[freenet-dev] Moving to Java 1.6???

[Clément Vollet]

Le jeudi 28 octobre 2010 17:03:17, Samu Voutilainen a ?crit :
> On Thursday 28 October 2010 16:05:58 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Thursday 28 October 2010 13:21:36 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > > It would simplify the build process and enable us to use new language
> > > features if we moved to Java 1.6. The problem is: 1) Mac OS/X 10.4
> > > only has Java 5. As I understand it you have to pay for upgrades, and
> > > they are disruptive, so most people don't? 2) It would slightly
> > > increase the difficulty of getting Freenet working on free JVMs.
> > 
> > 3) Some users with older installs may still have Java 1.5. How many is
> > uncertain - on Windows they should have been told to upgrade by the
> > auto-updater, shouldn't they? Most linuxes have java 6 now but some
> > might still be using 5?
> > 
> > > Is it worth doing it anyway? How many people run OS/X 10.4 nowadays?
> 
> I?ll answer from my point of view, and not trying to estimate freeneet
> users...
> 
> No-one uses Java 1.5 anymore.
> 
> On Windows, people gets update notifications all the time, Java has
> autoupdater and overall people who knows about something wants to use
> newest software, so they try  not to block Java.
> 
> On Mac OS X, 10.4 is just old, and active OSX users will upgrade they?ll
> computers to get new operating systems.
> 
> On Linux... I suppose most of you are Linux users? Java 1.5 is just old and
> unnecessary. Nowadays most distros provide icedtea based java builds by
> default, as they are free as opposed to sun-jdk.

And might I add that it seems that Java 1.5 isn't supported anymore : 
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index-jdk5-
jsp-142662.html

[freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le samedi 18 septembre 2010 19:45:30, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> 2010/9/18 Cl?ment Vollet :
> > Ok, then, should I proceed like that :
> > 
> > - adding a templating system,
> > - design a new UI, and implement it in HTML + CSS only,
> > - add GWT support (well, use it if it's already implemented) to make it
> > more dynamic.
> 
> If we are going to use GWT we should really be using it for the entire
> UI, but not for the "proxy" component of fproxy, which displays pages
> retrieved from Freenet.  Based on my understanding of GWT it is
> designed for creating UIs in a browser, which is what we need, but it
> is not designed to degrade gracefully if Javascript isn't supported.
> 
> I find the whole argument that we must support people who don't want
> to enable javascript to be unpersuasive.  We can and do filter out any
> javascript from any page retrieved from Freenet so that isn't the
> issue.  We are talking about people refusing to run Javascript that is
> written by us and served up by the Freenet node to their browser.  It
> is no more dangerous for someone to run Javascript written by us in
> their browser, than it is for them to run Java code written by us in
> their operating system.
> 
> Given that disabling Javascript with Freenet does nothing to improve a
> user's security, can someone remind me why our entire approach to a UI
> redesign is predicated on supporting those that irrationally insist on
> disabling Javascript in their browsers?  Why must we inconvenience 99%
> of our users to accomodate the irrational 1%?
> 
Well, a (good?) reason could be for those using text-browsers (on remote 
access, it is probably faster). But, I thought that we agreed last time that 
we were going to keep FProxy as a UI for those who don't want to use 
javascript, and build a new one for those who don't care. The overhead 
shouldn't be too consequent, especially if we introduce a template system for 
FProxy.

This way, we satisfy both needs, and we can keep FProxy for operations not 
being supported by the new UI (it may take some time before we achieve feature 
parity with FProxy).

Does this seem reasonable?

> Ian.

[freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le samedi 18 septembre 2010 15:28:49, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Saturday 18 September 2010 00:42:19 cvollet at gmail.com wrote:
> > 2010/9/18 Ian Clarke 
> > 
> > > Timing is pretty good, Google just released GWT Designer for free:
> > >  http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/tools/download-gwtdesigner.html
> > > 
> > > Its an eclipse plugin that helps you build GWT UIs.
> > > 
> > > Does it produces clean code ?
> > > 
> > > I would suggest if you are going to do anything you should build a
> > > mock-up first so that we can discuss it and you can get feedback from
> > > others.
> > > 
> > > Yep, that's what I intended to do. Just wanted to check if someone
> > > already
> > 
> > was invested in this. I'll try to do some mockups over the week-end.
> 
> Mock-ups are great, templating is great if it simplifies the code, doesn't
> pull in huge run-time libraries and doesn't reduce performance
> significantly, but I strongly object to anything that makes Freenet
> unusable without Javascript enabled. Some of our users really are staking
> their freedom, and turn off javascript accordingly since it is a vector
> for a great many bugs. Admittedly they are naive to do so give the current
> state of Freenet security, but we shouldn't make a bad situation worse. Or
> their systems are slow. Or they are completely blind and find lynx with a
> screenreader the most convenient solution. Etc.
> 
> GWT can be used to update real HTML in-place. Any design you can build with
> widgets you can build with HTML and then "animate"/live-update by changing
> the HTML. Our current web-pushing code does this. It is disabled because
> of bugs/architectural issues. IMHO we should fix these issues and then
> enable it. That would also solve the problem with the minimalist theme's
> use of activelinks.
> 
Ok, then, should I proceed like that :

- adding a templating system,
- design a new UI, and implement it in HTML + CSS only,
- add GWT support (well, use it if it's already implemented) to make it more 
dynamic.

?

If it's the way to go, is there any templating system you could suggest?

> > > Ian.
> > > 
> > > 2010/9/17 Cl?ment Vollet :
> > > > Le jeudi 16 septembre 2010 22:14:49, cvollet at gmail.com a ?crit :
> > > >> Hello all,
> > > >> 
> > > >> Just to ask: is there anything new regarding the new ui?
> > > >> 
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> 
> > > >> Dieppe
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, if noone is working on the ui in gwt, I'd like to step in (I
> > > > won't
> > > 
> > > promise
> > > 
> > > > anything this time though), since I have some time free and I want to
> > > 
> > > play
> > > 
> > > > with GWT. So, it would be the occasion to give Freenet a shiny new
> > > > ui.
> > > 
> > > Iirc,
> > > 
> > > > last time it was discussed, the solution was to have one UI with GWT
> > > > and
> > > 
> > > keep
> > > 
> > > > it simple, and keep FProxy for advanced usages.
> > > > 
> > > > So, if it's ok with everyone, I'll begin working on that soon (as
> > > > soon as
> > > 
> > > I
> > > 
> > > > get an answer, I don't want to step on anyone foot like last time
> > > > with
> > > 
> > > the
> > > 
> > > > website).
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > 
> > > > Dieppe

Re: [freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le samedi 18 septembre 2010 15:28:49, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Saturday 18 September 2010 00:42:19 cvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  2010/9/18 Ian Clarke i...@sensearray.com
  
   Timing is pretty good, Google just released GWT Designer for free:
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/tools/download-gwtdesigner.html
   
   Its an eclipse plugin that helps you build GWT UIs.
   
   Does it produces clean code ?
   
   I would suggest if you are going to do anything you should build a
   mock-up first so that we can discuss it and you can get feedback from
   others.
   
   Yep, that's what I intended to do. Just wanted to check if someone
   already
  
  was invested in this. I'll try to do some mockups over the week-end.
 
 Mock-ups are great, templating is great if it simplifies the code, doesn't
 pull in huge run-time libraries and doesn't reduce performance
 significantly, but I strongly object to anything that makes Freenet
 unusable without Javascript enabled. Some of our users really are staking
 their freedom, and turn off javascript accordingly since it is a vector
 for a great many bugs. Admittedly they are naive to do so give the current
 state of Freenet security, but we shouldn't make a bad situation worse. Or
 their systems are slow. Or they are completely blind and find lynx with a
 screenreader the most convenient solution. Etc.
 
 GWT can be used to update real HTML in-place. Any design you can build with
 widgets you can build with HTML and then animate/live-update by changing
 the HTML. Our current web-pushing code does this. It is disabled because
 of bugs/architectural issues. IMHO we should fix these issues and then
 enable it. That would also solve the problem with the minimalist theme's
 use of activelinks.
 
Ok, then, should I proceed like that :

- adding a templating system,
- design a new UI, and implement it in HTML + CSS only,
- add GWT support (well, use it if it's already implemented) to make it more 
dynamic.

?

If it's the way to go, is there any templating system you could suggest?

   Ian.
   
   2010/9/17 Clément Vollet cvol...@gmail.com:
Le jeudi 16 septembre 2010 22:14:49, cvol...@gmail.com a écrit :
Hello all,

Just to ask: is there anything new regarding the new ui?

Regards,

Dieppe

Ok, if noone is working on the ui in gwt, I'd like to step in (I
won't
   
   promise
   
anything this time though), since I have some time free and I want to
   
   play
   
with GWT. So, it would be the occasion to give Freenet a shiny new
ui.
   
   Iirc,
   
last time it was discussed, the solution was to have one UI with GWT
and
   
   keep
   
it simple, and keep FProxy for advanced usages.

So, if it's ok with everyone, I'll begin working on that soon (as
soon as
   
   I
   
get an answer, I don't want to step on anyone foot like last time
with
   
   the
   
website).

Regards,

Dieppe
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Re: [freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le samedi 18 septembre 2010 19:45:30, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 2010/9/18 Clément Vollet cvol...@gmail.com:
  Ok, then, should I proceed like that :
  
  - adding a templating system,
  - design a new UI, and implement it in HTML + CSS only,
  - add GWT support (well, use it if it's already implemented) to make it
  more dynamic.
 
 If we are going to use GWT we should really be using it for the entire
 UI, but not for the proxy component of fproxy, which displays pages
 retrieved from Freenet.  Based on my understanding of GWT it is
 designed for creating UIs in a browser, which is what we need, but it
 is not designed to degrade gracefully if Javascript isn't supported.
 
 I find the whole argument that we must support people who don't want
 to enable javascript to be unpersuasive.  We can and do filter out any
 javascript from any page retrieved from Freenet so that isn't the
 issue.  We are talking about people refusing to run Javascript that is
 written by us and served up by the Freenet node to their browser.  It
 is no more dangerous for someone to run Javascript written by us in
 their browser, than it is for them to run Java code written by us in
 their operating system.
 
 Given that disabling Javascript with Freenet does nothing to improve a
 user's security, can someone remind me why our entire approach to a UI
 redesign is predicated on supporting those that irrationally insist on
 disabling Javascript in their browsers?  Why must we inconvenience 99%
 of our users to accomodate the irrational 1%?
 
Well, a (good?) reason could be for those using text-browsers (on remote 
access, it is probably faster). But, I thought that we agreed last time that 
we were going to keep FProxy as a UI for those who don't want to use 
javascript, and build a new one for those who don't care. The overhead 
shouldn't be too consequent, especially if we introduce a template system for 
FProxy.

This way, we satisfy both needs, and we can keep FProxy for operations not 
being supported by the new UI (it may take some time before we achieve feature 
parity with FProxy).

Does this seem reasonable?

 Ian.
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[freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le jeudi 16 septembre 2010 22:14:49, cvollet at gmail.com a ?crit :
> Hello all,
> 
> Just to ask: is there anything new regarding the new ui?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dieppe

Ok, if noone is working on the ui in gwt, I'd like to step in (I won't promise 
anything this time though), since I have some time free and I want to play 
with GWT. So, it would be the occasion to give Freenet a shiny new ui. Iirc, 
last time it was discussed, the solution was to have one UI with GWT and keep 
it simple, and keep FProxy for advanced usages.

So, if it's ok with everyone, I'll begin working on that soon (as soon as I 
get an answer, I don't want to step on anyone foot like last time with the 
website).

Regards,

Dieppe

Re: [freenet-dev] News about the ui?

[Clément Vollet]

Le jeudi 16 septembre 2010 22:14:49, cvol...@gmail.com a écrit :
 Hello all,
 
 Just to ask: is there anything new regarding the new ui?
 
 Regards,
 
 Dieppe

Ok, if noone is working on the ui in gwt, I'd like to step in (I won't promise 
anything this time though), since I have some time free and I want to play 
with GWT. So, it would be the occasion to give Freenet a shiny new ui. Iirc, 
last time it was discussed, the solution was to have one UI with GWT and keep 
it simple, and keep FProxy for advanced usages.

So, if it's ok with everyone, I'll begin working on that soon (as soon as I 
get an answer, I don't want to step on anyone foot like last time with the 
website).

Regards,

Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] French wiki rss feed down

[Clément Vollet]

Le jeudi 01 avril 2010 20:05:11, Ximin Luo a ?crit :
> should be fixed; let me know if it isn't.
> 
> X
> 

It works. Thanks :)

Re: [freenet-dev] French wiki rss feed down

[Clément Vollet]

Le jeudi 01 avril 2010 20:05:11, Ximin Luo a écrit :
 should be fixed; let me know if it isn't.
 
 X
 

It works. Thanks :)
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[freenet-dev] Using sonar

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

I tested sonar, a tool to analyze java code, and product reports (more 
informations on : http://sonar.codehaus.org/).

The results are good afaics, but there are some "errors" detected.
And I think it would be useful to use a tool like that for freenet. We could 
set it up on I-don't-remember-the-new-server-name, and access it through a web 
interface.

With the report I made, it shows some interesting things, like methods which 
are too complex, or class which should be refactored, some standard rules 
violation, code duplication, suspect dependencies, ...

It also allow us to see the unit test coverage, but I don't know exactly how 
^^"

Anyway, what do you think of this ? Code quality is always a good thing, right 
?

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] Using sonar

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

I tested sonar, a tool to analyze java code, and product reports (more 
informations on : http://sonar.codehaus.org/).

The results are good afaics, but there are some errors detected.
And I think it would be useful to use a tool like that for freenet. We could 
set it up on I-don't-remember-the-new-server-name, and access it through a web 
interface.

With the report I made, it shows some interesting things, like methods which 
are too complex, or class which should be refactored, some standard rules 
violation, code duplication, suspect dependencies, ...

It also allow us to see the unit test coverage, but I don't know exactly how 
^^

Anyway, what do you think of this ? Code quality is always a good thing, right 
?

Regards,

Dieppe

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[freenet-dev] Bookmarks menu was Re: Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 13 F?vrier 2010 21:53:41, Evan Daniel a ?crit :
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Matthew Toseland
> 
>  wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 February 2010 04:10:53 Ian Clarke wrote:
> >> Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the
> >> new front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the
> >> final UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as
> >> possible, and ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established
> >> UI conventions.
> > 
> > The new UI moves the bookmarks to a menu. Is that a good idea? I think on
> > the whole it probably is, I'm just a bit worried about expectation
> > management / drawing the user's attention to what is likely to work
> > quickly.
> > 
> > If it is in fact a good idea then we could implement it with the current
> > code relatively easily - we'd need a CSS guru to provide us with nested
> > menu support - and get rid of the activelinks on the minimalist theme,
> > and deploy the minimalist theme as the default. Or we could show the
> > activelinks as part of the menu, or show them anyway but only for sites
> > with activelinks - but I don't want a theme that requires activelinks to
> > be default before web-pushing is merged and enabled by default.
> 
> I'm not a CSS guru, but some googling turns up this:
> http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html
> 
> > Any thoughts on bookmarks as a menu?
> 
> I think it's important the the main page we display provide an obvious
> answer to "so what do I do now?"  Right now the choices seem to be
> "search for something" and "visit a bookmark."  As long as it's clear
> what to do from the start page for someone who hasn't used Freenet
> before, I'm fine with bookmarks in a menu.
> 
Maybe we could let the user set some favorites bookmarks on the front page, 
and the other would be in the bookmark page. This way, you still can access 
your favorite bookmarks quickly, the front page is not overwhelmed, and we can 
present the user some bookmarks on the first start.
> Evan Daniel
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[freenet-dev] Make clearer which ideas have been rejected, and why

[Clément Vollet]

I quote the FAQ:

I have this great idea
Good! First step: read the mailing list archives. Odds are good that someone 
else had the same idea and discussed it with the group. Either a flaw was 
found in the idea, or perhaps it was decided to postpone implementing the idea 
until later. Some examples of ideas already discussed are storing information 
by content hash, key redirection, signed keys/data, use of UDP, server 
discovery, URLs, document versioning, and others. If you don't see the idea 
discussed in the archives, by all means bring it up in the appropriate mailing 
list.

This approach has some drawbacks:
- you can't be sure it hasn't be discussed in the mailing list because 
searching isn't 100% reliable
- it is a big step, and can freak some potential contributors

Maybe, we could, from now one, when a idea is discussed, and accepted or 
rejected, put it in the wiki, under the right category, with the reasons.
This way, a potential contributor is sure his idea has been discussed (or 
not), and it is really easy to find that out.

I know this method has a major drawback : a lot of ideas has already been 
discussed, and if we don't ask the user to read the archives, some may present 
an already discussed idea.
But I don't think that's a problem, since now, I don't think the user bother 
to search at all, or very quickly.

-- next part --
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[freenet-dev] Is this FAQ answer outdated?

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

As I was translating the FAQ, I saw this answer, which seems a bit outdated to 
me:

If I publish something in Freenet, how will people find it? Don't they have to 
know the key I used?
Yes, people will have to know what key you used to publish your information. 
This means you will have to announce your key in some way. 
The most common way to do this is to send a message, containing your key and 
brief description of your information, to the author of one of the existing 
Freenet sites. Most of the "portal" sites which are linked from the Freenet 
web interface (fproxy) have a submission form which lets you send them 
messages anonymously. You could also send your key to people by using the 
Freenet mailing lists, in the IRC channel (irc.freenode.net #freenet), by 
private e-mail, or by advertising your Freenet site on your World Wide Web 
site. If you're feeling extravagant, you could even try skywriting it. 
(Graffiti is not recommended, for legal reasons.)

Is this answer outdated?
If so, what should we advise?
-- next part --
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URL: 

[freenet-dev] Is this FAQ answer outdated?

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

As I was translating the FAQ, I saw this answer, which seems a bit outdated to 
me:

If I publish something in Freenet, how will people find it? Don't they have to 
know the key I used?
Yes, people will have to know what key you used to publish your information. 
This means you will have to announce your key in some way. 
The most common way to do this is to send a message, containing your key and 
brief description of your information, to the author of one of the existing 
Freenet sites. Most of the portal sites which are linked from the Freenet 
web interface (fproxy) have a submission form which lets you send them 
messages anonymously. You could also send your key to people by using the 
Freenet mailing lists, in the IRC channel (irc.freenode.net #freenet), by 
private e-mail, or by advertising your Freenet site on your World Wide Web 
site. If you're feeling extravagant, you could even try skywriting it. 
(Graffiti is not recommended, for legal reasons.)

Is this answer outdated?
If so, what should we advise?
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Re: [freenet-dev] Bookmarks menu was Re: Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 13 Février 2010 21:53:41, Evan Daniel a écrit :
 On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Matthew Toseland
 
 t...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
  On Saturday 06 February 2010 04:10:53 Ian Clarke wrote:
  Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the
  new front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the
  final UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as
  possible, and ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established
  UI conventions.
  
  The new UI moves the bookmarks to a menu. Is that a good idea? I think on
  the whole it probably is, I'm just a bit worried about expectation
  management / drawing the user's attention to what is likely to work
  quickly.
  
  If it is in fact a good idea then we could implement it with the current
  code relatively easily - we'd need a CSS guru to provide us with nested
  menu support - and get rid of the activelinks on the minimalist theme,
  and deploy the minimalist theme as the default. Or we could show the
  activelinks as part of the menu, or show them anyway but only for sites
  with activelinks - but I don't want a theme that requires activelinks to
  be default before web-pushing is merged and enabled by default.
 
 I'm not a CSS guru, but some googling turns up this:
 http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html
 
  Any thoughts on bookmarks as a menu?
 
 I think it's important the the main page we display provide an obvious
 answer to so what do I do now?  Right now the choices seem to be
 search for something and visit a bookmark.  As long as it's clear
 what to do from the start page for someone who hasn't used Freenet
 before, I'm fine with bookmarks in a menu.
 
Maybe we could let the user set some favorites bookmarks on the front page, 
and the other would be in the bookmark page. This way, you still can access 
your favorite bookmarks quickly, the front page is not overwhelmed, and we can 
present the user some bookmarks on the first start.
 Evan Daniel
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[freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 06 F?vrier 2010 05:10:53, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the new
> front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the final
> UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as possible, and
> ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established UI conventions.
> 
> The purpose of the new UI is *not* to replace all the functionality of
> fproxy, rather it should be viewed as an alternative to fproxy for "casual"
> users of Freenet (as opposed to those interested in aiding the Freenet
> development effort).  FProxy will remain for those who prefer it, or
> require functionality not provided by the new UI.
> 
> The new UI will also provide a front-end for FreeTalk, although this is not
> shown in the mock-up.  Similarly, it will provide access to settings, but
> only those likely to be useful to "casual" users.
> 
> Feedback is welcome of course.
> 
> Ian.

What do you put behind "casual"? Will this UI target newbies as well as 
advanced users (an advanced user can not be interested in aiding the Freenet 
development effort), or is there a limit somewhere.

And also, if the aim is to target all casual users (from newbie to advanced), 
how will this be acheived? (since I don't think they both have the same 
workflow)

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Lundi 08 F?vrier 2010 13:19:07, Ximin Luo a ?crit :
> On 02/07/2010 04:22 PM, p01air3 p01air3 wrote:
> > Freenet is based on index freesites and discussion forums. Library isn't
> > up to date, so I think you shouldn't insist on the search function like
> > google on the front page.
> 
> agreed, especially since search takes around 1-2 minutes at the moment.

I disagree with that, we need to provide users a way to search for contents. 
The fact that it doesn't work ery well now doesn't really matters, since this 
mockup will probably be out in a time where the Library plugin willl be more 
reliable.
Besides, it doesn't keep us from adding a second way to browse Freenet, like 
links to the index on the front page. As for the discussion forums, I think 
the link that is present on the top is sufficient enough.

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Re: [freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Lundi 08 Février 2010 13:19:07, Ximin Luo a écrit :
 On 02/07/2010 04:22 PM, p01air3 p01air3 wrote:
  Freenet is based on index freesites and discussion forums. Library isn't
  up to date, so I think you shouldn't insist on the search function like
  google on the front page.
 
 agreed, especially since search takes around 1-2 minutes at the moment.

I disagree with that, we need to provide users a way to search for contents. 
The fact that it doesn't work ery well now doesn't really matters, since this 
mockup will probably be out in a time where the Library plugin willl be more 
reliable.
Besides, it doesn't keep us from adding a second way to browse Freenet, like 
links to the index on the front page. As for the discussion forums, I think 
the link that is present on the top is sufficient enough.

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Re: [freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 06 Février 2010 05:10:53, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the new
 front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the final
 UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as possible, and
 ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established UI conventions.
 
 The purpose of the new UI is *not* to replace all the functionality of
 fproxy, rather it should be viewed as an alternative to fproxy for casual
 users of Freenet (as opposed to those interested in aiding the Freenet
 development effort).  FProxy will remain for those who prefer it, or
 require functionality not provided by the new UI.
 
 The new UI will also provide a front-end for FreeTalk, although this is not
 shown in the mock-up.  Similarly, it will provide access to settings, but
 only those likely to be useful to casual users.
 
 Feedback is welcome of course.
 
 Ian.

What do you put behind casual? Will this UI target newbies as well as 
advanced users (an advanced user can not be interested in aiding the Freenet 
development effort), or is there a limit somewhere.

And also, if the aim is to target all casual users (from newbie to advanced), 
how will this be acheived? (since I don't think they both have the same 
workflow)

Regards,

Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 06 F?vrier 2010 05:10:53, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the new
> front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the final
> UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as possible, and
> ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established UI conventions.
> 
> The purpose of the new UI is *not* to replace all the functionality of
> fproxy, rather it should be viewed as an alternative to fproxy for "casual"
> users of Freenet (as opposed to those interested in aiding the Freenet
> development effort).  FProxy will remain for those who prefer it, or
> require functionality not provided by the new UI.
> 
> The new UI will also provide a front-end for FreeTalk, although this is not
> shown in the mock-up.  Similarly, it will provide access to settings, but
> only those likely to be useful to "casual" users.
> 
> Feedback is welcome of course.
> 
> Ian.

Nice!

One question though : will the new UI handle the download/upload list, and if 
not, why?

Except for that, I think it's nice, clean, and silk :)

Oh, and will the security levels be taken into account, or not? (it would take 
one line in the status dropdown, and I think it's important for a software 
like Freenet)

Re: [freenet-dev] Some (very) preliminary mock-ups of new UI

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 06 Février 2010 05:10:53, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 Pupok sent me a PDF containing a very preliminary mock-up of what the new
 front page will look like.  Note that it is a little pixelated, the final
 UI will not be.  The general idea is to keep it as simple as possible, and
 ensure that the UI is intuitive by following established UI conventions.
 
 The purpose of the new UI is *not* to replace all the functionality of
 fproxy, rather it should be viewed as an alternative to fproxy for casual
 users of Freenet (as opposed to those interested in aiding the Freenet
 development effort).  FProxy will remain for those who prefer it, or
 require functionality not provided by the new UI.
 
 The new UI will also provide a front-end for FreeTalk, although this is not
 shown in the mock-up.  Similarly, it will provide access to settings, but
 only those likely to be useful to casual users.
 
 Feedback is welcome of course.
 
 Ian.

Nice!

One question though : will the new UI handle the download/upload list, and if 
not, why?

Except for that, I think it's nice, clean, and silk :)

Oh, and will the security levels be taken into account, or not? (it would take 
one line in the status dropdown, and I think it's important for a software 
like Freenet)
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[freenet-dev] Website screenshot scroller doesn't work on FF3.5

[Clément Vollet]

Le Vendredi 05 F?vrier 2010 20:42:30, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> Is anyone able to fix this, or should we get rid of it?

Are you sure it doesn't work?
FF3.5 has been released quite a while ago, and there were no complaints about 
the screenshot viewer. I personally tested it, and it worked. It works on 
FF3.6 too.

Sometimes however, when using konqueror, I have an error ( don't remember 
which one, something about a width not fixed I think), but reloading the page 
fix it.

Re: [freenet-dev] Website screenshot scroller doesn't work on FF3.5

[Clément Vollet]

Le Vendredi 05 Février 2010 20:42:30, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 Is anyone able to fix this, or should we get rid of it?

Are you sure it doesn't work?
FF3.5 has been released quite a while ago, and there were no complaints about 
the screenshot viewer. I personally tested it, and it worked. It works on 
FF3.6 too.

Sometimes however, when using konqueror, I have an error ( don't remember 
which one, something about a width not fixed I think), but reloading the page 
fix it.
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[freenet-dev] New server, current status of services

[Clément Vollet]

Le Mardi 26 Janvier 2010 19:36:47, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> Apologies for recent downtime. This was caused by me trying to update
> software on emu and breaking the whole (rather complex) setup. We have
> obtained a new vserver, which will be much cheaper, simpler and easier to
> maintain. We are still in the process of getting services working on the
> new server. Currently email lists, email redirects, and the main website,
> work. The rest doesn't. Thank you for your patience!

If I understand well, this means users can't download freenet right now?
Maybe you should fill a news about that, that's what it's for ;)

And, btw, I think we should use the news more often, I feel a project is dead 
or nearly dead when there hasn't been any news for a while (and the last one 
is six months old); and by news, I don't mean a news about a switch of server 
like I suggested above, but news about the life of the project (development, 
new plugins, tech stuff, etc.). Maybe the users won't understand all of that, 
but that's ok, it means the project is still alive (and don't expect users to 
read the ml ;).

Oh, and I don't know where we are (well, where Ian's girlfriend (wife?) is), 
but I think we should also include some news system in the Freenet UI as well 
(but that's another topic).

Re: [freenet-dev] New server, current status of services

[Clément Vollet]

Le Mardi 26 Janvier 2010 19:36:47, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 Apologies for recent downtime. This was caused by me trying to update
 software on emu and breaking the whole (rather complex) setup. We have
 obtained a new vserver, which will be much cheaper, simpler and easier to
 maintain. We are still in the process of getting services working on the
 new server. Currently email lists, email redirects, and the main website,
 work. The rest doesn't. Thank you for your patience!

If I understand well, this means users can't download freenet right now?
Maybe you should fill a news about that, that's what it's for ;)

And, btw, I think we should use the news more often, I feel a project is dead 
or nearly dead when there hasn't been any news for a while (and the last one 
is six months old); and by news, I don't mean a news about a switch of server 
like I suggested above, but news about the life of the project (development, 
new plugins, tech stuff, etc.). Maybe the users won't understand all of that, 
but that's ok, it means the project is still alive (and don't expect users to 
read the ml ;).

Oh, and I don't know where we are (well, where Ian's girlfriend (wife?) is), 
but I think we should also include some news system in the Freenet UI as well 
(but that's another topic).
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[freenet-dev] Website updated, next steps was Re: [REQ]Pushing the french translation on website-official

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 23 Janvier 2010 17:39:14, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Wednesday 13 January 2010 10:24:57 Cl?ment Vollet wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I think that we can push the french translation of the website, since
> > almost all important pages are translated (that is index, download,
> > whatis, people, donate, sponsors). What's left is the faq (about 50%
> > done), but I don't think it's sufficient to block the release of the
> > translated site.
> > Moreover, all pages which aren't translated are displayed in english.
> > 
> > For now, we can push it without doing any langage recognition, and do
> > that latter (there is links to other language on top right of the site).
> > 
> > I'd like to add that I made some changes to the css to fix the menu
> > displaying (it wasn't scaling well with font size), especially when
> > hovering item. However, the items will now be centered, since I can't
> > find a way to fix this without center them.
> > 
> > So, please push (except if you have something more important to do, of
> > course
> > 
> > :p ), or if not, tell me why.
> 
> Pushed. Awesome!
> 
> Remaining website issues:
> - Glitches in French translation e.g. the FAQ question is in english even
> though the answer is in French. - You might want to point the chat link to
> #freenet-fr ??
> - More translations.
> - Auto-detect language. AFAICS the easiest way to do this is to use the
> apache config with language-conditional redirects? I.e. if we get
> http://freenetproject.org/ with headers saying french, we should redirect
> to http://freenetproject.org/fr/ ? - WebKit issues: The image scroller
> doesn't work on Konqueror 3.5. Does this reflect a general problem (e.g.
> with Safari, Chrome) or is it just that Konqueror 3.5 is ancient? -
> Language selection is clunky: IMHO we should go with micro-flags, it will
> piss off the hardcore anarchists but they're used to it.
> 
> Thanks, this should further expand the French community on Freenet, which
> is already second only to americans...

Sorry for the double post.

There is also one issue with the language selection on webkit-based browsers : 
when navigating on the french site, the sentence is "Selectionner votre langue 
:" which is longer than "Select your language:", and the ':' is not on the 
same line than "Selectionner votre langue". I can't figure out what's wrong, 
but fixing the width of the div fix the problem. The thing is, the width will 
be different for each language, so it's not a viable solution (and I'm not 
sure it will scale well with font size).
So, if anyone who knows a bit of css can take a look...
I'm not sure if it's a problem with the css or with how webkit handles it, 
since in firefox it looks good.

[freenet-dev] Website updated, next steps was Re: [REQ]Pushing the french translation on website-official

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 23 Janvier 2010 17:39:14, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Wednesday 13 January 2010 10:24:57 Cl?ment Vollet wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I think that we can push the french translation of the website, since
> > almost all important pages are translated (that is index, download,
> > whatis, people, donate, sponsors). What's left is the faq (about 50%
> > done), but I don't think it's sufficient to block the release of the
> > translated site.
> > Moreover, all pages which aren't translated are displayed in english.
> > 
> > For now, we can push it without doing any langage recognition, and do
> > that latter (there is links to other language on top right of the site).
> > 
> > I'd like to add that I made some changes to the css to fix the menu
> > displaying (it wasn't scaling well with font size), especially when
> > hovering item. However, the items will now be centered, since I can't
> > find a way to fix this without center them.
> > 
> > So, please push (except if you have something more important to do, of
> > course
> > 
> > :p ), or if not, tell me why.
> 
> Pushed. Awesome!
> 
> Remaining website issues:
> - Glitches in French translation e.g. the FAQ question is in english even
> though the answer is in French. 
Yes, I know that, it's just that I didn't finish to translate the FAQ. Dunno 
when I'll be able to do it, hopefully next week-end.
> - You might want to point the chat link to
> #freenet-fr ??
Right.
> - More translations.
> - Auto-detect language. AFAICS the easiest way to do this is to use the
> apache config with language-conditional redirects? I.e. if we get
> http://freenetproject.org/ with headers saying french, we should redirect
> to http://freenetproject.org/fr/ ? 
> - WebKit issues: The image scroller
> doesn't work on Konqueror 3.5. Does this reflect a general problem (e.g.
> with Safari, Chrome) or is it just that Konqueror 3.5 is ancient? 
It works with Konqueror 4.3.95, so I assume it's because Konqueror 3.5 is 
ancient (it also works with chromium, and rekonq, so it should work with 
safari too).
> - Language selection is clunky: IMHO we should go with micro-flags, it will
> piss off the hardcore anarchists but they're used to it.
Ok, it was with flags before, so it shouldn't be hard to restore that.
> 
> Thanks, this should further expand the French community on Freenet, which
> is already second only to americans...
I hope so :)

Re: [freenet-dev] Website updated, next steps was Re: [REQ]Pushing the french translation on website-official

[Clément Vollet]

Le Samedi 23 Janvier 2010 17:39:14, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Wednesday 13 January 2010 10:24:57 Clément Vollet wrote:
  Hello,
  
  I think that we can push the french translation of the website, since
  almost all important pages are translated (that is index, download,
  whatis, people, donate, sponsors). What's left is the faq (about 50%
  done), but I don't think it's sufficient to block the release of the
  translated site.
  Moreover, all pages which aren't translated are displayed in english.
  
  For now, we can push it without doing any langage recognition, and do
  that latter (there is links to other language on top right of the site).
  
  I'd like to add that I made some changes to the css to fix the menu
  displaying (it wasn't scaling well with font size), especially when
  hovering item. However, the items will now be centered, since I can't
  find a way to fix this without center them.
  
  So, please push (except if you have something more important to do, of
  course
  
  :p ), or if not, tell me why.
 
 Pushed. Awesome!
 
 Remaining website issues:
 - Glitches in French translation e.g. the FAQ question is in english even
 though the answer is in French. - You might want to point the chat link to
 #freenet-fr ??
 - More translations.
 - Auto-detect language. AFAICS the easiest way to do this is to use the
 apache config with language-conditional redirects? I.e. if we get
 http://freenetproject.org/ with headers saying french, we should redirect
 to http://freenetproject.org/fr/ ? - WebKit issues: The image scroller
 doesn't work on Konqueror 3.5. Does this reflect a general problem (e.g.
 with Safari, Chrome) or is it just that Konqueror 3.5 is ancient? -
 Language selection is clunky: IMHO we should go with micro-flags, it will
 piss off the hardcore anarchists but they're used to it.
 
 Thanks, this should further expand the French community on Freenet, which
 is already second only to americans...

Sorry for the double post.

There is also one issue with the language selection on webkit-based browsers : 
when navigating on the french site, the sentence is Selectionner votre langue 
: which is longer than Select your language:, and the ':' is not on the 
same line than Selectionner votre langue. I can't figure out what's wrong, 
but fixing the width of the div fix the problem. The thing is, the width will 
be different for each language, so it's not a viable solution (and I'm not 
sure it will scale well with font size).
So, if anyone who knows a bit of css can take a look...
I'm not sure if it's a problem with the css or with how webkit handles it, 
since in firefox it looks good.
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[freenet-dev] [REQ]Pushing the french translation on website-official

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

I think that we can push the french translation of the website, since almost 
all important pages are translated (that is index, download, whatis, people, 
donate, sponsors). What's left is the faq (about 50% done), but I don't think 
it's sufficient to block the release of the translated site.
Moreover, all pages which aren't translated are displayed in english.

For now, we can push it without doing any langage recognition, and do that 
latter (there is links to other language on top right of the site).

I'd like to add that I made some changes to the css to fix the menu displaying 
(it wasn't scaling well with font size), especially when hovering item. 
However, the items will now be centered, since I can't find a way to fix this 
without center them.

So, please push (except if you have something more important to do, of course 
:p ), or if not, tell me why.

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] [REQ]Pushing the french translation on website-official

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

I think that we can push the french translation of the website, since almost 
all important pages are translated (that is index, download, whatis, people, 
donate, sponsors). What's left is the faq (about 50% done), but I don't think 
it's sufficient to block the release of the translated site.
Moreover, all pages which aren't translated are displayed in english.

For now, we can push it without doing any langage recognition, and do that 
latter (there is links to other language on top right of the site).

I'd like to add that I made some changes to the css to fix the menu displaying 
(it wasn't scaling well with font size), especially when hovering item. 
However, the items will now be centered, since I can't find a way to fix this 
without center them.

So, please push (except if you have something more important to do, of course 
:p ), or if not, tell me why.

Regards,

Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] Old pages in the website directory

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

While I was translating some pages into french, I noticed that a lot of pages
seem to be unused.
Maybe we should move them to another folder?
It would help for the translation (which file do we need to translate), and 
it's also just clearer.

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] Problem generating the website on archlinux

[Clément Vollet]

Le Lundi 04 Janvier 2010 21:07:00, Cl?ment Vollet a ?crit :
> Hi,
> 
> I switched from gentoo to arch, but then I wanted to translate the website
> into french, but couldn't generate it anymore.
> 
> I don't understand why, since I do have php-cgi installed. Is there any
>  other prerequisites ?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dieppe
> 

Nevermind, I found the problem : it needs "

[freenet-dev] Moving the french wiki to sourceforge?

[Clément Vollet]

Le Mardi 05 Janvier 2010 02:35:19, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> 2010/1/4 Cl?ment Vollet 
> 
> > Since the official english wiki is being moved to sourceforge, can we
> > also put
> > the french wiki there too?
> > It's already on mediawiki, so it should be pretty straightforward (?).
> 
> You may want to wait a bit, as its possible we'll be migrating elsewhere,
> perhaps to emu (our own server).  If so, you'll be welcome to migrate the
> french version there too.
> 
AFAIK, it's already on emu (the url is htpp://doc-fr.freenetproject.org).

But clearly, if SF is not the definitive solution, there's no point migrating 
now.
> Ian.
> 

[freenet-dev] Moving the french wiki to sourceforge?

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

Since the official english wiki is being moved to sourceforge, can we also put 
the french wiki there too?
It's already on mediawiki, so it should be pretty straightforward (?).

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] Problem generating the website on archlinux

[Clément Vollet]

Hi,

I switched from gentoo to arch, but then I wanted to translate the website 
into french, but couldn't generate it anymore.

I don't understand why, since I do have php-cgi installed. Is there any other 
prerequisites ?

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] Problem generating the website on archlinux

[Clément Vollet]

Hi,

I switched from gentoo to arch, but then I wanted to translate the website 
into french, but couldn't generate it anymore.

I don't understand why, since I do have php-cgi installed. Is there any other 
prerequisites ?

Regards,

Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] Moving the french wiki to sourceforge?

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

Since the official english wiki is being moved to sourceforge, can we also put 
the french wiki there too?
It's already on mediawiki, so it should be pretty straightforward (?).

Regards,

Dieppe
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Re: [freenet-dev] Moving the french wiki to sourceforge?

[Clément Vollet]

Le Mardi 05 Janvier 2010 02:35:19, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 2010/1/4 Clément Vollet cvol...@gmail.com
 
  Since the official english wiki is being moved to sourceforge, can we
  also put
  the french wiki there too?
  It's already on mediawiki, so it should be pretty straightforward (?).
 
 You may want to wait a bit, as its possible we'll be migrating elsewhere,
 perhaps to emu (our own server).  If so, you'll be welcome to migrate the
 french version there too.
 
AFAIK, it's already on emu (the url is htpp://doc-fr.freenetproject.org).

But clearly, if SF is not the definitive solution, there's no point migrating 
now.
 Ian.
 
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Re: [freenet-dev] Problem generating the website on archlinux

[Clément Vollet]

Le Lundi 04 Janvier 2010 21:07:00, Clément Vollet a écrit :
 Hi,
 
 I switched from gentoo to arch, but then I wanted to translate the website
 into french, but couldn't generate it anymore.
 
 I don't understand why, since I do have php-cgi installed. Is there any
  other prerequisites ?
 
 Regards,
 
 Dieppe
 

Nevermind, I found the problem : it needs ?php instead of just ? in 
make-static-pages.sh.
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[freenet-dev] Old pages in the website directory

[Clément Vollet]

Hello,

While I was translating some pages into french, I noticed that a lot of pages
seem to be unused.
Maybe we should move them to another folder?
It would help for the translation (which file do we need to translate), and 
it's also just clearer.

Regards,

Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] ground-up GUI redesign

[Clément]

On Friday 20 November 2009 16:38:33 Ian Clarke wrote:
> My wife Janie, who (among other things) is a GUI designer, may have some
> free time over the next few months, and I'm trying to persuade her to
> attempt a ground-up redesign of Freenet's UI.  She has built UIs in GWT
> before (to critical acclaim within her company), and I think this would be
>  a good route for Freenet too.
> 
> I think our current problem is that despite our best efforts, the current
>  UI is built "from the code forward", rather than "from the user back", and
>  as such I think it is fundamentally flawed.  Despite how much we try, I
>  think it is very difficult for us to put ourselves in the shoes of an
>  ordinary Freenet user, we are already too immersed in the concepts and
>  jargon of Freenet.
> 
> The answer I think is a completely fresh perspective from someone that is
> unpolluted by existing Freenet concepts and jargon, who can focus on the
> user's needs to get stuff done, rather than our need to expose
> functionality.
> 
> Janie has asked if we could put together a document describing the "use
> cases", basically the tasks that should be achievable from Freenet's UI
>  from the user's perspective, but *not* simply a list of the
>  functionalities that must be exposed.
> 
> I've started a collaborative document here, all are welcome to contribute,
> but please read the notes at the top:
> 
>   http://etherpad.com/5GB8lyh5qD
> 
> Ian.
> 

If this can help, I sent a message some times ago. Here it is:

Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.

This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to adress 
those questions with all the attention they deserve. In particular, the raison 
d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the user (what is our target 
audience?).

FREENET UI

=> Raison d'etre:

"To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services provided by a 
Freenet node.

Current limitations:
- A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
- Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain too few
- Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make him ask a 
lot of questions
- Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's internal 
logic
- Feel free to complete

Success criterion (measurables):
- Users complain far less about Freenet being complicated (Freenet loses its 
image of a complicated software)
- Users are capable to accomplish all the action they want in a small time (we 
can ask a user to do some action an measure the time it takes for that (both 
in old and new UI), ...)
- Feel free to complete"


=> Model of the user:

General knowledge:
The user can read/write his own language and perhaps english. He knows how to 
use a computer.

Knowledge in the application domain:
Weak: the user only knows the basics : some general vocabulary, no technical 
detail. Do not know any specific terms.

Computer skills:
Basic +: the user knows how to use a computer and may have already used some 
P2P softwares before. Mostly run windows and is used to basic actions.

Feel free to complete

=> Activity modeling:

Here we need to do some polls, ask people on irc, if possible watch them using 
freenet. We could also refer to the state of the art: we're not the only p2p 
application, and even
though freenet is different, I'm sure we could reuse some things.

SO, we need questions to ask in order to know what peoples do on freenet, and 
how they do it. If we can get some scenario from existing users (in our target 
audience),
it would be also great.

I stop here for now, since this point also depends on the two previous ones.

If you have any question, please ask :)

Regards,

Dieppe

P.S. : I have to say that it's been a while since I didn't go to the channel 
or saw message on frost (I'm waiting for Freetalk for that ;)), so I may have 
a truncated view.

[freenet-dev] User interface: medium term, impact of social functionality

[Clément]

Le samedi 14 novembre 2009 17:36:10, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> After Freetalk and WoT are ready, and a few other WoT-based apps, what
>  will/should Freenet look like?
> 
> As I see it, there are several broad categories, ideas that are important
>  within the UI:
> 
> ===
> FRIENDS:
> 
> Visible Friends
> = friends = darknet peers
> This will probably have some traceable chat and basic filesharing.
> We probably don't have access to friends of friends, or only on a limited
>  level, so no deep social networking functionality here.
> 
> Invisible Friends
> = Web of Trust
> Each user has a profile, this links to various Applications - blog, chat,
>  etc. We have full access (in most cases) to friends of friends of friends
>  of friends, and trust levels between them. We can have any number of
>  Invisible Identities, but only one can be logged in at any given time.
>  This will be used for all the various social applications.
> 
> APPLICATIONS:
> 
> Some applications are social, some are non-social, some are both.
> 
> Browsing
> Fproxy is non-social, but some websites (e.g. flogs) will inline Freetalk
>  etc. Searching will long-term have social aspects - distributed WoT-based
>  search. So it is sensitive to your WoT preferences, and you may have your
>  own search index, which you can add existing content to, upload stuff to
>  be auto-added once done, link to other people's indexes, merge stuff from
>  other people's indexes, etc. Posting your flog is social: it is linked to
>  an identity.
> 
> Forums
> Better name than Discussion? Surely everyone has seen phpbb by now?
> Non-realtime chat.
> Social.
> 
> Chat
> Realtime chat.
> Social.
> Could conceivably be with both visible and invisible friends, even with
>  bridging the two, but most likely purely Invisible Friends for now.
> 
> Filesharing
> Downloads and Uploads are currently non-social, but are of little use
>  without a way to announce the content. Uploads should primarily be started
>  from within the flog tool or Freetalk. Downloads however can come from
>  anywhere - but it would be good to remember where they did come from?
>  Basic filesharing with Visible Friends is already implemented but is
>  non-persistent and so unreliable, ljb's plan was to integrate it on the
>  downloads and uploads page (while not necessarily being able to initiate
>  transfers from there).
>  ===
> 
> So how does this affect the user interface? IMHO it should make a
>  significant impact.
> 
> Firstly, creating an anonymous identity is important for most social
>  applications. We should have a global property of the currently logged in
>  Anonymous Identity. We probably want a page with such identities where you
>  can delete one, create a new one, etc. We might want to have a passworded
>  login as an option, configured during setup, but many users will find a
>  dropdown more convenient. 
Most application needing a login/password just display two fields (the login 
field is also a dropdown, with no entry at the beginning). But there also is 
an option to remember (and fill the login dropdown) and autologin at startup.
>  We probably want to offer to create one during
>  setup.
Agreed
> 
> The logged-in identity, if any, should probably be displayed in the status
>  bar, with a link to the Invisible Identities page so we can log out,
>  create a new one, etc. If we are logged out we should have a link
>  indicating this.
> 
> The menu bar is already pushing it width-wise with WoT, Freetalk and
>  Freereader, especially as some languages are twice the width of English...
> 
> It is important to make all available functionality obvious to a newbie, on
>  the home page. This will be much more than just search and indexes... We
>  might want icons for each function or something? Search does need to be
>  prominent though...
> 
We also can have a link to the application (or plugin, I don't know how we 
should call them) "store" (cf. the message "[UI] general remarks"). It saves a 
lot of space, and it forces the user to discover how to add a app (and I think 
it's quite easy, since it's just two clicks). So, basically, the stock freenet 
menu would be shorter : homepage (with search included?), profile/my stuff..., 
darknet, status, settings, files.
> We probably want menus to roughly correspond to the above categories, plus
>  whatever is essential for settings and status?
> 
> Search - top level is a search box
> 
> Forums - top level is a board list
> 
> Chat - top level is a channel list
> 
> Mail - top level is an inbox
> 
> Profile / My Stuff / Anonymous Identities - top level is a list of social
>  apps for which we publish anything, so my blog, my search index, etc, plus
>  my anonymous friends (= WoT trust settings = OwnIdentity profile page),
>  and their friends (= profile page for a KnownIdentity)
> 
We also need a place to create or delete 

Re: [freenet-dev] User interface: medium term, impact of social functionality

[Clément]

Le samedi 14 novembre 2009 17:36:10, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 After Freetalk and WoT are ready, and a few other WoT-based apps, what
  will/should Freenet look like?
 
 As I see it, there are several broad categories, ideas that are important
  within the UI:
 
 ===
 FRIENDS:
 
 Visible Friends
 = friends = darknet peers
 This will probably have some traceable chat and basic filesharing.
 We probably don't have access to friends of friends, or only on a limited
  level, so no deep social networking functionality here.
 
 Invisible Friends
 = Web of Trust
 Each user has a profile, this links to various Applications - blog, chat,
  etc. We have full access (in most cases) to friends of friends of friends
  of friends, and trust levels between them. We can have any number of
  Invisible Identities, but only one can be logged in at any given time.
  This will be used for all the various social applications.
 
 APPLICATIONS:
 
 Some applications are social, some are non-social, some are both.
 
 Browsing
 Fproxy is non-social, but some websites (e.g. flogs) will inline Freetalk
  etc. Searching will long-term have social aspects - distributed WoT-based
  search. So it is sensitive to your WoT preferences, and you may have your
  own search index, which you can add existing content to, upload stuff to
  be auto-added once done, link to other people's indexes, merge stuff from
  other people's indexes, etc. Posting your flog is social: it is linked to
  an identity.
 
 Forums
 Better name than Discussion? Surely everyone has seen phpbb by now?
 Non-realtime chat.
 Social.
 
 Chat
 Realtime chat.
 Social.
 Could conceivably be with both visible and invisible friends, even with
  bridging the two, but most likely purely Invisible Friends for now.
 
 Filesharing
 Downloads and Uploads are currently non-social, but are of little use
  without a way to announce the content. Uploads should primarily be started
  from within the flog tool or Freetalk. Downloads however can come from
  anywhere - but it would be good to remember where they did come from?
  Basic filesharing with Visible Friends is already implemented but is
  non-persistent and so unreliable, ljb's plan was to integrate it on the
  downloads and uploads page (while not necessarily being able to initiate
  transfers from there).
  ===
 
 So how does this affect the user interface? IMHO it should make a
  significant impact.
 
 Firstly, creating an anonymous identity is important for most social
  applications. We should have a global property of the currently logged in
  Anonymous Identity. We probably want a page with such identities where you
  can delete one, create a new one, etc. We might want to have a passworded
  login as an option, configured during setup, but many users will find a
  dropdown more convenient. 
Most application needing a login/password just display two fields (the login 
field is also a dropdown, with no entry at the beginning). But there also is 
an option to remember (and fill the login dropdown) and autologin at startup.
  We probably want to offer to create one during
  setup.
Agreed
 
 The logged-in identity, if any, should probably be displayed in the status
  bar, with a link to the Invisible Identities page so we can log out,
  create a new one, etc. If we are logged out we should have a link
  indicating this.
 
 The menu bar is already pushing it width-wise with WoT, Freetalk and
  Freereader, especially as some languages are twice the width of English...
 
 It is important to make all available functionality obvious to a newbie, on
  the home page. This will be much more than just search and indexes... We
  might want icons for each function or something? Search does need to be
  prominent though...
 
We also can have a link to the application (or plugin, I don't know how we 
should call them) store (cf. the message [UI] general remarks). It saves a 
lot of space, and it forces the user to discover how to add a app (and I think 
it's quite easy, since it's just two clicks). So, basically, the stock freenet 
menu would be shorter : homepage (with search included?), profile/my stuff..., 
darknet, status, settings, files.
 We probably want menus to roughly correspond to the above categories, plus
  whatever is essential for settings and status?
 
 Search - top level is a search box
 
 Forums - top level is a board list
 
 Chat - top level is a channel list
 
 Mail - top level is an inbox
 
 Profile / My Stuff / Anonymous Identities - top level is a list of social
  apps for which we publish anything, so my blog, my search index, etc, plus
  my anonymous friends (= WoT trust settings = OwnIdentity profile page),
  and their friends (= profile page for a KnownIdentity)
 
We also need a place to create or delete identities. Would it be there?
 Darknet - IMHO there is an argument for reintroducing the jargon, given we
  

[freenet-dev] [UI] Some general remarks

[Clément]

Le mardi 10 novembre 2009 15:33:38, vous avez ?crit :
> On Monday 09 November 2009 18:55:47 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Since my last attempt to change (or at least to talk about changing) the
> > freenet UI didn't really succeed, maybe it's better to focus on some
> > points.
> >
> > *The default CSS theme:
> > I think that the clean-dropdown theme is good, but there is one big
> > problem imho: the status bar looks like the menu bar. I find that very
> > confusing.
> >
> > *The global feeling:
> > I never thought of that before, but the interface looks like an
> > administration console. Not really like a software user-oriented
> > interface. I think that the minimalist theme remove that feeling a bit,
> > so maybe it should be the default theme, as a first step.
> 
> It's a good theme yes. However, it has activelinks, meaning that users will
>  feel they have to wait for it to load and/or will sulk. IMHO activelinks
>  work well with it - they provide an interesting alternative to the search
>  box. But I am not sure we can deploy a theme that requires activelinks
>  before we have the web-pushing branch merged. The web-pushing branch shows
>  progress on the individual images, and prevents their loading from slowing
>  down everything else the browser is doing by hogging connections. It also
>  dynamically updates just about everything. It will require further work to
>  get it merged, because it currently has some stalling issues with slow
>  browsers. Maybe it should be a priority for 0.8?
> 
I think it can be a great UI improvment, so I'd say yes. But as I don't know 
with which items it competes, I'm not really objective.
> > *Plugins:
> > For now, we have a limited amount of plugins. What if we have 10 plugins
> > that people would use everyday (mail, forum, filesharing, chat, search,
> > upnp, ...). I think we should really make plugins a part of freenet, and
> > not just have a single page for them.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > For instance, the UPnP plugin: why does it appears on the plugin page? I
> > mean, it should be part of the configuration : do you want to enable UPnP
> > : [Y/N] And an other plugin like library: why does it appears on the
> > plugin page? If it's not loaded, just don't display the search box, and
> > explain why (as we do now). And don't make people search for it in the
> > plugin page: it should also be part of the configuration: enable search
> > over freenet? [Y/N]
> 
> Well the plugin page is where you say Y/N. However, it is a very poor
>  interface. I had planned to rewrite it so that the official plugins have a
>  brief description of what they do, whether or not they are loaded, and to
>  get rid of the internal ID and started time and possibly Visit in simple
>  mode, and probably change the formatting completely. E.g.
> 
> 
> Plugins are extensions to Freenet that provide extra functions. There are
>  official plugins and unofficial plugins.
> 
> Loaded plugins:
> 
> UPnP [ Unload ] [ Reload ]
> 
> This helps your node to find out what your node's IP address is, and
>  automatically forwards your ports by talking to your router. This makes it
>  possible for Freenet to talk to other Freenet nodes more easily.
> 
> ...
> 
> MyPlugin [ Unload ] [ Reload ]
> 
> Unofficial plugin: We do not know what this does.
> 
> ...
> 
> Official plugins you could load:
> 
> Freetalk [ Load ]
> 
> Freetalk is a message forums system over Freenet. This lets you anonymously
>  talk to other Freenet users, in much the same way as a web forum or news
>  group.
> 
> ...
> 
> Load an unofficial plugin
> 
> Unofficial plugins are not supported and may violate your privacy, eat your
>  cat, etc.
> 
> Load plugin from: [ box ]
> 
> [ ] Load from local file
> [ ] Load from Freenet
> [ ] Load from the web
> 
> 
> 
> We would probably have an interface for plugins to describe themselves
>  instead of "We do not know what this does.".
> 
> Most plugins that end-users will actually use are now integrated into the
>  UI. Library is available both from the home page search box and from the
>  Browsing drop-down, for example. Freemail isn't, but it has never worked
>  well for me, and it doesn't currently have a web frontend, only a tool for
>  making identities.
> 
> > So, I think that for misc plugins, we should integrate them directly into
> > freenet, and make them an option. Well, of course, I may have miss
> > something, and they have to be plugins. Fine, but we don't have to say
> > that to the user. Or we just warn him that by enabling one of the option,
> > it will load a plugin.
> 
> One or two are plugins because they require Java 1.6. Several include big
>  third party libraries. Some don't really meet our security standards e.g.
>  JSTUN contacts central servers. IMHO something like Freetalk really should
>  be a separate project at least in the code modularity sense. Some of them
>  offer 

Re: [freenet-dev] [UI] Some general remarks

[Clément]

Le mardi 10 novembre 2009 15:33:38, vous avez écrit :
 On Monday 09 November 2009 18:55:47 Clément wrote:
  Hello,
 
  Since my last attempt to change (or at least to talk about changing) the
  freenet UI didn't really succeed, maybe it's better to focus on some
  points.
 
  *The default CSS theme:
  I think that the clean-dropdown theme is good, but there is one big
  problem imho: the status bar looks like the menu bar. I find that very
  confusing.
 
  *The global feeling:
  I never thought of that before, but the interface looks like an
  administration console. Not really like a software user-oriented
  interface. I think that the minimalist theme remove that feeling a bit,
  so maybe it should be the default theme, as a first step.
 
 It's a good theme yes. However, it has activelinks, meaning that users will
  feel they have to wait for it to load and/or will sulk. IMHO activelinks
  work well with it - they provide an interesting alternative to the search
  box. But I am not sure we can deploy a theme that requires activelinks
  before we have the web-pushing branch merged. The web-pushing branch shows
  progress on the individual images, and prevents their loading from slowing
  down everything else the browser is doing by hogging connections. It also
  dynamically updates just about everything. It will require further work to
  get it merged, because it currently has some stalling issues with slow
  browsers. Maybe it should be a priority for 0.8?
 
I think it can be a great UI improvment, so I'd say yes. But as I don't know 
with which items it competes, I'm not really objective.
  *Plugins:
  For now, we have a limited amount of plugins. What if we have 10 plugins
  that people would use everyday (mail, forum, filesharing, chat, search,
  upnp, ...). I think we should really make plugins a part of freenet, and
  not just have a single page for them.
 
 Yes.
 
  For instance, the UPnP plugin: why does it appears on the plugin page? I
  mean, it should be part of the configuration : do you want to enable UPnP
  : [Y/N] And an other plugin like library: why does it appears on the
  plugin page? If it's not loaded, just don't display the search box, and
  explain why (as we do now). And don't make people search for it in the
  plugin page: it should also be part of the configuration: enable search
  over freenet? [Y/N]
 
 Well the plugin page is where you say Y/N. However, it is a very poor
  interface. I had planned to rewrite it so that the official plugins have a
  brief description of what they do, whether or not they are loaded, and to
  get rid of the internal ID and started time and possibly Visit in simple
  mode, and probably change the formatting completely. E.g.
 
 
 Plugins are extensions to Freenet that provide extra functions. There are
  official plugins and unofficial plugins.
 
 Loaded plugins:
 
 bUPnP/b [ Unload ] [ Reload ]
 
 This helps your node to find out what your node's IP address is, and
  automatically forwards your ports by talking to your router. This makes it
  possible for Freenet to talk to other Freenet nodes more easily.
 
 ...
 
 bMyPlugin/b [ Unload ] [ Reload ]
 
 Unofficial plugin: We do not know what this does.
 
 ...
 
 Official plugins you could load:
 
 bFreetalk/b [ Load ]
 
 Freetalk is a message forums system over Freenet. This lets you anonymously
  talk to other Freenet users, in much the same way as a web forum or news
  group.
 
 ...
 
 Load an unofficial plugin
 
 Unofficial plugins are not supported and may violate your privacy, eat your
  cat, etc.
 
 Load plugin from: [ box ]
 
 [ ] Load from local file
 [ ] Load from Freenet
 [ ] Load from the web
 
 
 
 We would probably have an interface for plugins to describe themselves
  instead of We do not know what this does..
 
 Most plugins that end-users will actually use are now integrated into the
  UI. Library is available both from the home page search box and from the
  Browsing drop-down, for example. Freemail isn't, but it has never worked
  well for me, and it doesn't currently have a web frontend, only a tool for
  making identities.
 
  So, I think that for misc plugins, we should integrate them directly into
  freenet, and make them an option. Well, of course, I may have miss
  something, and they have to be plugins. Fine, but we don't have to say
  that to the user. Or we just warn him that by enabling one of the option,
  it will load a plugin.
 
 One or two are plugins because they require Java 1.6. Several include big
  third party libraries. Some don't really meet our security standards e.g.
  JSTUN contacts central servers. IMHO something like Freetalk really should
  be a separate project at least in the code modularity sense. Some of them
  offer functionality that most users don't need, e.g. XMLSpider. And we
  clearly do need to support third party plugins.
 
  BTW, I don't

[freenet-dev] [UI] Some general remarks

[Clément]

Hello,

Since my last attempt to change (or at least to talk about changing) the 
freenet UI didn't really succeed, maybe it's better to focus on some points.

*The default CSS theme: 
I think that the clean-dropdown theme is good, but there is one big problem 
imho: the status bar looks like the menu bar. I find that very confusing.

*The global feeling:
I never thought of that before, but the interface looks like an administration 
console. Not really like a software user-oriented interface. I think that the 
minimalist theme remove that feeling a bit, so maybe it should be the default 
theme, as   a first step.

*Plugins:
For now, we have a limited amount of plugins. What if we have 10 plugins that 
people would use everyday (mail, forum, filesharing, chat, search, upnp, ...). 
I think we should really make plugins a part of freenet, and not just have a 
single page for them.
For instance, the UPnP plugin: why does it appears on the plugin page? I mean, 
it should be part of the configuration : do you want to enable UPnP : [Y/N]
And an other plugin like library: why does it appears on the plugin page? If 
it's not loaded, just don't display the search box, and explain why (as we do 
now). And don't make people search for it in the plugin page: it should also 
be part of the configuration: enable search over freenet? [Y/N]

So, I think that for misc plugins, we should integrate them directly into 
freenet, and make them an option. Well, of course, I may have miss something, 
and they have to be plugins. Fine, but we don't have to say that to the user. 
Or we just warn him that by enabling one of the option, it will load a plugin.

BTW, I don't understand why the heck there is a search freenet page, when 
there is a search box on the browse page. The only purpose I can see is to 
configure the search. Well, it should be in configuration then. And we can add 
the selection of index on the browse page too. Or we can use the default 
index, and when the search is done, asking if the user want to use an other 
index if he didn't find what he searched.

For other plugins who really need UI, we should have something looking like 
that : 
http://www.google.fr/intl/fr/options/

A sort of application "store", when user can choose which app he wants to use. 
We can add a little '+' on the icon when the application is not yet loaded, 
and a '-' when it is. To choose whether we want to load over freenet or over 
the web, we have two solution : either we make a global option displayed in 
configuration (default freenet), and we always load the plugin accordingly, 
except if it fails to load and then we ask if we want to retry or try another 
solution, or we display the two options each time we click on the '+' button.

*Interaction:
It would be great if we have a home page, with news from the project (what 
changed, what is about to, ...), updated bookmarks, friends messages, rss, 
etc...
As I picture it, it would be modular, like google iirc, and a lot of other 
site (but google is the only one i can remember right now). You can add a 
module, remove it, move it, etc...
Of course, that would be in a perfect world. If we can have something static, 
it would be great too. And I think it would allow the user to view freenet as 
something more close to them.


That's all for now,
Remember that all of that are just remarks, I'm not saying freenet sucks, or 
this or that sucks. Just pointing out some things, and asking for comments ;)

Regards,

Dieppe

PS : I didn't know how to structure that, so I just put everything in one 
message, but maybe it's best if we focus on one point per answer?

[freenet-dev] [UI] Some general remarks

[Clément]

Hello,

Since my last attempt to change (or at least to talk about changing) the 
freenet UI didn't really succeed, maybe it's better to focus on some points.

*The default CSS theme: 
I think that the clean-dropdown theme is good, but there is one big problem 
imho: the status bar looks like the menu bar. I find that very confusing.

*The global feeling:
I never thought of that before, but the interface looks like an administration 
console. Not really like a software user-oriented interface. I think that the 
minimalist theme remove that feeling a bit, so maybe it should be the default 
theme, as   a first step.

*Plugins:
For now, we have a limited amount of plugins. What if we have 10 plugins that 
people would use everyday (mail, forum, filesharing, chat, search, upnp, ...). 
I think we should really make plugins a part of freenet, and not just have a 
single page for them.
For instance, the UPnP plugin: why does it appears on the plugin page? I mean, 
it should be part of the configuration : do you want to enable UPnP : [Y/N]
And an other plugin like library: why does it appears on the plugin page? If 
it's not loaded, just don't display the search box, and explain why (as we do 
now). And don't make people search for it in the plugin page: it should also 
be part of the configuration: enable search over freenet? [Y/N]

So, I think that for misc plugins, we should integrate them directly into 
freenet, and make them an option. Well, of course, I may have miss something, 
and they have to be plugins. Fine, but we don't have to say that to the user. 
Or we just warn him that by enabling one of the option, it will load a plugin.

BTW, I don't understand why the heck there is a search freenet page, when 
there is a search box on the browse page. The only purpose I can see is to 
configure the search. Well, it should be in configuration then. And we can add 
the selection of index on the browse page too. Or we can use the default 
index, and when the search is done, asking if the user want to use an other 
index if he didn't find what he searched.

For other plugins who really need UI, we should have something looking like 
that : 
http://www.google.fr/intl/fr/options/

A sort of application store, when user can choose which app he wants to use. 
We can add a little '+' on the icon when the application is not yet loaded, 
and a '-' when it is. To choose whether we want to load over freenet or over 
the web, we have two solution : either we make a global option displayed in 
configuration (default freenet), and we always load the plugin accordingly, 
except if it fails to load and then we ask if we want to retry or try another 
solution, or we display the two options each time we click on the '+' button.

*Interaction:
It would be great if we have a home page, with news from the project (what 
changed, what is about to, ...), updated bookmarks, friends messages, rss, 
etc...
As I picture it, it would be modular, like google iirc, and a lot of other 
site (but google is the only one i can remember right now). You can add a 
module, remove it, move it, etc...
Of course, that would be in a perfect world. If we can have something static, 
it would be great too. And I think it would allow the user to view freenet as 
something more close to them.


That's all for now,
Remember that all of that are just remarks, I'm not saying freenet sucks, or 
this or that sucks. Just pointing out some things, and asking for comments ;)

Regards,

Dieppe

PS : I didn't know how to structure that, so I just put everything in one 
message, but maybe it's best if we focus on one point per answer?
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[freenet-dev] Progress bars rethink?

[Clément]

On Friday 06 November 2009 23:44:52 Evan Daniel wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Matthew Toseland
>
> > Currently, the progress bar jumps back and forth as it completes the
> > different stages, and the percentage is shown differently depending on
> > whether it has finished. And on the loading page after clicking a link,
> > we even use words to explain that "The progress bar is likely to jump
> > around as not enough blocks of the file were downloaded yet to know how
> > big the file is."
> >
> > In an ideal world, all progress bars would start at zero, and would move
> > linearly to the end. In a slightly less ideal world, we would meet user
> > expectations by ensuring that stalls and jitteriness are at the beginning
> > rather than the end, in accordance with a paper Ian referred me to.
> > However the obvious linearisation strategy, of dedicating some percentage
> > (or a declining percentage) to each stage, is IMHO pretty iffy for
> > Freenet: We don't know how many stages there will be (although it's not
> > likely to be huge), and each stage is likely to be slower than the last
> > as each stage will often be bigger than the last: This will tend to
> > aggravate users. Note that we display an ETA separately, at least on the
> > loading-a-page page.
> >
> > So I propose that we try to represent this visually in a way that is
> > still reasonably clear:
> >
> > We keep the ?'s. Currently we start at "0 (0%??)", this should probably
> > be just "0%?". At each non-final stage, we show the ? and a progress bar
> > with a light border, a border of the same color as the background, no
> > border, a dotted border or something similar. The color of the progress
> > bar itself, or its background, should change on each iteration. Once we
> > reach the final stage, we show a solid border and use a fixed color for
> > the progress bar e.g. green.
> >
> > Users would quickly get used to such a scheme and provided the colors
> > aren't too horrible it should be quite workable. The only real challenge
> > IMHO is that we actually use 4 colors in a progress bar: - Background/not
> > finished
> > - Succeeded
> > - Failed
> > - Fatally failed
> >
> > The last two can be combined, of course. They should be red. The text
> > percentage is normally black. Then the question is whether we change the
> > color of the background or of the succeeded blocks on each stage, and a
> > suitable (readable) color rotation. IMHO we are not likely to have more
> > than 5 or so stages, and we can rotate if we do. I don't want this to
> > turn into a bikeshed argument, but any suggestions?
> >
> > We can improve this by changing the metadata to include the exact number
> > of blocks in the final file at the top of the file. We would still have
> > multiple stages for some files from freesites, but for most we would
> > quickly reach the final stage, with an exact percentage, even if we are
> > actually fetching the first of thee layers of metadata. :)
> 
> Another idea for improving progress bars: divide them vertically.  Say
> we're downloading the second layer (known not final) of a splitfile.
> The top 1/4 of the progress bar is shown full (the already downloaded
> top block), the second 25% is shown part-full (current layer in
> progress), and the bottom half is empty (all future layers).  Always
> have the bottom layer take up 50% of the vertical space, and divide
> the top 50% evenly between all past / current layers.
> 
> The idea is to give a visual indication of what's happening: we're
> making forward progress, but the goalpost is moving.  It's a little
> complicated, but I suspect it gives the right idea visually.  Details
> would need to be tweaked after looking at a mockup, of course :)
> 
Can't we just stick at two bars? (if I understand right, there are 3 bars 
here)
Do we really need to have the first 1/4 of the bar to show the progress of the 
top block, or could we just consider it as a layer? If we can, we could have 
the main progress bar (with past/current layers), and a second progress bar 
showing current progress (with a text on the bottom saying what we currently 
are fetching). It simplifies a bit, and could be a good compromise?

I don't know if you proposed to have one progress bar divided in 3, or 3 
progress bars, but I also think we should separate them, because they're not 
displaying the same thing (and by separate, I mean with a space, not only with 
a border line).

Another thing I wanted to say about the progress bar (I dunno if it's still 
like that), is that we don't need to display the menu. We should have a very 
clear and simple progress bar (well, 2 or 3), and display only the minimum 
amount of information : I always have the impression I'm still in freenet when 
loading a site, when I just want to browse it. I dunno if I'm clear, I hope 
so.
We could just have a link at the bottom of the page : "go back to the freenet 
menu" or something like that (I let you the wording part :p).
> 

Re: [freenet-dev] Progress bars rethink?

[Clément]

On Friday 06 November 2009 23:44:52 Evan Daniel wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Matthew Toseland

  Currently, the progress bar jumps back and forth as it completes the
  different stages, and the percentage is shown differently depending on
  whether it has finished. And on the loading page after clicking a link,
  we even use words to explain that The progress bar is likely to jump
  around as not enough blocks of the file were downloaded yet to know how
  big the file is.
 
  In an ideal world, all progress bars would start at zero, and would move
  linearly to the end. In a slightly less ideal world, we would meet user
  expectations by ensuring that stalls and jitteriness are at the beginning
  rather than the end, in accordance with a paper Ian referred me to.
  However the obvious linearisation strategy, of dedicating some percentage
  (or a declining percentage) to each stage, is IMHO pretty iffy for
  Freenet: We don't know how many stages there will be (although it's not
  likely to be huge), and each stage is likely to be slower than the last
  as each stage will often be bigger than the last: This will tend to
  aggravate users. Note that we display an ETA separately, at least on the
  loading-a-page page.
 
  So I propose that we try to represent this visually in a way that is
  still reasonably clear:
 
  We keep the ?'s. Currently we start at 0 (0%??), this should probably
  be just 0%?. At each non-final stage, we show the ? and a progress bar
  with a light border, a border of the same color as the background, no
  border, a dotted border or something similar. The color of the progress
  bar itself, or its background, should change on each iteration. Once we
  reach the final stage, we show a solid border and use a fixed color for
  the progress bar e.g. green.
 
  Users would quickly get used to such a scheme and provided the colors
  aren't too horrible it should be quite workable. The only real challenge
  IMHO is that we actually use 4 colors in a progress bar: - Background/not
  finished
  - Succeeded
  - Failed
  - Fatally failed
 
  The last two can be combined, of course. They should be red. The text
  percentage is normally black. Then the question is whether we change the
  color of the background or of the succeeded blocks on each stage, and a
  suitable (readable) color rotation. IMHO we are not likely to have more
  than 5 or so stages, and we can rotate if we do. I don't want this to
  turn into a bikeshed argument, but any suggestions?
 
  We can improve this by changing the metadata to include the exact number
  of blocks in the final file at the top of the file. We would still have
  multiple stages for some files from freesites, but for most we would
  quickly reach the final stage, with an exact percentage, even if we are
  actually fetching the first of thee layers of metadata. :)
 
 Another idea for improving progress bars: divide them vertically.  Say
 we're downloading the second layer (known not final) of a splitfile.
 The top 1/4 of the progress bar is shown full (the already downloaded
 top block), the second 25% is shown part-full (current layer in
 progress), and the bottom half is empty (all future layers).  Always
 have the bottom layer take up 50% of the vertical space, and divide
 the top 50% evenly between all past / current layers.
 
 The idea is to give a visual indication of what's happening: we're
 making forward progress, but the goalpost is moving.  It's a little
 complicated, but I suspect it gives the right idea visually.  Details
 would need to be tweaked after looking at a mockup, of course :)
 
Can't we just stick at two bars? (if I understand right, there are 3 bars 
here)
Do we really need to have the first 1/4 of the bar to show the progress of the 
top block, or could we just consider it as a layer? If we can, we could have 
the main progress bar (with past/current layers), and a second progress bar 
showing current progress (with a text on the bottom saying what we currently 
are fetching). It simplifies a bit, and could be a good compromise?

I don't know if you proposed to have one progress bar divided in 3, or 3 
progress bars, but I also think we should separate them, because they're not 
displaying the same thing (and by separate, I mean with a space, not only with 
a border line).

Another thing I wanted to say about the progress bar (I dunno if it's still 
like that), is that we don't need to display the menu. We should have a very 
clear and simple progress bar (well, 2 or 3), and display only the minimum 
amount of information : I always have the impression I'm still in freenet when 
loading a site, when I just want to browse it. I dunno if I'm clear, I hope 
so.
We could just have a link at the bottom of the page : go back to the freenet 
menu or something like that (I let you the wording part :p).
 Of course, having good info in the top block would help as well.
 (BTW, 3667 is a semi-dupe of 3369.)
 
  Now, with Library 

[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 14:06:52 VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote:
> Matthew Toseland ?:
> > On Thursday 15 October 2009 07:03:10 VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote:
> >> Cl?ment ?:
> >>> 4) Do you use 3rd party software (like FMS, Frost, ...)?
> >>> o Yes
> >>> o No
> >>
> >> It may sound strange, but i believe you should have "Don't know" option
> >> here. For many beginning users the distinction between "Freenet" and
> >> "3rd party software using freenet" is quite tricky to understand.
> >
> > Well, we don't bundle anything at present; plugins are conceptually part
> > of Freenet, everything else is third-party software in the sense that you
> > have to download it separately, no?
> 
> And newbies still ask questions on Frost using "Frost" and "Freenet"
> interchangeably.
> 
> I agree that Frost is "third party software", what i was saying is "There
>  are people who don't know that". But if you are ideologically opposed to
>  "I don't know" option, i'm not going to argue with anybody more than i
>  already have.
> 
>- Volodya
> 
I think you're right. And even if you're not, it doesn't cost anything to add 
this option. So we shouldn't argue on this forever.

So, basically, does everyone agree on the process here (i.e. having a poll 
showing when running freenet), or not ? If so, we could move forward.

Btw, if anyone have any other comments on this, please share it. I thing that 
the current UI is quite good, but we could improve it a lot, and by doing so, 
having more people running freenet, and less support on basic question, so 
more time to actually improve the core. It's the first time I try to improve 
and rethink a major project UI, so if you're interested in this, I could use 
some help (and last thing : UI design may not seem really sexy at a first 
glance, but it *is* interesting when you're trying to make things right).

PS : @ian, if I understood right, you have some contacts in User experience 
field. Do you think it may be possible for them to have a look at what we're 
doing when we have something ready, and just before we actually launch it ?

Re: [freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 14:06:52 VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote:
 Matthew Toseland пишет:
  On Thursday 15 October 2009 07:03:10 VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote:
  Clément пишет:
  4) Do you use 3rd party software (like FMS, Frost, ...)?
  o Yes
  o No
 
  It may sound strange, but i believe you should have Don't know option
  here. For many beginning users the distinction between Freenet and
  3rd party software using freenet is quite tricky to understand.
 
  Well, we don't bundle anything at present; plugins are conceptually part
  of Freenet, everything else is third-party software in the sense that you
  have to download it separately, no?
 
 And newbies still ask questions on Frost using Frost and Freenet
 interchangeably.
 
 I agree that Frost is third party software, what i was saying is There
  are people who don't know that. But if you are ideologically opposed to
  I don't know option, i'm not going to argue with anybody more than i
  already have.
 
- Volodya
 
I think you're right. And even if you're not, it doesn't cost anything to add 
this option. So we shouldn't argue on this forever.

So, basically, does everyone agree on the process here (i.e. having a poll 
showing when running freenet), or not ? If so, we could move forward.

Btw, if anyone have any other comments on this, please share it. I thing that 
the current UI is quite good, but we could improve it a lot, and by doing so, 
having more people running freenet, and less support on basic question, so 
more time to actually improve the core. It's the first time I try to improve 
and rethink a major project UI, so if you're interested in this, I could use 
some help (and last thing : UI design may not seem really sexy at a first 
glance, but it *is* interesting when you're trying to make things right).

PS : @ian, if I understood right, you have some contacts in User experience 
field. Do you think it may be possible for them to have a look at what we're 
doing when we have something ready, and just before we actually launch it ?
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Wednesday 14 October 2009 08:30:34 Cl?ment wrote:
> On Sunday 11 October 2009 21:39:48 Juiceman wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Cl?ment  wrote:
> > > On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > >> On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Cl?ment wrote:
> > >> > Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
> > >> >
> > >> > This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
> > >> > adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
> > >> > particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the
> > >> > user (what is our target audience?).
> > >>
> > >> This is logical.
> > >>
> > >> > FREENET UI
> > >> >
> > >> > => Raison d'etre:
> > >> >
> > >> > "To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services
> > >> > provided by a Freenet node.
> > >>
> > >> Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the
> > >> rest being provided by third party tools etc?
> > >
> > > Sure
> > >
> > >> > Current limitations:
> > >> > - A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
> > >>
> > >> Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet
> > >> are hard to safely simplify. :(
> > >
> > > Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they
> > > essential to use Freenet ?
> >
> > I started coding a "help" servlet for Freenet, accessible if you go to
> > http://127.0.0.1:/help
> > but became discouraged when I had to start worrying about licensing
> > issues with copy pasting text from the various Freenet wikis.  My
> > original idea was to use the l10n language files to contain the
> > information and allow translation, but it is an ugly kludge and would
> > only allow translation of English to other languages keeping the exact
> > same formatting and wouldn't allow other languages to be expanded
> > beyond without editing the code of Freenet itself and not just a text
> > file.
> >
> > It was my desire that the information be accessible even if a node
> > couldn't connect or was in a secluded darknet that couldn't reach a
> > Freesite in the main network.
> 
> It's clearly the way to go. The thing is, I'm not sure we should document
> Freenet right now if we plan to change the UI. Btw, as Evan said in another
> thread, we should also think of all new terms we use in the UI, and ask
> ourselves if they're self explanatory or if there is a better term for that
> (dunno who did this, but I think someone already proposed that for some
> things). If we manage to reduce the number of complex terms, we also reduce
> the size of the help.
> 
> So, first thing first : do we agree that the UI need reworking (I'm not
>  saying we should start over of course, but it may involve a lot of work).
>  If so, we should ask the users what they don't like about the current one
>  (after all, if almost all users are ok with it, why change it), and
>  for that we should find a way to do that : if we ask only on user on fms,
>  it will be biased, because it needs some technical skills to have it up
>  and running.
> 
> Maybe the best thing would be to have a poll displayed on Freenet startup
>  for a given version (or more, dunno...). It won't be anonymous (not in the
>  freenet way I mean) since it would require a spam protection we don't have
>  atm. So, what I propose is that we ask the user if he is okay helping us
>  improving Freenet, if yes, we display the poll. As an option, but I don't
>  see why now, we could also grad usage statistics, with the agreement of
>  the user of course. But that's out of the scope for now.
> So, basically, as any other software who do that, we upload the results on
>  the freenet server, with no identification of course. Would that be ok ?
> 
> If so, we just need to know what question we will ask.
> First we need to determine how often they use the software, why they use it
> mostly, if they're fine about the current ui, if they have the feeling that
> freenet is too complex, and also an open question like "what would you do
>  to improve freenet usability". I never did that before, so I don't really
>  know what else to ask, but I'm sure that with some time and some help,
>  we'll find more ;)
> 
Ok, I just got some times, and came up with the following questions. Of 
course, comments are very welcome (and please, don't give attention to 
wording, I'm really tired)!

1) How often is your node running? // We don't really need this one for the 
UI, but I though it could be useful to know
o 24/7 of course!
o 70-90%
o 50-70%
o 25-50%
o 0-25%

2) How often do you *use* Freenet? // This one is important however
o Everyday
o Several times in a week
o Several times in a month
o Several times in a year
o Never

3) Would you say that Freenet is complicated to use?
o Yes
o No
If you want to give some details : .

4) Do you use 3rd party software (like FMS, Frost, ...)?
o Yes
o No

5) What is your primary use of Freenet?
o Browse freesite
o 

[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Sunday 11 October 2009 21:39:48 Juiceman wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Cl?ment  wrote:
> > On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> >> On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Cl?ment wrote:
> >> > Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
> >> >
> >> > This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
> >> > adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
> >> > particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the
> >> > user (what is our target audience?).
> >>
> >> This is logical.
> >>
> >> > FREENET UI
> >> >
> >> > => Raison d'etre:
> >> >
> >> > "To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services
> >> > provided by a Freenet node.
> >>
> >> Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the rest
> >>  being provided by third party tools etc?
> >
> > Sure
> >
> >> > Current limitations:
> >> > - A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
> >>
> >> Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet are
> >>  hard to safely simplify. :(
> >
> > Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they
> > essential to use Freenet ?
> 
> I started coding a "help" servlet for Freenet, accessible if you go to
> http://127.0.0.1:/help
> but became discouraged when I had to start worrying about licensing
> issues with copy pasting text from the various Freenet wikis.  My
> original idea was to use the l10n language files to contain the
> information and allow translation, but it is an ugly kludge and would
> only allow translation of English to other languages keeping the exact
> same formatting and wouldn't allow other languages to be expanded
> beyond without editing the code of Freenet itself and not just a text
> file.
> 
> It was my desire that the information be accessible even if a node
> couldn't connect or was in a secluded darknet that couldn't reach a
> Freesite in the main network.
> 
It's clearly the way to go. The thing is, I'm not sure we should document 
Freenet right now if we plan to change the UI. Btw, as Evan said in another 
thread, we should also think of all new terms we use in the UI, and ask 
ourselves if they're self explanatory or if there is a better term for that 
(dunno who did this, but I think someone already proposed that for some 
things). If we manage to reduce the number of complex terms, we also reduce 
the size of the help.

So, first thing first : do we agree that the UI need reworking (I'm not saying 
we should start over of course, but it may involve a lot of work). If so, we 
should ask the users what they don't like about the current one (after all, if 
almost all users are ok with it, why change it), and for that we should 
find a way to do that : if we ask only on user on fms, it will be biased, 
because it needs some technical skills to have it up and running. 

Maybe the best thing would be to have a poll displayed on Freenet startup for 
a given version (or more, dunno...). It won't be anonymous (not in the freenet 
way I mean) since it would require a spam protection we don't have atm. So, 
what I propose is that we ask the user if he is okay helping us improving 
Freenet, if yes, we display the poll. As an option, but I don't see why now, 
we could also grad usage statistics, with the agreement of the user of course. 
But that's out of the scope for now.
So, basically, as any other software who do that, we upload the results on the 
freenet server, with no identification of course. Would that be ok ?

If so, we just need to know what question we will ask.
First we need to determine how often they use the software, why they use it 
mostly, if they're fine about the current ui, if they have the feeling that 
freenet is too complex, and also an open question like "what would you do to 
improve freenet usability". I never did that before, so I don't really know 
what else to ask, but I'm sure that with some time and some help, we'll find 
more ;)
> A better way I now believe would be to ship html files as part of the
> node, with the node loading the local pages like it was a Freesite,
> only I don't know how to code that.  It also doesn't answer my
> licensing questions.
> 
> >> > - Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain
> >> > too few
> >>
> >> True, but please consider simple mode, new users will not use advanced
> >>  mode...
> >
> > We may want to focus on simple mode at a start, but I think we shouldn't
> > work on advanced mode just because it's for advanced users and they can
> > deal with it. It should be comfortable to use for both.
> >
> >> > - Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make
> >> > him ask a lot of questions
> >>
> >> If you have any ideas on this, I'd be interested, but in a lot of cases
> >> it is unavoidable...
> >
> > I don't have any ideas yet. That's just a remark. But I think that is an
> > important point we should 

Re: [freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Sunday 11 October 2009 21:39:48 Juiceman wrote:
 On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Clément cvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
  On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Clément wrote:
   Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
  
   This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
   adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
   particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the
   user (what is our target audience?).
 
  This is logical.
 
   FREENET UI
  
   = Raison d'etre:
  
   To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services
   provided by a Freenet node.
 
  Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the rest
   being provided by third party tools etc?
 
  Sure
 
   Current limitations:
   - A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
 
  Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet are
   hard to safely simplify. :(
 
  Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they
  essential to use Freenet ?
 
 I started coding a help servlet for Freenet, accessible if you go to
 http://127.0.0.1:/help
 but became discouraged when I had to start worrying about licensing
 issues with copy pasting text from the various Freenet wikis.  My
 original idea was to use the l10n language files to contain the
 information and allow translation, but it is an ugly kludge and would
 only allow translation of English to other languages keeping the exact
 same formatting and wouldn't allow other languages to be expanded
 beyond without editing the code of Freenet itself and not just a text
 file.
 
 It was my desire that the information be accessible even if a node
 couldn't connect or was in a secluded darknet that couldn't reach a
 Freesite in the main network.
 
It's clearly the way to go. The thing is, I'm not sure we should document 
Freenet right now if we plan to change the UI. Btw, as Evan said in another 
thread, we should also think of all new terms we use in the UI, and ask 
ourselves if they're self explanatory or if there is a better term for that 
(dunno who did this, but I think someone already proposed that for some 
things). If we manage to reduce the number of complex terms, we also reduce 
the size of the help.

So, first thing first : do we agree that the UI need reworking (I'm not saying 
we should start over of course, but it may involve a lot of work). If so, we 
should ask the users what they don't like about the current one (after all, if 
almost all users are ok with it, why change it), and for that we should 
find a way to do that : if we ask only on user on fms, it will be biased, 
because it needs some technical skills to have it up and running. 

Maybe the best thing would be to have a poll displayed on Freenet startup for 
a given version (or more, dunno...). It won't be anonymous (not in the freenet 
way I mean) since it would require a spam protection we don't have atm. So, 
what I propose is that we ask the user if he is okay helping us improving 
Freenet, if yes, we display the poll. As an option, but I don't see why now, 
we could also grad usage statistics, with the agreement of the user of course. 
But that's out of the scope for now.
So, basically, as any other software who do that, we upload the results on the 
freenet server, with no identification of course. Would that be ok ?

If so, we just need to know what question we will ask.
First we need to determine how often they use the software, why they use it 
mostly, if they're fine about the current ui, if they have the feeling that 
freenet is too complex, and also an open question like what would you do to 
improve freenet usability. I never did that before, so I don't really know 
what else to ask, but I'm sure that with some time and some help, we'll find 
more ;)
 A better way I now believe would be to ship html files as part of the
 node, with the node loading the local pages like it was a Freesite,
 only I don't know how to code that.  It also doesn't answer my
 licensing questions.
 
   - Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain
   too few
 
  True, but please consider simple mode, new users will not use advanced
   mode...
 
  We may want to focus on simple mode at a start, but I think we shouldn't
  work on advanced mode just because it's for advanced users and they can
  deal with it. It should be comfortable to use for both.
 
   - Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make
   him ask a lot of questions
 
  If you have any ideas on this, I'd be interested, but in a lot of cases
  it is unavoidable...
 
  I don't have any ideas yet. That's just a remark. But I think that is an
  important point we should keep in mind.
 
   - Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's
   internal logic
 
  True, should be avoided in simple mode in general

Re: [freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Wednesday 14 October 2009 08:30:34 Clément wrote:
 On Sunday 11 October 2009 21:39:48 Juiceman wrote:
  On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Clément cvol...@gmail.com wrote:
   On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
   On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Clément wrote:
Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
   
This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the
user (what is our target audience?).
  
   This is logical.
  
FREENET UI
   
= Raison d'etre:
   
To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services
provided by a Freenet node.
  
   Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the
   rest being provided by third party tools etc?
  
   Sure
  
Current limitations:
- A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
  
   Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet
   are hard to safely simplify. :(
  
   Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they
   essential to use Freenet ?
 
  I started coding a help servlet for Freenet, accessible if you go to
  http://127.0.0.1:/help
  but became discouraged when I had to start worrying about licensing
  issues with copy pasting text from the various Freenet wikis.  My
  original idea was to use the l10n language files to contain the
  information and allow translation, but it is an ugly kludge and would
  only allow translation of English to other languages keeping the exact
  same formatting and wouldn't allow other languages to be expanded
  beyond without editing the code of Freenet itself and not just a text
  file.
 
  It was my desire that the information be accessible even if a node
  couldn't connect or was in a secluded darknet that couldn't reach a
  Freesite in the main network.
 
 It's clearly the way to go. The thing is, I'm not sure we should document
 Freenet right now if we plan to change the UI. Btw, as Evan said in another
 thread, we should also think of all new terms we use in the UI, and ask
 ourselves if they're self explanatory or if there is a better term for that
 (dunno who did this, but I think someone already proposed that for some
 things). If we manage to reduce the number of complex terms, we also reduce
 the size of the help.
 
 So, first thing first : do we agree that the UI need reworking (I'm not
  saying we should start over of course, but it may involve a lot of work).
  If so, we should ask the users what they don't like about the current one
  (after all, if almost all users are ok with it, why change it), and
  for that we should find a way to do that : if we ask only on user on fms,
  it will be biased, because it needs some technical skills to have it up
  and running.
 
 Maybe the best thing would be to have a poll displayed on Freenet startup
  for a given version (or more, dunno...). It won't be anonymous (not in the
  freenet way I mean) since it would require a spam protection we don't have
  atm. So, what I propose is that we ask the user if he is okay helping us
  improving Freenet, if yes, we display the poll. As an option, but I don't
  see why now, we could also grad usage statistics, with the agreement of
  the user of course. But that's out of the scope for now.
 So, basically, as any other software who do that, we upload the results on
  the freenet server, with no identification of course. Would that be ok ?
 
 If so, we just need to know what question we will ask.
 First we need to determine how often they use the software, why they use it
 mostly, if they're fine about the current ui, if they have the feeling that
 freenet is too complex, and also an open question like what would you do
  to improve freenet usability. I never did that before, so I don't really
  know what else to ask, but I'm sure that with some time and some help,
  we'll find more ;)
 
Ok, I just got some times, and came up with the following questions. Of 
course, comments are very welcome (and please, don't give attention to 
wording, I'm really tired)!

1) How often is your node running? // We don't really need this one for the 
UI, but I though it could be useful to know
o 24/7 of course!
o 70-90%
o 50-70%
o 25-50%
o 0-25%

2) How often do you *use* Freenet? // This one is important however
o Everyday
o Several times in a week
o Several times in a month
o Several times in a year
o Never

3) Would you say that Freenet is complicated to use?
o Yes
o No
If you want to give some details : .

4) Do you use 3rd party software (like FMS, Frost, ...)?
o Yes
o No

5) What is your primary use of Freenet?
o Browse freesite
o Download/Upload files
o Talk on discussion boards
o All of the above

6) Do you use the search function to search freesites?
o Yes
o No : why?  (you may leave a blank here)

7

[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
> >
> > This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
> > adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
> > particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the user
> > (what is our target audience?).
> 
> This is logical.
> 
> > FREENET UI
> >
> > => Raison d'etre:
> >
> > "To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services provided
> > by a Freenet node.
> 
> Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the rest
>  being provided by third party tools etc?
> 
Sure
> > Current limitations:
> > - A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
> 
> Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet are
>  hard to safely simplify. :(
> 
Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they essential 
to use Freenet ?
> > - Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain too
> > few
> 
> True, but please consider simple mode, new users will not use advanced
>  mode...
> 
We may want to focus on simple mode at a start, but I think we shouldn't work 
on advanced mode just because it's for advanced users and they can deal with 
it. It should be comfortable to use for both.
> > - Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make him
> > ask a lot of questions
> 
> If you have any ideas on this, I'd be interested, but in a lot of cases it
>  is unavoidable...
> 
I don't have any ideas yet. That's just a remark. But I think that is an 
important point we should keep in mind.
> > - Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's
> > internal logic
> 
> True, should be avoided in simple mode in general.
> 
> > - Feel free to complete
> >
> > Success criterion (measurables):
> > - Users complain far less about Freenet being complicated (Freenet loses
> > its image of a complicated software)
> 
> Not possible, but some progress can surely be made.
> 
If you start with "not possible", we won't go far :p Apart from that, as I 
said above, we should find what users find complicated right now, to simplify 
things as much as we can.
> > - Users are capable to accomplish all the action they want in a small
> > time (we can ask a user to do some action an measure the time it takes
> > for that (both in old and new UI), ...)
> > - Feel free to complete"
> >
> >
> > => Model of the user:
> >
> > General knowledge:
> > The user can read/write his own language and perhaps english. He knows
> > how to use a computer.
> >
> > Knowledge in the application domain:
> > Weak: the user only knows the basics : some general vocabulary, no
> > technical detail. Do not know any specific terms.
> >
> > Computer skills:
> > Basic +: the user knows how to use a computer and may have already used
> > some P2P softwares before. Mostly run windows and is used to basic
> > actions.
> 
> Seems reasonable.
> 
> > Feel free to complete
> >
> > => Activity modeling:
> >
> > Here we need to do some polls, ask people on irc, if possible watch them
> > using freenet. We could also refer to the state of the art: we're not the
> > only p2p application, and even
> > though freenet is different, I'm sure we could reuse some things.
> >
> > SO, we need questions to ask in order to know what peoples do on freenet,
> > and how they do it. If we can get some scenario from existing users (in
> > our target audience),
> > it would be also great.
> 
> So we need more usability testing, we need to look at the UI of other apps,
>  and we need to find out how people actually use Freenet?
> 
Yep. The most important part (according to my (basic) course) is to have 
people telling us how they work know with freenet, i.e. make them write 
scenarii. A poll is surely a good thing too, since we may have a larger 
audience. I'll try to write down some questions if we agree on the basics 
here.
> > I stop here for now, since this point also depends on the two previous
> > ones.
> >
> > If you have any question, please ask :)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dieppe
> >
> > P.S. : I have to say that it's been a while since I didn't go to the
> > channel or saw message on frost (I'm waiting for Freetalk for that ;)),
> > so I may have a truncated view.
> 

Re: [freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

On Saturday 10 October 2009 23:53:52 Matthew Toseland wrote:
 On Thursday 08 October 2009 00:49:11 Clément wrote:
  Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.
 
  This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to
  adress those questions with all the attention they deserve. In
  particular, the raison d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the user
  (what is our target audience?).
 
 This is logical.
 
  FREENET UI
 
  = Raison d'etre:
 
  To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services provided
  by a Freenet node.
 
 Or the functionality that they will commonly want to use, with the rest
  being provided by third party tools etc?
 
Sure
  Current limitations:
  - A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
 
 Freenet is complicated, period. Many important things about Freenet are
  hard to safely simplify. :(
 
Well, we should find out which things are hard to simplify : are they essential 
to use Freenet ?
  - Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain too
  few
 
 True, but please consider simple mode, new users will not use advanced
  mode...
 
We may want to focus on simple mode at a start, but I think we shouldn't work 
on advanced mode just because it's for advanced users and they can deal with 
it. It should be comfortable to use for both.
  - Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make him
  ask a lot of questions
 
 If you have any ideas on this, I'd be interested, but in a lot of cases it
  is unavoidable...
 
I don't have any ideas yet. That's just a remark. But I think that is an 
important point we should keep in mind.
  - Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's
  internal logic
 
 True, should be avoided in simple mode in general.
 
  - Feel free to complete
 
  Success criterion (measurables):
  - Users complain far less about Freenet being complicated (Freenet loses
  its image of a complicated software)
 
 Not possible, but some progress can surely be made.
 
If you start with not possible, we won't go far :p Apart from that, as I 
said above, we should find what users find complicated right now, to simplify 
things as much as we can.
  - Users are capable to accomplish all the action they want in a small
  time (we can ask a user to do some action an measure the time it takes
  for that (both in old and new UI), ...)
  - Feel free to complete
 
 
  = Model of the user:
 
  General knowledge:
  The user can read/write his own language and perhaps english. He knows
  how to use a computer.
 
  Knowledge in the application domain:
  Weak: the user only knows the basics : some general vocabulary, no
  technical detail. Do not know any specific terms.
 
  Computer skills:
  Basic +: the user knows how to use a computer and may have already used
  some P2P softwares before. Mostly run windows and is used to basic
  actions.
 
 Seems reasonable.
 
  Feel free to complete
 
  = Activity modeling:
 
  Here we need to do some polls, ask people on irc, if possible watch them
  using freenet. We could also refer to the state of the art: we're not the
  only p2p application, and even
  though freenet is different, I'm sure we could reuse some things.
 
  SO, we need questions to ask in order to know what peoples do on freenet,
  and how they do it. If we can get some scenario from existing users (in
  our target audience),
  it would be also great.
 
 So we need more usability testing, we need to look at the UI of other apps,
  and we need to find out how people actually use Freenet?
 
Yep. The most important part (according to my (basic) course) is to have 
people telling us how they work know with freenet, i.e. make them write 
scenarii. A poll is surely a good thing too, since we may have a larger 
audience. I'll try to write down some questions if we agree on the basics 
here.
  I stop here for now, since this point also depends on the two previous
  ones.
 
  If you have any question, please ask :)
 
  Regards,
 
  Dieppe
 
  P.S. : I have to say that it's been a while since I didn't go to the
  channel or saw message on frost (I'm waiting for Freetalk for that ;)),
  so I may have a truncated view.
 
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[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.

This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to adress 
those questions with all the attention they deserve. In particular, the raison 
d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the user (what is our target 
audience?).

FREENET UI

=> Raison d'etre:

"To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services provided by a 
Freenet node.

Current limitations:
- A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
- Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain too few
- Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make him ask a 
lot of questions
- Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's internal 
logic
- Feel free to complete

Success criterion (measurables):
- Users complain far less about Freenet being complicated (Freenet loses its 
image of a complicated software)
- Users are capable to accomplish all the action they want in a small time (we 
can ask a user to do some action an measure the time it takes for that (both 
in old and new UI), ...)
- Feel free to complete"


=> Model of the user:

General knowledge:
The user can read/write his own language and perhaps english. He knows how to 
use a computer.

Knowledge in the application domain:
Weak: the user only knows the basics : some general vocabulary, no technical 
detail. Do not know any specific terms.

Computer skills:
Basic +: the user knows how to use a computer and may have already used some 
P2P softwares before. Mostly run windows and is used to basic actions.

Feel free to complete

=> Activity modeling:

Here we need to do some polls, ask people on irc, if possible watch them using 
freenet. We could also refer to the state of the art: we're not the only p2p 
application, and even
though freenet is different, I'm sure we could reuse some things.

SO, we need questions to ask in order to know what peoples do on freenet, and 
how they do it. If we can get some scenario from existing users (in our target 
audience),
it would be also great.

I stop here for now, since this point also depends on the two previous ones.

If you have any question, please ask :)

Regards,

Dieppe

P.S. : I have to say that it's been a while since I didn't go to the channel 
or saw message on frost (I'm waiting for Freetalk for that ;)), so I may have 
a truncated view.

[freenet-dev] Rethinking freenet UI

[Clément]

Hello, I felt bored tonight, so I wrote this.

This is just a beginning, but in order to have a good UI, we need to adress 
those questions with all the attention they deserve. In particular, the raison 
d'etre (why a new UI?) and the model of the user (what is our target 
audience?).

FREENET UI

= Raison d'etre:

To allow the user to access all (or the more of) the services provided by a 
Freenet node.

Current limitations:
- A lot of users complain about Freenet being complicated to use
- Some menus/sub-menus contain too many elements, when other contain too few
- Some informations presented to the user are complicated, and make him ask a 
lot of questions
- Some informations presented to the user are related to the node's internal 
logic
- Feel free to complete

Success criterion (measurables):
- Users complain far less about Freenet being complicated (Freenet loses its 
image of a complicated software)
- Users are capable to accomplish all the action they want in a small time (we 
can ask a user to do some action an measure the time it takes for that (both 
in old and new UI), ...)
- Feel free to complete


= Model of the user:

General knowledge:
The user can read/write his own language and perhaps english. He knows how to 
use a computer.

Knowledge in the application domain:
Weak: the user only knows the basics : some general vocabulary, no technical 
detail. Do not know any specific terms.

Computer skills:
Basic +: the user knows how to use a computer and may have already used some 
P2P softwares before. Mostly run windows and is used to basic actions.

Feel free to complete

= Activity modeling:

Here we need to do some polls, ask people on irc, if possible watch them using 
freenet. We could also refer to the state of the art: we're not the only p2p 
application, and even
though freenet is different, I'm sure we could reuse some things.

SO, we need questions to ask in order to know what peoples do on freenet, and 
how they do it. If we can get some scenario from existing users (in our target 
audience),
it would be also great.

I stop here for now, since this point also depends on the two previous ones.

If you have any question, please ask :)

Regards,

Dieppe

P.S. : I have to say that it's been a while since I didn't go to the channel 
or saw message on frost (I'm waiting for Freetalk for that ;)), so I may have 
a truncated view.
___
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[freenet-dev] Website and iCarousel

[Clément]

Hi, 

I just added a carousel [1] to the website (you can test it via the website-
staging repo). The thing is : 

1) Do we really want to use it (in fact, I just wanted to test it, but well, 
since the work was done, why not push it ?) ?
2) If so, we need more screenshots (we could use only one screenshot,  but it 
would be a bit strange :p)

That's all folks !

[1] http://zendold.lojcomm.com.br/icarousel/

[freenet-dev] Website and iCarousel

[Clément]

Hi, 

I just added a carousel [1] to the website (you can test it via the website-
staging repo). The thing is : 

1) Do we really want to use it (in fact, I just wanted to test it, but well, 
since the work was done, why not push it ?) ?
2) If so, we need more screenshots (we could use only one screenshot,  but it 
would be a bit strange :p)

That's all folks !

[1] http://zendold.lojcomm.com.br/icarousel/
___
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[freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le dimanche 09 ao?t 2009 03:05:32, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Saturday 08 August 2009 02:04:31 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Le vendredi 07 ao?t 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > > On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > > Le jeudi 06 ao?t 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > > > > On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Toseland wrote:
> > > > > > > I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional
> > > > > > > tool for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the
> > > > > > > outside, we implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers
> > > > > > > option. Your Friends would announce whether they are willing to
> > > > > > > proxy for you, and you could choose which friends to use, or
> > > > > > > allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the inside
> > > > > > > don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
> > > > > > > Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it
> > > > > > > would get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place
> > > > > > > and into Happy Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We
> > > > > > > have expended considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP
> > > > > > > detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage of future
> > > > > > > transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard
> > > > > > > to block. - Many people are in this situation.
> > > > > > > - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less
> > > > > > > proxies can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer
> > > > > > > term measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for
> > > > > > > as long as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather
> > > > > > > than blocked outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a
> > > > > > > smooth-ish migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We
> > > > > > > could allow recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of
> > > > > > > a friend. This would provide a further incentive to grow the
> > > > > > > internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
> > > > > > > with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people
> > > > > > > connect to them, and the government finds out and blocks them.
> > > > > > > This does not apply here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This
> > > > > > probably also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related
> > > > > > to 3334 -- similar considerations probably apply).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
> > > > > > should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one
> > > > > > implementing any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no
> > > > > > particular order:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the
> > > > > > FCP docs on the wiki are current and correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try to spend some time on this soon...
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the
> > > > > > relative work required is for these two.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed, this is a big one.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are
> > > > > > probably mostly for someone other than toad?).
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
> > > > > > embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931
> > > > > > (split blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help
> > > > > > dramatically with availability), fixing top block healing on
> > > > > > splitfiles (discussed in 3358).
> > > > >
> > > > > Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it.
> > > > > IMHO it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs.
> > > > > Dunno re relative priority with f2f web proxy though.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
> > > > > > probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see
> > > > > > whether Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the
> > > > > > messaging app I'm working on.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet
> > > > > > connections more useful (in addition to this, whether before or
> > > > > > after I don't have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct
> > > > > > transfer of large files would be good (at a bare minimum, this
> > > > > > shouldn't fail silently like it does right now).
> > > > >
> > > > > ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply
> > > > > persistence - if the node restarts before you accept the transfer,
> > > > > it will break. But he will do some improvements to the UI as well
> > > > > e.g. showing the transfers on the downloads page.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Improving messaging 

[freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le dimanche 09 ao?t 2009 03:31:09, Jonas Bengtsson a ?crit :
> On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 03:04:31 +0200
>
> Cl?ment  wrote:
> > Le vendredi 07 ao?t 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > > On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > > Le jeudi 06 ao?t 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > > > > On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Toseland wrote:
> > > > > > > I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional
> > > > > > > tool for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the
> > > > > > > outside, we implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers
> > > > > > > option. Your Friends would announce whether they are willing to
> > > > > > > proxy for you, and you could choose which friends to use, or
> > > > > > > allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the inside
> > > > > > > don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
> > > > > > > Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it
> > > > > > > would get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place
> > > > > > > and into Happy Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We
> > > > > > > have expended considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP
> > > > > > > detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage of future
> > > > > > > transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard
> > > > > > > to block. - Many people are in this situation.
> > > > > > > - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less
> > > > > > > proxies can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer
> > > > > > > term measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for
> > > > > > > as long as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather
> > > > > > > than blocked outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a
> > > > > > > smooth-ish migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We
> > > > > > > could allow recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of
> > > > > > > a friend. This would provide a further incentive to grow the
> > > > > > > internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
> > > > > > > with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people
> > > > > > > connect to them, and the government finds out and blocks them.
> > > > > > > This does not apply here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This
> > > > > > probably also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related
> > > > > > to 3334 -- similar considerations probably apply).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
> > > > > > should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one
> > > > > > implementing any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no
> > > > > > particular order:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the
> > > > > > FCP docs on the wiki are current and correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try to spend some time on this soon...
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the
> > > > > > relative work required is for these two.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed, this is a big one.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are
> > > > > > probably mostly for someone other than toad?).
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
> > > > > > embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931
> > > > > > (split blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help
> > > > > > dramatically with availability), fixing top block healing on
> > > > > > splitfiles (discussed in 3358).
> > > > >
> > > > > Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it.
> > > > > IMHO it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs.
> > > > > Dunno re relative priority with f2f web proxy though.
> > > > >
> > > > > > - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
> > > > > > probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see
> > > > > > whether Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the
> > > > > > messaging app I'm working on.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet
> > > > > > connections more useful (in addition to this, whether before or
> > > > > > after I don't have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct
> > > > > > transfer of large files would be good (at a bare minimum, this
> > > > > > shouldn't fail silently like it does right now).
> > > > >
> > > > > ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply
> > > > > persistence - if the node restarts before you accept the transfer,
> > > > > it will break. But he will do some improvements to the UI as well
> > > > > e.g. showing the transfers on the downloads page.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Improving messaging 

[freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le vendredi 07 ao?t 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Le jeudi 06 ao?t 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > > On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
> > > >
> > > > Toseland wrote:
> > > > > I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional tool
> > > > > for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the outside, we
> > > > > implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers option. Your Friends
> > > > > would announce whether they are willing to proxy for you, and you
> > > > > could choose which friends to use, or allow it to use all of them
> > > > > (assuming people on the inside don't offer). You could then
> > > > > configure your browser to use Freenet as a proxy. This would not
> > > > > provide any anonymity but it would get you past network obstacles
> > > > > and/or out of Bad Place and into Happy Place. It's not a long term
> > > > > solution, but: - We have expended considerable effort on making
> > > > > darknet viable: IP detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage
> > > > > of future transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite
> > > > > hard to block. - Many people are in this situation.
> > > > > - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less proxies
> > > > > can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer term
> > > > > measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for as long
> > > > > as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather than blocked
> > > > > outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a smooth-ish
> > > > > migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We could allow
> > > > > recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of a friend. This
> > > > > would provide a further incentive to grow the internal darknet,
> > > > > which is what we want. - The classic problem with proxies is that
> > > > > they are rare so hundreds of people connect to them, and the
> > > > > government finds out and blocks them. This does not apply here.
> > > >
> > > > I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This probably
> > > > also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related to 3334 --
> > > > similar considerations probably apply).
> > > >
> > > > However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
> > > > should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one implementing
> > > > any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no particular order:
> > > >
> > > > - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the FCP
> > > > docs on the wiki are current and correct.
> > >
> > > I will try to spend some time on this soon...
> > >
> > > > - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the relative
> > > > work required is for these two.)
> > >
> > > Agreed, this is a big one.
> > >
> > > > - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are probably
> > > > mostly for someone other than toad?).
> > >
> > > There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.
> > >
> > > > - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
> > > > embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931 (split
> > > > blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help dramatically
> > > > with availability), fixing top block healing on splitfiles (discussed
> > > > in 3358).
> > >
> > > Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it. IMHO
> > > it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs. Dunno re
> > > relative priority with f2f web proxy though.
> > >
> > > > - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
> > > > probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see whether
> > > > Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the messaging app I'm
> > > > working on.)
> > > >
> > > > Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet connections
> > > > more useful (in addition to this, whether before or after I don't
> > > > have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct transfer of large files
> > > > would be good (at a bare minimum, this shouldn't fail silently like
> > > > it does right now).
> > >
> > > ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply persistence -
> > > if the node restarts before you accept the transfer, it will break. But
> > > he will do some improvements to the UI as well e.g. showing the
> > > transfers on the downloads page.
> > >
> > > > Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
> > > > see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps), queue a
> > > > message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell whether a
> > > > message I've sent arrived successfully.
> > >
> > > I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?
> > >
> > > > Evan Daniel
> >
> > Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good to
> > clear things up, and decides which features are must have and which
> > 

Re: [freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le dimanche 09 août 2009 03:31:09, Jonas Bengtsson a écrit :
 On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 03:04:31 +0200

 Clément cvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  Le vendredi 07 août 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
   On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Clément wrote:
Le jeudi 06 août 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
 
  Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
   I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional
   tool for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the
   outside, we implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers
   option. Your Friends would announce whether they are willing to
   proxy for you, and you could choose which friends to use, or
   allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the inside
   don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
   Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it
   would get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place
   and into Happy Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We
   have expended considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP
   detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage of future
   transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard
   to block. - Many people are in this situation.
   - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less
   proxies can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer
   term measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for
   as long as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather
   than blocked outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a
   smooth-ish migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We
   could allow recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of
   a friend. This would provide a further incentive to grow the
   internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
   with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people
   connect to them, and the government finds out and blocks them.
   This does not apply here.
 
  I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This
  probably also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related
  to 3334 -- similar considerations probably apply).
 
  However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
  should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one
  implementing any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no
  particular order:
 
  - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the
  FCP docs on the wiki are current and correct.

 I will try to spend some time on this soon...

  - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the
  relative work required is for these two.)

 Agreed, this is a big one.

  - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are
  probably mostly for someone other than toad?).

 There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.

  - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
  embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931
  (split blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help
  dramatically with availability), fixing top block healing on
  splitfiles (discussed in 3358).

 Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it.
 IMHO it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs.
 Dunno re relative priority with f2f web proxy though.

  - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
  probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see
  whether Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the
  messaging app I'm working on.)
 
  Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet
  connections more useful (in addition to this, whether before or
  after I don't have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct
  transfer of large files would be good (at a bare minimum, this
  shouldn't fail silently like it does right now).

 ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply
 persistence - if the node restarts before you accept the transfer,
 it will break. But he will do some improvements to the UI as well
 e.g. showing the transfers on the downloads page.

  Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
  see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps),
  queue a message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell
  whether a message I've sent arrived successfully.

 I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?

  Evan Daniel
   
Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good
to clear things up, and decides which features are must have

Re: [freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le dimanche 09 août 2009 03:05:32, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Saturday 08 August 2009 02:04:31 Clément wrote:
  Le vendredi 07 août 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
   On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Clément wrote:
Le jeudi 06 août 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
 
  Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
   I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional
   tool for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the
   outside, we implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers
   option. Your Friends would announce whether they are willing to
   proxy for you, and you could choose which friends to use, or
   allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the inside
   don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
   Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it
   would get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place
   and into Happy Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We
   have expended considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP
   detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage of future
   transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard
   to block. - Many people are in this situation.
   - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less
   proxies can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer
   term measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for
   as long as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather
   than blocked outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a
   smooth-ish migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We
   could allow recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of
   a friend. This would provide a further incentive to grow the
   internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
   with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people
   connect to them, and the government finds out and blocks them.
   This does not apply here.
 
  I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This
  probably also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related
  to 3334 -- similar considerations probably apply).
 
  However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
  should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one
  implementing any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no
  particular order:
 
  - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the
  FCP docs on the wiki are current and correct.

 I will try to spend some time on this soon...

  - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the
  relative work required is for these two.)

 Agreed, this is a big one.

  - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are
  probably mostly for someone other than toad?).

 There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.

  - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
  embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931
  (split blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help
  dramatically with availability), fixing top block healing on
  splitfiles (discussed in 3358).

 Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it.
 IMHO it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs.
 Dunno re relative priority with f2f web proxy though.

  - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
  probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see
  whether Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the
  messaging app I'm working on.)
 
  Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet
  connections more useful (in addition to this, whether before or
  after I don't have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct
  transfer of large files would be good (at a bare minimum, this
  shouldn't fail silently like it does right now).

 ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply
 persistence - if the node restarts before you accept the transfer,
 it will break. But he will do some improvements to the UI as well
 e.g. showing the transfers on the downloads page.

  Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
  see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps),
  queue a message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell
  whether a message I've sent arrived successfully.

 I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?

  Evan Daniel
   
Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good
to clear things up, and decides which features are must have and
which aren't

[freenet-dev] F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le jeudi 06 ao?t 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
> >
> > Toseland wrote:
> > > I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional tool for
> > > those in hostile regimes who have friends on the outside, we implement
> > > a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers option. Your Friends would announce
> > > whether they are willing to proxy for you, and you could choose which
> > > friends to use, or allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the
> > > inside don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
> > > Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it would
> > > get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place and into Happy
> > > Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We have expended
> > > considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP detection, ARKs etc. -
> > > It could take advantage of future transport plugins, but even before
> > > that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard to block. - Many people are in this
> > > situation.
> > > - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less proxies can
> > > be very simple. - It could be combined with longer term measures
> > > (growing the internal darknet), and just work for as long as it works.
> > > Most likely it would be throttled rather than blocked outright to start
> > > with, hopefully allowing for a smooth-ish migration of users to more
> > > robust mechanisms... - We could allow recursive proxying to some depth
> > > - maybe friend of a friend. This would provide a further incentive to
> > > grow the internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
> > > with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people connect to
> > > them, and the government finds out and blocks them. This does not apply
> > > here.
> >
> > I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This probably
> > also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related to 3334 --
> > similar considerations probably apply).
> >
> > However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
> > should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one implementing
> > any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no particular order:
> >
> > - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the FCP
> > docs on the wiki are current and correct.
>
> I will try to spend some time on this soon...
>
> > - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the relative
> > work required is for these two.)
>
> Agreed, this is a big one.
>
> > - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are probably
> > mostly for someone other than toad?).
>
> There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.
>
> > - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
> > embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931 (split
> > blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help dramatically
> > with availability), fixing top block healing on splitfiles (discussed
> > in 3358).
>
> Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it. IMHO it
> is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs. Dunno re relative
> priority with f2f web proxy though.
>
> > - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people probably
> > don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see whether Freenet
> > can hit near-real-time latencies for the messaging app I'm working
> > on.)
> >
> > Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet connections
> > more useful (in addition to this, whether before or after I don't have
> > a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct transfer of large files would
> > be good (at a bare minimum, this shouldn't fail silently like it does
> > right now).
>
> ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply persistence - if
> the node restarts before you accept the transfer, it will break. But he
> will do some improvements to the UI as well e.g. showing the transfers on
> the downloads page.
>
> > Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
> > see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps), queue a
> > message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell whether a
> > message I've sent arrived successfully.
>
> I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?
>
> > Evan Daniel

Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good to clear 
things up, and decides which features are must have and which aren't.
For instance, a F2F proxy is a great idea, but it's another feature plan on 
top of an already good filled list. It gives the impression of unconsistency (I 
said "impression" ;) )

(Also, I'm not on irc since a while, so I don't know what's really happening, 
so if this question has already been answered, just ignore me :) )

Re: [freenet-dev] 0.8 features? was Re: F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le vendredi 07 août 2009 00:38:50, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Thursday 06 August 2009 22:18:59 Clément wrote:
  Le jeudi 06 août 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
   On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
   
Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
 I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional tool
 for those in hostile regimes who have friends on the outside, we
 implement a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers option. Your Friends
 would announce whether they are willing to proxy for you, and you
 could choose which friends to use, or allow it to use all of them
 (assuming people on the inside don't offer). You could then
 configure your browser to use Freenet as a proxy. This would not
 provide any anonymity but it would get you past network obstacles
 and/or out of Bad Place and into Happy Place. It's not a long term
 solution, but: - We have expended considerable effort on making
 darknet viable: IP detection, ARKs etc. - It could take advantage
 of future transport plugins, but even before that, FNP 0.7 is quite
 hard to block. - Many people are in this situation.
 - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less proxies
 can be very simple. - It could be combined with longer term
 measures (growing the internal darknet), and just work for as long
 as it works. Most likely it would be throttled rather than blocked
 outright to start with, hopefully allowing for a smooth-ish
 migration of users to more robust mechanisms... - We could allow
 recursive proxying to some depth - maybe friend of a friend. This
 would provide a further incentive to grow the internal darknet,
 which is what we want. - The classic problem with proxies is that
 they are rare so hundreds of people connect to them, and the
 government finds out and blocks them. This does not apply here.
   
I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This probably
also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related to 3334 --
similar considerations probably apply).
   
However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one implementing
any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no particular order:
   
- Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the FCP
docs on the wiki are current and correct.
  
   I will try to spend some time on this soon...
  
- Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the relative
work required is for these two.)
  
   Agreed, this is a big one.
  
- Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are probably
mostly for someone other than toad?).
  
   There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.
  
- A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931 (split
blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help dramatically
with availability), fixing top block healing on splitfiles (discussed
in 3358).
  
   Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it. IMHO
   it is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs. Dunno re
   relative priority with f2f web proxy though.
  
- Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people
probably don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see whether
Freenet can hit near-real-time latencies for the messaging app I'm
working on.)
   
Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet connections
more useful (in addition to this, whether before or after I don't
have a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct transfer of large files
would be good (at a bare minimum, this shouldn't fail silently like
it does right now).
  
   ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply persistence -
   if the node restarts before you accept the transfer, it will break. But
   he will do some improvements to the UI as well e.g. showing the
   transfers on the downloads page.
  
Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps), queue a
message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell whether a
message I've sent arrived successfully.
  
   I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?
  
Evan Daniel
 
  Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good to
  clear things up, and decides which features are must have and which
  aren't. For instance, a F2F proxy is a great idea, but it's another
  feature plan on top of an already good filled list. It gives the
  impression of unconsistency (I said impression ;) )

 Well, it is low cost and high impact IMHO...

RIght.
  (Also, I'm not on irc since a while, so I don't know what's really
  happening, so

Re: [freenet-dev] F2F web proxy???

[Clément]

Le jeudi 06 août 2009 21:27:41, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Thursday 06 August 2009 16:33:04 Evan Daniel wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Matthew
 
  Toselandt...@amphibian.dyndns.org wrote:
   I propose that as a darknet value-add, and as an additional tool for
   those in hostile regimes who have friends on the outside, we implement
   a web-proxy-over-your-darknet-peers option. Your Friends would announce
   whether they are willing to proxy for you, and you could choose which
   friends to use, or allow it to use all of them (assuming people on the
   inside don't offer). You could then configure your browser to use
   Freenet as a proxy. This would not provide any anonymity but it would
   get you past network obstacles and/or out of Bad Place and into Happy
   Place. It's not a long term solution, but: - We have expended
   considerable effort on making darknet viable: IP detection, ARKs etc. -
   It could take advantage of future transport plugins, but even before
   that, FNP 0.7 is quite hard to block. - Many people are in this
   situation.
   - It is easy to implement. HTTP is complex but cache-less proxies can
   be very simple. - It could be combined with longer term measures
   (growing the internal darknet), and just work for as long as it works.
   Most likely it would be throttled rather than blocked outright to start
   with, hopefully allowing for a smooth-ish migration of users to more
   robust mechanisms... - We could allow recursive proxying to some depth
   - maybe friend of a friend. This would provide a further incentive to
   grow the internal darknet, which is what we want. - The classic problem
   with proxies is that they are rare so hundreds of people connect to
   them, and the government finds out and blocks them. This does not apply
   here.
 
  I like it.  Darknet features are a very good thing.  This probably
  also needs some care wrt bandwidth management (related to 3334 --
  similar considerations probably apply).
 
  However, as I mentioned on IRC, there are several things I think
  should be higher priority.  Of course, I'm not the one implementing
  any of this, but here's my opinion anyway ;)  In no particular order:
 
  - Documentation!  Both the plugins api and making sure that the FCP
  docs on the wiki are current and correct.

 I will try to spend some time on this soon...

  - Bloom filter sharing.  (Probably? I have no idea what the relative
  work required is for these two.)

 Agreed, this is a big one.

  - Freetalk and a blogging app of some sort (though these are probably
  mostly for someone other than toad?).

 There are a number of things I can do to help p0s.

  - A few specific bugs: 3295 (percent encoding is horribly,
  embarrassingly broken -- in at least 5 different ways), 2931 (split
  blocks evenly between splitfile segments -- should help dramatically
  with availability), fixing top block healing on splitfiles (discussed
  in 3358).

 Skeptical on priority re 3295, but I guess I should look into it. IMHO it
 is critical that the top block be redundant, hence MHKs. Dunno re relative
 priority with f2f web proxy though.

  - Low-latency inserts flag as per 3338.  (I know, most people probably
  don't care all that much, but I'd really like to see whether Freenet
  can hit near-real-time latencies for the messaging app I'm working
  on.)
 
  Also, it's worth considering other ways to make darknet connections
  more useful (in addition to this, whether before or after I don't have
  a strong opinion on).  Enabling direct transfer of large files would
  be good (at a bare minimum, this shouldn't fail silently like it does
  right now).

 ljb is working on this as we speak. The problem is simply persistence - if
 the node restarts before you accept the transfer, it will break. But he
 will do some improvements to the UI as well e.g. showing the transfers on
 the downloads page.

  Improving messaging would be good; I should be able to
  see recently sent / received messages (including timestamps), queue a
  message to be sent when a peer comes online, and tell whether a
  message I've sent arrived successfully.

 I think most of this is within ljb's remit? ljb? vive?

  Evan Daniel

Is there any defined roadmap for 0.8 yet ? If not, it might be good to clear 
things up, and decides which features are must have and which aren't.
For instance, a F2F proxy is a great idea, but it's another feature plan on 
top of an already good filled list. It gives the impression of unconsistency (I 
said impression ;) )

(Also, I'm not on irc since a while, so I don't know what's really happening, 
so if this question has already been answered, just ignore me :) )
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] Hello Freenet (& design feedback)

[Clément]

Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 21:00:45, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Monday 20 July 2009 17:08:50 brendan at artvote.com wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > Over the past couple months I've been speaking with Ian about your
> > fascinating project and recently, he's asked me to give feedback on the
> > new site design so I've included a previous email addressing that below.
> > Looking forward to more conversations with each of you!
> > -Brendan
> > p.s. Here's my brief bio: I am a digital product designer, interested in
> > interactive design, information architecture, user experience, business
> > strategy, and generally making life easier and more fun.
> >
> > //
> >
> > Hi Ian,
> >
> >  Overall, I think that this visual design is a nice step forward. The
> > navigation is clearer, and having a single column structure gives you
> > room for a left hand navigation down the road on lower-level pages,
> > should you need it.
> >
> >  As far as color, do you have sense of what you want the brand colors to
> > be? It looks like the new release of the app, and the logo mark, are
> > blue. Perhaps consider having a blue-tone color theme rather that the
> > black grey theme. Having the header black makes it feel "dark". I would
> > be mindful of the connotations that "darkness" has (good and bad). Might
> > be interesting to see a lighter treatment. Perhaps blue and grey of
> > beige?
> >
> >  (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
> > pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense to
> > address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
> > page-level content.)
> >
> >  That's pretty much my first blush on design.
> >
> >  I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
> > I've included below (1&2).
> >
> >  PAGE: Home page:
> >  http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html
> >
> >  1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
> > install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
> > preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make the
> > label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few bullets
> > above the button to describe the installation process. For instance:
> > "Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the following:
> >
> > ? Download and automatically open the installer
> > ? Set your security preference and connection speed
> > ? Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial"
> >  ["Install Freenet now" = button label]
> >
> >  2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
> > "Click to View Screenshots" under the one on the right, and on the
> > destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
> > Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
> > description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
> > additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and
> > a link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the home
> > page.
> >
> >  I like the "Latest News" item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
> > That's good.
> >
> >  Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.
> >
> >  Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
> > how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
> > "product features" page with iconography and a quick description of each
> > feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
> > proposition' (Ex. "Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free
> > Network." - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that
> > explains this in a bit more detail.)
> >
> >  Here's a big structure idea. It looks like there are two main content
> > areas: Content related to the app: And, content related to the Freenet
> > Project. In the future, restructuring the site, and making a clear
> > distinction between these two types of content, could really help the
> > overall UX and usability of the site. This type of structure would also
> > help a broader audience to self-segment and get to their desired content
> > more easily.
> >
> >  Best,
> > Brendan
>
> I have deployed the current website redesign, which is essentially Dieppe's
> work with much feedback from here. It is working, the only problem is the
> translation page is empty: http://freenetproject.org/translation.html
>
> Should we remove it for now?
>
Sure, I just wanted to put an howto for translators there, but well, I don't 
know the translation process. And I'm too busy right now to do it.
> IMHO the new site is an improvement over the old one, especially with the
> big download button. However I'm sure we could further improve it.
Well, there's room for improvment, yes. I can start to work on that after my 
internship, which ends the 18 september. I'll still have a report to 

Re: [freenet-dev] Hello Freenet ( design feedback)

[Clément]

Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 21:00:45, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Monday 20 July 2009 17:08:50 bren...@artvote.com wrote:
  Hi All,
  Over the past couple months I've been speaking with Ian about your
  fascinating project and recently, he's asked me to give feedback on the
  new site design so I've included a previous email addressing that below.
  Looking forward to more conversations with each of you!
  -Brendan
  p.s. Here's my brief bio: I am a digital product designer, interested in
  interactive design, information architecture, user experience, business
  strategy, and generally making life easier and more fun.
 
  //
 
  Hi Ian,
 
   Overall, I think that this visual design is a nice step forward. The
  navigation is clearer, and having a single column structure gives you
  room for a left hand navigation down the road on lower-level pages,
  should you need it.
 
   As far as color, do you have sense of what you want the brand colors to
  be? It looks like the new release of the app, and the logo mark, are
  blue. Perhaps consider having a blue-tone color theme rather that the
  black grey theme. Having the header black makes it feel dark. I would
  be mindful of the connotations that darkness has (good and bad). Might
  be interesting to see a lighter treatment. Perhaps blue and grey of
  beige?
 
   (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
  pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense to
  address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
  page-level content.)
 
   That's pretty much my first blush on design.
 
   I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
  I've included below (12).
 
   PAGE: Home page:
   http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html
 
   1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
  install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
  preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make the
  label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few bullets
  above the button to describe the installation process. For instance:
  Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the following:
 
  · Download and automatically open the installer
  · Set your security preference and connection speed
  · Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial
   [Install Freenet now = button label]
 
   2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
  Click to View Screenshots under the one on the right, and on the
  destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
  Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
  description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
  additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and
  a link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the home
  page.
 
   I like the Latest News item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
  That's good.
 
   Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.
 
   Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
  how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
  product features page with iconography and a quick description of each
  feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
  proposition' (Ex. Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free
  Network. - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that
  explains this in a bit more detail.)
 
   Here's a big structure idea. It looks like there are two main content
  areas: Content related to the app: And, content related to the Freenet
  Project. In the future, restructuring the site, and making a clear
  distinction between these two types of content, could really help the
  overall UX and usability of the site. This type of structure would also
  help a broader audience to self-segment and get to their desired content
  more easily.
 
   Best,
  Brendan

 I have deployed the current website redesign, which is essentially Dieppe's
 work with much feedback from here. It is working, the only problem is the
 translation page is empty: http://freenetproject.org/translation.html

 Should we remove it for now?

Sure, I just wanted to put an howto for translators there, but well, I don't 
know the translation process. And I'm too busy right now to do it.
 IMHO the new site is an improvement over the old one, especially with the
 big download button. However I'm sure we could further improve it.
Well, there's room for improvment, yes. I can start to work on that after my 
internship, which ends the 18 september. I'll still have a report to do, so I 
think I'll work on that in the beginning of october ; of course, if anyone 
wants to improve it, don't hesitate. The most important thing to do being the 
screenshots, which should be quite 

[freenet-dev] Hello Freenet (& design feedback)

[Clément]

Le mercredi 22 juillet 2009 16:45:43, brendan at artvote.com a ?crit :
[...]
>  > (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
>  > pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense
>  > to address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
>  > page-level content.)
>  >
>  > That's pretty much my first blush on design.
>  >
>  > I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
>  > I've included below (1&2).
>  >
>  > PAGE: Home page:
>  > http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html
>  >
>  > 1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
>  > install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
>  > preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make
>  > the label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few
>  > bullets above the button to describe the installation process. For
>  > instance: "Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the
>  > following:
>  >
>  > ? Download and automatically open the installer
>  > ? Set your security preference and connection speed
>  > ? Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial"
>  > ["Install Freenet now" = button label]
>
>  Hum, that's a good idea, but I can see a problem : we use javascript to
> detect the OS, and display only the right button. But, if javascript is
> turned off, or the browser doesn't send the name of the OS it's running on,
> we show all three buttons.
>  So, if we add the little paragraph above, with no js, it will looks like
> this
>
>  [Win button]
>  [Paragraph above]
>  [MacOS button]
>  [Linux/unix button]
>
>  And I'm not sure it would be clear for the user.
>
>  <--
>  Can we auto-detect their platform and just serve them the appropriate
> button (and content) for that platform? (we can include a link to a
> separate download page where they can download for other platforms - "Click
> here to download the app for other operating systems"). I think the main
> idea is to make it as simple as possible for them to download it for their
> platform off the homepage AND to let them know what will happen whne they
> initiate the download/install process. How does that sound?
>  -Brendan
>  -->
>
In fact, we do detect their platform, but we use javascript. So there are two 
issues here :
the user disabled the javascript (we should use server-side identification, 
ian's right),
the user doesn't send the information we need.
In both case, right now, we show all the buttons.
The problem is that javawebstart is not used for windows, and if we show all 
the buttons, we need to show the little description above. But if we do that, 
it might be very confusing for windows users.
So, if we use server side identification, we reduce this to one case. But we 
have to think of it, don't we ?
>  > 2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
>  > "Click to View Screenshots" under the one on the right, and on the
>  > destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
>  > Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
>  > description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
>  > additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and
>  > a link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the
>  > home page.
>
>  Yeah, screenshot suck right now. To tell the truth, I didn't focused on
> it, since we don't have any good looking screenshot, and I was waiting for
> it. Plus, we don't know what to do :
>  one screenshot, as it is now, reduced (which looks ugly), linking to the
>  screenshots page ?
>  several screenshots focused on features, like
>  http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/ ?
>  I'd vote for the second one (but it needs more screenshots...).
>
>  > I like the "Latest News" item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
>  > That's good.
>
>  Cool :)
>
>  > Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.
>  >
>  > Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
>  > how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
>  > "product features" page with iconography and a quick description of each
>  > feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
>  > proposition' (Ex. "Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free
>  > Network." - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that
>  > explains this in a bit more detail.)
>
>  Good idea.
>
>  > Here's a big structure idea. It looks like there are two main content
>  > areas: Content related to the app: And, content related to the Freenet
>  > Project. In the future, restructuring the site, and making a clear
>  > distinction between these two types of content, could really help the
>  > overall UX and usability of the site. This type of structure would also
>  > help a broader audience 

Re: [freenet-dev] Hello Freenet ( design feedback)

[Clément]

Le mercredi 22 juillet 2009 16:45:43, bren...@artvote.com a écrit :
[...]
   (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
   pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense
   to address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
   page-level content.)
  
   That's pretty much my first blush on design.
  
   I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
   I've included below (12).
  
   PAGE: Home page:
   http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html
  
   1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
   install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
   preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make
   the label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few
   bullets above the button to describe the installation process. For
   instance: Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the
   following:
  
   ? Download and automatically open the installer
   ? Set your security preference and connection speed
   ? Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial
   [Install Freenet now = button label]

  Hum, that's a good idea, but I can see a problem : we use javascript to
 detect the OS, and display only the right button. But, if javascript is
 turned off, or the browser doesn't send the name of the OS it's running on,
 we show all three buttons.
  So, if we add the little paragraph above, with no js, it will looks like
 this

  [Win button]
  [Paragraph above]
  [MacOS button]
  [Linux/unix button]

  And I'm not sure it would be clear for the user.

  --
  Can we auto-detect their platform and just serve them the appropriate
 button (and content) for that platform? (we can include a link to a
 separate download page where they can download for other platforms - Click
 here to download the app for other operating systems). I think the main
 idea is to make it as simple as possible for them to download it for their
 platform off the homepage AND to let them know what will happen whne they
 initiate the download/install process. How does that sound?
  -Brendan
  --

In fact, we do detect their platform, but we use javascript. So there are two 
issues here :
the user disabled the javascript (we should use server-side identification, 
ian's right),
the user doesn't send the information we need.
In both case, right now, we show all the buttons.
The problem is that javawebstart is not used for windows, and if we show all 
the buttons, we need to show the little description above. But if we do that, 
it might be very confusing for windows users.
So, if we use server side identification, we reduce this to one case. But we 
have to think of it, don't we ?
   2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
   Click to View Screenshots under the one on the right, and on the
   destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
   Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
   description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
   additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and
   a link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the
   home page.

  Yeah, screenshot suck right now. To tell the truth, I didn't focused on
 it, since we don't have any good looking screenshot, and I was waiting for
 it. Plus, we don't know what to do :
  one screenshot, as it is now, reduced (which looks ugly), linking to the
  screenshots page ?
  several screenshots focused on features, like
  http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/ ?
  I'd vote for the second one (but it needs more screenshots...).

   I like the Latest News item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
   That's good.

  Cool :)

   Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.
  
   Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
   how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
   product features page with iconography and a quick description of each
   feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
   proposition' (Ex. Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free
   Network. - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that
   explains this in a bit more detail.)

  Good idea.

   Here's a big structure idea. It looks like there are two main content
   areas: Content related to the app: And, content related to the Freenet
   Project. In the future, restructuring the site, and making a clear
   distinction between these two types of content, could really help the
   overall UX and usability of the site. This type of structure would also
   help a broader audience to self-segment and get to their desired content
   more easily.

  Well, I'd like more input on this if it's possible, because that's what I
  wanted to do, but 

[freenet-dev] Hello Freenet (& design feedback)

[Clément]

Le lundi 20 juillet 2009 18:08:50, brendan at artvote.com a ?crit :
> Hi All,
> Over the past couple months I've been speaking with Ian about your
> fascinating project and recently, he's asked me to give feedback on the new
> site design so I've included a previous email addressing that below.
> Looking forward to more conversations with each of you!
> -Brendan
> p.s. Here's my brief bio: I am a digital product designer, interested in
> interactive design, information architecture, user experience, business
> strategy, and generally making life easier and more fun.
>
> //
>
> Hi Ian,
>
>  Overall, I think that this visual design is a nice step forward. The
> navigation is clearer, and having a single column structure gives you room
> for a left hand navigation down the road on lower-level pages, should you
> need it.
>
>  As far as color, do you have sense of what you want the brand colors to
> be? It looks like the new release of the app, and the logo mark, are blue.
> Perhaps consider having a blue-tone color theme rather that the black grey
> theme. Having the header black makes it feel "dark". I would be mindful of
> the connotations that "darkness" has (good and bad). Might be interesting
> to see a lighter treatment. Perhaps blue and grey of beige?
>
That's true that we (I and my girlfriend) didn't think of that when we choosed 
the colors. We took black and gray color because it generally looks clean, and 
it help making a contrast with the reading zone (which is white here). But I 
agree those colors don't mean anything. 
With the current site, I choosed a blue gradient (which looks old) to white, 
because it give a feeling of "freedom" (sky, ...).
Anyway, all that to say : I'll try with the colors you mentioned :)
>  (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
> pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense to
> address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
> page-level content.)
>
>  That's pretty much my first blush on design.
>
>  I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
> I've included below (1&2).
>
>  PAGE: Home page:
>  http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html
>
>  1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
> install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
> preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make the
> label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few bullets
> above the button to describe the installation process. For instance:
> "Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the following:
>
> ? Download and automatically open the installer
> ? Set your security preference and connection speed
> ? Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial"
>  ["Install Freenet now" = button label]
>
Hum, that's a good idea, but I can see a problem : we use javascript to detect 
the OS, and display only the right button. But, if javascript is turned off, or 
the browser doesn't send the name of the OS it's running on, we show all three 
buttons.
So, if we add the little paragraph above, with no js, it will looks like this 
:
[Win button]
[Paragraph above]
[MacOS button]
[Linux/unix button]

And I'm not sure it would be clear for the user. 
>  2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
> "Click to View Screenshots" under the one on the right, and on the
> destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
> Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
> description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
> additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and a
> link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the home
> page.
>
Yeah, screenshot suck right now. To tell the truth, I didn't focused on it, 
since we don't have any good looking screenshot, and I was waiting for it.
Plus, we don't know what to do :
one screenshot, as it is now, reduced (which looks ugly), linking to the 
screenshots page ?
several screenshots focused on features, like 
http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/ ?
I'd vote for the second one (but it needs more screenshots...).
>  I like the "Latest News" item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
> That's good.
>
Cool :)
>  Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.
>
>  Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
> how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
> "product features" page with iconography and a quick description of each
> feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
> proposition' (Ex. "Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free Network."
> - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that explains this in
> a bit more detail.)
>
Good idea.
>  Here's a big structure 

Re: [freenet-dev] Hello Freenet ( design feedback)

[Clément]

Le lundi 20 juillet 2009 18:08:50, bren...@artvote.com a écrit :
 Hi All,
 Over the past couple months I've been speaking with Ian about your
 fascinating project and recently, he's asked me to give feedback on the new
 site design so I've included a previous email addressing that below.
 Looking forward to more conversations with each of you!
 -Brendan
 p.s. Here's my brief bio: I am a digital product designer, interested in
 interactive design, information architecture, user experience, business
 strategy, and generally making life easier and more fun.

 //

 Hi Ian,

  Overall, I think that this visual design is a nice step forward. The
 navigation is clearer, and having a single column structure gives you room
 for a left hand navigation down the road on lower-level pages, should you
 need it.

  As far as color, do you have sense of what you want the brand colors to
 be? It looks like the new release of the app, and the logo mark, are blue.
 Perhaps consider having a blue-tone color theme rather that the black grey
 theme. Having the header black makes it feel dark. I would be mindful of
 the connotations that darkness has (good and bad). Might be interesting
 to see a lighter treatment. Perhaps blue and grey of beige?

That's true that we (I and my girlfriend) didn't think of that when we choosed 
the colors. We took black and gray color because it generally looks clean, and 
it help making a contrast with the reading zone (which is white here). But I 
agree those colors don't mean anything. 
With the current site, I choosed a blue gradient (which looks old) to white, 
because it give a feeling of freedom (sky, ...).
Anyway, all that to say : I'll try with the colors you mentioned :)
  (As far as information design and the presentation of the content on the
 pages, see the comments below on structure and content. It makes sense to
 address the larger questions prior to focusing the presentation of
 page-level content.)

  That's pretty much my first blush on design.

  I think there are a couple quick-wins that are usability related, that
 I've included below (12).

  PAGE: Home page:
  http://amphibian.dyndns.org.nyud.net/freenet/newsite/index.html

  1. Since you've opted to have the app installer automatically begin the
 install after they click (instead of downloading first) Here are a few
 preparatory steps you might want to include to prepare the suer. Make the
 label on the button more descriptive and consider adding a few bullets
 above the button to describe the installation process. For instance:
 Getting started is easy! When you install, you'll do the following:

 · Download and automatically open the installer
 · Set your security preference and connection speed
 · Explore the feature through the Getting Started Tutorial
  [Install Freenet now = button label]

Hum, that's a good idea, but I can see a problem : we use javascript to detect 
the OS, and display only the right button. But, if javascript is turned off, or 
the browser doesn't send the name of the OS it's running on, we show all three 
buttons.
So, if we add the little paragraph above, with no js, it will looks like this 
:
[Win button]
[Paragraph above]
[MacOS button]
[Linux/unix button]

And I'm not sure it would be clear for the user. 
  2. Screenshots are great to have. Consider adding a trigger that says
 Click to View Screenshots under the one on the right, and on the
 destination page, add more screenshots and label what those screens are.
 Currently the destination page is just a single larger screenshot. Add a
 description telling the user which screen they are looking at and add
 additional screens of other parts of the app beneath it on this page and a
 link at the bottom to take the user back to the previous page, the home
 page.

Yeah, screenshot suck right now. To tell the truth, I didn't focused on it, 
since we don't have any good looking screenshot, and I was waiting for it.
Plus, we don't know what to do :
one screenshot, as it is now, reduced (which looks ugly), linking to the 
screenshots page ?
several screenshots focused on features, like 
http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/ ?
I'd vote for the second one (but it needs more screenshots...).
  I like the Latest News item. Feels like a 'heartbeat' on the site.
 That's good.

Cool :)
  Here's some additional food for though regarding content and structure.

  Have a look at panic.com or http://www.panic.com/transmit/ and check out
 how they have loads of features on the product page. Consider having a
 product features page with iconography and a quick description of each
 feature. This is a nice way to pay off your central product 'value
 proposition' (Ex. Share, Chat, Browse. Anonymously. On the Free Network.
 - Then give a list of features somewhere on the site that explains this in
 a bit more detail.)

Good idea.
  Here's a big structure idea. It looks like there are two main content
 areas: Content related to the app: And, content 

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 04:11:55, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> Another issue:
> http://img.skitch.com/20090718-gh33u8bcfjjig6fj4prdgigc1q.png Note the
> "Start" text strays outside the button.
>
Should be fixed. The thing is, at a certain font size, it can't fit the button, 
whatever I try to do.
A solution would be to cut the button in three parts, with a resizable central 
one. But right now, I don't have time to do such a change. Maybe in the 
future.
Anyway, I think that it should looks good in almost all situations now.
> We're getting there!
>
> Ian.

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 12:49:24, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Friday 17 July 2009 19:05:48 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> > > Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:
> > >
> > > http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png
> > >
> > > This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
> > > Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
> > > server-side.
> >
> > I had the same problem using konqueror. Are you sure that safari 4 is
> > sending identification about the OS too ? (it wasn't the case in
> > konqueror)
>
> So this particular javascript is incompatible with WebKit. Fix it. :)

Well, no, the problem was that konqueror (I don't know if it's the case by 
default) wasn't sending the identification string (and, if it doesn't send it, 
we can receive it and know on which OS it runs).

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 00:40:09, Colin Davis a ?crit :
> I really do think this site looks great. Much more visually appealing
> than the current endeavor, and more importantly,  likely to drive people
> to huge download button.
>
> One question on the screenshot- It looks like you're including the
> entire full-size screenshot, then shrinking it in the browser..
> Is intentional, rather than using a thumbnail?
> I can see an advantage in that it would decrease the load-time of the
> full-image, if clicked, but it also makes that initial page take far
> longer to download than is necessary.
>
Ah, no, nothing intentional, it wasn't intended to be the "official" 
screenshot, 
so I just went the easiest way.
Once I know which screenshot will be used, I'll fix that (which will also fix 
the fact that it looks ugly on small connections when the css isn't loaded 
yet).
> -Colin
>
> Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
> >
> > So, the question is quite simple :
> >
> > is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
> > deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dieppe
> > ___
> > Devl mailing list
> > Devl at freenetproject.org
> > http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 00:11:05, Juiceman a ?crit :
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Cl?ment wrote:
> > Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009 05:22:28, Juiceman a ?crit :
> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Victor Denisov 
wrote:
> >> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >> > Hash: SHA1
> >> >
> >> >> Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
> >> >> europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as
> >> >> proposed by Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.
> >> >
> >> > My main idea was that unless we increase the page width (or use a
> >> > rubber layout), full screenshots of any kind will look lame. So I
> >> > propose to create one or more *partial* screenshots, focusing on the
> >> > software's primary features (or a single most important feature, if
> >> > we're to use only one screenshot). Basically, cut out a meaningful
> >> > properly sized part (say, 320x200) of the 1024x768 screenshot and dim
> >> > and round the edges so that it won't be out of place.
> >> >
> >> > Also, I just don't remember if it was proposed and/or striken down
> >> > already, but I'd change the primary heading from "Share, chat and
> >> > browse anonymously on the Free Network" to "Share. Chat. Browse.
> >> > Anonymously. On the Free Network". I feel that separating primary
> >> > words with dots makes for a better impression as a) all words are
> >> > capitalized, suggesting equal importance (unlike original, which
> >> > emphasizes "share") and b) each word stands for a specific feature in
> >> > Freenet.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, again as a minor point - justification in the header must go,
> >> > IMHO.
> >>
> >> I posted this earlier with a screenshot, but it is hung up in
> >> moderation...
> >>
> >> I think the title "Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free
> >> Network" needs to extend across the top of the page instead of being
> >> squished into a column.  The text and screenshots can remain in their
> >> respective columns below it.
> >
> > Ok, I've done that.
> >
> > Now, unless there is still problem displaying the site in IE or another
> > browser, I won't touch the website anymore. If someone provides good
> > screenshots of Freenet (centered on features), I'll change the homepage
> > to integrate them.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dieppe
>
> I like it!  =)
>
> Were you going to put a "report broken link" button somewhere?
Ok, just pushed (won't appear on the preview site). It will be in the footer.
However, I need to know where to make it link to (for now, it links to 
null at null.null ...).
> Also the "download freenet" links point to
> http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-FREENETVERSION.exe
> is that something that gets a variable set by Toad on release?
If I understood well, yes.
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 12:49:24, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
 On Friday 17 July 2009 19:05:48 Clément wrote:
  Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a écrit :
   Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:
  
   http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png
  
   This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
   Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
   server-side.
 
  I had the same problem using konqueror. Are you sure that safari 4 is
  sending identification about the OS too ? (it wasn't the case in
  konqueror)

 So this particular javascript is incompatible with WebKit. Fix it. :)

Well, no, the problem was that konqueror (I don't know if it's the case by 
default) wasn't sending the identification string (and, if it doesn't send it, 
we can receive it and know on which OS it runs).
___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 04:11:55, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 Another issue:
 http://img.skitch.com/20090718-gh33u8bcfjjig6fj4prdgigc1q.png Note the
 Start text strays outside the button.

Should be fixed. The thing is, at a certain font size, it can't fit the button, 
whatever I try to do.
A solution would be to cut the button in three parts, with a resizable central 
one. But right now, I don't have time to do such a change. Maybe in the 
future.
Anyway, I think that it should looks good in almost all situations now.
 We're getting there!

 Ian.

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009 05:22:28, Juiceman a ?crit :
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Victor Denisov 
> wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >> Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
> >> europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as proposed
> >> by Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.
> >
> > My main idea was that unless we increase the page width (or use a rubber
> > layout), full screenshots of any kind will look lame. So I propose to
> > create one or more *partial* screenshots, focusing on the software's
> > primary features (or a single most important feature, if we're to use
> > only one screenshot). Basically, cut out a meaningful properly sized
> > part (say, 320x200) of the 1024x768 screenshot and dim and round the
> > edges so that it won't be out of place.
> >
> > Also, I just don't remember if it was proposed and/or striken down
> > already, but I'd change the primary heading from "Share, chat and browse
> > anonymously on the Free Network" to "Share. Chat. Browse. Anonymously.
> > On the Free Network". I feel that separating primary words with dots
> > makes for a better impression as a) all words are capitalized,
> > suggesting equal importance (unlike original, which emphasizes "share")
> > and b) each word stands for a specific feature in Freenet.
> >
> > Finally, again as a minor point - justification in the header must go,
> > IMHO.
>
> I posted this earlier with a screenshot, but it is hung up in moderation...
>
> I think the title "Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free
> Network" needs to extend across the top of the page instead of being
> squished into a column.  The text and screenshots can remain in their
> respective columns below it.

Ok, I've done that.

Now, unless there is still problem displaying the site in IE or another 
browser, I won't touch the website anymore. If someone provides good 
screenshots of Freenet (centered on features), I'll change the homepage to 
integrate them.

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:
>
> http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png
>
> This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
> Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
> server-side.
>

I had the same problem using konqueror. Are you sure that safari 4 is sending 
identification about the OS too ? (it wasn't the case in konqueror)

> Also, can't we get a better screenshot?  That one really doesn't look
> appealing, you can barely make out what it is saying, and that theme
> is rather bland :-/
>
> Ian.
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > Definitely progress, the spacing is still weird on this text:
> >
> >  http://img.skitch.com/20090716-tuwgbrc2pjgh27t73br7q6859s.png
> >
> > I've asked some people for their feedback too.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Cl?ment wrote:
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
> >>
> >> So, the question is quite simple :
> >>
> >> is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
> >> deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Dieppe
> >> ___
> >> Devl mailing list
> >> Devl at freenetproject.org
> >> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
> >
> > --
> > Ian Clarke
> > CEO, Uprizer Labs
> > Email: ian at uprizer.com
> > Ph: +1 512 422 3588
> > Fax: +1 512 276 6674

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009 01:22:35, M a ?crit :
> Nope it isn't ready yet.
>
> Here is what I see with Internet explorer 8:
> http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4562/ie8n.jpg
>
> Problems with ie8:
>
> - title bar & flags, appears 3 times.
I tried something, hope it works...
> - text justification title has wide empty spaces in the tilte. Imho it
> would be better to remove the justification (align left).
Done.
> - download button is not centered (it is too close to the text)
Dunno how to do for this one. And I don't have ie on my computer (and won't 
install it). I tried something (remove the float: left; for the download class, 
since it (seems to) change nothing, and maybe the cause of the misplaced 
button), but I can't garantee the result.
>
> And here is what I see with Firefox 3.5:
> http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7895/firefox35k.jpg
>
> Problem with Firefox 3.5:
> - where are the language flags is see when opening the page with ie8?
> They don't appear with Firefox 3.5.
>
That's how it is supposed to be : they won't appear until we have a 
translation.
>
> This is at res 1920x1080 on win7.
>
> Le 7/16/2009 22:39, Cl?ment a ?crit :
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
> >
> > So, the question is quite simple :
> >
> > is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
> > deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dieppe
> > ___
> > Devl mailing list
> > Devl at freenetproject.org
> > http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 23:25:57, Victor Denisov a ?crit :
> > Also, can't we get a better screenshot?  That one really doesn't look
> > appealing, you can barely make out what it is saying, and that theme
> > is rather bland :-/
>
> If I might suggest, I don't think that *any* screenshot will look
> appealing when scaled down to a 320x200 box. I've seen several sites
> using cropped screenshots for just this reason - they were highlighting
> a specific feature or an important part of the interface, not the whole
> screen. I think we should show the most important part - namely,
> connections to Friends - here.
>
> Also, a minor nitpick. For users on slower connections, sometimes the
> screenshot itself starts loading before the CSS (which does the scaling)
> is fully loaded. In this case, since screenshot is relatively large, the
> page sure looks ugly for a few seconds (I know it happened to me when I
> tried to see the site through a busy public WiFi spot). I think it would
> be better to scale it using width and height attributes of the img tag
> and/or scale the image itself beforehand).
>
Ok, I'll do that once I know if we use the method proposed above, or if we 
stick with one screenshot.
> Regards,
> Victor Denisov.
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl

[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:
>
> http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png
>
> This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
> Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
> server-side.
>

Well, we need to find a proper solution yes. For now, it should looks better 
when javascript is enabled and the OS isn't found with a newer version (just 
shows the message, and not the buttons).

The thing is, if javascript is disable, it will show the four buttons (we can 
merge the macos one with the jws, so it will be only 3). However, this is the 
behaviour of http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/.

And since we're not using php anymore, I don't think we can do it server side.

> Also, can't we get a better screenshot?  That one really doesn't look
> appealing, you can barely make out what it is saying, and that theme
> is rather bland :-/
>
> Ian.
>

Well, I already said that I needed good screenshots. Nobody answered, so I 
just made one quickly, with the theme I prefer (:p). Now, if anyone can make 
good screenshots, I agree it would be best.

Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as proposed by 
Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.

So, once again : what would be best, and more important, do we need to 
consider this as a blocker before deploy the website ? (I think we shouldn't, 
because even with a not-so-beautiful screenshot, the new website looks better 
than the current one).

> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > Definitely progress, the spacing is still weird on this text:
> >
> >  http://img.skitch.com/20090716-tuwgbrc2pjgh27t73br7q6859s.png
> >
Will fix that too (but I don't think it should be considered as blocking the 
deployement).
> > I've asked some people for their feedback too.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Cl?ment wrote:
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
> >>
> >> So, the question is quite simple :
> >>
> >> is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
> >> deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Dieppe
> >> ___
> >> Devl mailing list
> >> Devl at freenetproject.org
> >> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
> >
> > --
> > Ian Clarke
> > CEO, Uprizer Labs
> > Email: ian at uprizer.com
> > Ph: +1 512 422 3588
> > Fax: +1 512 276 6674

Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:

 http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png

 This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
 Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
 server-side.


I had the same problem using konqueror. Are you sure that safari 4 is sending 
identification about the OS too ? (it wasn't the case in konqueror)

 Also, can't we get a better screenshot?  That one really doesn't look
 appealing, you can barely make out what it is saying, and that theme
 is rather bland :-/

 Ian.

 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ian Clarkei...@locut.us wrote:
  Definitely progress, the spacing is still weird on this text:
 
   http://img.skitch.com/20090716-tuwgbrc2pjgh27t73br7q6859s.png
 
  I've asked some people for their feedback too.
 
  Ian.
 
  On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Clémentcvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hello all,
 
  Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
 
  So, the question is quite simple :
 
  is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
  deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
 
  Regards,
 
  Dieppe
  ___
  Devl mailing list
  Devl@freenetproject.org
  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
 
  --
  Ian Clarke
  CEO, Uprizer Labs
  Email: i...@uprizer.com
  Ph: +1 512 422 3588
  Fax: +1 512 276 6674

___
Devl mailing list
Devl@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009 05:22:28, Juiceman a écrit :
 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Victor Denisovvdeni...@redline.ru wrote:
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1
 
  Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
  europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as proposed
  by Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.
 
  My main idea was that unless we increase the page width (or use a rubber
  layout), full screenshots of any kind will look lame. So I propose to
  create one or more *partial* screenshots, focusing on the software's
  primary features (or a single most important feature, if we're to use
  only one screenshot). Basically, cut out a meaningful properly sized
  part (say, 320x200) of the 1024x768 screenshot and dim and round the
  edges so that it won't be out of place.
 
  Also, I just don't remember if it was proposed and/or striken down
  already, but I'd change the primary heading from Share, chat and browse
  anonymously on the Free Network to Share. Chat. Browse. Anonymously.
  On the Free Network. I feel that separating primary words with dots
  makes for a better impression as a) all words are capitalized,
  suggesting equal importance (unlike original, which emphasizes share)
  and b) each word stands for a specific feature in Freenet.
 
  Finally, again as a minor point - justification in the header must go,
  IMHO.

 I posted this earlier with a screenshot, but it is hung up in moderation...

 I think the title Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free
 Network needs to extend across the top of the page instead of being
 squished into a column.  The text and screenshots can remain in their
 respective columns below it.

Ok, I've done that.

Now, unless there is still problem displaying the site in IE or another 
browser, I won't touch the website anymore. If someone provides good 
screenshots of Freenet (centered on features), I'll change the homepage to 
integrate them.

Regards,

Dieppe
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 00:11:05, Juiceman a écrit :
 On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Clémentcvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  Le vendredi 17 juillet 2009 05:22:28, Juiceman a écrit :
  On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Victor Denisovvdeni...@redline.ru 
wrote:
   -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
   Hash: SHA1
  
   Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
   europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as
   proposed by Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.
  
   My main idea was that unless we increase the page width (or use a
   rubber layout), full screenshots of any kind will look lame. So I
   propose to create one or more *partial* screenshots, focusing on the
   software's primary features (or a single most important feature, if
   we're to use only one screenshot). Basically, cut out a meaningful
   properly sized part (say, 320x200) of the 1024x768 screenshot and dim
   and round the edges so that it won't be out of place.
  
   Also, I just don't remember if it was proposed and/or striken down
   already, but I'd change the primary heading from Share, chat and
   browse anonymously on the Free Network to Share. Chat. Browse.
   Anonymously. On the Free Network. I feel that separating primary
   words with dots makes for a better impression as a) all words are
   capitalized, suggesting equal importance (unlike original, which
   emphasizes share) and b) each word stands for a specific feature in
   Freenet.
  
   Finally, again as a minor point - justification in the header must go,
   IMHO.
 
  I posted this earlier with a screenshot, but it is hung up in
  moderation...
 
  I think the title Share, chat and browse anonymously on the Free
  Network needs to extend across the top of the page instead of being
  squished into a column.  The text and screenshots can remain in their
  respective columns below it.
 
  Ok, I've done that.
 
  Now, unless there is still problem displaying the site in IE or another
  browser, I won't touch the website anymore. If someone provides good
  screenshots of Freenet (centered on features), I'll change the homepage
  to integrate them.
 
  Regards,
 
  Dieppe

 I like it!  =)

 Were you going to put a report broken link button somewhere?
Ok, just pushed (won't appear on the preview site). It will be in the footer.
However, I need to know where to make it link to (for now, it links to 
n...@null.null ...).
 Also the download freenet links point to
 http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-FREENETVERSION.exe
 is that something that gets a variable set by Toad on release?
If I understood well, yes.
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le samedi 18 juillet 2009 00:40:09, Colin Davis a écrit :
 I really do think this site looks great. Much more visually appealing
 than the current endeavor, and more importantly,  likely to drive people
 to huge download button.

 One question on the screenshot- It looks like you're including the
 entire full-size screenshot, then shrinking it in the browser..
 Is intentional, rather than using a thumbnail?
 I can see an advantage in that it would decrease the load-time of the
 full-image, if clicked, but it also makes that initial page take far
 longer to download than is necessary.

Ah, no, nothing intentional, it wasn't intended to be the official 
screenshot, 
so I just went the easiest way.
Once I know which screenshot will be used, I'll fix that (which will also fix 
the fact that it looks ugly on small connections when the css isn't loaded 
yet).
 -Colin

 Clément wrote:
  Hello all,
 
  Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
 
  So, the question is quite simple :
 
  is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
  deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
 
  Regards,
 
  Dieppe
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[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Hello all,

Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.

So, the question is quite simple :

is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be 
deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?

Regards,

Dieppe

[freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 02:39:12, Juiceman a ?crit :
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Cl?ment wrote:
> > Le mercredi 15 juillet 2009 21:24:06, Colin Davis a ?crit :
> >> > It turns out to be easier to just generate it and post it here:
> >> >
> >> > http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/
> >> >
> >> > Is it acceptable? Can we deploy it on the main site?
> >>
> >>* If the user is on windows (Detectable using
> >> http://www.quirksmode.org/js/detect.html), we should link the Download
> >> button directly to
> >> http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-1222.exe
> >>
> >> Having to click on the Download button, then realize it's not
> >> downloading, and find the "Windows Instructions" might be difficult for
> >> some users.
> >> Ideally, when clicking the link, it would start the download, then
> >> redirect to a page that says "Freenet is now downloading. If there is a
> >> problem click [here] to  start the download again. Note for first time
> >> users/... etc, etc"
> >
> > Ok, I changed this. The current behavior is :
> >
> > if you're on windows, it shows the .exe
> > else, if you have a jws capable browser or mac os, it shows the jnlp link
> > else, if you have unix, it shows the jar
> >
> > if it's unable to detect the OS, it shows a message : go to the dl page
> > or turn on js.
> >
> > I'm not sure it's the best thing to do however (I mean the message).
> > Should we point to the jar by default (the problem is that it's not
> > compatible with windows).
> >
> >
> > So, please test it on : (the version with the message isn't uploaded yet
> > afaik)
> >
> > http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/
> >
> > and report each regression you can find.
> >
> > Imho, we can deploy the new site tomorow if there is no big problem.
> >
> >> -Colin
>
> I agree, things like font size and the like can be tweaked over the
> next few days...
>
> Things I found that do need fixing:
> Translation page is blank.  At least put a "under construction"
> placeholder. 
Well, this shouldn't be blank, but the script make a blank page (where the php 
page isn't blank...).
> The "try it" download link at the bottom of the about > What
> is
> Freenet? page doesn't work.
> There should be a button to "contact the webmaster" or "report a
> broken link".  Probably just a mailto: would be fine and I think it
> could go on the bottom banner.
Why not, but which adress should I put ? Is there a "website specific" adress ?
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[freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 13:02:23, Luke771 a ?crit :
> Colin Davis wrote:
> >* If the user is on windows (Detectable using
> > http://www.quirksmode.org/js/detect.html), we should link the Download
> > button directly to
> > http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-1222.exe
>
> No.
> A lot of users have a Windows desktop and a *nix server, and would run
> Freenet on the unix server.
> I say make one download page for everyone.. or possibly make different
> download pages according to the detected OS, but all of them including
> all the version, changing the order (detected OS up)
>
What we can do is detect the OS the user run (in most cases, the user will run 
Freenet on this computer), and add a message : "If your OS is incorrectly 
detected, click here.", with a link to the download page. 
In fact, this is how it is on the download page
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[freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 00:45:21, Ian Clarke a ?crit :
> It doesn't look good in my browser, the text is way too big:
>
> http://img.skitch.com/20090715-ckpgb5fa95t1pc1mr4dt2pfum4.png
>
> Ian.
>

Ah, yes...
I use small fonts, so I used font-size in css to emphasis the important things 
on the homepage. But it's too big yes. So I just reverted all that changes. 
Once it gets uploaded, tell me if it's good, ... or too small this time ;)

[freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le mercredi 15 juillet 2009 21:24:06, Colin Davis a ?crit :
> > It turns out to be easier to just generate it and post it here:
> >
> > http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/
> >
> > Is it acceptable? Can we deploy it on the main site?
>
>* If the user is on windows (Detectable using
> http://www.quirksmode.org/js/detect.html), we should link the Download
> button directly to
> http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-1222.exe
>
> Having to click on the Download button, then realize it's not
> downloading, and find the "Windows Instructions" might be difficult for
> some users.
> Ideally, when clicking the link, it would start the download, then
> redirect to a page that says "Freenet is now downloading. If there is a
> problem click [here] to  start the download again. Note for first time
> users/... etc, etc"
>

Ok, I changed this. The current behavior is :

if you're on windows, it shows the .exe
else, if you have a jws capable browser or mac os, it shows the jnlp link
else, if you have unix, it shows the jar

if it's unable to detect the OS, it shows a message : go to the dl page or 
turn on js.

I'm not sure it's the best thing to do however (I mean the message). Should we 
point to the jar by default (the problem is that it's not compatible with 
windows).


So, please test it on : (the version with the message isn't uploaded yet 
afaik)

http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/

and report each regression you can find.

Imho, we can deploy the new site tomorow if there is no big problem.
> -Colin
>
>
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 13:02:23, Luke771 a écrit :
 Colin Davis wrote:
 * If the user is on windows (Detectable using
  http://www.quirksmode.org/js/detect.html), we should link the Download
  button directly to
  http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-1222.exe

 No.
 A lot of users have a Windows desktop and a *nix server, and would run
 Freenet on the unix server.
 I say make one download page for everyone.. or possibly make different
 download pages according to the detected OS, but all of them including
 all the version, changing the order (detected OS up)

What we can do is detect the OS the user run (in most cases, the user will run 
Freenet on this computer), and add a message : If your OS is incorrectly 
detected, click here., with a link to the download page. 
In fact, this is how it is on the download page
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website design

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 02:39:12, Juiceman a écrit :
 On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Clémentcvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  Le mercredi 15 juillet 2009 21:24:06, Colin Davis a écrit :
   It turns out to be easier to just generate it and post it here:
  
   http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/
  
   Is it acceptable? Can we deploy it on the main site?
 
 * If the user is on windows (Detectable using
  http://www.quirksmode.org/js/detect.html), we should link the Download
  button directly to
  http://freenet.googlecode.com/files/FreenetInstaller-1222.exe
 
  Having to click on the Download button, then realize it's not
  downloading, and find the Windows Instructions might be difficult for
  some users.
  Ideally, when clicking the link, it would start the download, then
  redirect to a page that says Freenet is now downloading. If there is a
  problem click [here] to  start the download again. Note for first time
  users/... etc, etc
 
  Ok, I changed this. The current behavior is :
 
  if you're on windows, it shows the .exe
  else, if you have a jws capable browser or mac os, it shows the jnlp link
  else, if you have unix, it shows the jar
 
  if it's unable to detect the OS, it shows a message : go to the dl page
  or turn on js.
 
  I'm not sure it's the best thing to do however (I mean the message).
  Should we point to the jar by default (the problem is that it's not
  compatible with windows).
 
 
  So, please test it on : (the version with the message isn't uploaded yet
  afaik)
 
  http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/
 
  and report each regression you can find.
 
  Imho, we can deploy the new site tomorow if there is no big problem.
 
  -Colin

 I agree, things like font size and the like can be tweaked over the
 next few days...

 Things I found that do need fixing:
 Translation page is blank.  At least put a under construction
 placeholder. 
Well, this shouldn't be blank, but the script make a blank page (where the php 
page isn't blank...).
 The try it download link at the bottom of the about  What
 is
 Freenet? page doesn't work.
 There should be a button to contact the webmaster or report a
 broken link.  Probably just a mailto: would be fine and I think it
 could go on the bottom banner.
Why not, but which adress should I put ? Is there a website specific adress ?
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[freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Hello all,

Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.

So, the question is quite simple :

is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be 
deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?

Regards,

Dieppe
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Re: [freenet-dev] New website : is it ready ?

[Clément]

Le jeudi 16 juillet 2009 22:54:50, Ian Clarke a écrit :
 Also, sometimes I see all the download buttons, like this:

 http://img.skitch.com/20090716-bwpb43pdtg6pbedm5i99nkqyq.png

 This is in Safari 4 with Javascript definitely enabled.  Using
 Javascript for OS detection doesn't seem reliable - better to do it
 server-side.


Well, we need to find a proper solution yes. For now, it should looks better 
when javascript is enabled and the OS isn't found with a newer version (just 
shows the message, and not the buttons).

The thing is, if javascript is disable, it will show the four buttons (we can 
merge the macos one with the jws, so it will be only 3). However, this is the 
behaviour of http://www.mozilla-europe.org/en/firefox/.

And since we're not using php anymore, I don't think we can do it server side.

 Also, can't we get a better screenshot?  That one really doesn't look
 appealing, you can barely make out what it is saying, and that theme
 is rather bland :-/

 Ian.


Well, I already said that I needed good screenshots. Nobody answered, so I 
just made one quickly, with the theme I prefer (:p). Now, if anyone can make 
good screenshots, I agree it would be best.

Also, I already asked if we should do as http://www.mozilla-
europe.org/en/firefox/ and show one screenshot per feature (as proposed by 
Victor too, if I understood well), but had no answer.

So, once again : what would be best, and more important, do we need to 
consider this as a blocker before deploy the website ? (I think we shouldn't, 
because even with a not-so-beautiful screenshot, the new website looks better 
than the current one).

 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ian Clarkei...@locut.us wrote:
  Definitely progress, the spacing is still weird on this text:
 
   http://img.skitch.com/20090716-tuwgbrc2pjgh27t73br7q6859s.png
 
Will fix that too (but I don't think it should be considered as blocking the 
deployement).
  I've asked some people for their feedback too.
 
  Ian.
 
  On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Clémentcvol...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hello all,
 
  Afaik, all the major defaults are resolved.
 
  So, the question is quite simple :
 
  is this (http://amphibian.dyndns.org/freenet/newsite/) site ready to be
  deployed, or does it need some more polishing ?
 
  Regards,
 
  Dieppe
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  --
  Ian Clarke
  CEO, Uprizer Labs
  Email: i...@uprizer.com
  Ph: +1 512 422 3588
  Fax: +1 512 276 6674

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