date:20010309

Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7.2 + 8.0 bloated and resource hog!

2001-03-09 Thread Matias Griese

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Alexander Skwar wrote:

>> Maybe I should have read the descriptions before claiming anything. But
>Sure, you should have - but by not doing so, you just showed how "newbies"
>would approach this.  Mind you, I'm not calling you a newbie - I don't know

I don't mind because I have found out that even experts tend to do the
same. Nobody reads the manual. It will always be a fact.

>who you are and what your experience is, but it just happens so, that
>newbies would also use this (non-)approach (I assume).

But now as I start to think experts tend to think that Linux won't do
anything behind of your back. They have been installed the packages
from the source tarballs for years and by doing so they've had a
perfect touch of the system. For the same reasons the only window
manager they're used is fvwm.

Now they install the new Mandrake which seems to install everything
they don't want to install. And like that would have been not enough
it also starts all the unneeded daemons. So after five minutes using
the new system he says that it's way too bloaded and begin to have
wet dreams of having Debian (and apt-get).

Even those not so old fashioned are used to know what is installed
and which of the servers are running. They also go through all the
configuration files which are used by some of those servers _before_
starting them. I like Debian too (minimal installation + apt-get
whenever something useful is missing). But I wan't to be more
bleeding edge too, I wan't to have something fancy and new. Debian
is perfect for the servers, but if you are using the computer also
as a desktop, Mdk is just the best choice this time. But as power
user I wan't to have more flexibility in the installation process
without having to go through >2000 packages by hand.

That gives me an idea. Why not to make a expandable tree (like in
Corel Draw's installation):

Desktop...
  KDE...
  Gnome...
  Others...
Multimedia...
Programming...
  General (C/C++)...
  Other languages...
Assembly
Java
...
  ...
Server...
  WWW server...
Apache
Apache php
Apache perl
...
  Ftp server...
  SSH server...
  Others...

It's much more flexible to have for example three levels of choices
+ individual packet selection than having just one level + individual.
More levels is too much and even this structure should be kept quite
abstract. So this would become some kind of individual field selection
where fields are guite general and contain many packages. The normal
user needs only the first or two first levels. And the power user has
his customizing options (without having to select every individual
package by himself).

>> flaws in it too. It seems to be unstable, because of too many services
>Can't say that it is unstable for me.

It's not unstable for me either, now that I have configured everything.

>> In this case Windows may be unable to find the letter F: until those
>> linux partiotions are deleted and changed to be as hda3 and hda4.
>Hmm, might be that hda6 and hda7 are created with partition type 85.  Try to
>change this to 81 and everything should be fine (I guess - I don't "use"
>Windows, so I can't try)

I don't use Windows either. Haven't been using it for years. But it
was my father's computer with Windows ME preinstalled. I didn't have
much time to install the Mdk 7.2 so I thought that I'll take a normal
(not expert) installation. So it made the partiotions automatically
(without giving me the choice to use the primary partitions).
The extended partiotion type was 5 (if I remember it right).

Regards,
  Matias

[Cooker] I'm out.

2001-03-09 Thread Digital Wokan


Until liblcms returns to .so vs .a and a revision gets made to
kernel-2.4.2-8mdk, I won't be able to bring Mdk8b1 back up for further
testing.  Serves me right for not making a backup copy of the -7 kernel
I guess.
Until then, I'll keep an eye on my fmirror results.
-- 
Digital Wokan, Tribal Mage of the Electronics Age
Guerilla Linux Warrior

Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7.2 + 8.0 bloated and resource hog!

2001-03-09 Thread andre


> 
> Alexander Skwar wrote:
> > Hmm, thinking about it - hmm, as Mandrake is targeted at the newbie kind of
> > user, I begin to think that even after an install, a service should default
> > to being turned off.  Yes, it's beginning to make sense.  If someone knows
> > that he wants something, than it's easier for him to turn the service
> > intentionally on.
> AGREE.
> 
> > But then again, someone may not know what he wants.  Suppose a new linux
> > user, who just read, that linux comes with an email server.  He knows that
> > he wants an email server, but fails to see that postfix is an email server.
> > Now the service is turned off - he comes to the conclusion, that "Linux is
> > not working" because he expected to have an email server when installing
> > Linux.  What about these kind of users?
> 
> It makes much more perfect sense to write a message in a dialog box
> after install: "Dear user, your servers are not turned on by default so
> that you can choose which one you want to run by yourself. If you need
> it, log in as root user and type drakxservices from the console and
> start the services that you need for your servers. If you only want to
> run Mandrake as a desktop/development workstation, you don't have to
> turn on any services so that your computer is optimized for desktop. To
> update Mandrake, you can run Mandrake Update Robot if you user your
> computer as a server or rpmdrake for Desktop user"

The problem with that is that you want to run some services. Of the top of my head i 
guess xfs would be essental for a desktop user. Maybe the services should be partioned 
into desktop and server services.


> 
> Another good idea is, try installing Caldera OpenDesktop 2.4 and you'll
> see that login boot screen says "anacron [Enabled], crond [Enabled],
> apache [Disabled],  portmap [Disabled], nfs [Disabled], etc etc etc"
> However, Caldera still doesn't turn them off by default, which is bad.
> 
> > Yes, this should not happen.  Upgrading packages should not change the
> > whether a service is turned on or off.
> Of course it should NEVER happen. I don't understand why the packaging
> forces us to run these unwanted services :-(
> 
> -- 
> Prana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> http://www.cyest.org
> GnuPG Key ID: 0x33343FD3 (2000-07-21)
> Key fingerprint = F1FB 1F76 8866 0F40 A801  D9DA 6BED 6641 3334 3FD3
> http://blackhole.pca.dfn.de:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x33343FD3
> 
>

[Cooker] But and Install Issue about 8.0beta1

2001-03-09 Thread Xuedong Zhang


I have several issues when I installed the 8.0beta1,
some of them is solved and some of them is still not
clear to me :) Hope some one can asnwer me question

(I using 8.0beta1 iso)

It seems the install program have some problem with
the dependency, I choose expert and select some package
and then at the end of the installation, some package have
problem about installation, I hit continue and then every
thing is OK.

2. Postfix mailserver,
  Postfix needs nmh* package to do its job, and unfortunately
nmh* is in the second ISO, it takes me some time to figure
it out and install the nmh* pacckage

3. Telnet server
  I don't know if it is a but, using xinetd to start the server
the first time is OK, but if i failed to login from another
machine using telnet, it doesn't work for other telnet
service

  This is bad , for I cann't reach the server everytime. This
means I have to come to the server and type xinetd restart to
enable the telnet service again !!!
Anyone can help me???



-- 
Xuedong Zhang
---office: (617)353-9148-
Cummington St. 44/BME, Boston 02215, MA USA
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://hello.to/xuedong ---

Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7.2 + 8.0 bloated and resource hog!

2001-03-09 Thread Pete

Perfect example of this happened to me today. A friend of mine stated he
was tired of running a certain other operating system and wanted to try something
different. He knew I ran Linux and asked if I could help him install it.
I was busy, but gladly gave him my Mandrake 7.2 cd's. This friend is a system
administrator and is comfortable and competent with the particular operating
system that he runs, so I felt he would have no problems with the mdk install.
I gave him the cd's yesterday. Today he asked if I could help him. He had
chosen an expert install and wanted to know what packages he needed. He explained
to me that, the day before, he had chosen an expert install, but didn't like
the fact that he had an ftp and a web server running. He also asked what
identd, inetd, xinetd, and portmap were, and whether he needed them. He said
he had tried to go through the thousands of packages, but that it had given
him headache so he quit and installed everything. He told me that he wanted
to run an ssh server, thought he needed ipchains, and wanted to have "standard",
whatever that is, desktop functionality, but may want to run some servers
in the future. I told him he should do a Desktop install and not run the
expert mode install. He then asked me why everything was installed by default,
and why everyone was trying to make Linux like the particular operating system
he was trying to get away from.

Here is my point:
This is the kind of mentality I am presented with most often. Oh, I know
operating systems, so I can do an expert install. What? There are thousands
of packages? Oh, well I have the hd space so I guess I will install everything,
and figure out what I need later.(Yeah, that will happen!) Or, I don't have
the hd space, but don't want to weed through thousands of packages, so I will
let the installer only install 50% of them. It knows what I need. :) I couldn't
possibly do a standard install, because when I do a standard install with
a different operating system it installs a bunch of stuff I don't want. Therefore
I must do either a custom or expert install. (And unknowingly install a bunch
of stuff I don't need or want)

Balancing security and usability is a constant problem, and since Mandrake
is aimed at the "newbie" I would say that enabling everything by default makes
sense from a usability standpoint. However, with a lot of people moving
to Linux from other operating systems, mostly for security and/or performance
reasons, I think we need to strive to maintain that security and performance.
I think one way to do that would be to not start services by default and
work on informing the user that the functionality that they want is there,
but they need to enable it. Then work on making it easier for the users to
understand how to enable it.

Ok, I am done now. That was wy too wordy.
Pete

Prana wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Alexander Skwar wrote:
Hmm, thinking about it - hmm, as Mandrake is targeted at the newbie kind ofuser, I begin to think that even after an install, a service should defaultto being turned off. Yes, it's beginning to make sense. If someone knowsthat he wants something, than it's easier for him to turn the serviceintentionally on.
AGREE.
But then again, someone may not know what he wants. Suppose a new linuxuser, who just read, that linux comes with an email server. He knows thathe wants an email server, but fails to see that postfix is an email server.Now the service is turned off - he comes to the conclusion, that "Linux isnot working" because he expected to have an email server when installingLinux. What about these kind of users?
It makes much more perfect sense to write a message in a dialog boxafter install: "Dear user, your servers are not turned on by default sothat you can choose which one you want to run by yourself. If you needit, log in as root user and type drakxservices from the console andstart the services that you need for your servers. If you only want torun Mandrake as a desktop/development workstation, you don't have toturn on any services so that your computer is optimized for desktop. Toupdate Mandrake, you can run Mandrake Update Robot if you user yourcomputer as a server or rpmdrake for Desktop user"Another good idea is, try installing Caldera OpenDesktop 2.4 and you'llsee that login boot screen says "anacron [Enabled], crond [Enabled],apache [Disabled], portmap [Disabled], nfs [Disabled], etc etc etc"However, Caldera still doesn't turn them off by default, which is bad.
Yes, this should not happen. Upgrading packages should not change thewhether a service is turned on or off.
Of course it should NEVER happen. I don't understand why the packagingforces us to run these unwanted services :-(

1 2 >

1 - 100 of 169 matches

Mail list logo