Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On 1 September 2005 23:36, Ain Vagula wrote: On 9/1/05, Ivo Hinkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jonathon, Jonathon Blake wrote: iv) String context. The English word can be translated two or more ways in the target language. [OOo 1.0.0 through 1.1.4 French has some interesting examples of the English being incorrectly translated.] This is a common problem in string based translation, any suggestion how to solve this ? We had a talk with David about this some time ago, I believe he is working on it. Of course, we could make corrections by hand but this breaks version management inside translation team. We could make all strings unique, but this makes translation files huge... I dont wanna see 500 times in one file strings 'Syntax' and 'Example' :) I come to think that this accreting of similars may be of more harm than help. The absolute overhead is about 4K strings in interface proper. There are 25K strings total (helpcontent not included) and accreted POTs Pavel publishes stand at 21K. Straightforwardly, 4K strings is (by my extrapolation) about 8 man-hours of translating work. If it can be organized to flow uninterrupted, of course. And uninterrupted flow suggests context ready at hand. Not searching in helpcontent, not hunting in program sources. (When doing my own translation, I had to resort to all of this, sometimes even to look into German counterparts of English terms :) Then, there are specific-knowledge terms which translator may or may not be familiar with. E. g., financial, statistical and mathematical terms in spreadsheet module, which, obviously, have to be translated *accurately*. And while de-accreting things like ``Syntax'' may be wasteful, there are lots of seemingly easy terms which fork when translated. And, after all, there are such things as kbabel's rough translation, which can fill in similars automatically and fairly quick, leaving to translator only task of confirmation/unconfirmation. As a side note: Opera folks address problem of having context info by adding extensive comments in their plaintext language file. This is comparatively recent practice but of help nonetheless. -regards - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On 9/2/05, Yury Tarasievich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 September 2005 23:36, Ain Vagula wrote: On 9/1/05, Ivo Hinkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jonathon, Jonathon Blake wrote: iv) String context. The English word can be translated two or more ways in the target language. [OOo 1.0.0 through 1.1.4 French has some interesting examples of the English being incorrectly translated.] This is a common problem in string based translation, any suggestion how to solve this ? We had a talk with David about this some time ago, I believe he is working on it. Of course, we could make corrections by hand but this breaks version management inside translation team. We could make all strings unique, but this makes translation files huge... I dont wanna see 500 times in one file strings 'Syntax' and 'Example' :) I come to think that this accreting of similars may be of more harm than help. The absolute overhead is about 4K strings in interface proper. There are 25K strings total (helpcontent not included) and accreted POTs Pavel publishes stand at 21K. Straightforwardly, 4K strings is (by my extrapolation) about 8 man-hours of translating work. If it can be organized to flow uninterrupted, of course. And uninterrupted flow suggests context ready at hand. Not searching in helpcontent, not hunting in program sources. (When doing my own translation, I had to resort to all of this, sometimes even to look into German counterparts of English terms :) Yes, I know, I'm moving myself too to CVS version of translate-tools, but for 2.0 it is too late. These repeating strings are fortunately short, but they need much attention. I created separate tree today, with unique kde-style id-s for repeating strings, in old tree I have 57620 strings, 12388 untranslated, in new tree 68760 vs. 26440, was some thousands more, I have done some work too. Feels like some weeks hard work. -- Ain Vagula - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ivo, all, Ivo Hinkelmann wrote: | Dwayne and Alberto, I do not get the point. Can you be a bit more | specific _why_ OOo is such a wall for translation teams ? You may or may I have one of the simplest languages to create (en_GB) and I've found the whole process dauntingly complex. There are lots of resources and pages and links telling how to do it, but nowhere is there a step-by-step guide for _all_ the steps, including extras, images, wizard templates etc. And then there is the complexity of building and testing. Without Pavel's help I think I would have given up - setting up a Linux build was not trivial; I spent personal cash on setting up a Windows build environment only to find it is now obsolete and I can no longer build OOo for Windows; forget about Mac or Solaris ... And then once it's translated, just getting it into the system so that it is available to the public... For someone starting on the task the whole process is confusingly complex. | One part of this wall is the pure amount of strings you have to | translate, so this is far away from a 2 weekends work. I hope to see a Sure the sheer number of strings to translate is a problem - but worse is the fact that many of them are really quite poorly worded and without the context it's not possible to be sure what is meant. The only way is to find the string in context within the application - and that is not easy to do. That's the grumble, but the up-side is the fact that in OOo we do have a business quality office suite that can be translated and already supports many languages. This is something I applaud and like many others have been willing to go through the pain of localisation in order to achieve success. Let's not stop here though - making the whole process much easier and more immediate is vital. What I'd like to see is a quick and easy way to build a language pack (including all extras, templates, graphics, help and other bits) on my platform of choice, and this language pack easily added to OOo on any platform it runs on. This would make the task of checking and testing much easier and more immediate. David. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDFriagH46HTEjeiURAn3xAJsEMdDnhlBHDZxILMI3UtJJbyReuQCffVuZ 54HALheDw2KJbelgf7e0Vlc= =wD+U -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Alberto, On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 21:34:02 +0200, Alberto Escudero-Pascual wrote: I will love to hear about i18n framework, ICU, locale etc but I want you to reserve one single slide examining why OpenOffice.org is still a WALL for many localization teams. I think diving into this would be slightly off-topic for what I planned, the main obstacles in creating new localizations lie in the dependency on the build process and that without building the resource files in a source tree, localization isn't possible. Eike, send me the presentation, I will check for that slide. Can't send you a presentation because it isn't ready yet.. Eike P.S.: Please consider to subscribe to the mailing lists you're posting to. By doing so you won't miss replies that are directed to the list only. When answering, please reply only to the list (Reply-To header is set), not to my personal account. Thanks. -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
[snip] I think diving into this would be slightly off-topic for what I planned, the main obstacles in creating new localizations lie in the dependency on the build process and that without building the resource files in a source tree, localization isn't possible. I hope that someone else address at least some of it though. P.S.: Please consider to subscribe to the mailing lists you're posting to. By doing so you won't miss replies that are directed to the list only. When answering, please reply only to the list (Reply-To header is set), not to my personal account. Thanks. ? I am subscribed [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am not aware of missing any reply I did ONLY Reply to the list I did NOT send you mail to your personal account regarding this topic. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
[snip] I think diving into this would be slightly off-topic for what I planned, the main obstacles in creating new localizations lie in the dependency on the build process and that without building the resource files in a source tree, localization isn't possible. There are some more suggestions in this thread of what can be other obstacles. I am sure that our feedback is appreciated and hopefully considered :) Eike, send me the presentation, I will check for that slide. Can't send you a presentation because it isn't ready yet.. Eike P.S.: Please consider to subscribe to the mailing lists you're posting to. By doing so you won't miss replies that are directed to the list only. When answering, please reply only to the list (Reply-To header is set), not to my personal account. Thanks. ??? Eike, thanks for the advice but i am subscribed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and i am not aware of sending you any personal mail regarding this. Now, you really lost me. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Alberto, we should move this discussion in a seperate thread, it does not have anything to do what Eike adress in his presentation @OOOCon ;) Alberto Escudero-Pascual wrote: Hi Ivo, Thanks for you answer. First of all I want to clarify that is not a pure simplistic critic to the OOo 2.0 way and any of you... let's take it from there. I get the sense that everyone gets a bit defensive (including me:) when we discuss the dark sides and it does not help. I don't understand. What dark sides we have discussed and what do not happend? Localizing OOo should be as simple as localizing Skype or Google!. If we I agree, but remember in OOo are a lot of more strings than What do you want to search today? and a Search Button. We have a bunch off different resource types ( res files , officecfg , readme , help ... ) [...] For example, posting a one line patch that could be already in the source from the beginning can take 15 minutes see below ( -Include as many L ) ...downloading a build system three/four days. see below Some quick suggestions... - Integrate online PO translation in OpenOffice.org, if you do not like Pootle create something else. Our curent resource system is not yet able to handle WYSIWYG translation. Solving this would also reduce the download / build times. This already has been adressed but we have not yet a solution for that. - Include as many languages as possible by default in the source code limiting the number of patches to submit. This sounds somehow strange to me. This imply we know all languages that will be included in the near future or include ALL languages that are spoken on this planet. The Ethnologue from 1996 knows 8717 languages, 400 of them are already dead. Then you have a factor for dialects and/or different regions. This will consume 5 years of Eike,Ivo,Pavel's life to integrate all known locales, patches , etc... You need several months to translate those 25 (?) strings and 4* 15 minutes for patch creation is to much? - Create a good OOo 2.0 glossary including IT terms and definitions Pavel created a script that filters all words that occur 4 times or more often in the translation. Does that meet your requirements ? David also mentioned that they currently test a poconflict tool, that detects different translated words. Is there realy a need for such glossary if you use a po based translation memory system? - Include or encourage the inclusion of localization toolkits and guides with every OpenOffice.org release. In the released binary or within the source code? I am not sure if it make sense to couple them but may be a download, unpack and ready to translate package reduce some stress from collecting all needed things. - Create a template webpage(s) to submit patches for localization issues ONLY. Like enter iso code here and your ms-id in the next text column ? I could image a demo patch, but everything is documentated in Javiers docu. Those patches are not equal, there are too many dependencies ( CTL yes/no, has msid yes/no, win98 relased language yes/no, ... ). I think there is no way arround reading this document, because you must know what you do. Maybe the main difference in our points is that I am thinking in what is left to do. No flames to you as you are mostly thinking in keeping the thing rolling... I do not rate this as a flame, I just want to point out that we have to discuss things. We all want to improve this process. And yes there is a lot of work left! btw you can verify that your message has been send into the mailinglist here: http://l10n.openoffice.org/servlets/SummarizeList?listName=dev Cheers, Ivo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Jonathon, Jonathon Blake wrote: Ivo wrote: specific _why_ OOo is such a wall for translation teams ? i) The number of files that are required to be translated; ii) The number of strings that are required to be translated; Those two point can not be avoided in my point of view. iii) The lack of a comprehensive and complete OOo glossary, with definitions as used within OOo. Please see my answer in Alberto's mail iv) String context. The English word can be translated two or more ways in the target language. [OOo 1.0.0 through 1.1.4 French has some interesting examples of the English being incorrectly translated.] This is a common problem in string based translation, any suggestion how to solve this ? v) Converting the material to be translated into a format that the translation tools that a team is familiar with can use. IMHO there is a bunch of formats supported now ? sdf, xliff, po, ... What is your preferend format ? QA for translations can not be done by running one or two tools. It requires several people to read everything two or three times, to catch the types, mis-translations and other errors. I can not give an answer because I am not familar with QA xan jonathon Cheers, Ivo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On 9/1/05, Ivo Hinkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jonathon, Jonathon Blake wrote: iv) String context. The English word can be translated two or more ways in the target language. [OOo 1.0.0 through 1.1.4 French has some interesting examples of the English being incorrectly translated.] This is a common problem in string based translation, any suggestion how to solve this ? We had a talk with David about this some time ago, I believe he is working on it. Of course, we could make corrections by hand but this breaks version management inside translation team. We could make all strings unique, but this makes translation files huge... I dont wanna see 500 times in one file strings 'Syntax' and 'Example' :) v) Converting the material to be translated into a format that the translation tools that a team is familiar with can use. IMHO there is a bunch of formats supported now ? sdf, xliff, po, ... What is your preferend format ? Translation sources are regenerated with every milestone (about 2 times in week) and made available in sdf and pot (po-template) format by i10n team (Pavel). QA for translations can not be done by running one or two tools. It requires several people to read everything two or three times, to catch the types, mis-translations and other errors. I can not give an answer because I am not familar with QA I cannot imagine such a tools, exept spellchecker what we are using by translation. When particular language hasn't advanced tools for context sensitive and syntax checking, this means it has them not - equal which methods team uses for translation work. Ain Vagula - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Ivo wrote: This imply we know all languages that will be included in the near future or include ALL languages that are spoken on this planet. I _think_ the suggestion was that language and locale data be included, not the User Interface. [IOW, one could select a locale of Zulu-ZA or Zulu-SW, rather than have to select Afrikaans, or English(ZA) as the locale. Or for languages one could select Xhosa, rather than the current user1 option. (And I doubt that I am the only person who thinks it is bizarre to have the user interface in a language that I can't select as option for writing in.)] Including all 8 717 languages that ethnologue knows about does require a couple of things to happen. i) Walk thru the existing code base, and replace the non-unicode string library calls with unicode string library calls; ii) Walk thru the code base, and change all string calls to _one_ format, instead of the current ten or so formats that are used; iii) Hve OOo recognize all Unicode characters, not just those in Plane 0; [These require nothing more than grunt work, doable by anybody that can fluently read code, and knows how to write good code.] Including all those languages can make for some interesting marketing. Pavel created a script that filters all words that occur 4 times or more often in the translation. Does that meet your requirements ? That would be step one. Step two is a list of all words used in the User Interface, along with the definition, and how it is used within OOo. Is there realy a need for such glossary if you use a po based translation memory system? Yes. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Ivo wrote: i) The number of files that are required to be translated; ii) The number of strings that are required to be translated; Those two point can not be avoided in my point of view. True. I _think_ that translation memory will make the wall a little smaller. iv) String context. The English word can be translated two or more This is a common problem in string based translation, any suggestion how to solve this ? A glossary that defines every word used in the User Interface. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On 9/2/05, Jonathon Blake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ivo wrote: i) The number of files that are required to be translated; ii) The number of strings that are required to be translated; Those two point can not be avoided in my point of view. True. I _think_ that translation memory will make the wall a little smaller. But we use translation memory. When we started with 2.0, David has genereated po files from existing 1.1.3 translation, I've read them into KBabels translation memory, merged to 2.0 and had about 70% from GUI translated in 10 minutes. It is also possible to use eg. KDE and KOffice message base, when there are no earlier OO.o translations. -- Ain Vagula - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 22:42 +0200, Pavel Janík wrote: From: Dwayne Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:23:26 +0200 I care why its like that but I care more about how we can change that. We can count correctly ;-) Have a look at http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?issue_id=49130+49478+50179+50987+52465+52646+52754+52758+52804+52814+52824+52841+52855+52856+52857+52878+52880+52882+52891+52900+52906+52911+52917+52918+52921+52943+52944+52964+52965+52989+53014+53015+53016+53019+53020+53021+53022+53028+53029+53030+53152+53186+53248+53367+53379+53381+53475+53497+53541+53738+53760+53803+53836 And there I thought you were going to send me an exciting list. Nope its the same old same old in that list. If I hadn't got a lot of South African languages in there would be very little show. For an idea of how the figures were done. Counted languages in localize files ie languages that actually exist. Group cooperative groups eg Translate.org.za and some of the Indic languages. Do that and I'm afraid you arrive at low figures. This is the list of issues in latest l10n CVS. And there are at least another 10 languages not merged (will be done for 2.0.1). That is better news. But it still means its not in 2.0 :( and it still means we're a long long way from anything particularly radical. If we were adding 25 languages then I'd get shivers up my spine! -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi , Dwayne and Alberto, I do not get the point. Can you be a bit more specific _why_ OOo is such a wall for translation teams ? You may or may not remember how to localize the 1.x.x branches and how the process have been improved. If there is still a learning curve, sure it is a complex and huge project, but a lot of people are already worked and still working on it make it more comfortable. In my opinion the OOo 2.0 way, download the po file and start translation / touching 3 - 4 code code sections to add the new language / create a new locale, is no longer rocket engineering nor needs a master degree in computer science. One part of this wall is the pure amount of strings you have to translate, so this is far away from a 2 weekends work. I hope to see a lot of finnished localisation in the 2.x tree. Did you ever heard about any other Office Suite translated in Khmer, Gujarati or Mossi ? Any suggestions, ideas and improvements are welcome! Cheers, Ivo Dwayne Bailey wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 22:42 +0200, Pavel Janík wrote: From: Dwayne Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:23:26 +0200 I care why its like that but I care more about how we can change that. We can count correctly ;-) Have a look at http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?issue_id=49130+49478+50179+50987+52465+52646+52754+52758+52804+52814+52824+52841+52855+52856+52857+52878+52880+52882+52891+52900+52906+52911+52917+52918+52921+52943+52944+52964+52965+52989+53014+53015+53016+53019+53020+53021+53022+53028+53029+53030+53152+53186+53248+53367+53379+53381+53475+53497+53541+53738+53760+53803+53836 And there I thought you were going to send me an exciting list. Nope its the same old same old in that list. If I hadn't got a lot of South African languages in there would be very little show. For an idea of how the figures were done. Counted languages in localize files ie languages that actually exist. Group cooperative groups eg Translate.org.za and some of the Indic languages. Do that and I'm afraid you arrive at low figures. This is the list of issues in latest l10n CVS. And there are at least another 10 languages not merged (will be done for 2.0.1). That is better news. But it still means its not in 2.0 :( and it still means we're a long long way from anything particularly radical. If we were adding 25 languages then I'd get shivers up my spine! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Jonathon, QA for translations can not be done by running one or two tools. It requires several people to read everything two or three times, to catch the types, mis-translations and other errors. You are right. It takes time and resource a lot and requires an organized team. http://www.transwift.net/pukiwikiooopukiwiki/?JapaneseTranslationIssues Yesterday, we found that acknowledged was mistranslated, and filed an issue. :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
From: Dwayne Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:23:26 +0200 I care why its like that but I care more about how we can change that. We can count correctly ;-) Have a look at http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?issue_id=49130+49478+50179+50987+52465+52646+52754+52758+52804+52814+52824+52841+52855+52856+52857+52878+52880+52882+52891+52900+52906+52911+52917+52918+52921+52943+52944+52964+52965+52989+53014+53015+53016+53019+53020+53021+53022+53028+53029+53030+53152+53186+53248+53367+53379+53381+53475+53497+53541+53738+53760+53803+53836 This is the list of issues in latest l10n CVS. And there are at least another 10 languages not merged (will be done for 2.0.1). -- Pavel Janík How the h*ll did you happen to actually notice this? -- Linus Torvalds in linux-kernel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Eike, I think that the future could be an interesting issue. What is in stock for the future of i18n and l10n in OOo (ICU 3.4, CLDR locales, etc...). Javier Eike Rathke wrote: Hi developers, On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 14:46:47 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote: So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Really nothing? Eike - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Eike, Today at 15:28, Eike Rathke wrote: I'd be interested in more stuff such as multilingual spell-checking support, Hum? What do you mean by multilingual there? Eg. combined English and Serbian (since they use different scripts, i.e. Latin and Cyrillic, one can automatically choose between the two and use proper dictionary). support for different date/time formats [read: genitive for Slavic languages] etc. This is already on my list. Great! I hope you'll be providing us with slides and maybe even a video of your talk :) Cheers, Danilo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Danilo, On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 18:09:57 +0200, Danilo ??egan wrote: I'd be interested in more stuff such as multilingual spell-checking support, Hum? What do you mean by multilingual there? Eg. combined English and Serbian (since they use different scripts, i.e. Latin and Cyrillic, one can automatically choose between the two and use proper dictionary). I wouldn't call that an i18n feature though.. it's more on the application level, and your's is quite a special case, to distinguish between different languages of the same script type you'd still need some user interaction assigning language attributes. support for different date/time formats [read: genitive for Slavic languages] etc. This is already on my list. Great! I hope you'll be providing us with slides and maybe even a video of your talk :) Slides will of course be available, for video I don't know about the equipment at Koper, but AFAIR there were some webcasts or so mentioned. Don't know if that holds. Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 14:48 +0700, Javier SOLA wrote: Eike, I think that the future could be an interesting issue. What is in stock for the future of i18n and l10n in OOo (ICU 3.4, CLDR locales, etc...). I would like to hear but won't be there. The technical issues that would be involved in, or why we can't: * Making function names optionally localizable in Calc * Live translation such as Gettext files * Allowing another language to appear as tooltips. So you can see the English if something was badly translated. * How we integrate Pootle into the localisation process ;) Javier Eike Rathke wrote: Hi developers, On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 14:46:47 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote: So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Really nothing? Eike - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Eike et al, Unfortunately I will not be able to attend OOoCon but i have been following this thread with great interest. If i get the chance to attend the next OOoCon I will be happy giving a presentation titled Why OpenOffice.org has NOT been localized to 100 languages :-) I think that if we want to see OOo localization take off we need to understand why is moving as such as slow pace. I will love to hear about i18n framework, ICU, locale etc but I want you to reserve one single slide examining why OpenOffice.org is still a WALL for many localization teams. I will love to see 100 languages in OpenOffice.org very soon and I am currently fighting to see some cash-flow to make it happen :-) but I am sure that you agree that OpenOffice.org is far from being a easy project to localize. I take the chance to thank you, Ivo, Pavel, ... for coping with my learning curve in the last months. Eike, send me the presentation, I will check for that slide. Alberto Escudero-Pascual Hi, I started preparing my OOoCon presentation i18n for l10n, here follows what I sent in as an abstract: The presentation will talk about the internationalization of the OpenOffice.org application suite, internationalization that enables the software to run with different localizations, hence the title i18n for l10n. The presentation will not cover the steps of localization and translation. Planned coverage is an overview of the history of the i18n framework and its API, why it is there, what it does, how it developed, how it interfaces with other components, for example the ICU (International Components for Unicode), its relation with the CLDR (Common Locale Data Repository), and how it is used by the applications. I'll focus on how to add data and features for new locales, extensibility and difficulties. Current obstacles and problems, ideas how to solve them and other plans will give an outlook on what can be done in the near and not so near future. Depending on the audience there will be a more or less extensive QA session at the end. Since it is not possible to cover all aspects in a 30-40 minutes presentation, I'll gather topics and opinions on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list during preparation to hopefully be able to satisfy the needs. So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Eike - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi developers, On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 14:46:47 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote: So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Really nothing? Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Eike Rathke wrote: Hi developers, On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 14:46:47 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote: So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Really nothing? I'd definitely have suggestions but I'm not going to be there :-( David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi David, On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 17:38:37 +0200, David Fraser wrote: I'd definitely have suggestions but I'm not going to be there :-( Oh, I thought you'd come. Anyway, what would you suggest? Maybe read the mail I just wrote as a reply to Kazunari first.. Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Kazunari, On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 01:23:57 +0900, Kazunari Hirano wrote: i18n for l10n Good title. Thanks. I was thinking of changing it to the full variant internationalization for localization to make it clear to everybody, also to people outside of this list.. the history of the i18n framework and its API why it is there what it does how it developed how it interfaces with other components how it is used by the applications how to add data and features for new locales These topics are all interesting and a lot enough already :) Well, sure, but I didn't plan to elaborate too deeply on history and such things, just mention them for a better understanding of why things are how they are. Also all the interfacing/usage things shouldn't go too much into details. Better to concentrate on the current situation, how to work with what is currently present, and ToDos. extensibility and difficulties Current obstacles and problems ideas how to solve them other plans what can be done in the near and not so near future These topics are also all interesting and it may take a full day to complete your lecture :) I know, the main problem is to sketch as much as possible to give an overview but do not get too technically detailed. This again can lead to a situation where an overview is done in a few minutes, I'm exaggerating here of course. I don't want to end up with a presentation that lasts only 20 minutes, though I doubt I would, but just in case it did I'm looking for the spot of interest I could focus on if this happens. Just that I need to know such topic in advance, now that I'm preparing, and not only when I realize that I would need it.. I have 3 questions: 1. How do you implement features of CTL and RTL languages? 2. How many localization are you planning to support? 3. Are there any language OpenOffice.org could never support? :) #1 will probably not be answered due to insufficient knowledge of the lecturer ;-) no, really, I'm absolutely not a glyph layout expert. Thanks for your input. Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi, I think I know one answer: Kazunari Hirano wrote: 2. How many localization are you planning to support? As much as possible! Cheers, Ivo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Eike, http://l10n.openoffice.org/i18n_framework/cldr/LocaleDataAudit_OOo_CLDR.html I love to look at this big page. Why are you listing 107 locales on this page? http://www.unicode.org/cldr/version/1.3.html CLDR Version 1.3 contains data for 296 locales: 96 languages and 130 territories. Does this mean OpenOffice.org could support 96 languages if these data are added to OpenOffice.org and if there are people who want to localize it with those languages and really work for the localization? How about languages which are not listed on CLDR? Thanks, khirano - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi Ivo, Thanks :) 2. How many localization are you planning to support? As much as possible! Yey! Let us plan then. Here is one of my favorite site: http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/ It says, Currently, we have 1056 languages listed. We have products available for 788 languages. Can we plan: OOo Releases: number of languages supported OpenOffice.org2.0: 15 OpenOffice.org3.0: 30 OpenOffice.org4.0: 100 OpenOffice.org5.0: 200 OpenOffice.org6.0: 300 OpenOffice.org7.0: 400 OpenOffice.org8.0: 500 OpenOffice.org9.0: 600 OpenOffice.org10.0: 700 ? http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=53727 :) Thanks, khirano - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Kazunari wrote: 3. Are there any language OpenOffice.org could never support? a) The phrase Writing systems is more accurate, than the word language. b) Assuming that one has the fonts, there are work around for _every_ awkward writing system. Not pretty, and definitely not what I would recommend for somebody who created/edited documents in them on a daily basis. OTOH, even the workarounds are better than nothing. c) Never is a really bad phrase to use, because somebody might decide that the writing the code is interesting/challenging/whatever. Sun, or other companies do not consider it to be cost-effective to consider including code in their software, to correctly/easily handle the writing systems. All that said, here is a short list of languages and writing systems that fall into that list: i) Mongolian using the Mongolian Writing System. This one is awkward, because it is a modified form of Arabic, but written vertically, not horizontally. ] ii) Boustrophedon writing systems The biggest issue here is writing code that wraps lines correctly. [This can be faked in OOo, by creating L2R paragraph style, and a R2L paragraph style, then hitting return at the end of each line. Needless to say, any paragraph reformatting is a major PITA.] iii) Rongo-Rongo. The issue here is that alternate lines face 180 degrees to each other. This workaround here is to use CALC, for writing your documents.] iv) Languages whose line is neither vertical, nor horizontal. There are half a dozen or so of them, but I've forgotten their names. [I'm not talking about the languages in _Gulliver's Travel's_ though they share that attribute. ] The basic issue is alignment. Even if code that correctly handled all of those was contributed, there is no reason to expect that it will be included in OOo, for the simple reason that such code would turn OOo into a desktop publishing program, and as such is to be rejected. *** Those issues would have to be fixed, prior to OOo being distributed with a User Interface in a language that uses one of those writing systems. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Kazunari wrote: Does this mean OpenOffice.org could support 96 languages if these data By Jan 2005, there had been announcements of intent to translate OOo 2.0 into 100 languages. Not all those teams carried through with their announcement. [OOo is probably the worst project to tackle, if the team has no translation experience.] On a semi-related note, does anybody know when pootle.openoffice.org will be up and running? xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[l10n-dev] OOoCon presentation: i18n for l10n
Hi, I started preparing my OOoCon presentation i18n for l10n, here follows what I sent in as an abstract: The presentation will talk about the internationalization of the OpenOffice.org application suite, internationalization that enables the software to run with different localizations, hence the title i18n for l10n. The presentation will not cover the steps of localization and translation. Planned coverage is an overview of the history of the i18n framework and its API, why it is there, what it does, how it developed, how it interfaces with other components, for example the ICU (International Components for Unicode), its relation with the CLDR (Common Locale Data Repository), and how it is used by the applications. I'll focus on how to add data and features for new locales, extensibility and difficulties. Current obstacles and problems, ideas how to solve them and other plans will give an outlook on what can be done in the near and not so near future. Depending on the audience there will be a more or less extensive QA session at the end. Since it is not possible to cover all aspects in a 30-40 minutes presentation, I'll gather topics and opinions on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list during preparation to hopefully be able to satisfy the needs. So my question now is: in addition to a general overview, what would people like me to focus on? Bear in mind that a relatively short presentation session can't offer a complete how-to, nor can it be something like a workshop. But we can try to insert some lecture-style 15 minutes or so. Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter bedevilled I18N transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD: 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
