Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi Steven, Steven Pauwels wrote: Please do not mistake that trying to have a sensible discussion about [...] But I have seen very strange reactions to only giving an oppinion. And that is why I did not do anything anymore but try to get people to react in order to have an idea why this list goes wrong when a post about fundamentals to markerting is made. [...] Do not comment unless you want to contribute to obtaining a result. As for now, I may not have done the major part of he work here, but I sure asked many times if there was anything I could do. And than came reactions from others that it is not clear at all what should be done. My reaction was straight forward. However rather short, so you may have missed it between the rather verbose other replys ;-) I do not claim to know everything, but what I do know is what needs to be done to get marketing for OOo not only a 'einzel' effort. As do others I met here. [...] I have no doubt about that. However, as you pointed out yourselve, I rather start in the center. t.i. international strategy. I did not (intend to) suggest to stay in the center. It is an inportant meeting point. What matters more, is what will give you the feeling that you are more productive? 1) We do have a SMP. It is needeed, possibly can be improved. But does it stimulate people to do more? I doubt. 2) From the SMP follows a list of to-do's, more or less important, more or less urgent. 3) The recently set up Wiki is a very good step indeed to make things more visible - I suppose the to-do's list is anchored in the SMP. 4) Then there are two things left: - the project leads help people with questions, so that they can find the place where their need/contribution fitts in the to-do's; - the project leads ask (on this and maybe other lists) for resources if it is desireble that a task (from the to-do's) is done. And then the circle is complete. Writing new marketing plans or improving the current SMP might be usefull. However, IMO it's rather silly not (as well) to : - inform the press about the OOo MacTel aplha build, - inform our contacts about the good things that 2.0.2 will deliver shortly, - improve the documentation or make new, - organize user meetings, - work on a nice Dutch OOo CD (I've seen a little bit of the CD from the German NLproject, and that's a very inspiring example!), - and so on and so on. I foresee (and that's not so difficult) that a new plan will nót make 'all stand up as one to do the good work'. You've seen this list go wrong, as you write. So be aware. Kind regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Ian Lynch wrote: I don't know that market, others will have to answer. I do know that in the market I am in "discovering" space invaders embedded in spreadsheets will make it difficult to get OOo into some of the schools. If its not a big issue one way or another to you perhaps you will have concern for my efforts in my market. At the primary school whre my two young children go, EE are not an issue either. They have full internet acces in the classes. And are educated on how to use a computer. And there is social control/watch: children look at each others behaviour. Main issues for OOo there: - not known enough; - fear that document exchange will give problems; - Ms market share and techniques. Besides that, Ms Office costs only very little for primary school in The Netherlands. Also (mentioned by others IIRC - as known I did not spell this thread) the EE in OOo are quite boring compared to what internet, PC-games and spel consoles offer our youth. I've not yet looked in the section where educational stuff is offered, but are there some nice educational games/progs offered, neatly integrated with the possibilities of OOo? Never mind: if you are realy sure that putting enery in EE is worth more than doing something else, I won't block that. In that sence my statment "I don't" was a bit to rough. Sorry for that. But I gues I've made clear what my real objections are. Kind regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi all, just to mention it... Jonathon Blake schrieb: On 09/02/06, J David Eisenberg wrote: Having a fork seems a bit excessive. There are a number of other reasons to fork OOo now, rather than later. This is *not* a marketing issue - if you want to fork, nobody will be able to hold you (and I'm sure, that you know of all of it's problems) So start a new thread on discuss@openoffice.org (or on [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you think it to be appropriate there). Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On 09/02/06, J David Eisenberg wrote: > Having a fork seems a bit excessive. There are a number of other reasons to fork OOo now, rather than later. The only real question is when will OOo fork. Not if it forks. [Indeed, a case can be made that it has already forked twice. And this is without counting the companies that have "customized" it for their own rebranding.] > which are 99.44% identical -- a very expensive proposition indeed. For the first major release of the fork, as much as 95% of the code identical. Two or three major releases later, and the only reason that more than 75% of the code is identical, is because it has been added into OOo. # Easter eggs are only one of half a dozen things in OOo that add bloat, but not functionality, that would be gutted. I'll skip the enhancements that would be added, since the OOo developers have steadfastly maintained that OOo will _never_ incorporate them, since they are features that "nobody" would ever use. xan jonathon -- Ethical conduct is a vice. Corrupt conduct is a virtue. Motto of Nacarima.
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Jonathon Blake wrote: > Charles wrote: > > > release a build without them and submit it in the CVS. That's the way it > > The best idea would be to fork OOo, to create an office suite that > focuses exclusively on teh corporate/educational market. [These two > markets have far more in common, than either have with the individual > user.] Having a fork seems a bit excessive. The often-suggested "administrator decides whether Easter Eggs get installed or not" would require additional code, but nowhere near the trouble of maintaining two separate versions which are 99.44% identical -- a very expensive proposition indeed. > xan > > jonathon > -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Charles wrote: > release a build without them and submit it in the CVS. That's the way it The best idea would be to fork OOo, to create an office suite that focuses exclusively on teh corporate/educational market. [These two markets have far more in common, than either have with the individual user.] xan jonathon
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi Steven, Steven Pauwels wrote: With dutch as my native language, I would like to contribute where I can. Even to the NL native language project. We have corresponded about that. I would expect the same thing from you on issues that matter to others. Can you please stick to constructive comment? If you do not care about the EEs in or out, do not join the discussion. Thank you for being coöperative Cor. I did contribute with a short, but not to misinterprete comment. Sorry you could not take it seriously. Furthermore I really wonder what happened, maybe I even should say 'went wrong'. Your entrance, about a week ago, was very nice, with something nice that can be used. After four or so posts with questions and remarks, as reaction to your banners, you seem to have a sort of lost your way. (Can be, it took myself many many months to have a little bit the feeling where what was going on in the community.) I did give a short advice on your request. Some others did. Then you wanted to take the whole marketing project onto your shoulders, bringing it to a higher level. OK, might be a bit ambitious, however reading some remarks about your background, there meight be some change for succes. But as days went by, I've seen a rappidly changing picture. Starting with contributing, ending up with mostly taking about what should be done, a/o how others should contribute. I do not take offend on that, however it's just not the way it works, IHO. So your future contributions at the Dutch-speaking language project, will indeed be welcomed. There's more than enough to do. Kind regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 23:02 +, Ian Lynch wrote: > > I think I put a slightly different slant on this. I entirely agree > that > > the open-source communities which work best are the do-ocracies, > those > > which value people according to what they contribute. By contribute, > I > > don't just mean posting to a mailing list, which can be just an > > ego-trip. I mean people who actually contribute code (if a > developer), > > translations (N-L), artwork (art project), collateral (on a > marketing > > list), etc. > > What about people who actually get mass take up? Eg someone who goes > into a company and persuades them to adopt the product? I guess this > is > more like sales but since marketing is the nearest we have to selling > I'd say that would be a useful contribution and it might not get > noticed. Ideally this would get posted to the list but it might not > for > a variety of reasons. Same is true of people who raise awareness in > their place of work. Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of work > that > goes on that might not be either noticed or understood but if it helps > get more users of OOo its of value to the project. Let me give an example - the work that Bob Kerr did on getting OOo into the public libraries here in Scotland. By itself, a useful piece of distribution. However, what made it much more valuable to the MP was the fact he took the trouble to write up a HOW-TO. This described what he had done, but more importantly he showed how to apply marketing cliches like "know your customer" in practice. His HOW-TO also got a good airing on the geek press. So, give your granny an OOo CD, you're a star; tell everyone on the MP how you got her to accept it and pass it to her friends, you're a superstar :-) John - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi Cor, Cor Nouws schreef: Hi Steven, Steven Pauwels wrote: With dutch as my native language, I would like to contribute where I can. Even to the NL native language project. We have corresponded about that. I would expect the same thing from you on issues that matter to others. Can you please stick to constructive comment? If you do not care about the EEs in or out, do not join the discussion. Thank you for being coöperative Cor. I did contribute with a short, but not to misinterprete comment. Sorry you could not take it seriously. Furthermore I really wonder what happened, maybe I even should say 'went wrong'. Your entrance, about a week ago, was very nice, with something nice that can be used. After four or so posts with questions and remarks, as reaction to your banners, you seem to have a sort of lost your way. (Can be, it took myself many many months to have a little bit the feeling where what was going on in the community.) I did give a short advice on your request. Some others did. Then you wanted to take the whole marketing project onto your shoulders, bringing it to a higher level. OK, might be a bit ambitious, however reading some remarks about your background, there meight be some change for succes. But as days went by, I've seen a rappidly changing picture. Starting with contributing, ending up with mostly taking about what should be done, a/o how others should contribute. Please do not mistake that trying to have a sensible discussion about issues that are important to not just me but to others to is not telling anybody what to do. If you want, I can make a website, a program, a banner, DTP for print or anything else that could be needed for marketing. But I have seen very strange reactions to only giving an oppinion. And that is why I did not do anything anymore but try to get people to react in order to have an idea why this list goes wrong when a post about fundamentals to markerting is made. I do not take offend on that, however it's just not the way it works, IHO. That is your oppinion Cor, you are entitled to have one. As am I. So if you do not agree, Do not comment unless you want to contribute to obtaining a result. As for now, I may not have done the major part of he work here, but I sure asked many times if there was anything I could do. And than came reactions from others that it is not clear at all what should be done. I do not claim to know everything, but what I do know is what needs to be done to get marketing for OOo not only a 'einzel' effort. As do others I met here. So your future contributions at the Dutch-speaking language project, will indeed be welcomed. There's more than enough to do. I have no doubt about that. However, as you pointed out yourselve, I rather start in the center. t.i. international strategy. Regards, Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi Cor, Cor Nouws schreef: Ian Lynch wrote: [...] So if we can agree that EEs are bad for marketing to schools and corporates, [...] I don't. I just left the playing-ground. [...] With dutch as my native language, I would like to contribute where I can. Even to the NL native language project. We have corresponded about that. I would expect the same thing from you on issues that matter to others. Can you please stick to constructive comment? If you do not care about the EEs in or out, do not join the discussion. Thank you for being coöperative Cor. Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 19:58 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: > As both professional developer and project leader/(primary) > customer-contact from 1998 (BTW working in an office-environment) I've > never ever seen a trace of any doubt of software because of EE's. > I've seen likes or some dislikes. Never any concerns. I don't know that market, others will have to answer. I do know that in the market I am in "discovering" space invaders embedded in spreadsheets will make it difficult to get OOo into some of the schools. If its not a big issue one way or another to you perhaps you will have concern for my efforts in my market. > (I even made a nice, simple EE myself, but that's completely off topic.) > Nor have my recent customers/ prospects ever asked any information in > this direction. > Questions about software being trustworthy and secure, are managed at a > different level and are about completely different issues. > That's 1. Trustworthy is not my concern, distraction is and will be of a significant number of my customers. Others might see trustworthy as more important in their markets. > The three major issues in marketing OOo are: > - people knowing the product > - the exchange with Ms documents. > - the interoperability with 3rd party software. > - The need for more documentation/examples, desires a strong fourth place. No argument but other factors can make or break it in particular markets. Why take unnecessary risks? > So being serious with marketing, I see there's a lot to do that matters > much much more. Yes I agree if its difficult to do which is why I said it needs a cost-benefit appraisal. If its easy to remove, just do it otherwise perhaps don't. > 7. > There have been some words about how the community works, or should work. > I know of several people in our (small) active Dutch-language community, > that rather spent time on actually promoting OOo, or making > documentation, or tools, than reading the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. It just is > not taken seriously, and seen as a waste of time. Well I tried to make a post to change that. Using this particualr thread as a focus. Maybe we can change things but not if we can never get agreement because people who have little interest in something argue about it for the sake of arguing. > So how should the outcome of discussions at [EMAIL PROTECTED] be taken into > account in the context of the broader community? > Take my own position. Is there any reason why actively contributing to > this discussion, should be nearby as useful as working on marketing and > prospects for my OOo/SO-based business? That is for you to decide. If your time is better spent there, spend it there. We can change the situation here but it will require some specific actions and cooperation. > The only reason I do participate a little, is a sort of hope, that > people might become inspired to take the step toward constructive > activities. Sorry, that was my intention. But I think strategy comes before detail and we need to get that strategy right first. > > I doubt in any discussion we will ever get unanimity so perhaps you > > might take that into account. > Of course. I saw a note of Sophie (IIRC) on others whose contribution > might be of interest. > However my suggestion would be: leave the topic, and find yourself some > nice jobs to do. And if you like a chat, go to a bar or so ;-) To me its a serious topic because it affects the market I'm in. I'm also trying to have a serious thread on management strategy but perhaps it is a lost cause. Worth a final try buut as I said there if no-one wants to change just keep up the status quo I have to go to work now so bye. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:23 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: > Ian Lynch wrote: > > [...] > > So if we can agree that EEs are bad for marketing to schools and > > corporates, [...] > > I don't. I just left the playing-ground. > > > [...] Not sure what this is supposed to mean? If you are not in agreement can you give some evidence based on experience otherwise as usual we will get to the end of a long discussion and achieve nothing. I doubt in any discussion we will ever get unanimity so perhaps you might take that into account. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi Tony, Tony Pursell schreef: Hi everyone I'm a refugee from the discuss list, hoping to get a more balanced view of EEs on this list. My background is in commercial software development where it would have been a serious disciplinary offence to put unauthorised code into programs. We were contracted to do what we were asked to do. No more, no less. If we had put an extra visible feature into a program it would have been bad enough. If a hidden feature had come to light, all hell would have broken loose. Why? Its because with an untested feature we would have not been able to guarantee the integrity of our program. The customer would have lost all faith in the company's ability to control the development of the system. And being in the market for government system, word would have travelled fast to our future sales prospects that we were untrustworth an ill-disciplined. So I have to say, remove the EEs. They will do us no credit if we want to get OOo into the all important corporate and government markets and reach that magical 'tipping point'. If you want to have pictures of developers, have a hyperlink from the About box to the OOo website. I.e. keep it an up front feature, not hidden. And also think about the image. I know that developers work best when casually dressed and like a pint or two of beer to unwind after a hard session of code cutting. But I never knew a programmer who didn't dress up a bit for the customers to create a good impression. And finally, if you want to provide 'extras', put them in the Custom install only, disabled by default. Thank you fir your contribution! Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Ian Lynch wrote: [...] So if we can agree that EEs are bad for marketing to schools and corporates, [...] I don't. I just left the playing-ground. [...] -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hello John, hello Finn, Note to Finn: I do agree with the definition of FOSS you pointed out. More comments inline. John McCreesh wrote: > >We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for >doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) > > Yes, you are absolutely right. My stance on developpers gave the impression that only developpers mattered. I'm sorry if I gave this impression: by developpers I did not mention the people who actually work and contribute their time to the project, and not just by posting to the lists. However, I also mean to say that the developpers tend to have the last word in FOSS projects, and this is something that history shows. Although they should listen to marketing, I wouldn't like them to be led by marketing only. I am basically a marketer although I don't give this impression :-) , and I know that marketing is not an exact science all too well. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 13:27 +0100, Steven Pauwels wrote: > Hi Tony, > > Tony Pursell schreef: A lot of sensible stuff from obvious relevant experience. > Thank you fir your contribution! So if we can agree that EEs are bad for marketing to schools and corporates, the question is what are the obstacles to removing them? This is where the developers will know what the implications are better than us. Technically how difficult is it to remove this code? If they say trivial, then I can't see any rational reason not to do it. If they say many man-years, we do have a problem because again its down to cost-benefit. Next step is for some contact with the developers from the Marketing Project Leadership to present a rational case based on marketing knowledge and experience. Evidence base: The Schools Lead says EEs provide no benefit and a potential marketing barrier in the schools market Volunteers with extensive experience in the corporate marketing world and in commercial software development say EEs are a significant problem when trying to get take up of OpenOffice.org in corporate environments. Regards, -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi everyone I'm a refugee from the discuss list, hoping to get a more balanced view of EEs on this list. My background is in commercial software development where it would have been a serious disciplinary offence to put unauthorised code into programs. We were contracted to do what we were asked to do. No more, no less. If we had put an extra visible feature into a program it would have been bad enough. If a hidden feature had come to light, all hell would have broken loose. Why? Its because with an untested feature we would have not been able to guarantee the integrity of our program. The customer would have lost all faith in the company's ability to control the development of the system. And being in the market for government system, word would have travelled fast to our future sales prospects that we were untrustworth an ill-disciplined. So I have to say, remove the EEs. They will do us no credit if we want to get OOo into the all important corporate and government markets and reach that magical 'tipping point'. If you want to have pictures of developers, have a hyperlink from the About box to the OOo website. I.e. keep it an up front feature, not hidden. And also think about the image. I know that developers work best when casually dressed and like a pint or two of beer to unwind after a hard session of code cutting. But I never knew a programmer who didn't dress up a bit for the customers to create a good impression. And finally, if you want to provide 'extras', put them in the Custom install only, disabled by default. Best Wishes Tony - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi John, John McCreesh schreef: [...] So I like to think of OOo as a community of different projects, each valuing their contributors according to how they contribute to that project's aims. I think it is entirely right e.g. for the MP to try and encourage developers to code what the market wants. We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) John IMHO you have a point to some extent. I do not like the noise either. But consider this. I do what I am doing here fore a living. I enter a business offices, ask millions of questions, find out the things employees, staff, board, are not happy with, look for signs I know by experience and try to contribute. My success depends on the amount of freedom the board gives me. Anyone may say anything about me or my actions, it is only information to me. So, every letter I type here, is an expensive one to me. I have some time now and I use it to contribute to OOo. In that time, I have convinced a few dozen people to at least try OOo, thus giving mee feedback from anoher side than the community. It is mainly positive. How does this fit in giving points? :) People may not like my style, but it is the way I will be able to contribute to the fullest of my experience. I would like to thank the members that are helping me out allready. I have only one intention: Turning OOo into a winning product. Steven P - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Daniel Carrera wrote: [big snip] In my post I wrote "cliche" where I meant "clique". I get those two words mixed up all the time, sorry. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://oooauthors.org /\/_/ http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ \/_/I am not over-weight, I am under-tall. / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 18:00 -0500, Daniel Carrera wrote: > John McCreesh wrote: > > So I like to think of OOo as a community of different projects, each > > valuing their contributors according to how they contribute to that > > project's aims. > > I understand that OOo was modeled after Apache, which is definitely a > group of largely independent projects. > > > We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for > > doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) > > That might be either a fantastic idea or a horrible one depending on who > gets to assign the points. I can see two extremes that are obviously bad: I think John was kidding - I hope so anyway! Any attempt to measure contribution is likely to be devisive because someone somewhere will feel under-valued. How do you compare someone who spends 300 hours copying and distributing OOo CDs with someone else that persuades a local government to switch to OOo? Or someone that helps someone else to do a specific job and doesn't generally publicise it? Someone rang me to-day and asked me for an OOo CD. Do I have to post every instance like this to the list to collect some points? And why would I want to collect these points anyway? In fact the Gold INGOT is a potential recognition for contributions since to achieve it one has to do 25 hours of useful community service in an Open Source project. But apart from some broad bench mark I would not try and quantify a contribution with any more precision as I don't believe it would be valid. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
John McCreesh wrote: So I like to think of OOo as a community of different projects, each valuing their contributors according to how they contribute to that project's aims. I understand that OOo was modeled after Apache, which is definitely a group of largely independent projects. We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) That might be either a fantastic idea or a horrible one depending on who gets to assign the points. I can see two extremes that are obviously bad: 1) One person, or a small cliche get to assign points. So the points would be little more than a list of so and so's favourite people. 2) Anyone at all can assign points. Inc. people who have no connection with thep roject. It's also important that the people who assign points also get points assigned to them and vice versa. Otherwise you just get a cliche. One idea is to say that people with the Observer status assign points to each other. I like your idea because it helps quantify where people's opinions lie. If you and I have a disagrement on list, it is likely that I will think that most people agree with me and you will think that most people agree with you. That's just human nature. Having an actual number may help. Of course, there are known problems with polls. For example, people with strongest opinions are most likely to vote, so you can get a biased sample. An example of this is the "Linux vs GNU/Linux" argument. In average, people who go for "GNU/Linux" feel more strongly about their choice, so they are over-represented in polls. But alas, some times a poll is the best tool available. Secret ballots have well known advantages. So that's good too. We might consider extending the system to include decisions, and not just opinions about people. Of course, the ideal is that a decision will be reached by concensus. But when it's obvious that concensus will never be formed, a vote can be a way to prevent a never-ending argument. In brief: though I wouldn't recommend polls for everything, there are places where they can be invaluable. I like the idea of using more votes. I don't know of any software that provides the point system you suggested, but I do know of an excellent internet voting system, the Condorcet Internet Voting Service. http://www5.cs.cornell.edu/~andru/civs/ Condorcet voting is ideal for situations where you have more than one candidate (e.g. choosing a slogan). It allows people to rank the candidates in order of preference and it gives the result that most people are satisfied with. I could talk for hours about why Condorcet is the best method, but I'll skip that. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://oooauthors.org /\/_/ http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ \/_/I am not over-weight, I am under-tall. / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 22:30 +, John McCreesh wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 17:01 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > > In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The > > one > > who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable > > sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions > > or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of > > separating the community and the developpers. > > > I think I put a slightly different slant on this. I entirely agree that > the open-source communities which work best are the do-ocracies, those > which value people according to what they contribute. By contribute, I > don't just mean posting to a mailing list, which can be just an > ego-trip. I mean people who actually contribute code (if a developer), > translations (N-L), artwork (art project), collateral (on a marketing > list), etc. What about people who actually get mass take up? Eg someone who goes into a company and persuades them to adopt the product? I guess this is more like sales but since marketing is the nearest we have to selling I'd say that would be a useful contribution and it might not get noticed. Ideally this would get posted to the list but it might not for a variety of reasons. Same is true of people who raise awareness in their place of work. Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of work that goes on that might not be either noticed or understood but if it helps get more users of OOo its of value to the project. > So I like to think of OOo as a community of different projects, each > valuing their contributors according to how they contribute to that > project's aims. I think it is entirely right e.g. for the MP to try and > encourage developers to code what the market wants. > We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for > doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) Thing is the EE thread was actually a serious marketing discussion until it got swamped with "I like EEs so let's keep them". Maybe we need discussion moderation to always keep in mind the relevance to global marketing of the product. If a proposal is made analyse against strengths and weaknesses then come to a conclusion with a recommendation. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 17:01 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The > one > who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable > sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions > or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of > separating the community and the developpers. > I think I put a slightly different slant on this. I entirely agree that the open-source communities which work best are the do-ocracies, those which value people according to what they contribute. By contribute, I don't just mean posting to a mailing list, which can be just an ego-trip. I mean people who actually contribute code (if a developer), translations (N-L), artwork (art project), collateral (on a marketing list), etc. So I like to think of OOo as a community of different projects, each valuing their contributors according to how they contribute to that project's aims. I think it is entirely right e.g. for the MP to try and encourage developers to code what the market wants. We maybe need some mechanism whereby people gain community points for doing things, and maybe lose them for just creating noise on lists :-) John - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On 2/7/06, Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Better to act before the problem arises. Should we lock up the criminals before they commit crimes? How do we know who is a criminal and who isn't? Maybe if someone accuses them of having the potential of becoming a criminal, even though they have done nothing wrong. well, then everyone could start accusing people they don't like... Hmmm. Maybe just if an *expert* says "That person is likely to be a criminal." Then we lock them up the problem is, these easter eggs are *NOT* and never have been a problem. One guy makes some silly comment about seeing EE in free software (which, as I pointed out, we are in good company with the likes of Debian, Mozilla, the GIMP, and others) and suddenly we have to remove these. You claim there will be problems in "your field" of education. Has anyone refused to install OOo at their schools because of EE? Seriously, I want to know. Anyone at all. If not, then this is absolutely a non-issue and needs to be dropped. -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Charles-H.Schulz skrev: the main difference separating a FOSS project from a company, and even a FOSS company or business is that the developpers lead, code and implement the features in the software, and they have no kind of hierarchy upon them (in theory) and they have the hand upon the code, not the marketers. That's a FOSS project to me, and to many out there. The ones who pretend the contrary are demagogues and people flattering the mob. Well, this is my definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Source_Software Finn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 12:31 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: > FWIW, I have the impression that we have less easter eggs today than in older > StarOffice versions. That suggests that easter eggs that cause too much > maintenance effort are removed occasionally. I'm also sure that an easter egg > that negatively affects regular functionality would be removed rather > quickly. What matters is the functionality of the user in his or her every day work. If a teacher finds kids playing with an EE instead of doing an assignment it will affect their functionality but it might never get back and how many multi user education environments do we need to lose before someone acts? Better to act before the problem arises. Fundamental Principle of Total Quality Managent which is hardly a new concept. Lack of attention to this is one of the factors in why the Japanese decimated Harley Davidson in your country and Norton BSA and Triumph here. Its a mistake to confine functionality to simply whether or not the buttons work. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hi, Steven Pauwels wrote: [...] Charles, I'll take your remarks as a compliment. I'll learn what I want and when I want it. Do not dictate. Thank you. The marketing folks will take your advice and help you find a position at proctor and gamble. Feel free. Really, I hope you are aware of your impoliteness in front of all the readers of this list. Netiquette is for all here. when you belong to a community, the rules are not available only when you want. Respecting others is the first step. Pushing every body out won't help you to resolve your issue with the project. Kind regards Sophie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
I like the comments on that issue. A few remarks from a bystander: - If you want to do this yourself, take ownership of the issue - If you want anyone to do this for you, you should provide arguments why this is needed and in which way you are negatively affected by the mere existence of the easter eggs. - The other issue you mention never reached the core developers working on calc, but the submitter also failed to present convincing arguments why that should be considered a defect. - I'm not sure there is anyone who can claim with confidence to know all the easter eggs that exist in OOo, nor would a single person be responsible for all of them. To get them all removed you probably need to find them all and submit a (sub-)issue for each one. But in any case the first thing you need to provide is an answer to the question: "What's the problem?" FWIW, I have the impression that we have less easter eggs today than in older StarOffice versions. That suggests that easter eggs that cause too much maintenance effort are removed occasionally. I'm also sure that an easter egg that negatively affects regular functionality would be removed rather quickly. On 2/7/06, Lars D. Noodén <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > A similar measure was brought up last year: > http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=59593 > > Personall, I'm fine with photos and non-interactive eggs, but there ought > to be a way to disable at least the interactive ones. > > -Lars > Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Software patents endanger the legal certainty of software. > Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
A similar measure was brought up last year: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=59593 Personall, I'm fine with photos and non-interactive eggs, but there ought to be a way to disable at least the interactive ones. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents endanger the legal certainty of software. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Ian Lynch wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 08:27 -0800, Manos Batsis wrote: > > > > This gets my vote as well, the option to disable is by far the most > > sensible choice. > > Oddly enough I suggested that about 24 hours ago ;-) From a marketing > point of view best solution is to remove them but failing that disable > them. I knew someone else mentioned it also; mea culpa for not giving credit where due. -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 08:27 -0800, Manos Batsis wrote: > > This gets my vote as well, the option to disable is by far the most > sensible choice. Oddly enough I suggested that about 24 hours ago ;-) From a marketing point of view best solution is to remove them but failing that disable them. > I may be a lurker here, but i also promote an market > OOo and other in my day job besides developing closed or open source > (not OOo). > Saying that developers don't know squat on marketing may be right[1], > but marketeers do not have a clue about the developer culture, which is > equally important. I have done development - OK quite a while ago. I agree cultures are different so let's use the relevant expertise to make a winning combination. This developer/community divide issue was largely a figment of Charles' vivid imagination. What I called for was some taking into account of people's qualifactions and expertise. I doubt any reasonably minded developer would argue with that. Polarising that into a war over who has or has not got ultimate control is pretty silly. Sun has ultimate control, even if it chooses not to exercise that control. That's the way it is. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Regards, -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Charles-H.Schulz schreef: Steven Pauwels wrote: Charles, I'll take your remarks as a compliment. I'll learn what I want and when I want it. Do not dictate. Thank you. I did not dictate anything. I advised you a way to post that suits the netiquette better. You do what you want of course. But people will not read you if you post your way. But this is indeed extraordinary; you learn what you want when you want it? It is rather unfortunate. It means that you must be over smart and god-like. Try to think again to what you just wrote. The marketing folks will take your advice and help you find a position at proctor and gamble. Let's suppose you tried irony and it didn't work out. Honestly, do you really think that a FOSS project should be led by marketing people? Not that I don't think they are useful, far from that, but once again, the main difference separating a FOSS project from a company, and even a FOSS company or business is that the developpers lead, code and implement the features in the software, and they have no kind of hierarchy upon them (in theory) and they have the hand upon the code, not the marketers. That's a FOSS project to me, and to many out there. The ones who pretend the contrary are demagogues and people flattering the mob. Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your posts are not worth any comment. Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
J David Eisenberg wrote: On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: Some of the contras: - they take the trust out of OOo - distractive to school children these are the two most important for me. Leave in the Easter Eggs; allow an administrator to turn them off on install, thus solving the education problem. It seems to me that this is a good compromise. I don't see why this is such a controversial idea; the Easter Eggs still stay, but the user (who is who we are concerned about) is the one who can decide if they're accessible or not. I would also like to see us put a moratorium on new Easter Eggs. I personally like them, but two or three are enough. If this is the sort of thing that is seen as being encouraged, it will unnecessarily bloat the code, and one of the things people often complain about with OOo is how big the code is to download since it's all one integrated suite, and you can't just download (for instance) the spreadsheet without also getting Base, Impress, etc. *deposits two pennies* -- Steven Shelton Twilight Media & Design www.TwilightMD.com www.GLOAMING.us - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 17:01 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > Hello, > > Ian Lynch wrote: > > >On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:55 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: > > > > > >>Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>These are my thoughs: > >>> > >>>The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who > >>>is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The > >>>developers or the community? > >>> > >>> > >>And who is the community? People that talk? > >> > >> > In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The one > who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable > sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions > or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of > separating the community and the developpers. > I thought this precision is useful, especially if we were going to make > yet another thread on how bad the OOo project is to some people. > I recall these were part of StarOffice5.x. Since OpenOffice.org is based on this code, I am not surprized that they are still there. Nonetheless, I am on the side of those who say remove 'em. -- PLEASE KEEP MESSAGES ON THE LIST. OpenOffice.org Documentation Co-Lead http://documentation.openoffice.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Marketing] Re: who should make the decisions about OOo (was: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!)
Charles-H.Schulz skrev: In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The one who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of separating the community and the developpers. I thought this precision is useful, especially if we were going to make yet another thread on how bad the OOo project is to some people. I don't agree at all that this should be the case in OOo. Maybe this is "normal" in open source projects, but I couldn't care less about what's normal in other open source projects. Our competitor is Microsoft, and I'm very shure that the developers of MS Office don't make the decisions of what way the program should evolve. Do you think the new palette design of the user interface of MS Office 12 was a developer decision? Sure it wasn't - it was a pure marketing decision. I have been doubtful about the realism of the goals in the Marketing Project, but now I'm beginning to feel really worried... Finn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Steven Pauwels wrote: > Charles, > > I'll take your remarks as a compliment. I'll learn what I want and > when I want it. Do not dictate. Thank you. I did not dictate anything. I advised you a way to post that suits the netiquette better. You do what you want of course. But people will not read you if you post your way. But this is indeed extraordinary; you learn what you want when you want it? It is rather unfortunate. It means that you must be over smart and god-like. Try to think again to what you just wrote. > > The marketing folks will take your advice and help you find a position > at proctor and gamble. Let's suppose you tried irony and it didn't work out. Honestly, do you really think that a FOSS project should be led by marketing people? Not that I don't think they are useful, far from that, but once again, the main difference separating a FOSS project from a company, and even a FOSS company or business is that the developpers lead, code and implement the features in the software, and they have no kind of hierarchy upon them (in theory) and they have the hand upon the code, not the marketers. That's a FOSS project to me, and to many out there. The ones who pretend the contrary are demagogues and people flattering the mob. Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Re: who should make the decisions about OOo (was: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!)
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 17:15 +0100, Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: > Charles-H.Schulz skrev: > > > In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The one > > who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable > > sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions > > or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of > > separating the community and the developpers. > > I thought this precision is useful, especially if we were going to make > > yet another thread on how bad the OOo project is to some people. > > I don't agree at all that this should be the case in OOo. Maybe this is > "normal" in open source projects, but I couldn't care less about what's > normal in other open source projects. Our competitor is Microsoft, and > I'm very shure that the developers of MS Office don't make the decisions > of what way the program should evolve. Do you think the new palette > design of the user interface of MS Office 12 was a developer decision? > Sure it wasn't - it was a pure marketing decision. > > I have been doubtful about the realism of the goals in the Marketing > Project, but now I'm beginning to feel really worried... I wonder how true developer control actually is in the OOo Project? How much decision making power do the developers have and how much are they told to do by their employers? Its similar to editorial freedom of the press when the newspaper owner wants something different from the editor. No way of knowing really. I suspect that if Sun said thou shalt remove EEs, the EEs would be removed irrespective of what an individual hacker wanted to do. But that's life, just the way it is. I think some people are seeing things through rose coloured spectacles. Also I think a lot of people seem to be talking for developers. We don't really know what they think. I'd be inclined to believe developers would respect the professional judgement of people in other parts of the project who like them want the project to succeed and like them put a lot of time and effort, mostly unpaid, into that work. Difficulty is if there are no channels of communication between the marketing project and the developers other than filing issues and possibly reading a mailing list. There really is a place for good old face to face discussions now and again. With Skype it can be done without anymore cost than a mailing list. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: > Some of the contras: > - they take the trust out of OOo > - distractive to school children these are the two most important for me. Leave in the Easter Eggs; allow an administrator to turn them off on install, thus solving the education problem. -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Hello, Ian Lynch wrote: >On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:55 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: > > >>Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: >> >> >> >>>These are my thoughs: >>> >>>The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who >>>is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The >>>developers or the community? >>> >>> >>And who is the community? People that talk? >> >> In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The one who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of separating the community and the developpers. I thought this precision is useful, especially if we were going to make yet another thread on how bad the OOo project is to some people. Best, Charles. > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
OK by me. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents endanger the legal certainty of software. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, J David Eisenberg wrote: Leave in the Easter Eggs; allow an administrator to turn them off on - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Charles-H.Schulz schreef: Hello, Ian Lynch wrote: On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:55 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: These are my thoughs: The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The developers or the community? And who is the community? People that talk? In any FOSS community, the community is made of the developpers. The one who codes is the one who calls the shots. The rest, albeit valuable sometimes, has no other way than respecting the developpers' decisions or try to convince them they are wrong. There is hence no question of separating the community and the developpers. I thought this precision is useful, especially if we were going to make yet another thread on how bad the OOo project is to some people. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Slash! the developpers shoud start realising there are other people who want to help on subjects they know squat about. Steven P - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
This gets my vote as well, the option to disable is by far the most sensible choice. I may be a lurker here, but i also promote an market OOo and other in my day job besides developing closed or open source (not OOo). Saying that developers don't know squat on marketing may be right[1], but marketeers do not have a clue about the developer culture, which is equally important. To me this looks like this is going to end up as a Marketing VS Dev war to proove which side of the community (yes we are all in the same community and some in more than one sides) is more powerfull, which is simply irrelevnt to the reason we are all here. Why not satisfy both sides and move to the next thing? [1] Apologies to Steven, it just happened that your's was the latest post i read :-) Just my two cents. Manos Quoting Steven Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > J David Eisenberg wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: > > > > > >> Some of the contras: > >> - they take the trust out of OOo > >> - distractive to school children > >> > > > > these are the two most important for me. > > > > Leave in the Easter Eggs; allow an administrator to turn them off > on > > install, thus solving the education problem. > > It seems to me that this is a good compromise. I don't see why this > is > such a controversial idea; the Easter Eggs still stay, but the user > (who > is who we are concerned about) is the one who can decide if they're > accessible or not. I would also like to see us put a moratorium on > new > Easter Eggs. I personally like them, but two or three are enough. If > > this is the sort of thing that is seen as being encouraged, it will > unnecessarily bloat the code, and one of the things people often > complain about with OOo is how big the code is to download since it's > > all one integrated suite, and you can't just download (for instance) > the > spreadsheet without also getting Base, Impress, etc. > > *deposits two pennies* > > -- > Steven Shelton > Twilight Media & Design > www.TwilightMD.com > www.GLOAMING.us > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Charles-H.Schulz schreef: Steven, Slash! the developpers shoud start realising there are other people who want to help on subjects they know squat about. First of all, please learn how to post. The way you reply and post at the bottom of each message and quote the entire thread is really hard to stand. It is also just not the right way to do. Please read and try to to follow the netiquette. Second, the developpers should indeed take into account the input of other people. But they ultmately call the shots. And if we really want these easter eggs to be removed, then let's release a build without them and submit it in the CVS. That's the way it should work. If I (and I'm not a developper, but I can live with that, really) wanted to contribute to a project where the marketing folks command and decide everything, I wouldn't be here but I would be selling toothpaste at P&G. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charles, I'll take your remarks as a compliment. I'll learn what I want and when I want it. Do not dictate. Thank you. The marketing folks will take your advice and help you find a position at proctor and gamble. Feel free. Steven P - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Steven, > Slash! the developpers shoud start realising there are other people > who want to help on subjects they know squat about. First of all, please learn how to post. The way you reply and post at the bottom of each message and quote the entire thread is really hard to stand. It is also just not the right way to do. Please read and try to to follow the netiquette. Second, the developpers should indeed take into account the input of other people. But they ultmately call the shots. And if we really want these easter eggs to be removed, then let's release a build without them and submit it in the CVS. That's the way it should work. If I (and I'm not a developper, but I can live with that, really) wanted to contribute to a project where the marketing folks command and decide everything, I wouldn't be here but I would be selling toothpaste at P&G. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Option to disable (Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Manos Batsis schreef: This gets my vote as well, the option to disable is by far the most sensible choice. I may be a lurker here, but i also promote an market OOo and other in my day job besides developing closed or open source (not OOo). Saying that developers don't know squat on marketing may be right[1], but marketeers do not have a clue about the developer culture, which is equally important. To me this looks like this is going to end up as a Marketing VS Dev war to proove which side of the community (yes we are all in the same community and some in more than one sides) is more powerfull, which is simply irrelevnt to the reason we are all here. Why not satisfy both sides and move to the next thing? [1] Apologies to Steven, it just happened that your's was the latest post i read :-) Just my two cents. Manos Quoting Steven Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: J David Eisenberg wrote: On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: Some of the contras: - they take the trust out of OOo - distractive to school children these are the two most important for me. Leave in the Easter Eggs; allow an administrator to turn them off on install, thus solving the education problem. It seems to me that this is a good compromise. I don't see why this is such a controversial idea; the Easter Eggs still stay, but the user (who is who we are concerned about) is the one who can decide if they're accessible or not. I would also like to see us put a moratorium on new Easter Eggs. I personally like them, but two or three are enough. If this is the sort of thing that is seen as being encouraged, it will unnecessarily bloat the code, and one of the things people often complain about with OOo is how big the code is to download since it's all one integrated suite, and you can't just download (for instance) the spreadsheet without also getting Base, Impress, etc. *deposits two pennies* -- Steven Shelton Twilight Media & Design www.TwilightMD.com www.GLOAMING.us - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] No worries, just know that I bought 2 tandy trs-80 model 3 when they appeared on EU market at the age of 12 and have been developping in one way or the other since... combined with marketing experience... I think I can do something for both... There is only 1 community... OOo and a war is the last thing we want. We only want some recognition as I am convinced of the power of OOo as a product. Combine the excelent product with the right marketing startegy and I know we have a winner... But how to do so if every little thing we think holds OOo back on its way to winning is debated and thrown away? Here's a thought: Having a good product is one thing... getting people to use it is another. I know both when I see them and that is what I want to do here... I have met some very highly motivated people here and I can asure you that right now, the people needed to win are willing... now for the others? want to kick ass? Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 09:24 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: > I agree with this. Developers who actually make OpenOffice.org (as opposed > to people like me who just talk about it and promote it) should have as > much, if not more say, in this than I do. Chad, on the evidence of this and many other threads, my dead cat should have more say in anything to do with this than you do. > They have obviously made their > choice - several times, as the issue report has been filed on numerous > occassions. There's no point to debate this further. In that case the marketing project might as well pack up and go home. Well I suppose we could stay and design some nice CD labels. I wonder why MS and the other large software companies spend so much on marketing and customer research when actually if they just left it to the developers they would get better results? Better still, leave it to Chad, he is the expert even in fields in which he has no qualifactions or training. > As I've pointed out in the other threads, there are innumerable other > interactive distractions on any personal computer that a student maybe > using. Some Tic Tac Toe game or Space Invaders clone (which has a feature > to prevent repeated use) is not going to add to the problem. If educators > seem to think that it is, the person marketing to them needs to be ready > with an answer for that. The person marketing to them says get into some public schools and talk to some teachers and find out about marketing to schools before you start preaching to others who have some real experience of it. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Chad Smith schreef: On 2/7/06, Lars D. Noodén <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One unwritten issue tied into the egg problem is recognition and appreciation of the skill and effort the developers have put into making OOo as good as it has become. Eggs are a way of making one's mark on the product. If we solve that and find a surrogate that enough developers are pleased with, then opposition to fixing the problem might diminish or go away all together. I agree with this. Developers who actually make OpenOffice.org (as opposed to people like me who just talk about it and promote it) should have as much, if not more say, in this than I do. They have obviously made their choice - several times, as the issue report has been filed on numerous occassions. There's no point to debate this further. The only obvious problems I see are with the interactive eggs, especially in a classroom environment where I'd call them almost showstoppers, though the others may well be benign. As I've pointed out in the other threads, there are innumerable other interactive distractions on any personal computer that a student maybe using. Some Tic Tac Toe game or Space Invaders clone (which has a feature to prevent repeated use) is not going to add to the problem. If educators seem to think that it is, the person marketing to them needs to be ready with an answer for that. -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software! Chad, You obviously have no marketing experience whatsoever. PLease stop telling people what to do and keep this an open discussion, based on arguments. For now, I will no longer discuss this item since I believe it to be part of structural, organisational problems. Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On 2/7/06, Lars D. Noodén <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > One unwritten issue tied into the egg problem is recognition and > appreciation of the skill and effort the developers have put into making > OOo as good as it has become. Eggs are a way of making one's mark on the > product. If we solve that and find a surrogate that enough developers are > pleased with, then opposition to fixing the problem might diminish or go > away all together. I agree with this. Developers who actually make OpenOffice.org (as opposed to people like me who just talk about it and promote it) should have as much, if not more say, in this than I do. They have obviously made their choice - several times, as the issue report has been filed on numerous occassions. There's no point to debate this further. The only obvious problems I see are with the interactive eggs, especially > in a classroom environment where I'd call them almost showstoppers, though > the others may well be benign. > As I've pointed out in the other threads, there are innumerable other interactive distractions on any personal computer that a student maybe using. Some Tic Tac Toe game or Space Invaders clone (which has a feature to prevent repeated use) is not going to add to the problem. If educators seem to think that it is, the person marketing to them needs to be ready with an answer for that. -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Lars D. Noodén wrote: One unwritten issue tied into the egg problem is recognition and appreciation of the skill and effort the developers have put into making OOo as good as it has become. Eggs are a way of making one's mark on the product. If we solve that and find a surrogate that enough developers are pleased with, then opposition to fixing the problem might diminish or go away all together. The only obvious problems I see are with the interactive eggs, especially in a classroom environment where I'd call them almost showstoppers, though the others may well be benign. It's not that the games can compete with what's currently available on the PlayStation, Gamecube or wannabees. It's that the disruption or distraction caused by anything *not* part of the curriculum is exciting. Those kids will tire of it, but then next week you get a new patch of kids who 'discover' the disruption, etc. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents endanger the legal certainty of software. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: Some of the pro's: - why bother, they don't hurt anyone - they are fun - developpers are only humans - the contra-people need to lighten up :) - maybe we should, but not if its about OOo marketing! :) - ... Some of the contras: - why have things that are not needed or wanted by anyone else then developpers - they have nothng to do with an office product - they take the trust out of OOo - distractive to school children - leverage the power of NOT having them is a very good marketing item - having them is a bad marketing item - MS stopped having them in 2001 (so it seems, if anyone knows of the opposite, let us know) - ... Now I know my English isn't that good sometimes and maybe I misinterprete some things said sometimes... but IMHO it seems like developpers like Easter eggs and others don't. This is an issue IMHO the CC should decide on, taking in account the above I took from the threads. Or does the CC have no authority here? I do not know. Steven P. I would vote no on the Easter Eggs, however I do not consider the pictures of the developers to be a problem, the games however are. So maybe the games should be removed and the pictures and lists of developers can stay. James - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:55 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: > Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: > > > These are my thoughs: > > > > The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who > > is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The > > developers or the community? > > And who is the community? People that talk? It could be the CC but the influence of Sun makes it not a straightforward thing democracy-wise. On issues like this it would be possible to have a simple vote but the snag with that is that a lot of people will be voting with no real expertise in marketing. Internet voting is actually quite easy to achieve, though. Ideally the MP leads woud have enough clout to sort this out but neither has been part of this debate so we don't know what their views are. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
One unwritten issue tied into the egg problem is recognition and appreciation of the skill and effort the developers have put into making OOo as good as it has become. Eggs are a way of making one's mark on the product. If we solve that and find a surrogate that enough developers are pleased with, then opposition to fixing the problem might diminish or go away all together. The only obvious problems I see are with the interactive eggs, especially in a classroom environment where I'd call them almost showstoppers, though the others may well be benign. It's not that the games can compete with what's currently available on the PlayStation, Gamecube or wannabees. It's that the disruption or distraction caused by anything *not* part of the curriculum is exciting. Those kids will tire of it, but then next week you get a new patch of kids who 'discover' the disruption, etc. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents endanger the legal certainty of software. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Steven Pauwels wrote: Some of the pro's: - why bother, they don't hurt anyone - they are fun - developpers are only humans - the contra-people need to lighten up :) - maybe we should, but not if its about OOo marketing! :) - ... Some of the contras: - why have things that are not needed or wanted by anyone else then developpers - they have nothng to do with an office product - they take the trust out of OOo - distractive to school children - leverage the power of NOT having them is a very good marketing item - having them is a bad marketing item - MS stopped having them in 2001 (so it seems, if anyone knows of the opposite, let us know) - ... Now I know my English isn't that good sometimes and maybe I misinterprete some things said sometimes... but IMHO it seems like developpers like Easter eggs and others don't. This is an issue IMHO the CC should decide on, taking in account the above I took from the threads. Or does the CC have no authority here? I do not know. Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Cor Nouws skrev: And who is the community? People that talk? Well, that is *also* a big question :-) I don't know how to define "the community". I just wanted to point out that developers should not misuse their power to implement self-invented functionality, but only implement functionality that has somehow been requested. Finn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Finn Gruwier Larsen wrote: These are my thoughs: The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The developers or the community? And who is the community? People that talk? -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
These are my thoughs: The easter eggs question rises a bigger and more important question: who is really in charge of making decisions on the functionality of OOo? The developers or the community? Ideally it should be the community. The developers should just make the funcionality that the community wants - notihing more, nothing less. Therefore, and since easter eggs functionality was never requested by any user, easter eggs should not be there. On the other hand I don't think they harm much, but from principles I'll vote no to easter eggs. If anyone attacks me for being boring and not having a sence of humour, I don't care because I know it's not true...anyone who knows me knows that I have in fact a very well-developed sence of humour :-) Finn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 09:40 +0100, Steven Pauwels wrote: > Some of the pro's: > - why bother, they don't hurt anyone > - they are fun > - developpers are only humans > - the contra-people need to lighten up :) > - maybe we should, but not if its about OOo marketing! :) > - ... > > Some of the contras: > - why have things that are not needed or wanted by anyone else then > developpers > - they have nothng to do with an office product > - they take the trust out of OOo > - distractive to school children > - leverage the power of NOT having them is a very good marketing item > - having them is a bad marketing item > - MS stopped having them in 2001 (so it seems, if anyone knows of the > opposite, let us know) > - ... > > Now I know my English isn't that good sometimes and maybe I > misinterprete some things said sometimes... but IMHO it seems like > developpers like Easter eggs and others don't. > > This is an issue IMHO the CC should decide on, taking in account the > above I took from the threads. Or does the CC have no authority here? I > do not know. Traditionally the process for dealing with this is to file an issue. Snag is that this was done and it was immediately closed by one of the developers who clearly didn't understand the marketing implications. Also there are so many issues even prioritising them seems to be a major problem. If its a serious bug, a showstopper, it will get fixed but beyond that there is no certainty so there tends then to be a "Why bother" incentive. This really is a marketing issue and while its probably not the end of the world, if it doesn't get fixed it gives the signal that marketing really isn't that important and its just development that matters. This is a significant problem in many Open Source communities. You and I both see the issue, but there has been support to keep EEs in the marketing project so we don't even have a consensus here with which to go to the CC. Unfortunately the great majority of people in the marketing project are not marketing experts so I guess its going to be very frustrating to someone who is and ends up as the lone voice crying in the wilderness ;-) -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Marketing] Final call for easter egg oppinion!
Some of the pro's: - why bother, they don't hurt anyone - they are fun - developpers are only humans - the contra-people need to lighten up :) - maybe we should, but not if its about OOo marketing! :) - ... Some of the contras: - why have things that are not needed or wanted by anyone else then developpers - they have nothng to do with an office product - they take the trust out of OOo - distractive to school children - leverage the power of NOT having them is a very good marketing item - having them is a bad marketing item - MS stopped having them in 2001 (so it seems, if anyone knows of the opposite, let us know) - ... Now I know my English isn't that good sometimes and maybe I misinterprete some things said sometimes... but IMHO it seems like developpers like Easter eggs and others don't. This is an issue IMHO the CC should decide on, taking in account the above I took from the threads. Or does the CC have no authority here? I do not know. Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
