Re: [CGUYS] the moon
The cost-effectiveness of manned space travel plummets once one goes much beyond low earth orbit. The risks to the travelers goes up exponentially as well. When one considers that the field of robotics is advancing at a steepening curve plus the risk factors inherent in manned space flight, it is clear that robotic space flight to distant targets is the only rational way to plan any near-term space exploration. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Energy is only as free as the technology to capture and distribute it. The advantages in manufacturing are cancelled out by the costs. Are the corporations that want to use microgravity for production going to absorb all the risks? Or is this yet another example of socializing risk with federal investment in RD and privatizing the profits? Uh oh. That gets us back to what's wrong with health insurance legislation. Robots are as smart as the scientists who design them. Robots have done well for us so far. Patience with the slow rate of advances for human space travel will make travel safer and more productive in the long run. Research now--travel later. I have a ticket for travel to Mars that I got years ago at Cape Canaveral. I'll send it to you if I can find it. Ready for a trip to Mars? Imagine riding a bicycle on Mars! [The ticket for a flight to the moon expired 10 years ago.] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
I find it so disappointing hot short sighted logic and well meaning people can be. DB, I'm going to pull a Star Trek reverence on you, but you're a Vulcan. It's going to take you thousands of years to figure out you need or even how to wipe your butt. To dangerous and doesn't figure in with the science. Doing great things requires great risk. I'm guessing you didn't really pay much attention in history class. I guess it really comes to where you want your kids an future relatives to be. Should they stay on a slow but basic stagnic course to future extingsion? I'm ignoring spelling. Or should they strive for more? Damn the logic and get human and go for it. If you're human, it makes you who you are. Now to the question of who pays for it. We all pay for it in the end. And we all benefit in the end. Of course this depends on you definition of benefiting. Would you rather be chipping spear heads? Growing up means realizing everything comes with a cost. Should we outlaw the internet today? It has cost so may people so much. On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:11 PM, db wrote: Yeh ... let private industry develop this new manned space flight. And why won't they just do that on their own if it is such a great deal? Because these private corps and their stockholders want the rest of us ... the taxpayers without bankruptcy protection who are just trying to hang on to our mortgages/ pay for medical care etc ... to pay all the setup costs so then they can't make a profit. Such a deal! Just like the ones military industrial complex and medical insurance industry rams down our throats. Come back from outer space. We've got to get back to basics in this country and postpone some of the things we want to do ... have been used to doing ... until we have our house in order. This country has itself mortgaged to the hilt ... is totally dependent on foreign competing nations for the security of it's economy and it still has an ANOTHER unseen mortgage of international trade being conducted in US dollars that is likely to come due if we don't get real and start living by our means. It's to our advantage that trade is in dollars and increasingly with our economic slide to other nations disadvantage. If we don't get our finances on solid footing again, the money making countries will be adopting a different currency of exchange and our system will take another HUGE dive once no one wants dollars anymore. We in the US need to turn our attention from outer space to inner space for a while or suffer the consequences me thinks... Go to Mars when we've got affairs on Earth on solid footing again... db This BS system of corps using us b_s-wilk wrote: Energy is only as free as the technology to capture and distribute it. The advantages in manufacturing are cancelled out by the costs. Are the corporations that want to use microgravity for production going to absorb all the risks? Or is this yet another example of socializing risk with federal investment in RD and privatizing the profits? Uh oh. That gets us back to what's wrong with health insurance legislation. Robots are as smart as the scientists who design them. Robots have done well for us so far. Patience with the slow rate of advances for human space travel will make travel safer and more productive in the long run. Research now--travel later. I have a ticket for travel to Mars that I got years ago at Cape Canaveral. I'll send it to you if I can find it. Ready for a trip to Mars? Imagine riding a bicycle on Mars! [The ticket for a flight to the moon expired 10 years ago.] Microgravity offers real advanages in alloy and semiconductor maufacturing, also pharmaceuticals. We now know how to construct large structures in orbit and maintain a long term presence in space. Energy is unlimited and free. Four nations/national consortia can boost cargo into orbit and to the station assuming JAXA's HTV is successful. I see the potential as enormous. But we have to be there to realize it. The ISS is a good start. If we look at it as a platform for the assembly of space-only ships, and as a fuel transfer point, we could explore the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. The moon is probably not a good idea if we can't prove the presence of water. Robots aren't smart enough to do it all, and if we look at this new frontier as a government monopoly we are shortchanging ourselves. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * ** *** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness,
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Jeff, We took our risks and lost... the wreckage is fairly visible all around us and will become more soberingly evident with time. If you think Asia is sleeping while we dither about our problems, you are naive. Last I heard their growth rate is currently 8% while ours is negative. The space exploration you are talking about is going to be done but as it seems now... not by us... probably by the Chinese because they have the money and income to pay for it and make that very long term exploratory investment. Unless we fix our economic engine... so it provides real and substantial income for the nation as a whole... we won't and shouldn't be allowing any sectors to have essentially their carte blanche way with substantial parts of our budget for purposes of their self betterment at our expense and indebtedness. Not the military, not the insurance companies and not the space program. If we continue to allow those massive drains on our system without getting our economic house in order first, America won't be leading anything in the 21st century except its entry onto the rolls of history of failed world powers. Why and how do you think past failed world powers relinquished their power and wealth? They didn't decide to give up ... they just were stuck with outmoded images and expectations of themselves and so made poor, foolish out-of-touch decisions and investments exactly when competing upcoming powers were making practical and empowering ones. So they got beat and replaced by those who focused and took hold of the basic implements of power. The space program is not a basic implement of power... it's a wonderful symptom and benefit of power and wealth ... if you've got it. We presently don't. When home owning, basic health insurance and our national security are all being severely tested and at major risk, it's not the time to be committing a major part of our bankrupt national budget (money we don't have) to outer space. Unless you happen to be in the space industry and of course would like money from us... Or unless you want to give Asia another implement to sink us with... Money we borrow from them is money they will use to control our future for their benefit. Get real! My 3 bits... db Jeff Miles wrote: I find it so disappointing hot short sighted logic and well meaning people can be. DB, I'm going to pull a Star Trek reverence on you, but you're a Vulcan. It's going to take you thousands of years to figure out you need or even how to wipe your butt. To dangerous and doesn't figure in with the science. Doing great things requires great risk. I'm guessing you didn't really pay much attention in history class. I guess it really comes to where you want your kids an future relatives to be. Should they stay on a slow but basic stagnic course to future extingsion? I'm ignoring spelling. Or should they strive for more? Damn the logic and get human and go for it. If you're human, it makes you who you are. Now to the question of who pays for it. We all pay for it in the end. And we all benefit in the end. Of course this depends on you definition of benefiting. Would you rather be chipping spear heads? Growing up means realizing everything comes with a cost. Should we outlaw the internet today? It has cost so may people so much. On Sep 14, 2009, at 6:11 PM, db wrote: Yeh ... let private industry develop this new manned space flight. And why won't they just do that on their own if it is such a great deal? Because these private corps and their stockholders want the rest of us ... the taxpayers without bankruptcy protection who are just trying to hang on to our mortgages/ pay for medical care etc ... to pay all the setup costs so then they can't make a profit. Such a deal! Just like the ones military industrial complex and medical insurance industry rams down our throats. Come back from outer space. We've got to get back to basics in this country and postpone some of the things we want to do ... have been used to doing ... until we have our house in order. This country has itself mortgaged to the hilt ... is totally dependent on foreign competing nations for the security of it's economy and it still has an ANOTHER unseen mortgage of international trade being conducted in US dollars that is likely to come due if we don't get real and start living by our means. It's to our advantage that trade is in dollars and increasingly with our economic slide to other nations disadvantage. If we don't get our finances on solid footing again, the money making countries will be adopting a different currency of exchange and our system will take another HUGE dive once no one wants dollars anymore. We in the US need to turn our attention from outer space to inner space for a while or suffer the consequences me thinks... Go to Mars when we've got affairs on Earth on solid footing again... db This
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Energy is only as free as the technology to capture and distribute it. The advantages in manufacturing are cancelled out by the costs. Are the corporations that want to use microgravity for production going to absorb all the risks? Or is this yet another example of socializing risk with federal investment in RD and privatizing the profits? Uh oh. That gets us back to what's wrong with health insurance legislation. Robots are as smart as the scientists who design them. Robots have done well for us so far. Patience with the slow rate of advances for human space travel will make travel safer and more productive in the long run. Research now--travel later. I have a ticket for travel to Mars that I got years ago at Cape Canaveral. I'll send it to you if I can find it. Ready for a trip to Mars? Imagine riding a bicycle on Mars! [The ticket for a flight to the moon expired 10 years ago.] Microgravity offers real advanages in alloy and semiconductor maufacturing, also pharmaceuticals. We now know how to construct large structures in orbit and maintain a long term presence in space. Energy is unlimited and free. Four nations/national consortia can boost cargo into orbit and to the station assuming JAXA's HTV is successful. I see the potential as enormous. But we have to be there to realize it. The ISS is a good start. If we look at it as a platform for the assembly of space-only ships, and as a fuel transfer point, we could explore the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. The moon is probably not a good idea if we can't prove the presence of water. Robots aren't smart enough to do it all, and if we look at this new frontier as a government monopoly we are shortchanging ourselves. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yeh ... let private industry develop this new manned space flight. And why won't they just do that on their own if it is such a great deal? Because these private corps and their stockholders want the rest of us ... the taxpayers without bankruptcy protection who are just trying to hang on to our mortgages/ pay for medical care etc ... to pay all the setup costs so then they can't make a profit. Such a deal! Just like the ones military industrial complex and medical insurance industry rams down our throats. Come back from outer space. We've got to get back to basics in this country and postpone some of the things we want to do ... have been used to doing ... until we have our house in order. This country has itself mortgaged to the hilt ... is totally dependent on foreign competing nations for the security of it's economy and it still has an ANOTHER unseen mortgage of international trade being conducted in US dollars that is likely to come due if we don't get real and start living by our means. It's to our advantage that trade is in dollars and increasingly with our economic slide to other nations disadvantage. If we don't get our finances on solid footing again, the money making countries will be adopting a different currency of exchange and our system will take another HUGE dive once no one wants dollars anymore. We in the US need to turn our attention from outer space to inner space for a while or suffer the consequences me thinks... Go to Mars when we've got affairs on Earth on solid footing again... db This BS system of corps using us b_s-wilk wrote: Energy is only as free as the technology to capture and distribute it. The advantages in manufacturing are cancelled out by the costs. Are the corporations that want to use microgravity for production going to absorb all the risks? Or is this yet another example of socializing risk with federal investment in RD and privatizing the profits? Uh oh. That gets us back to what's wrong with health insurance legislation. Robots are as smart as the scientists who design them. Robots have done well for us so far. Patience with the slow rate of advances for human space travel will make travel safer and more productive in the long run. Research now--travel later. I have a ticket for travel to Mars that I got years ago at Cape Canaveral. I'll send it to you if I can find it. Ready for a trip to Mars? Imagine riding a bicycle on Mars! [The ticket for a flight to the moon expired 10 years ago.] Microgravity offers real advanages in alloy and semiconductor maufacturing, also pharmaceuticals. We now know how to construct large structures in orbit and maintain a long term presence in space. Energy is unlimited and free. Four nations/national consortia can boost cargo into orbit and to the station assuming JAXA's HTV is successful. I see the potential as enormous. But we have to be there to realize it. The ISS is a good start. If we look at it as a platform for the assembly of space-only ships, and as a fuel transfer point, we could explore the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. The moon is probably not a good idea if we can't prove the presence of water. Robots aren't smart enough to do it all, and if we look at this new frontier as a government monopoly we are shortchanging ourselves. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Ready for a trip to Mars? Imagine riding a bicycle on Mars! Uh, I've ridden on the Champs de Mars, does that count? Oh, yeah, I'll take the ticket :-). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
That's if the country had the money or income stream to pay for manned spaceflight. We're the world's biggest debtor nation of all time, our creditors are nervous as cats on a hot time roof since the crash ... not liking what they now see nor the amount of our debt they are carrying and we don't even know how we can put the genie back in the bottle and get the balance of trade revenue ... that made us the 20th century's richest nation ... positive again. Asia has gotten to the development point that they can now drive their growth and dominance simply by investing in themselves / Asia and manufacture for the rest of the world secondarily. They are now the world's biggest market and they now have the tools and capital to drive their own economies. There's never a shortage of good things to do that people and nations can't afford. In the 21st century, if we don't focus as a nation on using what we have to get ourselves back in the world economic / power game, we risk becoming a 3rd rate power who won't have the resources for Moon shots etc anyway. If we continue in this oblivious direction, there is shortly coming a point as a nation the US won't be able to borrow much of anything for anything... no less incredibly expensive manned space flight to moons and other planets. With such US manned space flights, I think we're talking about champagne tastes on a beer budget db Eric S. Sande wrote: Like what? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's a serious question. I've yet to read about any really important research that is going on in the space station and that couldn't be done any other way. Microgravity offers real advanages in alloy and semiconductor maufacturing, also pharmaceuticals. We now know how to construct large structures in orbit and maintain a long term presence in space. Energy is unlimited and free. Four nations/national consortia can boost cargo into orbit and to the station assuming JAXA's HTV is successful. I see the potential as enormous. But we have to be there to realize it. The ISS is a good start. If we look at it as a platform for the assembly of space-only ships, and as a fuel transfer point, we could explore the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. The moon is probably not a good idea if we can't prove the presence of water. Robots aren't smart enough to do it all, and if we look at this new frontier as a government monopoly we are shortchanging ourselves. Just my opinion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
With such US manned space flights, I think we're talking about champagne tastes on a beer budget You make good points. But it is not productive to say what we CAN'T do. We have this huge pool of resources sitting just beyond our local gravity well, and we're one of two nations that can get to it. Asia (well, China and India, I don't count Japan) may have made huge ecomomic strides, but at the cost of poisoning themselves in the process. The government can do only so much. NASA has a miniscule ($18B) budget compared to the amount of money that got pissed away on the various stimulus packages. Disproportionate, in my view, because the exploration (and exploitation) of space represents the best hope for economic revitalization that we have. Let's play to our strengths, we clearly can't build cars and t-shits better or cheaper, lets build what we build best. Innovative solutions to leverage resources. There's a reason I mentioned the Lagrangian points. They are easy to get to, they don't present the gravity well issues of the Moon or Mars, and they are packed with (potentially) useful raw materials. This isn't a secret. When we talk about space we generally think in terms of exploration, well we can explore with robots. But we can't exploit without people. It's there. We have the technology to make it happen. It won't be easy, but it can be done. And it isn't NASA that's going to do it, it's up to Lockheed, Boeing, and General Electric (and maybe Ford) to do it. They need a mission and a plan. They understand the relationship of investment to profit. To those who say that the time is not now, I say this is the best time. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
We don't own it. I think it's called the ISS for a reason. Hell, the Russians are broke and seem to be docking there more often then we are. Yes, but as long as Russia is the gas station for western Europe believe me they aren't broke. We (the US) paid for Zarya because we could get it cheap as we didn't want to pay for Lockheed to build it. ALL of the the significant pieces of the ISS were paid for by the US taxpayer, in terms of lift costs (the shuttle program). That's OK, we can afford it. And there isn't anything wrong with leveraging our technology for the benefit of mankind. Our butts are going to be in a bad situation when we close down the shuttle and the only manned transport option is Soyuz. We forced them into the TMA design because the TM design was not to NASA standards. And they'll want payback on that. This is ALL politics. We can't get Ares/Orion off the pad fast enough, at this point. And at that, it's only a rough parity of an existing known reliable system. This would be a good time to look at extending the shuttle program, I know it's past its prime and it has all ready killed fourteen astronauts and two vehicles. And it's expensive as hell. But it is the only man-rated (hah) vehicle we have right now. But we know how to run it. I mean we have 3 out of 5 still flying. Things like the ISS and human spaceflight don't come cheap. This is what JFK called ...the things that are hard... But I seriously doubt that anybody whose name is on this list, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0114.shtml would argue that that it wasn't worthwhile. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
OK, the orbit is too low, but it's an asset to be leveraged. We may not have the technology or the will for a manned Mars landing, but just having a 24x7x365.25 platform is good. There are a lot of worthwhile exploration opportunities. Like what? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's a serious question. I've yet to read about any really important research that is going on in the space station and that couldn't be done any other way. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yeh ... and the US announced something er other about wanting to shut the Space Station down in 2015 ... a mere years after completion so we can pay for manned missions going back to the moon or to Mars or just wandering around out in space...Why would that be? ...Anybody notice a striking commonality between developing brand new manned space missions/military hardware, starting new wars, and keeping our current insurance companies in charge of our national health? ...Could it possibly be cost-plus unregulated pricing and profits in a time when most all other American business is sucking wind/getting clobbered by the foreign competition?. The Augustine Commission is assessing the status of NASA's human spaceflight program; Norman Augustine was president of Lockheed Marting and former Secretary of the Army. According to physicist Dr. Robert Park of UMd and the American Physical Society: ...The Coalition for Space Exploration issued a statement on Wednesday praising the Augustine Commission. That's a very bad sign. The Coalition is a space-industry lobby; it pushes for space exploration by humans, ruling out the universe beyond Mars. That is totally inappropriate for the modern space age, but it costs a lot more, and spending more is what the Coalition for Space Exploration is about... The space shuttle Discovery landed last night in California. One of the astronauts was required to be carried out on a stretcher because of the physical toll of being in space for two months. Imagine how bad the astronauts' physical conditions will be when the are sent on a two year trip to Mars. We're not ready for long-distance human travel beyond Earth and the moon. Robots are. They're cheaper, stronger, more effective, don't need food or companionship, don't need the COLBERT treadmill, do their work, follow directions. Money can be spent more effectively developing and improving technology and medical/physical outcomes before considering human space travel to another planet. It's not time, yet. Plan ahead--do it right. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
On Sep 12, 2009, at 7:13 AM Sep 12, Chris Dunford wrote: Like what? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's a serious question. I've yet to read about any really important research that is going on in the space station and that couldn't be done any other way. Isn't this just another socialist boondoggle? Should not space be left for the likes of Disney, Virgin, Microsoft, and the Sirius Cybernetic Company? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
According to physicist Dr. Robert Park of UMd and the American Physical Society: You beat me to it. I was just about to post this. If, God forbid, a terrorist someday forces me to put on a Terps sweatshirt, I will be able to resist giving up the goods by telling myself that I'm wearing it in support of Bob Park. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Like what? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's a serious question. I've yet to read about any really important research that is going on in the space station and that couldn't be done any other way. Isn't this just another socialist boondoggle? Should not space be left for the likes of Disney, Virgin, Microsoft, and the Sirius Cybernetic Company? Yes. In fact, as a committed liberal I should be in favor of expanding our communist/fascist regime to the moon and Mars. We're all about control, you know. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com escribió: According to physicist Dr. Robert Park of UMd and the American Physical Society: You beat me to it. I was just about to post this. If, God forbid, a terrorist someday forces me to put on a Terps sweatshirt, I will be able to resist giving up the goods by telling myself that I'm wearing it in support of Bob Park. You a physicist or a Park fan--or both? I've subscribed to WN for about 10 years. You? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
According to physicist Dr. Robert Park of UMd and the American Physical Society: You beat me to it. I was just about to post this. If, God forbid, a terrorist someday forces me to put on a Terps sweatshirt, I will be able to resist giving up the goods by telling myself that I'm wearing it in support of Bob Park. You a physicist or a Park fan--or both? I've subscribed to WN for about 10 years. You? Just a Park fan. He is one studly scientist. :) Six or seven years, I guess. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Like what? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's a serious question. I've yet to read about any really important research that is going on in the space station and that couldn't be done any other way. Microgravity offers real advanages in alloy and semiconductor maufacturing, also pharmaceuticals. We now know how to construct large structures in orbit and maintain a long term presence in space. Energy is unlimited and free. Four nations/national consortia can boost cargo into orbit and to the station assuming JAXA's HTV is successful. I see the potential as enormous. But we have to be there to realize it. The ISS is a good start. If we look at it as a platform for the assembly of space-only ships, and as a fuel transfer point, we could explore the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. The moon is probably not a good idea if we can't prove the presence of water. Robots aren't smart enough to do it all, and if we look at this new frontier as a government monopoly we are shortchanging ourselves. Just my opinion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Are you sure about this? I know it takes 20+ minutes to send a command to the rovers, but I also was sure they just sat there till they got those commands. Computers aren't at all bright. I wouldn't trust a multi-million dollar space rover to Windows? I wouldn't even trust it to a Mac. From what I understood, every command had to be sent from Earth. No commands received and they just sat there. I do follow them from the NASA website. I'm a space junkie. Where's my booster pipe? I also have the NASA channel playing most every day. That is until it goes into reruns and I move over to the History channels. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:00 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Wow, when did Spirit and Opportunity learn to work on their own? I wonder if the people who get paid to drive them know this. If they are working on there own, what do you think they're thinking? There's a rock, let's flip it over. Or maybe, damn it's dusty today. Or maybe, Hey Opportunity, find anything interesting yet? Nope, I got stuck in a crater for a bit though. Speaking of that, hows the foot? Oh, what a drag. Yes, Jeff, the Mars rovers have been programmed to do simple analyses of their situation and environment. Since it takes something like 20 minutes for a command to be sent from the Earth to Mars, the rovers could fall off a cliff if they weren't programmed to recognize local conditions and proceed with caution. One or both of them got stuck in sand and had to maneuver in order to get out. Opportunity is now at the edge of a huge crater, descending to take samples. Could be more treacherous if it couldn't maneuver without direct orders from JPL. NASA channel has videos from Mars fairly often. So cool. Almost like being there. http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/video/spirit01.html http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/video/opportunity01.html Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space. In addition to GPS, weather satellites, and warnings of solar flares [which, if large enough, can fry your iPod, your computer, and the entire electrical grid], the space program can warn about continent-killing asteroids. And, if we do enough research NOW, we can deflect the asteroid before it wipes out the entire eastern U.S. (or some other unlucky region) and plunges the world into something resembling nuclear winter. For example, check out this zippy presentation about an asteroid that's going to be very, VERY near earth in 2029 and 2036: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/planetdefense/ For a more scientific treatment, try this webpage: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/apophis/ AFAIK, the only telescope that's capable of tracking near-earth asteroids is the big one at Arecibo, and it's having trouble getting funded. This is just one example of congressmen who want brownie points for cutting unnecessary spending, being penny-wise and pound foolish.Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. And why only three people? Because some congressman back in 2001 or so decided he would save big bucks by cutting funding for the space lifeboat that would carry a larger crew to safety, if anything went seriously wrong with the space station. The only way to get the crew off now in an emergency is by a Russian Soyuz capsule. Maximum capacity: three people. So there is a skeleton crew of three on the space station, and that's just about enough for basic maintenance and housekeeping. A three-person crew is not, however, enough for doing a lot of science, which was the basic reason for having the space station in the first place. I have family and friends working at NASA, and boy do I hear about this kind of thing. When funding gets approved for a given project, the scientists and technicians go at it hell-for-leather, in an attempt to get the project off the ground--literally--before the funding gets cut by some grandstanding congressman who's trying to get reelected. BOTTOM LINE: If you like your GPS or your weather forecasts, better let your congressman and senators know. Otherwise, the GPS may go bye-bye. And if funding for tracking and for R D to deflect near-earth asteroids gets cut, YOU might not be around long enough to miss it. P.S.: Spirit and Opportunity are not self-guiding, decision-making robots. They are operated from earth. The next generation of landers will have more advanced robotics on board--if the funding doesn't get cut. --Constance Warner * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space Constance, I might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone disagreeing with this. The disagreement is about the manned space program... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Well, my main point was that you really need to tell your congressperson and senators that you want GPS and other space programs to continue. If not, they will go away. (And we will all go away if, in 2036, the asteroid turns out to be headed straight for earth and we haven't spent the money to figure out how to deflect it and we haven't built the hardware to go up there and actually do it.) NASA is heavily dependent on political factors to get the funding for basic programs that you would think would need no justification. Like the national parks, they are chronically underfunded. (You would think that funding the national parks is another no-brainer, but they've suffered greatly during the last 8 years, and they weren't exactly rolling in the dough before that.) And I DO think the manned space program is important. I hope NASA-- or someone else--gets the funding to do the basic research to make more manned space flight possible, to the moon and and beyond. (For example, I've heard of work on an engine that would get to Mars in less than a quarter of a time than current hardware could. It's a step in the right direction.) Robots are great, but they are no substitute for humans. --Constance Warner On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Chris Dunford wrote: Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space Constance, I might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone disagreeing with this. The disagreement is about the manned space program... ** *** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** ** *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
http://fora.tv/2009/02/04/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson_The_Pluto_Files#fullprogram Chapter 18 is especially interesting. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Constance Warner cawar...@his.com wrote: Well, my main point was that you really need to tell your congressperson and senators that you want GPS and other space programs to continue. If not, they will go away. (And we will all go away if, in 2036, the asteroid turns out to be headed straight for earth and we haven't spent the money to figure out how to deflect it and we haven't built the hardware to go up there and actually do it.) NASA is heavily dependent on political factors to get the funding for basic programs that you would think would need no justification. Like the national parks, they are chronically underfunded. (You would think that funding the national parks is another no-brainer, but they've suffered greatly during the last 8 years, and they weren't exactly rolling in the dough before that.) And I DO think the manned space program is important. I hope NASA--or someone else--gets the funding to do the basic research to make more manned space flight possible, to the moon and and beyond. (For example, I've heard of work on an engine that would get to Mars in less than a quarter of a time than current hardware could. It's a step in the right direction.) Robots are great, but they are no substitute for humans. --Constance Warner On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Chris Dunford wrote: Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space Constance, I might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone disagreeing with this. The disagreement is about the manned space program... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space. In addition to GPS, weather satellites, and warnings of solar flares [which, if large enough, can fry your iPod, your computer, and the entire electrical grid], the space program can warn about continent-killing asteroids. And, if we do enough research NOW, we can deflect the asteroid before it wipes out the entire eastern U.S. (or some other unlucky region) and plunges the world into something resembling nuclear winter. It doesn't take people being launched into space to protect us from asteroids. We can develop the technology to do it with robotics and rockets. Or we can launch someone to ride the asteroid, like the bomb in Dr. Strangelove. I can think of several people who would love to do that. Can an EMP fry my iPod? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon [and solar flares]
I wouldn't bet on an iPod, or any other electronic device, working after an EMP in the vicinity. A solar flare, however, is a different kettle of fish. A historical case: in 1859, an unusually intense solar flare (the Carrington Event) induced high voltage in telegraph wires, disrupting the entire system, world-wide: sparks flew out of telegraph terminals and paper next to the terminals caught on fire. A lesser solar flare burned out transformers all over Quebec in 1989. A Carrington Event today would burn out EVERY transformer in the country, bringing the electrical grid to a screeching halt. The grid would not work again until the transformers were replaced, which would take months. Solar flares can also damage or destroy satellites--including GPS and communications satellites. There's one satellite--the Advanced Composition Explorer--that would give us 15 minutes of warning to another Carrington Event, but it's 11 years old and past its planned life span. (Of course, we would need some kind of emergency plan to shut off all transformers to save them; but if we didn't have the satellite to give 15 minutes of warning, no emergency plan would be possible.) I hate to sound like a broken record, but WRITE YOUR CONGRESSPERSONS and tell them that you want the space program to get funded. Without political support, the space program--or the good parts of it, anyway--will go away. You can also join the Planetary Society or similar associations, and be part of a group that keeps the pressure on. --Constance On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:17 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space. In addition to GPS, weather satellites, and warnings of solar flares [which, if large enough, can fry your iPod, your computer, and the entire electrical grid], the space program can warn about continent-killing asteroids. And, if we do enough research NOW, we can deflect the asteroid before it wipes out the entire eastern U.S. (or some other unlucky region) and plunges the world into something resembling nuclear winter. It doesn't take people being launched into space to protect us from asteroids. We can develop the technology to do it with robotics and rockets. Or we can launch someone to ride the asteroid, like the bomb in Dr. Strangelove. I can think of several people who would love to do that. Can an EMP fry my iPod? ** *** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** ** *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
I used to have a site for that engine bookmarked, but I can't find it now. And I can't remember what it's called so I can't search for it. But from what I remember they almost had it completed and were in the testing phase. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Constance Warner wrote: Well, my main point was that you really need to tell your congressperson and senators that you want GPS and other space programs to continue. If not, they will go away. (And we will all go away if, in 2036, the asteroid turns out to be headed straight for earth and we haven't spent the money to figure out how to deflect it and we haven't built the hardware to go up there and actually do it.) NASA is heavily dependent on political factors to get the funding for basic programs that you would think would need no justification. Like the national parks, they are chronically underfunded. (You would think that funding the national parks is another no-brainer, but they've suffered greatly during the last 8 years, and they weren't exactly rolling in the dough before that.) And I DO think the manned space program is important. I hope NASA-- or someone else--gets the funding to do the basic research to make more manned space flight possible, to the moon and and beyond. (For example, I've heard of work on an engine that would get to Mars in less than a quarter of a time than current hardware could. It's a step in the right direction.) Robots are great, but they are no substitute for humans. --Constance Warner On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Chris Dunford wrote: Actually, there are quite a few reasons to be in space Constance, I might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone disagreeing with this. The disagreement is about the manned space program... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. Up to six now. There are currently two Soyuz spacecraft on station at a given time, since May 29, 2009. To be precise, TMA-14 and TMA-15 are docked at the Pirs nadir port and the Zarya nadir port respectively, and Progress 34P is docked at the Zvezda aft port. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
It's becoming one busy place. I've thought about what my great grandkids would think about our arguments over manned space flight. Do you think they'd be looking at us like we look at those who argued man wasn't meant to fly? Time seems to go by so fast. I was reminded of this when they brought that pilot back who was shot down in the gulf war. Was it really 19 years ago? Where did those 19 years go? Oh, Kodak quit making film and I'm now complaining about the cost of a terabyte external drive. 19 years ago I had a smuggled out from Micron a 1 megabyte wafer of chips about the size of a CD hanging from my car mirror. Now it's a joke. I miss the days of tubing down the river with a beer in one hand, straw grass in my mouth and getting burnt to a crisp. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. Up to six now. There are currently two Soyuz spacecraft on station at a given time, since May 29, 2009. To be precise, TMA-14 and TMA-15 are docked at the Pirs nadir port and the Zarya nadir port respectively, and Progress 34P is docked at the Zvezda aft port. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yeh ... and the US announced something er other about wanting to shut the Space Station down in 2015 ... a mere years after completion so we can pay for manned missions going back to the moon or to Mars or just wandering around out in space. Why would that be? Anybody notice a striking commonality between developing brand new manned space missions / military hardware, starting new wars, and keeping our current insurance companies in charge of our national health? Could it possibly be cost-plus unregulated pricing and profits in a time when most all other American business is sucking wind / getting clobbered by the foreign competition?. I know it just HAS to be a coincidence! Maintaining and improving existing systems and competing for market share ... how droll, boring and penny pinching. And worse yet everybody else knows something about it and looks over your shoulder or worse yet is in your face or already got there before we did. No money for reality when we're broke. BUT a good fantasy or something totally inexplicably fantastic... THAT we might borrow some more money for The Chinese will be glad to put it on our tab right? Or maybe we can walk on air and right on up there to the moon while we are at it! Why pay attention to laws of gravity when laws of economics obviously don't affect us?? Pardon my sarcasm. db Jeff Miles wrote: It's becoming one busy place. I've thought about what my great grandkids would think about our arguments over manned space flight. Do you think they'd be looking at us like we look at those who argued man wasn't meant to fly? Time seems to go by so fast. I was reminded of this when they brought that pilot back who was shot down in the gulf war. Was it really 19 years ago? Where did those 19 years go? Oh, Kodak quit making film and I'm now complaining about the cost of a terabyte external drive. 19 years ago I had a smuggled out from Micron a 1 megabyte wafer of chips about the size of a CD hanging from my car mirror. Now it's a joke. I miss the days of tubing down the river with a beer in one hand, straw grass in my mouth and getting burnt to a crisp. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. Up to six now. There are currently two Soyuz spacecraft on station at a given time, since May 29, 2009. To be precise, TMA-14 and TMA-15 are docked at the Pirs nadir port and the Zarya nadir port respectively, and Progress 34P is docked at the Zvezda aft port. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
I should have called that one ... Shoot the Moon ... go baby go ... roll those dice ! :) db db wrote: Yeh ... and the US announced something er other about wanting to shut the Space Station down in 2015 ... a mere years after completion so we can pay for manned missions going back to the moon or to Mars or just wandering around out in space. Why would that be? Anybody notice a striking commonality between developing brand new manned space missions / military hardware, starting new wars, and keeping our current insurance companies in charge of our national health? Could it possibly be cost-plus unregulated pricing and profits in a time when most all other American business is sucking wind / getting clobbered by the foreign competition?. I know it just HAS to be a coincidence! Maintaining and improving existing systems and competing for market share ... how droll, boring and penny pinching. And worse yet everybody else knows something about it and looks over your shoulder or worse yet is in your face or already got there before we did. No money for reality when we're broke. BUT a good fantasy or something totally inexplicably fantastic... THAT we might borrow some more money for The Chinese will be glad to put it on our tab right? Or maybe we can walk on air and right on up there to the moon while we are at it! Why pay attention to laws of gravity when laws of economics obviously don't affect us?? Pardon my sarcasm. db Jeff Miles wrote: It's becoming one busy place. I've thought about what my great grandkids would think about our arguments over manned space flight. Do you think they'd be looking at us like we look at those who argued man wasn't meant to fly? Time seems to go by so fast. I was reminded of this when they brought that pilot back who was shot down in the gulf war. Was it really 19 years ago? Where did those 19 years go? Oh, Kodak quit making film and I'm now complaining about the cost of a terabyte external drive. 19 years ago I had a smuggled out from Micron a 1 megabyte wafer of chips about the size of a CD hanging from my car mirror. Now it's a joke. I miss the days of tubing down the river with a beer in one hand, straw grass in my mouth and getting burnt to a crisp. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. Up to six now. There are currently two Soyuz spacecraft on station at a given time, since May 29, 2009. To be precise, TMA-14 and TMA-15 are docked at the Pirs nadir port and the Zarya nadir port respectively, and Progress 34P is docked at the Zvezda aft port. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
It's late and I'm tired so your sarcasm kind of went over my head. So with this post I'm not sure what your really think. But the us can't shut down the space station. We don't own it. I think it's called the ISS for a reason. Hell, the Russians are broke and seem to be docking there more often then we are. I'm really surprised Disney hasn't gotten into the manned space flight race. What an E ticket ride that would be. Oops, I'm dating myself. Can you imagine the little stand ups at the beginning of the line? You have to be this tall. Of course now they'd say you have to have 20 million dollars. Well there goes lunch and shopping in the afternoon. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:29 PM, db wrote: Yeh ... and the US announced something er other about wanting to shut the Space Station down in 2015 ... a mere years after completion so we can pay for manned missions going back to the moon or to Mars or just wandering around out in space. Why would that be? Anybody notice a striking commonality between developing brand new manned space missions / military hardware, starting new wars, and keeping our current insurance companies in charge of our national health? Could it possibly be cost-plus unregulated pricing and profits in a time when most all other American business is sucking wind / getting clobbered by the foreign competition?. I know it just HAS to be a coincidence! Maintaining and improving existing systems and competing for market share ... how droll, boring and penny pinching. And worse yet everybody else knows something about it and looks over your shoulder or worse yet is in your face or already got there before we did. No money for reality when we're broke. BUT a good fantasy or something totally inexplicably fantastic... THAT we might borrow some more money for The Chinese will be glad to put it on our tab right? Or maybe we can walk on air and right on up there to the moon while we are at it! Why pay attention to laws of gravity when laws of economics obviously don't affect us?? Pardon my sarcasm. db Jeff Miles wrote: It's becoming one busy place. I've thought about what my great grandkids would think about our arguments over manned space flight. Do you think they'd be looking at us like we look at those who argued man wasn't meant to fly? Time seems to go by so fast. I was reminded of this when they brought that pilot back who was shot down in the gulf war. Was it really 19 years ago? Where did those 19 years go? Oh, Kodak quit making film and I'm now complaining about the cost of a terabyte external drive. 19 years ago I had a smuggled out from Micron a 1 megabyte wafer of chips about the size of a CD hanging from my car mirror. Now it's a joke. I miss the days of tubing down the river with a beer in one hand, straw grass in my mouth and getting burnt to a crisp. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: Here's another example: the space station, where not much science is getting done by the three-person crew. Up to six now. There are currently two Soyuz spacecraft on station at a given time, since May 29, 2009. To be precise, TMA-14 and TMA-15 are docked at the Pirs nadir port and the Zarya nadir port respectively, and Progress 34P is docked at the Zvezda aft port. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yeh ... and the US announced something er other about wanting to shut the Space Station down in 2015... Ain't going to happen. The Russkies have the operations stuff down pat, they've got a LOT of on orbit expertise, and the ESA and JAXA have a lot of money invested in those labs. Now that the heavy lifting is tapering off and the construction phases are close to done, meaning a sizeable crew can be on station for extended periods, why not use it. It cost enough, it's there, and it's an excellent platform for on orbit construction. OK, the orbit is too low, but it's an asset to be leveraged. We may not have the technology or the will for a manned Mars landing, but just having a 24x7x365.25 platform is good. There are a lot of worthwhile exploration opportunities. With private ventures such as SpaceX starting to come on line we could make some money out of this. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/japan_htv_launch/ What have you done for me lately? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/ISS_STS-128_Zenith.jpg * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Constance Warner cawar...@his.com wrote: You might also remind your senators and your congressman that China and--surprisingly--India both have space programs and, among other goals, are aiming for the moon. I don't necessarily want the U.S. to do a land grab and claim the entire moon, but I don't want China to do it either. Legally, we cannot do this. Neither can China. Neither can about 97 other nations who are parties to the Outer Space Treaty. (Among other things, the moon could be a dandy gun platform, if an unfriendly government got hold of it. Not really. Although there have been scifi stories with this theme, they assume that you have a colony there already that has a mass driver already built. It is also in violation of the Outer Space Treaty, as an aside. But I'm willing to assume that someone who wants to use it as a weapon is willing to ignore that fact. But the problem is that you still have to deal with orbital mechanics and distance and that pesky lunar gravity. Not to mention that we'd have a pretty good idea if somebody tried to build a gun there and have a reasonable amount of time to do something about it. And, of course, the moon is the gateway to the rest of the solar system.) Well... um... no. Not in the way I think you mean, anyway. The moon is a good small step when it comes to a space program... but its a lousy gateway. Nobody would put a station there with the purpose of launching missions to the rest of the galaxy from it. It does not seem like a good environment for any industry whatsoever, so any launches would have to import both fuel and launch vehicle... and why bother with lunar gravity (even if it is smaller than Earth gravity) at all in that case? The gateway to the rest of the solar system is an orbiting space station and manufacturing facility. Yes, you still have to deal with the gravity well of getting parts and fuel up there, but you don't have the limitations of fitting an entire trip inside a single launch vehicle. $3 billion, which is a lot of money but pocket change when you look at the stimulus program, would put NASA's moon program [as well as other programs] back on track--it's dead in the water right now, for lack of funds. Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. As of this moment, it still is alive. However, a White House panel of experts has recommended canceling the moon plan in favor of other ways to get to Mars. I wish they'd recommended canceling the whole manned space program instead. It's staggeringly expensive and serves no clear purpose. Satellites and robots can do far more for far less. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yes, but sending a robot out has nowhere near the PR potential as a live person. And it's been done already. Besides, as a species, we can't actually say we walked there unless one of our feet hits the dirt. On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote: Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. As of this moment, it still is alive. However, a White House panel of experts has recommended canceling the moon plan in favor of other ways to get to Mars. I wish they'd recommended canceling the whole manned space program instead. It's staggeringly expensive and serves no clear purpose. Satellites and robots can do far more for far less. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Yes, but sending a robot out has nowhere near the PR potential as a live person. And it's been done already. Besides, as a species, we can't actually say we walked there unless one of our feet hits the dirt. So, like I said, no real purpose. :) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. As of this moment, it still is alive. However, a White House panel of experts has recommended canceling the moon plan in favor of other ways to get to Mars. I wish they'd recommended canceling the whole manned space program instead. It's staggeringly expensive and serves no clear purpose. Satellites and robots can do far more for far less. Spirit and Opportunity rovers have been on Mars for six years, since June/July 2003. They work on their own, make basic decisions on their own, send useful data back to the earth, don't complain, don't need food, clean themselves by finding dust devils. And Spirit has a broken wheel, is on low power due to lack of winter sunshine. http://marsrover.nasa.gov/overview/ Rovers were on a 90 day mission, now 6 years. Could humans do any better? Not likely. The next places to study are Europa or Titan, where you can't send people, but satellites provide plenty of good data. There's no scientific reason to send humans to space except maybe to repair satellites. But does it cost more for a space mission or to launch a new satellite [more space junk]? The technology isn't ready for a long mission with astronauts. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
By the way, I really liked James Cameron's idea. The whole capsule being a moon car. It lands, the wheels pop out and off you go. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Allen Firstenberg wrote: On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Constance Warner cawar...@his.com wrote: You might also remind your senators and your congressman that China and--surprisingly--India both have space programs and, among other goals, are aiming for the moon. I don't necessarily want the U.S. to do a land grab and claim the entire moon, but I don't want China to do it either. Legally, we cannot do this. Neither can China. Neither can about 97 other nations who are parties to the Outer Space Treaty. (Among other things, the moon could be a dandy gun platform, if an unfriendly government got hold of it. Not really. Although there have been scifi stories with this theme, they assume that you have a colony there already that has a mass driver already built. It is also in violation of the Outer Space Treaty, as an aside. But I'm willing to assume that someone who wants to use it as a weapon is willing to ignore that fact. But the problem is that you still have to deal with orbital mechanics and distance and that pesky lunar gravity. Not to mention that we'd have a pretty good idea if somebody tried to build a gun there and have a reasonable amount of time to do something about it. And, of course, the moon is the gateway to the rest of the solar system.) Well... um... no. Not in the way I think you mean, anyway. The moon is a good small step when it comes to a space program... but its a lousy gateway. Nobody would put a station there with the purpose of launching missions to the rest of the galaxy from it. It does not seem like a good environment for any industry whatsoever, so any launches would have to import both fuel and launch vehicle... and why bother with lunar gravity (even if it is smaller than Earth gravity) at all in that case? The gateway to the rest of the solar system is an orbiting space station and manufacturing facility. Yes, you still have to deal with the gravity well of getting parts and fuel up there, but you don't have the limitations of fitting an entire trip inside a single launch vehicle. $3 billion, which is a lot of money but pocket change when you look at the stimulus program, would put NASA's moon program [as well as other programs] back on track--it's dead in the water right now, for lack of funds. Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Why unfortunately? The moon is a good place to get back to. What about that helium 3? Plus they've been talking about making fuel and building things from what they mine on the moon. Not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, but still, it's in the thinking. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Allen Firstenberg wrote: On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Constance Warner cawar...@his.com wrote: You might also remind your senators and your congressman that China and--surprisingly--India both have space programs and, among other goals, are aiming for the moon. I don't necessarily want the U.S. to do a land grab and claim the entire moon, but I don't want China to do it either. Legally, we cannot do this. Neither can China. Neither can about 97 other nations who are parties to the Outer Space Treaty. (Among other things, the moon could be a dandy gun platform, if an unfriendly government got hold of it. Not really. Although there have been scifi stories with this theme, they assume that you have a colony there already that has a mass driver already built. It is also in violation of the Outer Space Treaty, as an aside. But I'm willing to assume that someone who wants to use it as a weapon is willing to ignore that fact. But the problem is that you still have to deal with orbital mechanics and distance and that pesky lunar gravity. Not to mention that we'd have a pretty good idea if somebody tried to build a gun there and have a reasonable amount of time to do something about it. And, of course, the moon is the gateway to the rest of the solar system.) Well... um... no. Not in the way I think you mean, anyway. The moon is a good small step when it comes to a space program... but its a lousy gateway. Nobody would put a station there with the purpose of launching missions to the rest of the galaxy from it. It does not seem like a good environment for any industry whatsoever, so any launches would have to import both fuel and launch vehicle... and why bother with lunar gravity (even if it is smaller than Earth gravity) at all in that case? The gateway to the rest of the solar system is an orbiting space station and manufacturing facility. Yes, you still have to deal with the gravity well of getting parts and fuel up there, but you don't have the limitations of fitting an entire trip inside a single launch vehicle. $3 billion, which is a lot of money but pocket change when you look at the stimulus program, would put NASA's moon program [as well as other programs] back on track--it's dead in the water right now, for lack of funds. Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
I also forget to mention, a weapons platform on the moon wouldn't provide for much of a surprise attack. FIRE! And then 3 days later I hate hearing this idea of why are we sending people to space. Do you really think a robot could have fixed the Hubble the couple times it's needed to be fixed? I really doubt it. Do you really think we could gather the information needed on how space effects humans by a bunch of robots? And no clear purpose? How about the survival of the species? Have you ever heard that old saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket? That's a major reason for getting some of us off the planet. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Chris Dunford wrote: Huh? I thought NASA's moon program is, unfortunately, still alive and sorta on schedule. We're abandoning our plans for a space station after our commitments are done and putting all our eggs into Ares/Orion. As of this moment, it still is alive. However, a White House panel of experts has recommended canceling the moon plan in favor of other ways to get to Mars. I wish they'd recommended canceling the whole manned space program instead. It's staggeringly expensive and serves no clear purpose. Satellites and robots can do far more for far less. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
At least no real purpose for you in the next few years. Unless of course we name a toilet after you instead of John Stewart. Then you'd probably want to go visit that. I can't imagine where we'd be today if everyone thought like this back in the 1400's. Who needs a new world or another route to Asia? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Yes, but sending a robot out has nowhere near the PR potential as a live person. And it's been done already. Besides, as a species, we can't actually say we walked there unless one of our feet hits the dirt. So, like I said, no real purpose. :) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Do you really think a robot could have fixed the Hubble the couple times it's needed to be fixed? I really doubt it. We could have replaced Hubble for far less than we've spent on the shuttle program. Do you really think we could gather the information needed on how space effects humans by a bunch of robots? We know pretty much everything we need to know by now. And if we don't send people up there, we don't need to worry about it anyway. :) And no clear purpose? How about the survival of the species? Have you ever heard that old saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket? This is a very troubling argument. It boils down to, We can't stop ourselves from ruining the planet we have, so let's make sure we can move to Mars. We'd be much better off taking the untold trillions it would take to accomplish this and using it to protect what we already have. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
I can't imagine where we'd be today if everyone thought like this back in the 1400's. Who needs a new world or another route to Asia? There isn't even a remote comparison between exploring Earth and sending a few people to the moon, sorry. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
There's a direct comparison. What part of moving on don't you understand? I've already mentioned helium 3, which I've heard could power the us for hundreds of years at less then the cost of what we spend on oil today. What other motivation do you need? I mean besides human growth and understanding of their place in the universe. 2+2=5, that's all I need to know. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: I can't imagine where we'd be today if everyone thought like this back in the 1400's. Who needs a new world or another route to Asia? There isn't even a remote comparison between exploring Earth and sending a few people to the moon, sorry. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Do you mean the couple of flights by the space shuttle to repair Hubble, or the entire program? We have had around 160+ space shuttle flights. We know pretty much everything we need to know? Why didn't we stop with Aristotle? Hell, we knew everything we needed to know by then. What's a microchip? Who knows, who cares. I'll bet the casualties of Challenger and Columbia wish we knew more. And yes, it is troubling, but rather we kill our own planet, or some meteor does it for us, the point is, we need to spread out. I don't think dinosaur farts or their nuclear weapons wiped them out. If they only would have had the foresight to get to the moon and Mars. But no, they were dinosaurs with walnut sized brains. I'd like to think we're better. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Do you really think a robot could have fixed the Hubble the couple times it's needed to be fixed? I really doubt it. We could have replaced Hubble for far less than we've spent on the shuttle program. Do you really think we could gather the information needed on how space effects humans by a bunch of robots? We know pretty much everything we need to know by now. And if we don't send people up there, we don't need to worry about it anyway. :) And no clear purpose? How about the survival of the species? Have you ever heard that old saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket? This is a very troubling argument. It boils down to, We can't stop ourselves from ruining the planet we have, so let's make sure we can move to Mars. We'd be much better off taking the untold trillions it would take to accomplish this and using it to protect what we already have. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
We know pretty much everything we need to know? Why didn't we stop with Aristotle? Hell, we knew everything we needed to know by then. What's a microchip? Who knows, who cares. Oh, please. That sentence was in response to your claim that we need to learn about the effects of space on humans. Quite obviously, it meant that we already know what we need to know about that. Not about everything. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Well if that was your original question, no we don't. We haven't been there long enough. We know a few things, but we're not even finished learning about us on Earth. If you think we are you could open one hell of a medical center. You'd be rich. By the way, they are testing and making drugs in space. And no, they don't have Mary Jane growing in the hold. But seriously, we know very little of long term effects of space flight on humans. We haven't been doing it long enough and doing the necessary tests to know. We do know we can get up there and back without dying about 75% of the time. I just made that percentage up. But we've lost quite a few. Also, have you checked the cost/budget for NASA as compared to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? How about the bank bail out? Did you get a bonus or your home loan forgiven? Talk about wasting money. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: We know pretty much everything we need to know? Why didn't we stop with Aristotle? Hell, we knew everything we needed to know by then. What's a microchip? Who knows, who cares. Oh, please. That sentence was in response to your claim that we need to learn about the effects of space on humans. Quite obviously, it meant that we already know what we need to know about that. Not about everything. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] the moon
Wow, when did Spirit and Opportunity learn to work on their own? I wonder if the people who get paid to drive them know this. If they are working on there own, what do you think they're thinking? There's a rock, let's flip it over. Or maybe, damn it's dusty today. Or maybe, Hey Opportunity, find anything interesting yet? Nope, I got stuck in a crater for a bit though. Speaking of that, hows the foot? Oh, what a drag. Yes, Jeff, the Mars rovers have been programmed to do simple analyses of their situation and environment. Since it takes something like 20 minutes for a command to be sent from the Earth to Mars, the rovers could fall off a cliff if they weren't programmed to recognize local conditions and proceed with caution. One or both of them got stuck in sand and had to maneuver in order to get out. Opportunity is now at the edge of a huge crater, descending to take samples. Could be more treacherous if it couldn't maneuver without direct orders from JPL. NASA channel has videos from Mars fairly often. So cool. Almost like being there. http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/video/spirit01.html http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/video/opportunity01.html Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
