Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Naomi Slater]

regarding stats from other orgs, there's some research in this piece I did
for MVC:

https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis

graph here:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/mvc-wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/slater_chart.png

the data I found suggested an average figure of maybe around 11% female
participation across OSS in 2014, putting us (5.7%) well behind the curve
on this metric

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 at 23:27 Daniel Gruno  wrote:

> On 12/21/2016 11:19 PM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/21/16, 12:10 PM, "William A Rowe Jr"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The biggest hassle with email activity is cross-correlating all of the
> >> possible
> >>> email aliases for some 6000 people, no longer really practical.
> >> committerid
> >>> is still easier if there were a way to collect git activity as well as
> >> svn based
> >>> projects.
> >>
> >> Agreed.  I was wondering if the forwarding email address stored at
> >> id.apache.org would net enough to be significant or not.  That's the
> email
> >> where you received the survey notice.  If you use that to send anything
> to
> >> an ASF list we add you to the count.
> >>
> >
> > There are also the array of ldap aliases. Perhaps there is a way to get
> > that
> > from infra for the purposes of performing a crosstab based on ponymail or
> > apmail archives?
> >
> > We can probably reduce the dataset down to an availid <> lastseen pair,
> > for purposes of determining 'seen' or 'away'.
> >
>
> You could use Snoot to get activity by commits, email, issues via the
> MVP charts. They only list the top 2000 so email lists (even
> commit-wise, we've had 1600 different people contributing these past 3
> months!) may not be exhaustive, but it should show you who is contributing.
>
> Then couple that with the committer emails
>
> with regards,
> Daniel.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Daniel Gruno]

On 12/21/2016 11:19 PM, William A Rowe Jr wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/16, 12:10 PM, "William A Rowe Jr"  wrote:
>>>
>>> The biggest hassle with email activity is cross-correlating all of the
>> possible
>>> email aliases for some 6000 people, no longer really practical.
>> committerid
>>> is still easier if there were a way to collect git activity as well as
>> svn based
>>> projects.
>>
>> Agreed.  I was wondering if the forwarding email address stored at
>> id.apache.org would net enough to be significant or not.  That's the email
>> where you received the survey notice.  If you use that to send anything to
>> an ASF list we add you to the count.
>>
> 
> There are also the array of ldap aliases. Perhaps there is a way to get
> that
> from infra for the purposes of performing a crosstab based on ponymail or
> apmail archives?
> 
> We can probably reduce the dataset down to an availid <> lastseen pair,
> for purposes of determining 'seen' or 'away'.
> 

You could use Snoot to get activity by commits, email, issues via the
MVP charts. They only list the top 2000 so email lists (even
commit-wise, we've had 1600 different people contributing these past 3
months!) may not be exhaustive, but it should show you who is contributing.

Then couple that with the committer emails

with regards,
Daniel.

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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[William A Rowe Jr]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/16, 12:10 PM, "William A Rowe Jr"  wrote:
> >
> >The biggest hassle with email activity is cross-correlating all of the
> possible
> >email aliases for some 6000 people, no longer really practical.
> committerid
> >is still easier if there were a way to collect git activity as well as
> svn based
> >projects.
>
> Agreed.  I was wondering if the forwarding email address stored at
> id.apache.org would net enough to be significant or not.  That's the email
> where you received the survey notice.  If you use that to send anything to
> an ASF list we add you to the count.
>

There are also the array of ldap aliases. Perhaps there is a way to get
that
from infra for the purposes of performing a crosstab based on ponymail or
apmail archives?

We can probably reduce the dataset down to an availid <> lastseen pair,
for purposes of determining 'seen' or 'away'.

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Alex Harui]

On 12/21/16, 12:10 PM, "William A Rowe Jr"  wrote:

>On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12/21/16, 11:05 AM, "Pierre Smits"  wrote:
>>
>> >To much work? For whom? In what period?
>> >Does is require a combined effort? A plan? Or just a firing from the
>>hip?
>>
>> Well, I think it would be good to get a new number "soon".  Sounded like
>> Daniel could get a number from commits quickly.  Not sure how hard it
>> would be to add in mailing list activity.  But opening the discussion to
>> where else to look and actually looking made me think it would take
>>longer
>> and more energy than it was worth.  Hopefully folks who earned commit
>> rights for spending time elsewhere occasionally drop by their dev@.
>>They
>> should just so folks can know what is going on only by following dev@.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents though.  I won't be doing the work or stopping anyone
>>from
>> trying.
>>
>
>The biggest hassle with email activity is cross-correlating all of the
>possible
>email aliases for some 6000 people, no longer really practical. committer
>id
>is still easier if there were a way to collect git activity as well as svn
>based
>projects.

Agreed.  I was wondering if the forwarding email address stored at
id.apache.org would net enough to be significant or not.  That's the email
where you received the survey notice.  If you use that to send anything to
an ASF list we add you to the count.

-Alex

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[William A Rowe Jr]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:

>
> On 12/21/16, 11:05 AM, "Pierre Smits"  wrote:
>
> >To much work? For whom? In what period?
> >Does is require a combined effort? A plan? Or just a firing from the hip?
>
> Well, I think it would be good to get a new number "soon".  Sounded like
> Daniel could get a number from commits quickly.  Not sure how hard it
> would be to add in mailing list activity.  But opening the discussion to
> where else to look and actually looking made me think it would take longer
> and more energy than it was worth.  Hopefully folks who earned commit
> rights for spending time elsewhere occasionally drop by their dev@.  They
> should just so folks can know what is going on only by following dev@.
>
> Just my 2 cents though.  I won't be doing the work or stopping anyone from
> trying.
>

The biggest hassle with email activity is cross-correlating all of the
possible
email aliases for some 6000 people, no longer really practical. committer id
is still easier if there were a way to collect git activity as well as svn
based
projects.

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Alex Harui]

On 12/21/16, 11:05 AM, "Pierre Smits"  wrote:

>To much work? For whom? In what period?
>Does is require a combined effort? A plan? Or just a firing from the hip?

Well, I think it would be good to get a new number "soon".  Sounded like
Daniel could get a number from commits quickly.  Not sure how hard it
would be to add in mailing list activity.  But opening the discussion to
where else to look and actually looking made me think it would take longer
and more energy than it was worth.  Hopefully folks who earned commit
rights for spending time elsewhere occasionally drop by their dev@.  They
should just so folks can know what is going on only by following dev@.

Just my 2 cents though.  I won't be doing the work or stopping anyone from
trying.
-Alex

>
>Best regards,
>
>Pierre Smits
>
>ORRTIZ.COM 
>OFBiz based solutions & services
>
>OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
>http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
>On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/16, 9:01 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
>> >> Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely
>> >>not going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we
>> >>recently elected an excellent committer who has never made a single
>> >>commit. Instead we elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement
>> >>with the community answering questions and helping new users.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as
>>a
>> >>future move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined
>> >>against stats from the mailing lists for that project?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
>> >need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
>> >communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
>> >questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.
>>
>> That's starting to sound like too much work.  Would be nice to get
>>though,
>> but a first approximation of mlist + commit should give us a rough idea
>> for how far off the original 13% response rate number might be.
>>
>> My 2 cents,
>> -Alex
>>
>>


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Pierre Smits]

To much work? For whom? In what period? Is this a short term endeavour?
Does is require a combined effort? A plan? Or just a firing from the hip?

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM 
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Alex Harui  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/16, 9:01 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
> >> Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely
> >>not going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we
> >>recently elected an excellent committer who has never made a single
> >>commit. Instead we elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement
> >>with the community answering questions and helping new users.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a
> >>future move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined
> >>against stats from the mailing lists for that project?
> >>
> >
> >Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
> >need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
> >communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
> >questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.
>
> That's starting to sound like too much work.  Would be nice to get though,
> but a first approximation of mlist + commit should give us a rough idea
> for how far off the original 13% response rate number might be.
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Alex Harui]

On 12/21/16, 9:01 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:

>
>
>On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
>> Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely
>>not going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we
>>recently elected an excellent committer who has never made a single
>>commit. Instead we elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement
>>with the community answering questions and helping new users.
>> 
>> I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a
>>future move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined
>>against stats from the mailing lists for that project?
>> 
>
>Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
>need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
>communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
>questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.

That's starting to sound like too much work.  Would be nice to get though,
but a first approximation of mlist + commit should give us a rough idea
for how far off the original 13% response rate number might be.

My 2 cents,
-Alex

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Pierre Smits]

And don't forget the various contributors who speak at events.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM 
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
> > Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely not
> going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we recently
> elected an excellent committer who has never made a single commit. Instead
> we elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement with the community
> answering questions and helping new users.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a
> future move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined
> against stats from the mailing lists for that project?
> >
>
> Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
> need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
> communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
> questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.
>
> --Rich
>
>
>
> > ---
> > A. Soroka
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/21/2016 03:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote:
> >>> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
> 
> 
>  On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> > Hello Everyone
> >
> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in
> getting
> > the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers
> that
> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to
> collect
> > this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >
> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the
> Community
> > Development wiki (see link below)
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+
> Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> >
> >
> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at
> the
> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
> 
>  It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>  registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>  "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>  numbers around that.
> >>>
> >>> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be
> possible to
> >>> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?
> >>
> >> Sure, if that's our definition of "active". Likewise, if "commit" is our
> >> definition of "active", that seems easy too. I tend to think that
> >> "active" is a bit more complex, but either one of those would give us a
> >> good first estimate.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> >> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Trevor Grant]

I think we could leverage Streams-incubating help capture the latter.

Possibly as part of the social monitoring project we'd already talked about.

Trevor Grant
Data Scientist
https://github.com/rawkintrevo
http://stackexchange.com/users/3002022/rawkintrevo
http://trevorgrant.org

*"Fortunate is he, who is able to know the causes of things."  -Virgil*


On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
> > Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely not
> going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we recently
> elected an excellent committer who has never made a single commit. Instead
> we elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement with the community
> answering questions and helping new users.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a
> future move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined
> against stats from the mailing lists for that project?
> >
>
> Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
> need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
> communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
> questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.
>
> --Rich
>
>
>
> > ---
> > A. Soroka
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/21/2016 03:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote:
> >>> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
> 
> 
>  On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> > Hello Everyone
> >
> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in
> getting
> > the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers
> that
> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to
> collect
> > this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >
> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the
> Community
> > Development wiki (see link below)
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+
> Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> >
> >
> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at
> the
> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
> 
>  It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>  registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>  "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>  numbers around that.
> >>>
> >>> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be
> possible to
> >>> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?
> >>
> >> Sure, if that's our definition of "active". Likewise, if "commit" is our
> >> definition of "active", that seems easy too. I tend to think that
> >> "active" is a bit more complex, but either one of those would give us a
> >> good first estimate.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> >> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/21/2016 08:32 AM, A. Soroka wrote:
> Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely not 
> going to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we recently 
> elected an excellent committer who has never made a single commit. Instead we 
> elected him to recognize his fantastic involvement with the community 
> answering questions and helping new users.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a future 
> move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined against stats 
> from the mailing lists for that project?
> 

Yes, this was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating. Probably would
need to combine mlist + commit + tickets + ... other stuff? Some
communities have active contributors who spend their time answering
questions on IRC, G+, Facebook, StackOverflow, etc.

--Rich



> ---
> A. Soroka
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/2016 03:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote:
>>> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:


 On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> Hello Everyone
>
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
> Development wiki (see link below)
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>
>
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.

 It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
 registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
 "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
 numbers around that.
>>>
>>> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be possible to
>>> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?
>>
>> Sure, if that's our definition of "active". Likewise, if "commit" is our
>> definition of "active", that seems easy too. I tend to think that
>> "active" is a bit more complex, but either one of those would give us a
>> good first estimate.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
>> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>>
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[A. Soroka]

Not to say that this isn't a good first step, but that is definitely not going 
to capture a lot of important engagement. At Apache Jena we recently elected an 
excellent committer who has never made a single commit. Instead we elected him 
to recognize his fantastic involvement with the community answering questions 
and helping new users.

I'm not sure what to do about that (measurement-wise) but perhaps as a future 
move, the base list of committers for a project could be joined against stats 
from the mailing lists for that project?

---
A. Soroka

> On Dec 21, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/21/2016 03:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote:
>> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
 Hello Everyone
 
 A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
 the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
 responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
 this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
 
 I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
 Development wiki (see link below)
 
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
 
 
 In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
 time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>> 
>>> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>>> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>>> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>>> numbers around that.
>> 
>> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be possible to
>> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?
> 
> Sure, if that's our definition of "active". Likewise, if "commit" is our
> definition of "active", that seems easy too. I tend to think that
> "active" is a bit more complex, but either one of those would give us a
> good first estimate.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> 


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Pierre Smits]

Not everything is going through LDAP. There are still a lot of solutions in
place that are not hooked up to LDAP. Biggest examples: Confluence, Jira.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM 
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk"  wrote:

> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> >> Hello Everyone
> >>
> >> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
> >> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
> >> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
> >> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >>
> >> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
> >> Development wiki (see link below)
> >>
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+
> Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> >>
> >>
> >> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
> >> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
> >
> > It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
> > registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
> > "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
> > numbers around that.
>
> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be possible to
> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?
>
> >
> > Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
> > actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
> >
> >> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
> >> permission to share or from quote their comments.
> >>
> >> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
> >> main ones as follows:
> >>
> >> 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
> >
> > I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
> > that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.
> >
> > Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
> > diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
> > with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."
> >
> > So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
> > overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.
> >
> >
> >> 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
> >> 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
> >> 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
> >>
> >> Next steps will be:
> >>
> >>  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
> >>Community Development related actions
> >>  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
> >>see if they will result in additional actions
> >>  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
> >>into diversity strategy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/21/2016 03:09 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote:
> On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>>> Hello Everyone
>>>
>>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>>> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>>> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>>>
>>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>>> Development wiki (see link below)
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>>>
>>>
>>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>
>> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>> numbers around that.
> 
> Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be possible to
> get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?

Sure, if that's our definition of "active". Likewise, if "commit" is our
definition of "active", that seems easy too. I tend to think that
"active" is a bit more complex, but either one of those would give us a
good first estimate.


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ulrich Stärk]

On Tue, December 20, 2016 17:11, Rich Bowen wrote:
>
>
> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>> Hello Everyone
>>
>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>>
>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>> Development wiki (see link below)
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>>
>>
>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
> numbers around that.

Since everything these days is going through LDAP it should be possible to
get e.g. last login timestamp. Maybe reach out to infra?

>
> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
>
>> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
>> permission to share or from quote their comments.
>>
>> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
>> main ones as follows:
>>
>> 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>
> I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
> that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.
>
> Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
> diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
> with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."
>
> So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
> overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.
>
>
>> 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>> 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>> 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
>>
>> Next steps will be:
>>
>>  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
>>Community Development related actions
>>  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
>>see if they will result in additional actions
>>  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
>>into diversity strategy
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
>



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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Jacob Champion]

On 12/20/2016 09:51 PM, Alex Harui wrote:

I (and maybe others) want to eliminate the argument that the response rate
was too low to be used to draw conclusions.


I agree; this was one of my first thoughts when I saw the survey 
response rate.


--Jacob


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Alex Harui]

On 12/20/16, 6:47 PM, "Matthew Sacks"  wrote:

>Alex, what does this have anything to do with diversity?

I (and maybe others) want to eliminate the argument that the response rate
was too low to be used to draw conclusions.  See [1].

Thinking about this more, we might also want to factor in any committer
who sent an email on an ASF mailing list.  Maybe JIRA as well?  That would
give us a rough number of folks on committers@ who are active.  Sure,
someone who wouldn't be considered active under this criteria could have
still filled out the survey, but it seems like as good a number as any.


Just a thought,
-Alex

[1] https://www.surveygizmo.com/survey-blog/survey-response-rates/

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Matthew Sacks]

Alex, what does this have anything to do with diversity?

I think the main point here is Sharan's survey results and what that data
means for the ASF and its future.

To me it shows a great deal of opportunity to expand the influence of the
ASF in it's general rol of software stewardship, and policy as well.

The data shows to me an opportunity to include and outreach, which is key
to the ASF's survival (corporate donations come and go, commmitters, the
best ones [Chairs, Board Members, and Members] are selected from the
community of committers based on their Merit; one of the core principles I
have learned from my brief time being involved in the ASF starting back in
2008 or so.

With all of the puffery out of the way, myself included, let's focus now on
*including* the people listed in the survey who want to make a
contribution. Now that we have the data we can include the folks who seem
misrepresented or under-represented in the ASF.

Additionally, I believe it imperative to use *our own software (Mahout -
machine learning) to better identify such candidates using Machine learning
software from the ASF. If our own software cannot solve this problem, a
survey should not have been taken in the first place.

-M



On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 6:30 PM Alex Harui  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On 12/20/16, 8:11 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>
> >> Hello Everyone
>
> >>
>
> >> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>
> >> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>
> >> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>
> >> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>
> >>
>
> >> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>
> >> Development wiki (see link below)
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversit
>
> >>y+Survey+-+2016
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>
> >> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
> >
>
> >It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>
> >registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>
> >"inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>
> >numbers around that.
>
> >
>
> >Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
>
> >actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
>
>
>
> How hard would it be to generate the count of all apache ids that
>
> committed to any ASF repo in the last N months?
>
>
>
> -Alex
>
>
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[William A Rowe Jr]

I have the awk scripts to do that all against svn logs.

Since the introduction of git-based projects, either as a submission
mechanism or primary tool, it becomes much less comprehensive.


On Dec 20, 2016 20:44, "Daniel Gruno"  wrote:

> On 12/21/2016 03:30 AM, Alex Harui wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/20/16, 8:11 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> >>> Hello Everyone
> >>>
> >>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
> >>> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
> >>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
> >>> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >>>
> >>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
> >>> Development wiki (see link below)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+
> Committer+Diversit
> >>> y+Survey+-+2016
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
> >>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
> >>
> >> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
> >> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
> >> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
> >> numbers around that.
> >>
> >> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
> >> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
> >
> > How hard would it be to generate the count of all apache ids that
> > committed to any ASF repo in the last N months?
>
> We have access to that, both on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly
> basis :)
>
> Question then is, how many of the active ones filled out the survey, and
> how many inactive. Maybe next time we'll have a "when did you last
> contribute to an ASF project" question :)
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> >
> > -Alex
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Daniel Gruno]

On 12/21/2016 03:30 AM, Alex Harui wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/20/16, 8:11 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>>> Hello Everyone
>>>
>>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>>> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>>> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>>>
>>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>>> Development wiki (see link below)
>>>
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversit
>>> y+Survey+-+2016
>>>
>>>
>>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>
>> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>> numbers around that.
>>
>> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
>> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
> 
> How hard would it be to generate the count of all apache ids that
> committed to any ASF repo in the last N months?

We have access to that, both on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly
basis :)

Question then is, how many of the active ones filled out the survey, and
how many inactive. Maybe next time we'll have a "when did you last
contribute to an ASF project" question :)

With regards,
Daniel.

> 
> -Alex
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Alex Harui]

On 12/20/16, 8:11 AM, "Rich Bowen"  wrote:

>
>
>On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>> Hello Everyone
>> 
>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>> 
>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>> Development wiki (see link below)
>> 
>> 
>>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversit
>>y+Survey+-+2016
>> 
>> 
>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
>It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>"inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>numbers around that.
>
>Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
>actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.

How hard would it be to generate the count of all apache ids that
committed to any ASF repo in the last N months?

-Alex

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Karen Bryant]

Unscribe

From: Pierre Smits 
Sent: 20 December 2016 17:01:15
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

My apologies for leaving out:

[1]
https://s3.amazonaws.com/files-dist/AnnualReports/ASFAnnualReport-FY2015-2016FINAL.pdf

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Pierre Smits 
wrote:

> I, for one, thank Sharan for the itch she scratched, and compliment her on
> the result.
>
> Many talk politics (sharing their viewpoint) here in this thread, and
> elsewhere in this community. If that is the itch that needs to be
> scratched, then that is fine by me too...
>
> But in the near future (when all has been digested) we must move on. The
> first survey is a good start. But it should not be the end. How can we
> improve community development when we don't measure regularly.  Coming to
> the data collected has been (to me, sharing my viewpoint, divulging my
> politics) a feel good exercise: discussions in public up front (to get
> buy-in, to please the majority, the ones regarded as important, etc.)
> followed by defending the why afterwards (and elsewhere).
>
> So, to cut to the chase: who of the officers the ASF will sponsor the
> next? Who will step up and say: 'I will have the executors back and you
> (the executor) can concentrate on the tasks at hand without being
> distracted'?
>
> Annually the ASF put in a lot of effort to provide the greater community
> (3rd parties, sponsors, friends, however you want to call them) with an
> Annual Report [1]. This kind of repeated activity belongs in the set of
> means to provide insights in the Community (Development) section.'
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>> > Hello Everyone
>> >
>> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>> > the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>> > this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>> >
>> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>> > Development wiki (see link below)
>> >
>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Commi
>> tter+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>> >
>> >
>> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>
>> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>> numbers around that.
>>
>> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
>> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
>>
>> > We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
>> > permission to share or from quote their comments.
>> >
>> > I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
>> > main ones as follows:
>> >
>> > 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>
>> I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
>> that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.
>>
>> Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
>> diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
>> with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."
>>
>> So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
>> overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.
>>
>>
>> > 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>> > 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>> > 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
>> >
>> > Next steps will be:
>> >
>> >  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
>> >Community Development related actions
>> >  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
>> >see if they will result in additional actions
>> >  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
>> >into diversity strategy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
>> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>>
>>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Pierre Smits]

My apologies for leaving out:

[1]
https://s3.amazonaws.com/files-dist/AnnualReports/ASFAnnualReport-FY2015-2016FINAL.pdf

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM 
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Pierre Smits 
wrote:

> I, for one, thank Sharan for the itch she scratched, and compliment her on
> the result.
>
> Many talk politics (sharing their viewpoint) here in this thread, and
> elsewhere in this community. If that is the itch that needs to be
> scratched, then that is fine by me too...
>
> But in the near future (when all has been digested) we must move on. The
> first survey is a good start. But it should not be the end. How can we
> improve community development when we don't measure regularly.  Coming to
> the data collected has been (to me, sharing my viewpoint, divulging my
> politics) a feel good exercise: discussions in public up front (to get
> buy-in, to please the majority, the ones regarded as important, etc.)
> followed by defending the why afterwards (and elsewhere).
>
> So, to cut to the chase: who of the officers the ASF will sponsor the
> next? Who will step up and say: 'I will have the executors back and you
> (the executor) can concentrate on the tasks at hand without being
> distracted'?
>
> Annually the ASF put in a lot of effort to provide the greater community
> (3rd parties, sponsors, friends, however you want to call them) with an
> Annual Report [1]. This kind of repeated activity belongs in the set of
> means to provide insights in the Community (Development) section.'
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM 
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
>> > Hello Everyone
>> >
>> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
>> > the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
>> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
>> > this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>> >
>> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
>> > Development wiki (see link below)
>> >
>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Commi
>> tter+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>> >
>> >
>> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
>> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>
>> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
>> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
>> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
>> numbers around that.
>>
>> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
>> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
>>
>> > We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
>> > permission to share or from quote their comments.
>> >
>> > I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
>> > main ones as follows:
>> >
>> > 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>
>> I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
>> that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.
>>
>> Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
>> diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
>> with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."
>>
>> So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
>> overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.
>>
>>
>> > 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>> > 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>> > 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
>> >
>> > Next steps will be:
>> >
>> >  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
>> >Community Development related actions
>> >  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
>> >see if they will result in additional actions
>> >  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
>> >into diversity strategy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
>> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>>
>>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Pierre Smits]

I, for one, thank Sharan for the itch she scratched, and compliment her on
the result.

Many talk politics (sharing their viewpoint) here in this thread, and
elsewhere in this community. If that is the itch that needs to be
scratched, then that is fine by me too...

But in the near future (when all has been digested) we must move on. The
first survey is a good start. But it should not be the end. How can we
improve community development when we don't measure regularly.  Coming to
the data collected has been (to me, sharing my viewpoint, divulging my
politics) a feel good exercise: discussions in public up front (to get
buy-in, to please the majority, the ones regarded as important, etc.)
followed by defending the why afterwards (and elsewhere).

So, to cut to the chase: who of the officers the ASF will sponsor the next?
Who will step up and say: 'I will have the executors back and you (the
executor) can concentrate on the tasks at hand without being distracted'?

Annually the ASF put in a lot of effort to provide the greater community
(3rd parties, sponsors, friends, however you want to call them) with an
Annual Report [1]. This kind of repeated activity belongs in the set of
means to provide insights in the Community (Development) section.'

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM 
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> > Hello Everyone
> >
> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
> > the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
> > this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >
> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
> > Development wiki (see link below)
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+
> Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> >
> >
> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
> It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
> registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
> "inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
> numbers around that.
>
> Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
> actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.
>
> > We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
> > permission to share or from quote their comments.
> >
> > I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
> > main ones as follows:
> >
> > 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>
> I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
> that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.
>
> Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
> diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
> with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."
>
> So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
> overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.
>
>
> > 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
> > 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
> > 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
> >
> > Next steps will be:
> >
> >  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
> >Community Development related actions
> >  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
> >see if they will result in additional actions
> >  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
> >into diversity strategy
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/19/2016 08:36 AM, Sharan F wrote:
> Hello Everyone
> 
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting
> the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that
> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect
> this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> 
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community
> Development wiki (see link below)
> 
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> 
> 
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the
> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.

It would be useful to pursue Niclas' assertion that most of our
registered committers are inactive. I'd think that if we define
"inactive" in some measurable way, we could determine some actual
numbers around that.

Either way, though, given how anti-survey we have been in the past, 13%
actually sounds like a pretty good response rate to me.

> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their
> permission to share or from quote their comments.
> 
> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the
> main ones as follows:
> 
> 1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF

I look forward to seeing these. I hope that we have some things in there
that are actionable, and that we can find volunteers to participate in.

Most of the conversations that I've had with people that have led
diversity efforts in other open source communities answer "what worked?"
with "lots and lots of hard work, for a really long time."

So, thanks so much for getting this process started again. It's long
overdue, and we appreciate your hard work here.


> 2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
> 3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
> 4. Feedback and ideas around diversity
> 
> Next steps will be:
> 
>  * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
>Community Development related actions
>  * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
>see if they will result in additional actions
>  * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
>into diversity strategy




-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/19/2016 11:39 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 2. Are there similar surveys available for say Linux Kernel, Debian or
> GNU/FSF (i.e. other low-visibility, highly technical FOSS projects) ??

Bitergia did one for the Linux Kernel:

https://blog.bitergia.com/2016/10/11/gender-diversity-analysis-of-the-linux-kernel-technical-contributions/

Daniel presented some of this data in his talk at ApacheCon in Seville
last month.

Debian has a Debian Women project - https://www.debian.org/women/ - and
I believe they've done a number of studies over the years, but I can't
find any of that data right now. However, I do know who to ask.

The FSF participates in a number of diversity outreach programs,
including Outreachy and their internship program.

PHP Women - https://phpwomen.org/ - and PyLadies -
http://www.pyladies.com/ - have been leading the charge on this for a
decade. WomenInLinux - http://www.womeninlinux.com/ - are creating
opportunities with scholarships and internships.

I feel like the questions here should be, why are we *so* far behind the
crowd? Why do we appear not to care about something that has been shown
to increase community participation, attract more kids, and build the
next generation of our community?

It seems to me that the ASF *should have* been on the leading edge of
this wave, not struggling to catch up. This is not politics. This is
making free software more mainstream - something that we're supposed to
be good at. We pride ourselves at being "business friendly" but act as
though actual progress in that direction is "politics".

And we're really only at the "find out" stage of things, and the
brodudes like this Peter character are already climbing out of their
caves to shout down even looking into the situation. It all makes me
ask, in genuine perplexity, what is so appealing about the monoculture
status quo that these folks want to cling to it so hard?

So, back to the point.

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016

Sharan has put together some info. This is science, not politics. She
got a response from a statistically significant percentage of our
community - even more if you take Niclas' assertion ("Most of the
registered committers have been inactive for years") at face value. This
is good solid hard data.

Not politics.

Thanks, Sharan, for your work. What do you view as our next steps? How
can we help?

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/19/2016 11:39 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 3. The survey was targeted at committers. Shouldn't we also find out who
> "uses" our software. After all, by-and-large, we attract our committers
> from our users ("who has an itch to scratch"). That is a primary point of
> "conversion" and if the selection pool is not much different from the stats
> that you have now collected... (yes, speculation) ... does that mean we are
> done? It is also much harder to reach that group.

Yes, that would be awesome. And, you're right, they're harder to reach,
primarily because we really don't know who they are.

Do you envision doing a survey per project (perhaps using the users@
lists?) or are you thinking of doing a Foundation-wide survey? That
would be quite an ambitious undertaking. Let me know how I can help you
in this effort.

--Rich

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Rich Bowen]

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm finding deep, deep irony in the
signature quote you chose to append to your message.


On 12/19/2016 05:45 PM, Peter West wrote:

> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce 
> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
> 
> —
> Peter West
> p...@pbw.id.au
> “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

Peter, you can choose to spend your so-called "scarce resources" how you
like, and get the hell out of the way and let other people spend their
resources how they like.

I would recommend, for example, that you spend a little of your scarce
resources reading the discussion that's been going on, on this list, for
the last several months, rather than asking insulting questions that
have been thoroughly answered, repeatedly, with good hard sciencey answers.

Sharan is doing good hard work here that is for the benefit of the
long-term viability of the Foundation. If you don't want to participate
in that effort, you know where the door is.


> 
>> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Everyone
>>
>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
>> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this 
>> information and see what it tells us about our committer base. 
>>
>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
>> Development wiki (see link below)
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>>
>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
>> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.  
>>
>> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
>> to share or from quote their comments.
>>
>> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
>> ones as follows:
>>  • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>  • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>>  • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>>  • Feedback and ideas around diversity
>> Next steps will be:
>>  • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
>> Community Development related actions 
>>  • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
>> see if they will result in additional actions
>>  • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
>> diversity strategy
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>>
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon



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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Matthew Sacks]

Perhaps because it’s future depends on it?

> On Dec 19, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce 
> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
> 
> —
> Peter West
> p...@pbw.id.au 
> “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
> 
>> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Everyone
>> 
>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
>> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this 
>> information and see what it tells us about our committer base. 
>> 
>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
>> Development wiki (see link below)
>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>> 
>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
>> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.  
>> 
>> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
>> to share or from quote their comments.
>> 
>> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
>> ones as follows:
>>  • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>  • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>>  • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>>  • Feedback and ideas around diversity
>> Next steps will be:
>>  • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
>> Community Development related actions 
>>  • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
>> see if they will result in additional actions
>>  • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
>> diversity strategy
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org 
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org 
> 

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ignasi Barrera]

Let me just mention something said up-thread, about the ASF being about
voluntary software... It is, but is even more about communities. One of the
most important core values of the ASF is "community over code". Communities
come first, and the ASF, as a foundation, just sets the principles on top
of which communities should be developed. It does not take part on nor
control the software they produce. It is just the output of healthy
communities that happen to produce software.

Those that understand the ASF and why community over code is important will
probably agree that understanding the nature of our communities is an
important factor in determining how healthy they are and how the
foundation, as a whole, can do better to improve them. And itself.
Diversity is key in that regard, and this is the right list to develop this
kind of efforts.


On Dec 20, 2016 8:10 AM, "Karlie Parks"  wrote:

> sharon deer someone needs to take your temperature,
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 19, 2016, at 10:39 PM, Niclas Hedhman  wrote:
>
> Shawn,
> maybe, just maybe, the twitter-activists will spot this and descend on the
> ASF with vengeance, realizing that the Apache License (and all software
> that uses it) is sexist, racist and bigoted, since it doesn't prevent
> sexists, racists and other haters from using our software. And WE, the
> ASF,  do nothing about that. WE are on the side of the haters. This is the
> logic that is applied elsewhere.
> That is one of the fears _I_ have about digging in this. It is like
> searching for patents...
>
> And YES, I am on the side of free usage of the software we produce, even by
> people I am diametrically opposed to. I think it is not ASF's mission to
> determine that line in the sand. All this is a political issue, disguised
> with a "it is good for us" label, and many here look at the label and go
> "Yeah, I favor that."
>
> I hope I am wrong about ASF ending up being a target by the outside SJW
> activists, that we are too small to bother with. But let it be known, it
> has now been a predicted possibility... so don't be shocked if it happens.
>
> Sharan,
> About the numbers;
> 1. Most of the registered committers have been inactive for years, many
> have never been active in the past and was part of a bulk inclusion of
> committers via a podling coming in.
>
> 2. Are there similar surveys available for say Linux Kernel, Debian or
> GNU/FSF (i.e. other low-visibility, highly technical FOSS projects) ??
>
> 3. The survey was targeted at committers. Shouldn't we also find out who
> "uses" our software. After all, by-and-large, we attract our committers
> from our users ("who has an itch to scratch"). That is a primary point of
> "conversion" and if the selection pool is not much different from the stats
> that you have now collected... (yes, speculation) ... does that mean we are
> done? It is also much harder to reach that group.
>
> 4. When will the scrubbed raw data be available for the community?
>
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Shawn McKinney 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> >>
> >> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put
> > his or her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all
> of
> > the BS that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the
> impulse
> > of petty totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on
> others,
> > and to marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely.
> > Need I mention Brendan Eich here?
> >>
> >> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue
> > whatever other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and
> > those big software houses with their diversity departments will
> accomodate
> > you at work.
> >
> > Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks
> > Sharon) that provides insight into the types of people that participate.
> > If that info can then be put into use and expands our committer base
> beyond
> > the typical into the atypical we would then produce more/better software.
> > What’s wrong with that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe
> > I’m just being naive?
> >
> > Shawn
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Karlie Parks]

sharon deer someone needs to take your temperature,

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 19, 2016, at 10:39 PM, Niclas Hedhman  wrote:

Shawn,
maybe, just maybe, the twitter-activists will spot this and descend on the
ASF with vengeance, realizing that the Apache License (and all software
that uses it) is sexist, racist and bigoted, since it doesn't prevent
sexists, racists and other haters from using our software. And WE, the
ASF,  do nothing about that. WE are on the side of the haters. This is the
logic that is applied elsewhere.
That is one of the fears _I_ have about digging in this. It is like
searching for patents...

And YES, I am on the side of free usage of the software we produce, even by
people I am diametrically opposed to. I think it is not ASF's mission to
determine that line in the sand. All this is a political issue, disguised
with a "it is good for us" label, and many here look at the label and go
"Yeah, I favor that."

I hope I am wrong about ASF ending up being a target by the outside SJW
activists, that we are too small to bother with. But let it be known, it
has now been a predicted possibility... so don't be shocked if it happens.

Sharan,
About the numbers;
1. Most of the registered committers have been inactive for years, many
have never been active in the past and was part of a bulk inclusion of
committers via a podling coming in.

2. Are there similar surveys available for say Linux Kernel, Debian or
GNU/FSF (i.e. other low-visibility, highly technical FOSS projects) ??

3. The survey was targeted at committers. Shouldn't we also find out who
"uses" our software. After all, by-and-large, we attract our committers
from our users ("who has an itch to scratch"). That is a primary point of
"conversion" and if the selection pool is not much different from the stats
that you have now collected... (yes, speculation) ... does that mean we are
done? It is also much harder to reach that group.

4. When will the scrubbed raw data be available for the community?


Cheers
Niclas


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Shawn McKinney 
wrote:

> 
>> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
>> 
>> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put
> his or her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of
> the BS that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse
> of petty totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others,
> and to marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely.
> Need I mention Brendan Eich here?
>> 
>> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue
> whatever other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and
> those big software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate
> you at work.
> 
> Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks
> Sharon) that provides insight into the types of people that participate.
> If that info can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond
> the typical into the atypical we would then produce more/better software.
> What’s wrong with that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe
> I’m just being naive?
> 
> Shawn
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org


-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java

-
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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Karlie Parks]

yes, you are just being naive shawn how insightful of you darling

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 19, 2016, at 9:45 PM, Shawn McKinney  wrote:


> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
> her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS 
> that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
> totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
> marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
> mention Brendan Eich here?
> 
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
> other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
> software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.

Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks Sharon) 
that provides insight into the types of people that participate.  If that info 
can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond the typical into 
the atypical we would then produce more/better software.  What’s wrong with 
that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe I’m just being naive?

Shawn
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org


-
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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Niclas Hedhman]

Shawn,
maybe, just maybe, the twitter-activists will spot this and descend on the
ASF with vengeance, realizing that the Apache License (and all software
that uses it) is sexist, racist and bigoted, since it doesn't prevent
sexists, racists and other haters from using our software. And WE, the
ASF,  do nothing about that. WE are on the side of the haters. This is the
logic that is applied elsewhere.
That is one of the fears _I_ have about digging in this. It is like
searching for patents...

And YES, I am on the side of free usage of the software we produce, even by
people I am diametrically opposed to. I think it is not ASF's mission to
determine that line in the sand. All this is a political issue, disguised
with a "it is good for us" label, and many here look at the label and go
"Yeah, I favor that."

I hope I am wrong about ASF ending up being a target by the outside SJW
activists, that we are too small to bother with. But let it be known, it
has now been a predicted possibility... so don't be shocked if it happens.

Sharan,
About the numbers;
1. Most of the registered committers have been inactive for years, many
have never been active in the past and was part of a bulk inclusion of
committers via a podling coming in.

2. Are there similar surveys available for say Linux Kernel, Debian or
GNU/FSF (i.e. other low-visibility, highly technical FOSS projects) ??

3. The survey was targeted at committers. Shouldn't we also find out who
"uses" our software. After all, by-and-large, we attract our committers
from our users ("who has an itch to scratch"). That is a primary point of
"conversion" and if the selection pool is not much different from the stats
that you have now collected... (yes, speculation) ... does that mean we are
done? It is also much harder to reach that group.

4. When will the scrubbed raw data be available for the community?


Cheers
Niclas


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Shawn McKinney 
wrote:

>
> > On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> >
> > The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put
> his or her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of
> the BS that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse
> of petty totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others,
> and to marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely.
> Need I mention Brendan Eich here?
> >
> > So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue
> whatever other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and
> those big software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate
> you at work.
>
> Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks
> Sharon) that provides insight into the types of people that participate.
> If that info can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond
> the typical into the atypical we would then produce more/better software.
> What’s wrong with that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe
> I’m just being naive?
>
> Shawn
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ross Gardler]

I say "don't feed the troll".

Those who feel this is important should carry. Those with other views need not 
participate.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: Shawn McKinney 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 7:45:43 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey


> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
>
> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
> her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS 
> that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
> totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
> marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
> mention Brendan Eich here?
>
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
> other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
> software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.

Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks Sharon) 
that provides insight into the types of people that participate.  If that info 
can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond the typical into 
the atypical we would then produce more/better software.  What’s wrong with 
that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe I’m just being naive?

Shawn
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Shawn McKinney]

> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
> her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS 
> that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
> totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
> marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
> mention Brendan Eich here?
> 
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
> other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
> software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.

Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks Sharon) 
that provides insight into the types of people that participate.  If that info 
can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond the typical into 
the atypical we would then produce more/better software.  What’s wrong with 
that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe I’m just being naive?

Shawn
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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ted Dunning]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:

> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his
> or her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the
> BS that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of
> petty totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and
> to marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I
> mention Brendan Eich here?
>


Peter,

Please refrain from characterizing people like me as petty totalitarians
just because I like to find out why ASF doesn't attract a representative
sample of the population of computer scientists. I am not trying to
marginalize or denigrate, but you, on the other hand, are clearly being
pretty insulting.


>
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue
> whatever other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and
> those big software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate
> you at work.
>

I am very tempted to be really rude here.

Let me just say that I am not trying to impose anything on you and trying
to understand what brings people to Apache and what keeps them away is a
key step in community building.

I suppose that I should add that your attitude is illuminating on the
problem of what keeps people away.

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[George Percivall]

Optimum software development is dependent upon requisite variety
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)#The_Law_of_Requisite_Variety
 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)#The_Law_of_Requisite_Variety>
(Starting with Ashby 1956 and onward)



> On Dec 19, 2016, at 9:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> Ross,
> 
> There are any number of ways to express your concerns about whatever, but the 
> ASF is about voluntary software.  Anyone can, and does write software that 
> goes into ASF products.  A big part of the attraction is the absence of all 
> of the BS that accompanies working in larger companies in the ways and on the 
> projects that the companies determine.
> 
> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
> her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS 
> that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
> totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
> marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
> mention Brendan Eich here?
> 
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
> other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
> software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.
> 
> Peter
> 
>> On 20 Dec 2016, at 8:53 am, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>> 
>> The ASF is a volunteer run organization. We have volunteers who care. They 
>> are volunteering their scarce resources to help address an issue that many 
>> (myself included) feel is important.
>> 
>> You may disagree with the importance but since nobody requires or expects 
>> your participation that’s just fine.
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> From: Peter West
>> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:46 PM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey
>> 
>> This is one of the first messages you've received from p...@pbw.id.au. Learn 
>> how we recognize email senders at 
>> http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification
>> 
>> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce 
>> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
>> 
>> —
>> Peter West
>> p...@pbw.id.au
>> “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
>> 
>>> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone
>>> 
>>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
>>> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
>>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this 
>>> information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>>> 
>>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
>>> Development wiki (see link below)
>>> 
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FASF%2BCommitter%2BDiversity%2BSurvey%2B-%2B2016&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Caa934e1c336845786ff508d42860d25e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636177843696193690&sdata=yQ9va4jFjLut0u64HpyzOkM0r8JycGjB7Wl7O7XHExE%3D&reserved=0
>>> 
>>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the 
>>> time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>>> 
>>> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
>>> to share or from quote their comments.
>>> 
>>> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the 
>>> main ones as follows:
>>>  • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>>  • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>>>  • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>>>  • Feedback and ideas around diversity
>>> Next steps will be:
>>>  • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
>>> Community Development related actions
>>>  • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
>>> see if they will result in additional actions
>>>  • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate 
>>> into diversity strategy
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 
> 
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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Peter West]

Ross,

There are any number of ways to express your concerns about whatever, but the 
ASF is about voluntary software.  Anyone can, and does write software that goes 
into ASF products.  A big part of the attraction is the absence of all of the 
BS that accompanies working in larger companies in the ways and on the projects 
that the companies determine.

The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS that 
accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
mention Brendan Eich here?

So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.

Peter

> On 20 Dec 2016, at 8:53 am, Ross Gardler  wrote:
> 
> The ASF is a volunteer run organization. We have volunteers who care. They 
> are volunteering their scarce resources to help address an issue that many 
> (myself included) feel is important.
>  
> You may disagree with the importance but since nobody requires or expects 
> your participation that’s just fine.
>  
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>  
> From: Peter West
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:46 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey
>  
> This is one of the first messages you've received from p...@pbw.id.au. Learn 
> how we recognize email senders at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification
> 
> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce 
> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
> 
> —
> Peter West
> p...@pbw.id.au
> “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
> 
> > On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Everyone
> >
> > A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
> > Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
> > responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this 
> > information and see what it tells us about our committer base.
> >
> > I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
> > Development wiki (see link below)
> >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FASF%2BCommitter%2BDiversity%2BSurvey%2B-%2B2016&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Caa934e1c336845786ff508d42860d25e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636177843696193690&sdata=yQ9va4jFjLut0u64HpyzOkM0r8JycGjB7Wl7O7XHExE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the 
> > time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
> >
> > We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
> > to share or from quote their comments.
> >
> > I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the 
> > main ones as follows:
> >   • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
> >   • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
> >   • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
> >   • Feedback and ideas around diversity
> > Next steps will be:
> >   • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
> > Community Development related actions
> >   • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
> > see if they will result in additional actions
> >   • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate 
> > into diversity strategy
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> >
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ted Dunning]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Peter West  wrote:

> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce
> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
>


These are volunteer resources. They are not your resources. They aren't the
ASF's resources.

Why does ASF spend scarce resources on incubating new projects? Or
developing code?

If a volunteer has an itch let them get on with scratching it!

Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Daniel Ruggeri]

As with ANY organization, diversity is very important for all sorts of reasons. 
Diversity of thought challenges the status quo. Diversity of perspective 
encourages a different way of looking at things. Diversity of history and 
motivation brings together different REASONS to move forward. Diversity of 
knowledge breeds mentoring and growth for both the teacher and the learner. 
Diversity, simply put, keeps a group from becoming a closed off echo chamber 
where ideation and innovation is stifled. A lack of diversity within the ranks 
of committers and contributors shows potential weaknesses that we, as a 
community when considering why diversity is valuable, should WANT to understand 
and consciously decide if it does represent a problem.

The ASF powers much of the software that makes the tech world turn. This alone 
is an awesome responsibility and one that the community which supports the 
communities (comdev, namely) has to be aware of. To me, the scope of our "work" 
becomes an amplification factor for the importance of diversity.

I know I am mostly a lurker on these lists, but the diversity discussion is 
particularly near and dear to some of us... especially those sensitive to the 
general lack of representation of women in technology (which I'll point out the 
data shows to be our greatest disparity in participation). As folks generally 
driven by data and hard facts, I guess I'd like to take this opportunity to 
raise the REALLY hard questions. The numbers seem to indicate we do, indeed, 
have some strong disparities (gender and race). Do we think this is a problem? 
If so, how do we address it?
-- 
Daniel Ruggeri


 Original Message 
From: Peter West 
Sent: December 19, 2016 4:45:49 PM CST
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce resources 
being devoted to it? Seriously.

—
Peter West
p...@pbw.id.au
“I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone
> 
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that responded 
> to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this information 
> and see what it tells us about our committer base. 
> 
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
> Development wiki (see link below)
> 
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> 
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.  
> 
> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
> to share or from quote their comments.
> 
> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
> ones as follows:
>   • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>   • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>   • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>   • Feedback and ideas around diversity
> Next steps will be:
>   • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
> Community Development related actions 
>   • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
> see if they will result in additional actions
>   • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
> diversity strategy
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 
> 


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Dave Fisher]

The ASF is a volunteer organization of individual people. Some volunteers 
choose to spend their efforts on how the ASF might make our communities better.

This is the community development group and the correct place for individuals 
to "scratch that itch". This ought to be a safe conflict free place for that 
exploration.

If your time is scarce then please feel free to ignore this thread.

All the best,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 19, 2016, at 4:45 PM, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce 
> resources being devoted to it? Seriously.
> 
> —
> Peter West
> p...@pbw.id.au
> “I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
> 
>> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Everyone
>> 
>> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
>> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
>> responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this 
>> information and see what it tells us about our committer base. 
>> 
>> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
>> Development wiki (see link below)
>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>> 
>> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
>> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.  
>> 
>> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
>> to share or from quote their comments.
>> 
>> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
>> ones as follows:
>>• Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>>• Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>>• Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>>• Feedback and ideas around diversity
>> Next steps will be:
>>• Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
>> Community Development related actions 
>>• Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to see 
>> if they will result in additional actions
>>• Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
>> diversity strategy
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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> 


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RE: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ross Gardler]

The ASF is a volunteer run organization. We have volunteers who care. They are 
volunteering their scarce resources to help address an issue that many (myself 
included) feel is important.



You may disagree with the importance but since nobody requires or expects your 
participation that’s just fine.



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Peter West<mailto:p...@pbw.id.au>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:46 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey



This is one of the first messages you've received from p...@pbw.id.au. Learn 
how we recognize email senders at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification

Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce resources 
being devoted to it? Seriously.

—
Peter West
p...@pbw.id.au
“I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone
>
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that responded 
> to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this information 
> and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
> Development wiki (see link below)
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FASF%2BCommitter%2BDiversity%2BSurvey%2B-%2B2016&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Caa934e1c336845786ff508d42860d25e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636177843696193690&sdata=yQ9va4jFjLut0u64HpyzOkM0r8JycGjB7Wl7O7XHExE%3D&reserved=0
>
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
> to share or from quote their comments.
>
> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
> ones as follows:
>   • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>   • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>   • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>   • Feedback and ideas around diversity
> Next steps will be:
>   • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
> Community Development related actions
>   • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
> see if they will result in additional actions
>   • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
> diversity strategy
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Peter West]

Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce resources 
being devoted to it? Seriously.

—
Peter West
p...@pbw.id.au
“I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone
> 
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that responded 
> to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this information 
> and see what it tells us about our committer base. 
> 
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
> Development wiki (see link below)
> 
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> 
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.  
> 
> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
> to share or from quote their comments.
> 
> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
> ones as follows:
>   • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>   • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>   • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>   • Feedback and ideas around diversity
> Next steps will be:
>   • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
> Community Development related actions 
>   • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
> see if they will result in additional actions
>   • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
> diversity strategy
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 
> 


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Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Sharan F]

Hello Everyone

A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting 
the Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that 
responded to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect 
this information and see what it tells us about our committer base.


I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
Development wiki (see link below)


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016

In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the 
time the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.


We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their 
permission to share or from quote their comments.


I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the 
main ones as follows:


1. Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
2. Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
3. Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
4. Feedback and ideas around diversity

Next steps will be:

 * Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential
   Community Development related actions
 * Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to
   see if they will result in additional actions
 * Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate
   into diversity strategy

Thanks
Sharan