Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Our icon style

[Mirek M.]

Hi Jay,

2014-11-18 19:24 GMT+01:00 Jay Philips :

> Hi Mirek,
>
> On 11/16/2014 03:46 AM, Mirek M. wrote:
> > 2014-11-16 0:24 GMT+01:00 Jay Philips  > <mailto:ypha...@gmail.com>>:
> >
> > Yes the gnome 2.20 style is alot better than the glossy gnome 3.0+
> style
> > at the 24x24 icon size. We are only using the older style for the
> text
> > based icons like bold, italics, underline, etc. It is still tango as
> its
> > using the gnome 2.20 style.
> >
> >
> > Could you point me to your source for the Gnome 2.2 icons?
> > From a quick Google search, it seems as if that version used the old
> > industrial icons, at least judging from e.g.
> > https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.2/ , and those are
> > definitely not Tango.
>
> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/gnome-icon-theme/2.20/
>
>
Those are the old Gnome icons, yes, but unlike the new ones we have, these
icons still employ lighting, though the material is a bit different from
the new ones. While the gradients and highlights are more subtle, the icons
are not flat.


> > Also, quoting the Tango guidelines: "Having homogenous lighting across
> > all icons also is important for visual consistency. Tango icons are lit
> > from above, with the light source slightly to the left. Icons with /on
> > the table/ perspective may cast a fuzzy shadow on the surface as if the
> > light source came from the position of the observer. "
> > If we have a flat icon set with no regard for lighting, then it
> > shouldn't be called Tango.
>
> Well if we need a gradient on the stroke to keep it inline with Tango,
> then we can apply a suitable one to keep it in line with the guidelines.
>

I was talking about the fill rather than the stroke.
Gradients aren't required, but correct lighting is, and that implies
gradients. Adding in any old gradient doesn't work though -- it should be
designed to look as if there was a light source lighting up the icons, as
described by the Tango Icon Theme Guidelines: "Having homogenous lighting
across all icons also is important for visual consistency. Tango icons are
lit from above, with the light source slightly to the left."

>
> > Yes it always best to stick with the guidelines but we shouldnt be
> > willing to bend the rules when there are suitable cases to do so. I'm
> > not an icon designer, so all i'm doing is patching up icons which are
> > already present. I'll let the designers decide what best works for
> you
> > guys, as i dont have the skill to comment on this.
> >
> >
> > The guidelines are there to maintain consistency, and icon size is a
> > pretty important point.
> >
> > Also, the new icons don't present one or two exceptions to the rule -- a
> > number of icons go over the margin. In this case, it's clearly better to
> > change the guidelines.
>
> Then i guess the guidelines should be to strive for 22x22 and worse case
> 23x23.
>

No -- we should stick to just 22x22 icons. Just pretend that the bounding
rectangle is 22x22 instead of 24x24.

From the guidelines:
"'Small' is the common size for application toolbar icons.

Its bitmap size is 22×22 pixels. This size is common for toolbars in KDE
and the GIMP.
Gnome has been using a size of 24×24px (which is ¼ of 48×48); just adding a
1 pixel empty space on all sides can make Tango icons useful on the Gnome
desktop."

Why do we have 24x24 rectangles, then?
The main reason was compatibility -- since both industrial and the old
tango set use 24x24 for lc icons, we're less likely to accidentally break
things if we choose the same icon size. And 24 is a nicer number to work
with (it's nicely divisible, works well with grids).

>
> > I didnt create the style, i took the gnome 3.12
> > format-indent-justify-text.svg file, made the stroke a solid color,
> > changed the gradient to be similar to the 2.20 gradient and reduced
> the
> > shadow transparency by half.
> >
> >
> > You're creating the style by implementing it.
> > Since we need a cohesive set and have more than one designer, there need
> > to be some guidelines for creating icons with this new style.
>
> Well i'll have you and Alex write up what is needed as i'm still a newb
> at icon designing. :D
>

Unfortunately, as I noted on the forum, I don't have time for this.
However, if you decide to stick with tango (meaning consistent lighting and
22x22 icons wih 1px margin), guidelines won't be necessary. (Some
guidelines may be useful, perhaps, but not necessary.)

>
> > My github username is philipzae

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Our icon style

[Mirek M.]

Hi Jay,

2014-11-15 20:52 GMT+01:00 Jay Philips :

> Hi Mirek and Alex,
>
> On 11/15/2014 07:31 PM, Alexander Wilms wrote:
> > Hi Mirek,
> >
> > I and Jay agreed that the icons look much clearer without the candy-ish
> > fill, especially the "T" and the omega. Currently, the icons bold,
> > italic and underlined in master use the Gnome 2.20 style, with a rather
> > flat gradient and highlights. Here's a SVG comparing the different
> > versions: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12598822/bold%20icon.svg
> >
> > I didn't attend the last two hangouts, so we didn't make a decision
> > regarding the text icon style, but I could attend next week.
>
> We discussed the icon style in last week's hangout and we decided to go
> with the style i've been using (i mentioned this in the redmine thread).
>

OK, that's fine, and I kind of like its flatness.
As I mentioned in my reply to Alex, though, there need to be guidelines for
this new style, and it shouldn't be called "tango" anymore.

> Regarding the icon size, is it really that bad if a few icons make use
> > of the 1 px margin? E.g. the text lines in the bullets and numbering
> > icons look too slim if one leaves the margin untouched.
>
> I normally only go over the margin width-wise when there is a major need
> for it, like in the case of the bullets and numbering icons. The only
> thing that i may let go over the margin height-wise is the shadow.
>

22x22 is the size recommended by the Tango guidelines. It's the default
size for KDE and 22x22 with a 1px border is the default for Gnome. I don't
think a size increase was necessary in the numbering icons and, in general,
if we're able to make a 16x16 icon, a 22x22 version shouldn't be a problem,
and it'd be good for icon consistency to stick to a size limit.

That said, I'm fine with going for 24x24 with this new style, but if we're
going to do that, this size either needs to be the new norm or there need
to be guidelines on when this size is acceptable. (I'd go with the former.)

Since you're the one behind the new style, could you please give a name to
this style and change and expand GUIDELINES.md? Guidelines regarding
lighting and shadows in particular would be very useful. (The lack of
lighting in the new style clashes a bit with the old shadows, IMHO.)

Looking at GitHub, you don't seem to be a member -- could you send me your
GitHub username (make an account if you don't have one) and, after you get
access, add yourself to the AUTHORS file?
Thanks.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Our icon style

[Mirek M.]

Hi Alex,

2014-11-15 16:31 GMT+01:00 Alexander Wilms :

> Hi Mirek,
>
> I and Jay agreed that the icons look mu ch clearer without the candy-ish
> fill, especially the "T" and the omega. Currently, the icons bold, italic
> and underlined in master use the Gnome 2.20 style, with a rather flat
> gradient and highlights. Here's a SVG comparing the different versions:
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12598822/bold%20icon.svg
>
> I didn't attend the last two hangouts, so we didn't make a decision
> regarding the text icon style, but I could attend next week.
>
> Regarding the icon size, is it really that bad if a few icons make use of
> the 1 px margin? E.g. the text lines in the bullets and numbering icons
> look too slim if one leaves the margin untouched.
>
> Since we want to get rid of tango-testing and remove it after rescuing all
> icons good enough for tango, I don't think it's a good idea to add another
> theme. Many Gnome apps now use the -symbolic set, so the inconsistency
> won't be that apparent.


The thing is, these changes, for better or worse, make this a different
theme with different rules. Rather than make half the icons flat with an
outline (as the new text icons are) and keep half the icons
Gnome/Tango-styled, I'd much rather if you could put together a coherent
set of new rules for the new icons, so that the new set is consistent.

As for keeping the Gnome-compatible set -- I'd like to keep it because it's
gotten pretty far, it was worked on a lot, it fits in better on desktops
that use the colorful Gnome icons (keep in mind some icon sets inherit from
it, like elementary), and it's more fit for reuse in apps that make use of
these Gnome icons. I get that maintaining it is not really an option right
now, so I'm thinking I'll create another repo with sources abandoned icon
sets, adding the sources from the LibreOffice repository as well.

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[libreoffice-design] Our icon style

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I just took a look at the changes at text.svg and I'm not thrilled about
the changes. The Tango style that was once there is now partially gone --
the whole set is inconsistent, with some flat elements and some elements
with gradients, many icons taking up 24x24 instead of the prescribed 22x22
with a 1px border on each side, etc. This is a set quite different from the
Gnome set we base on.

That said, I don't hate the new style, but I would like to maintain a
Gnome-compatible version as well, so I propose this: let's rename the
current set to "default" or "full-color" (or something else -- your choice)
and either leave the Gnome-based icon set called "tango" or name it
"gnome". Would that be okay?

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[libreoffice-design] Social networks

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
We have a few social network accounts that represent our team -- on
Twitter, Google Plus, and Diaspora.
They haven't been very active in general -- would someone here be willing
to run them?

If not (if nobody replies within two weeks), I'll get rid of them and leave
design-related communication to the LibreOffice channels.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

[Mirek M.]

2014-10-22 17:09 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice :

IMHO we should not leave it completely:
> Bugzilla is mainly used for UX but not for VI-marketing stuff (badges,
> logos, flyers etc.).
> We should discuss and announce on ml. We should cancel the Forum and the
> Wiki but not the ticketing in Redmine (especially not for VI).
> If we leave Redmine the Design proposals for VI will migrate to marketing
> place in Redmine or something else.
>

Moving this to Marketing on Redmine sounds good, actually.
The LibreOffice software-related VI stuff (icons, widget theming, etc.)
still belongs in Bugzilla and it's just confusing to have a section on
Redmine specifically for design+marketing stuff.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

[Mirek M.]

Perhaps we might want to reevaluate our use of Redmine altogether?

Forums are nice because they allow attachments, but it seems that no firm
decision has been reached with regards to letting go of the mailing list,
and it's clearly still being used (as evidenced by this thread, which is on
the ML only). A lot of community members had reservations about using
Redmine Forums -- perhaps there's a better way to deal with the attachment
problem, or perhaps it's not really a problem.

Issues aren't being used properly (some community uproar there, too) and,
with the wiki being cancelled, the idea of having a central place where we
do all our work is out of the question.

Unless TDF wants to start backing up the wiki in Redmine and unless we
start using Issues as a complement to Bugzilla rather than as an
alternative, it might be best to leave Redmine completely.

2014-10-16 14:46 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice :

> Am 16.10.2014 um 11:37 schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>
>>  + Kendy: Find somebody to transfer articles from redmine wiki to TDF
>>
>
> I started to work on it.
> But I think we should leave some content on redmine to describe what
> happen in redmine.
>
>
> --
> Grüße
> k-j
>
> Member of TheDocumentFoundation
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
> http://de.libreoffice.org
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] New Color Picker

[Mirek M.]

Hi,
I agree there are some problems, at least judging from the screenshots. If
you could report some bug reports, that'd be awesome! :)
BTW, the tentative design is here:
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/586 .

2014-09-30 19:06 GMT+02:00 Hillar Liiv :

> Hello!
>
> I saw a new color picker in
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/4.4 → New Color Selector.
> I think we need to improve it before it goes live. Does somebody have
> Krisztian Pinter e-mail or is somebody willing (able) to change it
> themselves?
>
> For first we need to give more consistent look for it:
> 1. same size tiles for recent and palette colors;
> 2. changing white background to dialog background color;
> 3. using icon for "color picker" etc.
>
> But overall it is great that somebody changed it.
>
> Our old proposals:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Picker
>
> Best regards,
> Hillar aka Medieval
> (I have not been very active lately, is design mailing list still alive?)
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improved Sifr icons / SVG sources

[Mirek M.]

Hi Kendy,
Sorry for being unresponsive lately -- I really didn't have time.

It's a plan to move the Sifr icons (which, right now, are all over the
place -- GitHub doesn't contain all the icons, apparently) to the same icon
sheets that Tango uses. I'll get on that as soon as I have time, or as soon
as someone takes the initiative.

I've looked at the script, but I think for now, given the time it takes and
the low number of icons we have, it's going to be easier to use Inkscape's
Batch Export functionality and move icons to folders manually (most of them
reside in cmd anyway). We can use the script once most icons are done.
(Sorry that I encouraged you to make the script so much -- if it proved
impossible to make a script, we would probably consider moving to the same
icon architecture Gnome has.) I can export the current Tango icons at twice
the resolution, and I think I can do that with Sifr as well -- will do so
soon, send you the result. (Remind me if I don't.)

The icons are on GitHub because designers tend to use Sparkleshare, which
would pollute freedesktop's log with meaningless commits.

2014-09-25 22:57 GMT+02:00 Jan Holesovsky :

> Hi Matthias,
>
> Papamatti píše v St 24. 09. 2014 v 22:37 +0200:
>
> > the sources of the svg data are at github:
> > https://github.com/libodesign/flat-icons
>
> Great :-)  Please is there a reason why they are on github, and not in
> the LibreOffice repository?
>
> > More infos at redmine:
> > https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/design/boards
>
> I'd be most interested in knowing how they are organized, and how it is
> possible to re-generate the .png's automatically.
>
> I've communicated recently with Mirek about that, and we came up with a
> way how to automatize that for
>
> https://github.com/libodesign/tango-testing/blob/master/text.svg
>
> Basically, to get eg. lc_color.png , you can do:
>
> cp text.svg blah.svg ; \
> inkscape -f blah.svg --select lc_color --verb=FitCanvasToSelection
> --verb=LayerDelete --verb=FileSave --verb=FileClose ; \
> inkscape blah.svg -w 48 -h 48 -e lc_color.png
>
> [so it is possible to a script that does that for all bitmaps in the
> text.svg]
>
> Does this work for the sifr icons too, or do they use a different
> organization than the tango-testing?
>
> [Why I am asking: I am interested in generating hi-dpi versions of the
> icons suitable for hi-dpi displays :-)]
>
> Thank you a lot,
> Kendy
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi JBF,

2014-09-04 14:24 GMT+02:00 Jean-Baptiste Faure :

> Le 04/09/2014 10:56, Mirek M. a écrit :
> [...]
>

> We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
> > want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
> > reply on the list.
>
> Hmm, looks like as if you wanted to keep discussions closed and private.
>
Ok, it will be easier to make decisions. Not sure that this way you can
> make decisions useful for LibreOffice and its users.
> What do you plan to make this forum discoverable ?
>

All the links on the LibreOffice website that link to the mailing list will
be changed to point to Redmine. Given that much of our workflow is moving
to Redmine, I don't think discovering it will be a problem.

Also, keep in mind that we're not the only team to use Redmine.


> > We're getting rid of the list.
> Not sure if design team is legitimate to decide that.
> What do you plan to keep the list archive?
>

Well, we have http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ .
I'm guessing that this archive doesn't depend on the existence of the
mailing list. If it does, we'll figure out a way to keep an archive --
worst-case scenario is keeping a dead mailing list, but I don't think that
will be necessary.

>
> [...]
>
> Instead of suggesting that I talk without knowing what I am talking
> about, you should try to answer to my arguments against the use of forums.
> Did you ever try a decent mail client? If you use a webmail, I can
> understand why you prefer the forums. But the problem is not the use of
> mailing-lists, it is how you manage your mails.
>

I tried multiple, actually, and still use Thunderbird for encrypted mails.
Always preferred GMail's interface, though, to be honest.

However, e-mail organization is not the issue with our current mailing
list. One of the main issues we have is the inability to upload attachments
(which are quite important for the design team). There are also many other
niceties that come with Redmine -- since much of our process is moving to
Redmine, a newcomer only has to create a single account and can follow the
team's activity in one central place. The fact that registration, posting,
and archives are all in one place is good for newcomers, as well as the
fact that they may follow forum threads and other things on Redmine
selectively.

Also, it's not just me that prefers Redmine (and I was initially skeptical
of it as well) -- the response to the move was positive on both the Redmine
thread we had and on our IRC chat, the consensus being to use it instead of
the list.

I have talked to Astron recently, though, and he echoed your concerns about
not seeing the author when watching list messages. It doesn't seem like
this will be fixed -- see http://www.redmine.org/issues/241 and the
attached patch. On the plus side, it seems like the fix (as described in
the patch) would be quite simple -- you could try to convince the Redmine
maintainers to apply it.

Also, it seems that it is possible to reply to forum posts via e-mail after
all. It doesn't seem like it's possible to create new threads by e-mail,
though.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi,

2014-09-04 9:53 GMT+02:00 Jean-Baptiste Faure :

> Hi,
>
> Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
> > Hi guys,
> > On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
> > working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
> > decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
> > conversations to Redmine.
>
> Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
> that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?
>

You can get forum activity sent to your e-mail: log into Redmine, click
"Watch" on the forums page, and make sure that, in your Account settings,
you have e-mail notifications for things you watch set.

We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
reply on the list.
We're getting rid of the list.

>
> Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?
>

No.

>
> Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
> on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
> not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.
>

Try forwarding the messages to your e-mail as I described above.

>
> Best regards.
> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
> communication tool.
>

You should try it. :)

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[libreoffice-design] IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
conversations to Redmine.

Redmine is easier to look through than our mailing list archives, it's
arguably less intimidating to newcomers, and it allows file attachments. It
doesn't seem to allow posting to the forum via e-mail (yet [2]), but it
does allow following forum conversations by "watching" it. To watch a
forum, select "Watch" on the forum page and make sure you have "Only for
things I watch or I'm involved in" as your "Email notifications" setting.

So, until the next IRC chat, please *don't post to this mailing list*, and,
if anyone does post, please refer them to the redmine forum:
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/design/boards . If you
haven't registered for Redmine, please do so, and, if you need help,
contact me personally or post in this thread.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-07-27
[2] http://www.redmine.org/issues/1616

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Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Our decision-making workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi KJ,
You keep arguing for Redmine, but is there something that it provides that
the combination of Bugzilla/wiki/mailing list doesn't?

If not, I'm afraid that, since we won't be getting rid of any of the three,
it will become yet another place to sign up at and track activity. I'd
prefer to keep the number of places to track to a minimum.

2014-07-09 13:43 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice :

Hi Mirek,
> Am 09.07.2014 00:42, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>> 2014-07-08 8:21 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice :
>>
>>> Am 08.07.2014 01:25, schrieb Mirek M.:
>>>
>>
>> I hate Bugzilla and I'd love to move to Redmine, but we can't separate
>> design bugs from other bugs -- users need to be able to report and search
>> for both UX bugs and other bugs from the same place.
>>
>
> Ok, I missed the point that you talk about design bugs, I thought you talk
> about the whole design process (as for me design bugs are only a part of
> our work).
>
> I think there is a possibility to do our work in Redmine:
> The bug itself is in Bugzilla and it should stay there. The key points are
> defined there. But the process to work on is in Redmine. We can link one to
> the other.
> Sometimes we need to describe the current process in Bugzilla but I don't
> think that it would be so often when the system works.
> And I think the devs are able to handle Redmine too, except they don't
> want to do. A question for the next UX-Meeting.
> For now we do something similar: bug in Bugzilla, Whiteboard in wiki,
> discussion on ml.
>
> We should try it. Maybe it doesn't work but maybe we get the right way to
> work on.
>
>
>  Or is it possible to synchronize Bugzilla bugs and the comments within
>> with
>> Redmine?
>>
>
> I don't know but I don't think so. But we are able to link from one to the
> other.
>
>
>  Or am I completely missing the point?
>>
>
> I only look at an other side of the bottle.
>
>
> --
> Grüße
> k-j
>
> Member of TheDocumentFoundation
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
> http://de.libreoffice.org
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Mirek M.]

I agree that a forum is probably more fitting for design discussions
(especially if it allows attachments), provides more privacy (your e-mail
address isn't pubilc), and I have to admit I would've been more comfortable
with a forum when I first joined the mailing list.

That said, we shouldn't spread out our internal conversations over too many
channels, so if we agree to go with a forum, we'd need to let go of our
mailing list. We'd also need the Document Foundation to host our forum.

Would everybody here agree to move to a forum if TDF agreed to host it? We
should discuss this on our IRC chat this week.


2014-07-20 10:04 GMT+02:00 Daniel Hulse :

> A forum might be a good idea, as it would reduce the number of barriers
> that
> keep people interested in designing for Libreoffice. KDE seems to be having
> a good deal of progress with their visual design group, and they use a
> forum
> ( https://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=285 ). Under this model, however,
> it
> might be necessary to have a community manager and moderators guide work
> and
> maintain the forum.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Revisiting-our-project-workflow-tp4114936p4116123.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Mirek M.]

2014-07-09 0:45 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :

> That makes sense Mirek. Thanks for clearing the reasoning behind the need
> for devs!
>
> However, I would suggest creating an area where designers could share
> designs and discussions between themselves under the LO umbrella and not
> spread around Deviantart or their user pages.
> Maybe a LO design forum where designers could discuss with each others and
> maybe even get some devs to take a peek at it?
>
>
Reda suggested to use GitHub, like Gnome does [1].
There was also an effort underway to create a web application exactly for
this purpose -- Glitter Gallery [2]. I'm not sure if it's in a usable
state, though.

So... GitHub for now?

[1] https://github.com/gnome-design-team/
[2] https://github.com/glittergallery/GlitterGallery


>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Mirek M.  wrote:
>
>> Hi Stuart, Pedro,
>>
>> 2014-07-08 14:18 GMT+02:00 V Stuart Foote :
>>
>> Mirek, *,
>>>
>>> Regards para 1): why would there need to be a developer already in
>>> agreement
>>> to start the process?  It would be nice if one, or more, were already on
>>> board, but much of the argument for implementation actually comes from
>>> fleshing out the details of what the enhancement should be.
>>>
>>> Admittedly  a developer's understanding of the structure of the program
>>> and
>>> cross platform implementation early in the process improves feasibility
>>> of
>>> implementation and can provide reasonable  bounds to the design. But,
>>> waiting for developers to appear and take an interest otherwise stifles
>>> design.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if there is a reasonable flow of good designs from the
>>> Design process that result in implementation then that flow becomes the
>>> norm.  More developers will "check-in" to see what needs to be worked on,
>>> and I'd expect that a fair number would actually make design
>>> contributions.
>>> As is now many do their own design work while implementing their code.
>>>
>>
>> That was my original thought too.
>> However, working without a dev hasn't worked out for us at all.
>> Let me give some examples:
>> * The design of the template dialog was dramatically different from the
>> proposed design because of a lack of designer/developer communication (and
>> I'm mostly to fault there). Things like drag-and-drop to create a folder,
>> design for a single-level hierarchy, a stack switcher-like widget,
>> single-click-based design, etc. were scrapped mostly because of technical
>> reasons and that resulted in design problems and a sub-par experience.
>> * There have been several attempts to design the color picker, but they
>> haven't been brought to a conclusion. The struggle there was that there was
>> no way of telling how it would be implemented -- would the current picker
>> evolve through a series of easy hacks? would it be written from scratch?
>> would LibreOffice support themes by the time it was worked on?
>> * The original Android Remote's coverflow-like slide view moved too
>> quickly. If the dev and the designer worked hand-in-hand, the physics of
>> the switching slides would be adjusted to a more comfortable speed.
>>
>> 2014-07-08 15:45 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :
>>
>>> Agree with Stuart, waiting for devs to start the process would severely
>>> limit the work. Why not have the designers brainstorm and come up with
>>> creative solutions even if no dev is present at the beginning.
>>>
>>
>> There's no restriction on brainstorming for designers, but whiteboards
>> aren't a place for those. Designers can post their ideas on their user
>> pages or on networks like DeviantArt.
>>
>> Whiteboards should be designed with implementation in mind, and that
>> requires dev cooperation.
>>
>> It would allow for more creativity and cooperation between designers and
>>> even if something fails to atract dev interest it will still result in
>>> the
>>> designers better knowing each other, cooperating and in the fostering of
>>> a
>>> creative atmosphere.
>>>
>>
>> There are a number of things that designers can work on that would have
>> dev support or that don't require dev support (e.g. working on icon sets,
>> reporting and bringing attention to design bugs, ...).
>>
>> There's still room for mockups and prototypes without dev backing, but
>> that should be left to user pages and DeviantArt.
>>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Finding a Purpose

[Mirek M.]

2014-07-03 14:38 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :

> I think that is a comendable effort but I think that it would be more
> effective to define what is the purpose of each module individually. What
> is it aimed at, so that UI design and dev work can be more focused in
> improving the work torwards that purpose for each module.
>

We should definitely define a purpose for each module as well.
Defining a purpose for the whole suite shouldn't take away from that.


> Then also define a priority of what modules need to be improved first to
> adjust to their defined purpose.
>
> The purpose definitions would be there to steer future design decisions.
Developers would continue to work on what they want/are paid to work on --
there will be no revolutionary redesigns. If a dev wants to redesign any
part of a module, the new design should reflect the chosen purpose.

>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Charles-H. Schulz <
> charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Mirek,
>>
>> On 3 juillet 2014 00:43:19 CEST, "Mirek M."  wrote:
>> >Hi everyone,
>> >Recently, we've been talking about our workflow and, as part of that,
>> >we
>> >came to the conclusion that we need to define a clear direction. The
>> >best
>> >way to do that, IMHO, is defining a clear purpose for LibreOffice and
>> >its
>> >components and continually striving to fulfill that purpose as well as
>> >possible.
>> >
>> >In our last IRC chat [1], Reda Lazri proposed "a 21st century suite
>> >that is
>> >easy for new users and powerful for existing ones".
>> >
>> >My original thought was that LibreOffice was too disparate to have a
>> >clear
>> >purpose and wanted to define purposes for individual modules only.
>> >However,
>> >since that time, I've come around to the idea of having a single
>> >purpose
>> >for LibreOffice, and here's a rough draft I propose: to let the user
>> >organize information and help them present it to others in a digestible
>> >manner.
>> >
>> >I should clarify that these are all just rough drafts, and that even
>> >when
>> >this team decides on a purpose, it won't be binding. The idea here is
>> >to
>> >not force a direction on devs and rather let the defined purposes stand
>> >based on their merit.
>> >
>> >I should also note that the goal derived from a purpose is basically to
>> >provide the best user experience for fulfilling that purpose -- that
>> >means
>> >things like ease of use, speed, great visual and interaction design,
>> >etc.
>> >are all a given.
>> >
>> >Post your thoughts on the purpose of LibreOffice in this thread and
>> >hopefully we'll come to a firm conclusion at the next IRC meeting [2].
>>
>> I must admit I am unsure why you need to define a purpose now, however we
>> did come up with pretty much your line 4 years ago albeit in a mpre elegant
>> way: "LibreOffice strives to be the engine of your creation and the tool of
>> your intelligence". Note however that a purpose is not the same as a
>> slogan. The latter changes often.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Charles.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-06-29
>> >[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
>> >
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>>
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>>
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>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Our decision-making workflow

[Mirek M.]

2014-07-08 8:21 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice :

> Hi Mirek,
> Am 08.07.2014 01:25, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  Hi guys,
>> One of the things we badly need is a good decision-making workflow. We've
>> discussed this on the last IRC chat [1] and that lead to my rough draft:
>>
>> 1) A problem is presented, either on the ux-advise mailing list or on the
>> design list. Feedback and possible solutions are collected on the relevant
>> Bugzilla page or, if a Bugzilla page doesn't make sense for the problem,
>> on
>> the design mailing list.
>>
>
> The TDF has a big tool which we can use for our design project workflow:
> Redmine [1]. The infrastructure team uses it for their work.
> There we have the possibility to shedule, ticketing, give prioritiy, and
> it has a better structure for the workers than bugzilla: Everybody can see
> the process. To find something in bugzilla is very difficult for someone
> outside.
> If you think it could be the right tool I will ask Florian, to give the
> "Design" project a try.


> https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects
>

I hate Bugzilla and I'd love to move to Redmine, but we can't separate
design bugs from other bugs -- users need to be able to report and search
for both UX bugs and other bugs from the same place.

Or is it possible to synchronize Bugzilla bugs and the comments within with
Redmine? Or am I completely missing the point?

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi Stuart, Pedro,

2014-07-08 14:18 GMT+02:00 V Stuart Foote :

> Mirek, *,
>
> Regards para 1): why would there need to be a developer already in
> agreement
> to start the process?  It would be nice if one, or more, were already on
> board, but much of the argument for implementation actually comes from
> fleshing out the details of what the enhancement should be.
>
> Admittedly  a developer's understanding of the structure of the program and
> cross platform implementation early in the process improves feasibility of
> implementation and can provide reasonable  bounds to the design. But,
> waiting for developers to appear and take an interest otherwise stifles
> design.
>
> On the other hand, if there is a reasonable flow of good designs from the
> Design process that result in implementation then that flow becomes the
> norm.  More developers will "check-in" to see what needs to be worked on,
> and I'd expect that a fair number would actually make design contributions.
> As is now many do their own design work while implementing their code.
>

That was my original thought too.
However, working without a dev hasn't worked out for us at all.
Let me give some examples:
* The design of the template dialog was dramatically different from the
proposed design because of a lack of designer/developer communication (and
I'm mostly to fault there). Things like drag-and-drop to create a folder,
design for a single-level hierarchy, a stack switcher-like widget,
single-click-based design, etc. were scrapped mostly because of technical
reasons and that resulted in design problems and a sub-par experience.
* There have been several attempts to design the color picker, but they
haven't been brought to a conclusion. The struggle there was that there was
no way of telling how it would be implemented -- would the current picker
evolve through a series of easy hacks? would it be written from scratch?
would LibreOffice support themes by the time it was worked on?
* The original Android Remote's coverflow-like slide view moved too
quickly. If the dev and the designer worked hand-in-hand, the physics of
the switching slides would be adjusted to a more comfortable speed.

2014-07-08 15:45 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :
>
> Agree with Stuart, waiting for devs to start the process would severely
> limit the work. Why not have the designers brainstorm and come up with
> creative solutions even if no dev is present at the beginning.
>

There's no restriction on brainstorming for designers, but whiteboards
aren't a place for those. Designers can post their ideas on their user
pages or on networks like DeviantArt.

Whiteboards should be designed with implementation in mind, and that
requires dev cooperation.

It would allow for more creativity and cooperation between designers and
> even if something fails to atract dev interest it will still result in the
> designers better knowing each other, cooperating and in the fostering of a
> creative atmosphere.
>

There are a number of things that designers can work on that would have dev
support or that don't require dev support (e.g. working on icon sets,
reporting and bringing attention to design bugs, ...).

There's still room for mockups and prototypes without dev backing, but that
should be left to user pages and DeviantArt.

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[libreoffice-design] Revisiting our project workflow

[Mirek M.]

Another topic we've touched on at the last IRC chat [1] is our project
workflow. We've decided that it'd be better if each project had a lead
designer, who would take it up to the tentative design phase in cooperation
with the dev who would later work on the project's implementation. The
process would go as follows:
1) A designer and a dev agree to work on a project and make a whiteboard
[2] for it, where everything relevant to the project is published or linked
to. (If a dev wants to work on a project, he contacts the design ML and
hopefully an interested designer shows up. I'm not sure what the best place
for designers to find devs is -- we can discuss that here.)
2) The designer and the dev research what they'll be working on, adding all
useful resources to a "Resources" section on the whiteboard.
3) The designer and the dev formulate a goal and specify the scope of the
project with the help of the design team experts [3]. They also create a
tentative schedule and/or roadmap if possible.
4) The designer writes about the project on the design mailing list,
opening it up to feedback and optionally asking for help.
5) The designer takes the project up to tentative design level, making
sketches, documenting his reasoning, tweaking details and whatever else is
needed along the way. The designer communicates with the dev behind the
project and the design team experts while working on the project.
6) Once the tentative design is done, the designer should again send a
message to the design mailing list and ask for feedback.

Then comes the more broadly applicable decision-making workflow, which I
wrote about in the thread "Our decision-making workflow" [4].

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-06-29
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
[4]
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Our-decision-making-workflow-td4114935.html

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[libreoffice-design] Our decision-making workflow

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
One of the things we badly need is a good decision-making workflow. We've
discussed this on the last IRC chat [1] and that lead to my rough draft:

1) A problem is presented, either on the ux-advise mailing list or on the
design list. Feedback and possible solutions are collected on the relevant
Bugzilla page or, if a Bugzilla page doesn't make sense for the problem, on
the design mailing list.
2) The topic is discussed at the following IRC chat [4]. Proposals that
don't adhere to our guidelines and principles or are infeasible are
discarded.
3) If all attendees as well as all the design team experts (contacted
separately if not present) unanimously agree on a certain proposal, it is
chosen as the solution.
4) If they don't, the user testing expert conducts a test of the possible
solutions.
5) If a test is inconclusive, proves inaccurate, or can't be held, the
proposed solutions are voted on. "None of the proposed solutions are
satisfactory" is always an option. The vote is announced at least on the
design mailing list.
6) The whole process is repeated until a satisfactory solution is found.

Let's test this workflow by applying it here. Please give feedback and/or
propose a different workflow in this thread.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-06-29
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

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[libreoffice-design] Finding a Purpose

[Mirek M.]

Hi everyone,
Recently, we've been talking about our workflow and, as part of that, we
came to the conclusion that we need to define a clear direction. The best
way to do that, IMHO, is defining a clear purpose for LibreOffice and its
components and continually striving to fulfill that purpose as well as
possible.

In our last IRC chat [1], Reda Lazri proposed "a 21st century suite that is
easy for new users and powerful for existing ones".

My original thought was that LibreOffice was too disparate to have a clear
purpose and wanted to define purposes for individual modules only. However,
since that time, I've come around to the idea of having a single purpose
for LibreOffice, and here's a rough draft I propose: to let the user
organize information and help them present it to others in a digestible
manner.

I should clarify that these are all just rough drafts, and that even when
this team decides on a purpose, it won't be binding. The idea here is to
not force a direction on devs and rather let the defined purposes stand
based on their merit.

I should also note that the goal derived from a purpose is basically to
provide the best user experience for fulfilling that purpose -- that means
things like ease of use, speed, great visual and interaction design, etc.
are all a given.

Post your thoughts on the purpose of LibreOffice in this thread and
hopefully we'll come to a firm conclusion at the next IRC meeting [2].

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-06-29
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Team organization

[Mirek M.]

Hi Sophie,


2014-06-19 15:15 GMT+02:00 Sophie :

> Hi Mirek,
> Le 19/06/2014 14:48, Mirek M. a écrit :
> > Hi guys,
> > Sorry for my lack of involvement lately, I've been very busy.
> >
> > I've been thinking about our team lately and I'd really like to rethink
> the
> > way we work. I feel like we don't have the basics down, and that's a
> > gigantic issue that also reflects on our work. Part of the problem is
> that
> > the team doesn't have a clear structure -- we need leads to resolve
> > controversies and bring consistency to the whole of LibreOffice. As
> Theodor
> > Nelson writes (and Jan Borchardt reiterates [1]), "The integration of
> > software cannot be achieved by committee, where everyone has to put in
> > their own additions (featuritis again). It must be controlled by
> > dictatorial artists with full say on the final cut. " Not only that --
> > having leads means having clear go-to people for design-related problems
> > and allows more effective communication -- the communication chaos that
> we
> > currently have would be reduced.
> >
> > I'm thinking we could have these positions:
> > * UX lead
> > * Visual design lead
> > * User testing lead
> >
> > The *user testing lead* would see to it that whatever needs to be tested
> > gets tested and that the tests are carried out well. The lead wouldn't
> have
> > to personally take part in tests -- as we have volunteers all over the
> > world, that would sometimes be impossible -- but they would have to make
> > sure that the tests get done and are sufficiently accurate to be useful.
> > The *visual design lead* would oversee all visual design related work.
> That
> > means making sure that all graphical elements that are needed get made
> and
> > follow a certain style. It also means creating visual design and branding
> > guidelines and style guides when they're needed.
> > The *UX lead* would care for the general UX of LibreOffice. That means
> > bringing attention to important UX bugs, watching over their progress,
> and
> > cooperating with the user testing lead, the visual design lead, and
> > developers based on what each bug requires. It also involves refining the
> > design process, from the bug report stage all the way to implementation.
> >
> > It should be noted that these positions would pertain only to the
> software,
> > not to related projects such as the websites, social networks, branding
> > material, etc., to keep the workload lighter. However, rules and
> guidelines
> > for the software would apply to these projects when relevant. To further
> > lighten the workload, larger projects (e.g. Android remote, color
> > management, etc.) could have their own lead as well. The project lead
> would
> > report to the three leads listed above.
> >
> > Having these three positions would change only the way we work within the
> > design team. The relationship of the team with other teams would not
> change
> > -- devs would still get the final say and leads would have no special
> roles
> > or privileges within TDF.
>
> Sorry to jump in with a side question about the other aspects out of the
> product. How can we reach your team when we need visual or design
> specifics for events or any action organized by the other projects. Are
> you too short in volunteers and we need to help you grow this part of
> the community or is it something you're not invested in?
>

Yes, I would say we're short on volunteers, and those volunteers tend to be
short on time.

Motivation might be a factor -- I think the organizational chaos that there
is now can be discouraging and I'd like to try to fix that.


> Would it be better for your team that we have two separate projects: one
> dedicated to the product design, the other one to the designs needed  by
> the community projects?
>

I'm not sure. I guess ideally leads would cater to all TDF-related projects
and would act as managers.
Right now, though, I'm afraid a lot of the design work will fall on the
leads themselves, or just not get done.

Perhaps that's not relevant, though? Should we just have leads take care of
all the projects and be responsible for finding the necessary volunteers?

Actually, and please don't take it as a criticism, it seems very
> difficult to get some designs done for events or items and I really
> would like to help to solve this :)
>

Yes, I know, sorry; though huge props to KJ, who tends to save the day.

Please chime in with any organizational ideas you might have.

>
> Cheers
> Sophie
>

[libreoffice-design] Team organization

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Sorry for my lack of involvement lately, I've been very busy.

I've been thinking about our team lately and I'd really like to rethink the
way we work. I feel like we don't have the basics down, and that's a
gigantic issue that also reflects on our work. Part of the problem is that
the team doesn't have a clear structure -- we need leads to resolve
controversies and bring consistency to the whole of LibreOffice. As Theodor
Nelson writes (and Jan Borchardt reiterates [1]), "The integration of
software cannot be achieved by committee, where everyone has to put in
their own additions (featuritis again). It must be controlled by
dictatorial artists with full say on the final cut. " Not only that --
having leads means having clear go-to people for design-related problems
and allows more effective communication -- the communication chaos that we
currently have would be reduced.

I'm thinking we could have these positions:
* UX lead
* Visual design lead
* User testing lead

The *user testing lead* would see to it that whatever needs to be tested
gets tested and that the tests are carried out well. The lead wouldn't have
to personally take part in tests -- as we have volunteers all over the
world, that would sometimes be impossible -- but they would have to make
sure that the tests get done and are sufficiently accurate to be useful.
The *visual design lead* would oversee all visual design related work. That
means making sure that all graphical elements that are needed get made and
follow a certain style. It also means creating visual design and branding
guidelines and style guides when they're needed.
The *UX lead* would care for the general UX of LibreOffice. That means
bringing attention to important UX bugs, watching over their progress, and
cooperating with the user testing lead, the visual design lead, and
developers based on what each bug requires. It also involves refining the
design process, from the bug report stage all the way to implementation.

It should be noted that these positions would pertain only to the software,
not to related projects such as the websites, social networks, branding
material, etc., to keep the workload lighter. However, rules and guidelines
for the software would apply to these projects when relevant. To further
lighten the workload, larger projects (e.g. Android remote, color
management, etc.) could have their own lead as well. The project lead would
report to the three leads listed above.

Having these three positions would change only the way we work within the
design team. The relationship of the team with other teams would not change
-- devs would still get the final say and leads would have no special roles
or privileges within TDF.

Anyway, chime in with your thoughts -- in order to work well, we really
need to get the core structure down.

Also, if you'd like to be a lead, please speak up. We have a shortage of
volunteers, so anyone interested is greatly appreciated.

[1] http://jancborchardt.net/usability-in-free-software

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Light Blue for Non-printing characters

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
To those pushing for a certain color -- could you please suggest that ONE
color on this list before tomorrow?
As iterated above, it shouldn't be gray or in the LibO color palette for
best possible contrast.

I'll ask our Google+ community to test the few suggested colors and pick
out the most appropriate one. The test will be on
http://jsfiddle.net/mirek2/4D36a/ . Participants will be asked to vote for
ALL colors that they can comfortably work with, not just for one that they
find appealing. Only those who have chosen to display non-printing
characters in the past will be asked to participate.
Also, if you know of any tried-and-tested FLOSS color schemes, bring them
to my attention. (Solarized [1], for example.)

It would also be great if non-printing characters could appear in a thicker
font weight -- compare iWork's interpunct with LibreOffice's:
https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/2-21268196-218167/Screen+Shot+2013-02-18+at+1.01.12+AM.png
, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/2/23/NPC.png . Not sure how
easy that would be to do.

[1] http://ethanschoonover.com/solarized



2014-06-15 18:54 GMT+02:00 William Gathoye :

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 06/15/2014 05:56 PM, Pedro wrote:
>
> > Reported here https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80054
> Thansk I'll ask official devs to flag it as easy hack.
>
> >
> > I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Devs actually do read your
> > Newsletter ;) Nice work!
> They will ;-)
>
> >
> > BTW is it "LibreOffice Weekly News" or "LibreOffice Dev Weekly"
> > (as mentioned on the first line of the second paragraph)?
> Fixed. (same link)
>
> Regards,
>
> - --
> William Gathoye
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2
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> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Light Blue for Non-printing characters

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
So, here's the situation:

This feature was coded as part of the UX Hackfest that took place after
FOSDEM. The dev behind it hard-coded it, thinking that if he had time, he
would tweak it so that the color would change based on what background it's
on. He didn't have time, so the color remains hard-coded. I'm doubtful that
we'll find a dev to implement any sort of smart color mechanism, but it's
likely we'll find one to change the hard-coded color.

Milan is right in that the default should work out of the box for as many
as possible. The right thing to do would be to test various colors, on
various monitors, and on people with varying vision levels. I've contacted
Björn Balazs about it, he said that he'll ponder whether he'll work on
that, though he definitely won't have time until at least next week. If any
of you would like to orchestrate a wide-spread test, that would be
extremely useful. As a start, here's a JSFiddle to play with:
http://jsfiddle.net/mirek2/4D36a/ . Just change the color in the top right
panel to whichever one you propose and click "Run". It might be good to
gather up a few basic hues and then test variants of different brightness
and saturation.

As for the color itself, it should:
* Recede into the background
* Be clearly visible on a white background
* Be distinct from the document content (e.g. please don't use colors from
the LibO color palette)

It might be noteworthy that both iWork and some versions of Office (not
sure if Mac or Windows ones, or both) use blue for invisibles.
BTW, since someone asked before, the reason why gray isn't being used is
because it's very likely that the document contains gray content.

Also, if you find a willing dev, it wouldn't hurt to add this under
Appearance. (This whole section is "advanced", so no worries about
cluttering up Options here. The section will hopefully be moved to "Expert
Configuration" once that becomes usable enough.) However, adding an option
wouldn't fix the issue at hand -- a great default is a must.


2014-06-04 21:25 GMT+02:00 Laurent Lyaudet :

> Hi Stefan, all,
>
>
>  Ultimately, this will always be the implementer's decision. Not anyone's
>> in this team.
>>
> So the design team should not take any decision ?
> In this respect, whether our decision is based on reasoning or random
> thoughts makes no difference.
> I prefer to think that the implementer has some sanity and will take into
> accounts our decisions.
>
>
>  Additionally,
>> 1) There is no chance get the majority of [people/users of LibreOffice/
>> ..?] to express an opinion on this matter.
>>
> The same "no chance" argument apply to all ideals.
> That's not a reason to stop doing any effort in direction of these ideals.
> Ultimately, I prefer to try and fail than accepting different forms of
> mediocrity.
>
>  2) Do we actually need everyone's opinion? Or would it make more sense
>> to find arguments one way or another?
>>
> These two goals aren't contradictory. The goal of my previous mail was to
> explain that both are needed.
> We need arguments but in the end there is most of the time no unique
> logical conclusion,
> and that's why we end a democratic debate by a vote in order to have the
> more representative opinions we can get.
> (Maybe we don't need everyone's opinion but we should try to have more
> representative opinions.)
>
>  Solving this is best done via Bugzilla with arguments, not via a poll
>> that will only give skewed, reason-free output anyway.
>>
> I don't think Bugzilla is the best place for this because :
> - you already provide a privileged solution when you open the bug report;
> - it can be done by the devs before a decision has been reached.
> We need to centralize the arguments in some place : the archive of the
> design mailing list does that when you look at a discussion.
> We can also put them in the wiki if you prefer.
> Clearly bugzilla without the design team knowing it's here is not the best
> place.
>
> I don't see why a poll "will only give skewed, reason-free output anyway. "
> Can you prove it ?
> Do you mean people who vote have no reasoning abilities ?
>
>  When it comes to design I see a lot of contradicting arguments and most
>>> of the time you end up adding "apples" with "oranges" and so on.
>>>
>> Reasoning on design matters is not (yet?) as clear cut as in
>> mathematics, true. Still, it should be more than people expressing
>> random whims.
>>
> "Yet ?" ? You don't believe in polls but you do believe some day reasoning
> on design matters will be clear cut.
> Design matters try to satisfy the needs of the people.
> If one day we fully understand people needs and how to adapt to these
> needs, I hope we should be able to have efficient polls.
>
>  Second aim "usable to as many people as possible" : I don't see why
>>> having the choice between colors makes it "not usable".
>>>
>> Setting a colour that is too light makes LibreOffice less usable to a
>> large class of users. That is what I meant h

[libreoffice-design] IRC chat this Sunday

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
IRC chats are now monthly, taking place on the last Sunday of every month,
and this Sunday (May 25) happens to be the last Sunday in May.

After two months of silence, we are finally having another chat, so be sure
to come. 12:00 UTC as usual -- more information at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .

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[libreoffice-design] Re: IRC chats

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
You'll probably hate me for this -- I can't make the chat this Sunday, as
I'll be away and without Internet this weekend.

Is there someone on this mailing list who would like to have the job of
organizing these monthly chats?
It's a really simple job of announcing it in advance on this mailing list
[1], being there for the chat, and trying to keep the chat focused on one
topic at a time.
More info about the chats is at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .

Given that I'm leaving in an hour and won't be able to reply, if anyone
here is up for the job, please organize this Sunday's chat.

[1] Something like
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06457.html will
suffice.


2014-04-12 14:13 GMT+02:00 Mirek M. :

> Hi guys,
> I'm sorry that I haven't been active lately -- I'm generally short on time
> now.
>
> Since I'm generally short on time and since the IRC chat tends to have
> very few attendees (if any), I propose to make the chat monthly, taking
> place on the last Sunday of every month.
> (I deliberately propose the last Sunday, as I'm not free on the first
> Sunday.)
>
> Please reply with your thoughts on this. If nobody raises any arguments
> against it by next Friday, I'll make it official.
>

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chats

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I'm sorry that I haven't been active lately -- I'm generally short on time
now.

Since I'm generally short on time and since the IRC chat tends to have very
few attendees (if any), I propose to make the chat monthly, taking place on
the last Sunday of every month.
(I deliberately propose the last Sunday, as I'm not free on the first
Sunday.)

Please reply with your thoughts on this. If nobody raises any arguments
against it by next Friday, I'll make it official.

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[libreoffice-design] Document examples

[Mirek M.]

Hi everyone,
If you've ever used LibreOffice to produce something that looks good, it'd
be great if you could submit it so that we could use it in screenshots.

And if you haven't, it'd be awesome if you could make something now. :)

Post your submissions anywhere -- you're welcome to use the TDF wiki, but
you can also use Google Drive, Dropbox, and the like. Make sure that all of
the content submitted is yours, or at least in the public domain or
provided under the CC0, CC-by, or CC-by-sa license.
If you want to use high-res photos, use ones from http://unsplash.com/.

Here are the screenshots we have now:
https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/screenshots/
Here's what we should strive for: https://www.apple.com/mac/pages/,
https://www.apple.com/mac/numbers/,
http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Presentation-Concept-Slide-Editor-287066035(look
at just presentation templates).

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat

[Mirek M.]

We're having an IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .

Everyone's welcome, even passive watchers.

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat -- no time

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I'm really, really sorry that I have to skip the IRC meeting again -- I'm
absolutely swamped.
I hope you can chat without me.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Tasks for UX testing?

[Mirek M.]

Just a small note: It'd be great if you could test LibreOffice with its new
icons (https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/8192/).

2014-03-03 8:11 GMT+01:00 Robinson Tryon :

> [I don't think I'm subscribed to design@, so please Reply-All]
>
> Hi,
> We've been invited to participate in some user testing at a new event
> "SpinachCon"[1] that will take place a day before LibrePlanet[2] this
> year.
>
> I need to show up with a list of tasks for users to perform (about
> 15-30 min worth). I've a few ideas off the top of my head, including
> testing the sidebar, but I'd be grateful for additional input.
>
> What would you like to see tested? What parts of LibreOffice would
> most benefit from user feedback?
>
> Thanks,
> --R
>
> P.S. If you will be in the Boston area on March 21st, it'd be great to
> have you attend SpinachCon -- just drop me an email!
>
>
> [1] SpinachCon will provide realtime user experience feedback and
> constructive criticism for participating free software projects in a
> friendly environment.
>
> SpinachCon will be a four hour open house where users will come by and
> do a few tasks with each of four projects. In order to make it even
> friendlier, projects will pair up and hear each other's feedback. This
> precludes the developers or project evangelists from interrupting user
> feedback with explanations or apologies. After the event is over, each
> project gets to take their own project's feebdack with them.
>
> At this inaugural SpinachCon, users will be encouraged to try all four
> projects. We envision user-testers spending around two hours with us,
> so the list of tasks you ask users to perform should take 15-30
> minutes. We'd like for each project to bring at least two people --
> although three is probably ideal. Your project volunteers do not need
> to be technical volunteers. If you'd like your project to participate
> and are having trouble finding local people, let me know and I will
> put out a call to our local GNU/Linux user group to try and help you
> fill in the gap.
> ---
>
> [2] http://libreplanet.org/2014/
>
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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat -- canceled

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Unfortunately, it seems like neither me nor Astron can make it to the chat
this week, so, given the general low attendance, let's cancel it this week.
You're welcome to chime in with topics for next week, though. :)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] getting larger set of colors that the standard that comes with LO

[Mirek M.]

I definitely agree.
However, the problem is that we don't have a developer to work on this.
We've been trying to get custom colors for ages.
If you know a dev that would be interested, let me know. :)


2014-02-27 20:00 GMT+01:00 Paul D. Mirowsky :

> Hello
>
> There was a lengthy discussion on us...@global.libreoffice.org about
> Writer and its color selector.
>
> Have a look at this image at the URL below.
>
> https://db.tt/pLDjVXJW
>
>
> See Subject "Re: [libreoffice-users] getting larger set of colors that the
> standard that comes with LO" on us...@global.libreoffice.org
>
>
> It was suggested I forward my comments to you.
>
>
>  Is it me or does this, as an interface, look like it's getting out of
>> control.
>>
>> Might I suggest it is time to allow
>> 1) A default 4 rows of 8, a 32 basic color set.
>> 2) Above that, rows of 8 of "Last Colors Used".  "Last Colors Used"
>> should be selectable in 'Defaults' to the multiples of 8 up to a maximum of
>> 32 (or some number).
>> 3) At the bottom a click to see "More Colors..." and borrow the 'Color
>> Picker' from LibreOffice Draw.
>>  (Side Comment: still don't know why "Color Picker" isn't
>> universally default with last used colors below in LibreOffice)
>>
>> Tracking 32 colors for me is well into the "I'm getting lost" realm in a
>> layout. I respectfully ask Kracked_P_P for input on this.
>>
>> I think this might keep down the amount of load time involved.
>>
>> The question of weather remembered "Last Colors Used" is universal or
>> document only is interesting?
>>  Also, how it should be organized, by creation sequence or hue or
>> saturation?
>>
>> Is a good idea?
>>
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Thanks
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] New Whiteboard for Importing Styles from other Files

[Mirek M.]

2014-02-27 11:32 GMT+01:00 Stefan Knorr :

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> I've (finally!) opened a new whiteboard discussing a proposal for a
> (re-) implementation of the dialogue that allowed to import styles
> from another file in the currently opened file.
>
>
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Importing_Styles_from_Other_Files
>

The right link seems to be
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Importing_Styles_from_Other_Files

Looks great!
Could you address how hierarchies of styles are handled in the style
picker? (In other works, is the style picker a flat list or does it somehow
show hierachy?)
Also, no other module aside from Writer has an "Options" dropdown. Would
the other modules have a special Import dropdown instead?

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2014-02-23

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
As every week, we'll have an IRC chat tomorrow. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.
Everyone's welcome.

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 02-09-2014

[Mirek M.]

We'll have an IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .

Topics to discuss:
- Options
- Icons
Feel free to add topics...

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The Sidebar Problem

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I feel like the conversation has shifted to styles vs. direct formatting,
which really isn't the crux of the sidebar problem. (BTW, the Properties
pane of the sidebar is very likely to feature styles in the future.)

Here are the relevant parts of Microsoft's task pane blog post [1] that
point out what problems there are with the UI element:
"The downsides of the Task Panes were many. Number one, given that all the
menus and toolbars still had to be present, it did take up a lot of space,
as you'll see if you reflect back on my now infamous "Mythbusters"
post.
Worse, because it didn't actually replace any of the existing UI metaphors,
it created yet another
rockfor
users to look under. Now, in addition to short menus, long menus,
hierarchical menus, visible toolbars, and the toolbar list, a user had to
look through the Task Pane stack as well for features. It just added
complexity to the product.

Probably my biggest misgiving about Task Panes is that they encourage bad
interaction design. Every PM wanted to design their feature as a Task Pane
because they could have a brand new, clean rectangle to put their feature
in. This makes their job easier and your experience, as a person using the
software, worse. Every feature would whack away the Task Pane of the
previous feature (because only one could be up at once.) Some of the Task
Panes were quasi-wizards with multiple pages, some of them were really
dialog boxes, some of them were just a menu of two commands with a bunch of
explanatory text around them. No one really thought about the experience of
how to reconcile all of the Task Panes--how to find related functionality
in the old UI system, how to use two features at once, and the fact that
ever single feature required its own huge rectangle. In just two releases,
ending with Office 2003, we already stretched the limit of Task Panes as a
manageable UI paradigm."
[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2006/04/03/567261.aspx


2014-02-07 9:33 GMT+01:00 Daniel Hulse :

> "An abomination."
>
> "Accursed."
>
> Using direct formatting as a reason to dislike the sidebar is ridiculous.
> The sidebar can be changed, if need be. If anything, having a sidebar fits
> using styles much better than a toolbar does. Let me explain: In the
> toolbar, you pull styles in a list that gets in the way of the document,
> which may end up covering the exact thing you are trying to format. In a
> sidebar, this element would cover other controls that you aren't using at
> the moment, which is fine.
>
> Don't misunderstand me, I use styles--they are very useful and definitely
> the "right" way to do things. But we shouldn't push people into using them
> until editing, using, and managing styles is at least as intuitive as
> direct
> formatting is now.
> "> I don't like menus."
> I didn't say that. I said the opposite of that.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The Sidebar Problem

[Mirek M.]

Hi Alex,

2014-01-28 Alexander Wilms 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> agree that the duplication of functionality is rather confusing.Did you
> mean that the individual panes would appear as a pop-up like e.g. the
> "Insert table" button already does?
> The cell appearance btton would then open the panel in sucha a way:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SoIjRsaQikR3lZT1RBNThTcmc/
> edit?usp=sharing
>

For most of the panes, a popover isn't appropriate, as the pane is simply
too complex to be useful as a popover. As per elementary's guidelines [1]
(GNOME doesn't have its own popover guidelines yet), "don't use a popover
if the user would spend more than a few seconds in it".
In the case of the Properties pane, I hope one day it will completely
replace the formatting dialogs that we have.

That said, I would love to have some simple, specialized popovers for quick
tweaks. Even something like
http://bassultra.deviantart.com/art/Spreadsheet-363147552 (that's still
just a subset of what we have in Properties). Or an Insert popover.
That's a project for another day, though.

I think this would be better than showing them in a sidebar, since the
> mouse has to travel more and there's no visual connection.


It'd be great if it was possible to align toolbar buttons to the right [2].
That could solve both the mouse travel and the visual connection problems.
I hope to have a discussion on this at the upcoming hackfest.

[1] http://elementaryos.org/docs/human-interface-guidelines/popovers
[2] As in http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580or
http://media.maceinsteiger.de/2009/02/bild-27.jpg

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[libreoffice-design] The Sidebar Problem

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Ever since we've adopted the sidebar, we've had issues with duplicate
panels [1]. Worse yet, the sidebar brings yet another UI element to look
through for commands. This might not sound like a big problem, but this
makes our already hard to use UI even harder to use, and is bound to get
worse as the sidebar develops.

I'd recommend to read through the usability problems Microsoft found with
its Office task pane (which was very much like our sidebar):
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2006/04/03/567261.aspx .

So what should we do?

I've been a big advocate of having a single place where to look for
commands. (That, by the way, is the single biggest advantage the Ribbon
brought to MS Office [2].) In our case, that place would be the toolbar.

My proposed solution would be to split the sidebar into individual panels
(e.g. Properties, Formulas, Custom Animation, Slide Transition, etc.) and
add buttons for launching them to the relevant toolbars. This would not
only solve the problems of panel duplication [1], but it would also add
context to the individual panels. For example, the Slide Layout and Slide
Transition buttons would appear in the Slide toolbar. The Functions pane
could appear when clicking the functions button in the formula bar.
Properties could easily replace all the toolbar buttons that currently
point to the relevant formatting dialogs. And we already have buttons for
Styles, the Gallery, and the Navigator.

In any case, it's imperative that we do something about the problem. We
can't afford to dig ourselves even further in terms of UX.

[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73151
[2] "The Ribbon is the starting point for all functionality." --
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2005/10/11/479586.aspx

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi armandos,

2014/1/24 armandos 

> Hello all! First time poster around here.
> A friend of mine is a Marketer and I could bring him along to the next IRC
> chat session.
>

As said above, this isn't about a marketing message.
He's welcome to join the marketing team, though.

>
>
>
> --
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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2014-01-26

[Mirek M.]

As every week, there'll be an IRC chat Sunday. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Among other things, we'll settle on the purpose of Impress. If you'd like
to comment on that, there's a special thread for it on this mailing list.

If you have any topics you'd like to see discussed, send them by reply.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi Owen,


2014/1/22 Owen Genat 

> mirek2 wrote
> > My rough draft:
> > The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a slide
> > show to perfectly complement a speech."
> > Please comment on this.
>
> Hi Mirek,
> I always think of the ancient Greek and Roman forum and the idea of
> appealing to the masses; reaching out to touch others. Taking an idea and
> projecting it, both larger and to a wider audience. Impress is a sort of
> amphitheatre for the mind and skywriting stylus for the hand. It enhances
> live communication by augmenting and clarifying the conveyance of an idea.
> The cliché would be to say it "brings to life" ... but please do not go
> there.
>
> Another aspect I suppose is the ability of Impress (being libre / open) to
> transform communities by helping them assert a sense of unencumbered
> identity and value. This is moreso the case with the presentation component
> than any other component in an office suite. I personally feel this is an
> undersold aspect of much libre / open software. Community is another
> important aspect. Both are points of distinction from commercial products.
> It is unsurprising that Apple promotes "simple" and "beautiful" as those
> are
> their hallmarks. The Prezi statement is more interesting, focusing as it
> does on "enabling" and "conversations".
>
> I realise my offering here is all more marketing than features, such as the
> "quick" and "simple" in your original rough draft. I will be interested to
> see whether the overview / mission statement for Impress ends up being more
> marketing or feature based.
>
> My offering:
> Impress is a projector for your mind. Transform personal ideas effortlessly
> into visually compelling presentations for your community.
>

I like this idea, but more as a marketing message than a design goal.
The problems I see with it as a design goal:
a) I'd like to keep the audience generic, not limited to "your community".
b) I'd like to keep the topic generic, not limited to "personal ideas".
c) As stated in my previous message, I'd prefer to focus on complementing
speeches rather than replacing them. It sounds like your definition leans
toward the latter.

Tell me if you disagree with any of these points, though.

>
> Kind regards, Owen.
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi Marc,

2014/1/19 Marc Paré 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Le 2014-01-19 08:45, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
>  Hi guys,
>> In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
>> LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these modules
>> are
>> for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on doing one
>> thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.
>>
>> Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of the
>> clearest, let's start with it.
>>
>> My rough draft:
>> The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a slide
>> show to perfectly complement a speech."
>> Please comment on this.
>>
>> I'd like to have the purpose decided on by the next IRC chat.
>>
>>
> Sure, it can be be this, however, it should stand on its own merits
> without the speech as well. In reality, most people will use it to
> complement their speeches but also usually post it on some form of media
> storage (cloud, website etc.) for people to download and to view themselves
> without any accompanying speech.
>
> So, sure, it can complement speech, BUT, it is usually intended to stand
> on its own merits for other people to read.
>

I knew this was going to be brought up -- the word "complement" was chosen
deliberately.
Again, this is a question of focus.
I'd really prefer to focus on creating the best speech complements rather
than speech replacements, as, when given in conjunction with a speech, the
latter tends to take focus away from the speech. If the slides are a
full-on replacement, why is the presenter even there? Why not just autoplay
the slides?

That's not to say putting up only slides is worthless -- they often provide
a good overview of the speech.
That said, it's always better to provide the slides along with the talk
(video or audio, or even transcript), and that tends to be the norm
nowadays.

>
> As for having this discussion on the marketing list ... we can make of the
> Impress module whatever we decide, whether a fancy slideshow, support for
> speech, entertainment package, photo repository, etc.
>
> IMO, for design purposes, defining the Impress function discussion is fine
> on this list, but for the outside public, the marketing team should be
> putting on the descriptive face of Impress -- advertising as a "one
> function" module would not be in our best interest as it can serve many
> functions.
>

Yes -- the marketing message is certainly up to you. :)

>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
>
> --
> Marc Paré
> m...@marcpare.com
> http://www.parEntreprise.com
> parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. schrieb:
>
>> Hi Regina,
>>
>>
>> 2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 
>>
>>  Hi Mirek,
>>>
>>> Mirek M. schrieb:
>>>
>>>  Hi Regina,
>>>>
>>>> 2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 
>>>>
>>>>   Hi Mirek,
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mirek M. schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi guys,
>>>>>
>>>>>  In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
>>>>>> LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these
>>>>>> modules
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on doing
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of the
>>>>>> clearest, let's start with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My rough draft:
>>>>>> The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a
>>>>>> slide
>>>>>> show to perfectly complement a speech."
>>>>>> Please comment on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"complement a speech" is not all. There exists other popular
>>>>>> usages of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  impress. For example:
>>>>> (1) Self-repeating (product-) information, for example in shop window,
>>>>> waiting room, or station.
>>>>> (2) Interactive learning arrangement
>>>>> (3) Present pictures from travel or festivals to friends or
>>>>> parishioners
>>>>> (4) Background for memorial or meditation
>>>>> (5) Lecture notes for revision
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Yes, but it's important design practice to focus on doing one thing
>>>> excellently, not on doing several things in a mediocre way.
>>>> That doesn't mean Impress can't or shouldn't be used for other things,
>>>> but
>>>> that it should be optimized to do one thing well. Alternative use-cases
>>>> can
>>>> be covered unintentionally, by extensions, or by splitting the module
>>>> into
>>>> two.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I disagree here. Look at the questions about impress in mailing lists and
>>> forums. For example, why do you think users ask about a sound continuing
>>> over the whole slide show? Surely not for "complement a speech", but
>>> likely
>>> for purpose (3).
>>>
>>>
>> Again, I'm not asking what the software is being used for. I'm asking what
>> use-cases it should be designed for.
>> For example, if we say that the purpose of Impress is creating photo
>> slideshows, then maybe we should show the Photo Album dialog at launch.
>> If, on the other hand, we say that creating photo slideshows is not at all
>> relevant to the purpose, we should think about spinning the Photo Album
>> dialog into an extension.
>>
>>
>>> I would not keep the question on design-list, but bring it to
>>> discuss-list
>>> too.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Real-life examples of each of these:
>>>> LibreOffice Writer wasn't designed for editing code. You may use it for
>>>> that purpose, though. (You definitely shouldn't, there are much, much
>>>> better tools for the job, but it is possible.) The same goes for using
>>>> Impress for a picture slideshow -- there are better tools for the job,
>>>> and
>>>> that's because those tools were designed specifically for that job.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think, that many users do not install special applications, but use the
>>> tools they know. LO is not only used in enterprises and large
>>> administration, but in non-profit organizations like religious
>>> communities
>>> and friendly societies, small business, and in education.
>>>
>>>
>> The huge popularity of single-purpose mobile apps proves otherwise. These
>> are popular because they're simple and tailored to a single use case.
>>
>
> But "single-purpose" is a radical change of paradigm. Therefore the focus
> on design mailing list is too small.
>

It's another guidelin

Re: [libreoffice-design] The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi Charles,

2014/1/19 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Hello Regina,
>
> Le Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:43:45 +0100,
> Regina Henschel  a écrit :
>
> > Hi Mirek,
> >
> > Mirek M. schrieb:
> > > Hi Regina,
> > >
> > > 2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 
> > >
> > >> Hi Mirek,
> > >>
> > >> Mirek M. schrieb:
> > >>
> > >>   Hi guys,
> > >>> In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
> > >>> LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these
> > >>> modules are
> > >>> for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on
> > >>> doing one thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of
> > >>> the clearest, let's start with it.
> > >>>
> > >>> My rough draft:
> > >>> The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a
> > >>> slide show to perfectly complement a speech."
> > >>> Please comment on this.
> > >>>
> > >>>   "complement a speech" is not all. There exists other popular
> > >>> usages of
> > >> impress. For example:
> > >> (1) Self-repeating (product-) information, for example in shop
> > >> window, waiting room, or station.
> > >> (2) Interactive learning arrangement
> > >> (3) Present pictures from travel or festivals to friends or
> > >> parishioners (4) Background for memorial or meditation
> > >> (5) Lecture notes for revision
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes, but it's important design practice to focus on doing one thing
> > > excellently, not on doing several things in a mediocre way.
> > > That doesn't mean Impress can't or shouldn't be used for other
> > > things, but that it should be optimized to do one thing well.
> > > Alternative use-cases can be covered unintentionally, by
> > > extensions, or by splitting the module into two.
> >
> > I disagree here. Look at the questions about impress in mailing lists
> > and forums. For example, why do you think users ask about a sound
> > continuing over the whole slide show? Surely not for "complement a
> > speech", but likely for purpose (3).
> >
> > I would not keep the question on design-list, but bring it to
> > discuss-list too.
> >
>
> I disagree in part here. It's true that the question would be better
> off asked  to the marketing list (why the discuss list? :-)  )
>

The purpose of this thread is to focus our design.
The marketing message can be the same, but doesn't have to be, which is why
this thread is in the design mailing list only.


> But Mirek is not trying to find the exact ratio of use for Impress.
> He's trying to find a mission statement for Impress. Everything you
> quote as use cases for Impress are real; but they are just as real if
> you consider Apple Keynote or MS Powerpoint.
>
> Yet none of the messaging (marketing + design + distribution) around
> these two well identified software products are remotely referring to
> these types of use, despite the vendors backing them knowing fully well
> about these patterns.
>
> It would confuse our uses imho if we were to advertise Impress as a
> great support for image visualization for instance, no matter how true
> it is.
>
> Just my two cents,
>
>
> --
> Charles-H. Schulz
> Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
> Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi Regina,


2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. schrieb:
>
>> Hi Regina,
>>
>> 2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 
>>
>>  Hi Mirek,
>>>
>>> Mirek M. schrieb:
>>>
>>>   Hi guys,
>>>
>>>> In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
>>>> LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these modules
>>>> are
>>>> for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on doing one
>>>> thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.
>>>>
>>>> Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of the
>>>> clearest, let's start with it.
>>>>
>>>> My rough draft:
>>>> The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a slide
>>>> show to perfectly complement a speech."
>>>> Please comment on this.
>>>>
>>>>   "complement a speech" is not all. There exists other popular usages of
>>>>
>>> impress. For example:
>>> (1) Self-repeating (product-) information, for example in shop window,
>>> waiting room, or station.
>>> (2) Interactive learning arrangement
>>> (3) Present pictures from travel or festivals to friends or parishioners
>>> (4) Background for memorial or meditation
>>> (5) Lecture notes for revision
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, but it's important design practice to focus on doing one thing
>> excellently, not on doing several things in a mediocre way.
>> That doesn't mean Impress can't or shouldn't be used for other things, but
>> that it should be optimized to do one thing well. Alternative use-cases
>> can
>> be covered unintentionally, by extensions, or by splitting the module into
>> two.
>>
>
> I disagree here. Look at the questions about impress in mailing lists and
> forums. For example, why do you think users ask about a sound continuing
> over the whole slide show? Surely not for "complement a speech", but likely
> for purpose (3).
>

Again, I'm not asking what the software is being used for. I'm asking what
use-cases it should be designed for.
For example, if we say that the purpose of Impress is creating photo
slideshows, then maybe we should show the Photo Album dialog at launch.
If, on the other hand, we say that creating photo slideshows is not at all
relevant to the purpose, we should think about spinning the Photo Album
dialog into an extension.

>
> I would not keep the question on design-list, but bring it to discuss-list
> too.
>
>>
>> Real-life examples of each of these:
>> LibreOffice Writer wasn't designed for editing code. You may use it for
>> that purpose, though. (You definitely shouldn't, there are much, much
>> better tools for the job, but it is possible.) The same goes for using
>> Impress for a picture slideshow -- there are better tools for the job, and
>> that's because those tools were designed specifically for that job.
>>
>
> I think, that many users do not install special applications, but use the
> tools they know. LO is not only used in enterprises and large
> administration, but in non-profit organizations like religious communities
> and friendly societies, small business, and in education.
>

The huge popularity of single-purpose mobile apps proves otherwise. These
are popular because they're simple and tailored to a single use case.

>
>  Chrome was designed strictly as a web browser, and it fulfills that role
>> excellently. You may use it as an RSS reader or as a torrent client,
>> though, if you install the right extension.
>> The Mozilla Software Suite, which was a web-browser and an e-mail client
>> combined, was discontinued in favor of the more focused Firefox and
>> Thunderbird.
>>
>
> It is continued in application "Seamonkey" and works well.
>

Yes, but there's reason why the application was discontinued and why
Firefox and Thunderbird alone are much more popular than SeaMonkey.
It's the same reason why Google Wave tanked, while Facebook Messenger
became a success. Google Wave had no clearly defined purpose, whereas
Facebook Messenger always did just one thing really well.

>
>> "simple and quick" needs to be expanded in a further step. For example one
>>
>>> requirement is adaptability.
>>>
>>>
>> What exactly do you mean by "adaptability"?
>>
>
> Slide shows are often not crafted from scratch. But users take existing
> slide shows and adapt them. The us

Re: [libreoffice-design] The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi Regina,

2014/1/19 Regina Henschel 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. schrieb:
>
>  Hi guys,
>> In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
>> LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these modules
>> are
>> for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on doing one
>> thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.
>>
>> Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of the
>> clearest, let's start with it.
>>
>> My rough draft:
>> The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a slide
>> show to perfectly complement a speech."
>> Please comment on this.
>>
>>  "complement a speech" is not all. There exists other popular usages of
> impress. For example:
> (1) Self-repeating (product-) information, for example in shop window,
> waiting room, or station.
> (2) Interactive learning arrangement
> (3) Present pictures from travel or festivals to friends or parishioners
> (4) Background for memorial or meditation
> (5) Lecture notes for revision
>

Yes, but it's important design practice to focus on doing one thing
excellently, not on doing several things in a mediocre way.
That doesn't mean Impress can't or shouldn't be used for other things, but
that it should be optimized to do one thing well. Alternative use-cases can
be covered unintentionally, by extensions, or by splitting the module into
two.

Real-life examples of each of these:
LibreOffice Writer wasn't designed for editing code. You may use it for
that purpose, though. (You definitely shouldn't, there are much, much
better tools for the job, but it is possible.) The same goes for using
Impress for a picture slideshow -- there are better tools for the job, and
that's because those tools were designed specifically for that job.
Chrome was designed strictly as a web browser, and it fulfills that role
excellently. You may use it as an RSS reader or as a torrent client,
though, if you install the right extension.
The Mozilla Software Suite, which was a web-browser and an e-mail client
combined, was discontinued in favor of the more focused Firefox and
Thunderbird.

"simple and quick" needs to be expanded in a further step. For example one
> requirement is adaptability.
>

What exactly do you mean by "adaptability"?

>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>

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[libreoffice-design] The purpose of Impress

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
In order to be able to effectively design and shape the future of
LibreOffice modules, it is imperative that we define what these modules are
for. Knowing the purpose of each module will help us focus on doing one
thing well and avoid counterproductive feature creep.

Since, out of all the modules, Impress's purpose might be one of the
clearest, let's start with it.

My rough draft:
The purpose of Impress is "to make it simple and quick to craft a slide
show to perfectly complement a speech."
Please comment on this.

I'd like to have the purpose decided on by the next IRC chat.

For comparison, Apple's Keynote "makes it simple to create and deliver
beautiful presentations" [1] and Prezi "is a virtual whiteboard that
transforms presentations from monologues into conversations: enabling
people to see, understand, and remember ideas." [2]

[1] https://www.apple.com/mac/keynote/
[2] http://prezi.com/about/

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2014-01-19

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
After a two-week break, we're having our IRC chat again.
Details at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
If you'd like to see a topic discussed, be sure to mention it in a reply.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposition for default theme

[Mirek M.]

Hi Mateuz,
Our philosophy is that, for the most part, native is best. If you think
that theme looks ugly, change your desktop theme. :)
Of course, desktop theme integration isn't perfect, and there's still ways
to go there. In comparison, though, Mozilla theming is much more primitive,
only applying to the top menu and toolbar rows, which leaves it feeling
inconsistent (note the splotches of gray in your screenshot).

There are also other problems with themes like this. For one thing, the
added complexity makes it harder to make out icons and text. There are also
problems with theming widgets on top of the theme -- for example, look at
the pushed-in "center paragraph" button in the toolbar.

All this said, there's certainly room for non-native theming -- see
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines#Non-native_Theming --
and looking good using the native theme isn't impossible either [1]. One
thing that's been holding us back is our icon theme -- if you'd like to
help with the refreshed Tango set [2], you're welcome to. There are also
other things to work on, like our toolbar layout and management, and I hope
we can have some discussions about that at the upcoming UX hackfest [3].

[1] These mockups nicely illustrate that:
http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580 ,
http://bassultra.deviantart.com/art/Spreadsheet-363147552 , though some
things aren't possible with our toolkit yet.
[2] https://github.com/libodesign/tango-testing
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest/FOSDEM2014


2014/1/13 Mateusz Zasuwik 

> Hey
>
> What do you think about this composition?
>
> http://i.imgur.com/KmABRIf.png
>
> It's "Bird lovin" theme (
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bird-lovin/ ) with #e0fad5
> background color. It's still clear and pretty nice for eyes. It could help
> single out LO from AOO.
>
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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat 2014-12-05

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Unfortunately, I can't make it to the chat this weekend, but I hope you'll
do it without me anyway.

The chat is on Sunday at 12 UTC on the #libreoffice-design channel at
freenode; more info at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

If you can't make it to the chat but would like a certain topic to be
discussed, send it in a reply.

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[libreoffice-design] Minimum target sizes

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I'd like to establish some minimum target sizes.
My proposal:
Minimum mouse target size: 6px; as large as the arrow button in a
GtkSpinBox in the current theme for theme-dependent controls
Minimum touch target: 7mm

The bit about the GtkSpinBox is from the Gnome HIG [1], which we refer to
when we don't have guidelines of our own. 6px was suggested by me. All the
spin box arrow buttons that I looked at (Windows, Mac OS X, Adwaita, and
some other themes I found using image search) had widths and heights larger
than 6px.
The touch target is based on both the Android guidelines [2] and the WP
guidelines [3].

If no one objects, I'll add these to the guidelines after the upcoming IRC
chat. (There will, of course, be room for discussion and edits afterwards.)

[1] https://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.4/input-mouse.html.en
[2] http://developer.android.com/design/style/metrics-grids.html
[3] http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9713252

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

2013/12/27 Cor Nouws 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. wrote (27-12-13 16:32)
> > 2013/12/27 Mirek M. 
> >> 2013/12/24 Cor Nouws 
> >>
> >>> I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with
> >>> the criticism on the thumbnails size.
> >>>
> >>> - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And
> >>> room for 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small.
> >>>
> >>> - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two
> >>> lines visible. Really way too large.
> >>>
> >>> Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Keep in mind that: * The number of thumbnails per line depends on
> >> the window size. * This window will usually be full-screen, given
> >> that it transforms into modules. * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails
> >> are much harder to make out.
>
> Yes, I did consider all those.
>
> >> Take a look at Stuart's screenshot:
> >>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4088188/StartCenter_1920x1200HD_fully_populated_18-thumbnails_with_vertical_scroll.jpg
> .
> >> The presentations are easy to make out, but the documents can be
> >> hard to make out, even at this size.
>
> That looks as a reasonable compromise between what I see in beta2 and rc1.
>
>
> Mirek M. wrote (27-12-13 16:41)
>
> > The thumbnails are there to be able to set apart documents at a glance,
> so
> > there's some need to be able to make out the basics, though it's true
> that
> > with documents, you'll mostly be looking at the layout and perhaps the
> > title.
>
> My response obviously was triggered by using rc1 after beta2 :)
> Larger is easer to read, of course. But at the size of rc1 I can almost
> edit them :) (1366x768 usually full screen) But finding recent document
> that are below #8 (number of recent documents counts to 25..) is a pita ;)
>
> > All these things said (talking about my recent messages, not just this
> > one), though, I wouldn't mind it if the previews were limited to 180x180
> > instead of the current 256x256.
>
> Sounds interesting!
> Is the screenshot above 180X180?
>

No, I think it's still 256x256, just on a large monitor.


> Was the size in beta2 90x90 or so ?
>

It was a smaller than 180x180, but I don't remember the exact size.

>
> thanks for your response!
> Cor
>
> --
>  - Cor Nouws
>  - http://nl.libreoffice.org
>  - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

The thumbnails are there to be able to set apart documents at a glance, so
there's some need to be able to make out the basics, though it's true that
with documents, you'll mostly be looking at the layout and perhaps the
title.

All these things said (talking about my recent messages, not just this
one), though, I wouldn't mind it if the previews were limited to 180x180
instead of the current 256x256.

2013/12/27 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 

> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Mirek M.  wrote:
> > * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a
> look
>
> I don't think there's an actual need to "make out" things. You have
> the name of the document as well, don't you? And for anything bigger
> you can open a separate window (like GNOME Sushi).
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

2013/12/27 Mirek M. 

> Hi Cor, Pedro,
>
>
> 2013/12/24 Cor Nouws 
>
>> Pedro wrote (14-12-13 10:12)
>> > Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
>> >> - Thumbnails
>> >>   I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing
>> >>   algorithm to antialias the pictures.  Also for the files that have no
>> >>   thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks
>> >>   much more consistently when there are more documents open.
>> >
>> > This reduces even more the number of available items (only 6?)... It was
>> > already hugely reduced by removing the tabs...
>> > I think it makes the Recent Documents irrelevant...
>>
>> I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with the
>> criticism on the thumbnails size.
>>
>>  - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And room for
>> 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small.
>>
>>  - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two lines
>> visible. Really way too large.
>>
>> Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO.
>>
>
> Keep in mind that:
> * The number of thumbnails per line depends on the window size.
> * This window will usually be full-screen, given that it transforms into
> modules.
> * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a
> look at Stuart's screenshot:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4088188/StartCenter_1920x1200HD_fully_populated_18-thumbnails_with_vertical_scroll.jpg.
>  The presentations are easy to make out, but the documents can be hard to
> make out, even at this size.
>

One more thing: The number of recent documents is limited, so there's not
that much need to fit a lot of thumbnails in.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

Hi Cor, Pedro,


2013/12/24 Cor Nouws 

> Pedro wrote (14-12-13 10:12)
> > Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
> >> - Thumbnails
> >>   I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing
> >>   algorithm to antialias the pictures.  Also for the files that have no
> >>   thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks
> >>   much more consistently when there are more documents open.
> >
> > This reduces even more the number of available items (only 6?)... It was
> > already hugely reduced by removing the tabs...
> > I think it makes the Recent Documents irrelevant...
>
> I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with the
> criticism on the thumbnails size.
>
>  - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And room for
> 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small.
>
>  - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two lines
> visible. Really way too large.
>
> Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO.
>

Keep in mind that:
* The number of thumbnails per line depends on the window size.
* This window will usually be full-screen, given that it transforms into
modules.
* At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a look
at Stuart's screenshot:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4088188/StartCenter_1920x1200HD_fully_populated_18-thumbnails_with_vertical_scroll.jpg.
The presentations are easy to make out, but the documents can be hard
to
make out, even at this size.

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[libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

Hi Kendy,
Sorry for replying so very late, I had some problems with compilation.
I'm really digging the bigger previews -- thanks for all your work! :)

My niggles are now purely minuscule and I guess largely subjective. (I'd
still prefer #f9f9f9 for the background of the document area, a 16px font
size for the button labels, and showing the first sentence of the welcome
message in bigger, bolder letters, as seen at
http://ubuntuone.com/0bhbyPRVt8hChFsZ64HBfO.)

However, I'd still like to ask for a few things (hope I'm not being too
brash here):
* Please refresh the list of thumbnails right after clicking "File" ->
"Recent Documents" -> "Clear List" -- it's not immediately clear that the
list was cleared. (It would also be great if you could add the "Clear List"
button right under the "File" menu, perhaps rename it to "Clear Recent
Files", for easier discoverability.)
* Please make it clear visually that "Create" is a label and not a button.
If you don't want to differentiate using font size and weight, you can add
icons for Open and Templates (those are part of
http://ubuntuone.com/0bhbyPRVt8hChFsZ64HBfO, might be somewhere in the icon
set as well).
* Please show the tooltip over the thumbnail label.

As for the border around module icons, would it be possible to a) use a
different aspect ratio for presentations, b) use a dotted outline instead
of a full one, to differentiate previews and non-previews?


2013/12/13 Jan Holesovsky 

> Hi Mirek, all,
>
> Mirek M. píše v St 04. 12. 2013 v 10:03 +0100:
>
>
> > Yes, here are the decisions [1]:
> >
> > * Keep sidebar on the left for LTR locales, have it on the right for
> > RTL locales.
> > * Use thumbnails, but indicate file type using colors or badges. -- We
> > still need to design this, but if we don't do it in time, having no
> > color codes for this release is fine and we'll put them in the next
> > one.
> > * Use 2-line labels, with the name cut off in the middle, just like
> > the labels in Gnome Documents.
> > * Show the full file path (including extension) in a tooltip.
> >
> > * Button labels: Create Writer Text Document (or simply Writer
> > Document, if Writer Text Document is too long in some languages --
> > your call), Calc Spreadsheet, Impress Presentation, Draw Drawing, Math
> > Formula, Base Database
> >
> > * Greeting: Welcome to LibreOffice. Use the sidebar to open or create
> > a file.
>
> So I have implemented most of these, I think I've left out only the 2
> lines description - it is more complex unfortunately :-(  I also fixed a
> couple of things that were annoying me personally.  The results are
> here:
>
> Empty start center, with no documents:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-empty.png
>
> Some recent documents present:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-recent.png
>
> You can see some differences to the design, most notably:
>
> - Create
>   When playing with that, it started to annoy me that it is _above_ the
>   separator line, and that it has smaller font size.  Also, it logically
>   belongs to the group of the buttons, so I moved it there, gave it the
>   same size as the button text, and added a colon.  I believe it works
>   pretty well ;-)
>
> - Thumbnails
>   I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing
>   algorithm to antialias the pictures.  Also for the files that have no
>   thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks
>   much more consistently when there are more documents open.
>
> - Open File
>   I changed the pure 'Open' to 'Open File' - I think it goes better with
>   the explanatory Writer Document / Calc Spreadsheet etc.
>
> - Various pixel here, pixel there tweaks
>   To get more breathing space etc. - hopefully you are happy with the
>   result, it would be just too painful for everybody to ping-pong every
>   change there :-)
>
> - Mouse over
>   Now we have a mouse over effect when you point at the thumbnails.
>
> Finally - there are still things to fix around accessibility, haven't
> changed a bit there; but that shouldn't be affected by the UI freeze, I
> still plan to have a look.
>
> Please shout if anything is wrong - but I hope the current state is
> acceptable for most :-)  Everyone, please play with the nightly build
> that is built after now & report bugs.
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
>

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat 2013-12-29

[Mirek M.]

As every week, we'll have an IRC chat this weekend at 12:00 UTC on the
#libreoffice-design channel on freenode. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Everyone's welcome.

If you can't make it, but would like to see a topic discussed, send it in a
reply.

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2013-12-22

[Mirek M.]

As usual, we're having a chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC. More info at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Everyone's welcome.

If you can't make it, but would like to see a topic discussed, send it in a
reply.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] New libreoffice icons

[Mirek M.]

Hi Piotr,
Could you upload your designs somewhere? This mailing list doesn't allow
attachments.
Thanks.


2013/12/20 Piotr Podwysocki 

> Hello. I made some new, initial icons for the LibreOffice product and I
> want
> to know what do you think about them. Will you be interested in further
> designs involving my person?
>
> --
> Greetings,
> podwysoc
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[libreoffice-design] Non-native theming

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I'd love to have some guidelines on non-native theming -- please take a
look at my proposal at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Non-native_Theming and tell
me what you think.
I'd like to have a final decision next week at the IRC chat [1], so please
reply to this thread before then.

Part of the proposal are proposals on how to change current UI elements to
fit the proposed guideline.

BTW, non-native theming is nothing new -- the status bar, Calc spreadsheet
headers, additional scroll bar elements, and panels have been using custom
theming for quite a while. The new custom Windows look is a recent addition.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2013-12-15

[Mirek M.]

Just like every week, we're having a chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC -- more
info at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Everyone's welcome.

Topics to cover:
* Guidelines
Feel free to add your own in a reply to this message.

If there's nothing else to talk about:
* Writer, Calc, Impress/Draw, and Math Options [1].
* Preparations for the UX Hackfest

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,

2013/12/13 Michel Renon 

> Hi,
>
> Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>> Hello Michel,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>> Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
>> not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
>> Which is a problem since the start.
>>
>
>
> I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and
> energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this
> mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force
> your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least
> meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).
>
>
>
>
>>  [...]
>>>
>>
>> What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
>> never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
>> before.
>>
>
> False !
> I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in
> march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.
> freedesktop.org
> Cc: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org, italo.vign...@gmail.com
>
> So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.
>
> And I had only 2 answers :
> - one from Emir Yāsin SARI
> - the other from Michael Meeks :
> (short version with my words)
> - "we don't want to take care of your advises"
> - "TDF is very happy with the current design team"
>
> and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
> So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what
> can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.
>
>
> So I can return your argument :
> why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
> why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX
> design ?
> why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs
> and designers work together ?
>
>
> Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask
> my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !
>
>
>
>  I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
>> if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.
>>
>
>
> Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
> (https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%
> 9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon
>
> My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
> (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while
> working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)
>
> BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem :
> only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.
>
>
> and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has
> been archived) :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
>
> BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
> What is your *real* experience in software design ?
> Have you ever produced a professional software ?
>

No. I'm simply a volunteer here, nothing else. :)
As I said before, I was never appointed as a UX lead, and you're welcome to
partake in all the activities I partake in. You can act as the "UX lead",
if you'd like. :)

>
> For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I
> worked for color picker, template manager.
> From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in
> ux-advise.
> I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer
> and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team
> lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my
> motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.
>
>
>
> And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of
> motivation :
> - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
>

It all depends on the people. If you have the skills to make design a first
class citizen here, go for it. Don't ask for my approval -- you don't need
it.


> - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
>

That's not exactly true. What was said is that user comments won't be the
primary driving force behind development, to avoid feature creep.


> - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term
> vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a
> libertarian project
>

You can propose a roadmap or a vision. If people like it, they'll follow it.


> - design team has no plans to enhance the design process
>

Come to the IRC chat on Saturday -- we can talk about the design process
then.
However, it seemed to me from your blog posts that you were asking for a
paid group of professional UX designers working outside of the community,
which I don't really think has a 

[libreoffice-design] Minimum Window Size

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I'd like to have some guidelines on window size in our HIG.

>From a quick search, I can see Windows guidelines have this to say on the
topic [1]: "Set a minimum window size if there is a size below which the
content is no longer usable. For resizable controls, set minimum resizable
element sizes to their smallest functional sizes, such as minimum
functional column widths in list views.".

If you have some UX research on the topic to share, please post it in this
thread.

[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa511331.aspx

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Rofolfo,


2013/12/6 Rodolfo 

> Hi, Michel.
>
> I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
> Color picker once its design is done.
>

Wonderful.
Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still
uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking
an evolutionary approach with the picker.
The first step would be to implement document colors:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 .
Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color
palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons.
It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a
consistent set of custom colors within a document.

Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :)


> I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its
> proposal was clear enough to deploy[2].
>
> Regards,
> Rodolfo
>
> [1]
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77
> [2]
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control
>
> 2013/12/5 Michel Renon :
> [snip]
> > Another example : the color picker.
> > How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
> > Will it be implemented any day ?
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,
Sorry for taking so long to respond -- I had a really busy week.

2013/12/6 Michel Renon 

> Hi Mirek,
>
>
> Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
>  Hi Michel,
>> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
>> welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has
>> to accept those changes.)
>>
>
> As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something and
> then modify it again and again than taking time to design it correctly the
> first time.
> I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes.


Agreed on going for the best design before development.

>
>
>> If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
>> are based on heuristics [1],
>>
>
> Too much abstract.
>

They might seem abstract at a cursory glance, but they're really quite
well-defined. They seem to have been devised by Alex Faaborg and have been
used to tag FireFox UX bugs.
BTW, if you have some time, I recommend his I/O presentations [1][2].

>
>  guidelines [2],
>>
>
> It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget...
>

We refer to the latest Gnome guidelines when we don't have guidelines of
our own.
We should expand the guidelines when we hit on topics that the Gnome HIG
does not cover or when we have important reasons to diverge from their
guidelines and create our own.

>
>  and discussions,
>>
>
> That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions !
> You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a
> scientific way.
>

Please guide the way. :)

>
>  but of
>> course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
>>
>
>
Till today, the validation is done only with "I like", "I don't like", "I'd
> prefer" from the design lead/team.


I feel this relates to your earlier message, so I'll post a snippet:

" Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress. You can see
that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance but that
proposal was refused by the design lead without any valid/scientific
arguments 
:http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html";

So, first and foremost, where does it say that I'm the design lead? I don't
recall being elected or appointed as one, nor do I recall calling myself
that.
Secondly, "I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation
panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated
as is." is not a rejection, it's simply me stating my opinion. Please don't
get discouraged so quickly. :)


> Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise
> goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to
> perform a specific action, or mouse move distance).


The measurable goals you listed can have adverse affects on the UX -- they
put too much focus onto one specific UX problem without considering the
multitude of others. If we take number of clicks as an example, with the
least clicks being the most desirable, and have that as our goal, we could
easily end up with an unusable setup that could suffer from:
* Not enough space given to the document because the we put as many buttons
up front as we could
* Incomprehensible buttons because we shrank the icon size to fit as many
as we could
* Hard-to-target buttons because they've been made too small
* Being too hard to process because of the sheer volume of commands
presented at once
etc.

The principles we have take the broader situation into consideration.
For example, rather than number of clicks, the more broadly-defined
ux-efficiency principle allows for solutions like keyboard shortcuts,
contextual buttons, touch gestures, voice commands, etc., and the other
principles ensure that other important UX aspects aren't abandoned just to
support this principle.

As for the global vision, I wonder what exactly you'd imagine -- please
elaborate.

My take on the issue is that it'd be good to define what the purpose of
each module is and then base our design decisions on that purpose as well
as our principles and guidelines.
For example, if we say Writer is a tool for producing professional-looking
documents intended to be viewed page-by-page, then we should seriously
consider losing Web view (which goes against the page-by-page part) and
FontWork (which, ask any typographer, goes against the
"profesional-looking" part) -- or rather, spinning them off as extensions.
Extensions, in general, are an excellent way to provide features that are
not in the scope of the project, and

[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2013-12-08

[Mirek M.]

More about the chat at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Everyone's welcome, even non-designers and listeners.

Topics for the chat:
* Start Center Color Codes [1]

If there's nothing else to talk about:
* Categorize Writer, Calc, Impress, Draw, and Math Options [2].
* Preparations for the UX Hackfest

[1]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center#File_Type_Differentiation
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options

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[libreoffice-design] Start Center Color Coding

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
We agreed on the IRC chat [1] that it'd be best if we kept thumbnails, but
used some form of color coding or possibly badging to differentiate them by
file type.
If you have an idea of what that could look like, please propose it at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center#File_Type_Differentiation.

P.S. I know someone proposed colored shadows, but I can't find the mockup.
Please post it on the wiki.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-12-01

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[libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

2013/12/4 Jan Holesovsky 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. píše v Čt 28. 11. 2013 v 22:01 +0100:
>
>
> > Please wait with the text until after this week's IRC chat, where we
> > should finally reach consensus on all the controversial topics --
> > including button labels and the welcome text.
>
> Do we have the consensus now, please?
>

Yes, here are the decisions [1]:
* Keep sidebar on the left for LTR locales, have it on the right for RTL
locales.
* Use thumbnails, but indicate file type using colors or badges. -- We
still need to design this, but if we don't do it in time, having no color
codes for this release is fine and we'll put them in the next one.
* Use 2-line labels, with the name cut off in the middle, just like the
labels in Gnome Documents.
* Show the full file path (including extension) in a tooltip.
* Button labels: *Create Writer Text Document* (or simply *Writer Document*,
if *Writer Text Document* is too long in some languages -- your call)
*, Calc Spreadsheet, Impress Presentation, Draw Drawing, Math Formula, Base
Database*
** *Greeting:

*Welcome to LibreOffice. Use the sidebar to open or create a file.*
Sorry that it took me so long to write.

>
> Thank you,
> Kendy
>
>
> [1]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center#Controversial_Topics

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[libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

2013/11/28 Jan Holesovsky 

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. píše v St 27. 11. 2013 v 21:23 +0100:
>
> > The Start Center is a hot topic right now, I thought I'd chime in with
> > my few cents.
> >
> > Kendy, sorry for asking you to do more work, I know you're busy. If
> > you decide to just keep the center as is for now, that's fine.
> > Also, sorry if I made it seem like Astron's mockup was a final draft:
> > we settled on some basics during the chat, from which Astron
> > constructed the mockup, but there's still minor details to settle on.
> >
> > Lastly, don't be discouraged by the volume. Most of the suggestions
> > are simple tweaks.
>
> Sure, no problem :-)  Cannot promise that I'll be able to do everything,
> but have some own favorite annoyances too, so definitely will spend some
> time on this still.
>
> As the first thing, I'll tweak the text so that the translators have the
> final version early, then the other stuff.
>

Please wait with the text until after this week's IRC chat, where we should
finally reach consensus on all the controversial topics -- including button
labels and the welcome text.

I hope most of the suggestions in my message aren't controversial, though.
(At least, it seems so by the lack of responses here.)
Except the one about the capitalization of the "Create" label -- let's keep
it capitalized as it is now (so not all-caps).

>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

2013/11/27 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 

> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Mirek M.  wrote:
> > * The "Create" label should be clearly set apart from clickable buttons.
> I
> > suggest making it uppercase and bold.
>
> I disagree with this one. I hate SCREAMING in UIs (and exclamation
> marks as well, BTW). We shouldn’t follow Office/Visual Studio 2013 on
> making any labels hard to read with uppercase letters. Bold will do
> fine, no need for “CREATE”.
>

I hate screaming in UIs as well, but I disagree all-caps always reads as
screaming.
See
http://www.essentialmac.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Mac-OS-X-Lion-Finder.jpgfor
example. Do the headers in the sidebar scream, in your opinion?

In any case, I'm fine with keeping it simply capitalized. :)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Adding Mittaphap / Droid Sans / Khmer OS Fonts to LibreOffice for Lao, Thai, and Khmer Support

[Mirek M.]

Hi Robert,
We discussed fonts not too long ago [1].
We decided against Droid Sans, as it doesn't offer an Italic variant.
I don't think we could offer Khmer, as the MPL, which LibreOffice is
licensed under, is more permissive than the LGPL. I'm not sure, though.
As for Mittaphap, I haven't heard of it. Could you describe it a bit more,
similar to the way fonts are described at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Wishlists/Fonts? Is it a good
font typographically?

I'm thinking we should bundle Noto Sans [2] and Noto Serif [3], though, as
those have the goal of covering all of Unicode.

Thoughts?

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Wishlists/Fonts
[2] https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Noto+Sans
[3] https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Noto+Serif

2013/11/25 Robert M Campbell 

> Is it possible to include the following fonts to LibreOffice?
>
> These fonts will help 3 SEA languages have built-in support.
>
> Thai language
> Droid Sans - Apache v2 license
> https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Droid+Sans
>
> Khmer language
> Khmer OS - LGPL license
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/khmer/files/Fonts%20-%20KhmerOS/KhmerOS%20Fonts%204.0-%20LGPL%20License/
>
> Lao language
> Mittaphap - SIL OFL license
> http://hg.palaso.org/font-lao2/file/d0764b11848f
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=89727 (Mittaphap
> generated font)
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=89728 (Mittaphap Book
> generated font)
>
> --
> Respectfully,
>
> *Robert M Campbell*
> IT Specialist for ADRA Laos & Open Source Advocate
> Lao Cell: +856 207 616 7299
> US Phone: +1 270 681 0399
> robert.rcampb...@gmail.com
> rcampb...@adralaos.org
>
> Visit ADRA Lao's Facebook Page at facebook.com/ADRALaos
> 
>
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[libreoffice-design] Report UX Bugs!

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
The upcoming UX Hackfest [1] will be a unique opportunity to get UX bugs
fixed, so please report all the UX bugs you can find.
The guidelines for how to do that are on
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design . Please give feedback on those
(in this thread) -- they're a first version.

P.S. I'll wait ~ a week and then post this to Diaspora/Google+. I'd just
like to get some feedback on the bug reporting guidelines first, before I
encourage a wider audience to file bugs.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest/FOSDEM2014

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat 2013-12-01

[Mirek M.]

Topics for the chat:
* Controversial problems in the Start Center [1]

If there's nothing else to talk about:
* Categorize Writer, Calc, Impress, Draw, and Math Options. (We should
really get going on these.)

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Options

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Though it wasn't the intent, it feels like I've become the de facto
moderator of IRC chats. Given that I can't always attend, I'd really like
it if the chat didn't depend on me.

So:
* If you're at the chat, please don't wait for me to come to start a
discussion.
* As for topics to discuss, how about we start a thread on the mailing list
after every chat collecting topics for the next chat? The person who posts
the log can start the thread.

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[libreoffice-design] Start Center Niggles

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
The Start Center is a hot topic right now, I thought I'd chime in with my
few cents.
Kendy, sorry for asking you to do more work, I know you're busy. If you
decide to just keep the center as is for now, that's fine.
Also, sorry if I made it seem like Astron's mockup was a final draft: we
settled on some basics during the chat, from which Astron constructed the
mockup, but there's still minor details to settle on.
Lastly, don't be discouraged by the volume. Most of the suggestions are
simple tweaks.

So, without further ado:
In terms of layout and sizing:
* In general, I'd imagine it more like
http://ubuntuone.com/0bhbyPRVt8hChFsZ64HBfO . (I hope it's okay I based
that on your mockup, Astron.) That means:
* No gray margin around the "main" area (the sidebar + document area).
* Smaller text (18px for the top buttons, 16px for the buttons under
"Create")
* More breathing room for the buttons in the sidebar -- see attached mockup
for specific sizes.
* The "Create" label should be closer to the line under it and farther from
the "Template" button, to clearly show the relationship it has to the
buttons.

In terms of general appearance:
* The "Create" label should be clearly set apart from clickable buttons. I
suggest making it uppercase and bold.
* The line below "Create" should be white.
* I'd suggest making the background of the recent document area less bright
(it can be a bit hard on the eyes, especially compared to the current Start
Center): #f9f9f9 would do, though Gnome uses #f1f2f1. Take your pick.

In terms of the appearance of recents, I'd like to follow Gnome [1] here,
meaning:
* The thumbnail area should be square [2] and much bigger. I'd suggest
around 180x180 with a 15px margin on all sides (so 30 px between
consecutive thumbnails).
* Icons (when there's no thumbnail) should appear without a border.
* Filenames should be allowed to span 2 rows and should show both the end
and the beginning of the name, with the eventual ellipsis in the middle.
* Filenames should show file extension. (In my experience, people sometimes
edit a file as ODF, export it as a DOCX for sharing, but keep editing as
ODF for full compatibility. In the current SC, there'd be no way to tell
the two apart.) If we must hide the extension, a) let's hide it for ODF
docs only, or b) let's design badges for non-ODF filetypes (would require a
willing volunteer).
* Tooltips should be shown over the thumbnail label, not where the cursor
is. They should show the full path of the document. (Right now, they're not
very useful.)
* There should be some indication that the thumbnails activate on single
click. In Nautilus (in single-click mode), thumbnails light up on hover and
the cursor changes to a pointer -- let's do that.

Also:
* Double(+)-clicking a thumbnail should open it only once.
* "Clear list" should appear either in the document area or in the File
menu directly (where it should be relabeled "Clear recent documents").
Clicking it should clear out the thumbnails right away.
* The window sometimes flickers when it's resized, though it's not as much
of an issue as it used to be with the tabbed version.
* As the others, I'd prefer a different welcome message. I'll post about it
in the Welcome message thread.

All of this said, I love the work so far, and I'm excited by the direction
LibreOffice is taking.
Thanks, Kendy!

[1] https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Apps/Documents
[2] http://ubuntuone.com/0mqVtlqmcqUpoVkGXbmh10

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Controversial topics for the start center

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,

2013/11/26 

>
>
> Why I get impression that this Start Center is one step ahead and two steps
> back?
>
> True
>
> In my opinion:
> + there should be "Open" and "Templates" icons. Without them, options are
> invisible ("dead zone" for eyes)
> + there should be "Location" address bar.
> + every thumbnail should has gray background only if mouse cursor is over
> document
> + user should can manage single document and whole list as well.
> + tabs are really nice feature if user works with many documents
>
> And last but not least. I remove "new" prefix because other language than
> English are not so simple and this short word will looks obscure e.g. in
> Polish.
>
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e4/4.2_start_center.png
>
> In my opinon (after this picture)
> Tabs are redundant, they share their manes with the labels on the side bar
>
> why not
> 1 click on the name to get the filtered list
> 1 click on the icon to get a new … whatever
> or
> 1 click on the side bar item to get the filtered list
> 1 next click to get a new doc of the selected item, assuming you don't
> move the mouse because there is nothing to be found.
>

I'm not sure that would be discoverable.
It's also better practice to have one button serve one function -- it's
less confusing.

>
> If It can help …
> Michel
>
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[libreoffice-design] Our First UX Hackfest

[Mirek M.]

I'm happy to announce that we'll be having our first UX Hackfest right
after FOSDEM, thanks to the generous support of our friends at Betacowork:
http://www.betacowork.com/ -- give them a shout out if you can!

Read more at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest/FOSDEM2014, with
more information coming. Add your name if you'd like to come, either as a
designer or as a hacker. (And if you're both, you'll be doubly appreciated.)

And if anyone would like to provide a logo for the hackfest (along the
lines of the other hackfest logos[1]), you're more than welcome to propose
one.

[1] e.g. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:HHHackfest2013.png

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend the IRC chat today. I hope you can
do it without me. :)
Details about the weekly chat are at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me either.
Even after adding extras/source/glade, Glade tells me that it can't find
the LibreOffice catalog, then starts loading StartCenter.ui, but crashes at
7%. :(

BTW, for those trying to find this folder in Program Files, I don't think
you'll be able to find it there. Download the source using git:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/. (I have no clue how to use
git on Windows. Try googling "git clone on Windows".)


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Mark Morin  wrote:

> On 11/7/2013 1:07 PM, Pedro wrote:
>
>> Hi Rodolfo
>>
>>
>> Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
>>
>>> for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
>>> - choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
>>> someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
>>> - extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
>>> - open the .UI file with glade
>>>
>> I'm afraid that didn't work... Maybe it's a Windows problem? Or maybe a
>> bug
>> in Glade (the latest version for Windows is 3.14.2 while the current Glade
>> version is 3.16...)
>>
>> Any other ideas (other than switching OS :) )?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/
>> Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081972.html
>> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
> images.zip is in C:\Program Files (x86)\LibreOffice 4\share\config
> copy that and past it in the directory that you have saved StartCenter.ui
> unzip the file into images\
> in preferences select "from this directory" and browse to images
> click on an image widget
> look down to "edit image" and note the file name and the folder it is in
>
> maybe this part isn't the "right" way but it worked for me:
> I had assumed that glade knew to look in the sub-directories of images/
> but it didn't for me so
> "calc_all_image" is supposed to be found in \res. I copied all the
> contents of res\ to images and *it worked *. There's at least one more
> sub-directory to do this to (cmd\).
>
> changing the path to the file name next to "file name" didn't do anything.
> Glade couldn't find it when the path was set right and finds it after
> pasting the files (I copied, rather than cut so I'm not going to say with
> certainty that the file would still be found after cutting and pasting the
> files--but I'm betting it would.
>
> I spent a few hours with trial and error until I hit this. Hope it works
> for you. FWIW, the original description didn't work on my linux box either.
>
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Start Center

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
I had an IRC chat with Astron and Kendy about the Start Center on Wednesday
[1].
In a nutshell:
* It's likely we'll be using a sidebar, as making the toolbars responsive
would be a big task. There seemed to be agreement on using a sidebar in the
Start Center welcome graphic thread as well. (If you disagree, post a reply
here.)
* "No recent documents" isn't welcoming enough. We'll probably be using
something to the effect of "Start a new document, or open an existing one,
to see recently used documents here." Feel free to post suggestions here.
* We most likely won't be getting rid of the menu bar, but we'll be
streamlining it (for now).

It'd be good to finish up the design at the upcoming IRC chat (on Sunday)
[2] Unfortunately, I'm not a 100% sure if I can be there -- I'll definitely
try. If I'm not there and there are not enough attendees on Sunday, I'll be
there on Monday at 13:00 UTC. (I'll know if there were or weren't based on
whether there's a log up on the design wiki [2].)

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-11-06
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
UTC and reach a final destination --
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons
why they are desirable/undesirable.

Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the
document area will most likely be white.

Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If
not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar.

I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center
and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the
end of the toolbar.


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Sophie  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if
> they are missed ;)
> - Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45
> (November 4 to 10)
> - Hard feature freezed & branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47
> (November 18 to 24)
> - Hard English string & UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22)
> after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added.
> - Hard code freeze & branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6
> to 12)
> after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release.
>
> So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test
> it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :)
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>
> Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> > LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> > experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> > edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
> >
> > But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> > there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> > see here:
> >
> > http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
> >
> > It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> > recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> > up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> > white area? :-)
> >
> > It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> > should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> > problematic I'm afraid.
> >
> > Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> > awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> > necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
> >
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> > Kendy
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sophie Gautier 
> Tel:+33683901545
> Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
> The Document Foundation
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome
to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept
those changes.)

If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
are based on heuristics [1], guidelines [2], and discussions, but of course
it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
(I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user testing
right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if you could
help there.)

I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've been
ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for designs, but
now you can still chime in with suggestions for improvement, user research,
user testing, or propose patches.

If you'd like to chat further, come to today's IRC chat. [3]

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Michel Renon  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
> I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless,
> but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J.
>
> Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
> But I see that there is no real reactions.
>
> Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :
>
>  Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
>> Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>  Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>>>
>>> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
>>> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
>>> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>>>
>>> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>>>
>>
>> What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.
>>
>
>
> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge
> fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process :
> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more
> fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the
> same.
>
> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
>
> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can
> read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of
> GSOC.
>
> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...)
>
> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot
> of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
>
>
>
>
>> Do we
>> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
>>
>
> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
> graphist (not a UX designer).
>
>
>  - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
>>
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
> If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then
> it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.
>
>  - announce it?
>>
>
> No !
>
>
>  - start other things?
>> - left it all?
>>
>
> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>  - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1
> start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
>- involve devs, QA team, a11y team
>- ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])
>- should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?
>- clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every
> team
>- only then, start to implement it
>
> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
> product, a building...).
>
> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in
> the foot :
> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and
> today the start center)
>
> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts
> are here :
> http://it.slashdot.org/story/**13/10/20/2310240/forrester-**
> research-shows-steep-decline-**in-free-office-suite-stats
>
> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no
> free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android.
> (where is LibreOffi

[libreoffice-design] IRC chat

[Mirek M.]

We're having an IRC chat today at 12:00 UTC. More information at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
Everyone's welcome.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template

[Mirek M.]

Hi Ahmad,

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi <
aalhar...@kacst.edu.sa> wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
> > From: *Nagy Ákos*
>
>
> > I recomand to change the Footnote Charecters style too.
> > Usualy users and publishers like that the Footnote Characters is in
> > Superscript. For this you need to change the "Footnote Charecters"
> > Character Style.
>
>Done, thanks for the comment :)
>
>
>
> > From: *Merik*
>
>
> > Sorry for the late reply.
>  > So, my comments:
>  > I'd still like Headings to be Sans and the text Serif, or vice versa.
> I'm not alone in this idea -- using a different font for headings and for
> body text is a common practice. There are websites dedicated to font
> pairings, and the use of these pairings is why OOXML themes let the user
> choose a font for headings and a different font for body text.
>
>I'm not against the idea, but try it on low reselution screens. I
> didn't like mixed Liberation sans and serif...
>

I am trying it on my netbook, with the resolution of 1024*576 -- not the
worst of resolutions, but certainly could be better. We've been using the
combination for quite some time and I haven't heard major complaints. I'd
like to stick with it.


>Anyway, I made your changes plus others, please let me know what you
> think?
>

* Text body should be 12pt for better legibility.
* Headings should be better differentiated. The size differences are
obvious when compared near each other, but are easily lost in large bodies
of text. I'd be happier if bold, italic, and color were used for
differentiation.
* As per http://practicaltypography.com/summary-of-key-rules.html, I'd say
underlining should not be used in headings.

>
>  > I'm a bit concerned about centering table contents. Centered text is
> generally harder to read and can get in the way if you have to compare
> data. I'd rather they were left-aligned (right-aligned for RTL languages,
> of course).
>
>Yes, you're right.
>

Please update this in your proposal. :)

>
>> In general, I'd like styles to be relative, not hard-coded. That
> means that the Heading style should hold the font family, for example, not
> each individual heading.
>
>This needs some work, which I'll try to be involved in some time later.
> The whole styling system needs a review and reorganizing.
>

Sounds good.

>
> > I now also realize why the LibreOffice styles used decimal point values
> -- the headings were saved as percentages, which, come to think of it,
> isn't a bad idea.
>
>Percentage is and ems are the future, since we're going to support web,
> Android, and others.
>

What I meant was that substyles used percentage values of the parent style,
which was still in points.
In general, we should stick to points, at least with Writer, as it's
tailored toward print.

>
>  > I'm still not entirely happy with the headings. As I said earlier, I'd
> prefer if superior headings weren't lighter than subordinate headings (i.e.
> Heading 3 shouldn't be lighter than Heading 5) and I'd like there to be
> some differentiation between heading 7-10.
>
>Done, but Isn't better we get rid of headings 7-10?
>

OK, I guess that sounds good.

>
>  > I'd also like the subtitle to be lighter.
>
>Done.
>
>
>  > Here's something more along the lines of what I'd imagine:
> http://ubuntuone.com/4Ng8kwHYlwY3Cs32cEr2y2 . (There are a few more
> elements used in the document, remove them for a direct comparison.)
>
> Please let me know about this one
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d6/Template_mixed_fonts.odtI've 
> removed bold weights from all headings, sans vs serif should make
> headers clear wihtout being bold. Notice the spaces around table elements.
>
>
>
>Ahmad
>
> *Warning: *This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and
> may contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and
> its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment,
> if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any
> purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its
> attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect
> those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the
> Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused
> by this email.
>
> *تحذير:* هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد
> تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة
> فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)،
> ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها،
> أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة
> ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك
> عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي
> مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما ق

Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi Kendy,
Sorry for the late reply.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200:
>
> > > Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like
> that:
> > > https://wiki.**
> documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> > > 1600px.png<
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png
> >
> > >
> > > A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> > > companies can replace it with their logo or so.
> >
> >
> > Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been
> opened, I
> > don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
> > would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what
> we
> > want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark
> difference
> > to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of
> a
> > recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
> > principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.
> >
> > As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather
> an
> > indicator that there are no recent files to display.
> >
> > Care to confirm, Kendy?
>
> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>
> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>

What do you think about something like
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png ?

On another note, I have some feedback about the dialog:
1) Icons should be sized based on the global icon size setting. If that's
impossible, large icons should be used. (BTW, it'd be great if it could use
icons from the cmd directory. The icons that are not in there -- I'm
thinking the icons for the individual modules, correct me if I'm wrong --
should be added there and should be adjusted to the icon size standard for
other toolbar icons in the set.)
2) Icons should have standard layout. (I ripped off the layout in my mockup
from gedit, but I'm sure there are official Gnome guidelines somewhere.)
3) It would be excellent if the dialog kept a size separate from the main
module windows (i.e. if it didn't transform into module windows). Unlike
those windows, the dialog is well-suited for small sizes.
4) Despite my wireframe, I'm now thinking that the best place for the
toolbar would be the bottom. The dialog is currently too top-heavy.
5) The tabs look messy -- the active tab has a light gray 1px line on the
bottom that shouldn't be there, and the inactive tabs should be separated
from the thumbnail area by a 1px border. This applies to the tab widget in
general.
6) As I said to you before, it'd be great if the toolbar contents could
adapt to the window size, but I understand if that's impossible to do.
7) As I also said before, I'd love to get rid of the menu bar in that
window, possibly replacing it with a gear menu at the end of the toolbar
(or not replacing it at all).

>
> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template

[Mirek M.]

Hi Ahmad,
Sorry for the late reply.
So, my comments:
I'd still like Headings to be Sans and the text Serif, or vice versa. I'm
not alone in this idea -- using a different font for headings and for body
text is a common practice. There are websites dedicated to font pairings,
and the use of these pairings is why OOXML themes let the user choose a
font for headings and a different font for body text.
I'm a bit concerned about centering table contents. Centered text is
generally harder to read and can get in the way if you have to compare
data. I'd rather they were left-aligned (right-aligned for RTL languages,
of course).
In general, I'd like styles to be relative, not hard-coded. That means that
the Heading style should hold the font family, for example, not each
individual heading. I now also realize why the LibreOffice styles used
decimal point values -- the headings were saved as percentages, which, come
to think of it, isn't a bad idea.
I'm still not entirely happy with the headings. As I said earlier, I'd
prefer if superior headings weren't lighter than subordinate headings (i.e.
Heading 3 shouldn't be lighter than Heading 5) and I'd like there to be
some differentiation between heading 7-10.
I'd also like the subtitle to be lighter.

Here's something more along the lines of what I'd imagine:
http://ubuntuone.com/4Ng8kwHYlwY3Cs32cEr2y2 . (There are a few more
elements used in the document, remove them for a direct comparison.)


On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi <
aalhar...@kacst.edu.sa> wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> Please see the new templates at:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/a/a1/Templates.tar.bz2
>
> I've made two versions Serif and Sans-Serif, please have a look at them
> and give me your feedback.
>
> The files are documents to show how things will look, but not the original
> templates.
>
> Changes:
> 1. Headings set to whole numbers.
> 2. Different heading weights, and no light colours for headings
> 3. Table items centred
>
> Note: There is no consideration for headings lower than 6 ( I believe we
> should remove them )
>
>
>   Ahmad
>
> *Warning: *This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and
> may contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and
> its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment,
> if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any
> purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its
> attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect
> those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the
> Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused
> by this email.
>
> *تحذير:* هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد
> تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة
> فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)،
> ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها،
> أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة
> ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك
> عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي
> مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.
>

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat on Sunday!

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
Based on our Doodle poll, the IRC chat has been moved to Sunday at 12:00
UTC. More info about the chat at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.
Unless more people fill in the poll and the most suitable time (measured by
the involvement of people as well as number of people) changes, it will
stay that way.
If you haven't filled in the poll, please do so now at
http://www.doodle.com/my7k6ymvhx83fqw7

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:23 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol <
o...@sophia-louise.de> wrote:

> Hi Mirek, Kendy,
>
> Am 11.10.2013 18:54, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  I imagine we could just go with something simple
>> likehttps://github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/**
>> master/documents/documents-**empty.pngor<http://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor>
>> perhaps even a simple label  like the "No label" screen on
>> https://raw.github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/**
>> master/nautilus/search-wires.**png<https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png>
>> .
>> (If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that
>> our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.)
>> What do you think?
>>
>
>
> Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that:
> https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> 1600px.png<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png>
>
> A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> companies can replace it with their logo or so.


Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I
don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we
want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference
to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a
recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.

As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an
indicator that there are no recent files to display.

Care to confirm, Kendy?

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[libreoffice-design] Re: IRC Chat

[Mirek M.]

I had a chat today with medieval, log at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-10-12.
No meeting tomorrow unless some of you would really like to talk.


On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Mirek M.  wrote:

> Hi guys,
> As every week, there will be a chat today at 16:00 UTC. Read more at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
> Everyone's welcome, even just to listen in.
>
> If nobody shows up, we'll have a chat tomorrow at 13:00 UTC. (I'll add a
> post to this thread if that happens.)
>
> Also, if you haven't done so yet, put up the time you could attend the
> chat, so that we could move it to a time that better suits everyone:
> http://www.doodle.com/my7k6ymvhx83fqw7 .
>

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[libreoffice-design] Re: UX bug process

[Mirek M.]

It's official then: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design


On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Mirek M.  wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I'd really like to get the process passed as official, put it on our wiki
> page, and encourage people to report UX bugs.
> Since none of you replied to the original message, please give input
> before next Saturday 17:00 UTC. If nobody has any problems with it by then,
> I'll just pass it off as official.
>
> (It will, of course, still be modifiable afterwards, but not as easily.)
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Mirek M.  wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>> I'd like there to be a clear step-by-step guide on how to report UX bugs.
>> Unfortunately, I don't really know how to report these bugs myself, so
>> I'd like to work with all of you to devise a clear process.
>> Fabiana Simoes lays out the ground rules in her "How to not report your
>> UX bug" GUADEC talk [1]. Her presentation talks about how UX bugs should
>> center on a problem rather than on a proposed solution. To give a real-life
>> example, the summary of a UX bug should be "Non-printing Characters are Not
>> Set Apart from Text" rather than "Give non-printing characters a color
>> different from the text", as the former describes the problem,
>> encourages discussion around the best solution, and makes the reasoning
>> behind the picked solution clear, whereas the latter proposes a solution
>> right away without questioning if it is the best solution.
>>
>> As a start, I'd propose these guidelines:
>>
>> 1) In the Summary/Subject field, describe the problem, not the solution.
>> Rather than saying "X should be Y", say "I can't figure out how to X" or "I
>> expected X, but Y happened".
>>
>> *The pieces of information that Fabiana says a user should provide [2]
>> are basically covered by the Bug submission assistant [3], but should be
>> mentioned in the guidelines nevertheless:
>> *
>> 2) In the Description, mention what you were trying to accomplish, how
>> you tried to accomplish it, what you expected to happen, and what actually
>> happened.
>>
>> 3) In an additional comment, feel free to propose a solution. If your
>> proposal is long or includes mockups, put it on your user page on the TDF
>> wiki (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:[your user name]) and
>> provide a link to it in the comment instead.
>>
>>
>>
>> In regard to Whiteboards, the design team may decide to make one for a
>> bug, but I'd rather leave them out of the guidelines, as I don't want to
>> see a load of whiteboards being created without approval.
>>
>> The solution should be agreed upon based on discussions in the bug
>> comments, on the design list, and on our IRC chats (all of which should be
>> linked to in the bug comments), using our UX principles [4] and guidelines
>> [5] to resolve controversies.
>>
>> I'd also like to ask: What is the role of the ux-advise mailing list? Is
>> it a place for devs to ask designers for UX help or a place where designers
>> and devs can ask each other questions? When should a bug be tagged
>> "ux-advise"? Is it a component that should be used for all UX/UI bugs, both
>> confirmed and unconfirmed, until a solution is agreed upon?
>>
>>
>> P.S. elementary's UX bug process is also worth a look:
>> http://elementaryos.org/journal/so-you-fancy-yourself-a-designer
>>
>> [1] http://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/how-to-not-report-your-ux-bug
>> [2]
>> * What were you trying to do?
>> * Why did you want to do it?
>> * What did you do?
>> * What happened?
>> * What were your expectations?
>> * What are you running?
>> [3] https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/
>> [4] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
>> [5] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines
>>
>
>

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[libreoffice-design] IRC Chat

[Mirek M.]

Hi guys,
As every week, there will be a chat today at 16:00 UTC. Read more at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings .
Everyone's welcome, even just to listen in.

If nobody shows up, we'll have a chat tomorrow at 13:00 UTC. (I'll add a
post to this thread if that happens.)

Also, if you haven't done so yet, put up the time you could attend the
chat, so that we could move it to a time that better suits everyone:
http://www.doodle.com/my7k6ymvhx83fqw7 .

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template

[Mirek M.]

Hi Ahmad,
It's better. Thanks for adding the proportional line spacing.
I still don't understand the non-whole-number point sizes (which aren't
even part of the font size dropdown) -- what is the reasoning for that?
As I said in my earlier message, the font for headings should be definded
in the Heading style only, not in each heading style, and I'd prefer it if
the headings were all in Liberation Serif, to contrast with the body text.
I like the differing heading colors, but:
a) the Heading 4 color might be a bit too light, possibly problematic for
those with eye problems. I'd prefer not to go lighter than Heading 3.
b) I'd prefer if the colors ran from darker to lighter. Headings 7-9
shouldn't be darker than Heading 6.
c) I'd like some other differentiation between headings as well. How about
playing with Italics and the normal weight (e.g. for Heading 2, the font
size itself sets it apart)?

I've only had a cursory look at the template so far, might add more
comments later.


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi <
aalhar...@kacst.edu.sa> wrote:

>  Sorry, I forgot to add the link again...
>
>
>
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/37/Default_Writer_Sans_Template_0.2.ott
>
>
>
>
>
> Ahmad
>
> *Warning: *This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and
> may contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and
> its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment,
> if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any
> purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its
> attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect
> those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the
> Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused
> by this email.
>
> *تحذير:* هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد
> تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة
> فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)،
> ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها،
> أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة
> ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك
> عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي
> مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

[Mirek M.]

I imagine we could just go with something simple
likehttps://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor
perhaps even a simple label like the "No label" screen on
https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png
.
(If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that
our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.)
What do you think?

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
>
> But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> see here:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
>
> It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> white area? :-)
>
> It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> problematic I'm afraid.
>
> Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improved Smiley Face

[Mirek M.]

Hi Ahmad,
It's definitely better!
The eyes seem a bit too stretched out for me, though -- could you go for a
middle ground between the old and the new eyes?


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi <
aalhar...@kacst.edu.sa> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've pushed today a new "Smiley face" shape, please check it in the
> following link or just build the latest code and try it..
>
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:SmileyFace.png
>
>
> I need your feedback.
>
>
>Ahmad
> Warning: This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and may
> contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and
> its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment,
> if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any
> purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its
> attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect
> those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the
> Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused
> by this email.
>
> تحذير: هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد تحتوي
> على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة فيجب
> عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)، ولا
> يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها، أو
> البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة
> ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك
> عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي
> مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design team needs more people!?

[Mirek M.]

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Dear Ahmad,
>
> Indeed, the design team is not very big, and we're always interested in
> getting new contributors. If Mirek and the team here feel like it I can
> ask the infra to open a blog for you.
>

If Ahmad volunteers to blog, then I'm all for it. :)

>
> best,
> Charles-H. Schulz
> Co-founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
> Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
> Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.
>
>
>
> Le Thu, 3 Oct 2013 20:32:38 +,
> Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi  a écrit :
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > There are just a few people in the design team, we have to figure a
> > way to attract more people here..
> >
> > I suggest we start by blogging about LO design team and how to get
> > involved... etc.
> >
>
> Charles-H. Schulz
> Co-founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
> Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
> Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.
>
>
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>

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[libreoffice-design] IRC chat

[Mirek M.]

If anyone wants to chat, I'll be there in 15 minutes.
More info about the chat at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

Also, if you haven't voted for when the chat should take place, please do
so: http://www.doodle.com/my7k6ymvhx83fqw7

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template

[Mirek M.]

Hi Samuel,

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:

> I like it that you use a sans-serif font now.
> Are there any other options but "Liberation Sans"? I guess the choice is
> very limited because we need to support many languages.
>
> My personal preferences are
>
>  * For headings: "Open Sans" or "Source Sans Pro" (because they have
>many weights (Light, Normal, Semibold, Bold, Extrabold))
>  * For continous text Gentium or "Linux Libertine".
>  * For shorter texts "Open Sans".
>
>
> What do others think?


While I myself would love having a different default font, we've talked to
the Engineering Steering Committee and, unfortunately, it's been decided
that we stay with Liberation fonts. These fonts have the same metrics as
Times New Roman, Arial, and Courier, which are basically on every operating
system (if not those fonts, then their counterparts). Using these fonts
guarantees that the documents keep the same layout on any platform.

>
> Thanks
> Samuel
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template

[Mirek M.]

Hi Ahmad,
Could you detail all the changes you made?
My first impressions:
I like the clearer heading separation (no longer guessing if the italicized
heading is superior or inferior), but I don't like the decreased font size
for headings. How about starting with 18 pt for Heading 1, then 16, 14, 13,
12, 11 for the consecutive headings?
I really like the space after a paragraph. While you're at it, could you
make the line-spacing proportional at 120%, as recommended by Butterick's
Practical Typography [1]
The subtitle feels much too far from the title -- could it be brought a bit
closer?
I'm not sure what to think about a Liberation Sans by default. I kind of
liked the separation between headings and body text we had going.
While trying to see what the document would look like with Liberation Serif
for headings, I discovered that changing font of the Headings style did
nothing -- the font is set for each heading style separately. This should
be fixed -- the font family and style should be set for the Headings style
only.

[1] http://practicaltypography.com/summary-of-key-rules.html


2013/10/3 Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi 

> This is the link:
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/2/20/Default_Writer_Sans_Template_0.1.ott
>
>Ahmad
> Warning: This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and may
> contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and
> its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment,
> if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any
> purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its
> attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect
> those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the
> Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused
> by this email.
>
> تحذير: هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد تحتوي
> على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة فيجب
> عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)، ولا
> يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها، أو
> البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة
> ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك
> عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي
> مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.
>
>
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