[computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. - Andy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. This more or less happened in the Leela vs Xiao Ai Lin match. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Andy wrote: Just to prevent losing a won game on time. By the way, most bots on KGS resign lost games. So most people who lose on time are usually in a lost position themselves. There are exceptions with difficult LD situations, but really, I expect almost nothing to happen to the bots ratings when going to byo-yomi. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: Andy wrote: Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. The problem is not GTP, but the KGS client. The time_left of kgsgtp does not give any indication of the number of byo-yomi periods left, if I remember correctly. Crazy Stone plays on KGS with a fast byo-yomi (5x10s). It does not use the byo-yomi. So Crazy Stone plays on KGS with a disadvantage. But I don't mind, and I find it is more friendly to human opponents. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:40 -0500, Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. I agree. For purposes of judging the strength of computers in man vs machine matches, there should be a standardized time control that is comfortable and match-like for humans.And it should be strictly enforced too. It really annoys me when rules are ignored based on judgment calls. I cannot imagine a tennis player being given the win after hitting a ball out because he out-played his opponent during the point and just happened to miss that least easy shot. I happen to feel that byoyomi is not very logical and that a Fischer type clock is superior but that's beside the point - byoyomi is still way better than sudden death. - Don Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. - Andy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
In such a case, I think it's better for the human not to have a time control at all. This is more satisfying than having a human lose on time, but giving the win to him anyway under the assumption that he didn't really need all that time even though he used it. - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 19:49 +0200, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. This more or less happened in the Leela vs Xiao Ai Lin match. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:40 -0500, Andy wrote: Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. The gift is 0.75 seconds as it turns out. And I really hate the Bronstein clock compared to the Fischer, but it's not so bad if the delay is pretty small.For instance a 1 second delay in chess would easily cover the administrative cost of making a move, in other words the physical process time of moving the piece, punching your clock, etc. But a Fischer clock is way more logical in my opinion. You get the time increment added to your clock for each move and you don't get penalized for moving quickly like you do with Bronstein. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Don Dailey wrote: In such a case, I think it's better for the human not to have a time control at all. This is more satisfying than having a human lose on time, but giving the win to him anyway under the assumption that he didn't really need all that time even though he used it. I think the problem is that in this case the match can't possibly show anything. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Sent from my iPhone On Sep 4, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. kgs-time_settings is much easier to interpret. KGS will send time_left 0 0 when you run out of main time. I don't remember what it does when you lose a byo yomi period. When in byo yomi, time_left will still have 0 for the 2nd parameter. HouseBot is coded to use only the first byo yomi period. Just like other monte-carlo bots, I don't recognize moves that require more think time, so I don't bother using all periods yet. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
