Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 7/26/07, Lionel Elie Mamane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 Oh? And gnome-reportbug does or not? gnome-reportbug doesn't work well enough to do anything. In theory it does everything reportbug does because it is a user interface module for reportbug, a bit like the reportbug -u urwid option, instead of a reimplementation like reportbug-ng. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:52:43AM +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: When I'm locking at the BTS, (...) Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is pretty steep. (...) make it a bit more user friendly, but perhaps it's time to do something? The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. No, not really. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to be able to send correct reports. If they have such a restricted Internet connection that they don't have access to _any_ SMTP server, in last resort they can use the -o option of reportbug to save it in a file and then paste it in their webmail or any other MUA they may be using on any OS. But frankly, ISPs that don't give access to at least their own relay SMTP server, err... do they get any customer? Also note that AFAIK, on installing Debian, exim-config will have asked them for their smarthost, so actually usually (smarthost available) reportbug will work out of the box. Perhaps I'm out on deep water here, but just wanted to give a thought. perhaps a web-based solution (with backward compabillity to current system) would be the most optimal solution? I wouldn't oppose adding a web-based interface, as long as I can ignore it, that is I can still use email for everything, and users are kindly asked to give the same information than in reportbug (including package-specific information currently asked or collected by scripts in /usr/share/bug). Hmm... Now that I think of it, a web submission interface cannot run a script of its choosing on the user's machine, so there is at least one way it will be less user-friendly and beginner-friendly: users will have to do (some of) the work that is now done in /usr/share/bug by hand... -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 01:36:49PM +0200, Brice Goglin wrote: Sune Vuorela wrote: I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 Oh? And gnome-reportbug does or not? -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 11:47:46PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: It shouldn't be a huge problem to provide the option you want, but since it is a rather exotic (I assume most people just use a mail client), it isn't currently of high priority for me. Well quite possibly, but maybe $HOME/bin/mutt if they're built their own self-patched mutt, or something similar. I similarly use a wrapper in $HOME/bin in order to make epiphany and friends launch mutt properly (a script that Madduck put together). It seems there are fair few feature requests for rng from developers that Bastian has not said he will not accept patches for, just that they are low on his personal TODO list. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
also sprach Jon Dowland [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007.07.23.1611 +0200]: Well quite possibly, but maybe $HOME/bin/mutt if they're built their own self-patched mutt, or something similar. I similarly use a wrapper in $HOME/bin in order to make epiphany and friends launch mutt properly (a script that Madduck put together). http://blog.madduck.net/geek/2007.01.14_firefox-handing-mailto-links-to-mutt -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems if builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization. -- gerald weinberg signature.asc Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for most mail clients, try reportbug-ng. My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents, Why do you think I consider some mail clients unacceptable? In fact I try to include as much mail clients as possible. I just need to know them. and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck. That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. Most mail clients I know support either foo-mua mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]body=foobody or foo-mua -to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -subject foosubject -body foobody Send me the name of your mail client you're missing and a working call and I'll include it. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Bastian Venthur [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200]: That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. This reminds me: do you know about /usr/bin/xdg-email (from package xdg-utils)? I don't know if reportbug must get a MUA configured before being able to send reports; if so, xdg-email would be a very good default value. (It checks the configuration settings of the running desktop environment, and launches the configured MUA.) Cheers, -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for that rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. -- Erwin Knoll -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for most mail clients, try reportbug-ng. My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents, Why do you think I consider some mail clients unacceptable? In fact I try to include as much mail clients as possible. I just need to know them. My mail client is a script, ~/bin/mail-handler; which, I think, is not permissible in reportbug-ng. In other words, the user can not configure the reporter; they can ask the author to add in some standard mail clients; but not the non-standard ones. and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck. That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. But this is not configuration; and the lack of configurability is what I complained about. I can't tell reportbug-ng about my one off simple little script that does some stuff and sends mail out. What you are talking about is your willingness to add in any of thousands of mail clients that users might request (which, BTW, might not scale all that well if reportbug-ng gets popular and all kinds of people start sending in strange requests, and then later, other people send in bug reports about how the behaviour of all the gazillion mail clients has changed subtly and broken the bug reporting software). Most mail clients I know support either foo-mua mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]body=foobody or foo-mua -to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -subject foosubject -body foobody Send me the name of your mail client you're missing and a working call and I'll include it. ~/bin/mail-handler --subject 'foosubject' --to 'tosomeone' body I can also handle the old BSD 4.4 Lite mail programs command line syntax. What if the location changes? Or I change the syntax of my mailing script (to, say, do some security related stuff [like passing the mail through a guard program t redact sensitive material])? manoj -- Those who believe in astrology are living in houses with foundations of Silly Putty.- Dennis Rawlins, astronomer Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 04:42:48PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of tools helping the user to provide bug reports? I'd rather suggest to add a paragraph discouraging users from using rng at this point, until it meets the developer's expectations, sorry. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:07:08 +0200, Adeodato Simó [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: * Bastian Venthur [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200]: That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. This reminds me: do you know about /usr/bin/xdg-email (from package xdg-utils)? I don't know if reportbug must get a MUA configured before being able to send reports; if so, xdg-email would be a very good default value. (It checks the configuration settings of the running desktop environment, and launches the configured MUA.) Only if /usr/bin/xdg-email is available; I am not sure that one should make the bug reporting tool depend on something as heavy weight as xdg-utils (this is not something thatis installed on any of my machines. manoj 'all the world is not gnome' srivastava -- A billion here, a billion there -- pretty soon it adds up to real money. Sen. Everett Dirksen, on the U.S. defense budget Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Manoj Srivastava wrote: My mail client is a script, ~/bin/mail-handler; which, I think, is not permissible in reportbug-ng. In other words, the user can not configure the reporter; they can ask the author to add in some standard mail clients; but not the non-standard ones. It shouldn't be a huge problem to provide the option you want, but since it is a rather exotic (I assume most people just use a mail client), it isn't currently of high priority for me. That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. But this is not configuration; and the lack of configurability is what I complained about. I can't tell reportbug-ng about my one off simple little script that does some stuff and sends mail out. What you are talking about is your willingness to add in any of thousands of mail clients that users might request (which, BTW, might not scale all that well if reportbug-ng gets popular and all kinds of people start sending in strange requests, and then later, other people send in bug reports about how the behaviour of all the gazillion mail clients has changed subtly and broken the bug reporting software). I think realistically we're talking about roughly a dozen different mail clients (surely not thousands) which should cover 99% of all users needs. I don't see a problem here. Most mail clients I know support either foo-mua mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]body=foobody or foo-mua -to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -subject foosubject -body foobody Send me the name of your mail client you're missing and a working call and I'll include it. ~/bin/mail-handler --subject 'foosubject' --to 'tosomeone' body I can also handle the old BSD 4.4 Lite mail programs command line syntax. What if the location changes? Or I change the syntax of my mailing script (to, say, do some security related stuff [like passing the mail through a guard program t redact sensitive material])? I might add a pseudo mail client command line where you can use three variables (to, subject and body) to construct you own call, but again this hasn't currently a high priority for me although I'm sure I will implement it some day. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Adeodato Simó wrote: * Bastian Venthur [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200]: That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-, subject- and body prefilled. This reminds me: do you know about /usr/bin/xdg-email (from package xdg-utils)? I don't know if reportbug must get a MUA configured before being able to send reports; if so, xdg-email would be a very good default value. (It checks the configuration settings of the running desktop environment, and launches the configured MUA.) I've already thought about using it, especially since rng already uses xdg-open to call the user's preferred browser when clicking a link in the bug report pane (hint: icedove, you could have this feature too!). I'll have to investigate which mail clients xdg-email supports and whether it supports at least the to-, subject- and body for all of them. If this is the case, I should make it the default and leave the other ones as an option. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Manoj Srivastava [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:32:23 -0400]: something as heavy weight as xdg-utils The number of Depends of xdg-utils is zero, Installed-Size 260. -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org The easy way is the wrong way, and the hard way is the stupid way. Pick one. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:07:08 +0200, Adeodato Simó [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: This reminds me: do you know about /usr/bin/xdg-email (from package xdg-utils)? I don't know if reportbug must get a MUA configured before being able to send reports; if so, xdg-email would be a very good default value. (It checks the configuration settings of the running desktop environment, and launches the configured MUA.) Only if /usr/bin/xdg-email is available; I am not sure that one should make the bug reporting tool depend on something as heavy weight as xdg-utils (this is not something thatis installed on any of my machines. Too late, rng already depends on it :) But in my opinion it's not really heavy weight: It's Installed-Size is 260, it consists of just a few scripts and depends on no other packages. manoj 'all the world is not gnome' srivastava Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Bastian Venthur [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:50:49 +0200]: I'll have to investigate which mail clients xdg-email supports and whether it supports at least the to-, subject- and body for all of them. If this is the case, I should make it the default and leave the other ones as an option. xdg-email does not deal with clients directly; it just constructs a mailto: URL from its arguments and options (or a mailto: url can be given directly if that's easier for the caller), and opens it with the appropriate command depending on the desktop environment: kmailservice for KDE, gnome-open and exo-open for GNOME and Xfce, respectively. If the user is not running any of these desktop environments, it opens the mailto: url in the sensible-browser, in hopes that it'll be configured correctly to handle mailto: links. All of that can be overriden by an user script, xdg-email-hook.sh. If present, it'll be called directly with a mailto: URL. That virtually gives Rng support for any mail client and user case scenario, even Manoj's. ;-) -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Adeodato Simó [Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:05:59 +0200]: xdg-email does not deal with clients directly; it just constructs a mailto: URL from its arguments and options (or a mailto: url can be given directly if that's easier for the caller), and opens it with the appropriate command depending on the desktop environment: kmailservice for KDE, gnome-open and exo-open for GNOME and Xfce, respectively. If the user is not running any of these desktop environments, it opens the mailto: url in the sensible-browser, in hopes that it'll be configured correctly to handle mailto: links. Forgot to add between these paragraphs: This means that any mail client that can be configured in the KDE, GNOME or Xfce control centers or equivalent, will be supported. And that will probably be all of them, at least for KDE. All of that can be overriden by an user script, xdg-email-hook.sh. If present, it'll be called directly with a mailto: URL. That virtually gives Rng support for any mail client and user case scenario, even Manoj's. ;-) All in all, I think it'd be a very good default value. Cheers, -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org He who has not a good memory should never take upon himself the trade of lying. -- Michel de Montaigne -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Manoj Srivastava wrote: My mail client is a script, ~/bin/mail-handler; which, I think, is not permissible in reportbug-ng. In other words, the user can not configure the reporter; they can ask the author to add in some standard mail clients; but not the non-standard ones. It shouldn't be a huge problem to provide the option you want, but since it is a rather exotic (I assume most people just use a mail client), it isn't currently of high priority for me. Even those who use a popular mail client will often want to alter the exact command line used to invoke that program, especially for specific purposes like reporting a bug. I think realistically we're talking about roughly a dozen different mail clients (surely not thousands) which should cover 99% of all users needs. I don't see a problem here. Many of which have dozens of options, resulting in limitless command-line configurations. Allowing the users to select a pre-defined command line from a limited set of specific, popular MUAs is great. Not allowing them to configure that command line for their specific purpose is the limitation being discussed. -- \ Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a | `\ feature. -- Rich Kulawiec | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
20-07-2007, When I'm locking at the BTS, I sometimes get the feeling it was either designed a long time ago, Is it good or bad? or that it was designed by real hardcore developers. Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is pretty steep. Is it good or bad? (Try to explain why, using more concrete language, please.) I don't know Than can be ... all you should say. if there has been any discussions about some redesign of the system, to make it a bit more user friendly, but perhaps it's time to do something? (or perhaps you only want real bug reports from real developers, and pass users to ubuntu or similar? :)). (If you don't know, doing something can have nothing in result.) The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to be able to send correct reports. Perhaps I'm out on deep water here, but just wanted to give a thought. perhaps a web-based solution (with backward compabillity to current system) would be the most optimal solution? You were brain washed, weren't you? The enterprise Visual AJAX WEB 2.0 written in Java(R) using XML technology, is what will save users? My opinion is not, not at all! Let me explain it from my experience. First of all i reject any web:HTML,XML means of operation/visual representation. * one-WWW-browser support on the planet * HTMLize, XMLize, Java/VB Scriptize it all * CSS, CSS2, DOM, other W3C technical crap is legacy of the pre dot coms era, and this bound to die. The Flash plug-in is fscking all that crap for Windows(R) WEB users some years now. Well, any point-click user-friendly software is a crap. Mixing high technology with high profits from stupid luzers, that what it is. OTOH any professional CAD tools are tools for professionals, any means are allowed, as long as there are money. The operating system development, and then making software distribution based on it -- is completely another story. Have you being official Windows(R) beta tester for example? Can i be one? Not going too far from the subject -- Bugzilla, tool every user knows, every developer hates. Just philosophical description, technical problems you can find in mail archives of most heavy projects (e.g. Linux kernel, glibc). It was created for one particular project by one particular designer (company). Project was (is) -- the web browser. Guess, what can be designed by web browser producing company? My answer -- very inflexible, inefficient but turned to be very famous tool. p.s. if this is wrong list, please shoot me... So, please, don't just talk. Try to make something above average first. Then try to support it for some time, then go back to your questions, and know wise answers. -- -o--=O`C #oo'L O ___=E M -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:52:43AM +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have Something is being done to enlarge the amount of access channel to the BTS, one example is: http://alioth.debian.org/projects/bts-webui/ . Thanks for your feedback, Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- PhD in Computer Science ... now what? [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 07:09:44AM +, Oleg Verych wrote: p.s. if this is wrong list, please shoot me... So, please, don't just talk. Try to make something above average first. Then try to support it for some time, then go back to your questions, and know wise answers. Not only you are very harsh and aggressive, but there is definitely ways to improve the BTS, and e.g. _also_ allow web forms. (not exclusively). And if I agree with you on the fact that bugzilla is a huge pile of crap, the rest of your mail is OT, and the way you wrote it show you totally lack any kind of social skills. Please take your bad mood elsewhere. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpHAzgrQU1uI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Oleg Verych [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 20-07-2007, The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server [...], their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail [...]. Perhaps I'm out on deep water here, but just wanted to give a thought. perhaps a web-based solution (with backward compabillity to current system) would be the most optimal solution? You were brain washed, weren't you? The enterprise Visual AJAX WEB 2.0 written in Java(R) using XML technology, is what will save users? [incensed ranting on the topic of web applications] Oleg, your response doesn't seem to be in response to the message you quoted. Instead, you invent a position about complex web technologies and attack that. Worse, you imply that the person you're replying to holds that position because of brainwashing. Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. -- \ Well, my brother says Hello. So, hooray for speech therapy. | `\-- Emo Philips | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Carl Fürstenberg wrote: The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is This is not true, reportbug can send mails directly to the BTS without you needing your own mail server. to send an email from their webmail Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for most mail clients, try reportbug-ng. It makes browsing, filtering and filing bug reports pretty easy. It isn't the web frontend you'd like to see, but I think it is a good and user friendly alternative. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 2007-07-21, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bug reports pretty easy. It isn't the web frontend you'd like to see, but I think it is a good and user friendly alternative. I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
p.s. if this is wrong list, please shoot me... =20 So, please, don't just talk. Try to make something above average first. Then try to support it for some time, then go back to your questions, and know wise answers. Not only you are very harsh and aggressive, but there is definitely ways to improve the BTS, and e.g. _also_ allow web forms. (not exclusively). Sure. I would like to and will try to. And if I agree with you on the fact that bugzilla is a huge pile of crap, (btw i'm amazed by your bts - bugzilla bridge :) the rest of your mail is OT, and the way you wrote it show you totally lack any kind of social skills. Please take your bad mood elsewhere. Sorry for that. While i didn't shoot, as it was proposed, i tried to make some social statements, because that wasn't a reply to technical stuff. --=20 =C2=B7O=C2=B7 Pierre Habouzit =C2=B7=C2=B7O[EMAIL PROTECTED] n.org OOOhttp://www.madism.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:52:52AM +, Oleg Verych wrote: i tried to make some social statements, Any reason why you believe debian-devel is the right mailing list for `social statements'? Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
[incensed ranting on the topic of web applications] Oleg, your response doesn't seem to be in response to the message you quoted. A reply to off topic message to the development list. Insulting -- yes. Why? In dry lanuage: post your thoughts in your weblog, come here with patches That's a linux-ish style of reaction i've learned from LKML. I think it's right here also. Such questions while not pure user's for answer, are more appropriate to debbugs list. Even lack of this shows small or nearly no homework before posting. Instead, you invent a position about complex web technologies and attack that. Well, just words, style of the `quoted message', so to speak. Worse, you imply that the person you're replying to holds that position because of brainwashing. I'm sorry if my humor is not funny. Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Sune Vuorela wrote: On 2007-07-21, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bug reports pretty easy. It isn't the web frontend you'd like to see, but I think it is a good and user friendly alternative. I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 Brice -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Oleg Verych wrote: A reply to off topic message to the development list. Insulting -- yes. Why? People do mistakes, they can learn if you tell them how to do better. They don't if you aggress them and scare them away, just like you did. Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply. I wonder why you feel the need to reply if you believe it wasn't worth reading. For the record, and as you noticed, gentle private messages are much more useful if you believe someone did something wrong. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin: Sune Vuorela wrote: I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. In my opinion most of the time it is not necessary to always collect all possibly useful information about the reporters system. And in the cases where the automatically collected information was not sufficient, the maintainer has always the option to ask for more info. Rng was by the way not intended to be a 1:1 replacement for reportbug or just a reportbug-with-GUI. But nevertheless, I agree that this bug report is worth a read. It nicely demonstrates how some developers use to argue with others. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 02:44:45PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin: Sune Vuorela wrote: I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. No, it's about making use of infrastructure that has been in place since before reportbug was written (/usr/share/bug refers originally to the 'bug' package). In my opinion most of the time it is not necessary to always collect all possibly useful information about the reporters system. And in the cases where the automatically collected information was not sufficient, the maintainer has always the option to ask for more info. My assessment of reportbug-ng has just gone way down. The scripts in /usr/share/bug/ are *created by the package maintainers to collect information they believe should be present in bug reports about their packages*. Asserting that maintainers have the option to ask for more info is just stupid; the whole point of having /usr/share/bug/$package/script is to save a round trip with the submitter, and to save the submitter (who may not be very adept at all) the trouble of figuring out how to capture this information to a mail by hand. You really have no business second-guessing maintainers regarding the utility of the information being collected. If this important feature is not slated to be implemented soon, I guess I for one will have to recommend against the use of reportbug-ng for the foreseeable future. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Saturday 21 July 2007 14:44, Bastian Venthur wrote: Rng was by the way not intended to be a 1:1 replacement for reportbug or just a reportbug-with-GUI. This is not really supported by the naming of your program (an edit distance of 3 with reportbug) nor by the description. Those two will suggest to the casual user that this is a tool that you could use just as well as the regular 'reportbug' tool. Different maintainers have already registered that this is not the case for them and reportbug-ng provides less quality bug reports to them. That is the good right of reportbug-ng, but if this is by design then reportbug-ng should be clear to users that it's not actually a replacement for reportbug. But nevertheless, I agree that this bug report is worth a read. It nicely demonstrates how some developers use to argue with others. Like those developers that prefer spending their time on writing statements to the technical committee rather than adding the feature? :-) Thijs pgpUIDKLaNsF5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Oleg Verych wrote: [incensed ranting on the topic of web applications] Oleg, your response doesn't seem to be in response to the message you quoted. A reply to off topic message to the development list. Insulting -- yes. Why? Yes, indeed, why? Why do you feel the need to insult someone who is trying to provide constructive feedback? In dry lanuage: post your thoughts in your weblog, come here with patches That's a linux-ish style of reaction i've learned from LKML. I think it's right here also. Such questions while not pure user's for answer, are more appropriate to debbugs list. Even lack of this shows small or nearly no homework before posting. This attitude is becoming more prevalent in the free software world, and it saddens me. If you can't provide a fix, then we don't want to hear from you. There might be many valid reasons why someone would provide feedback without a patch. For the record, I think we should be happy to receive feedback even if the submitter: - Does not have the skills to provide a solution. - Does not have the time to provide a solution. - Can not be bothered to provide a solution (after all, we can't get involved in *everything*, can we?) Instead, you invent a position about complex web technologies and attack that. Well, just words, style of the `quoted message', so to speak. Worse, you imply that the person you're replying to holds that position because of brainwashing. I'm sorry if my humor is not funny. Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Before, after a lot of trials and errors, I did manage to get reportbug working, but I still get angry now and then, especially when I choose a wrong option, as I don't know how to undo it, I must exit the program and begin from scratch again. Other thing I feel cumbersome, is that it's difficult to get a good look at the progress of a bug, as you have to step through each entry of a report, Also, I'm sorry if I upset someone, was not my meaning. Also, is there an easy way to respond to a bug in reportbug, or should I always send a plain email instead for that? /Carl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Oleg Verych wrote: post your thoughts in your weblog, come here with patches This is a list which is used to discuss development related issues. The ability of users to report and discover bugs which affect them is inextricably linked to development. As one of the developers of debbugs, I want to encourage discussion of how things can be done better, even from those who aren't in a position of having supported their ideas with patches. I mean, it'd be rather boring holding this discussion otherwise. Don Armstrong -- LEADERSHIP -- A form of self-preservation exhibited by people with autodestructive imaginations in order to ensure that when it comes to the crunch it'll be someone else's bones which go crack and not their own. -- The HipCrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan (John Brunner _Stand On Zanzibar_ p256-7) http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:23:07 +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: Before, after a lot of trials and errors, I did manage to get reportbug working, but I still get angry now and then, especially when I choose a wrong option, as I don't know how to undo it, I must exit the program and begin from scratch again. Please have a look at reportbug-ng, it might fulfill your preferences better. Other thing I feel cumbersome, is that it's difficult to get a good look at the progress of a bug, as you have to step through each entry of a report, Hm, http://bugs.debian.org/$bugnumber is quite easy to read, isn't it? Also, is there an easy way to respond to a bug in reportbug, or should I always send a plain email instead for that? Sending an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _is_ the easy way :-) (But you can also add informations with reportbug and reportbug-ng. Or use the 'bts' tool with 'bts --mbox show $bugnumber'.) Cheers, gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ | gpg key ID: 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : debian: the universal operating system - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' member of https://www.vibe.at/ | how to reply: http://got.to/quote/ `-NP: Tom Waits: What's He Building? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: Before, after a lot of trials and errors, I did manage to get reportbug working, but I still get angry now and then, especially when I choose a wrong option, as I don't know how to undo it, I must exit the program and begin from scratch again. You can actually change any of the things it asks you when you're editing the bug report before it is sent out; if you mean configuration questions, in general you should have to change any of them. When the RT ticket about opening the submit port on rietz is competed, you won't even have to worry about your ISP blocking 25. Other thing I feel cumbersome, is that it's difficult to get a good look at the progress of a bug, as you have to step through each entry of a report, The best place to see the progress of a bug is to look at http://bugs.debian.org/bugnum; Also, is there an easy way to respond to a bug in reportbug, or should I always send a plain email instead for that? Yes, reportbug has the option of responding to a bug report instead of submitting a new one, but you can send a plain e-mail if you want too. Whatever is easier for you. Don Armstrong -- Three little words. (In decending order of importance.) I love you -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/graphics/batch35.php http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 7/21/07, gregor herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please have a look at reportbug-ng, it might fulfill your preferences better. I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed, I though, as it had a couple in it's list, that all of them was installed, so I choosed icedove, but it then complained and dumped a url-encoded string in the terminal asking me to manually paste it into my mail program, so I reported via reportbug instead (bug #434011). Hm, http://bugs.debian.org/$bugnumber is quite easy to read, isn't it? True, but switching viewports can sometimes be cumbersome :) /Carl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 7/21/07, Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, reportbug has the option of responding to a bug report instead of submitting a new one, but you can send a plain e-mail if you want too. Whatever is easier for you. Don Armstrong Is there any kind of commandline option? as I at the moment cannot see the --help of reportbug (bug #434011) I really don't know. /Carl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 15:02 schrieb Thijs Kinkhorst: On Saturday 21 July 2007 14:44, Bastian Venthur wrote: Rng was by the way not intended to be a 1:1 replacement for reportbug or just a reportbug-with-GUI. This is not really supported by the naming of your program (an edit distance of 3 with reportbug) nor by the description. Those two will suggest to the casual user that this is a tool that you could use just as well as the regular 'reportbug' tool. Of course rng provides from the users point of view a very similar functionality as reportbug and is intended as a replacement. But from my developers point of view I did not aim to provide an 1:1 replacement (meaning rng and reportbug should be 1:1 bug-compatible) That's a difference. Different maintainers have already registered that this is not the case for them and reportbug-ng provides less quality bug reports to them. That is the good right of reportbug-ng, but if this is by design then reportbug-ng should be clear to users that it's not actually a replacement for reportbug. Rng is just a tool which helps users to browse, filter and submit bug reports. Reportbug is another one. For me the reference how to write bug reports is described here: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html where /usr/share/bugs is not even mentioned. But nevertheless, I agree that this bug report is worth a read. It nicely demonstrates how some developers use to argue with others. Like those developers that prefer spending their time on writing statements to the technical committee rather than adding the feature? :-) I haven't written any statement to the technical committee about this issue. I just offered a discussion together with them in order to find a solution for our disagreement about the importance of the requested feature in a *calm* way. I don't plan to implement a feature I'm not convinced of just because some of the requesters prefer a very aggressive kind of argumentation, quite the contrary is the case! But nevertheless I still offered to discuss this on a neutral ground. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote: On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin: Sune Vuorela wrote: I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All the information about the reporters system that is automatically gathered about architecture, package versions and such. reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. In my opinion most of the time it is not necessary to always collect all possibly useful information about the reporters system. As has been indicated in the thread in #422085, and by other people, this additional information has been specifically requested by package maintainers because it is necessary for resolving the vast majority of bug reports that they face. Maintainers wouldn't bother to include scripts in /usr/share/bug/package/ if they didn't use the information provided. The inability of web frontends to easily provide this information (and the generic package versioning/distribution information) has long been one of the reasons why I personally have not written one for debbugs,[1] and its one of things that I expect the web frontends in development to attempt to tackle by providing clear instructions for users to prepare the attachment. There's no reason why reportbug-ng should behave any differently, especially when the information is so trivial to attain. [That said, I've no problem with the severity that this bug is at; I just disagree with the apparent judgement that it's an unworthy feature addition.] Don Armstrong 1: and indeed why #277744 and friends is wontfix -- If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. -- Steven Wright http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote: For me the reference how to write bug reports is described here: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html where /usr/share/bugs is not even mentioned. I'm not really sure if that's the appropriate place to document /usr/share/bugs, but since reportbug is mentioned in the 6th paragraph, it is kind of included by reference. [It appears that debian-bug.el doesn't actually do the /usr/share/bugs/package/*; thing either, so someone who actually uses that probably should file a wishlist bug.] That said, it would be rather trivial for me to add a brief paragraph explaining how to run those scripts and supply the output in the bug reporting instructions; perhaps I'll do so. Don Armstrong -- I leave the show floor, but not before a pack of caffeinated Jolt gum is thrust at me by a hyperactive girl screaming, Chew more! Do more! The American will to consume more and produce more personified in a stick of gum. I grab it. -- Chad Dickerson http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 16:19 schrieb Don Armstrong: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote: For me the reference how to write bug reports is described here: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html where /usr/share/bugs is not even mentioned. I'm not really sure if that's the appropriate place to document /usr/share/bugs, but since reportbug is mentioned in the 6th paragraph, it is kind of included by reference. [It appears that Not really -- at least not in my eyes. In my understanding this site documents how to file bug reports. Reportbug and others are introduced as tools to help to ease the pain of doing it by hand. But that does not imply something like: emulate one of those tools' behavior as close as possible. /usr/share/bugs was in my opinion a reportbug specific feature, since it wasn't documented on the above site on how to report bugs and since it was the only program I knew which used the scripts in there. debian-bug.el doesn't actually do the /usr/share/bugs/package/*; thing either, so someone who actually uses that probably should file a wishlist bug.] That said, it would be rather trivial for me to add a brief paragraph explaining how to run those scripts and supply the output in the bug reporting instructions; perhaps I'll do so. While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of tools helping the user to provide bug reports? Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:52:07 +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: Please have a look at reportbug-ng, it might fulfill your preferences better. I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed, Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail user agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)? I though, as it had a couple in it's list, that all of them was installed, so I choosed icedove, but it then complained and dumped a url-encoded string in the terminal asking me to manually paste it into my mail program, so I reported via reportbug instead (bug #434011). FWIW: I can reproduce this error if I put an Umlaut in my .reportbugrc. A workaround for you might be to change Fürstenberg to Fuerstenberg in the realname variable in /home/azatoth/.reportbugrc Cheers, gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ | gpg key ID: 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : debian: the universal operating system - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' member of https://www.vibe.at/ | how to reply: http://got.to/quote/ `-NP: Penelope Swales: Turns to Permanence signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Bastian Venthur ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070721 16:43]: /usr/share/bugs was in my opinion a reportbug specific feature, since it wasn't documented on the above site on how to report bugs and since it was the only program I knew which used the scripts in there. /usr/share/bugs isn't reportbug specific, otherwise it would be /usr/share/reportbug. I really think it is essential to use the scripts there, at least for the average user. That helped my quite often to resolve bug reports without an extra round of asking information. While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of tools helping the user to provide bug reports? Can you please add support for /usr/share/bugs first? Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Saturday 21 July 2007 16:42, Bastian Venthur wrote: Not really -- at least not in my eyes. In my understanding this site documents how to file bug reports. Reportbug and others are introduced as tools to help to ease the pain of doing it by hand. But that does not imply something like: emulate one of those tools' behavior as close as possible. It's good to realise why we have such bug reporting tools. Their goals are: 1) To ease the process of reporting bugs for users; 2) To provide as useful reports as possible to developers, hence improving Debian because more time can be spent on solving the bugs rather than asking more information. Several different developers have already indicated that the feature debated here is important for them to reach goal two of such a helper. I do not see how such a feature would hurt goal 1. So why reject the feature? What does it hurt? We already have a helper that provides such information. If we create a new helper, is there a good reason to have it provide less information, even if the maintainers of that package have explicitly asked for it? Thijs pgpOIJojQ4V4j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 03:23:07PM +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: Also, I'm sorry if I upset someone, was not my meaning. Do not feel sorry for that: most of this thread participants agreed that there were no reasons to get upset for your initial message. On the contrary: thanks for raising this issue and for giving us a user opinion, which is often missing in our developer discussions. Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -*- PhD in Computer Science ... now what? [EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/ (15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the (15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 02:44:45PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin: reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. In my As Steve pointed out the only reason this is currently a reportbug specific feature is that bug has been dropped due to how well reportbug replaces it. opinion most of the time it is not necessary to always collect all possibly useful information about the reporters system. And in the cases where the automatically collected information was not sufficient, the maintainer has always the option to ask for more info. In the cases where I have added a script it is because the information it reports is frequently the difference between being able to immediately help a user and having to go back and forth at least once in order to do so. Doing this means that I don't need to spend time trying to see if the package is broken when configured properly and that the user gets a more rapid response. It is actually my hope that the information collected may sometimes provide enough information to allow users to resolve problems without sending the bug report. Obviously that's really difficult to substantiate. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 16:43 schrieb gregor herrmann: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:52:07 +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: Please have a look at reportbug-ng, it might fulfill your preferences better. I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed, Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail user agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)? Hmm I wasn't prepared for users not having any mail client installed, I should indeed depend on mail-reader or provide a pseudo mail client clipboard or textfile in the list. Thanks for the tip! Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Saturday 21 July 2007 16:55, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: Several different developers have already indicated that the feature debated here is important for them to reach goal two of such a helper. I do not see how such a feature would hurt goal 1. So why reject the feature? What does it hurt? let me just add (just as the X.Org and KDE packagers have already done) that the info gathered through the scripts is also essential for installation reports for Debian Installer. Cheers, FJP pgpxL5mHVDDmp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 7/21/07, gregor herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:52:07 +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: I though, as it had a couple in it's list, that all of them was installed, so I choosed icedove, but it then complained and dumped a url-encoded string in the terminal asking me to manually paste it into my mail program, so I reported via reportbug instead (bug #434011). FWIW: I can reproduce this error if I put an Umlaut in my .reportbugrc. A workaround for you might be to change Fürstenberg to Fuerstenberg in the realname variable in /home/azatoth/.reportbugrc Oh, I need to change my surname to be Debian compatible, how quaint :) A couple of month ago, I reported a similar bug for reportbug (#416518), it was more serious, as it prohibited me totally to use reportbug. /Carl
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 04:42:48PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html /usr/share/bugs was in my opinion a reportbug specific feature, since it wasn't documented on the above site on how to report bugs and since it was the only program I knew which used the scripts in there. That page appears to be very much targetted at users constructing bug reports manually. I'm not sure that it is appropriate for it to include every piece of best practice information for automatically generated bug reports. For example, it seems reasonable that the page doesn't tell users to collect version information for all the package dependencies but I'd really expect any bug reporting program to do that. It's something that might be useful and can be automated easily but is cumbersome to do by hand. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:59:49 +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed, Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail user agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)? Hmm I wasn't prepared for users not having any mail client installed, I should indeed depend on mail-reader or I think depending on the virtual package mail-reader is not the best solution because there are more MUAs that provide it than rng currently supports. Probably listing the MUAs from ReportbugNG.py explicitly might be better. BTW: Thanks for your work on rng, I've already recommended it to some friends who don't feel very comfortable with commandline tools, so the probability for them to report bugs has risen ;-) Cheers, gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ | gpg key ID: 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : debian: the universal operating system - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' member of https://www.vibe.at/ | how to reply: http://got.to/quote/ `-NP: Red Hot Chili Peppers: Parallel Universe signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* Don Armstrong On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Oleg Verych wrote: post your thoughts in your weblog, come here with patches This is a list which is used to discuss development related issues. The ability of users to report and discover bugs which affect them is inextricably linked to development. Fine, if `thoughts' are `issues'. As one of the developers of debbugs, I want to encourage discussion of how things can be done better, even from those who aren't in a position of having supported their ideas with patches. I mean, it'd be rather boring holding this discussion otherwise. IMHO that comes from inflexibility of web based archives at first place, general ignorance WRT mailing lists as from its purpose as from tools misusing points of view. As of our late night conversation you may know my approach to ML information handling, i.e. Gmane + comprehensive new reader (slrn). Some issues with breaking threads in pkg specific MLs and absence of pkg name in the subject in some messages in -dist MLs, i've tried to address, are just very beginning of what can be improved in debbugs, among other things, i try to make working proposal before publishing. And if my recent (less than 24h) similar reply about URLs in the message bodies was read in debbugs list, this thread would not be existed. -*- To the thread: My anger (50% of the original reply) actually caused by general state of software industry. I think time has came, where quantity (of user reports, bug reports, feature requests, number of applications) should finally turn into efficiency. Yet nothing happens and i in Y2006 after year of using Sarge on my amd64 with all that fancy X, Mozilla stuff, have to threw everything away and now nearly for almost year sit in text terminal with small set of tools like, screen, lynx, slrn, mutt, emacs-nox. I sick of ever increasing userspace sucking. After seeing how linux core kernel developers are care for single cache miss, bunch of byte saved, cpu cycle, i just break down from slowness and stupidness of X, Mozilla and such. Finally. I've got a message about being disliked here in list. Guys, my opinion is, that doing this in private is unfair. If i'm out of order, tell me in the follow up. I'll go away, i have nothing to loose in this live, really. p.s. `for.gmane' account will bounce your messages on SMTP time, because i don't care about receiving and deleting stuff i easily can read in ML. I care about network bandwidth, efficiency and other rather unusual things. I reply to messages being with Cc or mail-followup-to with regular account. That's my strong policy on `i read MF list'. Thanks for reading and understanding. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 15:00 schrieb Steve Langasek: On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 02:44:45PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin: reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters system... see #422085 This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. No, it's about making use of infrastructure that has been in place since before reportbug was written (/usr/share/bug refers originally to the 'bug' package). Ok, so if it isn't really a reportbug specific feature, then the usage of this infrastructure is surely documented somewhere isn't it? So where's the usage of files in /usr/share/bug documented? I wasn't able to find the documentation, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Saturday 21 July 2007 17:50, Bastian Venthur wrote: So where's the usage of files in /usr/share/bug documented? I wasn't able to find the documentation, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere. $ less /usr/share/doc/reportbug/README.developers Cheers, FJP pgpycuO9C0wcc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 21.07.2007 18:04 schrieb Frans Pop: On Saturday 21 July 2007 17:50, Bastian Venthur wrote: So where's the usage of files in /usr/share/bug documented? I wasn't able to find the documentation, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere. $ less /usr/share/doc/reportbug/README.developers At least now it should be clear why I assumed it is a reportbug *specific* feature. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Carl Fürstenberg wrote: When I'm locking at the BTS, I sometimes get the feeling it was either designed a long time ago, or that it was designed by real hardcore developers. Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is pretty steep. The single feature I'd most like to see added to the web interface is RSS feeds, for the information on qa.debian.org, packages.qa.debian.org and bugs.debian.org pages. Has anyone looked at doing this before? It might make a good SoC project for next year? Alan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Oleg Verych [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply. If you feel there were no points raised you need to comment on, just don't send mail in the future. Thanks. Marc pgpX8TJ4XdAbJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
* 21-07-2007, Steve Langasek The scripts in /usr/share/bug/ are *created by the package maintainers to collect information they believe should be present in bug reports about their packages*. Asserting that maintainers have the option to ask for more info is just stupid; the whole point of having /usr/share/bug/$package/script is to save a round trip with the submitter, and to save the submitter (who may not be very adept at all) the trouble of figuring out how to capture this information to a mail by hand. That's funny. It is in my TODO list to add dropping tainted(P) reports for linux-image, after i saw many tainted -- not supported here. Before that i'm trying to develop skills i need to do so in the right way. I've accidently found /u/s/bug while doing current project. I've mentioned this among other advantages former and current Debian members have developed WRT bugs, while expressing opinion on how linux kernel currently (mis)dealing with this. It seem there some more for current leader to do on social ground. Are there more deep disagreements hidden somewhere in the BTS, hm? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
21-07-2007, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] пишет: --=-=-= Oleg Verych [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying to, or don't. IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply. If you feel there were no points raised you need to comment on, just don't send mail in the future. Thanks. Points that i've shamelessly added there are what i was thinking about for a while. Eventually it came in. I really would like to have technical start for any thread here. But it seems users reflect some DDs nowdays (no offense)... As about replying, i will better be red quiet about (: Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 06:11:19PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: On 21.07.2007 18:04 schrieb Frans Pop: $ less /usr/share/doc/reportbug/README.developers At least now it should be clear why I assumed it is a reportbug *specific* feature. The first line of that document indicates that the feature was lifted directly from the original bug. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Carl Fürstenberg wrote: The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is This is not true, reportbug can send mails directly to the BTS without you needing your own mail server. to send an email from their webmail Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for most mail clients, try reportbug-ng. My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents, and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck. manoj ps: for the record, I use emacsclient + gnus-mail ; and have managed to configure iceweasel to use that as well; but reportbug-ng is less configurable -- There are two kinds of egotists: 1) Those who admit it 2) The rest of us Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:17:21 +0200, gregor herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:59:49 +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed, Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail user agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)? Hmm I wasn't prepared for users not having any mail client installed, I should indeed depend on mail-reader or I think depending on the virtual package mail-reader is not the best solution because there are more MUAs that provide it than rng currently supports. Probably listing the MUAs from ReportbugNG.py explicitly might be better. Gnus and Vm, for example. manoj -- Sign in a loan company window: Now you can borrow enough money to get completely out of debt. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thoughts about the bug tracking system
When I'm locking at the BTS, I sometimes get the feeling it was either designed a long time ago, or that it was designed by real hardcore developers. Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is pretty steep. I don't know if there has been any discussions about some redesign of the system, to make it a bit more user friendly, but perhaps it's time to do something? (or perhaps you only want real bug reports from real developers, and pass users to ubuntu or similar? :)). The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to be able to send correct reports. Perhaps I'm out on deep water here, but just wanted to give a thought. perhaps a web-based solution (with backward compabillity to current system) would be the most optimal solution? /Carl Fürstenberg p.s. if this is wrong list, please shoot me...
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
Hi, On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 12:52:43AM +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: When I'm locking at the BTS, I sometimes get the feeling it was either designed a long time ago, or that it was designed by real hardcore developers. Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is pretty steep. I don't know if there has been any discussions about some redesign of the system, to make it a bit more user friendly, but perhaps it's time to do something? (or perhaps you only want real bug reports from real developers, and pass users to ubuntu or similar? :)). The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to be able to send correct reports. port 25 blocking may be circumvented using ssl(tls) access to smtp server like one offered by gmail. Read the manpage of reportbug for its command line options. Many ISP now requests to use non-port 25 for outgoing mail. That may be accomodated by specifying port on command line of report bug. If you are totally isolated from IP network, you can still use reportbug with e.g. -M option to start mutt. Then before sending the mail text created, save mail text to a file and move it to other machine to send it by mail or web mail. Perhaps I'm out on deep water here, but just wanted to give a thought. perhaps a web-based solution (with backward compabillity to current system) would be the most optimal solution? The only ready made web interface input is to report SPAM on BTS. Osamu p.s. if this is wrong list, please shoot me...
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 2007-07-20, Carl Fürstenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if there has been any discussions about some redesign of the system, to make it a bit more user friendly, but perhaps it's time Please read up on the differences between 'user friendly' and 'beginner friendly' I am a user of the debian bts - and I consider it very userfriendly for my use. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
On 7/21/07, Osamu Aoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: port 25 blocking may be circumvented using ssl(tls) access to smtp server like one offered by gmail. Read the manpage of reportbug for its command line options. Many ISP now requests to use non-port 25 for outgoing mail. That may be accomodated by specifying port on command line of report bug. If you are totally isolated from IP network, you can still use reportbug with e.g. -M option to start mutt. Then before sending the mail text created, save mail text to a file and move it to other machine to send it by mail or web mail. That might be true, but wonder how many non super technical people are able to do a stunt like that :) I remember the first time I was using the reportbug, and I really didn't know what to do when the email was just displayed in the terminal. /Carl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Thoughts about the bug tracking system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/20/07 17:52, Carl Fürstenberg wrote: [snip] The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to be able to send correct reports. That hasn't been true for at least 2 years. reportbug --configure will let you tell it to use your ISP's smtp server. (Even so, you should configure your MTA to relay all outbound emails to smtp.yourisp.net. Why? To show that you are more than Just A User.) - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGoVvvS9HxQb37XmcRAgcWAKC3x3y5pXTc2RCTv+NRvPvvVqiyUQCfc6mX CmNDb8vELeUr9rxKBrWcqho= =amSF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
