microSD adapter? That is my question... I'm probably going to purchase a new/bigger microSD card, but just wanted to know in case that purchase doesn't come till later... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Adapter for MicroSD Card
Will there be a standard SD card adapter for reading/writing to the included microSD card from a PC? I'm getting ready to purchase a card reader and wanted to know if I also needed to purchase an adapter. If so, were can you buy just the adapters? Thanks, Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko - SoC--- is there a mentor?
> please fell free to comment... I've only loosely followed this conversation, so please forgive any oversights or re-hashes. However I did notice two things 1) Google Summer of Code 2) Finger Splash application So, here is my input. Google wants *high quality* projects that will hopefully have far reaching benefits. So, instead of bickering over minor details that are hard to come to a deterministic conclusion via email. Why not write the proposal for something along the lines of "advanced input system for mobile devices." Part of the proposal could be to do some research on the most common letter sequences and incorporate that into the design. Think different languages and a pluggable expandable architecture. Think possibly shortcuts to common words. Think predictive text. THINK! Instead of trying to hit the nail on the head before you even get your hands dirty, why not take all of the ideas and develop prototypes, then see how they stack up in the real world with real people (ie different thumb sizes). Bottom line, think BIG. Make this project something that Google will notice. Make it something so that text input on a mobile device (an area that is HUGELY lacking) takes a HUGE step forward. Having something like that would bring great publicity to the OpenMoko platoform. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko - SoC--- is there a mentor?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Jon Phillips wrote: Heya Mickey, on the official openmoko side, how many students is openmoko shooting for and how many qualified mentors are there? Not that I have an official in at google, I'm just curious? Right now we are 4 mentors and we aim for 8 projects, provided a) we get so many slots assigned by google and b) if there are enough convincing applications. Cheers, Just curious, but what are the qualification for being a mentor? Are they going to be official FIC/OpenMoko employees or phase-0 devs or whoever volunteers? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Brad Pitcher wrote: The reason we can't do that is because that's proprietary flash built into opera-mini. We don't want either of those in OpenMoko. -Brad On 3/22/07, Edwin Lock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have flash on my nokia 770, that works fine and its an ARM9 if I'm correct? So why not use the implementation that nokia has? It works just fine for me.. Greetings, Edwin Lock When you say "we don't want..." you really mean YOU don't want... I'm all for using open source software (obviously since I am on the maillist and going to get the Neo). But I'm not going to automatically preclude software just because it isn't open. Opera is a great browser. You are not being forced to use it. But if others want to, don't intentionally disallow it. Using only open software is a GOAL, not a REQUIREMENT. Please learn the difference between the two. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: ...plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness information. This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones more often would be able to tune it. First, I'm not a SMS user (I use email.), so you can take this comment for whatever its worth. This is just a very general statement, but I personally think that designing features that will only work with other OpenMoko phones is a bad idea. Yes, there are some ideas that will probably only work between similar/identical devices, but they are probably going to be very specific and not receive as much overall development time. My challenge is just to think bigger. Think how this could be incorporated to work with *any* phone. Then you can have a much larger group of people to brainstorm, test, and bugfix. We have enough protocols and standards to support. Creating yet another one isn't really going to help that much. Also, I don't know anyone else that is planning on getting a OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point. I know you've got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the best of ideas. Sorry if I completely missed the point. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Proposal: Personal Data Encryption (maybe SoC?)
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 22:57 +0100, Marcel de Jong wrote: > >From a user's standpoint: > I do not think I'd like to enter a passphrase or any other measures > just to open up my contacts list (which is after all a piece of > personal data). Also for opening my calendar and such actions on the > device, I'd prefer to have no passphrase. I think Marcel is probably stating what *most* people are going to want as well. Having the ability to encrypt data is a priority, but not having to use it should be a higher priority. One of the biggest mantra's I hear coming from the FOSS camp is "choice" and so keeping with the whole practice what you preach ideal, I think the level of encryption should be a user configurable preference. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: "Can OpenMoko Make Coffee?" - SoC Project Proposal
Ben Burdette wrote: I think that the Neo1973 is both a phone and a portable handheld device. Using it as a remote control is one of the things I've personally been interested in this whole thing for. I'd like to think of the OpenMoko device as an extension of myself into the world of electronic devices. My own interface with the world ... until such time as we can get wetware to do brain-computer interfaces, ;). -- Me too. I want to use the moko to control a media center PC that is connected to my stereo, for queuing up audio files and etc. My PC uses a video projector for the monitor and turning on the projector is too much trouble just for queuing up audio. Leaving the projector on uses up the bulb life too. I wonder if one of the linux based media center apps like mythTV would work for this? A custom remote control app for the moko would be best, but a web browser interface would be fine too. MythTV can be adapted to just about anything that you can think of. I'll be the first to say that it is more difficult to get setup initially (compared to a Windows Media Center), but once you've got it up and running then you've just begun to scratch the surface of what all it can do. MythTV does have a web-interface. Depending on what all you are wanting to do, it is possible that what you are wanting is already available, and the Neo's built-in browser could probably handle all of the controls. If not, then both are open-sourced and you could throw something together to fit your needs. Hope that helps, Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Proposal: Personal Data Encryption (maybe SoC?)
Tobias Gruetzmacher wrote: Hi, Am Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:28:28 +0100 schrieb Sven Neuhaus: With regards to encryption - it'd be great if microSD cards can contain dm-crypt'ed partitions. It's probably rather trivial to add this. Partitions are a major usability nightmare IMHO. That is the reason my proposal focused on encfs/ecryptfs, which both are "layered" encryption "file systems". This removes the requirement to set a fixed size for the encrypted space and makes it easy to use standard tools to backup the encrypted data. Greetings, Tobi Just wanted to throw my $.02 into the mix. I think the most important aspect of this is ease of use...KISS. Some of the ideas floating around are over the top. It might give you warm fuzzies to have some "super cool" encryption scheme, but it will be completely pointless if you make it so difficult to use that (normal) people don't use it. There is a big difference between what is needed for keeping nuclear launch codes and your shopping list secure. Since it is much more likely that you will be storing your shopping list rather than top-secret documents, lets focus on encryption schemes that are more target for that use. Also, *most* times that a phone is lost/stolen people are just going to want to wipe it then sell on eBay, not "hook up a debug board and do a memory dump." Seriously, where are you at that crooks are THAT tech savvy??? Please let me know so I can stay far far away. Now to contribute something productive, rather than just complain on the list. Here are two ideas that if used together be simple and effective. 1) I do like the gesture based approach as that is something that can be easily input using one hand (remember, KISS). However, that may not go over as well for a non-phone interface. So, having an intermediate layer that transform "gestures" to a key-phrase would be a great idea. Then you can have a preference to either input your password/key-phrase directly OR you can launch the gesture analyzer and that will handle the inputting of your password/key-phrase. 2) The sudo style of access could also be useful. Whenever "private" data (still not sure the best/most user friendly approach to determining what is and isn't) is accessed, you are required to put in a password (via method above) and it will last for a pre-determined amount of time. Just the combination of those two ideas would probably suffice for +90% of users needs. Then, if someone was actually carrying nuclear launch codes, then a secondary more robust implementation could either replace or supplement. But your grandmother would still be able to (hopefully) figure out that scheme. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea: up-to-date business card
Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: Yes... if you have a Blackberry, Treo or HTC phone, run Windows and don't mind keeping your data on Plaxo's servers, Plaxo is indeed a good solution. Still... I'm fairly certain that most GSM phones can't make the data call to the Plaxo servers _while_ they are on a voice call with someone else. The "vCard bursting" concept moves data directly from one phone to another without third party involvement. And it does is as part of the "session" created when you're talking with someone else. i.e. - you don't have to hang up the phone to receive burst vCards. Couple of thoughts. First, this is an open platform for you to create whatever you want. So go ahead and knock yourself out making this (actually not mean to be as sarcastic as it sounds). Second, this is an open platform so you can either port the Blackberry, Treo, WinMo app to OpenMoko. I don't use Plaxo, but I know people who do and like it (thought/thinking about trying it). For ideas/apps that are a closed loop between you and your data feel free to come up with brand new protocols for the communication. However, don't expect it to have wide adoption. Even if OpenMoko takes off, it isn't going to become prevalent overnight. So to have the ability to interoperate with Blackberrys, Tres, WinMo PPCs (which make up a decent percentage of the [smart]phone population) you are going to have to be able to speak a common language. vCards are pretty standard, so the idea does have some merit (not that my blessing is a requirement). But unless most people are able to support "vCard Bursting" then you target audience is only as large as the OpenMoko install base. I for one am not really interested in using a protocol with such a limited user base, although it is an interesting concept. Plaxo does what it does well. I *somewhat* understand your not wanting your personal data to be stored on someone elses servers, but creating new protocols for data transmission is probably not the best way to go about obtaining privacy/whatever. This isn't meant to be a derogatory post, but I would prefer to be able to communicate with a broad range of people running a broad range of devices. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: Thanks Harald, I'm out, I think I speak for us all when I say, "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya". ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :( (
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: well the wap apn would make me suspicious if you'll get normal internet connectivity with it. But yes if it's only wap, and if the final version will include a wap browser, then yes, the Neo will work with the plan. OTOH you might something different than what you expect from it. Andreas The wap APN does provide "generic" internet access. But the difference is that is uses a NAT'ed private IP address. Therefore you probably can't use it with a VPN (you would need PDA Connect if that is a requirement for you). But for basic browsing, it will work just fine. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :((
Eric Heinemann wrote: Guys/Gals, Cingular is not clear as to which data plan is the proper one to purchase for a specific phone. Some reps are well informed, while others are not. I currently have a Blackjack, and after 3 days of asking which is the proper plan I just decided to screw it and went with the $40/month plan. Some users have gotten away with the $20/month smartphone plan, and other users have not. It all depends on who you get on the phone. I figure it is a standard corporate thing for a company to issue overage charges, and refund them to those that complain, but let those that do not continue to pay them willingly. I can attest to the fact that communication within a phone company does not exist (used to work for BellSouth). Mike, from my personal experiences with Cingular, anytime I got overage charges from data, I refuted them and was credited back. All that is required is to threaten to switch usually. You do NOT have to sign a contract. Contracts are used to offer a discount on a phone, that you are not purchasing from them. All you would have to do is get a sim card from the carrier and have it activated with the voice/data plan you desire. All of this is from my 5 year experience with Cingular. I hope this will help. -Eric Just for your information Eric, I talked with a rep from Cingular. He very clearly stated that the smartphone plan would work you just have to make sure that you use the correct APN (ie wap.cingular.com NOT isp.cingular.com or you WILL get the overage charges). So you are throwing away $20/month unless there are other reasons behind your decision. So to say it very clearly and concisely, "The Neo will work with the Smartphone Connect plan from Cingular for $19.95/month" As far as not having to sign a contract, I'm pretty sure that you could do it, but it will take some time and dedication. Meaning that when you ask the first person, they will tell you no...but if you keep going up the chain of command explaining that you are bringing your own phone then you MAY be able to bypass the contract. I make no promises on that one as this will depend on your own personable ability to negotiate and explain your case. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :((
Robert Michel wrote: PS: Ahh, and when your aim is to sabotage openmoko (or someone would try it in your style) your noise will not stopp anybody here who is seriously active on/with openmoko - no it will/would strengthen the community. Yeah, through all that ranting I think I/we actually laid out which plans will/won't work very clearly. So, now anyone who will accept help from the list, can get it in a well refined/thought out manner. So in a very strange way, Thanks Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: SmartPhone Connect and Data Connect ONLY? All t-mobile data plans will work? All? Are you with the openmoko project or is your advice conjecture? Is your advice official? This is my point. I would shut up since on this subthread, I look like the only one with the problem. But if you read my "What mobile plan..." thread, you'd find others with similar questions and confusion. First of all, if you can't accept help from anyone other than and "official" OpenMoko developer, then you probably should not be a part of this community. We will make things work together by helping each other. There are only a few "official" OpenMoko developers, but there are many of us here in the community that will give you a hand if you will allow us. That said, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO HELP YOU! (It's amazing that I have to beg you for permission to help you). T-Mobile http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Data http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/default.aspx?plancategory=7 The stand-alone data plans are more expensive. I can only speak from my personal experience in that I pay $19.95/month for unlimited internet as an add-on to my voice plan. I'm sorry that I cannot find a direct link to an "official" site that says this is possible/available. However, I'm just speculating that it is still available. Cingular http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/Cingular_Data_Plans If you read, both Smartphone Connect and PDA Connect have unlimited access to wap.cingular.com I've looked into this pretty extensively as I was considering switching to Cingular (from T-Mobile) due to coverage at my house. I talked to an "offical" Cingular representative on the phone. He said that I could use my PocketPC on the Smartphone Connect plan. Therefore, in my "non-official" opinion, you should be able to use the Neo on the Smartphone Connect Plan. It costs $19.95/month. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Rod Whitby wrote:
I can't believe this thread.
Anyone who is going to be a phone developer should be able to do their own
research on phone plans.
With the attitude being displaying ("I'm out and advising others to do the
same"), I wonder what the reaction would be to a P1 device with bugs in it.
Anyone with an attitude of "OpenMoko must spoon feed me everything" should
probably wait for September ...
Sheesh!
-- Rod
-Original Message-
The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work
and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same.
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Agreed.
And since Mike couldn't read my other post that had this exact same
information, I will post it one more time...just for him. This time
with a little more detail.
Cingular - SmartPhone Connect or Data Connect will work
T-Mobile - Can't find the exact details, but you can sign up for a voice
plan, then add on a data plan as well...those data plans will work with
the Neo.
Does that help?
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Re: Crossroads
Jonathon Suggs wrote: I HIGHLY doubt (I'd actually be willing to bet) that the Neo is incapable of working with the US carriers. Now, that doesn't mean that it will be easy in the first few weeks/months of the developers edition of the device, but it is not a hardware limitation. So, don't worry about whether or not you will be able to get onto the network...you will. It just may require a little elbow grease to get it working. However, if you actually did read the wiki, the developers edition is NOT meant for non-technical users, or users that can't handle bugs. Just to clarify, I'm betting that the Neo WILL be able to get onto the networks via GPRS. I know there is a lot of discussion, but GSM and GPRS are standardized protocols. Therefore, if the NEO hardware is able to implement these standards, then it WILL be able to get onto the network (which I'm willing to bet that it does). Sorry to be condescending, in that last email, but it was written in a somewhat arrogant tone. So, please no bad blood on the mail list. Bottom line, you WILL be able to use the Neo on GPRS networks in the US. My other email has the plans that will work. Again, they may take some additional work to get up and running, but eventually it will work and will be a much more user-friendly experience. But if you want a phone during the developers phase, then don't count on it happening within a specific timetable unless you are willing to do the work yourself. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: Scott Rushforth wrote: ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Not sure what this has to do with Wifi? I think part of the issue is that the openmoko is a GSM device, and GSM is available all over the world. I bet the majority of the company (FIC), and current developers are probably not even in the same country you are. (i have no clue). So especially in this first developer phase, I think its fair and understandable that developers and interested individuals do their own research and experimentation to find out how they will make it work for them, and contribute that back to the community. Let's face it, the device is in its very early form, and a lot of things are not going to be very polished it seems. I for one am willing to pay the 350, and also willing to check my account status with cingular online every few days to see what my usage will look like. What this has to do with wifi is covered in my last email. If I can't have wifi on the device, then I have to rely on the mobile service provider. If I have to rely on the mobile service provider, then I have to figure out what plan to get. If we have to do that, then the openmoko people shouldn't leave us entirely on our own. If they're going to sell worldwide then they should FIGURE OUT worldwide. This is open source development. So we developers aren't making money here. I for, one am NOT willing to pay $350 to get a device that I'm not sure will work with whatever service I choose, and therefore that I'm not sure I can even develop for. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Cingular - SmartPhone Connect or Data Connect will work T-Mobile - Can't find the exact details, but you can sign up for a voice plan, then add on a data plan as well...those data plans will work with the Neo. Does that help? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Scott Rushforth wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:46:57 -0400 Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good to see things moving forward on the wifi issue. But, I was going to be a developer for this platform, but in light of my recent thread, and the lack of wifi support, I don't think I can, at least not until it's launched to the general public, which defeats the entire purpose of the developer release phase. It's because of the following: 1. The sheer quantity of information about finding a mobile provider with a data plan that will support the neo, as indicated by the useful responses to my recent thread. And the lack of certainty of that information. "I think this will work". I appreciate those responses from non-openmoko people, because it's all we've got to go on. And that brings me to problem 2: 2. The fact that the openmoko guys have apparently just washed their hands of the entire issue of which services will work, and aren't providing any information on the site (and very little on the wiki). (At least start with the big countries/regions). Your device is great, guys, your platform sounds great too. But you can't leave us all on our own when it comes to getting the thing on the net. Your neo is a $350 doorstop without a working service provider. 3. If there was wifi on the device this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue, obviously, because we wouldn't need to rely on the provider to get on the net. Either give us detailed information on which providers and plans will work, or get wifi on the device. Those are the two roads at the crossroads. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Not sure what this has to do with Wifi? I think part of the issue is that the openmoko is a GSM device, and GSM is available all over the world. I bet the majority of the company (FIC), and current developers are probably not even in the same country you are. (i have no clue). So especially in this first developer phase, I think its fair and understandable that developers and interested individuals do their own research and experimentation to find out how they will make it work for them, and contribute that back to the community. Let's face it, the device is in its very early form, and a lot of things are not going to be very polished it seems. I for one am willing to pay the 350, and also willing to check my account status with cingular online every few days to see what my usage will look like. I think if one wants a more polished, internet capable device, hopefully this community will help that happen by September. But it will take a community, research, dedication, and time from many individuals. We are at the beginning. Cheers, and I can't wait for phase 1. -Scott ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Not to over simplify, but for the most part GSM and GPRS are very simple. You will get a SIM card from your provider. Here in the US, that would (probably) be either T-Mobile of Cingular. That SIM card is your "key" to get onto the providers networks. If you have a valid SIM card for making calls, then you can put it in and it will "just work". If your SIM also has a data plan associated with it (separate discussion) then you just have to configure some basic information in order for your internet to also "just work." I HIGHLY doubt (I'd actually be willing to bet) that the Neo is incapable of working with the US carriers. Now, that doesn't mean that it will be easy in the first few weeks/months of the developers edition of the device, but it is not a hardware limitation. So, don't worry about whether or not you will be able to get onto the network...you will. It just may require a little elbow grease to get it working. However, if you actually did read the wiki, the developers edition is NOT meant for non-technical users, or users that can't handle bugs. I'm not trying to be overly insulting (directed toward Mike), but I'm not sure how great of a developer you can be if you can't figure out some of these basic questions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Tuesday 13 March 2007 18:49:17 dimitris wrote: Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? I would very much welcome a standard SD slot anyhow. SD cards are available in bigger sizes than MicroSD. Possibly even better, retain the microsd slot for storage and add an fullsize SDIO one for well whatever people want ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Don't know how much re-work that would require, but I really like that idea. I already have 2GB and 4GB SD cards. I'm not overly thrilled about having to use a different format. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Creating a SIP client for the OpenMoko
Chuck Pareto wrote: I was thinking about getting a Sip phone to use with the Gizmo Voip service (my friend is using it and loves it), but then thought about creating a Sip/Voip client to run on the OpenMoko. Does anyone know if this would be possible? Can it be done exclusively in software? I don't know if this has already been covered in the forums so any response would be helpful. -Chuck ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Its been covered, I'm just too lazy to dig up the old threads. I don't think there is a problem with creating a SIP client, but the main issue is the lack of a sufficiently fast enough transmission (ie no WiFi). There is bluetooth and that is a possibility, but would require a Bluetooth Network Access Point. If you have (or plan to have) one of those in your home/wherever then it could make sense, but that won't help you while you are on the go as network access via Bluetooth is pretty scarce. GPRS possibly even EDGE (not in current hardware, but possibly in future revs) isn't great for VoIP. There is a lot of latency in those protocols, so that is why voice doesn't sound that great coming over them. Very simplified explanation, so if you want more details just let us know and I/we will be more specific. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: What moblie service to get, part 2
Mike wrote: mathew davis wrote: you also don't _need_ to sign up for a data plan, but I would bet if your getting this for the neo1973 you will have more features like google maps, internet browsing, and many other features that would require a data plan. Thanks by why don't I need to sign up for a data plan? Can I get on the web/internet without a data plan? Can I "dial" up like I asked in my last email? And if I can, then couldn't I just get google maps by opening up a web browser on my neo and going to maps.google.com, what's the advantage of a data plan? What services are you looking for? You should check the wiki I think it As in what cell phone service plans- tmobile, cingular, contracts, sim cards, data plans, prepaid. what plans will it work with. This seems like an obvious set of common questions. The only thing I found on the wiki was "A: Wikipedia has a list of providers and technologies here. A brief look gives the impression that T-Mobile and Cingular (which is renaming itself AT&T) seem to be the only major ones." That's not enough. thanks m You can "dial" up, it will be really slow and probably unreliable. I think 9.6k is as fast as you can go. Not to mention that when you "dialing in" you will be using your cell phone minutes. A data plan allows you to use GPRS, which is a newer (still pretty old though) and faster connection up to 56k. The down side is that you will probably have to sign a contract. You will then either get an unlimited plan (~$20-40/month) or a pay as you go plan (~.15/kb). Let me know if you want more details. And anyone else feel free to correct any mis-information. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).
Ian Stirling wrote: Ideally - if designing it from a completely clean sheet, you want it so that 'typos' result in very different letters. a e 0 i o would be a spectacularly bad pick, for example, whereas a d 0 q f might be good. This is so autocorrection software can function well. Then there is the fun question of how many 'initial' points, and how many vectors per point. 10 numbers, with 8 drags from each number gives you alphanumeric, and easily 30 common phrases, or word components. 'I'll be ' 'home ' 'at ' '6' 'P' 'M' ' ' 'Love you!' In 8 strokes. If you go slightly further, and each stroke can either terminate normally, go longer, go clockwise, go anticlockwise, or return, that takes you up to 5 per stroke, or 400 'keys'. It would be lovely if this was incrementally learnable. First level - press 0, hold, get d a 0 q f splashing out. Once you're comfortable, you get D d Q a 0 q A f F Drag and hold to F, and you get Finish First Found F Find Friday ( down-right stroke from 0 = F, turning clockwise is Find ) And the words for 'f' might be 'food, friend, ...' Being silly, you can then hold on food, and go out to 'pizza, chips, kebab, lunch' ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community One thing to do is look at existing designs for reference/inspiration. I mentioned the fitaly layout in a different post, but here is a link to help with the visualization. http://www.fitaly.com/wince/pocketpcfitaly.htm Auto-correction software is great when it works, but annoying when it doesn't. So it should be configurable and not mandatory. You had some good ideas in there. The food => 'pizza, chips, kebab, lunch' is stretching it a little bit, but still not a bad idea. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yet another finger keybord (gui mock-up).
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: Clear yes, but also about 3 times smaller than on your desktop screen... First, I really like this idea for input and think it has potential to being very intuitive while allowing a decent input rate. That said, the screen size (and corresponding button size) is an issue to be conscious of. You want to find the happy medium where you make the most efficient use of as little space as possible. As you make the button input area larger, you are taking up more of the application area. But without seeing how this would look on the actual device, it at least looks like a good ratio. Which gives rise to the question of how to best arrange them... That is a question that people will probably have different opinions on. How much effort would it be to have several different layouts. Some with more characters, some with less. Some more similar to qwerty other more sequential (abc...) and possibly others mimicking fitaly. You could define your default layout as a preference. And you could switch between layouts at any time (possibly via the scroll-wheel or other method). Add another button that allows to tap shortcuts (for example like it is done in some of the vnc clients). In general, I find I'm using LESS keys for terminal work than for text entry. YMMV. See everybody has their own unique usage requirements. So lets keep it flexible to accommodate the most amount of people possible. I think the size is close to optimal with 6 buttons wide (but it must be tested on a neo to be sure). The total area is not to big and high, and the 'drags' is not so long. If you use drag vectors instead of actual taps on the buttons, you might get away with very short drags, really. Exactly. I don't think it would be that hard. You've got 60deg of area for an accurate hit. Also, having the background of the keys change as you are on the key gives great visual feedback. Do you really need all those keys? I generally don't. Then again, I don't plan on doing non emergency work in terminals either... And on a notebook you usually don't have all of them for direct access, either. Again, just showing that different people have different opinions. Lets try to make it useful for everyone. I would prefer less keys, but that is just me. Heres another thought. Don't know how it would work/feel, but it might give good tactile feedback to give a quick vibration pulse after every key press (on the release). It might help to minimize the disjoint that can sometime happen with you are just touching a flat surface. One step further, it might also help if it gave a quick vibration when you dragged into different areas. That way you could tell via touch when you were in the different sectors. Keep the ideas going. This is one of the best to come out in a while! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possible security hole for Dialers/troyan horses
Tomasz Zielinski wrote: 2007/3/1, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: then give it a rating of some sort 1 - being safe/trusted program and 10 - being known bad binary/ don't use at any cost unless you really want bad things to happen. Well, nobody will recognize difference between rating 2 and 3 or 6 and 7. I think set of three values is sufficient: 1 - allow network/GSM activity, 2 - ask every time app is trying to open connection/send SMS/make voice call, 3 - ban without asking. I wonder if OpenMoko system/library calls can be overriden or catch at layer which will be able to show dialog popup for setting 2. I really like that idea. That could be a standard part of EVERY installed app (outside of trusted OpenMoko apps). Just one more step in helping users not shoot themselves in the foot. As far as the implementation. If this is the way we wanted to proceed, then yeah its possible, but would require a decent amount of work that would have to get incorporated into the main trunk. As a general rule, anything is possible. But it comes down to how much time/effort would it require, and if people are willing to put in that time/effort. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possible security hole for Dialers/troyan horses
kkr wrote: Le jeudi 01 mars 2007 à 09:48 -0600, Jonathon Suggs a écrit : Isn't this something along the lines of SELinux? If that is the case, is that something we should look at implementing? As I understood SELinux, it would be a good tool for security. Many (or most) other (close) Linux phone use SELinux to (successfully) block hacker who want to free their phone. But if we use it for our interest, I feel, it would be fine. But if a user doesn't want to think about the problem of security, as he will download anything from everywhere (binary from untrusted source), he will simply switch off SELinux in a way of making working his new (downloaded) application... As I remember, with Fedora Core 6 (which use SELinux), when I've installed some application from official repository, some application doesn't work because the policy of SELinux is not, or badly implemented for them. So, I did have the chose to: - write by myself a new SELinux policy (but I do not have enough skill to do that) - disable SELinux to use it - not use it So, if I've chose to wait an update of the SELinux policy, I guess, some users would simply chose to disable SELinux... We can do nothing for users which doesn't care about security concern, except trying to educated them... Or simply don't care about their problem. Regards, ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Good points. The goal is usability. We shouldn't have to make the device bend to our will...it should behave naturally as one would expect. Having end users even think of what a SELinux policy is 100% wrong. First because they don't necessarily need to know about it. Two, some/most won't comprehend what it is or why then need/want it. Third, when given your three options I would guess there are only two solutions. One is have a nasty enough dialog "Doing this WILL cause your phone to explode, don't do it" and they won't use the software and be confused. The other is that they just disable SELinux (or whatever security/preventative measure) and install the software. Designing software is hard. Making it user friendly is hard. Preventing users from doing dumb things is hard. Then throw into the mix trying to design a system that will protect against poorly written software or malicious software and things get really hard. But that is why we are discussing this...trying to figure out a solution. That said, is SELinux a good thing to look into for OpenMoko? What are the difficulties? How does that affect the developers? Keep the dialog going. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FOSDEM OpenMoko talk now on video.google.com
kkr wrote: Why not use an open format (.ogg) rather than proprietary one (.avi)? Regards, Really not trying to start a fight here. But more players support avi than ogg. Therefore I agree with the choice. Open formats and standards are great when they stand on their own merits. Not that ogg isn't better, but the goal is to spread information, therefore we want the most people to be able to view the video. Bottom line is open standards aren't better just because they are open standards. I can't believe this argument comes up even on which video codec is used... No wonder mailing lists can be "scary" to new comers. All of that to say. They guy did something positive. You criticized. Why should he want to help you in the future? Instead of complaining, re-encode into ogg with your own time and resources and let people have the CHOICE of what they want to use. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bluetooth Headset - Voice Commands
Mike Hodson wrote: On 2/28/07, Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The reason that I ask is that on my PocketPC phone (iMate PDA2K), there is supposedly a hardware limitation that will not allow for this to occur. It can have the bluetooth headset button initiate the program, but it cannot use the bluetooth headset to transfer the audio to the program. It has to use the built-in microphone for routing audio to the voice command software. I don't remember specifics, but I think it was because the bluetooth module tied to the gsm module in hardware or something along those lines. All of that to ask, is the bluetooth implementation on this device going to have that same limitation? I was looking through the wiki and noticed the bluetooth is connected to the USB Host Controller...so I am hopeful it won't suffer the same limitation. I'm going out on a limb here and hypothesizing again, however it may shed some light: My understanding of how the OpenMoko software stack works, is that it will be using some a software audio routing interface, either direct ALSA or gstreamer (tied into ALSA as the audio access method). The audio can go between the mic/speaker thru the wolfson codec, or you can switch it to the bluetooth device. By being connected to the USB bus, this works exactly like every current Linux computer with bluetooth: as of now, the BlueZ stack can do SCO / headset, and they are working daily on properly working A2DP (advanced audio) stereo codec support both as alsa modules. It would then be my guess, that all the OpenMoko software would have to do, is change the alsa input/output by responding handsfree button or avrcp commands (for stereo headsets). That sounds reasonable and based on what I can see about the hardware in the wiki seems correct. So unless someone sees a problem, then I think we are good to go with that. So, somewhere in the configuration there needs to be a setting for handling BT headset (and button presses). The first thing should be a checkbox for "Respond to Headset Presses" then if it is checked, then it will have a box for a command to run. The command would be (from my previous example) "/path/to/VoiceControl". I guess there should also be another checkbox for "Route Audio to Headset" which would do just that. Allowing my previous scenario of being able to initiate voice commands from the BT headset possible. Does this make sense to everyone? The reason I think this is so useful is that it can make the phone (with a BT headset) operateable without having to ever touch it (useful while driving). You could have the phone docked and say "Run GPS" or "Call John Smith" or "Show John Smith" or "Directions to John Smith" and it take the appropriate action all while keeping you eyes on the road. There are plenty of other possibilities, but those are just the ones that I find useful. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possible security hole for Dialers/troyan horses
Martin Raißle wrote: On 3/1/07, Krzysztof Kajkowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: However there might be such attempts to create GSM trojans and we should be aware to enable user to protect itself. The question is how to do that? What do you think? First off all I think that there are good chances for a trojan, even if it has to be downloaded manually ... think about all the trojans for windows ... and in phase 2 and beyond this phone will probably have users that don't mind about security ... I think it would be a good idea to be able to set the rights of an application, like - can/cannot make calls / send sms - can/cannot read/edit adress book / calendar - can/cannot initiate gprs-connections - can/cannot use gps and to safe normal user all rights, that can create costs should be disabled by default .. regards martin Isn't this something along the lines of SELinux? If that is the case, is that something we should look at implementing? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Bluetooth Headset - Voice Commands
I know we never came to an official conclusion on the voice command question, but I'm going to intentionally jump ahead and ask another question concerning Bluetooth. So for the sake of the question, lets assume we have a program called VoiceControl that handles taking spoken commands and taking appropriate action...and we'll assume its an awesome program too. When there is no call currently in progress, can we press the button on the headset and have that do two things. First, route the audio input and output to the Bluetooth headset and secondly call VoiceControl? That way when driving/walking I could have the phone docked/cradled/in my pocket and when I wanted to make a phone call, I could simply press the bluetooth headset button and say "Call [whoever]" and the phone automatically dial [whoever]. The reason that I ask is that on my PocketPC phone (iMate PDA2K), there is supposedly a hardware limitation that will not allow for this to occur. It can have the bluetooth headset button initiate the program, but it cannot use the bluetooth headset to transfer the audio to the program. It has to use the built-in microphone for routing audio to the voice command software. I don't remember specifics, but I think it was because the bluetooth module tied to the gsm module in hardware or something along those lines. All of that to ask, is the bluetooth implementation on this device going to have that same limitation? I was looking through the wiki and noticed the bluetooth is connected to the USB Host Controller...so I am hopeful it won't suffer the same limitation. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Thunderbird - Reply to Mail List
I feel really stupid asking this, but I am having troubles using Thunderbird. I receive the list in digest mode. For each digest, it will show up as a single messages in my inbox. Also for each digest it will have each individual message as an attachment. But I cannot find a way to respond to an individual message. If I open one of the attachments (ie individual message), it will not let me reply (can click the reply button, but nothing happens). I was thinking this should be a very easy thing to do (and other mail clients make this easy), but I am pretty much stumped. Any thoughts? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Voice Activated Controls
Does anyone know of any software for natural language processing that could be ported to OM/Neo? I really like some of the software that is available for the PocketPC (MS Voice Commander and Fonix). They both run and work well on a resource limited platform as well, so it *can* be done, but both are closed. Here are a couple of OS engines: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/pocketsphinx/ http://julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=en/index.html http://xvoice.sourceforge.net/ So I guess, is there already any voice control software planned/worked on for use in OpenMoko? If not, I'll help out, but can we get a project up and running? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Missed call communication protocol
Alexandre Ghisoli wrote: > I was working on a project, maybe 15 years ago, where we developped a "modem" > to transfer data : > 1/ during setup, for free > 2/ during the blanks of a conversation (approx 80% of the time, because only > one speaks at time, so you got a free 64kbps channel )) > This takes not very long until telco notice the D channel trafic, and since > then, they charge for alerting, even if no answer (maybe 10% of unanswered > call) to cover this trafic costs. Telcos are not going to let this type of thing happen. I'm all for being able to do things for 'free as in beer' with my 'free as in speech' phone...BUT if we start abusing some features/protocols then they will notice/retaliate. That said, this has been a great thread with some very good concepts and "outside the box" thinking. However, the underlying concept of what we are doing/proposing *IS WRONG* no matter how you look at it. We are trying to effectively use something that does cost money (air time) and instead of paying for it, manipulate it so that we get benefit and pay nothing in return. Look up the definition of parasite. Sorry if this is brash, and I feel as though telcos are over controlling and should be deregulated. But this is not the way to go about it. This is also has potential for giving OpenMoko and open phones in general a bad name/press. Headlines reading "renegade phones undermine network, higher charges for everyone coming" with some baseless statistics about how much it cost them to effectively ban this activity. With a project in its infancy we need to make friends not enemies. We especially don't need to (unnecessarily) piss off the people that control the communication links...as without them (love or hate them) we can't really do anything. I think it was brought up before that the underlying messaging protocol should be pluggable/interchangeable. That sounds like a good way to proceed. Being able to specify if you should get notifications via SMS or a persistent GPRS connection or even possibly through an out-of-band signaling method like what is being discussed sounds like a good way of proceeding. Then, the user can have the choice of using the best method given their situation. I would choose GPRS since I have a unlimited usage flat-rate plan, others have free/cheap SMS, so they could use that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > Agreed. Really what I would like to see is one messages program that will > handle messages as (more or less) generic objects. I never understood why > every phone I had thinks that emails, SMS, and MMS are different animals. > > Even better, the type of message should be determined by the recipients > capabilities / sender's network. For example if I'm sending a message to a > friend who happens to be online, and I have a data connection, why not try > IM instead of SMS? > > We have the start of a draft spec in place for this now...but we've yet to > start on coding it. Anyways, messaging is _huge_ for mobile devices. Perhaps > even more important than voice for many people (*cough* Harald ;-) > > Once we get NEOs out into the wild, this will be a huge priority for us That sounds very interesting. I very much like the concept and look forward to seeing how it is implemented. Although it is an overall travesty, Windows Mobile has a single messaging program that you can configure all of your different "inboxes" in (SMS, MMS, POP, IMAP, etc) but they are all separate entities. When sending, you still have to choose which account you are sending from (but that is not a bad thing IMHO). On the other hand, I see some very big hurdles. First, you would have to know a lot (not really, but just follow) about your contact as SMS, IM and email are different protocols "owned/managed" by different entities (SMS/MMS=carrier, IM=aim,yahoo,google,etc, email=email provider). Also, this messaging client would have to know how to "talk" over all of the IM protocols, SMS/MMS (has standards, but different carriers sometimes do different things), and email (pretty standard protocol, so no biggie). This isn't to say that it can't be done, and I'm sure that it has all been thought through, but it ain't going to be easy to get people (especially carriers) to work with you. > Ah...I see your point and concern. Don't worry, we will make sure NEOs won't > live on an island. In fact, most of our motivation for this project comes > from the fact that current mobile phones _are_ so removed from the devices > and networks we spend most of our time working under. We're trying to extend > the possibilities of communication. Help turn the mobile industry into a > more open environment for everyone. Naturally we must be self-aware of other > "closed" handsets. ;-) > > Thanks for voicing your concerns and comments. > > -Sean Not overly worried, but it is easy to get caught up in the excitement. I've seen quite a few posts about ideas that evolve around "everyone" all having a Neo... And that just isn't going to happen (especially in the near term). Just thought I would give a quick reality check. Getting the mobile industry to be a more open environment for everyone is a great idea and one that I support, but as they say "Rome wasn't built in a day." In general, mobile carriers are some of the biggest control freaks, so needless to say, they aren't going to welcome these type of projects with open arms. All that aside, I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2-3 parallel solution to choose by the user? Re: Any, alternative ideas to fullscreen popup-messages?
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: > Do you really want e.g. the "incoming phone" confirmation dialog behave like > that? > [more notification strategies] > ... > I understand your point, I just think that this kind of thinking is not what > the majority of smartphone users wants or is it? Guys? I think Mickey is right about the "majority." When I get a phone call, 97.842% of the time it is the most important thing that is happening and should be treated as such (almost fullscreen pop-up with VERY large, easy to press with a finger buttons [ANSWER] [IGNORE] (or whatever they would say)) Now, do I want all pop-ups like that? Probably not. I really like the idea of the 'footer' being able to "stack" several notifications that I can review at my convenience. Moving right along, I think a good way to proceed is to have a system API for creating notifications. You can give them different levels, priorities or whatever you want to call them. But so long as there is a generic way to create them (and all applications use that API) then exactly how they are displayed can be customized by the user. The default setting can be the 2/3 screen pop-up. But it could be overridden... -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fax modem? Fax software? Neo as T.38 gateway?
Harald Welte wrote: > yes, the GSM Modem we use has standard AT command Fax modem functionality. I'm not 100% sure about everything I'm about to say, but I vaguely remember some things from a similar discussion a while back. In order for you to send/receive fax via a GSM connection requires you to notify your carrier and them enable some features (CSD fax/data service plan). Here are some links that have some information, but I'm not sure how current it is... http://www.howardforums.com/archive/topic/598950-1.html http://www.conklinsystems.com/palm/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212&sid=4513920d88d45b8bc13c2d1b1bc4f661 http://www.ksesoftware.com/showthread.php?id=21 Hope this helps... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Q: desktop software?
Good question. I think it was mentioned earlier that the phone will support some stand protocols for syncing (syncml comes to mind). However, it still isn't an easy task to get you synced up with Outlook. That would be a GREAT thing to put in the wiki. "How to sync with Outlook (via whatever)" as that will probably be a top request. I've tried to look into what all would be involved in setting up a server, but didn't really get that far (didn't spend that much time though). If someone knows of a good guide, then please post. Keep the ideas flowing! On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 21:08 +0200, Oleg L. Sverdlov wrote: > What software is planned on desktop side? If any. > > > > This is important thing IMHO. > > > There are good and bad examples. > > > Palm Desktop for Windows was good. I'm using it from 1998, did not > loose any data. It serves both as organizer, address book and as palm > synchronization. That is what I call high quality software. > > > On the other side, software with Zaurus handheld was just unusable. > The lack of good desktop sync software contributed to the failure of > Zaurus organizer project. > > > > Oleg > > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
