Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[dan]

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/543896/6-ways-law-enforcement-can-track-terrorists-in-an-encrypted-world/

6 Ways Law Enforcement Can Track Terrorists in an Encrypted World

Nathan Freitas
November 24, 2015

   Government officials want us to believe that encryption is helping
   terrorists, but law enforcement still has plenty of tools to get
   the data.

   The phrase "the terrorists are going dark" has come back in vogue
   after the Paris attacks, referring to assertions that encryption
   is somehow enabling the communication of future attackers to go
   undetected. But the public is being presented with a false choice:
   either we allow law enforcement unfettered access to digital
   communications, or we let the terrorists win. As always, it is
   not that simple.

   It is true that much of the world's communication has shifted
   away from easy-to-intercept text messages and phone calls, to
   mobile apps, such as WhatsApp, Apple Messages, and Telegram,
   which provide free worldwide communications and improved privacy
   and security. Some apps have even added end-to-end "sealed
   envelope" encryption, putting message contents out of reach of
   both law enforcement and the service providers themselves.

   Even so, there is still a great deal of data available that is
   not fully encrypted or even encrypted at all--data that allows
   for the kind of digital detective capabilities that law enforcement
   seek to catch the bad guys. It is disingenuous on all sides to
   pretend it does not.  Some call this metadata, but considering
   the volume and detail of data available, there is nothing meta
   about it. Not all of the approaches to data gathering and intercept
   are clearly legal. Many app developers (including myself) are
   actively working to defend against them and close these gaps,
   as they are often used to unjustly attack and monitor activists,
   journalists, and even estranged loved ones.

   Still, we cannot deny that they exist for now, and so, rather
   than let these data-gathering options linger in the shadows,
   I'll enumerate them here.

   1) If someone is carrying a mobile phone, their every movement,
   phone call, and use of the Internet access is being tracked and
   logged by the mobile service provider. Accessing that data often
   does not require a warrant, just a phone number and a contact
   at the phone company.

   2) Messaging apps like WhatsApp and Telegram require users to
   register their accounts with a working telephone number. Use of
   the app is tied to this number, and to all the phone numbers of
   the people they are communicating with. See number one for what
   you can do with a list of phone numbers.

   3) The kind of encryption implemented in mainstream apps today
   is not automatic. Even in well-regarded implementations by
   WhatsApp and Apple, knowing when and how encryption is active
   and verified is unclear. It is likely possible to disable access
   to or reduce the strength of encryption on a per-user basis,
   without the user knowing.

   4) Even an end-to-end encrypted chat can be monitored if the app
   supports group chat or syncing conversations between multiple
   devices.  If you can compel the app service provider to add a
   new device to an account or participant into a group without
   notifying existing users, then you are in.

   5) Full storage encryption of smartphones is not on by default
   for Android, and only in effect on iOS when the device is powered
   off. Most of these apps are not password-protected on the device
   itself. Get access to a phone with the screen unlocked, or crack
   the screen lock app itself, and you are in. Compel the owner of
   a fingerprint-locked device to unlock it with their thumbprint,
   and you are in. Trick the user into installing (or force their
   app store to do so) a keystroke-logging keyboard or a hidden
   surveillance app and you are in.

   6) Most cloud data is only encrypted to protect it from outside
   attackers, and not from the service provider themselves. Some
   services say, "We encrypt data at rest in the cloud," but they
   mean they do so with an encryption key that they hold, not one
   the user holds. Rather than backdoor the messages in real time,
   just get access to a cloud backup of all the messages, contacts,
   calendars, photos, location data, and more that users often
   unwittingly store there.

   Whether we like it or not, the opportunities for targeted
   surveillance of digital communications are vast and deep, within
   both clearly legal and legally gray areas. I am not encouraging
   legalizing criminal hacking by the police or promoting surreptitious
   methods for infringing on freedom and privacy. In fact, I am a
   firm believer that more encryption is needed, to strengthen our
   personal privacy and defend against actual cybersecurity threats.
   Fundamentally, I hope that through deeper understanding of the
   private d

Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Arshad Noor]

On 12/01/2015 08:34 PM, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:

On 2015-12-01, at 1:40 PM, Arshad Noor  wrote:


It is a "choice amongst losses" only when you believe you are in a zero-sum 
game.  However, there is another choice that can reduce, if not eliminate, violence.


Well sure it would be good to behave in a way that doesn’t result in people 
wanting to attack you; but when looking at securing something, we should always 
assume that there will be those who wish to attack.

I don’t lock my bicycle because I think that everyone is a criminal. I lock it 
because I think that the chances of a criminal noticing it is high enough it 
becomes worthwhile to lock it. And to continue with this analogy, saying “well, 
let’s work towards a world in which everyone has all of the bicycles they need” 
just doesn’t feeling like a realistic approach.

My country, the US, is being hit with small acts of domestic right wing 
terrorism (one can quibble about definitions), but it isn’t organized or 
funded. (And so it is exceedingly difficult to identify attackers or plots 
before they act.) Whatever the merits of the kinds of foreign policy you 
advocate, it really isn’t going to make this threat go away.

I bring that up only to point out that the question of terrorist-like attacks 
will always remain unless one believes in some sort of utopia. But in a utopia 
we wouldn’t need encryption either because nobody would try to read documents 
that they weren’t supposed to. We wouldn’t need authentication and encryption 
in a utopia because everyone would respect each others privacy rights without 
it having to be enforced.

The questions we need to ask about “preventing terrorism” are the same 
questions we ask about “preventing crime”. What powers do we give to the state, 
what costs do we bear, and how much terrorism/crime are will willing to accept.

Just as we don’t give the state unlimited powers to prevent crime, and just as 
we don’t build our houses with solid steel walls with no windows to prevent 
crime, there are things that we shouldn’t do to prevent terrorism.

I think that a huge part of the problem is that people (and politicians) think 
about terrorism in radically different ways than they think about more mundane 
crime. And so returning to your point, sure it is a good idea to build a 
society in which few people are drawn to crime, that doesn’t mean that we can 
avoid the questions of the other choices we have to make about preventing crime.



(I didn't want to respond to this thread originally because of its
potential to veer too far from cryptography - but the counter is that
cryptography is a political football, so I guess some might argue we
are on-topic.  Nonetheless, I would like this to be my last post on
the subject so as to be mindful of people's time; no disrespect
intended if I don't respond to others).


It would be naive of me to assume any kind of utopia is possible
anywhere on earth.  Even in the most idyllic of settings, devoid of
humans, creation and destruction are a constant - it is the most
natural of states.

That said, our behavior towards others should not necessarily be guided
by the ideal as much as the desire to coexist with a minimum of
destruction.  While we cannot ensure everyone has a "bicycle", we can
certainly work towards ensuring everyone has the opportunity to acquire
one - fairly.

States do have a responsibility to protect its citizens, and citizens
need to provide the State with tools to perform their jobs effectively.
But, States have a *greater* responsibility in showing they can be
trusted with the powers granted to them by its citizens.  If the State
cannot - or chooses not to - maintain transparency in carrying out its
functions [1], then citizens are justified in questioning whether the
State has a right to enhanced powers.

Last, but not least, the astute amongst the forum will have realized,
that while the discussion appeared to focus on our dealings with people
in foreign nations, the principles apply - even more so - towards our
dealings with people within our country.

Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.

[1] 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

There is baseless hatred. Which is based on irrational ideas.  Such hate 
is basically neurotic.  No amount bicycles will change that.  Which is 
why the idea of Christian love vs. Islamic Jihad is so ridiculous.


Ppl do think about terrorism differently and make irrational decisions.  
Which is why ppl cede "war powers" to the gov't to stop terrorism.  And, 
politians will go overboard in trying to defend their country against 
terrorism.  Because one mistake is one too many.  Not just in lives.  
But, in panic, fear, economics.


In this debate about over reacting to terrorism, I think the long term 
effect of just one terror act is not taken into account.


Ex.  After 9-11, the economy, especially in the NYC area took a nose 
dive.  The theater district was hurt terribly for a year. Restaurants 
suffered for a year very badly-a bit less than theater.  You could go 
out on a Saturday night and find a parking spot.  That's an unheard of 
phenomenon in NYC.  Jobs, esp. IT, just dried up as major corporations 
moved all their operations out of NYC to their backup sites in 
Pennsylvania. Something that was hidden quite well from the public.  
That cost lots of ppl lots of jobs.  Ppl without jobs don't buy.  Sales 
across the board went down.  Scared ppl don't go shopping.  Lots of ppl 
were forced to move out.  Couldn't pay those high rents.  Landlords in 
NYC got stuck with properties they couldn't rent.  Another unheard of 
phenomenon.  So, an act of terrorism is not just about the few ppl who die.


On 12/1/2015 11:34 PM, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:

On 2015-12-01, at 1:40 PM, Arshad Noor  wrote:


It is a "choice amongst losses" only when you believe you are in a zero-sum 
game.  However, there is another choice that can reduce, if not eliminate, violence.

Well sure it would be good to behave in a way that doesn’t result in people 
wanting to attack you; but when looking at securing something, we should always 
assume that there will be those who wish to attack.

I don’t lock my bicycle because I think that everyone is a criminal. I lock it 
because I think that the chances of a criminal noticing it is high enough it 
becomes worthwhile to lock it. And to continue with this analogy, saying “well, 
let’s work towards a world in which everyone has all of the bicycles they need” 
just doesn’t feeling like a realistic approach.

My country, the US, is being hit with small acts of domestic right wing 
terrorism (one can quibble about definitions), but it isn’t organized or 
funded. (And so it is exceedingly difficult to identify attackers or plots 
before they act.) Whatever the merits of the kinds of foreign policy you 
advocate, it really isn’t going to make this threat go away.

I bring that up only to point out that the question of terrorist-like attacks 
will always remain unless one believes in some sort of utopia. But in a utopia 
we wouldn’t need encryption either because nobody would try to read documents 
that they weren’t supposed to. We wouldn’t need authentication and encryption 
in a utopia because everyone would respect each others privacy rights without 
it having to be enforced.

The questions we need to ask about “preventing terrorism” are the same 
questions we ask about “preventing crime”. What powers do we give to the state, 
what costs do we bear, and how much terrorism/crime are will willing to accept.

Just as we don’t give the state unlimited powers to prevent crime, and just as 
we don’t build our houses with solid steel walls with no windows to prevent 
crime, there are things that we shouldn’t do to prevent terrorism.

I think that a huge part of the problem is that people (and politicians) think 
about terrorism in radically different ways than they think about more mundane 
crime. And so returning to your point, sure it is a good idea to build a 
society in which few people are drawn to crime, that doesn’t mean that we can 
avoid the questions of the other choices we have to make about preventing crime.

Cheers,

-j

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

On 2015-12-01, at 1:40 PM, Arshad Noor  wrote:

> It is a "choice amongst losses" only when you believe you are in a zero-sum 
> game.  However, there is another choice that can reduce, if not eliminate, 
> violence.

Well sure it would be good to behave in a way that doesn’t result in people 
wanting to attack you; but when looking at securing something, we should always 
assume that there will be those who wish to attack.

I don’t lock my bicycle because I think that everyone is a criminal. I lock it 
because I think that the chances of a criminal noticing it is high enough it 
becomes worthwhile to lock it. And to continue with this analogy, saying “well, 
let’s work towards a world in which everyone has all of the bicycles they need” 
just doesn’t feeling like a realistic approach.

My country, the US, is being hit with small acts of domestic right wing 
terrorism (one can quibble about definitions), but it isn’t organized or 
funded. (And so it is exceedingly difficult to identify attackers or plots 
before they act.) Whatever the merits of the kinds of foreign policy you 
advocate, it really isn’t going to make this threat go away.

I bring that up only to point out that the question of terrorist-like attacks 
will always remain unless one believes in some sort of utopia. But in a utopia 
we wouldn’t need encryption either because nobody would try to read documents 
that they weren’t supposed to. We wouldn’t need authentication and encryption 
in a utopia because everyone would respect each others privacy rights without 
it having to be enforced.

The questions we need to ask about “preventing terrorism” are the same 
questions we ask about “preventing crime”. What powers do we give to the state, 
what costs do we bear, and how much terrorism/crime are will willing to accept.

Just as we don’t give the state unlimited powers to prevent crime, and just as 
we don’t build our houses with solid steel walls with no windows to prevent 
crime, there are things that we shouldn’t do to prevent terrorism.

I think that a huge part of the problem is that people (and politicians) think 
about terrorism in radically different ways than they think about more mundane 
crime. And so returning to your point, sure it is a good idea to build a 
society in which few people are drawn to crime, that doesn’t mean that we can 
avoid the questions of the other choices we have to make about preventing crime.

Cheers,

-j

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Arshad Noor]

On 11/30/2015 09:19 PM, d...@geer.org wrote:


I would find it refreshing were Brennan to present
said electorate with the choice between [1] content analysis (hence
crypto side doors and the exposure of content), [2] traffic analysis
(hence data retention at a level heretofore unseen and the cataloged
exposure of real social networks), and [3] a willing resolve to tolerate
the occasional terrorist success.  It is a choice amongst losses.


(I know I should refrain from responding to this, but against my better 
judgment, here goes...).


It is a "choice amongst losses" only when you believe you are in a 
zero-sum game.  However, there is another choice that can reduce, if not 
eliminate, violence.


Many humans, like rats in laboratories and in the real-world, will 
attack (even to their own detriment) when cornered and given no 
alternative (to resolve their grievances).  It requires keen insight and 
an extraordinary strength of character to espouse non-violence in the 
face of injustice - but it is possible. The 20th century alone has given 
us many examples: M K Gandhi, M L King, N Mandela.


When corporations in democratic nations do business with despots or just 
plain corrupt business-men in countries that do not believe in the rule 
of law, democratic nations engender an oppressive environment in the 
trading partner's nation.  The despots and corrupt business-men - to 
ensure their personal profit - must oppress people who attempt to shine 
a light on the corruption.  What begins as the suppression of a few 
honest people becomes a systemic disease that corrupts the way of life 
in such nations.  Soon, one starts seeing symptoms of oppression: 
inequality, bigotry, the rule-of-might, class-distinctions, eventually 
leading to violence.  History is replete with examples of this disease.


What we are witnessing today is a system that has undergone so much 
entropy, that cracks in the system are becoming more than visible, 
releasing pent-up frustration in random acts of violence.


It has always been my opinion that a reasonable person, if provided an 
outlet for their physical and mental energy through work that results in 
a decent life for themselves and their family, will have neither time 
nor desire to express their opinions through violence.


When democratic nations express their desire to preserve their "way of 
life", it is critical we translate that desire into actions on how we 
deal with trading partners.  We *always* have the choice to walk away 
from a corrupt/unethical business deal and deny the corrupt person the 
opportunity for oppression of any kind.  It is when we choose not to 
walk away, is when we start sowing the seeds of violence.


Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.

P.S. Let this response not be misunderstood as providing an excuse for 
violence.  I do not believe violence is an answer to any problem.  But, 
I also recognize that violence is not the disease - it is a visible 
symptom of a larger problem; and if we want to eliminate the symptoms, 
we need to identify and eliminate the underlying problem (which is 
almost always, a corruption of the mind, body and/or values).

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

the logical choice, as absurd as it may seem, is actually 3. allow for 
the occassional terrorist success.
because, empirically, it works that way.  it does happen from to time 
even with all our current measures.  and, intuitively, the high level 
surveillance doesn't catch these ppl anyway.  these are people who 
really really don't want to be found.  ex. heightened airport security 
hasn't caught terrorists. lots of petty thieves and money launderers. 
but, no terrorists.


On 12/1/2015 12:19 AM, d...@geer.org wrote:

In dealing with high level decision makers, the best strategy is
always to provide three options and have the decision maker choose
amongst them.  Taking the American electorate as that high level
decision maker, I would find it refreshing were Brennan to present
said electorate with the choice between [1] content analysis (hence
crypto side doors and the exposure of content), [2] traffic analysis
(hence data retention at a level heretofore unseen and the cataloged
exposure of real social networks), and [3] a willing resolve to tolerate
the occasional terrorist success.  It is a choice amongst losses.

--dan


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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[dan]

In dealing with high level decision makers, the best strategy is
always to provide three options and have the decision maker choose
amongst them.  Taking the American electorate as that high level
decision maker, I would find it refreshing were Brennan to present
said electorate with the choice between [1] content analysis (hence
crypto side doors and the exposure of content), [2] traffic analysis
(hence data retention at a level heretofore unseen and the cataloged
exposure of real social networks), and [3] a willing resolve to tolerate
the occasional terrorist success.  It is a choice amongst losses.

--dan


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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

Were it not for the intellectual stimulation of working with crypto,

i think that's the only real reason to work with crypto.

On 11/20/2015 10:09 A
M, Arshad Noor wrote:

On 11/20/2015 04:42 AM, Notify wrote:



If crypto is the path to commercial riches, it would come as a 
surprise to the capitalists on Sand Hill Road.




Couldn't agree more.  Were it not for the intellectual stimulation of
working with crypto, I might actually be making a lot more money.
Heck, I was making a lot more money 20 years ago just telling people
how to use UNIX!!

Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[John Young]

Very small number of cryptographers work outside of governments,
corporations, universities, their own companies, and NGOs,
invest in crypto ventures. Certainly none should work for free,
but as the cryptographers Key F1, you get the crypto you pay for.
And nobody gets anything as strong as the top official payers,
excupatory slogans are "don't expect military grade, don't expect
defiance of NSLs, do expect to be accused of faulty user
implementation"

Some years ago strong free crypto was more plentiful than now, more
recently the smell of Starbucks crypto has become as irresistable as
Greenwald said of his Omidyar harem opportunity, or Mudge said of
DoD's: "give up free love, join our comsec escort service, be poor
no more!"

Public benefit crypto has become a luxury good by promoting commercial
producers who contribute to NGOs, excusing breaks and hacks of allegedly
highly reliable tools, and most certainly a capitalist allure to sell 
vulnerable

crypto as invulnerable (except for those irresistable search subpoenas),
not unlike public benefit journalism which wields a heavy redaction tool,
or for that matter public benefit education enslaved by donors in which
top salaries are earned by exploiting enthusiasts and urging crypto
like perfect teeth everywhere, especially sugar-rich clouds and IoT.

This dual-hatted corruptive stain has blemished civil liberties which
has also become a luxury good like ratty blue jeans and disfiguring tatoos.
ACLU, aong others, is totally prostituted by large salaries and oligarchish
self-congratulatory fetes. Terrorism has been highly beneficial to all
dancers in the persistent crypto balls where natsec advocates and
comsec opponents perform together like pols and journos at the
White House Correspondents shindig and worldwide lecture and
conference circuits.

Nostalgia of International Cryptography Freedom before the
luxury market took command by way of enduring comsec terror:

https://cryptome.org/crypto-free.htm



At 10:09 AM 11/20/2015, you wrote:

On 11/20/2015 04:42 AM, Notify wrote:



If crypto is the path to commercial riches, it would come as a 
surprise to the capitalists on Sand Hill Road.


Couldn't agree more.  Were it not for the intellectual stimulation of
working with crypto, I might actually be making a lot more money.
Heck, I was making a lot more money 20 years ago just telling people
how to use UNIX!!

Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Arshad Noor]

On 11/20/2015 04:42 AM, Notify wrote:



If crypto is the path to commercial riches, it would come as a surprise to the 
capitalists on Sand Hill Road.



Couldn't agree more.  Were it not for the intellectual stimulation of
working with crypto, I might actually be making a lot more money.
Heck, I was making a lot more money 20 years ago just telling people
how to use UNIX!!

Arshad Noor
StrongAuth, Inc.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

yeah, crypto is not the path to riches.

Brown, in his famous survey on maps said about alchemy, 'If one could 
figure out how to turn lead into gold, what would that achieve?  It 
would cheapen the price of gold.  Only a gov't / prince / king could use 
it.  If a commoner did it, he'd either be killed or kidnapped to do it 
for someone else.  So, why figure out how to turn lead into gold?'


I think in a certain measure, that applies to crypto too.  The best is 
in the hands of the gov't for a reason.  They need it.  If we never 
shared secrets, we would never have trust.  Society would break down.  
It is not cost effective for the average person, even in a lot of 
business situations.  And, if you make crypto that good, the gov't, your 
own or an enemy gov't or; the mob, will come after you to coerce you to 
work for them.  Money you will not make.


my 2c

don't remember Phil Zimmerman saying that.  not in his book on PGP for sure.

On 11/20/2015 7:42 AM, Notify wrote:

Summarizing, John Young says crypto has served bad motives and is engaged 
commerce for money. Since crypto can be sold to governments (those who don’t 
employ the majority of top mathematicians, I assume), it is oppressive and some 
people make money selling it.

I doubt there is a prison, spy headquarters, or torture chamber in the world 
that did not begin with the pencil of an architect. For money. What shall we do 
about architects?

I think it may have been Phil Zimmermann who pointed out that the most 
elaborate and expensive of homes spend only a pittance on the door locks. If 
crypto is the path to commercial riches, it would come as a surprise to the 
capitalists on Sand Hill Road.

Ed Stone



On Nov 19, 2015, at 8:21 PM, cryptography-requ...@randombit.net wrote:

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:04:05 -0500
From: John Young 
To: cryptography@randombit.net
Subject: Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong
Cryptography and Edward Snowden
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 01:21 AM 11/19/2015, you wrote:


how did hominids manage prior to crypto?

Pretty much the way most hominids do today. And will continue
to do the same way until crypto becomes normalized (if ever)
and less esoteric, cultish, obnoxious, condescending, vain,
whiney, excuse making. And above all these negative traits,
eager to sell products to authoritarians, governments, cults,
criminals, oligarchs, banks, gamblers, drug dealers, yadda.

Plenty of ways to avoid crypto as it has existed for its
very long history of serving the most evil, treacherous,
manipulative, deceptive, cheating, lying hominids on
earth and interstellar.

Crypto has a wretched history of helping a few harm millions.

Maybe it will change, but there has been a counter authority
of violence effort for only a couple of decades, and during
those decades the common practice of secretkeeping, lying
and cheating for crypto money making has grown even among
those loudly proclaiming the public benefits. PKC has indeed
enriched some, and others striving to get on that evil-doing
train of dual-hats and dual-use and dual-pontification.

As the NY Times said of John Brennan, hard to believe anything
crypto advocates have to say due to the far greater number of
crypto sleazeball hominids reaping rewards of aiding governments
than crypto hominid honorables aiding one another.

Spies and cryptographers spread secrets pox. Stay far away for good
health. Do not adopt that language everywhere.

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Notify]

Summarizing, John Young says crypto has served bad motives and is engaged 
commerce for money. Since crypto can be sold to governments (those who don’t 
employ the majority of top mathematicians, I assume), it is oppressive and some 
people make money selling it. 

I doubt there is a prison, spy headquarters, or torture chamber in the world 
that did not begin with the pencil of an architect. For money. What shall we do 
about architects?

I think it may have been Phil Zimmermann who pointed out that the most 
elaborate and expensive of homes spend only a pittance on the door locks. If 
crypto is the path to commercial riches, it would come as a surprise to the 
capitalists on Sand Hill Road.

Ed Stone


> On Nov 19, 2015, at 8:21 PM, cryptography-requ...@randombit.net wrote:
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:04:05 -0500
> From: John Young 
> To: cryptography@randombit.net
> Subject: Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong
>   Cryptography and Edward Snowden
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> At 01:21 AM 11/19/2015, you wrote:
> 
>> how did hominids manage prior to crypto?
> 
> Pretty much the way most hominids do today. And will continue
> to do the same way until crypto becomes normalized (if ever)
> and less esoteric, cultish, obnoxious, condescending, vain,
> whiney, excuse making. And above all these negative traits,
> eager to sell products to authoritarians, governments, cults,
> criminals, oligarchs, banks, gamblers, drug dealers, yadda.
> 
> Plenty of ways to avoid crypto as it has existed for its
> very long history of serving the most evil, treacherous,
> manipulative, deceptive, cheating, lying hominids on
> earth and interstellar.
> 
> Crypto has a wretched history of helping a few harm millions.
> 
> Maybe it will change, but there has been a counter authority
> of violence effort for only a couple of decades, and during
> those decades the common practice of secretkeeping, lying
> and cheating for crypto money making has grown even among
> those loudly proclaiming the public benefits. PKC has indeed
> enriched some, and others striving to get on that evil-doing
> train of dual-hats and dual-use and dual-pontification.
> 
> As the NY Times said of John Brennan, hard to believe anything
> crypto advocates have to say due to the far greater number of
> crypto sleazeball hominids reaping rewards of aiding governments
> than crypto hominid honorables aiding one another.
> 
> Spies and cryptographers spread secrets pox. Stay far away for good
> health. Do not adopt that language everywhere.

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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

u have nothing to fear, if u have nothing to hide.  said, the Nazis and 
Communists.  so, if you need workers to build a remote railway.  and, no 
one wants to work there.  instead of offering incentives, accuse them of 
crimes never committed.  from all those things they didn't have to hide. 
or, just, to keep the rest in line, send a few off to some camps, to 
never be heard from again.  because of all that stuff that they didn't 
have to hide.


anyone remember McCarthy?  like the idea doesn't live on?

On 11/19/2015 7:04 AM, John Young wrote:

At 01:21 AM 11/19/2015, you wrote:


how did hominids manage prior to crypto?


Pretty much the way most hominids do today. And will continue
to do the same way until crypto becomes normalized (if ever)
and less esoteric, cultish, obnoxious, condescending, vain,
whiney, excuse making. And above all these negative traits,
eager to sell products to authoritarians, governments, cults,
criminals, oligarchs, banks, gamblers, drug dealers, yadda.

Plenty of ways to avoid crypto as it has existed for its
very long history of serving the most evil, treacherous,
manipulative, deceptive, cheating, lying hominids on
earth and interstellar.

Crypto has a wretched history of helping a few harm millions.

Maybe it will change, but there has been a counter authority
of violence effort for only a couple of decades, and during
those decades the common practice of secretkeeping, lying
and cheating for crypto money making has grown even among
those loudly proclaiming the public benefits. PKC has indeed
enriched some, and others striving to get on that evil-doing
train of dual-hats and dual-use and dual-pontification.

As the NY Times said of John Brennan, hard to believe anything
crypto advocates have to say due to the far greater number of
crypto sleazeball hominids reaping rewards of aiding governments
than crypto hominid honorables aiding one another.

Spies and cryptographers spread secrets pox. Stay far away for good
health. Do not adopt that language everywhere.




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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Benjamin Kreuter]

On Thu, 2015-11-19 at 06:21 +, mtm wrote:
> how did hominids manage prior to crypto?

The same way we managed before writing -- ciphers of various kinds have
been in use for all of recorded history.

-- Ben



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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[John Young]

At 01:21 AM 11/19/2015, you wrote:


how did hominids manage prior to crypto?


Pretty much the way most hominids do today. And will continue
to do the same way until crypto becomes normalized (if ever)
and less esoteric, cultish, obnoxious, condescending, vain,
whiney, excuse making. And above all these negative traits,
eager to sell products to authoritarians, governments, cults,
criminals, oligarchs, banks, gamblers, drug dealers, yadda.

Plenty of ways to avoid crypto as it has existed for its
very long history of serving the most evil, treacherous,
manipulative, deceptive, cheating, lying hominids on
earth and interstellar.

Crypto has a wretched history of helping a few harm millions.

Maybe it will change, but there has been a counter authority
of violence effort for only a couple of decades, and during
those decades the common practice of secretkeeping, lying
and cheating for crypto money making has grown even among
those loudly proclaiming the public benefits. PKC has indeed
enriched some, and others striving to get on that evil-doing
train of dual-hats and dual-use and dual-pontification.

As the NY Times said of John Brennan, hard to believe anything
crypto advocates have to say due to the far greater number of
crypto sleazeball hominids reaping rewards of aiding governments
than crypto hominid honorables aiding one another.

Spies and cryptographers spread secrets pox. Stay far away for good
health. Do not adopt that language everywhere.




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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

i'm in the middle of reading Bruce Schneier's lastest book, "Data and 
Goliath".  sheds a lot of light on this subject.  very interesting 
book.  very insightful.   a good read.  i recommend it.  i picked it up 
to understand Google, scroogling, big data and the computer mechanics of 
corporate spying better.  but, he goes deeply into this subject of 
spying on citizens.  being able to kill with metadata alone.  [CIA 
quote] etc.


he makes a good point that we as mammals, fell like prey if being 
watched and can't function fully.  and, the younger generation is quite 
desensitized to most of this spying.  they post their love lives on 
facebook and are flamed when breaking up. the younger generation is much 
more accepting of what the older generation would consider embarassing 
and private.


all of this stuff is a double edged sword.  we can spy on citizens for 
terrorism or to silence political dissidents.  if we limit free speech 
to prevent terrorism, human rights activists won't be able to speak 
either.  best analogy, bank robbers use cars, roads, diners and 
electricity.  but, we don't illegalize cars, roads, diners and 
electricity.  because, most people don't use them for robbing banks.  
ditto crypto.


people still use envelopes; have locks on their doors, close the 
bathroom and get hotel rooms for "adult activities".  they are, in the 
majority of the time, doing nothing illegal.


imho, his analogy with the heightened airport security does apply to 
crypto and mass surveillance.  they've caught a lot of petty theives.  
but, no terrorists.  this is intuitive.  the population at large has 
noticed this.  ditto crypto n mass surveillance.


the corrollary is, the billions of dollars spent spying on citizens in 
the name of protecting us from terrorism, is more than just a waste of 
money--it's a dereliction of duty!  i don't care how much the gov't 
spends on fighting terrorism or; how it is done.  but, it should work!  
they shouldn't be sitting on their behinds reading oujie boards to find 
terrorists either!  this isn't the TVA workfare pgm.


also, he confirms my simple logic, if there is a backdoor, anyone can go 
through it.  "What one man can do, another man can undo." whether a 
foreign gov't or criminal, sooner or later, someone body you don't want 
to, will come through that backdoor.  either we make it safe for 
everyone.  or, we make it insecure and surveilable for everyone.


and, finally, someone else talks about the defects of profiling, all the 
false positives [and false negatives].  not to mention the incorrect 
math and statistical analysis. profiles are guidelines at best.  not 
definitions.  [my 2c]  he adds the cost of the human intervention and 
investigation necessary to correct the incorrect assessments.


do they not profile political activists?  your medical condition? from 
logged purchases?  where is the right and wrong in this?


and, they collect so much data, no one knows what's in it. unless, a 
flag goes off.  which, may not happen.  but, when it does, digging 
through the archives might help. [my 2c]


we have already opened our world to a new kind of discrimination that is 
non-combatible.  apply for a job.  they put your name in google and 
twitter and facebook and; see what comes up.  even if it is private.  my 
hunch is, they give it to PIs who do break the laws to find this info.  
and then, "we found someone more qualified for the job."  even if you 
scrub your google listings, there are always bread crumbs.


with everyone looking for the right search terms, sending ridiculous job 
offers to ppl based upon chumming resumes without human intervention.  
you may be lucky, if they never considered you anyway.


imho, this crypto warmongering is just using fear for control and 
justification of huge bureaucracies that are inefficacious to the task 
assigned.


On 11/19/2015 12:25 AM, grarpamp wrote:

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Ted W.  wrote:

And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
encrypted channels for most of their planning. Surprise surprise:

Which means absolutely nothing to these anti crypto people.
And is no excuse for you to quit deploying crypto and fighting them.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[grarpamp]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:21 AM, mtm  wrote:
> how did hominids manage prior to crypto?

Papyrus sealed in wax via trusted courier with promise of
sword to neck for peeking, capture, or failed delivery.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[mtm]

how did hominids manage prior to crypto?
On Nov 18, 2015 11:26 PM, "grarpamp"  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Ted W.  wrote:
> > And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
> > encrypted channels for most of their planning. Surprise surprise:
>
> Which means absolutely nothing to these anti crypto people.
> And is no excuse for you to quit deploying crypto and fighting them.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[grarpamp]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Ted W.  wrote:
> And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
> encrypted channels for most of their planning. Surprise surprise:

Which means absolutely nothing to these anti crypto people.
And is no excuse for you to quit deploying crypto and fighting them.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Ted W.]

And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
encrypted channels for most of their planning. Surprise surprise:

http://bit.ly/1WZFM9H
(https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after-endless-demonization-encryption-police-find-paris-attackers-coordinated-via-unencrypted-sms.shtml)

On 11/17/2015 01:39 PM, Givon Zirkind wrote:
> imho, the crypto involved is not the issue.  not having boots on the
> ground, good intel, good spies who can walk and talk like the enemy, is
> the real issue.  there was no crypto in the false i.d. papers used to
> gain entry.  there is no crypto in exploiting the humanitarian aid being
> given to syrian refugees.  these people operate in unconnected cells. 
> how much communication can there be; once an idea is hatched; a plan
> formed and; put into motion--from a few secret meetings.  esp. since
> they know enough to have to maintain radio silence.
> 
> On 11/17/2015 12:38 PM, Justin F wrote:
>>> "This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a
>>> few of which get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported,
>>> unsacrelized, unheroricized, unencrypted)."
>> It's actually amazing, if you have a story and documentation and its a
>> bombshell to a point that it makes you question the accuracy due to
>> your own belief structure (id est FOIA responses are required to be
>> truthful, courts are always impartial, etc); the biggest problem is
>> actually finding someone whom is willing to look up from their smart
>> phone long enough to listen to a non-trivial story.
>>
>> What an incredibly indifferent society we've become.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:06 AM, John Young  wrote:
>>> Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from CIA Director's full
>>> speech
>>> and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.
>>>
>>> http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf
>>>
>>> To be sure, commentators must promote their products to flatter their
>>> consumers as do spies, officials and
>>> armaments (crypto) producers.
>>>
>>> Officials buy the armaments to gain votes and post-service
>>> directorships,
>>> word artists blow wind to fan the flames.
>>>
>>> "This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a
>>> few of
>>> which get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported, unsacrelized,
>>> unheroricized, unencrypted).
>>>
>>> Hard to tell the difference between opportunistic warmongerers or
>>> anti-warmongerers, so ying and yang in complicity.
>>>
>>> At 10:03 AM 11/17/2015, you wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
>>> 2.
>>> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>>>
>>>
>>> <>> lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
>>> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption
>>> catalyzed
>>> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
>>> back doors>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <>> trying to
>>> convince people of such a blatant, easily disproven falsehood:
>>> namely, that
>>> Terrorists learned to hide their communications from Snowden’s
>>> revelations? They do it because of how many benefits there are from
>>> swindling people to believe this. To begin with, U.S officials are eager
>>> here to demonize far more than just Snowden
>>> They want to demonize encryption generally as well as any companies that
>>> offer it. Indeed, as these media accounts show, they’ve been trying
>>> for
>>> two decades to equate the use of encryption — anything that keeps
>>> them out
>>> of people’s private onlinee communications — with aiding and
>>> abetting The
>>> Terrorists>>
>>>
>>> <>> how and
>>> why ISIS was able to spring up seemingly out of nowhere and be so
>>> powerful,
>>> able to blow up a Russian passenger plane, a market in Beirut, and the
>>> streets of Paris in a single week. That’s the one question Western
>>> officials are most desperate not to be asked, so directing people’s
>>> ire to
>>> Edward Snowden and strong encryption is beneficial in the extreme>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <>> and
>>> powerful. There are many causes, but a leading one is the role played
>>> by the
>>> U.S. and its “allies in the region†(i.e., Gulf tyrannies) in arming
>>> them>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[grarpamp]

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Givon Zirkind  wrote:
> imho, the crypto involved is not the issue.  not having boots on the ground,
> good intel, good spies who can walk and talk like the enemy, is the real
> issue.

Exactly. Governments have had at least 15 years to strap those boots,
and certainly have some good ones. These days it's probably just
as interesting as USA vs. USSR in that regard... plots, schemes,
double and triple agents... the spy game.

It's interesting what other perhaps complementary and/or parallel
forms of intel and boots have sprung up. Though best examples
are surely not seen, wrapped in closeness to government agencies
or other allegiences, and these links cover only one small theatre
among the list of things any agents, actors and mafioso have always
had an interest in... yet one can begin to get the idea... just how
deep does this sort of online game go...

https://twitter.com/TorReaper/status/66126621373218
http://www.ghostsec.org/
http://pastebin.com/search?q=isdratetp4donyfy
https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-November/010940.html

> there was no crypto in the false i.d. papers used to gain entry.
> there is no crypto in exploiting the humanitarian aid being given to syrian
> refugees.  these people operate in unconnected cells.  how much
> communication can there be; once an idea is hatched; a plan formed and; put
> into motion--from a few secret meetings.  esp. since they know enough to
> have to maintain radio silence.

Like volunteering for missionary, cash and a blessing at sendoff
is still a very hard problem to crack. Unless you become confidant
of both Padre and Church itself, or simply become them...

Regardless, if any of this affects your area you should definitely
have your talking points and counter solutions lined up, because
the exposure and fields of play are growing and it's not going away.
Welcome to the connected world.
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[grarpamp]

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:06 AM, John Young  wrote:
> Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from CIA Director's full speech
> and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.
>
> http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf

> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>
> fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
> back doors

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/paris-attacks-cia-director-john-brennan-what-he-gets-wrong-about-encryption-backdoors/
DNI et al... looking and waiting for "the perfect example"... cue the
911 conspiracies...

http://techcrunch.com/2015/11/17/the-blame-game/
So let’s not be taken in by false flags flown by anonymous officials
trying to mask bad political decision-making. And let’s redouble our
efforts to fight bad policy which seeks to entrench a failed ideology
of mass surveillance — instead of focusing intelligence resources
where they are really needed

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/after-paris-encryption-will-be-a-key-issue-in-the-2016-race/

http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/16/9742182/uk-surveillance-paris-attacks
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319037/We-spies-powers-need-says-LORD-CARLILE.html
"We MUST now give our spies the powers they need", says LORD CARLILE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
The Enabling Act, when used ruthlessly and with authority, virtually
assured that Government could thereafter constitutionally exercise
dictatorial power without legal objection.
They offered the possibility of friendly co-operation, promising not
to threaten the Lawmakers, the President, the States or the Churches
if granted the emergency powers.

http://www.ibtimes.com/paris-terror-attack-intelligence-failure-not-snowdens-fault-break-down-communication-2185255
Intelligence Failure Is Not Snowden’s Fault But A Break Down Of
Communication and Cooperation

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/world/europe/encrypted-messaging-apps-face-new-scrutiny-over-possible-role-in-paris-attacks.html
Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible Role in Paris Attacks
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Givon Zirkind]

imho, the crypto involved is not the issue.  not having boots on the 
ground, good intel, good spies who can walk and talk like the enemy, is 
the real issue.  there was no crypto in the false i.d. papers used to 
gain entry.  there is no crypto in exploiting the humanitarian aid being 
given to syrian refugees.  these people operate in unconnected cells.  
how much communication can there be; once an idea is hatched; a plan 
formed and; put into motion--from a few secret meetings.  esp. since 
they know enough to have to maintain radio silence.


On 11/17/2015 12:38 PM, Justin F wrote:

"This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a few of which 
get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported,
unsacrelized, unheroricized, unencrypted)."

It's actually amazing, if you have a story and documentation and its a
bombshell to a point that it makes you question the accuracy due to
your own belief structure (id est FOIA responses are required to be
truthful, courts are always impartial, etc); the biggest problem is
actually finding someone whom is willing to look up from their smart
phone long enough to listen to a non-trivial story.

What an incredibly indifferent society we've become.


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:06 AM, John Young  wrote:

Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from CIA Director's full speech
and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.

http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf

To be sure, commentators must promote their products to flatter their
consumers as do spies, officials and
armaments (crypto) producers.

Officials buy the armaments to gain votes and post-service directorships,
word artists blow wind to fan the flames.

"This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a few of
which get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported, unsacrelized,
unheroricized, unencrypted).

Hard to tell the difference between opportunistic warmongerers or
anti-warmongerers, so ying and yang in complicity.

At 10:03 AM 11/17/2015, you wrote:

1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
2.
https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/

<>


<>

<>


<>


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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[Justin F]

>"This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a few of 
>which get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported,
> unsacrelized, unheroricized, unencrypted)."

It's actually amazing, if you have a story and documentation and its a
bombshell to a point that it makes you question the accuracy due to
your own belief structure (id est FOIA responses are required to be
truthful, courts are always impartial, etc); the biggest problem is
actually finding someone whom is willing to look up from their smart
phone long enough to listen to a non-trivial story.

What an incredibly indifferent society we've become.


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:06 AM, John Young  wrote:
> Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from CIA Director's full speech
> and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.
>
> http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf
>
> To be sure, commentators must promote their products to flatter their
> consumers as do spies, officials and
> armaments (crypto) producers.
>
> Officials buy the armaments to gain votes and post-service directorships,
> word artists blow wind to fan the flames.
>
> "This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except the slaughtered, a few of
> which get ritual mourning (most ignored, unreported, unsacrelized,
> unheroricized, unencrypted).
>
> Hard to tell the difference between opportunistic warmongerers or
> anti-warmongerers, so ying and yang in complicity.
>
> At 10:03 AM 11/17/2015, you wrote:
>
> 1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
> 2.
> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>
> < lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
> back doors>>
>
>
> < convince people of such a blatant, easily disproven falsehood: namely, that
> Terrorists learned to hide their communications from Snowden’s
> revelations? They do it because of how many benefits there are from
> swindling people to believe this. To begin with, U.S officials are eager
> here to demonize far more than just Snowden
> They want to demonize encryption generally as well as any companies that
> offer it. Indeed, as these media accounts show, they’ve been trying for
> two decades to equate the use of encryption — anything that keeps them out
> of people’s private onlinee communications — with aiding and abetting The
> Terrorists>>
>
> < why ISIS was able to spring up seemingly out of nowhere and be so powerful,
> able to blow up a Russian passenger plane, a market in Beirut, and the
> streets of Paris in a single week. That’s the one question Western
> officials are most desperate not to be asked, so directing people’s ire to
> Edward Snowden and strong encryption is beneficial in the extreme>>
>
>
> < powerful. There are many causes, but a leading one is the role played by the
> U.S. and its “allies in the region†(i.e., Gulf tyrannies) in arming
> them>>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden

[John Young]

Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from 
CIA Director's full speech and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.


http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf

To be sure, commentators must promote their 
products to flatter their consumers as do spies, officials and

armaments (crypto) producers.

Officials buy the armaments to gain votes and 
post-service directorships, word artists blow wind to fan the flames.


"This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except 
the slaughtered, a few of which get ritual 
mourning (most ignored, unreported, unsacrelized, unheroricized, unencrypted).


Hard to tell the difference between opportunistic 
warmongerers or anti-warmongerers, so ying and yang in complicity.


At 10:03 AM 11/17/2015, you wrote:

1. 
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
2. 
https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/


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