Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Mac exploits are also not worth much on the open market. On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:17 PM, John Duncan Yoyo wrote: > I think part of the reason the Mac gets taken first in PWN to OWN is that > it > is the only one worth the effort. > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: > > > Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn > to > > own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep > > trying. > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:00 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > > > > > On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: > > > > > >> Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. > > But > > >> logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's > go > > >> after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go > after > > >> the > > >> one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more > secure. > > >> As > > >> has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not > by > > >> design. But the end result for the user is more security just the > same. > > >> > > > > > > 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is > a > > > direct and simple explanation? > > > > > > People find potential problems in all operating systems and > manufacturers > > > issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell > > the > > > difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets > > > compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the > > > wild. As I mentioned earlier, the "I Love You" virus was huge and it > was > > > written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not > > > genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. > > > > > > 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. > > > > > > Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is > > > open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. > > Etc. > > > Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not "security by > > > obscurity" it is security by good engineering. > > > > > > I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon "birthers" and I > > could > > > not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and > > > obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it > "no-nothing > > > evasion" and "seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments." I could > not > > > have said it better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy > ** > > > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/** > > > > * > > > > > > > > > * > > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > > * > > > > > > -- > John Duncan Yoyo > ---o) > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
I think part of the reason the Mac gets taken first in PWN to OWN is that it is the only one worth the effort. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: > Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to > own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep > trying. > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:00 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: > > > >> Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. > But > >> logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go > >> after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after > >> the > >> one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. > >> As > >> has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by > >> design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. > >> > > > > 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is a > > direct and simple explanation? > > > > People find potential problems in all operating systems and manufacturers > > issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell > the > > difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets > > compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the > > wild. As I mentioned earlier, the "I Love You" virus was huge and it was > > written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not > > genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. > > > > 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. > > > > Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is > > open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. > Etc. > > Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not "security by > > obscurity" it is security by good engineering. > > > > I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon "birthers" and I > could > > not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and > > obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it "no-nothing > > evasion" and "seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments." I could not > > have said it better. > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > > * > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
On Aug 3, 2009, at 6:08 AM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Remember, Dr. Crichton died in 2008 and had not revised his position before his death. I agree with you. It is very unlikely that he will change his opinion at this point. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
Do you have an actual argument to make or are insults all you offer? Remember, Dr. Crichton died in 2008 and had not revised his position before his death. Matthew On Aug 2, 2009, at 11:16 PM, TPiwowar wrote: On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: What makes you sure? Do you have any evidence to support that view? Is there anything materially different about our understanding of climate between then and now that is especially compelling? I'm sure that in lalaland nothing has changed since the last ice age. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
You mean of course like a longer timeline of static temps? On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: > >> To amplify my point: >> http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html >> > > Reasonable and thoughtful. However, this speech was given over 4-1/2 years > ago. Since then scientists have accumulated much additional evidence. If he > were alive today I'm sure he would revise his position. > > Of course in lalaland we are invincible. Confident that Captain America > will fix it using his super cooling breath or something like that. > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: What makes you sure? Do you have any evidence to support that view? Is there anything materially different about our understanding of climate between then and now that is especially compelling? I'm sure that in lalaland nothing has changed since the last ice age. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
What makes you sure? Do you have any evidence to support that view? Is there anything materially different about our understanding of climate between then and now that is especially compelling? Matthew On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:35 PM, TPiwowar wrote: On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: To amplify my point: http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html Reasonable and thoughtful. However, this speech was given over 4-1/2 years ago. Since then scientists have accumulated much additional evidence. If he were alive today I'm sure he would revise his position. Of course in lalaland we are invincible. Confident that Captain America will fix it using his super cooling breath or something like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: To amplify my point: http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html Reasonable and thoughtful. However, this speech was given over 4-1/2 years ago. Since then scientists have accumulated much additional evidence. If he were alive today I'm sure he would revise his position. Of course in lalaland we are invincible. Confident that Captain America will fix it using his super cooling breath or something like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
To amplify my point: http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Interesting you should choose the Late Mr. Crichton. Many in the AGW Alarmist camp revile his heretical views that consensus != science. Matthew On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:44 PM, TPiwowar wrote: "The greatest challenges facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda. Perceiving the truth has always been a challenge to mankind, but in the information age (or, as I think of it, the disinformation age) it takes on a special urgency and importance." . . . Michael Crichton * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Wow- that's the kettle calling the pot black. You are the Primary denier. I have no axe to grind- you, on the other hand, have no axe but one with a Mac imprint deeply engrained. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 08/02/2009 9:31 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > That's EXACTLY what I mean, Tom. FACTS! I am not going to waste any more time on you Birthers. You just ignore the facts and this goes around and around. Auditioning for Fox News I guess. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
Interesting you should choose the Late Mr. Crichton. Many in the AGW Alarmist camp revile his heretical views that consensus != science. Matthew On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:44 PM, TPiwowar wrote: "The greatest challenges facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda. Perceiving the truth has always been a challenge to mankind, but in the information age (or, as I think of it, the disinformation age) it takes on a special urgency and importance." . . . Michael Crichton * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT - Michael Crichton
"The greatest challenges facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda. Perceiving the truth has always been a challenge to mankind, but in the information age (or, as I think of it, the disinformation age) it takes on a special urgency and importance." . . . Michael Crichton * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: That's EXACTLY what I mean, Tom. FACTS! I am not going to waste any more time on you Birthers. You just ignore the facts and this goes around and around. Auditioning for Fox News I guess. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
That's EXACTLY what I mean, Tom. FACTS! Your example is what they prognosticate- so they can always beat the numbers. What they report- that's real. Please keep to reality- and not like they do on reality TV. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 08/02/2009 6:30 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > Absolutely NOT, Tom. There just is no point in debating facts with > one who > only wants to employ facts that either are invented (Gartner clearly > contravenes Apple- and the penalties for lying- in spite of your coy, > smart-aleck reply- require jail time of some sort or another) or > invented > out of thin air. You are out in lalaland. Apple always does this. It is well known. Stock bloggers complain about this all the time... "But that picture, perfectly tells the story on AAPL's earnings tonight, and AAPL's phony guidance. Put a picture out for a billion Apps, when they've done 1.5 billion, and it's misleading. But purposely underestimate your earnings numbers, and it's not. It's just Wall Street. After all, isn't that how AAPL works?" http://aaronandmoses.blogspot.com/2009/07/apple-on-deck-for- earnings.html On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > And, the same experts that enunciated this exploits are the ones who > enunciated them for M$ that M$ failed to act upon, leaving problems > for us. > Apple knew of at least some of these- and did not act- but one > would hope > now that they are more publically available- will respond. If not, > guard > your data and your mailing lists- and your phones. There you are in lalaland again. The patch was out the next day. Nothing was ever exploited. You keep fuming about things that never happened and then get all bent out of shape when I cite things that did happen. You live a fantasy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
That's true, I cling. I note you can't dispute the facts however. On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:49 PM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:37 PM, mike wrote: > >> It was never exploited out in the wild. The patch was out weeks after >> Apple >> knew about it, not the next day. The patch was out the day after the >> exploit was shown at the blackhat conference, Apple realized they couldn't >> put it off anymore. >> > > It is amusing to watch you desperately cling to your lalaland passport. > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:37 PM, mike wrote: It was never exploited out in the wild. The patch was out weeks after Apple knew about it, not the next day. The patch was out the day after the exploit was shown at the blackhat conference, Apple realized they couldn't put it off anymore. It is amusing to watch you desperately cling to your lalaland passport. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
It was never exploited out in the wild. The patch was out weeks after Apple knew about it, not the next day. The patch was out the day after the exploit was shown at the blackhat conference, Apple realized they couldn't put it off anymore. On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:29 PM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > >> Absolutely NOT, Tom. There just is no point in debating facts with one >> who >> only wants to employ facts that either are invented (Gartner clearly >> contravenes Apple- and the penalties for lying- in spite of your coy, >> smart-aleck reply- require jail time of some sort or another) or invented >> out of thin air. >> > > You are out in lalaland. Apple always does this. It is well known. Stock > bloggers complain about this all the time... > > "But that picture, perfectly tells the story on AAPL's earnings tonight, > and AAPL's phony guidance. > Put a picture out for a billion Apps, when they've done 1.5 billion, and > it's misleading. > But purposely underestimate your earnings numbers, and it's not. It's just > Wall Street. > After all, isn't that how AAPL works?" > http://aaronandmoses.blogspot.com/2009/07/apple-on-deck-for-earnings.html > > On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > >> And, the same experts that enunciated this exploits are the ones who >> enunciated them for M$ that M$ failed to act upon, leaving problems for >> us. >> Apple knew of at least some of these- and did not act- but one would hope >> now that they are more publically available- will respond. If not, guard >> your data and your mailing lists- and your phones. >> > > There you are in lalaland again. The patch was out the next day. Nothing > was ever exploited. You keep fuming about things that never happened and > then get all bent out of shape when I cite things that did happen. You live > a fantasy. > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: Absolutely NOT, Tom. There just is no point in debating facts with one who only wants to employ facts that either are invented (Gartner clearly contravenes Apple- and the penalties for lying- in spite of your coy, smart-aleck reply- require jail time of some sort or another) or invented out of thin air. You are out in lalaland. Apple always does this. It is well known. Stock bloggers complain about this all the time... "But that picture, perfectly tells the story on AAPL's earnings tonight, and AAPL's phony guidance. Put a picture out for a billion Apps, when they've done 1.5 billion, and it's misleading. But purposely underestimate your earnings numbers, and it's not. It's just Wall Street. After all, isn't that how AAPL works?" http://aaronandmoses.blogspot.com/2009/07/apple-on-deck-for- earnings.html On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: And, the same experts that enunciated this exploits are the ones who enunciated them for M$ that M$ failed to act upon, leaving problems for us. Apple knew of at least some of these- and did not act- but one would hope now that they are more publically available- will respond. If not, guard your data and your mailing lists- and your phones. There you are in lalaland again. The patch was out the next day. Nothing was ever exploited. You keep fuming about things that never happened and then get all bent out of shape when I cite things that did happen. You live a fantasy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Absolutely NOT, Tom. There just is no point in debating facts with one who only wants to employ facts that either are invented (Gartner clearly contravenes Apple- and the penalties for lying- in spite of your coy, smart-aleck reply- require jail time of some sort or another) or invented out of thin air. And, the same experts that enunciated this exploits are the ones who enunciated them for M$ that M$ failed to act upon, leaving problems for us. Apple knew of at least some of these- and did not act- but one would hope now that they are more publically available- will respond. If not, guard your data and your mailing lists- and your phones. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 08/02/2009 2:37 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:34 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > I don't care what Gartner says if APPLE posts differently to the > Feds (SEC) > and signs on that it is accurate. I doubt Apple execs want to go > to jail. > Gartner will not go to jail if it provides wrong information. > > Eschew Obfuscation Apple always downplays the positives and emphasizes the negatives and uncertainties in SEC filings. There is no incentive to do otherwise. I presume your changing the subject to be a tacit admission that your assertion about "significant security failures" was horse shit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
> Correct. I guess you are not always wrong. Keep up the good work. *pt* Apple. Options. Restatement. I'll presume you know how to google that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 2, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: And we know that Apple *never* lies to the gummint about its finances. Correct. I guess you are not always wrong. Keep up the good work. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 2, 2009, at 5:34 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: I don't care what Gartner says if APPLE posts differently to the Feds (SEC) and signs on that it is accurate. I doubt Apple execs want to go to jail. Gartner will not go to jail if it provides wrong information. Eschew Obfuscation Apple always downplays the positives and emphasizes the negatives and uncertainties in SEC filings. There is no incentive to do otherwise. I presume your changing the subject to be a tacit admission that your assertion about "significant security failures" was horse shit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
> I don't care what Gartner says if APPLE posts differently to the Feds (SEC) > and signs on that it is accurate. I doubt Apple execs want to go to jail. > Gartner will not go to jail if it provides wrong information. Yeah, but Gartner will kick sand in their face and hide their sunscreen if they lie to them. And we know that Apple *never* lies to the gummint about its finances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
I don't care what Gartner says if APPLE posts differently to the Feds (SEC) and signs on that it is accurate. I doubt Apple execs want to go to jail. Gartner will not go to jail if it provides wrong information. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 07/31/2009 3:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > And, let us not be so smug- the reports over the past two days of > significant security failures in Macs, iPhones, and iPods means > that as > Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target and its > inherent > flaws will force the (heretofore smug) users of these devices to > update and > add security (antivirus, antispam, and personal security firewalls) to > preclude the loss/damage of private information. > > Eschew Obfuscation Looks like a case of "Obfuscation" to me. What "security failures." Should you truthfully be calling it "discovery of potential flaws?" It ain't a "security failure" if it hasn't been exploited and it hasn't. Just like you are potentially deceased, but I'm sure you don't want us to consider you dead. By your faulty logic we are all dead already. > ...as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target... This is more faulty logic. Products with large market shares do not have to be defective. You use one company, M$, as your model and come up with wild assertions. You are not thinking straight. > the (heretofore smug) users "Smug" carries too much baggage to be accurate. "Smug" implies excessive pride. Mac users pride is hard earned and based on real achievement. Only someone with an excessive Windows inferiority complex would use the word "smug." Speaking of having an excessive Windows inferiority complex, did you catch the Ballmer anti-Apple tirade... http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2009/07/31/ballmer-skeptical-of- apple-share-gains/ "Share versus Apple, you know, we think we may have ticked up a little tick, but when you get right down to it, it's a rounding error," he said. "Apple's share change, plus or minus from ours, they took a little share a couple quarters, we took share back a couple quarters. But Apple's share globally cost us nothing. Now, hopefully, we will take share back from Apple, but you know, Apple still only sells about 10 million PCs, so it is a limited opportunity." *** Shipments of Apple's Mac PCs rose 4 percent in the June quarter, while the global PC market shrank 5 percent, according to Gartner. *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
> On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: > > Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. > Then Tom wrote: > You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality > you are. Seriously? This is an "attack?" Really? Just how tender are your sensibilities? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
> Gruber is not a MFB. He often takes Apple to task. You seem to think > that mere knowledge of Macs makes someone a fan boi. Sure, Tom, sure, whatever you say. When sturdy and dependable right-wingers, like Buchannan and Limbaugh, criticized Bush during his presidency, they weren't being Republicans. > I see that in > your mind only a know-nothing can be relied on to see Macs > objectively. That's a good start. Considering with which the fanatical zealotry that Appleistas typically defend their platform, I'm surprised that you can't see the wisdom in that. I'll bet you expect Yankees fans to be objective about baseball too. > You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality > you are. As I wrote earlier, when I was reading about the "birthers" > it was déjà vu. Is this all you've got? Demagoguery? Tarring with dumb, broad brushes? Projecting your own cheap, rhetorical tricks on everyone else? I know better by now than to expect you to actually argue from a position of facts and knowledge. You are, if nothing else, the true master of irony. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. Gruber is not a MFB. He often takes Apple to task. You seem to think that mere knowledge of Macs makes someone a fan boi. I see that in your mind only a know-nothing can be relied on to see Macs objectively. You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality you are. As I wrote earlier, when I was reading about the "birthers" it was déjà vu. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
> > http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/microsofts_long_slow_decline > > John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain > around the concept of quality. Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. Would you consider a hard-right neocon analysis of the Democrats "well thought out?" > On reflection I'm thinking the "Laptop Hunters" ads may be a M$ > suicide note. I believe the words you are looking for regarding your new Mac prices is "thank you." * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
Oh, so that's why Apple lowers prices, panic.. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:32 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > M$ management in a panic starts fire sale... > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_30/b4140051491507.htm > > "Microsoft has long enjoyed Olympian profit margins, using its monopoly > power to maintain prices on its software even in tough times. But now, amid > a terrible downturn and rising competition, CEO Steven A. Ballmer is > shifting to a scrappier approach. He is cutting prices on a variety of > fronts, from flagship Windows and Office products to newfangled Internet > services. " > > "Microsoft has so many promotions for Office that its effective price is > $100, down from $150, and even lower in such countries as Brazil and > India..." > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
M$ management in a panic starts fire sale... http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_30/b4140051491507.htm "Microsoft has long enjoyed Olympian profit margins, using its monopoly power to maintain prices on its software even in tough times. But now, amid a terrible downturn and rising competition, CEO Steven A. Ballmer is shifting to a scrappier approach. He is cutting prices on a variety of fronts, from flagship Windows and Office products to newfangled Internet services. " "Microsoft has so many promotions for Office that its effective price is $100, down from $150, and even lower in such countries as Brazil and India..." * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
MS hasn't thrown anyone out windows lately either. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > >> In addition, Apple outsources the bulk of its production to China. You >> can >> do your own political calculations with that. >> > > The Macintosh is a Communist plot. I think I have heard that one before. > > And M$ has no dealings wit these Reds. Sure... > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
Funny how all the mac fan boi press are keen observers. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:42 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Jul 31, 2009, at 8:39 AM, Business Her Way wrote: > > John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain around the > concept of quality. > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
I think yer in the wrong class...phych 101 is down the hall. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:37 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: > >> Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to >> own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep >> trying. >> > > PSYCH 101: The most wretched and oppressed are often the ones who cling > tightest to the belief that this is the way the world is supposed to be. > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: In addition, Apple outsources the bulk of its production to China. You can do your own political calculations with that. The Macintosh is a Communist plot. I think I have heard that one before. And M$ has no dealings wit these Reds. Sure... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
On Jul 31, 2009, at 8:39 AM, Business Her Way wrote: http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/microsofts_long_slow_decline John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain around the concept of quality. On reflection I'm thinking the "Laptop Hunters" ads may be a M$ suicide note. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep trying. PSYCH 101: The most wretched and oppressed are often the ones who cling tightest to the belief that this is the way the world is supposed to be. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep trying. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:00 AM, TPiwowar wrote: > On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: > >> Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. But >> logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go >> after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after >> the >> one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. >> As >> has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by >> design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. >> > > 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is a > direct and simple explanation? > > People find potential problems in all operating systems and manufacturers > issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell the > difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets > compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the > wild. As I mentioned earlier, the "I Love You" virus was huge and it was > written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not > genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. > > 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. > > Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is > open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. Etc. > Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not "security by > obscurity" it is security by good engineering. > > I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon "birthers" and I could > not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and > obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it "no-nothing > evasion" and "seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments." I could not > have said it better. > > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. But logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after the one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. As has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is a direct and simple explanation? People find potential problems in all operating systems and manufacturers issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell the difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the wild. As I mentioned earlier, the "I Love You" virus was huge and it was written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. Etc. Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not "security by obscurity" it is security by good engineering. I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon "birthers" and I could not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it "no- nothing evasion" and "seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments." I could not have said it better. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. But logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after the one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. As has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:51 PM, TPiwowar wrote: > > > What "security failures." Should you truthfully be calling it "discovery of > potential flaws?" It ain't a "security failure" if it hasn't been exploited > and it hasn't. Just like you are potentially deceased, but I'm sure you > don't want us to consider you dead. By your faulty logic we are all dead > already. > > ...as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target... >> > > This is more faulty logic. Products with large market shares do not have to > be defective. You use one company, M$, as your model and come up with wild > assertions. You are not thinking straight. > > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Don't know why you listen to him we don't. Stewart At 02:51 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote: On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: And, let us not be so smug- the reports over the past two days of significant security failures in Macs, iPhones, and iPods means that as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target and its inherent flaws will force the (heretofore smug) users of these devices to update and add security (antivirus, antispam, and personal security firewalls) to preclude the loss/damage of private information. Eschew Obfuscation Looks like a case of "Obfuscation" to me. What "security failures." Should you truthfully be calling it "discovery of potential flaws?" It ain't a "security failure" if it hasn't been exploited and it hasn't. Just like you are potentially deceased, but I'm sure you don't want us to consider you dead. By your faulty logic we are all dead already. ...as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target... This is more faulty logic. Products with large market shares do not have to be defective. You use one company, M$, as your model and come up with wild assertions. You are not thinking straight. the (heretofore smug) users "Smug" carries too much baggage to be accurate. "Smug" implies excessive pride. Mac users pride is hard earned and based on real achievement. Only someone with an excessive Windows inferiority complex would use the word "smug." Speaking of having an excessive Windows inferiority complex, did you catch the Ballmer anti-Apple tirade... http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2009/07/31/ballmer-skeptical-of- apple-share-gains/ "Share versus Apple, you know, we think we may have ticked up a little tick, but when you get right down to it, it's a rounding error," he said. "Apple's share change, plus or minus from ours, they took a little share a couple quarters, we took share back a couple quarters. But Apple's share globally cost us nothing. Now, hopefully, we will take share back from Apple, but you know, Apple still only sells about 10 million PCs, so it is a limited opportunity." *** Shipments of Apple's Mac PCs rose 4 percent in the June quarter, while the global PC market shrank 5 percent, according to Gartner. *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: And, let us not be so smug- the reports over the past two days of significant security failures in Macs, iPhones, and iPods means that as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target and its inherent flaws will force the (heretofore smug) users of these devices to update and add security (antivirus, antispam, and personal security firewalls) to preclude the loss/damage of private information. Eschew Obfuscation Looks like a case of "Obfuscation" to me. What "security failures." Should you truthfully be calling it "discovery of potential flaws?" It ain't a "security failure" if it hasn't been exploited and it hasn't. Just like you are potentially deceased, but I'm sure you don't want us to consider you dead. By your faulty logic we are all dead already. ...as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target... This is more faulty logic. Products with large market shares do not have to be defective. You use one company, M$, as your model and come up with wild assertions. You are not thinking straight. the (heretofore smug) users "Smug" carries too much baggage to be accurate. "Smug" implies excessive pride. Mac users pride is hard earned and based on real achievement. Only someone with an excessive Windows inferiority complex would use the word "smug." Speaking of having an excessive Windows inferiority complex, did you catch the Ballmer anti-Apple tirade... http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2009/07/31/ballmer-skeptical-of- apple-share-gains/ “Share versus Apple, you know, we think we may have ticked up a little tick, but when you get right down to it, it’s a rounding error,” he said. “Apple’s share change, plus or minus from ours, they took a little share a couple quarters, we took share back a couple quarters. But Apple’s share globally cost us nothing. Now, hopefully, we will take share back from Apple, but you know, Apple still only sells about 10 million PCs, so it is a limited opportunity.” *** Shipments of Apple’s Mac PCs rose 4 percent in the June quarter, while the global PC market shrank 5 percent, according to Gartner. *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: > But computer sales are > not what you thought they were for Apple. I am a user of Apple computers for a long time. I have never used, on any daily basis, a Windows machine. However, I am not an advocate of Apple Corp. doing everything it can do to increase its sales of desktop and laptop computers. Obvioulsy, I do not own stock in that company. As you have pointed out, Apple's low market share in the realm of computers has helped prevent the platform from becoming a major target for evil-doers, and that suits me just fine. I do not predicate my affinity for Macintosh computers upon their popularity in the general marketplace, and were Macintosh computers to gain, by leaps and bounds, far greater market penetration, the only effect it would have upon me would be increased worry about malicious code infecting my equipment. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
I am not being an apologist for MSFT. They have done many things wrong- including the concept of selling 5 different versions of Vista and 7, and screwing up Windows Mobile. However, to compare an Apple with a Microsoft is not totally correct. That would be equivalent to comparing Sherwin Williams with Punte Home Builders. One provides something necessary for homes; the other provides the whole home- with many subcontractors. In addition, Apple outsources the bulk of its production to China. You can do your own political calculations with that. More- over the past three years, PC Manufacturers have made concerted efforts to lower the price of their desktops and (especially) laptops- whether due to competition or market is immaterial for this analysis. It explains the changes to Dell, the disappearance of also-ran vendors (who are by and large part of Acer nowadays). So, if the desire of the manufacturer was increased volume at lower unit sales price (notice that laptops no longer use specialized components and are serviceable by almost anyone), the fact that Apple never lowered its prices would guarantee that the sales percentage increases. Now, a dose of reality (it's called examining the 10Q, 8K submitted to the government and their stockholders) shows that gross sales of Macs (laptops and desktops) as a gross number has decreased over the past year by some 8% or more. And, that was before the much ballyhooed price drop (which is a reflection of the information gleaned from the paragraph above). The growth in Apple sales has been due to iPhone and iPod. I salute that performance- it's what companies need to do to grow and survive in the marketplace. (Hey, MSFT wake the up- and Xbox is NOT the answer.) But computer sales are not what you thought they were for Apple. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
And, let us not be so smug- the reports over the past two days of significant security failures in Macs, iPhones, and iPods means that as Apple market share augments, its desirability as a target and its inherent flaws will force the (heretofore smug) users of these devices to update and add security (antivirus, antispam, and personal security firewalls) to preclude the loss/damage of private information. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax >From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/microsofts_long_slow_decline * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
