Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Monday 21 January 2002 08:33, Sergio Korlowsky wrote: This time I would dare to say... EVERYTHING means... eveything, (Pixel?) with the exception of: conflicting packages or those with known dependancy problems. Since there are only a handful of these (albeit some of them involving several packages), such as Pro/pure/wu-FTPd, SendMail/PostFix, Apache/Zope/Boa/Roxen, the option of a small set of multi-choices (opened on a reasonable set of defaults, say ProFTPd, PostFix, Apache in this example) to settle any remaining issues in a kitchen-sink install in real time seems to be a reasonable approach. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Monday 21 January 2002 08:34, you wrote: - On Monday 21 January 2002 08:33, Sergio Korlowsky wrote: - This time I would dare to say... EVERYTHING means... eveything, (Pixel?) - with the exception of: conflicting packages or those with known dependancy - problems. - - Since there are only a handful of these (albeit some of them involving - several packages), such as Pro/pure/wu-FTPd, SendMail/PostFix, - Apache/Zope/Boa/Roxen, the option of a small set of multi-choices (opened on - a reasonable set of defaults, say ProFTPd, PostFix, Apache in this example) - to settle any remaining issues in a kitchen-sink install in real time seems - to be a reasonable approach. - - Cheers; Leon - - - I'll give you another 'good' reason to have a Intall Everything 'Option', If for any reason I miss a selection from the lng list of additional packages I want to install, (even if I never use them). By selecting 'packages' at initiall installation stage, it takes care of all dependancies, but, if I install later on, always have to search for a lot of aditional libraries. What I am trying to expalin is, It IS better to have all those packages resolve dependancies and install related libraries at initial install or upgrade, than having to go picking one by one later on. And is just an option for those of us who want to have everything installed, maybe not for someone with a limited space (small hdd.) my 0.02 SK
[Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
I've been running cooker on 3 of my systems for a few months now and I find myself missing an option that Redhat has had for a while and that is the 'install everything' checkbox in the install tool. Even after checking every single box on the select software scrren of Mandrake, things like 'unzip' aren't even installed. This gets a little tedious, especially if you have a big server with plenty of space and you don't want to traverse 20 submenus just to get all the stuff you need to use the system effectively. Thoughts, comments?
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Dan Mack wrote: Even after checking every single box on the select software scrren of Mandrake, things like 'unzip' aren't even installed. Thoughts, comments? Zip/unzip not installed is the source of a significant number of trouble posts by newcomers @ MUO, for instance. Perhaps these, at least, should be more automatically installed.
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. Honestly, I hate it. To deal with it, first install the system with the tree view package selection system of the installation. Then I open up software manager and try to figure out which packages dont conflict with the others, etc. After spending hours I come to managing my personal install all autoinst.cfg which is almost install all. This is stupid. Selecting all the packages, is stupid too, as they will break each other, but it is not the user to deal with it, it is the setup that must deal with it. Xmms plugins (not talking about untrustable ones), some good games, that I never could understood why not installed and cannot be selected in the tree view. I may sound offending, but I am just trying to see my favorite distro be much better. Onur Kucuk _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Onur Kucuk wrote: Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. Honestly, I hate it. To deal with it, first install the system with the tree view package selection system of the installation. Then I open up software manager and try to figure out which packages dont conflict with the others, etc. After spending hours I come to managing my personal install all autoinst.cfg which is almost install all. This is stupid. Agreed. snip Selecting all the packages, is stupid too, as they will break each other, but it is not the user to deal with it, it is the setup that must deal with it. Yes, agreed. It all comes down to defining what 'everything' 'is'. RedHat doesn't insatll absolutely everything on all of their disks but rather a set list of what they determine 'everything' to be. In my experience, this has been good enough. I'd be happy with everything meaning the complete set of base applications that don't have conflicts with each other and that don't have possible security implications. Yes, someone at Mandrake needs to actually determine what goes on the list but this is sort of one of the jobs of distro vendor, isn't it? snip Dan
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Rolf Pedersen wrote: Dan Mack wrote: Even after checking every single box on the select software scrren of Mandrake, things like 'unzip' aren't even installed. Thoughts, comments? Zip/unzip not installed is the source of a significant number of trouble posts by newcomers @ MUO, for instance. Perhaps these, at least, should be more automatically installed. Yeah and for crying out loud, even M$ has unzip on XP now by default! LOL! You would hope that Linux would able to include unzip without extra work as well. :-) Dan
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Dan Mack wrote: I've been running cooker on 3 of my systems for a few months now and I find myself missing an option that Redhat has had for a while and that is the 'install everything' checkbox in the install tool. Even after checking every single box on the select software scrren of Mandrake, things like 'unzip' aren't even installed. This gets a little tedious, especially if you have a big server with plenty of space and you don't want to traverse 20 submenus just to get all the stuff you need to use the system effectively. Thoughts, comments? First of all, MAndrake has many more packages than RH. Second, some packages conflict with each other and cannot be installed side-by side (Glide libraries and Zope servers, for example). And please don't tell Mandrake to pick. You know no matter what they pick, it will be starting a holy war. Last I looked, recommended install didn't install emacs which is my favorite IDE, and second favorite desktop... But during install (individual package selection) there is a little symbol at the bottom which looks like two blue arrows chasing each other -- click that -- Presto! A flat list comes up so you can pick your favorite packages in collating sequence. Civileme
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
t First of all, MAndrake has many more packages than RH. Second, some t packages conflict with each other and cannot be installed side-by side t (Glide libraries and Zope servers, for example). t And please don't tell Mandrake to pick. You know no matter what they t pick, it will be starting a holy war. Last I looked, recommended t install didn't install emacs which is my favorite IDE, and second t favorite desktop... t But during install (individual package selection) there is a little t symbol at the bottom which looks like two blue arrows chasing each other t -- click that -- Presto! A flat list comes up so you can pick your t favorite packages in collating sequence. t Civileme That button causes me hours when someone (including me) wants all the packages, which is very common. (People are new to linux, and many of them want to see it on both desktop and server sides, so they want it all) At least for once, until I come up creating a non-conflicting maximum-#-of-packages package list. This is not the job of the user !! I just want to press a full install button, and be seriously comfortable that I have all the packages (within the limits of logic, I am not saying glide and zope shall be installed at the same time) installed, and they are not conflicting. Suse redhat etc. does it, still dont know why mdk does not, and why nobody from mandrake agrees totally saying it will be fixed or will work on it while many ppl are complaining about it. Onur Kucuk _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, tester wrote: Dan Mack wrote: I've been running cooker on 3 of my systems for a few months now and I find myself missing an option that Redhat has had for a while and that is the 'install everything' checkbox in the install tool. Even after checking every single box on the select software scrren of Mandrake, things like 'unzip' aren't even installed. This gets a little tedious, especially if you have a big server with plenty of space and you don't want to traverse 20 submenus just to get all the stuff you need to use the system effectively. Thoughts, comments? First of all, MAndrake has many more packages than RH. Second, some packages conflict with each other and cannot be installed side-by side (Glide libraries and Zope servers, for example). And please don't tell Mandrake to pick. You know no matter what they pick, it will be starting a holy war. Last I looked, recommended install didn't install emacs which is my favorite IDE, and second favorite desktop... Mandrake already picks. And, they didn't pick zip/unzip. But during install (individual package selection) there is a little symbol at the bottom which looks like two blue arrows chasing each other -- click that -- Presto! A flat list comes up so you can pick your favorite packages in collating sequence. Yes, I know how to do it, it's just much more work with mandrake and manddrake seems to leave some obvious defaults off the list. Even XP comes with unzip LOL! Dan
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Onur Kucuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Xmms plugins (not talking about untrustable ones), some good games, that I never could understood why not installed and cannot be selected in the tree view. if you have packages that are not installed when selecting all the groups, tell which one you think are missing. Most packages that people are missing are just errors in the package list. Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. does SuSE has it? has for RedHat they *much* less packages, so install everything is much less dangerous for them. I did test some install everything installs but things get nasty with over 3Gigas of installed packages. rpm gets slow as hell (and install time gets very high), and other bad things happen.
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On 20 Jan 2002, Pixel wrote: Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. does SuSE has it? has for RedHat they *much* less packages, so install everything is much less dangerous for them. Is redhat powertools taken into account? I did test some install everything installs but things get nasty with over 3Gigas of installed packages. rpm gets slow as hell (and install time gets very high), and other bad things happen. This annoyance has been brought up many times before; installing Mandrake RPM seems to be much more slower than installing Redhat RPM, given similarly configured machine, containing similar number of packages. I have no official benchmark to support me, but what I observed is that the installation time grows exponentially for mandrake when number of package increases, while it's more or less linear for redhat. Anybody is sure what's going on that caused such delay, or correct me if I'm wrong? Abel
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
R.I.P. Deaddog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 20 Jan 2002, Pixel wrote: Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. does SuSE has it? has for RedHat they *much* less packages, so install everything is much less dangerous for them. Is redhat powertools taken into account? AFAIK powertools do not exist anymore. Some packages have been included in redhat's main, others have been simply dropped. I did test some install everything installs but things get nasty with over 3Gigas of installed packages. rpm gets slow as hell (and install time gets very high), and other bad things happen. This annoyance has been brought up many times before; installing Mandrake RPM seems to be much more slower than installing Redhat RPM, given similarly configured machine, containing similar number of packages. I have no official benchmark to support me, but what I observed is that the installation time grows exponentially for mandrake when number of package increases, while it's more or less linear for redhat. AFAIK the same would happen with redhat. Here are some figures: 8.1pre_rc1 rpm df time/rpm rpm/df 6 () 82661:26 ext2 500M 1.05 1.24 5 () 89711:38 ext2 500M 1.10 1.25 3 () 94771:46 ext2 500M 1.13 1.22 5 X 145 1272:09 ext2 500M 0.89 1.14 3 X 231 2173:26 ext2 500M 0.89 1.06 4 kde 393 3164:31 ext2 2G 0.69 1.24 4 kde 393 3164:41 ext2 2G 0.72 1.24 4 kde 393 3164:43 ext2 4G 0.72 1.24 5 all 367 3375:02 ext2 500M 0.82 1.09 4 kde+gnome 454 3705:50 ext2 4G 0.77 1.23 4 kde+gnome 454 3706:10 ext2 4G 0.81 1.23 4 kde+gnome 454 3706:24 ext2 4G 0.85 1.23 5 all 489 4065:55 ext2 4G 0.73 1.20 5 all 490 4065:18 ext2 1G 0.65 1.21 4 kd+gn+dsk 594 4947:31 ext2 4G 0.76 1.20 4 prev+dev 827 696 10:27 ext2 4G 0.76 1.19 4 all 1100 988 19:34 ext2 1G 1.07 1.11 3 all 1640 1331 31:33 ext2 2G 1.15 1.23 3 all 1740 1434 39:38 ext2 4G 1.37 1.21 2 all 2252 1843 54:40 ext2 4G 1.46 1.22 -1 all 2490 2048 61:02 ext2 4G 1.47 1.22 The interesting part is the time/rpm when installed size grows: - up until around 1G, it's quite stable (except for very small installs) - with bigger installs, time increase a lot On a 4G rpm database, a simple rpm -e small_package_with_few_dependency takes forever (forever being around 20seconds)
Re[2]: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Xmms plugins (not talking about untrustable ones), some good games, that I never could understood why not installed and cannot be selected in the tree view. P if you have packages that are not installed when selecting all the groups, P tell which one you think are missing. Most packages that people are missing P are just errors in the package list. If you would like, I can send you my auto_inst.cfg, or the rpm list of my box now. I cant guarantee, but I installed on several systems without getting trouble during install/usage with this file. Mandrake seems to be only major distro that does not have an install everything option. P does SuSE has it? Yes. P has for RedHat they *much* less packages, so install everything is much less P dangerous for them. I agree. Redhat has less, and mostly they dont install the packages in the last cds. I dont use it anyway. I Was talking about suse actually. P I did test some install everything installs but things get nasty with over P 3Gigas of installed packages. rpm gets slow as hell (and install time gets P very high), and other bad things happen. That is another issue about mandrake. Have you ever tried suse 7.3pro, selecting full install ? In the same machine,(P4 1.5, 512 MB SD-ram, IBM 45GB ATA-100 7200RPM) talking of only the file copy/install time - MDK , with my full install auto_inst.cfg, took 82 minutes. All 3 cds of mandrake download edition. If I dont use mine, but select all the programs in the tree list, it is about 70 minutes. - Suse 7.3 professional, which is 7 CDs. Last 2 are source etc, but all the 5 cd's are installed. I did a full install, and took 47 minutes. MDK now takes about 4GB disk space, suse taking about 6.2GB. The trick is,I guess, suse installs the first cd, and boots the kernel from hard disk (does not restart the system, just loads the kernel to memory) and continues to install the other cds from the hard drive. There may be other things, could not have time to investigate more. About loading a new kernel (or reloading it with hdd as root) without restarting the pc, http://www.scyld.com/products/beowulf/software/monte.html PS: Did installs on a lot slower machines, and suse still seems to be faster again. Onur Kucuk _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Re[2]: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Onur Kucuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] - MDK , with my full install auto_inst.cfg, took 82 minutes. All 3 cds of mandrake download edition. If I dont use mine, but select all the programs in the tree list, it is about 70 minutes. - Suse 7.3 professional, which is 7 CDs. Last 2 are source etc, but all the 5 cd's are installed. I did a full install, and took 47 minutes. MDK now takes about 4GB disk space, suse taking about 6.2GB. one weird thing i know about SuSE is they are using some kind of rpm --nodeps --force --noscripts foreach rpms. It seems to be the fastest way of installing. But maybe in that case rpm2cpio | cpio -id would be even faster. We have not been able to understand the way they handled the various %post scripts. If someone has better information, it is welcome :) The trick is,I guess, suse installs the first cd, and boots the kernel from hard disk (does not restart the system, just loads the kernel to memory) and continues to install the other cds from the hard drive. There may be other things, could not have time to investigate more. I don't think that's the solution. The reason i think it is not the solution is the sluggishness of rpm with many packages.
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Monday 21 January 2002 00:07, Dan Mack wrote: I've been running cooker on 3 of my systems for a few months now and I find myself missing an option that Redhat has had for a while and that is the 'install everything' checkbox in the install tool. It would have to be ``install most things'' since tools like PostFix and SendMail, or wu-ftpd and ProFTPd and PureFTPd are mutually exclusive. But yes, I miss it. Also, even if you select *everything* by hand with 8.1 (download edition), it's not all installed; there are hundreds of packages left untouched between all three CDs. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
P one weird thing i know about SuSE is they are using some kind of P rpm --nodeps --force --noscripts foreach rpms. P It seems to be the fastest way of installing. But maybe in that case P rpm2cpio | cpio -id would be even faster. P We have not been able to understand the way they handled the various %post P scripts. P If someone has better information, it is welcome :) I am very busy these days, but as soon as I have time, I will try to find out more about it. The thing is, actually, people dont care how their OS is installed. They just only want it to be installed fast. (Honestly if there was a distro that would just copy a few images to my hard drive, stick them together and do the configuration, I would be very glad for the speed.But I know it is useless for many ppl, and it kills the freedom of choice ) As long as the distro is installing faster, and the system does not have errors, it is ok to --nodeps --force --noscripts. But this needs a good investigation and very good/trusty package management. This is something you mdk ppl will decide I guess. The trick is,I guess, suse installs the first cd, and boots the kernel from hard disk (does not restart the system, just loads the kernel to memory) and continues to install the other cds from the hard drive. There may be other things, could not have time to investigate more. P I don't think that's the solution. P The reason i think it is not the solution is the sluggishness of rpm with many P packages. Yes I agree, rpm is really sluggish. But isnt it the package management system defines how much data goes to the rpm database ? Say, there are limitations of minimizing dependencies etc., but, may it be possible to tweak rpms in a way that rpm db is smaller, making it faster? Regards Onur Kucuk _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
[Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
Well... many of us have asked for the same thing, before any final release in the past and the answer has always been the same, we need to get a 'definition' of what 'everything' means... ;-) This time I would dare to say... EVERYTHING means... eveything, (Pixel?) with the exception of: conflicting packages or those with known dependancy problems. Such as wu-ftp vs ProFTP PostFix vs Sendmail, etc... A manual selection of additional packages one wants to be installed after selecting 'mayor groups' is time consuming since we have to go thru zillions of packages... (well... maybe not that many...!) ;-) But, packages such as, cooledit, nt, Nmapfe, avifile_player etc etc should be installed 'if' I 'select' or choose the missing option install everything! sk Well, I agree with you. Please make it reach the list, too, so the people at mandrake will know what the users want. They are trying to make it better, all we need is to inform them about what we think should be changed/corrected. Regards Onur Kucuk Agreed! So... here it goes... to the list!
Re: [Cooker] why no 'install everything' option?
On Sun, 2002-01-20 at 19:33, Sergio Korlowsky wrote: ditto. i hate having to manually install -devel packages even after specifing that i'm running a developer platform. ...just a thought tho, i would imagine this email is just an echo. ;-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
