Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
> > I just did a quick search on the debian web site with the keyword HOWTO, > > this > > is what I got: > > > > Search Results > > > > Release Quality Package (size) > > stable100% doc-linux-es 1998.08-1 (739.8k) > > Linux documents in Spanish. > > stable100% doc-linux-fr 1999.01-1 (3077.4k) > > Linux docs in french : HOWTO, MetaFAQ ... > > stable100% doc-linux-it 98.05-1 (560.8k) > > Linux documents in Italian. > > stable100% doc-linux-pl 1998.03.29-1 (825.6k) > > Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - ascii version > > stable100% doc-linux-pl-html 1998.03.29-1 (834.8k) > > Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - html version > > stable100% lg-issue12 2-4 (219k) > > Issue 12 of the Linux Gazette. > > stable100% xcin 2.3.03-3 (1514.5k) > > Chinese input server for Crxvt in X11. > > Responses 1-7 of 7 responses shown. > > > > What puzzles me is why this list doesn't include 'doc-linux-text' or > 'doc-linux-html'. Any guesses? In the first slink release, there was just `doc-linux', and `doc-linux-text' and `doc-linux-html' were not there. Maybe some search database needs rebuilding? Eric -- E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Eindhoven Univ. of Technology Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA)
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Thu, Jun 17, 1999 at 01:07:51AM +1000, Shao Zhang wrote > On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:35:52AM -0400, Kristopher Johnson wrote: > > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed like > > a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both dselect and on > > the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. > > again, I kindly advise you don't be too rash to this mailing list. I started > with slackware for 1 year, then redhat for 2 years, and then I moved to > debian. Even though, I still find it is hard to get on with debian. Then > this mailing list answered every single question that I have had. > > I just did a quick search on the debian web site with the keyword HOWTO, this > is what I got: > > Search Results > > Release Quality Package (size) > stable100% doc-linux-es 1998.08-1 (739.8k) > Linux documents in Spanish. > stable100% doc-linux-fr 1999.01-1 (3077.4k) > Linux docs in french : HOWTO, MetaFAQ ... > stable100% doc-linux-it 98.05-1 (560.8k) > Linux documents in Italian. > stable100% doc-linux-pl 1998.03.29-1 (825.6k) > Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - ascii version > stable100% doc-linux-pl-html 1998.03.29-1 (834.8k) > Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - html version > stable100% lg-issue12 2-4 (219k) > Issue 12 of the Linux Gazette. > stable100% xcin 2.3.03-3 (1514.5k) > Chinese input server for Crxvt in X11. > Responses 1-7 of 7 responses shown. > What puzzles me is why this list doesn't include 'doc-linux-text' or 'doc-linux-html'. Any guesses? John P. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Oh - I - you know - my job is to fear everything." - Bill Gates in Denmark
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:35:52AM -0400, Kristopher Johnson wrote: > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed like > a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both dselect and on > the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. again, I kindly advise you don't be too rash to this mailing list. I started with slackware for 1 year, then redhat for 2 years, and then I moved to debian. Even though, I still find it is hard to get on with debian. Then this mailing list answered every single question that I have had. I just did a quick search on the debian web site with the keyword HOWTO, this is what I got: Search Results Release Quality Package (size) stable100% doc-linux-es 1998.08-1 (739.8k) Linux documents in Spanish. stable100% doc-linux-fr 1999.01-1 (3077.4k) Linux docs in french : HOWTO, MetaFAQ ... stable100% doc-linux-it 98.05-1 (560.8k) Linux documents in Italian. stable100% doc-linux-pl 1998.03.29-1 (825.6k) Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - ascii version stable100% doc-linux-pl-html 1998.03.29-1 (834.8k) Linux docs in Polish: HOWTO - html version stable100% lg-issue12 2-4 (219k) Issue 12 of the Linux Gazette. stable100% xcin 2.3.03-3 (1514.5k) Chinese input server for Crxvt in X11. Responses 1-7 of 7 responses shown. > And I started paging through > the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave up after an hour or so of > that. Maybe it would help if the package was named "doc-howto" or something > useful like that, or if it was installed as part of the "Complete Developer > Workstation" profile I selected when installing Debian. > > I agree that it would be helpful for more questions on this list to be > answered with instructions on how to find the information. But I see too > many messages on this list (and throughout the Linux community) saying > "people are stupid" or "people are lazy" when they ask questions that have > "obvious" answers. > > I think I'm a pretty smart and resourceful guy, and the whole reason I'm > using Linux is to learn about it. If I was lazy, I would have just asked > "How do I set up sound on my machine", which is what I really wanted to > know. But, instead, I looked for the HOWTOs on my machine, couldn't find > them, searched for them in dselect and on the Debian website, and finally > decided it would be easier to ask a simple question than to install every > Debian package hoping to magically wind up with HOWTOs installed. > > I know that there are some people who emerge from the womb knowing how to > configure device drivers and write perl scripts. But the rest of us stupid > people need some help once in a while, and find it discouraging to be called > lazy or stupid when we do ask. We're not looking to have anything spoon-fed > to us--we just need a little guidance when we hit a brick wall. > > - Kris > > > -Original Message- > From: Eric Gillespie, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 3:01 AM > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE > > > On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54AM +0200, > Urban Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) > > ) > > > > I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of > > what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. > > > > It is not Wintendo that makes people forget how to think, it is something > else. This is a problem with people in general, not just in relation to > computers. No one wants to think, because they're used to having things > spoon-fed to them. That's what "push" content was all about, people have to > be kept glued to the TVs, we can't have them going back to reading, > learning, > and thinking. > > We should not encourage this process. I see so many questions on this list > that shouldn't be answered. Instead, the user should be told how to use > man pages, info pages, etc. For example, someone asked if there was a > package > containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, he > should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he can find > things on his own instead of asking the list every time. Remember, catch > a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man to fish, and he'll > never starve again. > > -- > Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
"E.L. Meijer (Eric)" wrote: > > > > Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good > > actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions > > how to get started... > > This is getting on my nerves... > > * go to www.debian.org > * note the section `Getting Started', which is the second below > `What is Debian' > * actually _read_ this section (all of both sentences), and discover you > need to click on the link Release information in this section. > * click > * Note the header `New Installations', and the links > > Install Manual for SPARC > Install Manual for Intel x86 > Install Manual for Alpha > Install Manual for Motorola 680x0 > > below it. > * click on, say `Install Manual for Intel x86' (if that is what you > want) > * you now find yourself reading the installation manual > > All this involves *two* clicks from the main debian pages, and reading > maybe 30 lines of text. If this `definitely not easy' for someone, I > figure this person needs to acquire some more basic computer skills > before attempting to install anything at all on their computer. Yes very easy, I agree. Um does joe stupid know what an intel x86? > > Eric > > -- > E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Eindhoven Univ. of Technology > Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA) > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null -- Confession is good for the soul only in the sense that a tweed coat is good for dandruff. --Peter de Vries http://www.skunkpussy.freeserve.co.uk - Drum'n'Bass music, samples and links. ICQ://25576761 begin:vcard n:;Frankie x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;; version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] note:Trainee Linux Guru x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Frankie end:vcard smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 05:05:39 +, you wrote: >On Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 23:26:35 -0600, Craig McPherson wrote: > > Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE > > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b14) > > X-UIDL: d2077d16c3127d4bf73a47a47027a8d9 > > > As one Debian newbie to another, > >As a non-newbie ... > > > Thirty minutes is NOT that long to spend on a Linux problem. ummm if you are working on a project 16 hours a day 7 days a week for last 2 months, 30 minutes not having to spend on OS install problem means having time to take a bath.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 10:34:25AM +, Gertjan Klein wrote: > >"The people who manage the creation of software-based products are > >typically > > either hostage to programmers because they are insufficiently > >technical, or they are > >all too sympathetic to programmers because they are programmers > >themselves." > > That is one of the main points of the entire book: that programmers > are the ones that design the user interface of programs. Programmers > have a very different view of computing that arbitrary users. They > subconsciously tend to assume that users of their programs have the same > view as they themselves have. I hear that attitude in the oft-heard > phrase "teach a man to fish...". Though true in itself, many people are > either not interested in or don't have the capacity to configure large, > complicated applications; they just want to type their letters, and do > the other stuff their bosses tell them to do. Cooper points out that the > interaction design should be geared towards the people actually using > the program, instead of the people that program it. Self-evident as this > may seem, it appears that this is hardly ever the case. In the case of debian (and of linux in general) it is worth noting that programmers are not doing this for a living but because they like it... For example, since I am almost never using X I would hardly be eager to make an X interface for my prog... Interface design is imho the most boring part, thats maybe why it is sometimes overlooked in free programs. Just my two cents. A lot of people like making shiny interface too but not everyone loves it. -Lex pgpAhyY9Iv7T3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Contents file [was Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!]
Kirk Hogenson wrote: > > Marc Mongeon wrote: > > > > But certainly this was intended to be an automated feature, right? > > Is it a flag that you give to dpkg, or the compiled default in some > > later version (I'm running 1.4.0.34, and have no Contents), or just > > the result of a bunch of Debian users deciding it was a Good Idea > > to schedule a cron job to download this file and put it in > > /var/lib/dpkg? > > > > The way this file was referred to in this thread, it really sounded > > like it was something that should exist, unless you took specific > > steps to remove it from your system. > > I was the one who suggested looking in this file. I had it on > my system, and I don't remember downloading it (but the cron job > idea is pretty good!), or copying it off my CDs. > > My impression was the everybody would have this file on their system > automatically, and was surprised that this isn't the case. > > Maybe this file *used* to be installed (that's why I had it), but with > everybody moving to apt and getting updates via the net, it was decided > that it would be too difficult to keep it up-to-date, and it was > dropped from the slink install. Just a guess, though. > > Kirk For the life of me, I can't remember how I got the Contents file either. However, I don't believe it ever was part of a debian package. The reason I say this is because I keep a backup of anything I use that didn't come from the distribution(s) on debian.org. I have a backup of Contents-i386 (its old enough now that it may be less than usefull), but it is a tar.gz file, not .deb. -- Ed C.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:54:01 -0500, "Keith G. Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I would add that GUI does not equate to ease-of-use. Look at the >oft-derided dselect: it's actually quite a good wizard (takes you >through everything you need to do step by step). The bad parts of it >are probably the slowness and (moreso) the unconventional keystroke >bindings. I agree that GUI does not automatically mean ease of use. In general, though, when configuring an application, clicking a checkbox is a lot easier than reading through an outdated manpage or (horror!) using info to find out the exact syntax of a specific configuration file line. When installing a Linux distribution there are so many applications to be configured, so many man pages to be read, that a new user can easily and justifiably feel intimidated. I've played with Linux (mostly Debian) for a couple of years now, and still find myself putting things off because it's so much work and so much reading. Whatever you think of W95, it has a lot less of these problems. Dselect is IMHO not a very good example of a good interface, because it is difficult to understand. I _still_ get confused when to use the Enter key and when to use the space bar, for example. I also find the separation in categories like misc, optional, non-free etc. completely arbitrary to me. I'd like to see all the networking-related packages together; if you can configure dselect to do that, I haven't found how. Of course, it is no longer practical to use dselect anyway, not with the huge amount of packages Debian comes with nowadays... I think an interface comparable with W95 explorer would work well for package selection, although this is hard to implement in text mode. >"The people who manage the creation of software-based products are >typically > either hostage to programmers because they are insufficiently >technical, or they are >all too sympathetic to programmers because they are programmers >themselves." That is one of the main points of the entire book: that programmers are the ones that design the user interface of programs. Programmers have a very different view of computing that arbitrary users. They subconsciously tend to assume that users of their programs have the same view as they themselves have. I hear that attitude in the oft-heard phrase "teach a man to fish...". Though true in itself, many people are either not interested in or don't have the capacity to configure large, complicated applications; they just want to type their letters, and do the other stuff their bosses tell them to do. Cooper points out that the interaction design should be geared towards the people actually using the program, instead of the people that program it. Self-evident as this may seem, it appears that this is hardly ever the case. >Personally, I think that explains a lot of "Y2K": A .sig I read somewhere: "Trust programmers to abbreviate the year-2000 problem to Y2K. It is this attitude that got us into this mess in the first place!" ;-) Gertjan (programmer, in case anyone was wondering ;-) -- Gertjan Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The Boot Control home page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gklein/bcpage.html
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Keith G. Murphy wrote: > Personally, I think that explains a lot of "Y2K": managers have allowed > themselves to abdicate responsibility for what goes on inside the glass > room. Right now, there's even a bill before Congress to limit > companies' liability for Y2K problems. As if they're acts of God or > something! Acts of greed is more like it. Greedy management that forces the prototype to be issued as the final version, and that refuses to spend any real money on fixes as opposed to features. Greedy users who will only spend real money on features as opposed to stability releases. Greedy programmers who take the easy way out, rather than working harder, taking more time, but doing a quality job. There's more than enough blame to go around. -- Charles B. (Ben) Cranston mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wam.umd.edu/~zben
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Gertjan Klein wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:25:14 -0400, "Kristopher Johnson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >My reaction was to > >the people who are glad that Linux isn't too easy, because they enjoy the > >challenge. Adversity builds character, I guess. > > Well said. In addition, the reverse also seems to apply; > point-and-click interfaces suck, because they are too easy. Windows > could learn a lot from Linux in terms of performance, power and > stability, but Linux doesn't even come close to the ease of installation > and use you'll find with Windows. This is not something to be proud of, > or something to blame on (new) users. It would be nice if the people you > mention above realize that the vast majority of computer users in > general are absolutely not interested in learning about operating > systems, file systems, the files in /etc, and so on - they just want to > get a job done, as quickly and easily as possible. There is absolutley > nothing wrong with that. > > >If you like to do things the hard way, then fine. But it doesn't really > >mean that you're more intelligent or more knowledgeable than people who > >click a few buttons in a GUI to accomplish the same thing. I would add that GUI does not equate to ease-of-use. Look at the oft-derided dselect: it's actually quite a good wizard (takes you through everything you need to do step by step). The bad parts of it are probably the slowness and (moreso) the unconventional keystroke bindings. Wizards are actually a way to get back to a more linear style of user interaction, which of course can be quite naturally done either in ncurses or even straight console style programming. > > Even if it did mean that, so what? > > Alan Cooper has written an interesting book about user interface > design (he prefers to call it interaction design). It addresses a lot of > the issues that users have to deal with when operating high-tech > equipment like computers; these issues are universal, and apply to > interacting with Linux as well. A sample chapter is available online at > amazon: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-excerpt/0672316498/vbtechniques/002-1455712-0642063 > That is an interesting read. I've encountered Cooper's work before. Don't agree with all of it, but it always bears nuggets of insight. I liked this in particular: "The people who manage the creation of software-based products are typically either hostage to programmers because they are insufficiently technical, or they are all too sympathetic to programmers because they are programmers themselves." Personally, I think that explains a lot of "Y2K": managers have allowed themselves to abdicate responsibility for what goes on inside the glass room. Right now, there's even a bill before Congress to limit companies' liability for Y2K problems. As if they're acts of God or something! Sorry to go so far off-topic... (I did mention dselect :-))
Re: Contents file [was Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!]
Marc Mongeon wrote: > > But certainly this was intended to be an automated feature, right? > Is it a flag that you give to dpkg, or the compiled default in some > later version (I'm running 1.4.0.34, and have no Contents), or just > the result of a bunch of Debian users deciding it was a Good Idea > to schedule a cron job to download this file and put it in > /var/lib/dpkg? > > The way this file was referred to in this thread, it really sounded > like it was something that should exist, unless you took specific > steps to remove it from your system. I was the one who suggested looking in this file. I had it on my system, and I don't remember downloading it (but the cron job idea is pretty good!), or copying it off my CDs. My impression was the everybody would have this file on their system automatically, and was surprised that this isn't the case. Maybe this file *used* to be installed (that's why I had it), but with everybody moving to apt and getting updates via the net, it was decided that it would be too difficult to keep it up-to-date, and it was dropped from the slink install. Just a guess, though. Kirk
Contents file [was Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!]
But certainly this was intended to be an automated feature, right? Is it a flag that you give to dpkg, or the compiled default in some later version (I'm running 1.4.0.34, and have no Contents), or just the result of a bunch of Debian users deciding it was a Good Idea to schedule a cron job to download this file and put it in /var/lib/dpkg? The way this file was referred to in this thread, it really sounded like it was something that should exist, unless you took specific steps to remove it from your system. Have I inadvertently taken such a step? I don't know what the difference is between the "available" file (which does exist) and the "Contents" file. The former gave me the information I needed when I put it to the test, looking for software that produces thumbnail images, in response to another post on this list. Marc -- Marc Mongeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unix Specialist Ban-Koe Systems 9100 W Bloomington Fwy Bloomington, MN 55431-2200 (612)888-0123, x417 | FAX: (612)888-3344 -- "It's such a fine line between clever and stupid." -- David St. Hubbins and Nigel Tufnel of "Spinal Tap" >>> "Eric Gillespie, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 06/12 2:01 PM >>> On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:08:04PM -0500, ktb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I kind of hate to jump into a string like this but at the risk of > sounding real stupid how can one create this > /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz file. I've searched for it on my Slink > system and it just isn't there. I took a look at the dpkg man page and > see no reference to the file. I see that you can look for packages in > /var/lib/dpkg/available but that's not the same. > Thanks, > kent > You can pull it out of your Debian mirror from dists/slink/Contents-i386.gz -- Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you try to out-weird me! I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal! --Zaphod Beeblebrox -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
Contents file [was Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!]
On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:08:04PM -0500, ktb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I kind of hate to jump into a string like this but at the risk of > sounding real stupid how can one create this > /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz file. I've searched for it on my Slink > system and it just isn't there. I took a look at the dpkg man page and > see no reference to the file. I see that you can look for packages in > /var/lib/dpkg/available but that's not the same. > Thanks, > kent > You can pull it out of your Debian mirror from dists/slink/Contents-i386.gz -- Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you try to out-weird me! I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal! --Zaphod Beeblebrox
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:35:52AM -0400, Kristopher Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed like > a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both dselect and on > the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. And I started paging through > the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave up after an hour or so of > that. Maybe it would help if the package was named "doc-howto" or something > useful like that, or if it was installed as part of the "Complete Developer > Workstation" profile I selected when installing Debian. > I hope you didn't take my message to be insulting to you, because I didn't intend it that way. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, I do it all the time. I was just saying that the person answering your question should have told you how to search the Contents file (dists/slink/Contents-i386.gz). -- Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you try to out-weird me! I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal! --Zaphod Beeblebrox
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Gertjan Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:04:56 +0930 (CST), Michael Talbot-Wilson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > A few phrases of your mail: > > "Contemptible complaints and demands", "self-important and self-serving > claim", "laughable", "a shithead", "completely bogus", "intolerant and > demanding", "a lame and inefficient user". > > I don't think this was justified, and I don't want to be dragged into > a flame war, so I won't respond other than saying that my mail, although > bearing critisism, was intended constructive, while yours obviously was > intended demeaning. Ouch. I didn't think I intended that.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:04:56 +0930 (CST), Michael Talbot-Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A few phrases of your mail: "Contemptible complaints and demands", "self-important and self-serving claim", "laughable", "a shithead", "completely bogus", "intolerant and demanding", "a lame and inefficient user". I don't think this was justified, and I don't want to be dragged into a flame war, so I won't respond other than saying that my mail, although bearing critisism, was intended constructive, while yours obviously was intended demeaning. Gertjan. -- Gertjan Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The Boot Control home page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gklein/bcpage.html
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Gertjan Klein wrote: > point-and-click interfaces suck, because they are too easy. Windows > could learn a lot from Linux in terms of performance, power and > stability, but Linux doesn't even come close to the ease of installation > and use you'll find with Windows. This is not something to be proud of, Who said it was? > or something to blame on (new) users. It would be nice if the people you It is not blamed on users. Contemptible complaints and demands attract contemptuous replies. Ignorance does not. Love of ease does not. These have nothing to do with it. > mention above realize that the vast majority of computer users in > general are absolutely not interested in learning about operating > systems, file systems, the files in /etc, and so on - they just want to > get a job done, as quickly and easily as possible. There is absolutley > nothing wrong with that. This self-important and self-serving claim is made too often. There is a pretence that I am a serious, business-like person with a job to do, and therefore I am too important and too busy to learn how to do it. That is bogus. > >If you like to do things the hard way, then fine. But it doesn't really Not many people like to do things the hard way. That is not intelligent. This is absolutely irrelevant. > >mean that you're more intelligent or more knowledgeable than people who > >click a few buttons in a GUI to accomplish the same thing. > Even if it did mean that, so what? And intelligence has nothing to do with it either. It is laughable to think high intelligence is required to discover the Install Manual on the Debian Web site or to discover install.txt on a Debian CD. The problem was that too much explanation was given. That is hard to avoid in the circumstances. The information is addressed to people who know nothing, who need background in everything. But this has nothing to do with intelligence. Simpler here means save me the effort of reading all this. > Alan Cooper has written an interesting book about user interface > design (he prefers to call it interaction design). It addresses a lot of > the issues that users have to deal with when operating high-tech > equipment like computers; these issues are universal, and apply to > interacting with Linux as well. A sample chapter is available online at So what? What is the relevance of saying that user interfaces can be designed, and that we can move beyond the present to better systems in future? We would all like the installation of Debian to be simpler. Debian is a huge effort directed to making installation and maintenance of Linux simpler. That is exactly what it is about. However simple it is we would like it simpler. We'd like to do everything more easily. But only a shithead screams "MAKE IT SIMPLE!" so that he won't personally have to make any effort. If you want someone to MAKE IT SIMPLE! all you have to do is ante up a billion dollars. Come to the party with Microsoft's development budget. Debian is developed and maintained gratis, by volunteers. Linux is developed and maintained gratis, by volunteers. A few, with very good track records in free software development, may in the end get do to paid development on tiny parts of these systems by the likes of RedHat. But in essence, if anyone gets paid it is a donation, a grant. Ditto the GNU utilities. The person who screamed "MAKE IT SIMPLE!" had not paid a cent for the software. It is completely bogus to suggest that the world is divided into businesslike people who want to do serious work with the computer, just want to get on with using the software, and masturbators who just like to fool with it. The real distinction is between the tolerant and appreciative who will make an effort to solve their problems, and the intolerant and demanding who will not, who think people who have given them free software are their servants and that they have a right to complain about anything not perfectly to their liking. And a right to demand to be helped by the user community at large. Those in the first group learn by their first efforts. They find their problems are soluble. And then they are better placed when they strike other problems. They grow in knowledge and ability. They are able to help others. And to judge and flame others who will not do what they did. But they are still users who have the software to use it. People in the first group, even if they stick to Microsoft Windows and leave Linux alone, use the software effectively. The person who is too busy to make an effort to learn how to use Microsoft Excel, who just wants to use the program for real work, who is too busy and too important and too demanding to direct any attention to the software itself, will remain a lame and inefficient user, just limping along, wasting vastly more time than he pretends to save. My employer once sent me to a two-day course in Excel. No-one recoils in surprise that there
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:25:14 -0400, "Kristopher Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >My reaction was to >the people who are glad that Linux isn't too easy, because they enjoy the >challenge. Adversity builds character, I guess. Well said. In addition, the reverse also seems to apply; point-and-click interfaces suck, because they are too easy. Windows could learn a lot from Linux in terms of performance, power and stability, but Linux doesn't even come close to the ease of installation and use you'll find with Windows. This is not something to be proud of, or something to blame on (new) users. It would be nice if the people you mention above realize that the vast majority of computer users in general are absolutely not interested in learning about operating systems, file systems, the files in /etc, and so on - they just want to get a job done, as quickly and easily as possible. There is absolutley nothing wrong with that. >If you like to do things the hard way, then fine. But it doesn't really >mean that you're more intelligent or more knowledgeable than people who >click a few buttons in a GUI to accomplish the same thing. Even if it did mean that, so what? Alan Cooper has written an interesting book about user interface design (he prefers to call it interaction design). It addresses a lot of the issues that users have to deal with when operating high-tech equipment like computers; these issues are universal, and apply to interacting with Linux as well. A sample chapter is available online at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-excerpt/0672316498/vbtechniques/002-1455712-0642063 It is a really interesting read; it wouldn't hurt if the die-hards read it ;-) Gertjan. -- Gertjan Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The Boot Control home page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gklein/bcpage.html
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Kristopher Johnson wrote: > > Yes, this was a great explanation. Thanks! > > And my apologies to Eric: my response was intended to be good-natured, but > in re-reading it, I guess it actually looks pretty hostile. Unfortunately, > I didn't really make my point clear. I didn't mean to try to defend my > "dumb question", or even to defend myself personally. My reaction was to > the people who are glad that Linux isn't too easy, because they enjoy the > challenge. Adversity builds character, I guess. > > If you like to do things the hard way, then fine. But it doesn't really > mean that you're more intelligent or more knowledgeable than people who > click a few buttons in a GUI to accomplish the same thing. Most of us just > don't like spending our leisure time editing files in the /etc directory or > browsing through the kernel headers. We're not asking to be "spoon-fed" or > to be freed from the burden of thinking; we're just looking for the most > efficient way to do what we want to do. > > Thanks to everyone who replied helpfully. > > Now, can someone please tell me which package contains the HOWTOs in HTML > format? :-) In dselect, search on 'html', you'll find it. -- Ed C.
RE: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Yes, this was a great explanation. Thanks! And my apologies to Eric: my response was intended to be good-natured, but in re-reading it, I guess it actually looks pretty hostile. Unfortunately, I didn't really make my point clear. I didn't mean to try to defend my "dumb question", or even to defend myself personally. My reaction was to the people who are glad that Linux isn't too easy, because they enjoy the challenge. Adversity builds character, I guess. If you like to do things the hard way, then fine. But it doesn't really mean that you're more intelligent or more knowledgeable than people who click a few buttons in a GUI to accomplish the same thing. Most of us just don't like spending our leisure time editing files in the /etc directory or browsing through the kernel headers. We're not asking to be "spoon-fed" or to be freed from the burden of thinking; we're just looking for the most efficient way to do what we want to do. Thanks to everyone who replied helpfully. Now, can someone please tell me which package contains the HOWTOs in HTML format? :-) - Kris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:35 PM To: Kirk Hogenson Cc: Kristopher Johnson; debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE Kirk Hogenson wrote: [incredibly helpful explanation snipped] > > I hope this helps, and good luck getting your sound card working. > And please ask here if you run into problems. You are immune to > "What a dumb question" attacks if you've read the Howto. :) > > Kirk I'm not part of this thread, but I just wanted to say that Kirk's explanation is EXCELLENT! It's got non-technospeak explanations; it's got a couple of simple real-world examples; it's just a great document. This is what a lot of newbies want (and even some of us semi-newbies).
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
I kind of hate to jump into a string like this but at the risk of sounding real stupid how can one create this /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz file. I've searched for it on my Slink system and it just isn't there. I took a look at the dpkg man page and see no reference to the file. I see that you can look for packages in /var/lib/dpkg/available but that's not the same. Thanks, kent Kirk Hogenson wrote: > > Eric Gillespie, Jr. wrote: > > For example, someone asked if there was a package > > containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, > > he should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he > > can find things on his own instead of asking the list every time. > > Remember, catch a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man > > to fish, and he'll never starve again. > > Kristopher Johnson wrote: > > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed > > like a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both > > dselect and on the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. And I > > started paging through the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave > > up after an hour or so of that. > > I don't want to speak for Eric, but I really doubt he was saying > that you were asking a dumb question. I think he was instead > criticising those who answered by just telling you which package you > needed, rather than telling you how you find this information out > for yourself. > > That way, the next time you have a question of the form "I need to > find out which package has ", you won't need to ask again. > Even more than that, you perhaps might see someone else ask a > question like that, and pass the information on. > > Please don't feel bad for asking "dumb" questions! (Though I really > think you were asking a good question, but even if it were a dumb > question you should not feel bad for asking it.) That is what > debian-user is for. > > Anyway, let me describe what Eric was talking about. The file > /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz contains information about which > package contains what. If you want to find the HOWTO's, for > example, try something like: > > zgrep HOWTO /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less > > This searches through the Contents file and prints all of the lines > that contain the word HOWTO. > > As another example: suppose you are compiling something and you get > the error: "sgml2html: command not found". This happened to me > last night. I tried: > > zgrep sgml2html /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less > > and it printed: > > usr/bin/sgml2html text/sgml-tools > usr/man/man1/sgml2html.1.gz text/sgml-tools > > So, I knew that I need to install the package "sgml-tools", which > is in the "text" section. > > I hope this helps, and good luck getting your sound card working. > And please ask here if you run into problems. You are immune to > "What a dumb question" attacks if you've read the Howto. :) > > Kirk > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 09:11:49AM -0700 In reply to:Clyde Wilson Quoting Clyde Wilson([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Eric Gillespie, Jr. wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54AM +0200, > > Urban Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) > > > ) > > > > > > > It is not Wintendo that makes people forget how to think, it is something > > We should not encourage this process. I see so many questions on this list > > that shouldn't be answered. Instead, the user should be told how to use > > man pages, info pages, etc. For example, someone asked if there was a > > package > > containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, he > > should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he can find > > things on his own instead of asking the list every time. Remember, catch > > a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man to fish, and he'll > > never starve again. > > Or, answer a technical question and you keep your user happy for a day. > Teach him to program and you loose your job... Or, give a man a fish feed him for a day teach a man to fish feed him for LIFE. I happen to agree with Eric. I really think we are doing a dis-service by just giving the answers out. If they don't learn to find the answers themselves, they will ask first, why work if someone is willing to spoon feed you. As an example, look how many people have to ask "how do I unsubscribe". I believe it is better that they 'do' unsubscribe because they don't even understand the statement at the bottom of every message on this list. Just my 2 1/2 cents. I was an Instructor for far to long, I guess. -- Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations, software doesn't. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O. ___ Wayne T. Topa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
i could not possibly agree more with Eric on this one. People are so spoon-fed on GUIs that tell you how to do everything. When you use something like Linux you need basic computer knowledge or you learn the hard way. It isn't "easy" but it's fun once you get used to it. add|t|on, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://e0i-cyberpimps.virtualave.net help, I got sucked into /dev/null - Original Message - From: E.L. Meijer (Eric) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 4:07 AM Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE > > > > Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good > > actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions > > how to get started... > > This is getting on my nerves... > > * go to www.debian.org > * note the section `Getting Started', which is the second below > `What is Debian' > * actually _read_ this section (all of both sentences), and discover you > need to click on the link Release information in this section. > * click > * Note the header `New Installations', and the links > > Install Manual for SPARC > Install Manual for Intel x86 > Install Manual for Alpha > Install Manual for Motorola 680x0 > > below it. > * click on, say `Install Manual for Intel x86' (if that is what you > want) > * you now find yourself reading the installation manual > > All this involves *two* clicks from the main debian pages, and reading > maybe 30 lines of text. If this `definitely not easy' for someone, I > figure this person needs to acquire some more basic computer skills > before attempting to install anything at all on their computer. > > Eric > > -- > E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Eindhoven Univ. of Technology > Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA) > > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null > >
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Kirk Hogenson wrote: > > > Anyway, let me describe what Eric was talking about. The file > /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz contains information about which > package contains what. If you want to find the HOWTO's, for > example, try something like: > > zgrep HOWTO /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less > > This searches through the Contents file and prints all of the lines > that contain the word HOWTO. > > As another example: suppose you are compiling something and you get > the error: "sgml2html: command not found". This happened to me > last night. I tried: > > zgrep sgml2html /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less > > and it printed: > > usr/bin/sgml2html text/sgml-tools > usr/man/man1/sgml2html.1.gz text/sgml-tools > > So, I knew that I need to install the package "sgml-tools", which > is in the "text" section. > > I hope this helps, and good luck getting your sound card working. > And please ask here if you run into problems. You are immune to > "What a dumb question" attacks if you've read the Howto. :) > > Kirk I'm not part of this thread, but I just wanted to say that Kirk's explanation is EXCELLENT! It's got non-technospeak explanations; it's got a couple of simple real-world examples; it's just a great document. This is what a lot of newbies want (and even some of us semi-newbies).
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Another place to find that elusive package is by searching through the available package database in /var/lib/dpkg/available with something like less -i I use that a lot. You may have to tweak your string a bit or show patience when searching, because some words are used a lot. Ciao! -- "Harp not on that string." -- William Shakespeare (Henry VI) The Doctor What: A really hip dude http://www.gerf.org/~docwhat/ [EMAIL PROTECTED](finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP key) KF6VNC
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Eric Gillespie, Jr. wrote: > On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54AM +0200, > Urban Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) > > ) > > > > It is not Wintendo that makes people forget how to think, it is something > We should not encourage this process. I see so many questions on this list > that shouldn't be answered. Instead, the user should be told how to use > man pages, info pages, etc. For example, someone asked if there was a package > containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, he > should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he can find > things on his own instead of asking the list every time. Remember, catch > a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man to fish, and he'll > never starve again. Or, answer a technical question and you keep your user happy for a day. Teach him to program and you loose your job...
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, E.L. Meijer (Eric) wrote: > > > > Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good > > actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions > > how to get started... > > This is getting on my nerves... > > * go to www.debian.org > * note the section `Getting Started', which is the second below > `What is Debian' > * actually _read_ this section (all of both sentences), and discover you > need to click on the link Release information in this section. > * click > * Note the header `New Installations', and the links > > Install Manual for SPARC > Install Manual for Intel x86 > Install Manual for Alpha > Install Manual for Motorola 680x0 > > below it. > * click on, say `Install Manual for Intel x86' (if that is what you > want) > * you now find yourself reading the installation manual > > All this involves *two* clicks from the main debian pages, and reading > maybe 30 lines of text. If this `definitely not easy' for someone, I > figure this person needs to acquire some more basic computer skills > before attempting to install anything at all on their computer. You don't see the problem here? These links are more or less embedded in the pages and less than obvious. I count at least three clicks to even begin to find info on how to get Debian. Not to mention, once you find the "Installing Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 For Intel x86" page, you have to read 20 pages before you even find out what to download! Its section 5 where it even begins to say how to get Debian! At this point, I'd just like to mention that I am very well experienced with Linux, and I have absolutely no problem installing Debian. But around here they call me the local "Linux expert". I just helped a friend where in the research lab where I work install Debian on his computer. This is a guy who uses Solaris every day, and know Xemacs inside and out. He's an intelligent, and very computer literate person. Yet it took him quite a while to just find out what the hell he needed to download! If it weren't for him having someone like me there, he would have just gotten fed up and gone with Red Hat. Without a doubt, the installation instructions on the web need reorganization. On the top bar or the page, one of the buttons should be "Install Debian" or "Get Debian". It should very plainly give the exact steps to get started with installing Debian. The "Intro" under the "Distribution" link is a good start, but the rest of that page leaves the newbie confused. After the "Intro" should be sections describing where to get the floppies, and how to make them. This should be a SHORT simple page. After telling them how to make the floppies and telling them the next step is to insert the rescue floppy into the drive, it could THEN refer them to the longer and more detailed "Installing Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 For" whatever arch document. I think my point is that the "meat" of the info is buried way to far in the site. Even intelligent people find it difficult to find, its only us experienced Debian users that don't have a problem with it. Besides, the web pages have to be revised to use the official logo anyway. :)
Re: be more simple
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, E.L. Meijer (Eric) wrote:
> People are often lazy. A lot of things might be improved about the
> debian website, but if people argue things like `it is hard to find the
> installation manual on the web site', they just didn't try. Most of
> the mails on this list tend to be helpful and informative, by any
> usenet or mailing list standard.
No-one probably said that 'it is hard to find the installation manual...'
In my opinion it very easy to *find*. In a sense it isn't even so
difficult to read. (I even translated about a third into Finnish (, before
I realized that some others had a similar project.)) In another sense it
isn't so easy to read. You have to go through a lot of *technical
descriptions about* computers and about different combinations of hardware
and so on, before... Just compared to rh manual it is quite technical,
filled with technical jargon. In my opinion it is quite good even amusing
at parts, however.
A 'Simplistic American Way' of writing, like
*do* first this and next *do* that...
works often the easiest way with machines?
('Learning by doing' by John Dewey)
If difficulties
arise by 'doing this and that' you can consult more technical information,
what could be wrong behind the bars?
It is mainly a matter of style. Being simple and concrete or complex and
detailed. Often detailed, technical instructions miss the point, because a
newcomer cannot know, what is the important main issue, what is just a
side story? That was my impression, when I switched from rh to suse. When
I came to Debian I had already seen too many instruction books for Linux
to really see the style with fresh eyes.
-hv
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Eric Gillespie, Jr. wrote: > For example, someone asked if there was a package > containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, > he should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he > can find things on his own instead of asking the list every time. > Remember, catch a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man > to fish, and he'll never starve again. Kristopher Johnson wrote: > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed > like a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both > dselect and on the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. And I > started paging through the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave > up after an hour or so of that. I don't want to speak for Eric, but I really doubt he was saying that you were asking a dumb question. I think he was instead criticising those who answered by just telling you which package you needed, rather than telling you how you find this information out for yourself. That way, the next time you have a question of the form "I need to find out which package has ", you won't need to ask again. Even more than that, you perhaps might see someone else ask a question like that, and pass the information on. Please don't feel bad for asking "dumb" questions! (Though I really think you were asking a good question, but even if it were a dumb question you should not feel bad for asking it.) That is what debian-user is for. Anyway, let me describe what Eric was talking about. The file /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz contains information about which package contains what. If you want to find the HOWTO's, for example, try something like: zgrep HOWTO /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less This searches through the Contents file and prints all of the lines that contain the word HOWTO. As another example: suppose you are compiling something and you get the error: "sgml2html: command not found". This happened to me last night. I tried: zgrep sgml2html /var/lib/dpkg/Contents-i386.gz | less and it printed: usr/bin/sgml2html text/sgml-tools usr/man/man1/sgml2html.1.gz text/sgml-tools So, I knew that I need to install the package "sgml-tools", which is in the "text" section. I hope this helps, and good luck getting your sound card working. And please ask here if you run into problems. You are immune to "What a dumb question" attacks if you've read the Howto. :) Kirk
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
> > I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed like > a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both dselect and on > the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. And I started paging through > the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave up after an hour or so of > that. Maybe it would help if the package was named "doc-howto" or something > useful like that, or if it was installed as part of the "Complete Developer > Workstation" profile I selected when installing Debian. The howto's are in doc-linux-text (as text) or in doc-linux-html (as ... html). I have a fresh slink install where they were in doc-linux. Maybe because of this transition they were hard to find? If you want to browse through packages, a good place to start is http://www.nl.debian.org/distrib/packages. There you can find short descriptions in several sections. > I agree that it would be helpful for more questions on this list to be > answered with instructions on how to find the information. But I see too > many messages on this list (and throughout the Linux community) saying > "people are stupid" or "people are lazy" when they ask questions that have > "obvious" answers. People are often lazy. A lot of things might be improved about the debian website, but if people argue things like `it is hard to find the installation manual on the web site', they just didn't try. Most of the mails on this list tend to be helpful and informative, by any usenet or mailing list standard. The kind of reaction invoked by a question depends mostly on the tone. `I CAN'T FIND SHIT ON YER STINKIN WEB PAGE, NOW WHERE ARE THE HOWTOZZ?' is usually not responded very friendly to, whereas `How do I setup sound on my PC?' does get informative responses most of the time. HTH, Eric -- E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Eindhoven Univ. of Technology Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA)
RE: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
I'm the guy that asked which package had the HOWTOs. I know it seemed like a dumb question, but I did try searching on "HOWTO" in both dselect and on the Debian web site, and came up with nothing. And I started paging through the 2700+ packages shown in dselect, but gave up after an hour or so of that. Maybe it would help if the package was named "doc-howto" or something useful like that, or if it was installed as part of the "Complete Developer Workstation" profile I selected when installing Debian. I agree that it would be helpful for more questions on this list to be answered with instructions on how to find the information. But I see too many messages on this list (and throughout the Linux community) saying "people are stupid" or "people are lazy" when they ask questions that have "obvious" answers. I think I'm a pretty smart and resourceful guy, and the whole reason I'm using Linux is to learn about it. If I was lazy, I would have just asked "How do I set up sound on my machine", which is what I really wanted to know. But, instead, I looked for the HOWTOs on my machine, couldn't find them, searched for them in dselect and on the Debian website, and finally decided it would be easier to ask a simple question than to install every Debian package hoping to magically wind up with HOWTOs installed. I know that there are some people who emerge from the womb knowing how to configure device drivers and write perl scripts. But the rest of us stupid people need some help once in a while, and find it discouraging to be called lazy or stupid when we do ask. We're not looking to have anything spoon-fed to us--we just need a little guidance when we hit a brick wall. - Kris -Original Message- From: Eric Gillespie, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 3:01 AM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54AM +0200, Urban Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) > ) > > I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of > what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. > It is not Wintendo that makes people forget how to think, it is something else. This is a problem with people in general, not just in relation to computers. No one wants to think, because they're used to having things spoon-fed to them. That's what "push" content was all about, people have to be kept glued to the TVs, we can't have them going back to reading, learning, and thinking. We should not encourage this process. I see so many questions on this list that shouldn't be answered. Instead, the user should be told how to use man pages, info pages, etc. For example, someone asked if there was a package containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, he should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he can find things on his own instead of asking the list every time. Remember, catch a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man to fish, and he'll never starve again. -- Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you try to out-weird me! I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal! --Zaphod Beeblebrox
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, E.L. Meijer (Eric) wrote: > > > > Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good > > actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions > > how to get started... > > This is getting on my nerves... So just forget it. Everything can be made better. Or worse. It is just a matter of taste. -hv
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
> > Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good > actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions > how to get started... This is getting on my nerves... * go to www.debian.org * note the section `Getting Started', which is the second below `What is Debian' * actually _read_ this section (all of both sentences), and discover you need to click on the link Release information in this section. * click * Note the header `New Installations', and the links Install Manual for SPARC Install Manual for Intel x86 Install Manual for Alpha Install Manual for Motorola 680x0 below it. * click on, say `Install Manual for Intel x86' (if that is what you want) * you now find yourself reading the installation manual All this involves *two* clicks from the main debian pages, and reading maybe 30 lines of text. If this `definitely not easy' for someone, I figure this person needs to acquire some more basic computer skills before attempting to install anything at all on their computer. Eric -- E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Eindhoven Univ. of Technology Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (SKA)
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54AM +0200, Urban Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) > ) > > I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of > what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. > It is not Wintendo that makes people forget how to think, it is something else. This is a problem with people in general, not just in relation to computers. No one wants to think, because they're used to having things spoon-fed to them. That's what "push" content was all about, people have to be kept glued to the TVs, we can't have them going back to reading, learning, and thinking. We should not encourage this process. I see so many questions on this list that shouldn't be answered. Instead, the user should be told how to use man pages, info pages, etc. For example, someone asked if there was a package containing the Howtos. Instead of telling him the name of the package, he should have been told how to grep the Contents file, that way he can find things on his own instead of asking the list every time. Remember, catch a man a fish and you feed him that day, teach the man to fish, and he'll never starve again. -- Eric Gillespie, Jr. <*> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you try to out-weird me! I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal! --Zaphod Beeblebrox
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Urban Gabor wrote: > The moral from the original rather rash message can serve very good the > whole Linux/Debian community. It is indeed very hard to convince people to > use Linux when the starting informaiton is filled with jargon. I agree quite completely. > The users > coming from the M$ world are definitly used to be lazy in brains. I meen > no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) I don't aree with this. M$ is much easier to install and to get started. But it doesn't make you forget thinking. It just makes you to think about other things, besides engineering design of programs. Like to do some useful work with a computer. There are some examples of much much simpler installations and installation manuals than the Debian one existing in linux community, too. For example rh manual. Compare that with the suse manual! There is a big difference. > > I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of > what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. This is exactly the point of the difference between suse and rh. Rh manual is telling what to do, suse manual telling what is behind doing. Often suse manual is missing altogether the advice, what to do even if it explains many many different possibilities, which can go wrong. I' sorry to write about other distributions on this list, but this kind of comparision makes the original comment understandable. Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions how to get started... It might help to write some specific step by step guide for the people, who aren't so interested in technical design? - hv
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:31:54 +0200, Urban Gabor wrote: > I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of > what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. There's a Dutch saying "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" which amounts to "the best drivers are standing on the sideway": it's much easier to complain than to do something about it. You won't hear me complaining about the Debian website, or the installation document. I (co)maintained the website and FAQ in their original incarnations, and I know how much work they are. I have a lot of respect for the people who now do that work. Where I think they can do better, I'll offer to help, or phrase my remarks as constructively as possible. If you have a problem with part of Debian, the current website already tells you how you can help Debian (http://www.debian.org/devel/help). Ray -- ART A friend of mine in Tulsa, Okla., when I was about eleven years old. I'd be interested to hear from him. There are so many pseudos around taking his name in vain. - The Hipcrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
I do not want to continue the line, but I could not withold some comments: The moral from the original rather rash message can serve very good the whole Linux/Debian community. It is indeed very hard to convince people to use Linux when the starting informaiton is filled with jargon. The users coming from the M$ world are definitly used to be lazy in brains. I meen no disrespect, but M$ makes you forget thinking. (Cf the subscription! :-) ) I would suggest an other install description with step-by-step texts of what to do. And redesinging Debian web site can help a lot. Gabor Urban --- Lufthansa Systems Hungaria KfT mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel : (36)-1-431-2949 Fax :(36)-1-431-2977 I am not a cat to play with the mouse.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
I've tried installing, tweaking and otherwise USING many different dists, including redhat and slackware aside from debian... never found one yet that was easier or more convenient, but maybe that's just my opinion. debian was the first dist i ever installed as well as my first linux experience. in fact i had never even partitioned a hard drive before until i tried my hand at debian... read docs at the ftp site, downloaded the appropriate things in the disks area and presto...i was successful and had everything up and running quicker than i ever got windoze working. anyone who thinks debian is too difficult to install... i don't know... i can't see it. read the documentation. add|t|on, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://e0i-cyberpimps.virtualave.net help, I got sucked into /dev/null - Original Message - From: debian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Shao Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Craig McPherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; John Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 1:25 AM Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE > I agree George.. I went from Slackware (used it for 4 years) to using Debian > just 7 days ago.. Debian and apt-get rocks. > > > > >Sorry to advertize another distro on the Debian list : ) but this might > >not be a bad option if one is just trying out linux and doesn't want to > >repartition, and personally... it was a pretty natural progression to go > >from Slackware to Debian... > > > > > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null > >
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Judith Bush wrote: > > My experience yesterday helps me sympathize with the original > poster. My personal installation last year went beautifully as i ran > from a bootable cd. On the other hand, I run debian at work, where i'm > developing a kiosk system. I've a handful of thin clients -- NONE WITH > CD ROM DRIVES -- set up by a vendor. I'd forgotten their password. The > boot/rescue disks that they included didn't work. I decided i wanted > to make rescue disks (one one of the systems I've had going for a > while). I can remember with slackware system had the boot/root disks > quite findable with clear instructions on how to build them from both > the DOS & linux OS. I could not find anything like that for Debian, > although i did find the DOS tools directory. > > So, maybe where the initial boot up stuff is could be pulled out, or > at least a top level symbolic link so that one doesn't have to dig... > > Or maybe *i* missed something, too. The "Installation Manual for Intel x86" has the listing of the base floppy images, as well as links to them. Alternatively, they're under "dists/[un]stable/main/disks-i386/current".
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On 09-Jun-99 Kenneth Scharf wrote: >>I cannot install Debian from my Cheapbytes Slink CD >without the base >>floppies, >>but I believe I can do it from the Hamm CD, also from >Cheapbytes. > With >>the >>Slink CD, the installation stops because of an error >with the ncurses >>package. > Hmmm I did not have this problem installing on my other computer (The > install didn't go through all the way, but this was because LILO > couldn't be installed due to the way the HD was formated. I didn't see > any problem with the ncurses package. Exactly which step did you die > on. I got all the way though networking (which I skipped) then tried > to install lilo. It starts to install (I did not select my packages but selected the custom install and then answered the questions about what I wanted to do with my system) and then quits after installing a few packages. I don't have this problem if I install from the base disks first. Also, I believe I can install ncurses manually and then continue, but I am not sure. -- Andrew
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
>I cannot install Debian from my Cheapbytes Slink CD >without the base >floppies, >but I believe I can do it from the Hamm CD, also from >Cheapbytes. With >the >Slink CD, the installation stops because of an error >with the ncurses >package. Hmmm I did not have this problem installing on my other computer (The install didn't go through all the way, but this was because LILO couldn't be installed due to the way the HD was formated. I didn't see any problem with the ncurses package. Exactly which step did you die on. I got all the way though networking (which I skipped) then tried to install lilo. === Amateur Radio, when all else fails! http://www.qsl.net/wa2mze Debian Gnu Linux, Live Free or . _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On 09-Jun-99 Paulo J. da Silva e Silva wrote: > Pollywog writes: > > Is there a place where I can get a bootable CD to install from so that I > don't > > need the base floppies? CheapBytes disks seem to have problems in this > regard > > (some versions). > > > > -- > > Andrew > > > > I have already installed four home systems booting from cheapbytes cds. No > problems at all. But you may be right... I must have a good version > Or maybe the problem is between my chair and keyboard, since others have not had the same problem I had with the Slink CD. -- Andrew
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On 09-Jun-99 Kenneth Scharf wrote: > >>Hmmm, I got my discs from cheapbytes and they boot >fine. In fact all > of >>my cheapbytes discs boot okay. Actually that's a bit >misleading since > I >>only have three sets ;) > Cheap bytes had got a bad rap when they blew the dependancies and > simlinks on debian 2.0 and included a bad upgrad script. (even then > the cd's were not REALLY broken, I did an install from scratch with > them and it worked fine). There is nothing wrong with the current > debian 2.1 from cheap bytes (other than no non-free this time). > I cannot install Debian from my Cheapbytes Slink CD without the base floppies, but I believe I can do it from the Hamm CD, also from Cheapbytes. With the Slink CD, the installation stops because of an error with the ncurses package. -- Andrew
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
>Hmmm, I got my discs from cheapbytes and they boot >fine. In fact all of >my cheapbytes discs boot okay. Actually that's a bit >misleading since I >only have three sets ;) Cheap bytes had got a bad rap when they blew the dependancies and simlinks on debian 2.0 and included a bad upgrad script. (even then the cd's were not REALLY broken, I did an install from scratch with them and it worked fine). There is nothing wrong with the current debian 2.1 from cheap bytes (other than no non-free this time). Installing from the net can be real hard for newbies. There is a catch-22 here, you have to have enough of a system up to access the net (means seting up PPP and a dial up connection to your ISP or getting DHCP /ethernet going if you have a hard-wired connection). This can involve as many as 10 floppies full of stuff. To get this you need another computer already setup with a net connection running 'nix or windows. If you only have the one computer then you might as well start off with the CD set (or get a friend to download you the floppies ... two or three sets of 'em just in case of Murphy's law). Of course once you HAVE your system up and running and on the net upgrades via the net are easy(ier). I havn't tried to upgrade (other than manually, one package at a time) via the net, if I had a second phone line or a BroadBand hardwired connection maybe I would not be chicken to try..(not the lack of speed, but not being able to tie up my phone for hours on end) :-< === Amateur Radio, when all else fails! http://www.qsl.net/wa2mze Debian Gnu Linux, Live Free or . _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Pollywog writes: > Is there a place where I can get a bootable CD to install from so that I > don't > need the base floppies? CheapBytes disks seem to have problems in this > regard > (some versions). > > -- > Andrew > I have already installed four home systems booting from cheapbytes cds. No problems at all. But you may be right... I must have a good version Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ph.D. Student in Applied Math. University of São Paulo - Brazil http://www.ime.usp.br/~rsilva "May the code be with you" :-)
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Well, I'm not a linux newbie, and I've been using debian for almost a year. First, praise: I installed slackware from scratch in '95. I installed debian from scratch in '98. If M$ could make a ease-of-use jump that large in 3 years i wouldn't care if they took over the world. They can't. We can. [Insert the playground taunting of a six-year-old.] Second, criticism: I think the debian distribution web page *could* be organized a bit more. A simple suggestion is that when one clicks on 'support' in the red button bar at the top, one should be able to get to the documentation page from there -- those nav elements should echo the site 'map' in the pale blue table on the left. I can understand a newbie who finds most of the jargon frustrating going to the support page and figuring the only options for help are IRC, the mailing list, and paid consultants, missing the great documentation. My experience yesterday helps me sympathize with the original poster. My personal installation last year went beautifully as i ran from a bootable cd. On the other hand, I run debian at work, where i'm developing a kiosk system. I've a handful of thin clients -- NONE WITH CD ROM DRIVES -- set up by a vendor. I'd forgotten their password. The boot/rescue disks that they included didn't work. I decided i wanted to make rescue disks (one one of the systems I've had going for a while). I can remember with slackware system had the boot/root disks quite findable with clear instructions on how to build them from both the DOS & linux OS. I could not find anything like that for Debian, although i did find the DOS tools directory. So, maybe where the initial boot up stuff is could be pulled out, or at least a top level symbolic link so that one doesn't have to dig... Or maybe *i* missed something, too. Anyhow, if the original poster is still reading this -- once you go through the struggle of installation, Debian is a joy to maintain! IRIX is *almost* as nice to maintain, as long as you use all of SGI's development stuff (their C, gack). Win95 doesn't come close. (BTW i did see mkrboot's man page -- but i wasn't up to then digging around to figure out how to build a compressed root image. I'll figure that out when i get around to building an installation for my Thinkpad 750C) Cheers, j
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
debian wrote: > > I agree George.. I went from Slackware (used it for 4 years) to using Debian > just 7 days ago.. Debian and apt-get rocks. > Amen! I installed SuSE and RedHat on my other computer, and then realized that I couldn't upgrade quite as easily. Needless to say, I scrubbed its drives and installed Debian. -- __ _ Mark Wagnon Debian GNU/ -o) / / (_)__ __ __ Chula Vista, CA /\\/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ http://www.debian.org
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Pollywog wrote: > > On 09-Jun-99 Craig McPherson wrote: > > 5. Don't get frustrated! For me, figuring out which files I had to > > download to get a base system up & running was much harder than > > the installation itself! :) (well, except for rescuing my partition table > > from the brink of oblivion, that was kinda nerve-wracking) > > REMEMBER: install.txt is your friend! Read it, read it again, save it, > > print it out, pray to it for good luck, etc. > > > > Here's the addy of the file on one of the FTP sites: > > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks- > > i386/current/install.txt > > > > And the directory containing the files that you'll need to download in > > order to boot into Linux for the first time: > > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks-i386/current/ > > Is there a place where I can get a bootable CD to install from so that I don't > need the base floppies? CheapBytes disks seem to have problems in this regard > (some versions). Hmmm, I got my discs from cheapbytes and they boot fine. In fact all of my cheapbytes discs boot okay. Actually that's a bit misleading since I only have three sets ;) -- __ _ Mark Wagnon Debian GNU/ -o) / / (_)__ __ __ Chula Vista, CA /\\/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ http://www.debian.org
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
I agree George.. I went from Slackware (used it for 4 years) to using Debian just 7 days ago.. Debian and apt-get rocks. > >Sorry to advertize another distro on the Debian list : ) but this might >not be a bad option if one is just trying out linux and doesn't want to >repartition, and personally... it was a pretty natural progression to go >from Slackware to Debian... >
RE: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
John, I am also a newbie, and let me tell you that the frustration will not stop here. The configuration will take a bit of coming to grips with as well. Having said that, I am not trying to be negativewhat I would like to also say is that there is a tremendous learning curve ahead of you, and as you achieve each small goal, you will find it to be rewarding and well worth while. So hang in there ! regards, Andrew > -Original Message- > From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 1:58 PM > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Subject: BE MORE SIMPLE > > > > Webmaster at Debian, > > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 > MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no > singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO > in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY > FILES one at a time!! Please, if you expect any users other than > 24-hour computer junkies to use your software, get your act together > and SHOW me a very obvious link that allows me, the USER, the Customer, > to easily down all 2250 files in one hit. As of this moment I don't > even know where to start, even though I've been at you site for 30 > minutes! If you haven't recieved hundreds of e-mails like this, I can > assure it's because the potential Debian/Linux user gets so fed up, > that they simply give up and stick with Windows because even Microsoft > knows how to deal with actual people. I don't want you to do everything > for me, but PLEASE make a SINGLE download, even a zip containing all > those files, so that I don't have to spend 5 hours trying to install > YOUR software! The public wants Linux and Open Software, but your > making it very hard to adjust, even for some one who is a hobbiest in > writing simple java and C++ apps. Thank you for reading. > > -Hopefully, a soon to be satisfied user > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe > [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null >
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
If you really want linux-in-a-file... I believe Slackware has a ZipSlack distribution... Slackware in one big ( 30something megs? ) Zip file you stick on your M$ partition unzip, and loadlin into... for this and lots of other Linux goodies try: ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux Sorry to advertize another distro on the Debian list : ) but this might not be a bad option if one is just trying out linux and doesn't want to repartition, and personally... it was a pretty natural progression to go from Slackware to Debian... --George
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 23:26:35 -0600, Craig McPherson wrote: > Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: BE MORE SIMPLE > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b14) > X-UIDL: d2077d16c3127d4bf73a47a47027a8d9 > As one Debian newbie to another, As a non-newbie ... > Thirty minutes is NOT that long to spend on a Linux problem. ... I can offer a resounding AMEN to that! Linux is about learning (a.k.a. RTFM, etc.) and the best part of the problem solving process is the learning that you get out of it en route to a solution. Learning to *enjoy* the learning process is the best skill a Linux newbie can acquire. Not doing so is, well, unwise at best, and likely to lead to a very brief time using Linux before giving up, IMO. > Be patient, read all the documentation you can find, > try stuff, and then read the documentation again. Exactly. > 3. Off-topic: if you did want to download an entire large FTP > directory, downloading the files individually would NOT be wise, > when there are so many freeware FTP programs that can do such a > job for you. Check Tucows under the FTP section if you ever need > to download a lot of files from an FTP site. However, there's no > need to do that to install Debian... apt-get does a wonderful job. I'm not sure what Tucows is, but wget will handle this, as will a number of other Debian packages that I've seen. But yes, apt-get is wonderful, isn't it? :-) Anyone running a Debian system who hasn't met apt-get is in for a pleasant surprise. Example: # apt-get update ; apt-get install wget ... acquires, installs and configures the package I mentioned above. -- PGP Public Key available on request: Type Bits/KeyIDDate User ID pub 1024/CFED2D11 1998/03/05 Lazarus Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Key fingerprint = 98 2A 56 34 16 76 D5 21 39 93 99 EA 89 D4 B5 A2
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Tue, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:26:35PM -0600, Craig McPherson wrote: > On 8 Jun 99, at 20:57, John Hall wrote: > > > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 > > MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no > > singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO > > in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY > > FILES one at a time!! It is not 2250 files, but 2250 packages.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On 09-Jun-99 Craig McPherson wrote: > 5. Don't get frustrated! For me, figuring out which files I had to > download to get a base system up & running was much harder than > the installation itself! :) (well, except for rescuing my partition table > from the brink of oblivion, that was kinda nerve-wracking) > REMEMBER: install.txt is your friend! Read it, read it again, save it, > print it out, pray to it for good luck, etc. > > Here's the addy of the file on one of the FTP sites: > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks- > i386/current/install.txt > > And the directory containing the files that you'll need to download in > order to boot into Linux for the first time: > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks-i386/current/ Is there a place where I can get a bootable CD to install from so that I don't need the base floppies? CheapBytes disks seem to have problems in this regard (some versions). -- Andrew
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Robert Rati wrote: > You are obviously frustrated, but you can get > more flies with honey than vinegar. But he wants more "files", not "flies". Sorry. ;-)
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
John Hall wrote: > > Webmaster at Debian, > > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 PS: When you go to the Installion Instructions page, then you'll need to select the installation instructions for the architecture of your machine (probably Intel x86); that link will take you to http://www.debian.org/releases/slink/i386/install which is what you need to read to get started.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
John Hall wrote:
>
> Webmaster at Debian,
>
> How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30
> MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no
> singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO
> in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY
> FILES one at a time!! Please, if you expect any users other than
> 24-hour computer junkies to use your software, get your act together
> and SHOW me a very obvious link that allows me, the USER, the Customer,
> to easily down all 2250 files in one hit. As of this moment I don't
> even know where to start, even though I've been at you site for 30
> minutes! If you haven't recieved hundreds of e-mails like this, I can
> assure it's because the potential Debian/Linux user gets so fed up,
> that they simply give up and stick with Windows because even Microsoft
> knows how to deal with actual people. I don't want you to do everything
> for me, but PLEASE make a SINGLE download, even a zip containing all
> those files, so that I don't have to spend 5 hours trying to install
> YOUR software! The public wants Linux and Open Software, but your
> making it very hard to adjust, even for some one who is a hobbiest in
> writing simple java and C++ apps. Thank you for reading.
>
> -Hopefully, a soon to be satisfied user
> _
I'm not the webmaster, but I was a beginner fairly recently, so I'll
make a few comments. I assume the site you're going to is
www.debian.org. On the left hand side of the screen at that page is a
blue section with several categories ("Home", "About", "News",
"Distribution", "Support", etc); Under the "Distribution" link is an
"Installation Instructions" link. It could stand some improvement, but
overall it's readable for most people, much more so than a lot of the
documentation I've seen. This document will give you the basics of
getting started, and is highly recommended reading.
Concerning the 2250 files: you don't want to download all those files.
Those are collections of programs, kindda like if you went to your local
Joe's Super Software Store and walked along the shelves of software
packages. "You need a text editor? We got text editors; we got Joe, we
got emacs, we got vi, we got vim, we got...etc etc etc". You don't want
every package; just the ones you'll use.
Further, the basic install is MUCH smaller, only about 10 files or so
(about 10 diskettes worth). Of course, the basic install is VERY basic.
However, it's your first step. Once you have the basic install done,
then you can use the tools in it (dselect, dpkg, apt) along with some
sort of networking (LAN, dial-up PPP to your local ISP, etc, again,
included in the basic install) to install additional packages, such as
the X Window system, and games, and web browsers, and word processor.
Aalternatively, and this is what many people have recommended, purchase
a CD set from one of the dealers, such as CheapBytes. That way you have
all the files you need right there locally; no downloading needed. (By
the way, trying to download all 2250 files would be like trying to
download all of Windows NT and Service Pack 5 and Office 97 and it's
latest service pack and etc etc etc - you don't want all the packages,
just enough for what you need today.)
Be aware that, in my opinion, Linux is NOT ready for the average Joe
User on the desktop, this year. It's getting close, and for the brave of
heart such as yourself it will be very rewarding. But it will not be an
easy journey, especially coming from the world of Windows. Microsoft
excels at glitter and shine; Linux excels at stability and power. This
stability and power has been developed at the expense of glitter and
shine, although that is coming along fairly well now. I say this so you
won't get too frustrated along the way and think how Windows is easier;
part of that ease is simply that you're more familiar with it; part of
it is that Microsoft did a good job on some of the ease factors.
Again in my opinion, one of the weakest areas of Linux is documentation
for the beginner. However, this list is an excellent resource for those
pioneering Windows users who choose to try out Debian.
I can certainly understand your frustration; but you'll do okay. Read
the Installation Instructions as I mentioned, and then holler when you
hit a snag (you will hit a snag; trust me).
It'll be hard, but fun, and rewarding.
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On 8 Jun 99, at 20:57, John Hall wrote: > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 > MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no > singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO > in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY > FILES one at a time!! *snip* As one Debian newbie to another, let me offer some advice. First, let me say that I can understand your frustration. About the only thing that I don't love about Debian is what seems to be a shortage of documentation compared to other distributions, and the first time this bothered me was when I spent much longer than 30 minutes trying to figure out just what it is I needed to download. HOWEVER, patience does pay off, and getting frustrated rarely solves problems. Thirty minutes is NOT that long to spend on a Linux problem. Be patient, read all the documentation you can find, try stuff, and then read the documentation again. It turns out that the solution to your problem is fairly simple, and I will share a few tips: 1. You don't WANT to download 2250 files. Why in the world would you want to? I can't imagine one human being wanting to use every single Debian package, and even if someone did, it would be MUCH faster and easier to download them with APT-get. (more on that later) 2. To the best of my knowledge, there is no single file that contains the entire Debian distribution except for the CD image, which is only useful if you want to burn a CD. I could be wrong about this, but regardless, there's really no need to download the entire distribution. 3. Off-topic: if you did want to download an entire large FTP directory, downloading the files individually would NOT be wise, when there are so many freeware FTP programs that can do such a job for you. Check Tucows under the FTP section if you ever need to download a lot of files from an FTP site. However, there's no need to do that to install Debian... apt-get does a wonderful job. 4. (here's the key) There is a small file in the slink/main/disks- i386/current directory of any of the Debian FTP sites called install.txt. This file is your FRIEND... read it, and it will mostly be smooth sailing from there (mostly).It will tell you want files you do need (all you need to download right now are a few files from the disks-i386/current directory), and what to do with them. Go through it step-by-step, downloading what you need. You won't need to download more than 15 MB or so of files now, and that will be enough to either create bootdisks or use loadlin, start the Debian setup program, partition your hard drive, install the base filesystem, get ppp running, and use the dselect program to start downloading the packages you want. The installation process is pretty self- explanatory; it will guide you through setting up a PPP connection, setting up apt-get, selecting packages you want, and then downloading, installing, and configuring them. Once you see the huge size of the packages list, and start browsing through it, you'll probably be saying, wow, I'm glad I didn't waste my time downloading all this stuff! Most of it is stuff you'll never need; downloading it all is kinda pointless. That's what dselect is for; to allow you to easily select what you want to download. 5. Don't get frustrated! For me, figuring out which files I had to download to get a base system up & running was much harder than the installation itself! :) (well, except for rescuing my partition table from the brink of oblivion, that was kinda nerve-wracking) REMEMBER: install.txt is your friend! Read it, read it again, save it, print it out, pray to it for good luck, etc. Here's the addy of the file on one of the FTP sites: ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks- i386/current/install.txt And the directory containing the files that you'll need to download in order to boot into Linux for the first time: ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/slink/main/disks-i386/current/ 6. Good luck!
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
First of all, calm down. Debian is produced by volunteers, on their own time. It's not a company and no one is being paid. So if you aren't willing to work on the web site, at least be polite! On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, John Hall wrote: > Webmaster at Debian, > > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 > MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no > singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO > in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY > FILES one at a time!! You don't have to do that. :-) >From www.debian.org, click "Release Information" under "Getting Started" (you might need to scroll down a bit). From that page, click "Install Manual for Intel x86." Alternatively, on the left-hand side of the page, click "Download FTP." Scroll down a bit and click "Instructions for Installing Debian." Alternatively, on the left-hand index, click "Installation Instructions" then "Install Manual for Intel x86." If you prefer, you can purchase a CD with a nice book describing the install process from Linux Press; it's called the Debian User's Guide or something like that. A similar book will be out from MacMillan in the near future. You can also get CDs from various vendors; the web site may have links to them. There are also non-Debian options, such as Red Hat's box set, which comes with install manual and phone support. Havoc
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
Try reading the install documentation. It tells you all you need to know about installing the base system. From there, you download packages.gz files that have lists of packages and you select which ones you want. This is all taken care of in the installation process so all you need to do is install the base system, which as I said, you can learn how to do from reading the install txt. In the future, please try no to be so harsh when mailing to this list. You are obviously frustrated, but you can get more flies with honey than vinegar. Everyone on here is willing to help so all you have to do is ask. Rob On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, John Hall wrote: > > Webmaster at Debian, > > How in the world do I download Debian? I've been at your site for 30 > MINUTES and have gone to every distribution link on it, but there's no > singular link that actually downloads ALL 2250 files of Debian, and WHO > in the world is going to down load TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY > FILES one at a time!! Please, if you expect any users other than > 24-hour computer junkies to use your software, get your act together > and SHOW me a very obvious link that allows me, the USER, the Customer, > to easily down all 2250 files in one hit. As of this moment I don't > even know where to start, even though I've been at you site for 30 > minutes! If you haven't recieved hundreds of e-mails like this, I can > assure it's because the potential Debian/Linux user gets so fed up, > that they simply give up and stick with Windows because even Microsoft > knows how to deal with actual people. I don't want you to do everything > for me, but PLEASE make a SINGLE download, even a zip containing all > those files, so that I don't have to spend 5 hours trying to install > YOUR software! The public wants Linux and Open Software, but your > making it very hard to adjust, even for some one who is a hobbiest in > writing simple java and C++ apps. Thank you for reading. > > -Hopefully, a soon to be satisfied user > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null > === [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Role-Player, Babylon 5 fanatic 1998-99 Aka Khyron the Backstabber : ICQ# 2325055 Homepage: www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/ratirh "Happiness comes in short spurts. Don't be fooled." ===
