Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

No Tom I have talked with more than one support person who could not 
pronounce English very well and I had a difficult time understanding 
them.  (I lived in Canada and I have heard enough English, Irish, 
Scottish,  Australian and South African accents.)


On the citizenship fee, I am well familiar with it, as I have been 
bugging my wife to get her citizenship done.  Every time she holds 
off it costs me more.  (She has to have her "Green" card renewed 
every ten years and that fee has also steeply risen to over $300.00)


Stewart


At 04:09 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote:

>Slow down one of the reasons we cannot understand them is that they
>cannot speak English well enough to handle support calls.

They are speaking English and usually very proper English. The problem is
that some people live such insular lives that they boil at the sound of
anything that is not from their particular region.

Today the application fee for becoming a US citizen was raised to over
$1000. Same mentality at work.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Tom Piwowar]

>Slow down one of the reasons we cannot understand them is that they 
>cannot speak English well enough to handle support calls.

They are speaking English and usually very proper English. The problem is 
that some people live such insular lives that they boil at the sound of 
anything that is not from their particular region.

Today the application fee for becoming a US citizen was raised to over 
$1000. Same mentality at work.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Paul Meyer]

If my mother-in-law is any example, that ones that try hardest
to blend into upper-middle class suburbia and decry all the foul
language on HBO are actually right of the Sopranos. ;>

- Original Message 
From: mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:46:42 AM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

all Italians are NOT...

sheesh

Mike

On 7/29/07, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's Italian...Jeff was being ironical.
>
> And no, all Italians are straight from the Godfather.
>
> Mike
>
> On 7/29/07, Michael Fernando < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > And, what's with the "Capiche?"  Is that mafia-speak?
> > You lecturing me?  Whatever ...
> >
> >
>



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Paul Meyer]

My problem with overseas support is that they seemed to be sworn on pain of
death to never pass a customer on to a supervisor or some other higher up. 
That may be incidental to being overseas.  Though companies that are support
oriented tend to want to keep their support operations close to home, and
that could be the causal chain.

- Original Message 
From: Michael Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:17:13 AM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

On 7/30/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Slow down one of the reasons we cannot understand them is that they
> cannot speak English well enough to handle support calls.

Jeff's comment was about the _accent_.  Had it been about the tech
support workers not being able to speak English, I wouldn't have
touched it with a ten foot pole.

You've read way too much into my exchange with Jeff so I'm leaving the
rest of your e-mail untouched (except the very end).


> Oh the capiche remark was his attempt at being cute. (your comment
> was uncalled for,

Jeff's capiche remark was directed at me.  (Perhaps, unintentionally but,)
it came across to _me_ as condescending.  Hence my comments; and I
dismissed it with an 'I don't care "whatever ..."'  IMHO, it was his
remark that was uncalled for.

> not start an ethnic war over a comment that was a reflection of poor
> hiring practices and the shipment overseas of all sorts of computer
> support jobs.

Oh, really?  Please go back and check.  His comment was about
accents and knives.  And, he said "No, I *don't* have a problem
with overseas tech support."



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Michael Fernando]

On 7/30/07, Rev. Stewart Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Slow down one of the reasons we cannot understand them is that they
> cannot speak English well enough to handle support calls.

Jeff's comment was about the _accent_.  Had it been about the tech
support workers not being able to speak English, I wouldn't have
touched it with a ten foot pole.

You've read way too much into my exchange with Jeff so I'm leaving the
rest of your e-mail untouched (except the very end).


> Oh the capiche remark was his attempt at being cute. (your comment
> was uncalled for,

Jeff's capiche remark was directed at me.  (Perhaps, unintentionally but,)
it came across to _me_ as condescending.  Hence my comments; and I
dismissed it with an 'I don't care "whatever ..."'  IMHO, it was his
remark that was uncalled for.

> not start an ethnic war over a comment that was a reflection of poor
> hiring practices and the shipment overseas of all sorts of computer
> support jobs.

Oh, really?  Please go back and check.  His comment was about
accents and knives.  And, he said "No, I *don't* have a problem
with overseas tech support."



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[mike]

all Italians are NOT...

sheesh

Mike

On 7/29/07, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's Italian...Jeff was being ironical.
>
> And no, all Italians are straight from the Godfather.
>
> Mike
>
> On 7/29/07, Michael Fernando < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > And, what's with the "Capiche?"  Is that mafia-speak?
> > You lecturing me?  Whatever ...
> >
> >
>



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Slow down one of the reasons we cannot understand them is that they 
cannot speak English well enough to handle support calls.


I myself am an immigrant and I am married to an immigrant (Although 
mine grew up speaking English, Canadian!)


I also minister to a church that has many immigrants from Europe.

If I am hired to do a job that will require me to speak to 90% or 
more of people who speak English than I will need to be able to speak 
English understandably enough for the customers to understand me, or 
else I need to find another job.  I am being hired to speak English!!


My father almost earned his PHD in engineering.  One of the reasons 
he did not finish it, was because many of the universities that had 
Engineering PHD programs had hired foreign engineer teachers to teach 
at this level who could hardly speak English.  They had to have 
translators available.


These guys have to teach an overwhelmingly large percentage of 
English speaking students so do you not think speaking the language 
their students speak would be advisable?


Before you make another comment, my mother is a native German, and my 
father could speak German and taught over in Germany for a number of 
years.  Yes he could speak the language well.


Yes I have had German, two years high school, and one year 
college.  I also had to take Hebrew and Greek for seminary.  So I am 
not a one language person.


Oh the capiche remark was his attempt at being cute. (your comment 
was uncalled for, not all Italians have ever belonged to La Costra 
Nostra)  I will not try to assume what your native tongue is, but do 
not start an ethnic war over a comment that was a reflection of poor 
hiring practices and the shipment overseas of all sorts of computer 
support jobs.


Stewart

At 10:18 PM 7/29/2007, you wrote:

On 7/29/07, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't think I'm the one who needs to get used to something.

Right!  They all should get used to you.  The typical attitude
of _some_ Americans!   *sigh*

You can't understand them because they speak with a
different _accent_.  So what chance of Americans have in
understanding others if they speak a different language
altogether?

And, what's with the "Capiche?"  Is that mafia-speak?
You lecturing me?  Whatever ...



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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[mike]

It's Italian...Jeff was being ironical.

And no, all Italians are straight from the Godfather.

Mike

On 7/29/07, Michael Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> And, what's with the "Capiche?"  Is that mafia-speak?
> You lecturing me?  Whatever ...
>
>



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Michael Fernando]

On 7/29/07, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't think I'm the one who needs to get used to something.

Right!  They all should get used to you.  The typical attitude
of _some_ Americans!   *sigh*

You can't understand them because they speak with a
different _accent_.  So what chance of Americans have in
understanding others if they speak a different language
altogether?

And, what's with the "Capiche?"  Is that mafia-speak?
You lecturing me?  Whatever ...



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Jeff Wright]

I don't think I'm the one who needs to get used to something.

No, I *don't* have a problem with overseas tech support.  I clearly said
that.  What I do have a problem with is not being able to understand the
speaker because of a *very* thick accent.  I think speaking clearly is a
basic job skill for a tech support position in any language, don't you
think?

It's pretty simple: If I can't understand what you are saying, or
vice-versa, then you are not qualified for that position because you are not
helping me.

Capiche?

> -Original Message-
> Looks like you _do_ have a problem with _that_.
> 
> There are a lot more of us who speak _English_ with an
> accent than those of you who speak _American_.  It is a
> global economy.  Get used to it!



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Michael Fernando]

On 7/29/07, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> ... (who was located
in Round Rock, TX, BTW)
> ... *again,* not located in this country.

> Not that I have a problem with that per se, but sometimes,
> you can cut the accent with a knife.

Looks like you _do_ have a problem with _that_.

There are a lot more of us who speak _English_ with an
accent than those of you who speak _American_.  It is a
global economy.  Get used to it!



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Jeff Wright]

Not by choice.  They bought Veritas, who used to make Backup Exec.  The
situation I'm in may be enough to put me onto a different product.

I cringed the day I heard about the sale.  On the day of the actual merger,
the Symantec CEO was quoted as saying "I don't know why we bought them."

Head.  Desk.  Pound.

> -Original Message-
> All this being said, Jeff...why the blank blank blank are you using
> symantec?  Just curious...



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[mike]

All this being said, Jeff...why the blank blank blank are you using
symantec?  Just curious...

Mike

On 7/29/07, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > So objective. Compare a real response to a hypothetical and sing the
> > praises of what the hypothetical vendor might have done in some fantasy
> > situation.
>
> Are you still sniffing the iPhone glue?  These are both real situations,
> neither is hypothetical, so what is your point?
>
> > I have read many happy reports from Mac owners where Apple provided
> > service on the spot at the Apple store or air shipping a fixed machine
> > in
> > 48 hours.
>
> Bully for them; I would kill to get that response time from Apple.  Did
> any
> of them get support on-site at *their* business or did they all conform to
> Apple's "Schlep-it-Yourself" policy?
>
> > We have had recent reports on this List of Dell sending on-site techs
> > who
> > were totally clueless and unable to make even simple repairs. I read
> > recently how Dell dragged their feet on a repair until the warrenty
> > period ran out and then would not compelete the repair.
>
> Not my experience at all in over a decade of using Dell.  Dell has stood
> by
> every repair ever made for my .org and *never* dragged its feet.
>
> Just to make my point, the other day I spent 4 hours on the phone with a
> Dell support tech (who was located in Round Rock, TX, BTW) making sure
> that
> our tape autoloader wasn't the problem with our very slow backups, now
> that
> we upgraded to Backup Exec 11d.  The technician was patient, courteous and
> professional and ran every test possible just to rule out the possibility
> of
> it being the problem.  The problem is with Symantec, of course, but I
> wanted
> to have that on record.  Now, I get to go back to Symantec's support tech
> *again,* not located in this country.
>
> Not that I have a problem with that per se, but sometimes, you can cut the
> accent with a knife.
>
>
> 
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> 
>



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Jeff Wright]

> So objective. Compare a real response to a hypothetical and sing the
> praises of what the hypothetical vendor might have done in some fantasy
> situation.

Are you still sniffing the iPhone glue?  These are both real situations,
neither is hypothetical, so what is your point?  

> I have read many happy reports from Mac owners where Apple provided
> service on the spot at the Apple store or air shipping a fixed machine
> in
> 48 hours.

Bully for them; I would kill to get that response time from Apple.  Did any
of them get support on-site at *their* business or did they all conform to
Apple's "Schlep-it-Yourself" policy?
 
> We have had recent reports on this List of Dell sending on-site techs
> who
> were totally clueless and unable to make even simple repairs. I read
> recently how Dell dragged their feet on a repair until the warrenty
> period ran out and then would not compelete the repair.

Not my experience at all in over a decade of using Dell.  Dell has stood by
every repair ever made for my .org and *never* dragged its feet.

Just to make my point, the other day I spent 4 hours on the phone with a
Dell support tech (who was located in Round Rock, TX, BTW) making sure that
our tape autoloader wasn't the problem with our very slow backups, now that
we upgraded to Backup Exec 11d.  The technician was patient, courteous and
professional and ran every test possible just to rule out the possibility of
it being the problem.  The problem is with Symantec, of course, but I wanted
to have that on record.  Now, I get to go back to Symantec's support tech
*again,* not located in this country.  

Not that I have a problem with that per se, but sometimes, you can cut the
accent with a knife.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Tom Piwowar]

>Not to their credit, we're without this machine for 2-3 weeks while it's
>repaired off-site.  Were this a Dell, I'd have the PC fixed by a tech, on
>site, at worst the next day, with minimal downtime.  The PC user, in this
>case, is productive.  The Mac user is not.

So objective. Compare a real response to a hypothetical and sing the 
praises of what the hypothetical vendor might have done in some fantasy 
situation.

I have read many happy reports from Mac owners where Apple provided 
service on the spot at the Apple store or air shipping a fixed machine in 
48 hours. 

We have had recent reports on this List of Dell sending on-site techs who 
were totally clueless and unable to make even simple repairs. I read 
recently how Dell dragged their feet on a repair until the warrenty 
period ran out and then would not compelete the repair.

It all depends on the specific situation and the phase of the moon.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Paul Meyer]

Thanks, Jeff.  Here is more grist for you mill, previously posted.
The Linux Action Show complains that the biggest pain in terms
of "open shop" support is OSX because Apple takes such pains
to disallow OSX running in a virtual session (and those boys are
have love for MS).

Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well stated Paul.

> -Original Message-
> I think the article is mistaken about the conservatism of IT
> departments.
> (Surely there is misinformation coming sales reps - eg MS - about other
> technologies but I think they take advantage of a certain reality and
> don't
> create it.)
> 
> That reality is that IT resources, especially user support resources
> are a relative and perhaps an absolute constraint on how users can use
> their systems.  This is a constant theme in the history of desktop
> computing and we
> have seen the entire retail support industry outsourced to India (!).
> So whether
> you have a Mac, Wintel or Linux shop,  de-standardizing has real costs
> and
> the costs can be substantial and they can be hard to predict.  The same
> thing
> can be said of giving the users "freedom."
> 
> Adding more configurations and more
> technologies, tools to support probably adds to IT resources in a non-
> linear manner.  IMHO -Pjm



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Jeff Wright]

Well stated Paul.

> -Original Message-
> I think the article is mistaken about the conservatism of IT
> departments.
> (Surely there is misinformation coming sales reps - eg MS - about other
> technologies but I think they take advantage of a certain reality and
> don't
> create it.)
> 
> That reality is that IT resources, especially user support resources
> are a relative and perhaps an absolute constraint on how users can use
> their systems.  This is a constant theme in the history of desktop
> computing and we
> have seen the entire retail support industry outsourced to India (!).
> So whether
> you have a Mac, Wintel or Linux shop,  de-standardizing has real costs
> and
> the costs can be substantial and they can be hard to predict.  The same
> thing
> can be said of giving the users "freedom."
> 
> Adding more configurations and more
> technologies, tools to support probably adds to IT resources in a non-
> linear manner.  IMHO -Pjm



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Jeff Wright]

I decided to google ATS.

http://tinyurl.com/388uun

Gosh, what an objective source.  And a phantom IT manager with no name or
ability to confirm the claim.  What a story.

Here's mine.  We lost yet another eMac to a logic board failure, which has
to be replaced to fix the problem.  To their credit, Apple is fixing this
outside of warranty.

Not to their credit, we're without this machine for 2-3 weeks while it's
repaired off-site.  Were this a Dell, I'd have the PC fixed by a tech, on
site, at worst the next day, with minimal downtime.  The PC user, in this
case, is productive.  The Mac user is not.

We support Blackberries in my .org.  We have a Blackberry Enterprise Server
and that gives secure, real-time wireless synching.  Anyone else with
something else has to use SSL IMAP.  If their device won't support that,
tough luck.  I'll help you set up your personal device so it will work with
our network, if you need it, but any other personal device support is on
your own.

IT is a 2-way conversation and yes, absolutely, it should be enabling the
company to be more productive.  I am constantly lobbying for systems that
will decentralize information to the user population, giving enterprise-wide
access to it when they need it, not keeping it cooped up in a departmental
data silo.  But, usually that can't be met due to budgetary constraints.
I've been trying to get an industry-targeted CRM system in for over 3 years
now, without success.  Money is the obstacle.  That's too bad, because this
system is something we sorely need.  

Oh, and the Mac-using dept I have is the one who doesn't want to change and
use this new system.  They like their FileMaker files just the way they are,
that unpredictably corrupt and that no one else can access.

I've been trying to get an enterprise-level digital asset manager system,
like Extensis, in so other departments can have access to our image store
for their own needs, but marketing won't release its grip on control and
again, money is another issue.  

The users have to be able to articulate their business need for the company
to properly commit resources to that need.  At the same time, the users need
to realize that resources are limited and not every need can be met when
they want it. 

Of course, if you're a CEO, who only knows what he wants and wants it
yesterday, the reasons be damned, then its everyone else's fault.

> -Original Message-
> Things are quiet; time for a flame war!
> 
>  From eWeek.com: 
> 
> I especially liked the end of the article:
> 
> >In my column, I mentioned a report of an IT manager who was lobbying
> >his clients against the iPhone and the Macintosh. He said he would
> >quit before he would allow a Mac in his environment.
> >
> >This drew a strong response from Daniel Reiss, president and CEO of
> >Automated Terminal Systems, of Washington. He said that IT
> >consultant would be quickly out on the curb.
> >
> >"Too many [people] in IT departments do not understand their
> >function, or who actually earns the revenue that allows [IT workers]
> >to be paid regularly. It is not the function of the IT department to
> >block technology or innovation. Neither is it the mission of IT
> >workers to make their own jobs easier, rather to facilitate the work
> >of the end users. Whatever benefits [users] will benefit the
> >organization and ultimately IT," he said.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Paul Meyer]

Huh? My point was not a "pro-MS" point but I'll bite. 

Is your point that MS
technology so bad diversifing away from it will ultimately pay off? (I can see
that.)  

Or was your point that you can't remain static with an IT strategy?
(I can see that).  

Still, computing is full of examples of projects
that expired because they weren't able to handle the complexity they generated.


Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Adding more configurations and more 
technologies, tools to support probably
>adds to IT resources in a non-linear manner.  

This is a long-winded way to say "F-E-A-R." Windows punishes anyone who 
thinks independently and deviates from "the Microsoft way."  If you do MS 
will do its best to break you.

So the choice is whether to embrace MS or reject MS.

I can't have much respect for IT managers who do the former.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Tom Piwowar]

>Adding more configurations and more technologies, tools to support probably
>adds to IT resources in a non-linear manner.  

This is a long-winded way to say "F-E-A-R." Windows punishes anyone who 
thinks independently and deviates from "the Microsoft way."  If you do MS 
will do its best to break you.

So the choice is whether to embrace MS or reject MS.

I can't have much respect for IT managers who do the former.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Paul Meyer]

I think the article is mistaken about the conservatism of IT departments.
(Surely there is misinformation coming sales reps - eg MS - about other
technologies but I think they take advantage of a certain reality and don't
create it.)  

That reality is that IT resources, especially user support resources
are a relative and perhaps an absolute constraint on how users can use their 
systems.  This is a constant theme in the history of desktop computing and we
have seen the entire retail support industry outsourced to India (!).  So 
whether
you have a Mac, Wintel or Linux shop,  de-standardizing has real costs and
the costs can be substantial and they can be hard to predict.  The same thing
can be said of giving the users "freedom."  

Adding more configurations and more
technologies, tools to support probably adds to IT resources in a non-linear 
manner.  IMHO -Pjm


Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jul 21, 2007, at 6:05 PM, mike wrote:

> What system are they using where they are tortured or being punished?

   The folks where I work have to use machines running Windows because 
of software requirements.  They have problems with those computers, and 
spend a fair amount of downtime fixing those problems.  Perhaps the 
problems are of their own making at times, but they do appear to find 
their computers hard to manage and understand.  They routinely stumble 
trying to do the simplest of things, such as display a slideshow of 
their photos from a flash memory card.  I'd be willing to bet that I 
will only have to show them one time how to do it on the new Mac I 
obtained for my place of work and they will have no problems in the 
future on that machine.


> On a recent macbreak podcast one of the podcasters said he was 
> basically
> afraid of windows because he would have no idea how to protect himself 
> from
> all the bad things out there.  I see mac users like this all the time, 
> mac
> users that have had it hammered into them from the community that 
> windows
> will take down their entire network in seconds, all their data will be 
> lost,
> all files corrupted as soon as the machine is booted.

   I agree that the hype is often exaggerated.  All I know is from my 
own experiences and that which is shared with me by other folks.  I 
have zero problems that I cannot quickly resolve myself, while all the 
persons I work with have various problems that they tell me of that 
they cannot readily resolve.  I use Macs at home, they use Windows.  
That is all that I know.  My girlfriend uses Windows where she works, 
and Macs at home.  She is far happier with what she uses at home.  I 
just have to take her word on that.

   I have used Windows 98 and up, and I have to say that I find it more 
convoluted than the Mac OS, either System 9 or 10.  That is just my 
opinion, but that opinion is based upon my personal experiences.

   Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Steve Rigby]

On Jul 21, 2007, at 6:05 PM, mike wrote:


What system are they using where they are tortured or being punished?


  The folks where I work have to use machines running Windows because 
of software requirements.  They have problems with those computers, and 
spend a fair amount of downtime fixing those problems.  Perhaps the 
problems are of their own making at times, but they do appear to find 
their computers hard to manage and understand.  They routinely stumble 
trying to do the simplest of things, such as display a slideshow of 
their photos from a flash memory card.  I'd be willing to bet that I 
will only have to show them one time how to do it on the new Mac I 
obtained for my place of work and they will have no problems in the 
future on that machine.



On a recent macbreak podcast one of the podcasters said he was 
basically
afraid of windows because he would have no idea how to protect himself 
from
all the bad things out there.  I see mac users like this all the time, 
mac
users that have had it hammered into them from the community that 
windows
will take down their entire network in seconds, all their data will be 
lost,

all files corrupted as soon as the machine is booted.


  I agree that the hype is often exaggerated.  All I know is from my 
own experiences and that which is shared with me by other folks.  I 
have zero problems that I cannot quickly resolve myself, while all the 
persons I work with have various problems that they tell me of that 
they cannot readily resolve.  I use Macs at home, they use Windows.  
That is all that I know.  My girlfriend uses Windows where she works, 
and Macs at home.  She is far happier with what she uses at home.  I 
just have to take her word on that.


  I have used Windows 98 and up, and I have to say that I find it more 
convoluted than the Mac OS, either System 9 or 10.  That is just my 
opinion, but that opinion is based upon my personal experiences.


  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Steve Rigby]

On Jul 21, 2007, at 6:27 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote:

Fear comes from working with a system that constantly punishes its 
user.


  I could not agree more.  I know that in this case the reluctance to 
delve into a new type of operating system is predicated upon past 
experiences which have been fraught with too much complexity and 
technical issues.


  I am offering my fellow workers some kind and gentle guidance into 
the basics of navigating the Mac OS.  I am sure they will catch on very 
quickly and discover the value of powerful technology made simple.


  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[mike]

What system are they using where they are tortured or being punished?

On a recent macbreak podcast one of the podcasters said he was basically
afraid of windows because he would have no idea how to protect himself from
all the bad things out there.  I see mac users like this all the time, mac
users that have had it hammered into them from the community that windows
will take down their entire network in seconds, all their data will be lost,
all files corrupted as soon as the machine is booted.  There is unjustified
fear on both sides.

I'd prefer open IT departments, if macs work, great, if not then pc's will
be just fine also.  The IT department at a local community college is very
mac and pc friendly, there is very little if any prejudice coming from
either side.  That's one reason I really like Leo Laporte, he's more of a
mac user that has tons of windows experience and he hasn't bought into the
hype about windows from mac users.  When a caller asks what system should be
bought, Leo always answers from the point of view 'what will the computer be
used for' first and foremost.  I've heard him telling users in no uncertain
terms to buy a mac and vice versa depending on the situation.

The fear spoken of comes from ignorance, not punishment.


Mike

On 7/21/07, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>I think that typical computer users who have long been immersed in
>the Windows computing environment, even though they will often freely
>admit to having experienced problems that seem to be absent or greatly
>mitigated in the Mac world, are just plain afraid to change.

Fear comes from working with a system that constantly punishes its user.
You will see similar behaviour from people who are victims of torture. It
will take you a while to build their confidence until they are able to
accept that things are alright now. You are doing a good thing.

This is not a flame. Just encouragement.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Tom Piwowar]

>I think that typical computer users who have long been immersed in 
>the Windows computing environment, even though they will often freely 
>admit to having experienced problems that seem to be absent or greatly 
>mitigated in the Mac world, are just plain afraid to change.

Fear comes from working with a system that constantly punishes its user. 
You will see similar behaviour from people who are victims of torture. It 
will take you a while to build their confidence until they are able to 
accept that things are alright now. You are doing a good thing.

This is not a flame. Just encouragement.



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Re: [CGUYS] iPhone vs. IT: Clash of the Culture Titans

[Steve Rigby]

On Jul 21, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Roger D. Parish wrote:


From eWeek.com: 

I especially liked the end of the article:

In my column, I mentioned a report of an IT manager who was lobbying 
his clients against the iPhone and the Macintosh. He said he would 
quit before he would allow a Mac in his environment.


  I am attempting to bring a Mac into use where I work, which is an art 
gallery and picture framing operation.  They are forced to use Windows 
for much of the work because the software they have for specialized 
purposes requires that platform,  However, for a lot of other purposes, 
it is my estimation that Macintosh machines would be better suited.


  A lot of problems are in evidence in the usage of the Windows 
computers, which range from annoying malfunctions of various sorts to 
just being hard to use and figure out.  Personally, I try to keep 
myself distanced from becoming involved in troubleshooting these 
situations because I am really not all that familiar with the Windows 
OS.  A lot of time is spent(wasted) consulting with tech support in 
India.


  I just obtained a Mac for whatever they want to use it for, although 
I have functions in mind that led to the decision to purchase this 
computer.  I had to overcome an insistence to purchase a Windows 
machine, regardless of how it is to be employed at the gallery.  It was 
a bit of a battle, and it was primarily through providing my co-workers 
with pictures of the Mac I had in mind that convinced them to yield.  
They had to admit that the physical elegance of the iMac that I had 
decided upon indicated a degree of promise that its functionality could 
match the exterior design.


  I think that typical computer users who have long been immersed in 
the Windows computing environment, even though they will often freely 
admit to having experienced problems that seem to be absent or greatly 
mitigated in the Mac world, are just plain afraid to change.  While the 
folks where I work have been Windows users for years, they still have 
trouble figuring out how to navigate within the XP environment.  They 
have a hard time trying to locate files, so they store everything on 
the desktop where they can see them.  What a mess that becomes!


  So, the new iMac is there and set up and I am installing various 
software that can be of benefit.  Thus far there have been favorable 
comments about how "gorgeous" and "sexy" it is and how little space it 
takes up unlike the "clunky" towers that encase the current computers.  
But, there appears to be some resistance to booting up and getting 
involved.  I predict that will evaporate when they discover that it is 
easier to navigate the brand new Mac environment than the Windows 
environment that they have been using for years, yet remain befuddled 
about.


  Steve

PS: This is not a flame.  It is an accurate description of actual 
events.




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