Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Listen -up Barb and Jim, This is my list to run as I wish. I can expose myself to any idea I wish. If you believe that my and many others are "simply unable to bear the discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. " You are sadly mistaken. I do not have to, nor will I sustain promulugation of disruption and 'evil'. Racism and nazism are evil created by man. That is were evil comes from, man. IMHO Go look in the archives, Hawk and his psuedonymphette Charlene added very few informational posts and if you read their posts, most are very disruptive and dissension creating. All of a sudden the lIst was topping over its 100 a message limit everyday and there is still 'stupid' dissension and discussion going on. The utility of the list is a big concern, for with more traffic comes problems of time and functionality of the list and then dealing with the 'problem'. For the problem must be dealt with or one is left with the spectacle such as alt.conspiracy, which is awash with " ideas directly challenge" your "own world view. " So if you wish to challenge your world view then go right ahead. Go to alt.conspiracy and wallow. I have found nothing in nazism, racism and dogmatic theocratism that is worth discussing, except about what they are, wrong. And I have challenged my world-view many times. Go, back in the archives and read the record and while you are at it you may notice all what you two fine persons have contributed to our understandings. Om K I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. It is probably better that you filter, rather than overextend. Barb Jim Norman: Thanks Barb, for a excellent thought, expertly crafted and clear to its meaning. You have helped crystalize in my mind the words to express a nagging "what's wrong with this picture" feeling as I followed this thread. I couldn't understand why Hawk was castigated for simply expressing ideas. Jim Norman DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, would it materialize in some African's front yard? Hawk Don't bother, I'm sure that someone will come and take it when they need it. Maybe they'll leave you a thank you note. Nah! Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- At 08:13 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chris wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. It is probably better that you filter, rather than overextend. Barb maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list, then you could expose each other to the truth and logic of your ideas. and you would not be lonely because you would have each other. grinnin' dis time, chris Chris, you know I'd never leave without you!! Besides, you need truth and logic and who would worry about your meds?? Barb DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
E Mail wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: >I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that >can result from exposure to the ideas of others, Yes, it can be difficult to look at other ideas, but if you don't you are stuck in a rut, and learning, learning is limited to what you believe. Some times your beliefs should be challenged, when they are you see the other way people can look at things, and your beliefs might get stronger. Are some of the people on the list, so insecure, they have to resort to name calling. Let us get back to the topic, and to references..and follow the rules that this list was built on...no emailing. and are especially >confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. It >is >probably better that you filter, rather than overextend. >>>AMEN maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list, then you could expose each other to the truth a Well, the truth or even discussing another point of view is not welcomed here, at least not on this subject. It appears in looking back at the archive people have drawn this Hawk guy into a conversation, by saying stuff like why aren't you answeringwell not in those words but means the same and when he does, when anyone else does, with a different point of view you attack. and logic of your ideas >>Logic...yes logic is needed on this list or at least with this discussion. I hate name calling of any kind, and it looks like that is what is expected on this list. If someone has a different point of view you knock him/her down. You have to learn to take your blinders off and look at the whole picture...like different mores...and the like. What happened in the past can not be judged correctly by today's mores. bet you even think...that we should apologize...going to another war here, for the bombing of Hiroshima. and you would not be lonely because you would have each other. >>>and probably a lot more. You answering with your rudeness is what I meant by Kris setting the tone, for this listabusive, narrow minded.at least with this subject and how this discussion has been going. grinnin' dis time, chris >Wait !! Are you the same Kris...that has this list.now I am sounding paranoid.and you knowgrinning can be done by even an idiot...G> lol See what I mean...this is how you sound...abusive. >Your minds seem to be closed to any learning..all SOME of you want to do, is find a clique and go by that. There is no basis for name calling here. >>Remember me sending this following post in reply to someone writing this. I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again. Well I thought things quieted down, but I was wrong, people have to keep badgering one another and it isn't from the newbies. > > Remember me writing this in one of my previous posts(trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling) >>>Well, I wasn't wrong, was I ? Tried to get it back on to the topic and what happens ? People get called names again !!! I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again. > > >Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand. I do want to learn and will, if we can get back to the points at hand. Now we're doing it with some other guys who think some slavery is okay? I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past. Can we condemn those, the society for different mores. It was not necessarily wrong at that time. Carlene (trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling)
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 07:05 PM 1/17/99 +, Snobird wrote: -Caveat Lector- Congratulations, Hawk! You have made it to my Filter-Delete list. I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith. IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You are clearly a no-win kinda guy. Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. sno0wl I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. It is probably better that you filter, rather than overextend. Barb Jim Norman: Thanks Barb, for a excellent thought, expertly crafted and clear to its meaning. You have helped crystalize in my mind the words to express a nagging "what's wrong with this picture" feeling as I followed this thread. I couldn't understand why Hawk was castigated for simply expressing ideas. Jim Norman DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- On 14 Jan 99, , Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Howdy Hypocrite, Good morning... Having a nice day? Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries? I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today? So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they consistent? "Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation. However, the "rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not restricted to bible study. Check this site: http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html Congratulations, Hawk! You have made it to my Filter-Delete list. I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith. IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You are clearly a no-win kinda guy. Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. sno0wl DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Sno0wl wrote: Congratulations, Hawk! You have made it to my Filter-Delete list. Good. I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. You also apparently have no idea what YOU are doing here. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. I wouldn't think that you would. And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith. Good. IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You are clearly a no-win kinda guy. I hadn't noticed... Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, would it materialize in some African's front yard? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. It is probably better that you filter, rather than overextend. Barb maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list, then you could expose each other to the truth and logic of your ideas. and you would not be lonely because you would have each other. grinnin' dis time, chris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Sno0wl wrote: I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again. Since you said new, and I believe I am the newest, it appears that you are talking about me. I would say it is because of name calling, I do want to learn if we can get back to the points at hand. Didn't we go through all this already with the guys who thought some Nazis were "nice." Now we're doing it with some other guys who think some slavery is okay? I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past. Can we condemn those, the society for different mores. It was not necessarily wrong at that time. Carlene (trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling) and who are doubletalking about racism? I am not talking about racism, and I am not a racist, . Please show me a statement that show that I am racistnope I don't think so. (Thinking about conversations I have had with my family...they defintiely know that I am not. However, I will point out things, that things that are acceptable for society..and right for that society..at that time, can not be judged by today. I hope other 'old timers' on this list also notice a distinct similarity, Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand. not only between this new crop and the old neonazi group, but also a strange similarity amongst the postings of the 'new' pro-slavery 'crowd'...almost as if it were the same person talking... ;-) Wha's goin' on here? I haven't got the time to waste. Yeah right !! Huh !! Oh, ok now I am a neo-nazi ? Yeah right, far from it. If you want details on my beliefs let me know. Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate questions. Thank you. With name calling ?? Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible, and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never mind.but thanks...for your information. Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- "Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate questions. Thank you. With name calling ?? Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible, and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never mind.but thanks...for your information. Carlene Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carlene, you need to realize something. RoadsEnd, otherwise known as Kris Milligan IS THE LIST OWNER and chief moderator/editor, therefore he can do anything he wants. Additionally do you think he is going to sit idly by while people make ridiculous statements in support of slavery using the Bible for justification? You, Sir, are an ignorant son-of-a-bitch... I issue the same challenge to you that I issued to dumb-ass... You show me ONE statement I made "in support of slavery." Then, while you're at it, show me ONE biblical passage that condemns slavery. You cannot do it, and yet you add your stupid remarks to those of Kris... I keep asking him, and now I challenge you... Show me just one biblical passage that says slavery is immoral... AND show me just one place where I have supported slavery or said I was advocate slavery. Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate questions. Damn! You're stupid! What Kris has been doing, and what you are applauding is dumb-ass Kris's continually calling me a hypocrite and a liar, but never ONCE producing evidence of a lie or any inconsistency with what I say and what I practice. On the other hand, I have patiently answere EVERY question the dumb-ass has asked... Take up the challenge... show me otherwise. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought this issue was satisfactorily addressed, why is it that you are having a hard time with it? Calling someone a hypocrite when they are one is not name calling it is merely telling it like it is. The issue has not been addressed AT ALL, much less "satisfactorily." Calling someone a hypocrite WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE is nothing by juvenile name-calling and hasn't a damn thing to do with 'telling it like it is.' However, I'm glad you jumped in here Teo10 or whatever... YOU point out the inconsistency between what I say and what I do... Ball's in your court... jump on it.. Discussion of the Bible WHEN IT IS USED TO PROSELYTIZE, OR ARGUE BELIEFS, AND OR FAITH IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. Then maybe you should remind your pal Kris of this rule... I certainly have not violated it.. If so, show me where I used the bible to proseliytize... nor have I urged anyone to believe it.. What I said was that calling something a "sin" requires a bit more than mere personal opinion, and that the Southern people in the mid 1800's looked to the bible as their source for determining right and wrong.. If that isn't a fact, then YOU produce evidence to the contrary.. This is beginning to sound like a broken record... Using the Bible in arguing CONSPIRACY THEORY is acceptable, or to try and support ideas that are related to conspiracy theory. Have you reminded Kris of this rule? Where is this rule posted? Did you make it up just now? You want to argue religious conspiracy, like how Paul, formerly known as Saul, becomes the chief proponent of "Christianity" and an Apostle when he never met the Lord, and worked so much evil against the nascent church, that is okay. You want to argue how Paul's writing contradict those of Jesus on a number of points, or perhaps how he seemed to have many friends in Rome and may not have suffered as he would have everyone believe, that is okay too. Arguments that point out Paul's reliance upon the Mystery religions, such as Mithras and Attis worship for the main forms of religious expression in "Christianity" would also be acceptable. Stupid, but anything goes... These are only examples of course, and many others would also have equal validity as things that might require the Bible to support the position. No proselytizing is allowed, so questions of faith and belief are not acceptable. blah, blah, blah give me a break! The reason that Kris is going into the Bible himself is that he is trying to illustrate the hypocrisy of Hawk in his statements regarding slavery. And, I might add, he's doing a piss poor job... He hasn't found a singe passage or verse ... and neither will you... Prove me wrong. hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/15/99 9:20:47 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- My, my getting testy aren't we. In a message dated 1/14/99 11:58:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Gee, hypocrite hawk, how come we are not still doing this today? Taking slaves in warfare? I mean the Bible says we can; sez H. Hawk. We, who? I'm not, for one reason, because I'm not fighting any wars at this time... Maybe later. = Well, let us see, hawk didn't answer this question. Just some 'cute' words. = I told you why "we" are not taking slaves in warfare.. One reason is because I am not engaged in any applicable warfare in which slaves might be taken.. Another reason is, as I have said many times, I do not want any slaves. If by "we" you mean the United States, I cannot answer for the govm't... I could only presume that they would rather kill people than take slaves. It doesn't mean that they necessarily have an aversion to slavery... and in fact (to keep this topical), I venture there are plans (conspiracies) in the pot right now to enslave people. = Again a 'cute' answer, while evaded any real answer. I submitt that 'we' as a nation do not take slaves is because it is Wrong and can't be sold under even wuth some muddle-headed 'religious doctrine'. Not because our government wishes to kill humans instead of taking slaves -a truly ignorant answer. Conspiracies to decieve people and to 'enslave' them to political and technocratic pogroms is different than the institution of humans OWNING other humans. = So a slave has his personal sovereignty? I would submit that his personal sovereignty has been stolen. You just continue to show yourself to be an ignorant hypocrite. And you continue to show yourself the equivalent of a gradeschool fool... I think whatever you are doing, you are needed somewhere as the village idiot. = Again, hawk has not answered any question or dealt with the issue at hand but has resorted to name calling and more 'cute' answers. I submit again, does a slave have personal sovereignty? = I do not know the definition of words or phrases you concoct. If by "personal" you mean "as an individual" and "sovereignty" you mean absolute control over his affairs, then my answer is "No, a slave does not have personal sovereignty." In fact, neither do non-slaves. = Ok, who took the personal sovereinty from the slave? Does this not constitute theft? Again you try and change the subject by commiserating on the political realities of today. = Did Jesus have long hair? I don't know... = Hawk can you please tell me what rules are valid in the Old Testament and which aren't? = Which "rules" are you asking about? I don't know how you are using the word, "valid." If you mean do the "laws" of Leviticus have jurisdiction over Christians, the answer is "no." If, for instance, you mean "The 10 Commandments," the answer is "None of them." and I base that on, among other passages, Romans 7. There are many passages (particularly entire book of Galatians, and much of Ephesians) that teach specifically, "If you wish to apply any portion of the law upon yourself as an obligation, then you must apply all of it. It is a package deal." However for you, as a Celtic Bhuddist, whatever in the hell that is, it ALL applies to you, according to my understanding of New Testament doctrine on this matter. = So if none of the above rules apply, why did you hypocritically quote certain 'rules' from Numbers to back-up your assertion that slavery isn't a wrong action. I have never claimed to be a Celtic Buddhist. So what are the rules, Pope Hawk? And how come you favour the words of saul/paul over the words of Jesus the Nazerite AKA The Christ? Do you really enjoy showing the world your hypocrisy and ignorance? There is some entertainment value, though. = Hawk - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Well now, calling someone a hypocrite is not name-calling, It is stating a fact. You seem to inordiantely involved in this debate. Any particular reason? No...except the name calling ends up in my mailbox..I do enjoy your other post, which you write with foresight and thought, so I start reading these name calling ones...which is aggravating, because it lessens my opinion of you in a way. I mean right after reading a great post of yours, which I enjoyed immensely...you lower yourself to this.IMHO If you think that it is proper to use the Lord's name in vain with a curse whilst making my opinion again you are sadly mistaken. That was an example...and I forgot to blank out another letter,,,and besides that I did not type it all out nor did I use a capital G which would denote our God. And as for your syntax advice, . . . . Many times my remarks have been followed by MHO, which stands for my humble opinion. NOT LATELY Hawk is a classic hypocrite. There is much written proof that Hawk is a hypocrite and truly don't feel that he has anything in mind but disruption of this list. But ya have to understand, we been disrupted by eruditer hypocrites than hawk. Why are you defending HawK's hypocrisy with your innanities about name-calling and such? I am not defending Hawk if you would notice...I should you how to use correct syntax if you so wanted to continue doing this..this way no one gets into any legal trouble. We have gotten off on a tangent here...with this name calling and would like to see your intelligent comments, which I so enjoy, with this topic and get back discussing facts. Oh and thanks for calling me stupid. Do you have documentation? I was giving examples...in all of my post I was calling anyone anything. Like I said after posting an example "After reading this thought I would let you know that, that was only an example..Iamnot calling Hawk. this name.Kris," AND VICE A VERSA. However now that I think of it..even though I did not call you stupid ...I said "it seems that you are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list. I knowyou payfor it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your not following them." A list owner usually set the tone of the list, at least in my observations. Like I said before, I do enjoy reading some of your other posts, but for some reason you don't seem to use this logic when addressing Hawk. I don't know why. Carlene it seems that you are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list. I know you pay for it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your not following them." Anyhow you catch the drift you got to use a word like seems, appears, looks like, or I think can help you call names in a more efficient manner... OkI will help Hawk out here..with his response to ignorant..when he uses the word stupid. He should be saying something like this..it seems...I think..in my opinion you are stupid because you are calling me names and not proving a G##-Dam% thing. Well that is what he could say if he uses those words. - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Alamaine Ratliff wrote: -Caveat Lector- Okay, I'll bite. Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the written word} Don't see any connection to slavery. John 8:31ff: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves on anyone. How can you say we shall be set free?" Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also apparently "missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical slavery.. which you also seem to have missed. Acts 7:6ff: "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.' Then he gave Abraham the convenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs." I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV. The Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came along. But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the Hebrews to be held in bondage. It merely said that they WOULD be, and that Egypt WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the Hebrews were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told him to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes clear. There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph. I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian theological texts is rather illuminating. That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I would be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could be my "take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all. You be the judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper hermaneutical procedures. In looking through your concordance, don't look for "slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- I don't believe this sh++ ! It is so juvenile, I don't know much about this person, but no one should be badgered like this, is this acceptable on this list ? If so I suppose I could do this toowhere are you coming from...take it private.(the only reason my private post got sent to the list, is because I was an oversight, received some bad news and my concentration was not there) But this is a deliberate attempt to disrupt this list, which I have been accused of. Carlene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Howdy Hypocrite, Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries? So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they consistent? Hypocrite Hawk sez: "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the Hebrews to be held in bondage." So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'. Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one? I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them. Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? What a . . . chauvanistic goober. Om k In a message dated 1/13/99 10:47:36 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Alamaine Ratliff wrote: -Caveat Lector- Okay, I'll bite. Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the written word} Don't see any connection to slavery. John 8:31ff: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves on anyone. How can you say we shall be set free?" Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also apparently "missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical slavery.. which you also seem to have missed. Acts 7:6ff: "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.' Then he gave Abraham the convenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs." I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV. The Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came along. But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the Hebrews to be held in bondage. It merely said that they WOULD be, and that Egypt WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the Hebrews were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told him to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes clear. There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph. I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian theological texts is rather illuminating. That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I would be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could be my "take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all. You be the judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper hermaneutical procedures. In looking through your concordance, don't look for "slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant. Hawk - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Howdy Hypocrite, Good morning... Having a nice day? Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries? I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today? So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they consistent? "Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation. However, the "rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not restricted to bible study. Check this site: http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html There are books on the subject, and quite a few "hits" can be found using the "Hotbot" search engine. Here are some general principles: Hermaneutics- Rules for Correct Biblical interpretation 1. TAKE THE WORDS IN THEIR USUAL AND ORDINARY SENSE. A. as the people to whom they were written would have understood B. NOT necessarily literal C. CAREFULLY note the response of the hearers ( do they understand or not ) [ only go as far as you need to in the rules ] 2. TAKE THE WORDS IN THE SENSE THAT THE PHRASE INDICATES (short context) How is the phrase using this word? [in the Original language] ( verb, noun, etc.) - "faith" could mean 'the act of believing' or 'the elements of believe'(as in statement of faith) or 'the whole religion itself' (as in the Christian faith). ex.- an (anarthrous noun); nn (noun); repro (relative pronoun) 3. TAKE THE WORDS IN CONTEXT ( long context ) this is sometimes referred to as ' reading around the text' ( several verses before and after the target text ) 4. CONSIDER THE OBJECT OR DESIGN OF THE PASSAGE A. General purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) B. Specific purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) 5. CONSULT PARALLEL PASSAGES (P.P.) - direct quotes (of this or others) A. is it a parallel? B. is it an inexact parallel? 6. RECOGNIZE PARALLEL EXCLUSIONS A. note any absence of your target text in any other related passages B. note any absence of your target text in any parallel passages Hypocrite Hawk sez: "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the Hebrews to be held in bondage." So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'. The above is somewhat muddled, but presumably, anyone following the principles of hermaneutics should be able to arrive at a reasonably accurate understanding of written documents... Otherwise, why do automobiles come with "Owner's Manuals?" On the other hand, it could be that the document's author was unable to clearly state what he was trying to say, or that his ideas were inconsistent, and in such cases, it is more difficult, or sometimes impossible to determine the meaning -- For instance, "How to program your VCR" written by some Korean guy who is unfamiliar with English... In which case, you would probably have to resort to the original language (the reason for having study tools such as "Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.") Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one? Certainly... however I would not call it an "exhaustive list." Some examples are: Do not steal, do not commit murder, do not commit adultary, etc. I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them. I feel the same way about it. I do not approve of hypocrisy. Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. But even if I had, I don't know anything at all about the subject of intel secret ops, and don't even know what it means. What a . . . chauvanistic goober. Well, maybe so... I may be one of those, since I don't even know what it is. I think I am chauvanistic about some issues As for being a goober, I think that is slang (or African) for "peanut," and I am fairly certain that I am not of that species. However, I do know what a hypocrite is, and I do not think I am one of those. I have asked you numerous times to provide evidence of my hypocrisy, and you have steadfastly refused to do so. I have decided that you have no such evidence, based on your reluctance or inability to produce it. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Lord, have mercy, lady. Shall I really go through your noise, what is your point? [1] Hawk is offering classic apologist argumentation. So are you by the way. So there were black slave owners. That does does not mean slavery is/was wrong? And your argumenyt is racist. [2] Oh, Carlene, so what is apropriate, let some apologist tell lies backed up by his own personal interpretations of scripture? [3] How noble and hypocrotical [4] So you want to ba a slave? Again your answers are racist. [5] Weren't we benevolent. We did it for their own good. Again, you want to be a slave? [6] Nice, massa, . . . I guess if ya get raped nicely, It's OK. [7] I am sure the courage the gentleman showd was 'instilled' into him by the institution of slavery. You are getting close to being a gooberette. [8] Again, ya want to be a slave? [9] Invoking, Lincoln for what reason? [10] Well, then that makes it right. . . [11] Standing up for man and god. [12] Yes slavery was wrong then and now. Options - lick the boot or stand tall [13] Hawk is a hypocrite for espousing supernatural authority for the institution of slavery for chauvanistic reason, while stating that he wouldn't want to be a slaveholder or slave, whilst particpating in said supernaturals' 'universe'. [14] "separate but equal" was unconstitutional and void 'ab intio'. [15] Read it. Show me . . . [16] The nature of the day is not legality. Separate but equal was a sham and unconstitutional. In a message dated 1/13/99 2:17:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you realize your rationalzations are inhumane. [1]"""No...I don't see him apologizing...and like I noted in a previous post...there were black slave owers and there were white slaves as well...but that tends to be over looked...look at my other post for references in regard to this. h do not personally approve of slavery. Seems you would finally get that through your head. I don't either, and I have the sense to realize that was acceptable than is not necessarily so nowand things that are acceptable now will not be acceptable in the future. You have different societies and different mores...will find a reference if you really need oneand you can not justify or condemn a society..the past on the mores and beliefs of the now. Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite? [2]"""Sorry to get in the middle here..but this post...oh well...did you ever hear of the term.never mind...not appropriate on the list. I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. personally do not wish to own a slave nor be a slave. - Gosh, again, how noble. Gee, you wouldn't wish to be a slave. [3]Didn't this gentleman also say he did not want to own slaves as well, Which I will stand-up again, and again and say -you are wrong. [4]I am sorry don't understand what he is wrong about. === Blacks are deprived ? http://memory.loc.gov/ gi- bin/query/D?wpa:8:./temp/~ammem_DgOA::@@@mdb=cwar,fsaall,vv,detr,wtc,dag,gotts cho,horyd,nfor,papr,wpa,aap,bdsbib,nawbib,consrvbib,varstg,presp,cowellbib,cal bkbib,suffrg,pan,gmd,mcc,toddbib,mgw,hlaw,bbpix,award97,ncr,musdibib,alad,lhbu mbib,hh,bbcards,mussm,rbpebib,raelbib http://e.usia.gov/education/amstudy/hislink.htm [5]Do you really know what there options were ? If they stayed in Africa what do you think would of happened ?? Many times being a slave was safer than other alternatives at the time. [6]Look at the following article and see what is all providedI know your mind is set one way, but look at the other side of the coin. Here is an article you might enjoy...and it is documentated. """Atlanta Journal and Constitution, Thurs. Nov. 26, 1998 SecD-14 "Slaves' descendants honor slavemaster of ancestors" "Defying political correctness, decendants of Panola County, Texas, slaves are dedicating a historical marker to the slaveholder who brought their families here. .The marker will be dedicated to Spearman "Major" Holland who brought slaves to East Texas in the 1840's. "Holland Quarters, a black community four miles north of Carthage in Panola County on land once used as a plantation. has been home to generations descended from Holland's slaves. . Research has shown that Holland was know for generosity toward his slaves... According to Barbara Jefferson-Bonner, a Panola County historian. She stated "He was a great guy. He cared for his slaves in a unique kind of way. When Spearman left here, hye left his thousands of acres to slaves, who were ancestors of mine." .During the Civil War, Spearman served as a captain in the Texas State Troops, 4th Brigade. After the war he moved away and left the land to the slaves...His brother was known to have bought slaves and then free them. [7]""
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/14/99 9:03:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do not steal How about stealing a humans' sovereignity That's a "made up" crime and a "made up" sin... something you came up with on your own, apparently... The bible quite clearly, in many passages, indicates that capturing a person from another country is one of the means of obtaining slaves and it does not condemn the act as evil or sinful. The origin of the term "slave" is traced to the German sklave, meaning a captive of the Slavonic race who had been forced into servitude (compare Slav) Procuring of slaves: There are eight previously-listed methods, and now (9) Capture in war.-- Thousands of men, women and children were taken in war as captives and reduced, sometimes, to most menial slavery. Such slavery, however, was more humane than wholesale butchery according to the customs of earlier times Num 31:7-35. The two principal sources of slave supply were poverty in peace and plunder in war. Read particularly Numbers 31:25 - 29. .Num 31:25-30 25 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' {households} of the congregation, take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal; 27 and divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. 28 "And levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep; 29 take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to the LORD. 30 "And from the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the animals, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD." (NAS) Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Short memory, hawk? I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically addressing? hawk sez: I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, . . . Then dufus asked: Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? Hawk said: I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel secret ops." As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not one time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops." Its a phrase you made up, so far as I know. You seem to "make up" quite a lot of stuff. Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel secret ops"? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- You sir are still a hypocrite and you are not a follower of Jesus AKA The Christ. Who wrote Corinthians? Paul/Saul the persecuter and Roman stooge. Do unto others as you would have them to do you. What day do you keep as the sabbath? In a message dated 1/14/99 11:16:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By the way, I looked up the bible passage that supports the position that slavery is not evil, but never-the-less, if a person can be free, it is a preferable status. 1 Cor 7:19-21 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but {what matters is} the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let each man remain in that condition in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. (NAS) Now, my position has been clearly stated a number of times, that slavery is not declared "evil" or "sinful" in the Bible.. I have also stated that I would NOT want to be a slave... I think verse 21, above, supports that position. Thus, adhering to that position does not qualify me for the vaunted title of "Hypocrite" ... - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Gee, You are pretty crafty with your answers there. Gosh , I just don't know but like I say you are a hypocrite coward still in the pocket of a corrupt government and military. Ignorant also. Om K In a message dated 1/14/99 11:35:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Short memory, hawk? I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically addressing? hawk sez: I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, . . . Then dufus asked: Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? Hawk said: I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel secret ops." As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not one time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops." Its a phrase you made up, so far as I know. You seem to "make up" quite a lot of stuff. Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel secret ops"? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/12/99 7:24:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you realize your rationalzations are inhumane. No I don't... As a matter of fact, if you could read (and understand what you read), I have repeatedly said that I do not advocate the enslavement of anyone. I do not personally approve of slavery. Seems you would finally get that through your head. Gee, Hawk, thanks for your condescending attitude. I am sure you are ready to listen. 1. Oh, you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. Well, I guess that makes you a good person(PC) or do you have someother reason for you letting us know that you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite? hyp-o-crite (h p2õ-kr t1) n. A person given to hypocrisy. hy-poc-ri-sy (h -pÄk2r -sT) n., pl. hy-poc-ri-sies. 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. An act or instance of such falseness. from: A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A Hawk sez: I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. - in-hu-mane ( n1hyá-mEn2) adj. Lacking pity or compassion. in-hu-man-i-ty ( n1hyá-man2 -tT) n., 1. Lack of pity or compassion. 2. An inhuman or cruel act. a-pol-o-gy (õ-pÄl2õ-jT) n., 2.a. A formal justification or defense. b. An explanation or excuse. a-pol-gist n. 1. One who argues in defense of any person or cause. slav-er-y (slE2võ-rT, slEv2rT) n., 1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household. 2.a. The practice of owning slaves. b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force. ra-tion-al-i-za-tion (rash1õ-nõ-l -zE2shõn) n. 2. An instance of rationalizing. ra-tion-al-ize (rash2õ-nõ-lhz1) v. r 3. To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for (one's behavior). from: A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A Hawk sez: I personally do not wish to own a slave nor be a slave. - Gosh, again, how noble. Gee, you wouldn't wish to be a slave. But by your vaunted interpretation of scribblings you give PROVIDENTIAL AUTHORITY to the actions of slaveholding. Which I will stand-up again, and again and say -you are wrong. === Your contention that owning people, because of interpretations of scripture, is a valid human endeavour is ill-founded. A "valid endeaver?" Of course its a "valid endeavor." Murder is a "valid endeavor," if it accomplishes the perpetrator's goal. That doesn't make it a "desirable" activity in which to engage one's self. So you say that owning humans is a "valid endevor" val-id (val2 d) adj. 1. Well grounded; just. 2. Producing the desired results; efficacious. 3. Having legal force; effective or binding. 4. Logic. a. Containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived. b. Correctly inferred or deduced from a premise. 5. Archaic. Of sound health; robust. en-deav-or (Rn-dRv2õr) n. 1. A conscientious or concerted effort toward an end; an earnest attempt. 2. Purposeful or industrious activity; enterprise. ear-nest1 (ûr2n st) adj. 1. Marked by or showing deep sincerity or seriousness. 2. Of an important or weighty nature; grave. Again, you are a hypocrite. In "desirable' to you mean worth doing, advisable or is it wrong to do? == Slavery is wrong, is known by the fact of the actions of slavery, not by any vaunted scribblings. Is it "wrong" because YOU say its wrong? Or because an amendment to the Constitution says its wrong? What makes an action "wrong?" Your bemuddled "logic" -- if such it could be called -- is "X (and action) is wrong because the action of X is wrong." I fear you'll have to improve before your "argument" is convincing to anyone who can string a group of words together and form a logical statement. == Thanks again for mocking my syntax. I am so sorry that you have a problem understanding it. I was paraprhasing some wise words from a wise man. 'By the fruits, ye shall know the tree" Slavery is wrong from the actions of slavery. Simple. Now, some words from "Hypocrite hawk" from: A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are welcome to it, and you are certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" than personal opinion. I would have to reject slavery,
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Okay, I'll bite. Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the written word} John 8:31ff: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves on anyone. How can you say we shall be set free?" Acts 7:6ff: "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.' Then he gave Abraham the convenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs." I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV. The Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came along. I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian theological texts is rather illuminating. AER The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ------ : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H. : Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:16 PM : : -Caveat Lector- : : In a message dated 1/12/99 7:24:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : : -Caveat Lector- : : An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you : realize your rationalzations are inhumane. : : No I don't... As a matter of fact, if you could read (and understand what you : : read), I have repeatedly said that I do not advocate the enslavement of : anyone. : I : : do not personally approve of slavery. Seems you would finally get that : through : : your head. : : : Gee, Hawk, thanks for your condescending attitude. I am sure you are ready to : listen. : : 1. Oh, you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. Well, I guess that makes you a : good person(PC) or do you have someother reason for you letting us know that : you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. : : Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite? : : hyp-o-crite (h p2õ-kr t1) n. : A person given to hypocrisy. : : hy-poc-ri-sy (h -pÄk2r -sT) n., pl. hy-poc-ri-sies. : 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not : hold or possess; falseness. : 2. An act or instance of such falseness. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- The slave narratives are not about feelings. They are matter of fact in tone and the descriptions of conditions are well buttressed by related events. It is all but mind numbingly horrific to realize how these folks lived. It's true that they were in their teens but in those conditions, work began in earnest at age 7 or 8. My grandpa died when my dad was 5...he started selling papers then..there were thirteen in the house...children and they all contrubuted...a brother of mine started at 9and guess what they weren't slaves nor were they black. The slaves were adults in their teen years. Actually, even when i lived through the adolescent years during the 1940s, You were expected to be a fully functioning and responsible adult by age 18 during the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. No earlier right after they graduated from eighth grade.. Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: Yes, there are exceptions, such as owner buying a comely mulatto girl who could sew after a fashion and taking her back home, installing her in a bedroom with a a needle and thread and announcing to the Mrs. that they had a new seamstress. I'm sure it happened... And it happens to this day. But was it the "norm?" Hardly, considering the fact that in southern states of the time, the number of mulatto births (a good indication of the amount of mixed-race sexual intercourse) was -- as an example one mulatto for each 33 blacks (S. Carolina), while in Ohio there were 14,000 mulattoes to 11,000 blacks. Seems as though the white men in Ohio were somewhat greater attracted to black females than were the while men in the South. Not necessarily. It seems to me more likely that the fathers who impregnated their slaves would free their progeny. So their would be a higher percentage of mulatos among the freed slaves for that reason and not because of race mixing in the north. best wishes, Howard Davis ps I once visited a friend of mine who was living in a house about 30 miles north of Atlanta which had been built around 1830. Adjoining and to its rear was another house approximately equal in size and construction. There were small doors like dumb waiter doors between the houses for passing food. The rear house was the slave quarters. It really was not much different from the other. My friend noticed some writing on the wall apparently under a removed self. It seemed to be in two languages. The second said something like: "An end to this war and and end to slavery". DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you realize your rationalzations are inhumane. Your contention that owning people, because of interpretations of scripture, is a valid human endeavour is ill- founded. Slavery is wrong, is known by the fact of the actions of slavery, not by any vaunted scribblings. Lord, have mercy, the sufferrings from arrogannce saited by piety. A side-kick , someone to kick around. Embarrased? Shucks, wonder what your side-kick had to endure. The social rules were racist. Valid in the eyes of Jesus aka The Christ? Like I said, I was raised in the South, home of gentlemen/women and racism fostered by an illegal social and political system. The seperate facilities has stopped, why? Because it was wrong. Ladies couldn't even vote untill this century. Slavery comes in many forms. We shall overcome. You write me personally and complain about this post and this person and what are the rules. Yeah, there are rules and rule makers and rulers and yardsticks and junk-yard dogs. I ain'y yo mamma and if ya want a cop call 911. Actions begat reactions and so forth. Chill . . . Om K - In a message dated 1/11/99 1:37:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although prison life is no fun, it appears from evidence of the prisoners that they were better off there than in combat. snip As I mentioned, I grew up in the South... and have lived in the South most of my life. When I was in my late teens, I worked summers in the family business, which required some travel between towns in the South. I had a black "side-kick" or co-worker. It always embarrased me when he could not eat in the regular dining room of road-side restaurants (which have developed into truck stops). There were many reasons for such "social rules," some of which were valid, and others weren't. Most of the time I ate outside, or in the "back room" with Raymond (my co-worker). My family was in the theatre business, and at that time blacks were required to sit in the balcony... there were reasons for that, too, which I will tell you about by private email if you desire - DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- I began training at three and four for picking beans and berries. By five, I operated a tractor pulling sleds in the fields. By Six, I could cut a 400 acre field of corn stalks in two days operating from sun to sun. I began training in the blacksmith shop at seven, making barrel staves and rings. If you planned on eating, you had to work. Jim norman "Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote: -Caveat Lector- The slave narratives are not about feelings. They are matter of fact in tone and the descriptions of conditions are well buttressed by related events. It is all but mind numbingly horrific to realize how these folks lived. It's true that they were in their teens but in those conditions, work began in earnest at age 7 or 8. My grandpa died when my dad was 5...he started selling papers then..there were thirteen in the house...children and they all contrubuted...a brother of mine started at 9and guess what they weren't slaves nor were they black. The slaves were adults in their teen years. Actually, even when i lived through the adolescent years during the 1940s, You were expected to be a fully functioning and responsible adult by age 18 during the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. No earlier right after they graduated from eighth grade.. Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are two rather interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp in Tyler, Texas (Camp Ford). One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon their departure from prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock coats, ties, "plantation" hats, etc. In fact, they "could have been dressed for the ball. " Shame on you, Hawk. Have you never heard of Potemkin Village? Why "shame on me"? The photos are available for anyone to see. And, no, I have not heard of Potemkin Village, at least I have no recollection of it. Does it have some bearing on prisoners at Camp Ford, Texas? I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated is due to two things. The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied enormously between regions and plantations. No doubt there was quite a lot of variation.. The same is true of family life, churches, local politics, etc. That is why "history by anecdote" is limited in its usefulness to determine "general patterns." I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were like. "Greater credence" compared with what? You have to remember that the "Slave Narratives" were recorded in the mid-1930's (or thereabouts). That was about 70 years after the Civil War ended. Any "first-hand" recollections of life as a slave would have been based on child-hood experiences, influenced by "family tradition" passed down by older slaves. When I was a lad, we had several families of "colored folks" who lived and worked on my grandfather's farm. The patriarc of that group was "Uncle" John Hardin. He had been a slave, and we sometimes talked about it because of my interest in "old times" or history -- even as a youth. His personal recollections were that life was pleasant -- but then, most of his days were filled with playing and games. He recalled "rumors of war" and how fearful everyone was when soldiers approached the vicinity (Union or Confederate), and he recalled being excluded from the family council (because he was too young) that was held to decide what the ex-slaves were going to do "now that we're free." He and the other children sneaked under the house and listened to the debate/conversation. They all decided to "stay at home," and their descendants are still in that community. As for placing greater credence on narratives of slaves compared with other sources, we must remember that one of the conditions of slavery was greatly reduced (or maybe even the absence of) self-management or personal liberty. Hardly anyone likes that condition... If we were to conduct "Teen-age Narratives" of almost any era, we would probably find that they considered their lives somewhat more "terrible" than the facts would justify... hence the moaning and groaning about restrictions on their activities, choice of clothing, entertainment, etc. We'd have to consider A LOT of other evidence along with their personal feelings. That does not imply that SOME teenagers have had horrible experiences... it just doesn't support the idea that all have... Again, history by individual anecdote is limited in the whole scope of things. During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began stirring things up." One doesn't have to be a "southern apologist" to say those things... It happens to be true. Surely you aren't saying that "some of the best friends" of white people were Negroes? And, as for "getting along fine," it is quite true that there was a lot less turmoil before the 60's... You should NOT infer that I approve of "Jim Crow" laws. I don't. I do not think there should be any laws requiring or prohiting personal relationships based on race. However, I do advocate that people should not be prohibited from being racist "by law." It doesn't work anyway... Racism has not decreased as a result of "civil rights" laws. [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time. When she and a friend arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their trip, they were frightened by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby. Many questions aimed at determining whether the travelers were there "to stir up trouble."] And with good reason to be concerned, in my opinion. The apologists for slavery in the US are hardly alone, the phenomena is common enough. For instance, i have no doubt that if we asked the Japanese who participated in the POW camps where American prisoners were held how the prisoners were treated. They would assure the questioner that the treatment was fair and reasonable. Some would, some wouldn't. They would no doubt tend to be defensive, especially considering their wondering WHY you'd be asking such