Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Wed, 2010-10-06, Alex Fisher wrote: > Secondly, "Libre Office"!? Come on! For a Francophone (and probably speakers > of the other Romance languages) the name might mean something. But to an > Anglophone, who is not "into" OSS, it conveys no meaning at all. The same > would apply to virtually all other non-Romance languages. So what? The "Open" in OpenOffice.org means nothing to most people, who have never heard of "open source" or "open standards" or "open" anything else. It conveys no meaning at all. If I explain, people don't care, don't understand why they should care, and lose interest. OTOH, if someone asks what "LibreOffice" means, it's easy: "Libre means free, as in liberty or freedom." That is something people can understand and relate to. --Jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] birthday cake [WAS: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Danishka Navin wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Andreas Bartel > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I am really wondering what this verbal crusade against Oracle and its >> employees is all about? This all reminds me too much of Middle Ages >> campaigns. Is that what you call social responsibility and soft skills? >> >> Here is maybe an appropriate quote: >> >> "Stop telling how good you are. Be good!" >> > > I did not say anything to *...@oracle.com but Oracle. > I do not have any personal issues with any of you. > and you are appointed by Oracle to continue with OO.org with the community. > > I just gave an example related to Oracle. > > I know nobody want to listen any thing against his/her company as they love > it... > > > btw, I was replying to Louis. its obvious that new move will be reaching better possession in the Office application market share. > > > > >> Regards, >> Andreas >> >> >> Am 07.10.2010 um 10:11 schrieb Danishka Navin: >> >> > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts < >> > louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> On 2010-10-07, at 09:10 , Alex Fisher wrote: >> >> >> >>> My personal concern is that this move has sounded the death knell for >> >> OO.o. >> >>> IMO, it is the end of any real chance we had of seriously reducing the >> >> market >> >>> share of Microsoft Office. >> >> >> >> Nope. >> >> >> >> >> > simple question; >> > >> > Oracle forked RHEL (and shamelessly promoting that faked spin as >> > UNBREAKABLE Linux only with the latest kernel) >> > >> > Due to this poor approach making any advantage for Microsoft Server >> Market? >> > >> > One of the best thing I love in FOSS is choice. >> > >> > Let community to chose what they want. >> > >> > This will be a good chance to see more cool features and enhanced HCI >> from >> > FOSS Office applications. :) >> > >> > Still Oracle have a chance to be a good boy in the family of FOSS. >> > >> > Best Regards, >> > Danishka >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Danishka Navin >> > http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com >> > http://twitter.com/danishkanavin >> > http://identi.ca/danishka >> >> >> Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer >> Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 >> Oracle OFFICE GBU >> >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg >> >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG >> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München >> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 >> >> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande >> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven >> >> >> >> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect >> the environment >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org >> >> > > > -- > Danishka Navin > http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com > http://twitter.com/danishkanavin > http://identi.ca/danishka > -- Danishka Navin http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/danishkanavin http://identi.ca/danishka
Re: [marketing] birthday cake [WAS: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Andreas Bartel wrote: > Dear all, > > I am really wondering what this verbal crusade against Oracle and its > employees is all about? This all reminds me too much of Middle Ages > campaigns. Is that what you call social responsibility and soft skills? > > Here is maybe an appropriate quote: > > "Stop telling how good you are. Be good!" > I did not say anything to *...@oracle.com but Oracle. I do not have any personal issues with any of you. and you are appointed by Oracle to continue with OO.org with the community. I just gave an example related to Oracle. I know nobody want to listen any thing against his/her company as they love it... btw, I was replying to Louis and its obvious this move can gain more community to get MS Office. > Regards, > Andreas > > > Am 07.10.2010 um 10:11 schrieb Danishka Navin: > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts < > > louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> On 2010-10-07, at 09:10 , Alex Fisher wrote: > >> > >>> My personal concern is that this move has sounded the death knell for > >> OO.o. > >>> IMO, it is the end of any real chance we had of seriously reducing the > >> market > >>> share of Microsoft Office. > >> > >> Nope. > >> > >> > > simple question; > > > > Oracle forked RHEL (and shamelessly promoting that faked spin as > > UNBREAKABLE Linux only with the latest kernel) > > > > Due to this poor approach making any advantage for Microsoft Server > Market? > > > > One of the best thing I love in FOSS is choice. > > > > Let community to chose what they want. > > > > This will be a good chance to see more cool features and enhanced HCI > from > > FOSS Office applications. :) > > > > Still Oracle have a chance to be a good boy in the family of FOSS. > > > > Best Regards, > > Danishka > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Danishka Navin > > http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com > > http://twitter.com/danishkanavin > > http://identi.ca/danishka > > > Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer > Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 > Oracle OFFICE GBU > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München > Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 > > Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven > > > > Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect > the environment > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > -- Danishka Navin http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/danishkanavin http://identi.ca/danishka
Re: [marketing] birthday cake [WAS: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Dear all, I am really wondering what this verbal crusade against Oracle and its employees is all about? This all reminds me too much of Middle Ages campaigns. Is that what you call social responsibility and soft skills? Here is maybe an appropriate quote: "Stop telling how good you are. Be good!" Regards, Andreas Am 07.10.2010 um 10:11 schrieb Danishka Navin: > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts < > louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> On 2010-10-07, at 09:10 , Alex Fisher wrote: >> >>> My personal concern is that this move has sounded the death knell for >> OO.o. >>> IMO, it is the end of any real chance we had of seriously reducing the >> market >>> share of Microsoft Office. >> >> Nope. >> >> > simple question; > > Oracle forked RHEL (and shamelessly promoting that faked spin as > UNBREAKABLE Linux only with the latest kernel) > > Due to this poor approach making any advantage for Microsoft Server Market? > > One of the best thing I love in FOSS is choice. > > Let community to chose what they want. > > This will be a good chance to see more cool features and enhanced HCI from > FOSS Office applications. :) > > Still Oracle have a chance to be a good boy in the family of FOSS. > > Best Regards, > Danishka > > > > > > -- > Danishka Navin > http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com > http://twitter.com/danishkanavin > http://identi.ca/danishka Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] birthday cake [WAS: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts < louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > On 2010-10-07, at 09:10 , Alex Fisher wrote: > > > My personal concern is that this move has sounded the death knell for > OO.o. > > IMO, it is the end of any real chance we had of seriously reducing the > market > > share of Microsoft Office. > > Nope. > > simple question; Oracle forked RHEL (and shamelessly promoting that faked spin as UNBREAKABLE Linux only with the latest kernel) Due to this poor approach making any advantage for Microsoft Server Market? One of the best thing I love in FOSS is choice. Let community to chose what they want. This will be a good chance to see more cool features and enhanced HCI from FOSS Office applications. :) Still Oracle have a chance to be a good boy in the family of FOSS. Best Regards, Danishka -- Danishka Navin http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/danishkanavin http://identi.ca/danishka
[marketing] birthday cake [WAS: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi all, On 2010-10-07, at 09:10 , Alex Fisher wrote: > My personal concern is that this move has sounded the death knell for OO.o. > IMO, it is the end of any real chance we had of seriously reducing the market > share of Microsoft Office. Nope. -louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
> On 10/06/2010 05:29 AM, Alex Fisher wrote: > > Secondly, "Libre Office"!? > > You might not understand the meaning. I do, both in the OSS sense *and* in the sense conveyed by the original tongue... > You might not know how to pronounce it. I probably pronounce it better than you do. I speak French quite well, with less of an accent than most Anglophones. And because of that, I also read and comprehend at a reasonable level the other 3 major members of the Romance group (I've not so far found any need to try my hand at Romanian, the fifth member of the group). I also speak some German, which also enables me to read and make sense of most of the Germanic languages (I have not so far taken much notice of Icelandic). I even speak Finnish, and can read a some Hebrew and Greek. > But both of those are solvable issues. No, only the first is. > > Branding is a black art. And? > > When a new brand is created, most of the money spent on naming it, goes > to trademark searches, and determining if there are pre-existing > negative, or obscene connotations to the proposed name, in languages > that might be used where the new brand is to be marketed. I'm fully aware of all that. Your point is? > > > would apply to virtually all other non-Romance languages. > > Any name that is chosen is going to have issues with people not being > able to pronounce it, or not knowing what it means. > > Try this sentence: "Sebeqabele gqi thapha bathi nguqo ngqothwane". So? > > If you learned to speak that language prior to age six, there is a 25% > probability that you won't be able to pronounce that sentence correctly. > If you didn't learn to speak that language prior to age six, you won't > be able to pronounce it correctly. Maybe, maybe not. Some linguists suggest the age of 8 as the age at which pronunciations and stress patterns become set, actually. > > Could you spell "i-ofisi ekhululekileyo " correctly? > [I'm fairly confident that you couldn't pronounce it correctly.] You might be surprised. > > That is what LibO would be called, if that language were used, rather > than the Romance languages that are used. > > Ag, maybe somebody would give dem yankees a break, and use "vula > i-ofisi" instead. They still couldn't pronounce it, but they might be > able to spell it. > > > The choice of "Libre" immediately gives me the impression that the whole > > thing > > People can learn new words. If they want to. The "average" end user in most cases probably just couldn't care less (or, for the USAians, "could care less".) > People can learn new meanings to existing words. see above... > > Governments have used Orwellian NewSpeak for decades, to make their > crimes sound more palatable. > > > I have trouble believing the figures put forward. Bear in mind that the > > Community Council is *not* the entire community. The Developers are > > *not* the entire community. They are *part* of the community, and *only* > > part of it. > > The Community Council represents the users. That is how it is supposed to be. But that also implies some sort of consultation, which is completely lacking here > The Developers are the people that work on the product. > > Take a look at who registered the various LibreOffice domain names. And > look at how fast those domain names were registered. That (the hasty registration of domain names) only serves to increase my level of suspicion relating to the motivation. > > [One reason why the formation of Document Foundation, and LibreOffice > had to kept under wraps, was to minimize domain name cybersquatting.] There could (and should) still have been much more consultation outside the CC and devs than there was. Such could have been achieved without prematurely revealing the putative names favoured by the breakaways. > > >To the vast majority of people who comprise the community, this > > announcement would have come as a complete shock. > > It would have been a shock only to those people who don't pay any > attention to the Community Council list, or the developer list. Really? And what percentage of the community reads these lists? And which developer list(s) do you refer to? > > By July 2010, it was clear that OOo developers, community council, and > users would declare independence from Oracle. The only issue was when. No, it was *not* clear. I've been following these sagas through several different media > > Once OpenIndiana was announced, it should have been obvious to everybody > that OOo was the next community project that Oracle would lose. Not obvious. Several online sources reported the "birth" of that group. Those I read also speculated on the fate of other things within Oracle. OO.o was not mentioned by any of them. OTOH, Java was > > jonathon I still remain to be convinced that this is really what the majority of the community (which must include end-users and others who have any involvement with OO.o (the product), not just the
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On 10/06/2010 05:29 AM, Alex Fisher wrote: > Secondly, "Libre Office"!? You might not understand the meaning. You might not know how to pronounce it. But both of those are solvable issues. Branding is a black art. When a new brand is created, most of the money spent on naming it, goes to trademark searches, and determining if there are pre-existing negative, or obscene connotations to the proposed name, in languages that might be used where the new brand is to be marketed. > would apply to virtually all other non-Romance languages. Any name that is chosen is going to have issues with people not being able to pronounce it, or not knowing what it means. Try this sentence: "Sebeqabele gqi thapha bathi nguqo ngqothwane". If you learned to speak that language prior to age six, there is a 25% probability that you won't be able to pronounce that sentence correctly. If you didn't learn to speak that language prior to age six, you won't be able to pronounce it correctly. Could you spell "i-ofisi ekhululekileyo " correctly? [I'm fairly confident that you couldn't pronounce it correctly.] That is what LibO would be called, if that language were used, rather than the Romance languages that are used. Ag, maybe somebody would give dem yankees a break, and use "vula i-ofisi" instead. They still couldn't pronounce it, but they might be able to spell it. > The choice of "Libre" immediately gives me the impression that the whole > thing People can learn new words. People can learn new meanings to existing words. Governments have used Orwellian NewSpeak for decades, to make their crimes sound more palatable. > I have trouble believing the figures put forward. Bear in mind that the > Community Council is *not* the entire community. The Developers are *not* the > entire community. They are *part* of the community, and *only* part of it. The Community Council represents the users. The Developers are the people that work on the product. Take a look at who registered the various LibreOffice domain names. And look at how fast those domain names were registered. [One reason why the formation of Document Foundation, and LibreOffice had to kept under wraps, was to minimize domain name cybersquatting.] >To the vast majority of people who comprise the community, this announcement would have come as a complete shock. It would have been a shock only to those people who don't pay any attention to the Community Council list, or the developer list. By July 2010, it was clear that OOo developers, community council, and users would declare independence from Oracle. The only issue was when. Once OpenIndiana was announced, it should have been obvious to everybody that OOo was the next community project that Oracle would lose. jonathon -- No human will see non-list, non-bulk, non-junk email sent to this address. It all gets forwarded to /dev/null signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:38:44 +0200 Florian Effenberger wrote: > The feedback we have received so far from the Community (again, > the Community we are talking about) has been either very positive, > and at worst, "let's see". The only ones talking about two > communities, about splitting, about forking, are Oracle people. Why? Because there are many people at Oracle that are part of the Community, who are working and promoting for OpenOffice.org on their leisure time, travel to conferences and other events far beyond what their contracts require (*). You seem to be willing to ignore their contribution and hard work because they have a day job with the same topic as their volunteer work? > These are, very briefly, my thoughts. I still feel responsible for > *ONE* Community, our Community. Except that you seem to think that a volunteer whose day job is working at Oracle does not count as a community member (and thus has no "vote"), regardless of his personal contributions. Best Regards, Bjoern (*) Just take a look at some commit times, for example. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi all. Pardon the top post, but for what I have to say, it's the best way to go. As things stand, I cannot support this move. From where I sit there are several things that make me extremely wary. The first (and major) sticking point is the name of the putative foundation. "The Document Foundation"? This smacks of a hijacking by the Open Document Foundation (ODF). I mean, just look at the names - there is only one word different, and I've noticed that at least some of those backing this move are (or were) heavily involved with the ODF. Think about it, and you may realize why I'm so sceptical about the "foundation" and its credentials. So for that reason, I would have extreme difficulty promoting it, unless I am presented with very strong evidence that the two foundations have nothing to do with each other. Secondly, "Libre Office"!? Come on! For a Francophone (and probably speakers of the other Romance languages) the name might mean something. But to an Anglophone, who is not "into" OSS, it conveys no meaning at all. The same would apply to virtually all other non-Romance languages. The choice of "Libre" immediately gives me the impression that the whole thing has been engineered by a group from the "rat-bag" fringe elements of OSS "purists", those who want to see all proprietary software companies totally destroyed, and who refuse to concede that sometimes Open Source Software is *not* better (yes, maybe I am a heretic. So what?). It has been said that most of the OO.o community is backing this. I have trouble believing the figures put forward. Bear in mind that the Community Council is *not* the entire community. The Developers are *not* the entire community. They are *part* of the community, and *only* part of it. Couple that with the fact that no-one has publicly canvassed the views of the community prior to the announcement. Nothing has been said apart from the occasional rumblings of discontent from the same few people. To the vast majority of people who comprise the community, this announcement would have come as a complete shock. So, to recapitulate, until I am satisfied that this move is not in any way related to other non-OO.o groups, and until you can come up with a much better name (one which can be translated without loss of meaning, and which does not sound stupid to Joe Sixpack), Then I will not support the "foundation" in any way (of course, should Oracle come to the party, then there will be no problem). The idea of a foundation is one I support, but this does not come across as the right way to go about it. > Hi Simon, > > Simon Brouwer wrote (05-10-10 09:33) > > > Drew Jensen schreef: > >> And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with > >> "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is > >> a corporate affiliation? > > > > I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the > > cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg > > team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and > > the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or > > I had that concern too. And still to a certain, more and more limited, > extend. But that only is for the intermediate time, during the > transition. Look: > [snippage] -- Alex Fisher Co-Lead, CD-ROM Project OpenOffice.org Marketing Community Contact Australia/New Zealand http://distribution.openoffice.org/cdrom/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:33:35 +0200 schrieb Thorsten Behrens : > > A foundation per se is a great thing, but when there are two source > > code repositories and two final products then "this project" is > > either schizophrenic or it is actually two projects. And being > > schizophrenic is not a healthy state of mind. > > > Then OOo 3.2.1, 3.2 etc. are forks, too? No, because they get contributed to the main development codeline (aka DEV300). > And surely, in this day and age, we have at least as many source > code repositories as there are active developers in the project - as > with DSCMs, everyone has his local clone anyway. I find the attempt > to argue on the grounds of technicalities rather ironic, when, in > reality, all this is about is community. Which is not a problem at all as long as these repositories can freely interchange their code. With diverting codelines that will be very hard for a huge project as is OOo. > > If do want not contribute to that under the current conditions > > there are only two mutually exclusive choices: Either try to > > change the conditions in the existing project or start your own. > > > Quite. Currently we're trying to change the conditions with, and > within, the existing project. You argue we are not entitled to do > so, and I wonder where that authority comes from. I am not saying you are not entitled to do so. I am saying, and that is just a personal opinion, that trying to change the conditions in the project is getting harder when you are creating an incompatible branch at the same time. Best Regards, Bjoern -- Oracle Bjoern Michaelsen | Software Engineer Phone: +49 40 2515230 | Fax: +49 40 256811 Oracle Office GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Andreas, Andreas Bartel wrote on 2010-10-05 13.02: I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. we're using the infrastructure - that is sponsored by Oracle - has been shaped and formed by the Community - and is held by Oracle in due diligence for the Community - to discuss things about the Community I don't get the point what's wrong about this. And, don't forget, that others contributed to the infrastructure as well, with their work and money (example: QATrack, hosted on OOoDeV machines). Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Andreas, Andreas Bartel wrote (05-10-10 13:02) [...] I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. That might possible be the result of old pains and frustrations that sneaky find their way out through personal messages? Anyway the official texts we look very careful for more aspects, one of them being respectful to the good things that Oracle(Sun) brought OpenOffice.org. Period. And I know that personal messages from my keyboard breathe the same spirit. Kindest regards, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - ideas/remarks for the community council? See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Simon, Simon Brouwer wrote (05-10-10 09:33) Drew Jensen schreef: And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is a corporate affiliation? I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or I had that concern too. And still to a certain, more and more limited, extend. But that only is for the intermediate time, during the transition. Look: One: when the (unbound part of the) community starts to move (be it 80 or 95 %), there is no choice. You can stand still, or help to make it a success. Which in the end is better for all, *all*. Two: as explained so often already the last weeks: lot of potential development power (both private and corporate) have been missed because of the past situation. And this new independent foundation is going to solve that. So as soon as we have combined efforts as much as possible (without either too fanatic 'free' vision, nor too much business eagerness, just a good balance, therefore the independent foundation) it is an advantage for all, including Oracle. hurt (potential) users' confidence. I have yet to see whether TDF, with all its good intentions, will be able to set up the LibreOffice project with sufficient developer force and expertise to really compensate. Soon there will be numbers made public by TDF. See what grows or even better, join to help to make also your dream come through. Kindest regards, Cor -- - free OpenOffice.org :: LibreOffice - - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:05:19 +0200 schrieb Thorsten Behrens : > > If you move your contributions somewhere else it supports your > > position there, but not in this project anymore. > > > Your definition of "this project" is kinda arbitrary, and definitely > does not match mine. For me, this project is defined by its > community, the shared vision on what it is & what it should become - And the focal point of this is the source code and the final product (aka OpenOffice.org releases). > and if you look around, you find very many people, including all > non-Oracle members of the CC, favouring an independent foundation. A foundation per se is a great thing, but when there are two source code repositories and two final products then "this project" is either schizophrenic or it is actually two projects. And being schizophrenic is not a healthy state of mind. > I think you need to clarify this: with "contributing to > OpenOffice.org", you mean "contributing to Oracle"? Otherwise I do > not understand your statement. I mean contributing to the Openoffice.org releases, their source code or promoting and marketing of them. If do want not contribute to that under the current conditions there are only two mutually exclusive choices: Either try to change the conditions in the existing project or start your own. I guess, mixing both throwing in an "independant foundation that is part of it"(*) will not serve anybody. Ah well, we will see. Best Regards, Bjoern (*) oxymoron detected here -- Oracle Bjoern Michaelsen | Software Engineer Phone: +49 40 2515230 | Fax: +49 40 256811 Oracle Office GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Florian, I'd like to join you in sharing thoughts :-) By the way, to steal Charle's thunder, I am neither mad nor do I hate anyone. I am still doing my job as before and I am pretty much confident that I will continue improving the UX of OpenOffice.org in the future, for quite some time. So no hard feelings at all. I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. The other thing that I've been observing so far is that those who are not sure if they like TDF or OpenOffice.org more are treated with very little respect. Especially on the Germanophone list. Regards, Andreas Am 05.10.2010 12:38, schrieb Florian Effenberger: Hi, I'd love to share some thoughts that I have already sent to the Germanophone list: 1. We have an OpenOffice.org Community Council, elected in a long, open and transparent process, to ensure this Council represents the Community we are talking about in the best way possible. *EVERYONE* in this Council who is not an Oracle employee, is part of TDF, and also some deputies are with us. The Council's mission is to ensure the will of the Community is respected, and to ensure it's interest is spoken out with an united voice. If all Council representatives despite Oracle support the step, this clearly should make a lot of people think. 2. The feedback we have received so far from the Community (again, the Community we are talking about) has been either very positive, and at worst, "let's see". The only ones talking about two communities, about splitting, about forking, are Oracle people. Why? Why do you think you can speak on everyone's behalf, if the reality seems to look a bit different? These are, very briefly, my thoughts. I still feel responsible for *ONE* Community, our Community. Florian -- Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi, I'd love to share some thoughts that I have already sent to the Germanophone list: 1. We have an OpenOffice.org Community Council, elected in a long, open and transparent process, to ensure this Council represents the Community we are talking about in the best way possible. *EVERYONE* in this Council who is not an Oracle employee, is part of TDF, and also some deputies are with us. The Council's mission is to ensure the will of the Community is respected, and to ensure it's interest is spoken out with an united voice. If all Council representatives despite Oracle support the step, this clearly should make a lot of people think. 2. The feedback we have received so far from the Community (again, the Community we are talking about) has been either very positive, and at worst, "let's see". The only ones talking about two communities, about splitting, about forking, are Oracle people. Why? Why do you think you can speak on everyone's behalf, if the reality seems to look a bit different? These are, very briefly, my thoughts. I still feel responsible for *ONE* Community, our Community. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 10:53 +0200, Bjoern michaelsen wrote: > I have not seen any hate around here, however quite lot of personal > disappointment. Politics is all about personal disappointments. What is done is done so let's look forward. In the end he who pays the piper calls the tune. Whether the resource is split between two projects or largely focused in one will determine the longer term outcome. If one commands more resource than the other it will probably dominate in terms of user volume. For ordinary community members like me it comes down to whether I believe a Foundation will be better than single company control, on the emotional side in terms of my value systems and on the rational side in terms of effect on the market. LibreOffice's market success will depend on the resources that it can attract and how much will Oracle has to either join it or compete with it. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:19:56 +0200 "Charles-H. Schulz" wrote: > No. We're not NeoOffice, Lotus or Oracle Open Office: we are > OpenOffice.org ... No, you selfproclaimed are TDF/LO in the first place and OpenOffice.org only if it suits you. If you move your contributions somewhere else it supports your position there, but not in this project anymore. So when you are claiming to wanting to move to a more meritocratic structure, it is unfortunate to see you want to keep influence on a project you do not want to contribute anymore. As I said before: You cant have a cake and eat it. If you are still interested in contributing to OpenOffice.org, I would be very interested in an reliable precise statement by TDF on how it intends to contribute back to OpenOffice.org. So far I only heard about how it intends _not_ to contribute back. > Think about this fact: People who have been working with you guys for > 10 years or who generally have contributed their best days, their > leisure time, their jobs, to build OOo ... While not being part of the project for so long, you describe me and many others at Oracle. For many here OpenOffice.org is not just a job and they are contributing in their leisure time much more than you might think. These are people that are rightfully feeling part of the OpenOffice.org community just as you were. > How could we have come up with such a crazy project for which some, > if most of you will hate us for the rest of their lives? Again, think > about it. I was really interested to find out. Unfortunately by actions seen by now I get the feeling that naïveté had a lot to do with it. And, by the way: I have not seen any hate around here, however quite lot of personal disappointment. Best Regards, Bjoern - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
It's OK. Never mind. Tina 2010/10/5 Simon Brouwer > Hi Drew, > > Drew Jensen schreef: > > > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member > >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. > >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle > >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the > >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big > >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts > >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. > >> > > > > Simon, > > > > Disregard the last email - it doesn't really fit with what you actually > > said there. > > Too late... ;) > > > -- > Vriendelijke groet, > > Simon Brouwer > -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > -- -- 李延華 iThome軟體召集人 tina...@mail.ithome.com.tw 0988-134-846 (02)2562-2880 ext. 3639 台北市南京東路二段6號11樓
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Drew Jensen schreef: > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. >> > > Simon, > > Disregard the last email - it doesn't really fit with what you actually > said there. Too late... ;) -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Drew Jensen schreef: > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. >> > > And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with > "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is > a corporate affiliation? I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or hurt (potential) users' confidence. I have yet to see whether TDF, with all its good intentions, will be able to set up the LibreOffice project with sufficient developer force and expertise to really compensate. -- best regards, Simon Brouwer -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Simon Brouwer wrote (05-10-10 05:03) Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. It is not the change from Sun to Oracle that initiated the current move from the community. Pls see my explanation on disc...@. Cor -- - free OpenOffice.org :: LibreOffice - - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Simon, Simon Brouwer wrote (04-10-10 23:39) Apparently it's easy to forget that it has also continuously been putting in much of the effort baking it, and that it had provided the cake in the first place. IMO the arrangement was definitely not ideal but also not particularly unfair. Basically the latter is true, and a very understandable position for people looking from the more outer borders of the community. But people really working at the heart of it, and thus having to deal with the schism of main sponsor versus the rest of the community, will tell different. Despite patience, open attitude and tolerance... Well, take the time to go through the council logs of the past years as first entry point. Where necessary, let yourself being informed about the details and such. HTH, Cor -- - free OpenOffice.org :: LibreOffice - - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. Simon, Disregard the last email - it doesn't really fit with what you actually said there. Drew - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is a corporate affiliation? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Op 5-10-2010 0:40, Drew Jensen schreef: On 10/04/2010 05:39 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote: Apparently it's easy to forget that it has also continuously been putting in much of the effort baking it, and that it had provided the cake in the first place. Please believe me when I say that it is not nearly as easy as it may seem from outward appearances. I found out about this action the day before it was made public and I waited, as I was asked to, to talk openly with others until after the formal announcement. That day, of contemplation, may make it appear that I was acting almost spontaneously. IMO the arrangement was definitely not ideal but also not particularly unfair. IMO, it is a case of perspective, and I am cognizant of the fact that honorable people can have honest differences of opinion, with enough truth on all sides for each to feel justified in their beliefs. That over the course of this period the members of the community governing structure not employed by the major corporate sponsor felt it necessary to create a non-profit foundation. Certainly what one would call 'the community' included the major corporate sponsor. What is happening now, IMO, is that Oracle is attempting to exercise a right of veto over the aspirations of the other members of the community. I am not sure in how far it is correct to equate The Document Foundation with "the other members of the community". Since Tuesday however I have been in communication with literally dozens of individuals, either by direct email, by phone call, IM, and open forums. To say that there is unanimous agreement with these actions would not be true. There is as far as I can tell however a strong consensus amongst those I've spoken with that this is a correct course of action, even if there is great trepidation on the part of some of these individuals. A few individuals are strongly opposed, a couple of them have begun to change their minds over the last few days and are now more receptive to this change, others have not changed their opinion. I would assume that this is actually the case with folks in the offices in Hamburg also and I can only guess that many of you find yourselves caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place, others no doubt are less conflicted. *smile* Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. -- Best regards, Simon Brouwer. | http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On 10/04/2010 05:39 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote: Apparently it's easy to forget that it has also continuously been putting in much of the effort baking it, and that it had provided the cake in the first place. Please believe me when I say that it is not nearly as easy as it may seem from outward appearances. I found out about this action the day before it was made public and I waited, as I was asked to, to talk openly with others until after the formal announcement. That day, of contemplation, may make it appear that I was acting almost spontaneously. IMO the arrangement was definitely not ideal but also not particularly unfair. IMO, it is a case of perspective, and I am cognizant of the fact that honorable people can have honest differences of opinion, with enough truth on all sides for each to feel justified in their beliefs. That over the course of this period the members of the community governing structure not employed by the major corporate sponsor felt it necessary to create a non-profit foundation. Certainly what one would call 'the community' included the major corporate sponsor. What is happening now, IMO, is that Oracle is attempting to exercise a right of veto over the aspirations of the other members of the community. I am not sure in how far it is correct to equate The Document Foundation with "the other members of the community". Since Tuesday however I have been in communication with literally dozens of individuals, either by direct email, by phone call, IM, and open forums. To say that there is unanimous agreement with these actions would not be true. There is as far as I can tell however a strong consensus amongst those I've spoken with that this is a correct course of action, even if there is great trepidation on the part of some of these individuals. A few individuals are strongly opposed, a couple of them have begun to change their minds over the last few days and are now more receptive to this change, others have not changed their opinion. I would assume that this is actually the case with folks in the offices in Hamburg also and I can only guess that many of you find yourselves caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place, others no doubt are less conflicted. *smile* I'll finish with this - ain't no guarantees in life, sometimes you just have make a choice and then live with it. In this case the choices in a very real way simply suckI can't think of an eloquent way to say that. Drew - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 23:19 +0200, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > Think about this fact: People who have been working with you guys for > 10 years or who generally have contributed their best days, their > leisure time, their jobs, to build OOo with you, well, these people, > the whole community, is moving away. That's not laughable at all, It's rather surprising it took this long really. Some of us saw this probability a number of years ago. This project has needed a foundation from day 1. It was really inevitable. Sun should have grasped that nettle. Oracle can still do it. Its an interesting premise that if anyone is a member of the LibreOffice community they are automatically excluded from the OOo community. I remember members of the MS Office user community being members of this list and getting reasonable treatment. (ok some heated debates but generally civilised). Many people use both MSO and OOo so that is a bit of a snag. I use OOo throughout my business - I might well end up using LibreOffice too if there are development differences. We are currently accrediting OpenOffice.org certificates, so am I excluded because I don't work for Oracle or because I might contribute at LibreOffice in some way? All a bit confusing really. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Op 4-10-2010 22:29, Drew Jensen schreef: On 10/04/2010 03:08 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote: Hi Drew, Op 4-10-2010 20:19, Drew Jensen schreef: On 10/04/2010 01:54 PM, Ian wrote: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? Yes Please - I would be most interested in what you perceive the different objectives to be. If I may add one more thing - this from one of the primary marketing pieces on the OO.o site: --- It's hard to believe that high quality, easy to use software like OpenOffice.org 3 can really be free. But thanks to contributions of time and money, from individuals and companies (large and small), OpenOffice.org is free for you to use today. Furthermore, the open-source licence used by OpenOffice.org 3 means this freedom can never be taken away. The OpenOffice.org community are delighted if you find our software of use. - During my time here Sun, then Oracle, was continually referred to as the primary sponsor of the community, not the community itself. You seem to be implying that, in the above, Oracle are referring to themselves as the community itself? How so? Sorry for the delay - in what may be a case of true irony, the business I have been threatening to launch for a while (BaseAnswers.com) landed it's first contract under the DBA name today , to build a custom job management system for a Canadian company, utilizing OpenOffice.org (the bid went out before all this went down) for document production and reporting. The confirmation came in as I was starting this email. (Once again proof that God has a sense of humor I think) I am saying that Sun (now Oracle) went to lengths to create a distinction between the corporate entity and the community. The excerpt I used, I believe, is but one example of this. That over this last 10 years this distinction was manifest for example in the difference between StarOffice, a corporate product, and OpenOffice.org a community project and application. Over the period which I have been personally observing events there has been numerous occasions when an individual would come to the mailing lists, or the forums, and start to ask about the Sun product OpenOffice.org. This has always been met with a swift response correcting this misconception. During the period there was also a governance structure created for the OpenOffice.org community project. In this structure there where special arrangements made to insure that the major corporate sponsor would be always represented. From my perspective there was an attempt, and to put it in terms recently used on this list, for the corporate entity to have it's cake and eat it too. Apparently it's easy to forget that it has also continuously been putting in much of the effort baking it, and that it had provided the cake in the first place. IMO the arrangement was definitely not ideal but also not particularly unfair. That over the course of this period the members of the community governing structure not employed by the major corporate sponsor felt it necessary to create a non-profit foundation. Certainly what one would call 'the community' included the major corporate sponsor. What is happening now, IMO, is that Oracle is attempting to exercise a right of veto over the aspirations of the other members of the community. I am not sure in how far it is correct to equate The Document Foundation with "the other members of the community". If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. Naturally the corporation is free to retain the registered domain name and trademark which are it's property. Although as one community member I would ask again for Oracle Corp to make those assets available to the OpenOffice.org Community. In what way haven't those been available to the OpenOffice.org community? I think I covered it above, if not please let me know. I'd say they are still available to the OpenOffice.org community, just not to the LibreOffice community. -- Best regards, Simon Brouwer. | http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Bjoern, Le 4 oct. 2010 à 20:56, Bjoern michaelsen a écrit : > > Hi Charles, > > please let me offer a personal opinion to the topic ... > > On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 19:10:34 +0200 > "Charles-H. Schulz" wrote: >> What I wanted to clarify is that it would be unwise to prohibit >> discussions on the OOo lists about TDF. It would be unwise and you >> would give the most blatant illustration that OOo is not a true >> project, and simply a product. Both of us know that's not the right >> way to work this out. > > Well, you cant have a cake and eat it too. Claiming "independence" on > the project homepage and in the very logo that started this thread, > while discussing this on a mailing list of the very organization you > claim independence from is laughable. Uploading such a logo to the wiki > provided by the very organization you claim to be in need of > replacement is outright ridiculous. Some people thought they wanted to celebrate the 10 years of OOo together as one community. I always thought it would not end up well, but hey, no good deed goes unpunished. > >> Let me stress again: we're not going to avoid this topic, and we're >> going to discuss it, publicly. No chance to cut it. > > Please do, but on _your_ public mailing lists or whatever > infrastructure you have available. While it is IMHO perfectly > appropriate and on topic to discuss technical issues of the > shared/inherited codebase on openoffice.org mailing lists, it is > totally offtopic to discuss the marketing for a derived and > marketingwise fundamentally different product. You would likely be > offended when NeoOffice, Oracle Open Office or Lotus Symphony would be > promoted on TDF mailing lists -- it is offtopic there. No. We're not NeoOffice, Lotus or Oracle Open Office: we are OpenOffice.org, and the statement that was put up by Oracle was drafted between 3 am and 3:15 am by one of your executives in a plane over the Atlantic. I know this because I met him. So don't get caught to whatever line was pushed in the message and repeat it like a mantra. Think about this fact: People who have been working with you guys for 10 years or who generally have contributed their best days, their leisure time, their jobs, to build OOo with you, well, these people, the whole community, is moving away. That's not laughable at all, think about it, and think about it hard. How could we have come up with such a crazy project for which some, if most of you will hate us for the rest of their lives? Again, think about it. > I assume nobody > had the lack of courtesy to do so. Please dont lack it here. I'm not lacking it here, and in the same way please don't lack common sense: it's us moving forward, the whole community. Feel free to put my picture on a wall and throw darts at it that helps you. Best, Charles. > > Best Regards, > > Bjoern > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hello Martin, Le 4 oct. 2010 à 19:45, Martin Hollmichel a écrit : > > Am 04.10.2010 19:10, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: >> Andreas, Luiz, >> >> Let's take a step back. Obviously verbal assault does not help and >> should not be tolerated. So let's breathe a bit and calm down. >> >> Andreas, whatever your views are on what happened, please understand >> that we, the people of the Document Foundation, are OpenOffice.org just >> as much as you are. You may be upset about what happened, perhaps even >> hate me and others, (and I understand you would be) but the fact is: >> there is no other world than this one. And in this one, the >> OpenOffice.org community has decided to move on to a next level, and >> it's called the Document Foundation. For the record, Oracle and the >> Document Foundation are very committed to dialogue between each other, >> so I'm not calling this a fork yet. And besides, when a project is >> moving on while its main sponsor isn't, the fork might rather be >> attributed to the latter... but I digress. > This looks like you've got frightened by your own courage. Please face the > facts: you and some other people have decided to fork the project. That > happens from time to time in open source projects and is itself nothing to > get frightened of. No, I'm not frightened at all; I'm just very sad that we have ended up in this, although I know there was no other alternative. So did we fork the project as you have written it? Think of it this way: Almost everyone who does not work for Oracle has either already moved to LibreOffice, or is seriously thinking about moving and just wait for the Document Foundation to open up the infrastructure. You call that a fork but I'm not sure which way it works. At the very least it shows we -as in OpenOffice.org- have become a failure. And no, it's not you, it's not me, it's many, many other things. > An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open > and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. Yes. > And they might find out then, if the different objective a worth to maintain > the fork or not. Or to put it in another way: if you join us or not :-) > We know that there were items we need to discuss about but obviously you > don't saw the need for it anymore, since you had in Budapest tons of > opportunities to do so. I still see possibilities to address many issues we > have within the established rules of the project and I'm open for discussion, > so it's your decision on how to move forward, Rest assured that if we could have worked issues inside a community process such as the ones we have inside OOo but are now almost inexistant, we would have done that, and we could have discussed them in Budapest. But it was too late, and too big to have them solved within the OOo processes. And yes, it's the community decision to move forward. Best, Charles. > > Martin > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On 10/04/2010 03:08 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote: Hi Drew, Op 4-10-2010 20:19, Drew Jensen schreef: On 10/04/2010 01:54 PM, Ian wrote: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? Yes Please - I would be most interested in what you perceive the different objectives to be. If I may add one more thing - this from one of the primary marketing pieces on the OO.o site: --- It's hard to believe that high quality, easy to use software like OpenOffice.org 3 can really be free. But thanks to contributions of time and money, from individuals and companies (large and small), OpenOffice.org is free for you to use today. Furthermore, the open-source licence used by OpenOffice.org 3 means this freedom can never be taken away. The OpenOffice.org community are delighted if you find our software of use. - During my time here Sun, then Oracle, was continually referred to as the primary sponsor of the community, not the community itself. You seem to be implying that, in the above, Oracle are referring to themselves as the community itself? How so? Sorry for the delay - in what may be a case of true irony, the business I have been threatening to launch for a while (BaseAnswers.com) landed it's first contract under the DBA name today , to build a custom job management system for a Canadian company, utilizing OpenOffice.org (the bid went out before all this went down) for document production and reporting. The confirmation came in as I was starting this email. (Once again proof that God has a sense of humor I think) I am saying that Sun (now Oracle) went to lengths to create a distinction between the corporate entity and the community. The excerpt I used, I believe, is but one example of this. That over this last 10 years this distinction was manifest for example in the difference between StarOffice, a corporate product, and OpenOffice.org a community project and application. Over the period which I have been personally observing events there has been numerous occasions when an individual would come to the mailing lists, or the forums, and start to ask about the Sun product OpenOffice.org. This has always been met with a swift response correcting this misconception. During the period there was also a governance structure created for the OpenOffice.org community project. In this structure there where special arrangements made to insure that the major corporate sponsor would be always represented. From my perspective there was an attempt, and to put it in terms recently used on this list, for the corporate entity to have it's cake and eat it too. That over the course of this period the members of the community governing structure not employed by the major corporate sponsor felt it necessary to create a non-profit foundation. Certainly what one would call 'the community' included the major corporate sponsor. What is happening now, IMO, is that Oracle is attempting to exercise a right of veto over the aspirations of the other members of the community. If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. Naturally the corporation is free to retain the registered domain name and trademark which are it's property. Although as one community member I would ask again for Oracle Corp to make those assets available to the OpenOffice.org Community. In what way haven't those been available to the OpenOffice.org community? I think I covered it above, if not please let me know. Respectfully, Drew - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Op 4-10-2010 20:19, Drew Jensen schreef: On 10/04/2010 01:54 PM, Ian wrote: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? Yes Please - I would be most interested in what you perceive the different objectives to be. If I may add one more thing - this from one of the primary marketing pieces on the OO.o site: --- It's hard to believe that high quality, easy to use software like OpenOffice.org 3 can really be free. But thanks to contributions of time and money, from individuals and companies (large and small), OpenOffice.org is free for you to use today. Furthermore, the open-source licence used by OpenOffice.org 3 means this freedom can never be taken away. The OpenOffice.org community are delighted if you find our software of use. - During my time here Sun, then Oracle, was continually referred to as the primary sponsor of the community, not the community itself. You seem to be implying that, in the above, Oracle are referring to themselves as the community itself? How so? If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. Naturally the corporation is free to retain the registered domain name and trademark which are it's property. Although as one community member I would ask again for Oracle Corp to make those assets available to the OpenOffice.org Community. In what way haven't those been available to the OpenOffice.org community? -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer. | http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Charles, please let me offer a personal opinion to the topic ... On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 19:10:34 +0200 "Charles-H. Schulz" wrote: > What I wanted to clarify is that it would be unwise to prohibit > discussions on the OOo lists about TDF. It would be unwise and you > would give the most blatant illustration that OOo is not a true > project, and simply a product. Both of us know that's not the right > way to work this out. Well, you cant have a cake and eat it too. Claiming "independence" on the project homepage and in the very logo that started this thread, while discussing this on a mailing list of the very organization you claim independence from is laughable. Uploading such a logo to the wiki provided by the very organization you claim to be in need of replacement is outright ridiculous. > Let me stress again: we're not going to avoid this topic, and we're > going to discuss it, publicly. No chance to cut it. Please do, but on _your_ public mailing lists or whatever infrastructure you have available. While it is IMHO perfectly appropriate and on topic to discuss technical issues of the shared/inherited codebase on openoffice.org mailing lists, it is totally offtopic to discuss the marketing for a derived and marketingwise fundamentally different product. You would likely be offended when NeoOffice, Oracle Open Office or Lotus Symphony would be promoted on TDF mailing lists -- it is offtopic there. I assume nobody had the lack of courtesy to do so. Please dont lack it here. Best Regards, Bjoern - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Martin, Le 4 oct. 10 à 20:37, Martin Hollmichel a écrit : If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. The representatives of that other Project got an answer to their letter to Oracle, I honestly don't know if they made this public or not but I assume so. Interesting :-/ And when did Oracle answer ? (if you got the information) Thanks, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Drew, Am 04.10.2010 20:19, schrieb Drew Jensen: On 10/04/2010 01:54 PM, Ian wrote: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? Yes Please - I would be most interested in what you perceive the different objectives to be. maybe you should read the announcement and faq of the Document Foundation, there I would expect the objectives of that project explained. If you don't understand those, ask them but not me, If I may add one more thing - this from one of the primary marketing pieces on the OO.o site: --- It's hard to believe that high quality, easy to use software like OpenOffice.org 3 can really be free. But thanks to contributions of time and money, from individuals and companies (large and small), OpenOffice.org is free for you to use today. Furthermore, the open-source licence used by OpenOffice.org 3 means this freedom can never be taken away. The OpenOffice.org community are delighted if you find our software of use. - During my time here Sun, then Oracle, was continually referred to as the primary sponsor of the community, not the community itself. If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. The representatives of that other Project got an answer to their letter to Oracle, I honestly don't know if they made this public or not but I assume so. Naturally the corporation is free to retain the registered domain name and trademark which are it's property. Although as one community member I would ask again for Oracle Corp to make those assets available to the OpenOffice.org Community. Please understand that I again speak only for myself. Looking forward to your reply. Sincerely, Drew Jensen Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On 10/04/2010 01:54 PM, Ian wrote: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? Yes Please - I would be most interested in what you perceive the different objectives to be. If I may add one more thing - this from one of the primary marketing pieces on the OO.o site: --- It's hard to believe that high quality, easy to use software like OpenOffice.org 3 can really be free. But thanks to contributions of time and money, from individuals and companies (large and small), OpenOffice.org is free for you to use today. Furthermore, the open-source licence used by OpenOffice.org 3 means this freedom can never be taken away. The OpenOffice.org community are delighted if you find our software of use. - During my time here Sun, then Oracle, was continually referred to as the primary sponsor of the community, not the community itself. If Oracle no longer feels that it's objectives are in alignment with those of the community at large, and therefore no longer willing to sponsor the OpenOffice.org Community, then I believe it best to make that statement publicly, clearly and without obfuscation. Naturally the corporation is free to retain the registered domain name and trademark which are it's property. Although as one community member I would ask again for Oracle Corp to make those assets available to the OpenOffice.org Community. Please understand that I again speak only for myself. Looking forward to your reply. Sincerely, Drew Jensen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On 04/10/2010 18:54, Ian wrote: [cut] Do you really want a receipt notification from everyone on this list, Ian? Methinks your signature needs a tweak. ;-) Peter HB - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 19:45 +0200, Martin Hollmichel wrote: > An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog > open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. What are the different objectives of the two projects in your view Martin? -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am 04.10.2010 19:10, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Andreas, Luiz, Let's take a step back. Obviously verbal assault does not help and should not be tolerated. So let's breathe a bit and calm down. Andreas, whatever your views are on what happened, please understand that we, the people of the Document Foundation, are OpenOffice.org just as much as you are. You may be upset about what happened, perhaps even hate me and others, (and I understand you would be) but the fact is: there is no other world than this one. And in this one, the OpenOffice.org community has decided to move on to a next level, and it's called the Document Foundation. For the record, Oracle and the Document Foundation are very committed to dialogue between each other, so I'm not calling this a fork yet. And besides, when a project is moving on while its main sponsor isn't, the fork might rather be attributed to the latter... but I digress. This looks like you've got frightened by your own courage. Please face the facts: you and some other people have decided to fork the project. That happens from time to time in open source projects and is itself nothing to get frightened of. An important point indeed is that both side keep the constructive dialog open and trying to find compromises between their different objectives. And they might find out then, if the different objective a worth to maintain the fork or not. We know that there were items we need to discuss about but obviously you don't saw the need for it anymore, since you had in Budapest tons of opportunities to do so. I still see possibilities to address many issues we have within the established rules of the project and I'm open for discussion, so it's your decision on how to move forward, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
What I wanted to clarify is that it would be unwise to prohibit discussions on the OOo lists about TDF. It would be unwise and you would give the most blatant illustration that OOo is not a true project, and simply a product. Both of us know that's not the right way to work this out. nobody prohibits discussions about the relation of OpenOffice.org to it's derivatives and forks but so far it was good habbit the the work of any derived product happens elsewhere but not here. Within the OpenOffice.org we want to work on common ground, but not about strategies and deliverables of derived products like NeoOffice, OxygeneOffice, Lotus Symphony, StarOffice/Oracle Open Office, etc. So it is you trying to change the established rules of the OpenOffice.org project to promote your derivative and not the OOo project is changing it's rules, Martin Best, Charles-H. Schulz. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Andreas, Luiz, Let's take a step back. Obviously verbal assault does not help and should not be tolerated. So let's breathe a bit and calm down. Andreas, whatever your views are on what happened, please understand that we, the people of the Document Foundation, are OpenOffice.org just as much as you are. You may be upset about what happened, perhaps even hate me and others, (and I understand you would be) but the fact is: there is no other world than this one. And in this one, the OpenOffice.org community has decided to move on to a next level, and it's called the Document Foundation. For the record, Oracle and the Document Foundation are very committed to dialogue between each other, so I'm not calling this a fork yet. And besides, when a project is moving on while its main sponsor isn't, the fork might rather be attributed to the latter... but I digress. What I wanted to clarify is that it would be unwise to prohibit discussions on the OOo lists about TDF. It would be unwise and you would give the most blatant illustration that OOo is not a true project, and simply a product. Both of us know that's not the right way to work this out. Let me stress again: we're not going to avoid this topic, and we're going to discuss it, publicly. No chance to cut it. Best, Charles-H. Schulz. Le Mon, 04 Oct 2010 18:47:02 +0200, Andreas Bartel a écrit : > Hi Luiz, > > I would highly appreciate a different style of communication. This is > a public list and we certainly do not want to promote verbal > assaults, who ever you have been addressing in your previous > statement. > > Thanks a lot! > Andreas > > Am 04.10.2010 18:27, schrieb luiz: > > hi, > > > > Oracle knows how to threaten people covertly, not publicly takes his > > actions behind the scenes. It is a coward! Go to OOcon to talk about > > motorcycle trips, while the whole world expected a strong position > > on the destination of the product she bought. > > > > Oracle purchased a product, not consciousness, much less the > > community of developers and hundreds of contributors around the > > world, which enhances the OOo code and makes the dissemination of > > the product for ten years. And then you talk about fork? > > > > Luiz Oliveira > > > > > >> Am 04.10.2010 17:55, schrieb Ian: > >>> On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 12:08 -0300, luiz wrote: > Hi, > > > huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as > > balanced, The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this > > is not OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign > > for say, Macs, prepared for the future by the independent > > and consumer driven Bung company ;-)) > +1 > >>> So does this mean Oracle is not very happy with the Document > >>> Foundation? > >> as a member of the OpenOffice.org Community Counsil and from my > >> personal view of the discussions that are currently happening on > >> various OpenOffice.org lists, I would say that it is most > >> inappropriate to misuse the OpenOffice.org project to discuss and > >> promote a fork. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Andreas > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer > >> Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 > >> Oracle OFFICE GBU > >> > >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V.& Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg > >> > >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V.& Co. KG > >> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München > >> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 > >> > >> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > >> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande > >> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > >> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van > >> der Ven > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Oracle is committed to developing > >> practices and products that help > >> protect the environment > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Luiz, I would highly appreciate a different style of communication. This is a public list and we certainly do not want to promote verbal assaults, who ever you have been addressing in your previous statement. Thanks a lot! Andreas Am 04.10.2010 18:27, schrieb luiz: hi, Oracle knows how to threaten people covertly, not publicly takes his actions behind the scenes. It is a coward! Go to OOcon to talk about motorcycle trips, while the whole world expected a strong position on the destination of the product she bought. Oracle purchased a product, not consciousness, much less the community of developers and hundreds of contributors around the world, which enhances the OOo code and makes the dissemination of the product for ten years. And then you talk about fork? Luiz Oliveira Am 04.10.2010 17:55, schrieb Ian: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 12:08 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer driven Bung company ;-)) +1 So does this mean Oracle is not very happy with the Document Foundation? as a member of the OpenOffice.org Community Counsil and from my personal view of the discussions that are currently happening on various OpenOffice.org lists, I would say that it is most inappropriate to misuse the OpenOffice.org project to discuss and promote a fork. Best regards, Andreas -- Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org -- Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
hi, Oracle knows how to threaten people covertly, not publicly takes his actions behind the scenes. It is a coward! Go to OOcon to talk about motorcycle trips, while the whole world expected a strong position on the destination of the product she bought. Oracle purchased a product, not consciousness, much less the community of developers and hundreds of contributors around the world, which enhances the OOo code and makes the dissemination of the product for ten years. And then you talk about fork? Luiz Oliveira > Am 04.10.2010 17:55, schrieb Ian: > > On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 12:08 -0300, luiz wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > > huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, > > > > The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not > > > > OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, > > > > Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer > > > > driven > > > > Bung company ;-)) > > > +1 > > So does this mean Oracle is not very happy with the Document > > Foundation? > as a member of the OpenOffice.org Community Counsil and from my > personal view of the discussions that are currently happening on > various OpenOffice.org lists, I would say that it is most > inappropriate to misuse the OpenOffice.org project to discuss and > promote a fork. > > Best regards, > Andreas > > -- > > > > Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer > Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 > Oracle OFFICE GBU > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München > Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 > > Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der > Ven > > > > > Oracle is committed to developing > practices and products that help > protect the environment > > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Dear Ian, Am 04.10.2010 17:55, schrieb Ian: On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 12:08 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer driven Bung company ;-)) +1 So does this mean Oracle is not very happy with the Document Foundation? as a member of the OpenOffice.org Community Counsil and from my personal view of the discussions that are currently happening on various OpenOffice.org lists, I would say that it is most inappropriate to misuse the OpenOffice.org project to discuss and promote a fork. Best regards, Andreas -- Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 12:08 -0300, luiz wrote: > Hi, > > > huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, > > The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not > > OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, > > Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer driven > > Bung company ;-)) > > +1 So does this mean Oracle is not very happy with the Document Foundation? -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi, > huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, > The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not > OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, > Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer driven > Bung company ;-)) +1 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am 04.10.2010 15:33, schrieb Paula Carmichael: Checked the Logo and just want to say it is very balanced and tells the story creatively. GOOD JOB to all on this project. huh ? I don't understand how this logo can be considered as balanced, The DocumentFoundation has it's own product, and this is not OpenOffice.org, (/me is thinking of a similar campaign for say, Macs, prepared for the future by the independent and consumer driven Bung company ;-)) Martin Paula Carmichael Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:46:55 +0200 From: m...@openoffice.org To: dev@marketing.openoffice.org Subject: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval Hi Bernhard, Am 02.10.2010 00:55, schrieb Bernhard Dippold: Hi all, if I counted correctly, there have been 9 clear +1 votes and 4 mainly positive reactions with some questions / reservation. In my eyes this qualifies the logo to be called "official". Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Based on a design by Miguel Boto, a new member of the Art Project, I created a logo that I request approval as official 10th anniverary logo for: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10.png Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect our community's rights and broadening support to people and organizations not willing to contribute to a single company steered project, I added a badge to the logo: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png issues regarding the Document Foundation should be discussed within that project, not within OpenOffice.org. I consider such marketing materials as a conflict of interests between two projects with different objectives. I'd appreciate the removal of that material and also would expect the discussion of LibreOffice related issues to happen elsewhere but not here. Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Bernhard, Am 02.10.2010 00:55, schrieb Bernhard Dippold: Hi all, if I counted correctly, there have been 9 clear +1 votes and 4 mainly positive reactions with some questions / reservation. In my eyes this qualifies the logo to be called "official". Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Based on a design by Miguel Boto, a new member of the Art Project, I created a logo that I request approval as official 10th anniverary logo for: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10.png Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect our community's rights and broadening support to people and organizations not willing to contribute to a single company steered project, I added a badge to the logo: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png issues regarding the Document Foundation should be discussed within that project, not within OpenOffice.org. I consider such marketing materials as a conflict of interests between two projects with different objectives. I'd appreciate the removal of that material and also would expect the discussion of LibreOffice related issues to happen elsewhere but not here. Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
RE: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Checked the Logo and just want to say it is very balanced and tells the story creatively. GOOD JOB to all on this project. Paula Carmichael > Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:46:55 +0200 > From: m...@openoffice.org > To: dev@marketing.openoffice.org > Subject: Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for > approval > > Hi Bernhard, > > Am 02.10.2010 00:55, schrieb Bernhard Dippold: > > Hi all, > > > > if I counted correctly, there have been 9 clear +1 votes and 4 mainly > > positive reactions with some questions / reservation. > > > > In my eyes this qualifies the logo to be called "official". > > > > Bernhard Dippold schrieb: > >> > >> Based on a design by Miguel Boto, a new member of the Art Project, I > >> created a logo that I request approval as official 10th anniverary > >> logo for: > >> > >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10.png > > > > Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document > > Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect > > our community's rights and broadening support to people and > > organizations not willing to contribute to a single company steered > > project, I added a badge to the logo: > > > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png > > > issues regarding the Document Foundation should be discussed within that > project, not within OpenOffice.org. > I consider such marketing materials as a conflict of interests between > two projects with different objectives. I'd appreciate the removal of > that material and also would expect the discussion of LibreOffice > related issues to happen elsewhere but not here. > > Martin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org >
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary
Hi Goran, all, Goran Rakic schrieb: У суб, 02. 10 2010. у 13:53 +0200, Dr. Bernhard Dippold пише: Do you want the logo with capitalized "G" / "Г"? Small caps will be better, but if it for design, it can be capitalized. For design, both are not optimal (too short words), but I used the lower case. Please have a look: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:BeDipp#personal_sandbox Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary
У суб, 02. 10 2010. у 13:53 +0200, Dr. Bernhard Dippold пише: > > Do you want the logo with capitalized "G" / "Г"? Small caps will be better, but if it for design, it can be capitalized. > I'll do it as soon as possible. Not a problem, thanks a lot. Have a nice trip. Kind regards, Goran Rakic - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary
Bernhard Dippold wrote: > Here you are: > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_it.png Thanks -- Italo Vignoli Mobile: +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Email: italo.vign...@gmail.com - Skype: italovignoli - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary
Hi Goran, all > Hi Bernhard, all, > > Serbian Cyrillic > 10 година > > Serbian Latin > 10 godina > Do you want the logo with capitalized "G" / "Г"? It might take some days to create them because I don't have Internet access with my computer today and have to travel for a few days from tomorrow on. I'll do it as soon as possible. Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Bernhard, all, Serbian Cyrillic 10 година Serbian Latin 10 godina Thanks, Goran Rakic - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Danishka, all > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Bernhard Dippold > wrote: > >[...] > > > > Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document > > Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect our > > community's rights and broadening support to people and organizations not > > willing to contribute to a single company steered project, I added a badge > > to the logo: > > > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png > > > > Good work! > > But can we use TDF logo with OO.org logo? As the Document Foundation is part of our community's activities, I don't see a real problem using them together. I didn't add LibreOffice because this might be looked at as fork, even if it is just the same product under the same license without the need to sign CA/SCA/JCA or any other copyright agreement that allows others to re-license your work without your agreement. I still hope that Oracle management will understand the reasons for establishing this foundation and see the advantages of an independent foundation. On the other hand I did everything possible to avoid conflicts: The anniversary logo refers to the original product and community. It keeps the distances we agreed upon for community purposes. The TDF badge is far away from the OOo logo, so it doesn't interfere with any whitespace rules. > > OpenOffice.org logo is not a part of TDF yet. That's right, hopefully this will change ... > > I like the way you think :) :-) Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > Hi all, > > if I counted correctly, there have been 9 clear +1 votes and 4 mainly > positive reactions with some questions / reservation. > > In my eyes this qualifies the logo to be called "official". > > Bernhard Dippold schrieb: >> >> Based on a design by Miguel Boto, a new member of the Art Project, I >> created a logo that I request approval as official 10th anniverary >> logo for: >> >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10.png > > Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document > Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect our > community's rights and broadening support to people and organizations not > willing to contribute to a single company steered project, I added a badge > to the logo: > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png > Good work! But can we use TDF logo with OO.org logo? OpenOffice.org logo is not a part of TDF yet. I like the way you think :) -- Danishka Navin http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/danishkanavin http://identi.ca/danishka - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Alexandro Colorado schrieb: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Italo Vignoliwrote: Bernhard Dippold wrote: Are you interested in a localized version of the badge? Just translate the text and I'll add it to the localized versions of the logo I already created: Italiano 10° Anniversario Español 10° Aniversario already there: Please read my previous mail or have a look: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:BeDipp#personal_sandbox Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary
Italo Vignoli schrieb: Bernhard Dippold wrote: Are you interested in a localized version of the badge? Just translate the text and I'll add it to the localized versions of the logo I already created: Italiano 10° Anniversario Thanks, Italo Here you are: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_it.png Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: > Bernhard Dippold wrote: > > > Are you interested in a localized version of the badge? Just translate > > the text and I'll add it to the localized versions of the logo I already > > created: > > Italiano > > 10° Anniversario > Español 10° Aniversario > > Thanks, Italo > > -- > Italo Vignoli > Mobile: +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 > Email: italo.vign...@gmail.com - Skype: italovignoli > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > -- *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Español http://es.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Bernhard Dippold wrote: > Are you interested in a localized version of the badge? Just translate > the text and I'll add it to the localized versions of the logo I already > created: Italiano 10° Anniversario Thanks, Italo -- Italo Vignoli Mobile: +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Email: italo.vign...@gmail.com - Skype: italovignoli - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi all, if I counted correctly, there have been 9 clear +1 votes and 4 mainly positive reactions with some questions / reservation. In my eyes this qualifies the logo to be called "official". Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Based on a design by Miguel Boto, a new member of the Art Project, I created a logo that I request approval as official 10th anniverary logo for: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10.png Due to the present situation in our community with the new Document Foundation creating a legal community driven entity able to protect our community's rights and broadening support to people and organizations not willing to contribute to a single company steered project, I added a badge to the logo: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_DFbadge.png Are you interested in a localized version of the badge? Just translate the text and I'll add it to the localized versions of the logo I already created: German: 10ter Geburtstag http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_de.png French: 10ème Anniversaire http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_fr.png Spanish: 10º Aniversario http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_es.png Dutch/Flemish: 10e Verjaardag http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOo10_nl.png (is it allowed to capitalize "verjaardag"?) Best regards Bernhard PS: If you need different sizes of the logo, please avoid scaling as it leads to lower quality. Just drop me a line about the necessary size and I'll export it for you. The present logo (without badge) is 300x300 px, minimum size is 120x120 px, because this respects the minimal size of the OOo logo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
