Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Ma, 29 ian 13, 14:35:35, "Morel Bérenger" wrote: > > About changelogs, since someone spoke about them (but it is OT from that > discussion, imho), using aptitude command to retrieve them is quite > useless, you usually only see changes in packaging, not in real software. At a minimum you should see a "New upstream release". It is also considered good practice to mention at least the highlights from the upstream changelog/news/whatever. > And there are no good evidence when an update is just a bugfix, a minor > release or a major one. > Except version numbers, of course, but this does not appear clearly to > users. Most users won't care. Those who do care will be able to at least get a hint from the usual major.minor or major.minor.bugfix versioning scheme. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
> 2. If you really, really what to prevent a package from being installed > you have to configure your system accordingly. For example create a file > /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-pulseaudio with following contents: > > Package: pulseaudio > Pin: version * > Pin-Priority: -1 > Explanation: prevent installation of pulseaudio > > > Kind regards, > Andrei Hey, that trick is interesting, thanks for sharing the idea... I did not thought about using preferences to black-list a package... I will not use it for my own usage, since I only check carefully which new packages are being installed by aptitude, but I'll keep it in mind, in case I have to manage/setup computer which are not mine, some day. About changelogs, since someone spoke about them (but it is OT from that discussion, imho), using aptitude command to retrieve them is quite useless, you usually only see changes in packaging, not in real software. And there are no good evidence when an update is just a bugfix, a minor release or a major one. Except version numbers, of course, but this does not appear clearly to users. (I wonder how hard it could be to hack aptitude to say it to change color of the line depending on which part of version number changed... maybe not so hard when softwares are using the classic versionning scheme?) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/629e70e8e876b1126629eef55ffed6d2.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 04:12:41 +0100, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 09:48:13PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: needed, since dependencies for stable are much to old, it easily could happen that Debian becomes buggier (and more buggy ;) than Ubuntu. You can bork any system if you really try. Correct! And I can't decide what's important and what's unimportant for the OP of this thread. But in general it depends to the usage and individual needs what distro will fit the best. On different lists, for different distros, I always read claims that the distro the list is for, should be the best of all. Such claims aren't a help. We don't eat soup with a fork. A spoon isn't a better or less good tool, it simply fits better when eating a soup. Updates for Debian aren't an issue for one usage and are a PITA for another usage. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrnlz9oyqhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 09:48:13PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > needed, since dependencies for stable are much to old, it easily could > happen that Debian becomes buggier (and more buggy ;) than Ubuntu. You can bork any system if you really try. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130129031241.GA29878@tal
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Mon, 2013-01-28 at 22:36 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Du, 27 ian 13, 13:39:29, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, > > if you update. > > You are of course aware that when you talk about "production" with > Debian this means stable. In this case "production" means to update from stable to testing, since stable couldn't be used for the productions I'm doing ;). That's what I wanted to point out. If somebody switches from Ubuntu to Debian, because of issues with Ubuntu, it's to be expected that the issues are solved, when using stable, but if there are special needs and an updated is needed, since dependencies for stable are much to old, it easily could happen that Debian becomes buggier (and more buggy ;) than Ubuntu. Especially if somebody has needs such as WiFi firmware, Cinelerra etc. pp.. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1359406093.2561.36.camel@q
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Du, 27 ian 13, 13:39:29, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, > if you update. You are of course aware that when you talk about "production" with Debian this means stable. > I used Debian because it was said, that I'm not > forced to use pulseaudio, that was correct, for two days, then I > updated and got pulseaudio as a hard dependency, without a warning, > there were no changelogs about this issue, that did break audio > completely. This wasn't the only issue ;). This sounds more like testing or unstable. Two hints for you (and the archives): 1. *always* check carefully what the update process is planing to do (even on stable) 2. If you really, really what to prevent a package from being installed you have to configure your system accordingly. For example create a file /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-pulseaudio with following contents: Package: pulseaudio Pin: version * Pin-Priority: -1 Explanation: prevent installation of pulseaudio Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
> -Original Message- > From: Martin Steigerwald [mailto:mar...@lichtvoll.de] > > So I suggest Wheezy to you as well. Spares you an upgrade (which is nothing > to be scared about in Debian, really, in case you need a help with an > upgrade or have an issue, just ask here, I never saw a Debian upgrade that > failed, never ever, and I have seen and done a lot of them). I recall an infamous "gotcha". Happened not very long ago, actually. It's the one where if you upgraded in dribs and drabs--- piecemeal---as tinkerers do, and you upgraded udev before/without doing a kernel upgrade, you were SOL, and couldn't boot. So yeah, read the change logs and release notes. I concur with everyone: Start out with Wheezy. Mark -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/002201cdfce8$52446a40$f6cd3ec0$@allums.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Hi Martin, On Sunday, January 27, 2013 08:57:39 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hi Mike! > > > 1) Use Wheezy. As I wrote it still has KDEPIM 1 as of KDE SC 4.4.11 which > means that it will have it during its complete lifetime according to the > Debian stable policy. I am writing from such a KDEPIM 1 :). In fact its the > only KDEPIM available officially as of today. > > > 2) I strongly recommend you to subscribe and follow debian-kde mailing > list. Its a low volume, high signal to noise ratio mailing list where > Debian kde users are subscribed to, also experienced ones!, as well as > Debian Qt/KDE maintainers and some KDE upstream developers. There has been > a discussion about KDEPIM 2 in KDE SC 4.10 recently for example. > > > 3) You can find some KDE SC install instructions on the website of the > Debian Qt/KDE maintainers: > > http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/ > > These give an overview over the packaging structure. > > > 4) If after a while you feel adventurous or want to try possible newer > versions, read: > > http://qt-kde.debian.net/ > > Currently there are KDE SC 4.9.5 base packages available there which work > quite nicely. Stay away from them for now tough, in case you use KDEPIM > with mutiple identifies with different sent folders as that is broken > currently. And really subscribe debian-kde mailing list if you intend to > use packages from there. > > > Hope this increases the signal to noise ratio in that thread again a bit. > > Ciao, Thanks for the tip. I'll try Wheezy in a VM first as I did with Squeeze. I seem to prefer the Debian way of doing things over Ubuntu anyway. For instance I always create a root account. Mike -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Ex Uno Plurima No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271401.07336.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:21:17 +0100, Chris Bannister > > wrote: > > Which is why there are so many derivatives. > > Debian is a good distro, but for some users it has got weak spots, that's > why other distros try to get rid of those drawbacks. No doubt about it, > those distros than will ship with other drawbacks. > > So a hint to the OP: > > Are you aware about the packages that are important for you? > Have you ever read changelogs? > Is it at all needed to do anything else, than security updates? My hint to the OP: Don´t let you be scared off that easily. I find it funny: There you go interested in Debian to a Debian mailing list and people tell you to be vary about it. Yes, Debian might be a bit more rough, or maybe more exactly raw at times, but then you tried it in a VM already. In case you do not rely heavily on installing software via software center (which is available as Debian package as well but I never checked its state) or some Muon based graphical KDE package installer and upgrader (Muon not yet packages for Debian) and can make friend with apt-get / aptitude, you can read a README.Debian here and there, follow debian-kde mailinglist, make your way onto a shell session, I see no major issues in case you try out Wheezy. Heck, we have users in debian-user-german who do not do all these things and they also get along. In case of trouble there are these mailing lists and helpful people on it. So please, do not let you be scared off. Debian is a friendly one, definately palatable IMHO for someone who made it do this list, tested it already and asked some informed questions. > FWIW, before updating what distro ever, it can't harm to backup the > stable environment. Ralf, the OP mentioned he does daily backups. But of course a backup is important. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271719.29001.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > I read your off-list mail. I didn't read your last mail to the list to > the end, because it's to long. You ask me to stop, I stopped. Yes, I > could name a developer, but it doesn't make sense, he's very kind. I > don't like to fight a battle with you. > > I only tried to make clear that there are differences, neither the one > nor the other distro is better or less good. Of course there are differences. That I didn´t find the comparisons useful was the exact point I made. A perception I made is that Debian developers tends to follow upstream quite closely: I.e. take it verbatim. A – I admit – dated comparison: I installed a Kubuntu for my father once. It had some KDE SC 3.x. I also installed a Debian Lenny I think at that time. It also had KDE SC 3.x. The Lenny install was not able to digest the KDE configuration files from the Kubuntu install nicely. Kubuntu had something patched into the control panel that wasn´t there in Debian. And then back then they already defaulted to Dolphin as standard file manager, even though at that time it wasn´t official part of core KDE packages! I disagreed with that choice, cause back then Dolphin was not yet as usable and polished as now. But some may have liked this. I dunno whether Kubuntu still adapts KDE quite much. But as a hint to Mike: With Debian you get a KDE SC thats – at least in my impression – is quite close to upstream and carries only little adaptions. That said, it may well include bugfixes and stuff not in the upstream function, but in my impression it is neither changed much regarding its appearance or features. So if you expect a somewhat "pimped" KDE SC, you might be better off with another distro. The biggest change right now I think is that Debian still carries KDEPIM 1 as of KDE SC 4.4.11. For me the Debian approach works well. May be due that I like the KDE SC stuff from upstream. :) > However, the OP perhaps will update and when his Debian than should be > borked others will claim, that the OP missed to read changelogs, that the > OP shouldn't have used this or that DE etc.. I'm just warning that it's > not that easy. Different distros, different drawbacks and advantages. I got the impression that Mike knows how to help himself :) I usually run my Debian systems with apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges :) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271707.38418.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:21:17 +0100, Chris Bannister wrote: Which is why there are so many derivatives. Debian is a good distro, but for some users it has got weak spots, that's why other distros try to get rid of those drawbacks. No doubt about it, those distros than will ship with other drawbacks. So a hint to the OP: Are you aware about the packages that are important for you? Have you ever read changelogs? Is it at all needed to do anything else, than security updates? Fortunately the switch between Ubuntu and Debian isn't a drastic step, as long as differences between upstart and init are unimportant. To funny, since FFmpeg was a thread on another list, but issues like this are the same for both distros. FWIW, before updating what distro ever, it can't harm to backup the stable environment. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrkt9w0eqhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 03:48:00PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Now I only want to mention, that making updates for Debian, is > different to making updates for e.g. Ubuntu and that there's a > difference between personal experiences and universal validity, that > some issues overlap, e.g. the Debian policy regarding to firmware > makes upgrades not easier. It is easy once you know how though, right? > However, the OP perhaps will update and when his Debian than should > be borked others will claim, that the OP missed to read changelogs, > that the OP shouldn't have used this or that DE etc.. I'm just > warning that it's not that easy. Different distros, different > drawbacks and advantages. Right, and Debian is good because it is flexible¹, and with flexibility comes complexity. INMHO, if you are not bothered to read the docs (which includes bug reports, changelogs, etc.) then Debian may not be the right choice. ¹ Which is why there are so many derivatives. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130127152117.GB30799@tal
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
I read your off-list mail. I didn't read your last mail to the list to the end, because it's to long. You ask me to stop, I stopped. Yes, I could name a developer, but it doesn't make sense, he's very kind. I don't like to fight a battle with you. I only tried to make clear that there are differences, neither the one nor the other distro is better or less good. When I e.g. mentioned upstart, then I wasn't thinking about how to start a daemon by CLI, but since the OP isn't aware about the differences, it's unimportant for the OP. Now I only want to mention, that making updates for Debian, is different to making updates for e.g. Ubuntu and that there's a difference between personal experiences and universal validity, that some issues overlap, e.g. the Debian policy regarding to firmware makes upgrades not easier. However, the OP perhaps will update and when his Debian than should be borked others will claim, that the OP missed to read changelogs, that the OP shouldn't have used this or that DE etc.. I'm just warning that it's not that easy. Different distros, different drawbacks and advantages. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrkreadcqhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: > What I cared about was the bold matter of factly statements that Debian > is less upgradeable than Ubuntu to someone who is in the switch from > Ubuntu to Debian. On which you above seemed to provided the first sign > of possible evidence. But then on one single case. I can easily tell two > cases where this has been the other way around: > > 1) OpenSUSE shoveled KDE 4.0 on their users while the upstream project > clearly noted: No, no, this is just a developer preview. First KDE SC > version in Debian: 4.2(.4 I think). I did not dig it out, but I think the first KDE SC 4 version in Ubuntu has been < 4.2 as well. Actually the KDE SC 4 transition in Debian has been smoother than I would have had with KDE SC 4.0. Heck, and the first KDE SC version for stable users was 4.4 even. So even due to longer release time between versions, due to sane (!) choices by some Debian developers updates may (!) be smoother than with the just package upstream from git daily approach. For any proof? Feel free to make a study with real users. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271533.05935.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:48:47 +0100, Martin Steigerwald > > wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:18:37 +0100, Martin Steigerwald […] > >> But you called Debian the mother of all. > >> > >> However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, if > >> you > >> update. I used Debian because it was said, that I'm not forced to use > >> pulseaudio, that was correct, for two days, then I updated and got > >> pulseaudio as a hard dependency, without a warning, there were no > >> changelogs about this issue, that did break audio completely. This > >> wasn't > >> the only issue ;). > > > > Ralf, just short, cause I do not think I am going to want to waste any > > more > > time on such a "which distro is best" discussion. > > > > martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | grep pulseaudio > > martin@merkaba:~#1> > > > > So what? > > > > First thing. > > > > It might be a hard dependency for you when using GNOME, but AFAIK that > > has > > been an *upstream* decision! > > That doesn't matter, Debian did break environments, when developers > claimed before, it will not become a hard dependency. Other distros This sentence lacks any proof whatsoever again. What developer exactly said what? (+ link of proof of course). > simply provide a gnome settings daemon without PA. So your claim simply > is wrong, that Debian handles updates better than any other distro do. Again: Actually I did *not* claim this. Again, what on earth is to difficult to crasp about: "From my perception Debian is the mother of upgradeability." *my perception* is *my perception* and thats about it. Different users can and will (!) have *different* perception. Kubuntu might be easier for some. And then fine. Arch might be easier for others. And heck Debian developers are human beings, like Kubuntu developers. And human beings make mistakes. In now way I ever said that this won´t be the case with Debian. Heck, I didn´t even compare with another distribution. I just reacted to the comparisons made in this thread. Why didn´t I compare? I even explained this: I *frankly* do not care. Debian works well for me. And that is *all* that matters for me. Got it? What I cared about was the bold matter of factly statements that Debian is less upgradeable than Ubuntu to someone who is in the switch from Ubuntu to Debian. On which you above seemed to provided the first sign of possible evidence. But then on *one* single case. I can easily tell two cases where this has been the other way around: 1) OpenSUSE shoveled KDE 4.0 on their users while the upstream project clearly noted: No, no, this is just a developer preview. First KDE SC version in Debian: 4.2(.4 I think). 2) All other distros, except for SLES and RHEL enterprise distros and thus Centos and Oracle Unbreakable Linux, jumped onto KDEPIM 2 quickly and boy did users complain about that. The software was *unfinished*, *incomplete*, and *buggy*. KDEPIM version in Debian still: KDEPIM as of KDE SC 4.4.11, while I tend to think that starting with KDE SC 4.9/4.10 KDEPIM 2 is getting somewhere where it may make sense to upgrade. So we can throw case against case. But for what? Distro package maintainers make different oppinions. Some suit some users better than others. Again: Without a study there will be no evidence what so ever. Willing to provide one? No? Then let us be done with it. I do not need a comparison. And heck, I bet Mike doesn´t require one either, as he is about to make up his mind *himself*. At least he didn´t ask for one. Thanks. As of my perception (!) of Debian as the mother of upgradeability to more notes. 1) Debian was upgradeable as Ubuntu didn´t even exist. And SUSE did not support upgrades. I am not sure whether Redhat did. 2) Ubuntus upgradeability is heavily based on dpkg/apt/aptitude which all originated on which distro again? Right, Debian. See? Heck, even recent zypper versions output is modelled almost verbatim after that apt-get / aptitude output. So it seemed Zypper developers had a close look at them and copied some of their good concepts. And they are perfectly entitled to! Maybe Zypper developers even surpassed apt/aptitude a bit at the moment. Its has gotten really fast. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271525.53779.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:48:47 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:18:37 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Sorry, hit send accidentally. > > Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald >> >> wrote: >> > Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want >> >> to >> >> > write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows >> > where to look. >> >> And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other >> distros, where you run release updates? > > I don´t use other distros. But you called Debian the mother of all. However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, if you update. I used Debian because it was said, that I'm not forced to use pulseaudio, that was correct, for two days, then I updated and got pulseaudio as a hard dependency, without a warning, there were no changelogs about this issue, that did break audio completely. This wasn't the only issue ;). Ralf, just short, cause I do not think I am going to want to waste any more time on such a "which distro is best" discussion. martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | grep pulseaudio martin@merkaba:~#1> So what? First thing. It might be a hard dependency for you when using GNOME, but AFAIK that has been an *upstream* decision! That doesn't matter, Debian did break environments, when developers claimed before, it will not become a hard dependency. Other distros simply provide a gnome settings daemon without PA. So your claim simply is wrong, that Debian handles updates better than any other distro do. It's not an issue for me, I know how to solve such issues, Debian is a good distro, but other distros aren't less good, especially for newbies it _might_ be saver to update other distros, since other distros include firmware by their distros, so there's no need to add third party repositories for those distros, especially rolling releases don't force you to install bad software that only is a hard dependency by upstream, but Debian does. I do not care about *might*. Here is has been stated boldly that Debian is *less* update friendly than Kubuntu. And all I want is: Either proof, or frankly said: Shut up. But for somebody else this seemingly is like that. And with no word I said that Kubuntu is less update friendly as Debian. Actually I did not say *anything* comparative. Even my SUSE statement where from the past and I know that zypper developers have done a marvellous job. Just because it works for your needs, btw. still with a bug, doesn't mean that there aren't other distros that are more user friendly and safer especially for newbies. Such discussions IMO shouldn't be about which policy, distro is the best, who has more or less knowledge, it should be about real experiences, with different environments. If people don't have experiences, they should make clear, that they have a special environment and experiences with this special environment, it does work and in this case can be updated without an issue. Such discussions are even off topic on this list. No, I disagree, this discussion is ok. The discussion about which language to use on this list is off topic ;). And the abasement that the off topic list should be a garbage can is bad and insulting me was bad, hopefully you missed this thread ;). But please, don't claim Debian is the mother of updates. It isn't! Oh, let me redig this: "From my perception Debian is the mother of upgradeability." This is *exactly* what I wrote. And the context of your mails where about what? And Ralf, frankly: I am perfectly entitled to *my* perception. Unlike others I did not state *my perception* as a *matter of fact*. Can we get over this now? No problem. I only answered one time to this thread, it had nothing to do with the update discussion and than I only wrote 2 mails about your claims. I didn't force you to write tons of mails ;). I don't have a problem with it, don't get me wrong. It's not OT IMO. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrkpbxh5qhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Hi Mike! Am Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2013 schrieb Mike McGinn: > I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop with 4G of RAM and have been a 'buntu > user since release 7.04. With each release of the new OS from Kubuntu I > have been less and less happy with the so called "quality" and I am > planning a move to Debian. As a Kontact user the problems reported with > the new versions of that particular package are dictating the move to > Squeeze. (I subscribe to both the kde-pim users and developers mail > lists.) > > I have been experimenting with an installation in a virtual machine and I > am getting ready to make the jump. I am happy with what I have > experienced in my VM and I just want to know if there are any pitfalls I > have not foreseen. My system is backed up every night, so I am not > worried about losing anything. As I am using KDE SC and KDEPIM on Debian Sid here some recommendations from me: 1) Use Wheezy. As I wrote it still has KDEPIM 1 as of KDE SC 4.4.11 which means that it will have it during its complete lifetime according to the Debian stable policy. I am writing from such a KDEPIM 1 :). In fact its the only KDEPIM available officially as of today. 2) I strongly recommend you to subscribe and follow debian-kde mailing list. Its a low volume, high signal to noise ratio mailing list where Debian kde users are subscribed to, also experienced ones!, as well as Debian Qt/KDE maintainers and some KDE upstream developers. There has been a discussion about KDEPIM 2 in KDE SC 4.10 recently for example. 3) You can find some KDE SC install instructions on the website of the Debian Qt/KDE maintainers: http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/ These give an overview over the packaging structure. 4) If after a while you feel adventurous or want to try possible newer versions, read: http://qt-kde.debian.net/ Currently there are KDE SC 4.9.5 base packages available there which work quite nicely. Stay away from them for now tough, in case you use KDEPIM with mutiple identifies with different sent folders as that is broken currently. And really subscribe debian-kde mailing list if you intend to use packages from there. Hope this increases the signal to noise ratio in that thread again a bit. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271457.40091.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:18:37 +0100, Martin Steigerwald > > wrote: > > Sorry, hit send accidentally. > > > > Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > >> On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald > >> > >> wrote: > >> > Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want > >> > >> to > >> > >> > write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows > >> > where to look. > >> > >> And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other > >> distros, where you run release updates? > > > > I don´t use other distros. > > But you called Debian the mother of all. > > However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, if you > update. I used Debian because it was said, that I'm not forced to use > pulseaudio, that was correct, for two days, then I updated and got > pulseaudio as a hard dependency, without a warning, there were no > changelogs about this issue, that did break audio completely. This wasn't > the only issue ;). Ralf, just short, cause I do not think I am going to want to waste any more time on such a "which distro is best" discussion. martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | grep pulseaudio martin@merkaba:~#1> So what? First thing. It might be a hard dependency for you when using GNOME, but AFAIK that has been an *upstream* decision! > It's not an issue for me, I know how to solve such issues, Debian is a > good distro, but other distros aren't less good, especially for newbies > it _might_ be saver to update other distros, since other distros include > firmware by their distros, so there's no need to add third party > repositories for those distros, especially rolling releases don't force > you to install bad software that only is a hard dependency by upstream, > but Debian does. I do not care about *might*. Here is has been stated boldly that Debian is *less* update friendly than Kubuntu. And all I want is: Either proof, or frankly said: Shut up. And with no word I said that Kubuntu is less update friendly as Debian. Actually I did not say *anything* comparative. Even my SUSE statement where from the past and I know that zypper developers have done a marvellous job. > Just because it works for your needs, btw. still with a bug, doesn't mean > that there aren't other distros that are more user friendly and safer > especially for newbies. > Such discussions IMO shouldn't be about which policy, distro is the best, > who has more or less knowledge, it should be about real experiences, with > different environments. If people don't have experiences, they should > make clear, that they have a special environment and experiences with > this special environment, it does work and in this case can be updated > without an issue. Such discussions are even off topic on this list. > But please, don't claim Debian is the mother of updates. It isn't! Oh, let me redig this: "From my perception Debian is the mother of upgradeability." This is *exactly* what I wrote. And Ralf, frankly: I am perfectly entitled to *my* perception. Unlike others I did not state *my perception* as a *matter of fact*. Can we get over this now? Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271448.47511.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:18:37 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Sorry, hit send accidentally. Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want to > write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows > where to look. And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other distros, where you run release updates? I don´t use other distros. But you called Debian the mother of all. However, Debian tends to completely break production environments, if you update. I used Debian because it was said, that I'm not forced to use pulseaudio, that was correct, for two days, then I updated and got pulseaudio as a hard dependency, without a warning, there were no changelogs about this issue, that did break audio completely. This wasn't the only issue ;). It's not an issue for me, I know how to solve such issues, Debian is a good distro, but other distros aren't less good, especially for newbies it _might_ be saver to update other distros, since other distros include firmware by their distros, so there's no need to add third party repositories for those distros, especially rolling releases don't force you to install bad software that only is a hard dependency by upstream, but Debian does. Just because it works for your needs, btw. still with a bug, doesn't mean that there aren't other distros that are more user friendly and safer especially for newbies. Such discussions IMO shouldn't be about which policy, distro is the best, who has more or less knowledge, it should be about real experiences, with different environments. If people don't have experiences, they should make clear, that they have a special environment and experiences with this special environment, it does work and in this case can be updated without an issue. But please, don't claim Debian is the mother of updates. It isn't! Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrklf3w3qhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: > Anyway, what use is comparing? I know that upgrades on Debian work > *nicely*. I use Debian. So what relevance on earth has it to me to know > whether upgrades work nicely on xyz? > > So if you want to put your time to make a cross-distro upgradeability > study feel free. > > I won´t. I have better things to do with my time. To make clear what I wanted to say: I asked Tom for evidence cause his bold statement looked like if he did such a study. If he didn´t, his statement is just a bold statement without much backing aside from anecdotal hearsay. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271322.05855.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Sorry, hit send accidentally. Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald > > wrote: > > Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want to > > write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows > > where to look. > > And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other > distros, where you run release updates? I don´t use other distros. Years ago, as I had a SUSE VM for some things I was able to upgrade, but it had issues I do not know you really want to hear. Once online repo format changed and the old tools couldn´t access it. Thus I downloaded rpm and zypper RPM packages *including* their dependencies manually and installed them by rpm -i. And that was just the tip of the iceberg and by way not the only issue. I think it got way better, but I never tried it. AFAIK cross major version distro upgraded are still not officially supported by SUSE. In the enterprise area I work in party with SLES as distro its still usual to *reinstall* from SLES 10 => 11 and so on. Anyway, what use is comparing? I know that upgrades on Debian work *nicely*. I *use* Debian. So what relevance on earth has it to me to know whether upgrades work nicely on xyz? So if you want to put your time to make a cross-distro upgradeability study feel free. I won´t. I have better things to do with my time. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271318.37819.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald > > wrote: > > Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want to > > write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows > > where to look. > > And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other > distros, where you run release updates? I don´t use other distros. Years ago, as I had a SUSE VM for some things I was able to upgrade, but it had issues I do not know you really want to hear. Once online repo format changed and the old tools couldn´t access it. Thus I downloaded rpm and zypper RPM packages *including* their dependencies manually and installed them by rpm -i. And that was just the tip of the iceberg and by way not the only issue. I think it got way better, but I never tried it. Anyway, what use is comparing? I know that upgrades on Debian work *nicely*. I *use* Debian. So what relevance on earth has it to me to know whether upgrades work nicely on xyz? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271316.42574.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 13:05:01 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want to write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows where to look. And compared to other distros, what bugs did appear for those other distros, where you run release updates? Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.wrkj3xotqhadp0@freebsd
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Freitag, 25. Januar 2013 schrieb Mike McGinn: > On Friday, January 25, 2013 08:11:48 Rob Owens wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:05:00AM -0500, Mike McGinn wrote: > > > I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop with 4G of RAM and have been a > > > 'buntu user since release 7.04. With each release of the new OS from > > > Kubuntu I have been less and less happy with the so called "quality" > > > and I am planning a move to Debian. As a Kontact user the problems > > > reported with the new versions of that particular package are > > > dictating the move to Squeeze. (I subscribe to both the kde-pim > > > users and developers mail lists.) > > > > > > I have been experimenting with an installation in a virtual machine > > > and I am getting ready to make the jump. I am happy with what I have > > > experienced in my VM and I just want to know if there are any > > > pitfalls I have not foreseen. My system is backed up every night, so > > > I am not worried about losing anything. > > > > Squeeze is fairly old at this point, and will be replaced shortly (a > > few months, maybe?) with Wheezy. Squeeze will still be supported for > > a year after that -- or have they committed to two years now? But my > > point is that you might want to consider Wheezy. Wheezy is currently > > the "testing" distribution, but will be released as "stable" as soon > > as it's ready. > > > > If you run into any hardware compatibility issues with the stable > > release, you can always look into getting a newer kernel from the > > backports repository: > > deb http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports/ squeeze-backports > > main […] > Hi Rob, > Thanks for the information on Wheezy. > > My main concern now with KDE is avoiding the mess that is going on with > the kde-pim, I have been using that for years and have a few gig of > email stored in it. Right now I want to use the older version. I did > some research last night (google) and found no incompatibilities with > my laptop. The new version of kde-pim has been a mess for some time now > and from the traffic on the developers and users list there is no end in > sight. I will move to Wheezy when it becomes stable and if it has a > usable kde-pim. > > I do have several servers at work that I am going to be moving from > Ubuntu server to Debian also. Mike, Wheezy still has KDEPIM 1 as of KDE SC 4.4.11. I am using Debian Sid here and typing this from this KDEPIM 1 installation that hosts a million of mails at least. In fact there are still no official KDEPIM 2 packages available for Debian at all. So I suggest Wheezy to you as well. Spares you an upgrade (which is nothing to be scared about in Debian, really, in case you need a help with an upgrade or have an issue, just ask here, I never saw a Debian upgrade that failed, never ever, and I have seen and done a lot of them). -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271309.30791.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Freitag, 25. Januar 2013 schrieb Tom H: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Andrei POPESCU > > wrote: > > On Jo, 24 ian 13, 10:34:08, Mark Allums wrote: > >> Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is > >> sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". > > > > I'm not familiar with Ubuntu, but Debian upgrades have always worked > > fine for me. > > Unless you're doing an LTS-to-LTS upgrade, an Ubuntu upgrade's more > likely to succeed than a Debian one because only six months'll have > passed between versions. Tom, can you back this by *evidence*? That said, I *never* ever had a *failed* Debian upgrade. Just upgraded my server VM from Squeeze to Wheezy. In about an hour. Only thing that broke was ContentNegotiation with Apache, still want to write a bug report about it, cause its easily fixable when one knows where to look. Reading release notes is a good idea of course. About config changes in software? This you will always have. Upgradeability is one of the main reasons I use Debian for. At work unless we want to have a clean start for a customer or an own machine we also only upgrade. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271305.01891.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Am Samstag, 26. Januar 2013 schrieb berenger.mo...@neutralite.org: > Le 26.01.2013 01:39, Mike McGinn a écrit : > > On Friday, January 25, 2013 19:13:45 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org > > > > wrote: > >> Le 24.01.2013 18:06, Mike McGinn a écrit : > >> > On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> >> -Original Message- > >> > >> and what about #service mysql restart? > >> I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, > >> unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? > > > > that is upstart. > > Maybe I should have said that I'm not a *buntu user :) > As everyone said, service supports sysvinit. As the comment say, it is: > > # A convenient wrapper for the /etc/init.d init scripts. > # > # This script is a modified version of the /sbin/service utility found > on > # Red Hat/Fedora systems (licensed GPLv2+). > > Enjoy that faster typing ;) Workds on systemd as well. So service seems to be a wrapper that always seems to work regardless of init system. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271300.24104.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Hi Mark, Am Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2013 schrieb Mark Allums: > The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. You > are pretty much on your own finding drivers for things. Debian supports > older hardware quite well, but there is usually a long wait for it. > > Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is > sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". Now I wonder in which parallel universe you live. From my perception Debian is the *mother* of upgradeability. The only occassion I ever re-installed a private box I remember is this 64-bit installation, since upgrading from 32- to 64-bit is indeed not officially supported :) Really, the Debian before started as Sarge on a T23. Its is a Wheezy/Sid mixture on this T23 and it is a Wheezy/Sid mixture on the T42. All upgraded. Also about drivers: It depends mostly on the kernel version. If Squeeze´s 2.6.32 gives problems, a 3.2 one from backports.debian.org may do. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301271258.55836.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Le 26.01.2013 01:39, Mike McGinn a écrit : On Friday, January 25, 2013 19:13:45 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 24.01.2013 18:06, Mike McGinn a écrit : > On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> -Original Message- and what about #service mysql restart? I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? that is upstart. Maybe I should have said that I'm not a *buntu user :) As everyone said, service supports sysvinit. As the comment say, it is: # A convenient wrapper for the /etc/init.d init scripts. # # This script is a modified version of the /sbin/service utility found on # Red Hat/Fedora systems (licensed GPLv2+). Enjoy that faster typing ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ecf83ea53ff2f0af10736360679f5...@neutralite.org
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Mike McGinn wrote: > On Friday, January 25, 2013 19:13:45 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: >> Le 24.01.2013 18:06, Mike McGinn a écrit : >> > On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> >> and what about #service mysql restart? >> I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, >> unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? > > that is upstart. No, a native upstart restart would be "restart mysql" but mysql still uses a sysvinit script on Ubuntu so it's restarted as on Debian with service, invoke-rc.d, or itself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SyaeR=iockvw9jd1ddbm6nuy1ob+5szpof-65kqai5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Friday 25 January 2013 17:20:18 Tom H wrote: >> >> Unless you're doing an LTS-to-LTS upgrade, an Ubuntu upgrade's more >> likely to succeed than a Debian one because only six months'll have >> passed between versions. > > Problems seem mostly only to occur when people haven't read the release notes. On Debian, often yes; mostly, maybe. :) One of Ubuntu's main upgrade problems is that they're generally done from within an Xsession that's managed by a DE, so the failure rate's higher than it ought to be. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=syxbwc8r3es-zfebqsknkfht3z7zoj0ixandsvuneo...@mail.gmail.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Vi, 25 ian 13, 19:39:50, Mike McGinn wrote: > > > > and what about #service mysql restart? > > I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, > > unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? > > that is upstart. sysvinit has it too $ dpkg -S bin/service pm-utils: /usr/lib/pm-utils/bin/service sysvinit-utils: /usr/sbin/service Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Friday, January 25, 2013 19:13:45 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: > Le 24.01.2013 18:06, Mike McGinn a écrit : > > On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> -Original Message- > > and what about #service mysql restart? > I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, > unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? that is upstart. -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Ex Uno Plurima No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301251939.50415.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Le 24.01.2013 18:06, Mike McGinn a écrit : On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: -Original Message- From: Mark Allums Sent: Thu 1/24/2013 17:34 > The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. Debian does not use http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ . Not an issue. I prefer typing: "/etc/init.d/mysql restart" as an example and what about #service mysql restart? I'm starting to think using directly the script is too slow to type, unlike services, which sounds to do exactly same thing? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bcd28b6be344b548b91586bd5b148...@neutralite.org
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Friday 25 January 2013 17:20:18 Tom H wrote: > Unless you're doing an LTS-to-LTS upgrade, an Ubuntu upgrade's more > likely to succeed than a Debian one because only six months'll have > passed between versions. Problems seem mostly only to occur when people haven't read the release notes. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301252231.25714.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Jo, 24 ian 13, 10:34:08, Mark Allums wrote: >> >> Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is >> sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". > > I'm not familiar with Ubuntu, but Debian upgrades have always worked > fine for me. Unless you're doing an LTS-to-LTS upgrade, an Ubuntu upgrade's more likely to succeed than a Debian one because only six months'll have passed between versions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sx7=Pm_gOO_JJMZgb7hbLevQQbqzvXZcYX2=nwsbbk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Friday, January 25, 2013 08:11:48 Rob Owens wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:05:00AM -0500, Mike McGinn wrote: > > I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop with 4G of RAM and have been a 'buntu > > user since release 7.04. With each release of the new OS from Kubuntu I > > have been less and less happy with the so called "quality" and I am > > planning a move to Debian. As a Kontact user the problems reported with > > the new versions of that particular package are dictating the move to > > Squeeze. (I subscribe to both the kde-pim users and developers mail > > lists.) > > > > I have been experimenting with an installation in a virtual machine and I > > am getting ready to make the jump. I am happy with what I have > > experienced in my VM and I just want to know if there are any pitfalls I > > have not foreseen. My system is backed up every night, so I am not > > worried about losing anything. > > Squeeze is fairly old at this point, and will be replaced shortly (a few > months, maybe?) with Wheezy. Squeeze will still be supported for a year > after that -- or have they committed to two years now? But my point is > that you might want to consider Wheezy. Wheezy is currently the > "testing" distribution, but will be released as "stable" as soon as it's > ready. > > If you run into any hardware compatibility issues with the stable > release, you can always look into getting a newer kernel from the > backports repository: > deb http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports/ squeeze-backports main > > -Rob Hi Rob, Thanks for the information on Wheezy. My main concern now with KDE is avoiding the mess that is going on with the kde-pim, I have been using that for years and have a few gig of email stored in it. Right now I want to use the older version. I did some research last night (google) and found no incompatibilities with my laptop. The new version of kde-pim has been a mess for some time now and from the traffic on the developers and users list there is no end in sight. I will move to Wheezy when it becomes stable and if it has a usable kde-pim. I do have several servers at work that I am going to be moving from Ubuntu server to Debian also. -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Ex Uno Plurima No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301250924.12054.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:05:00AM -0500, Mike McGinn wrote: > I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop with 4G of RAM and have been a 'buntu user > since release 7.04. With each release of the new OS from Kubuntu I have been > less and less happy with the so called "quality" and I am planning a move to > Debian. As a Kontact user the problems reported with the new versions of that > particular package are dictating the move to Squeeze. (I subscribe to both > the > kde-pim users and developers mail lists.) > > I have been experimenting with an installation in a virtual machine and I am > getting ready to make the jump. I am happy with what I have experienced in my > VM and I just want to know if there are any pitfalls I have not foreseen. My > system is backed up every night, so I am not worried about losing anything. > Squeeze is fairly old at this point, and will be replaced shortly (a few months, maybe?) with Wheezy. Squeeze will still be supported for a year after that -- or have they committed to two years now? But my point is that you might want to consider Wheezy. Wheezy is currently the "testing" distribution, but will be released as "stable" as soon as it's ready. If you run into any hardware compatibility issues with the stable release, you can always look into getting a newer kernel from the backports repository: deb http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports/ squeeze-backports main -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130125131148.gc26...@aurora.owens.net
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Jo, 24 ian 13, 10:34:08, Mark Allums wrote: > > Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is > sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". I'm not familiar with Ubuntu, but Debian upgrades have always worked fine for me. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:54:40 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > -Original Message- > From: Mark Allums > Sent: Thu 1/24/2013 17:34 > > > The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. > > Debian does not use http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ . Not an issue. I prefer typing: "/etc/init.d/mysql restart" as an example -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Ex Uno Plurima No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301241206.10235.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
RE: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
-Original Message- From: Mark Allums Sent: Thu 1/24/2013 17:34 > The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. Debian does not use http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ .
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:34:08 Mark Allums wrote: > The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. You are > pretty much on your own finding drivers for things. Debian supports older > hardware quite well, but there is usually a long wait for it. > > Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is > sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". > > If you run packages from Testing (starting, say 6 months after a release), > go all out in Testing . Mixing distributions leads to heartbreak. Ditto > Sid. IF you run things from Sid, you're better off running a full Sid > system rather than a mixed system with some packages from Testing and some > from Sid. > > The only things to get from Experimental are possibly the latest iceweasel, > or a new kernel. But wait on the latter until the kbuild package is > released, if you are going to need the kernel headers to compile hardware > drivers (the classic example being nvidia-glx kernel module). The headers > depend on linux-kbuild, and the kernel guys often don't get around to > packaging it right away. > > I'm sure there are people with better advice, Keep it coming, guys! Thanks Mark, that is some good info. The only proprietary driver I had to install was for the wireless, which I got from Dell. The laptop uses an Intel graphics chip (I forget which one), but there was a bug with the drivers in one 'buntu version (again I forget, might have been 10.04) which just about drove me nuts until it was fixed. I bought this laptop in early 2009,so it is by no means "new". Mike -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Ex Uno Plurima No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301241149.59733.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
RE: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
> From: Mike McGinn [mailto:mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net] > I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop with 4G of RAM and have been a 'buntu > user > since release 7.04. With each release of the new OS from Kubuntu I have > been > less and less happy with the so called "quality" and I am planning a move to > Debian. As a Kontact user the problems reported with the new versions of > that > particular package are dictating the move to Squeeze. (I subscribe to both > the > kde-pim users and developers mail lists.) > > I have been experimenting with an installation in a virtual machine and I am > getting ready to make the jump. I am happy with what I have experienced in > my > VM and I just want to know if there are any pitfalls I have not foreseen. My > system is backed up every night, so I am not worried about losing anything. The most noticeable difference to me has been the lack of drivers. You are pretty much on your own finding drivers for things. Debian supports older hardware quite well, but there is usually a long wait for it. Upgrades from release to release are more tricky than Ubuntu. It is sometimes easiest to just install the new version "clean". If you run packages from Testing (starting, say 6 months after a release), go all out in Testing . Mixing distributions leads to heartbreak. Ditto Sid. IF you run things from Sid, you're better off running a full Sid system rather than a mixed system with some packages from Testing and some from Sid. The only things to get from Experimental are possibly the latest iceweasel, or a new kernel. But wait on the latter until the kbuild package is released, if you are going to need the kernel headers to compile hardware drivers (the classic example being nvidia-glx kernel module). The headers depend on linux-kbuild, and the kernel guys often don't get around to packaging it right away. I'm sure there are people with better advice, Keep it coming, guys! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/005601cdfa50$a2862380$e7926a80$@allums.com
Re: moving from Kubuntu 10.4 to squeeze
Le Jeu 24 janvier 2013 16:05, Mike McGinn a écrit : > I am happy with what I have experienced > in my VM and I just want to know if there are any pitfalls I have not > foreseen. The only one I can see outside of system being configured differently by default is the hardware support. Using a live debian or a dual boot in first times to ensure everything is still working correctly sounds wise. Welcome to Debian :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/26d6cd333ada7ec65606f234c1b88b98.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
