[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 01:20:23 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> 
> > > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > > the node ?
> >
> > Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> > in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
> 
> It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

I have got rid of all the boxes above the friends list in simple mode. Is that 
acceptable? I am not certain what would work best here... The purpose of the 
node status box is to show that the node is working (in terms of handling 
requests), the purpose of the connection count box is to instantly give the 
user a count of the number of backed off, connected, etc nodes ... 
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 01:20:23 Clément wrote:
> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> 
> > > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > > the node ?
> >
> > Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> > in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
> 
> It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

I have got rid of all the boxes above the friends list in simple mode. Is that 
acceptable? I am not certain what would work best here... The purpose of the 
node status box is to show that the node is working (in terms of handling 
requests), the purpose of the connection count box is to instantly give the 
user a count of the number of backed off, connected, etc nodes ... 


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Tuesday, 26. May 2009 19:16:14 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Sunday 24 May 2009 17:30:00 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> > > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to
> > > establish darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something
> > > about Freenet becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's
> > > true?
> >
> > From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again
> > after some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a
> > page) got a massive bump up.
>
> That is surprising, I wonder why. Maybe just that they are stable
> connections?

Maybe that - and maybe they are simply faster :) 

Also it could be a stronger relation of interests (I asked in Frost for refs 
with people who also use GNU/Linux -> free software enthusiasts). 

Best wishes, 
Arne

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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Tuesday, 26. May 2009 19:16:14 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Sunday 24 May 2009 17:30:00 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> > > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to
> > > establish darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something
> > > about Freenet becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's
> > > true?
> >
> > From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again
> > after some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a
> > page) got a massive bump up.
>
> That is surprising, I wonder why. Maybe just that they are stable
> connections?

Maybe that - and maybe they are simply faster :) 

Also it could be a stronger relation of interests (I asked in Frost for refs 
with people who also use GNU/Linux -> free software enthusiasts). 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Luke771]

Cl?ment wrote:


>>> The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
>>> However, why do we have :
>>> ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>>>   
>> Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an
>> internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very
>> often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS
>> to be easy to enter a Freenet URI.
>>
>> 
>
> Well, in fact we won't get rid of the box to fetch a key from the browse 
> freenet page. Maybe rename it like "visit a freesite (paste the freesite 
> key)". Because there is a distinction between browsing freenet and 
> downloading 
> a key. So it should be on separate pages.
>
>   



I think that both the key-fetching fields (bulk downloads and 
fetch-a-key) should be immediately visible when opening the Browse 
Freenet  and the DL/UL page respectivley..

Currently, they are positioned below the bookmarks and below the current 
download/uploads, respectively.
That means, adding a couple of bookmarks and/or a couple of items to the 
queue, you'll have to scroll down to see the key fetching fields. 
Repositioning each field to the top of their respective pages would be a 
good thing IMHO.

Also, the names.
'Visit a Freesite' may be a good name for the current 'Fetch a Key' 
field,  no need to tell 'Joe User' that he could use that field for 
downloading files, he'll do that in the UL/DL page.
Rename the 'Bulk Downloads' field to 'File Downloads' and change the 
text "You can paste a list of keys to download in the box below (one per 
line)" to a more concise "one key per line"

Those simple changes, renaming + repositioning, would make it more 
obvious how to use them to the non-geek user.

Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Luke771]

Clément wrote:


>>> The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
>>> However, why do we have :
>>> “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>>>   
>> Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an
>> internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very
>> often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS
>> to be easy to enter a Freenet URI.
>>
>> 
>
> Well, in fact we won't get rid of the box to fetch a key from the browse 
> freenet page. Maybe rename it like "visit a freesite (paste the freesite 
> key)". Because there is a distinction between browsing freenet and 
> downloading 
> a key. So it should be on separate pages.
>
>   



I think that both the key-fetching fields (bulk downloads and 
fetch-a-key) should be immediately visible when opening the Browse 
Freenet  and the DL/UL page respectivley..

Currently, they are positioned below the bookmarks and below the current 
download/uploads, respectively.
That means, adding a couple of bookmarks and/or a couple of items to the 
queue, you'll have to scroll down to see the key fetching fields. 
Repositioning each field to the top of their respective pages would be a 
good thing IMHO.

Also, the names.
'Visit a Freesite' may be a good name for the current 'Fetch a Key' 
field,  no need to tell 'Joe User' that he could use that field for 
downloading files, he'll do that in the UL/DL page.
Rename the 'Bulk Downloads' field to 'File Downloads' and change the 
text "You can paste a list of keys to download in the box below (one per 
line)" to a more concise "one key per line"

Those simple changes, renaming + repositioning, would make it more 
obvious how to use them to the non-geek user.

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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 26 May 2009 21:13:12 Cl?ment wrote:
> Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:52:00, xor a ?crit :
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > #Navigation :
> > > >
> > > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items,
> > > > but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> > >
> > > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> > >
> > > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > > >
> > > > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > > However, why do we have :
> > > > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse
> > > > Freenet.
> > >
> > > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > > page.
> >
> > I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an
> > internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!
> >
> > > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> > >
> > > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> > >
> > > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another
> > > page where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page,
> > > bookmark updates on the browse freenet page).
> > >
> > > We should probably either
> > > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> >
> > I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very
> > useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished
> > downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends.
> > It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if
> > something has happened.
> >
> > But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.
> >
> 
> Hmm, I don't agree here : we need to have something like a status bar to have 
> a quick overview of the node status, but have a separate message page. It's 
> one click more than the actual situation to have a detailed status. I think 
> that's reasonable.

What would you put in it? Some of the alerts are unexpected, rare and 
important, such as the message that the revocation key for the auto-updater has 
been blown. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a status bar (there are things we 
need to show such as the security levels, the simple/advanced slider), but IMHO 
we need to show the high priority alerts somewhere.
> 
> > > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > > >
> > > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> > >
> > > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely
> > > different IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc.
> > > Strangers are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP
> > > address, etc.
> >
> > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> > darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> > becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
> >
> > - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage
> > users to do something.
> >
> > > Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages
> > > are IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse
> > > Freenet page and maybe others
> >
> > Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.
> 
> Summary should be on all the pages in the status bar. The browse page is 
> *not* 
> the freenet homepage, it is intended for browsing. We could have a homepage 
> though, but we need to separate it from the browse page. We don't want to 
> confuse the user, so we can't mix different functions in the same page.

I don't understand what you expect us to put on a homepage. IMHO when a newbie 
installs a node they want to use Freenet, and the best way to do that is to 
browse and search Freenet.
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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:52:00, xor a ?crit :
> On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > >
> > >
> > > #Navigation :
> > >
> > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items,
> > > but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> >
> > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > >
> > > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > However, why do we have :
> > > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse
> > > Freenet.
> >
> > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > page.
>
> I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an
> internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!
>
> > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> >
> > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> >
> > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another
> > page where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page,
> > bookmark updates on the browse freenet page).
> >
> > We should probably either
> > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
>
> I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very
> useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished
> downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends.
> It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if
> something has happened.
>
> But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.
>

Hmm, I don't agree here : we need to have something like a status bar to have 
a quick overview of the node status, but have a separate message page. It's 
one click more than the actual situation to have a detailed status. I think 
that's reasonable.

> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > >
> > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> >
> > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely
> > different IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc.
> > Strangers are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP
> > address, etc.
>
> Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
>
> - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage
> users to do something.
>
> > Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages
> > are IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse
> > Freenet page and maybe others
>
> Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.

Summary should be on all the pages in the status bar. The browse page is *not* 
the freenet homepage, it is intended for browsing. We could have a homepage 
though, but we need to separate it from the browse page. We don't want to 
confuse the user, so we can't mix different functions in the same page.

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:58:17, xor a ?crit :
> (
> In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen
> there:
>
> https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php
> )
>
> On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an
> internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very
> often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS
> to be easy to enter a Freenet URI.
>

Well, in fact we won't get rid of the box to fetch a key from the browse 
freenet page. Maybe rename it like "visit a freesite (paste the freesite 
key)". Because there is a distinction between browsing freenet and downloading 
a key. So it should be on separate pages.

> > ?Current Activity? : idem
> >
> > #Messages :
> >
> > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
> >
> >
> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current
> > activity of the node ?
>
> Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers
> are DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is
> separate, it helps having a clear overview over your friends list.
>
> Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your
> friends page, especially if we consider that there will be more "social
> functions" on the friends page in the future.
>
> > #Internet Connection :
> >
> > ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> > informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why
> > a page for that in fact..)
>
> I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page,
> I really think it is bare legacy and should be removed.
>
> > or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> > ?jSite / Thingamablog /
> > the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name? instead.'
> > Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite
> > available for all.
>
> This is a very good idea!
>
> > Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> > Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> > Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected
> > dl (like in the connection to friends page).
>
> "Clear all" options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and
> some javascript to check them all.
>
> > Insert as :
> > * CHK : explain what it is
> > * SSK/USK : idem
> > * KSK : idem + ask for the name
>
> Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this:
>
> https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030
>
> > Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?
>
> If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development
> team so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref
>
> - Can't we write a "crawler" mode for fred so it can automatically harvest
> seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not
> submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it:
> On most other p2p networks, you don't have to.

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 24 May 2009 17:30:00 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> > darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> > becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
> 
> From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again after 
> some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a page) got a 
> massive bump up. 

That is surprising, I wonder why. Maybe just that they are stable connections?
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 26 May 2009 21:13:12 Clément wrote:
> Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:52:00, xor a écrit :
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > #Navigation :
> > > >
> > > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items,
> > > > but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> > >
> > > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> > >
> > > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > > >
> > > > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > > However, why do we have :
> > > > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse
> > > > Freenet.
> > >
> > > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > > page.
> >
> > I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an
> > internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!
> >
> > > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> > >
> > > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> > >
> > > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another
> > > page where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page,
> > > bookmark updates on the browse freenet page).
> > >
> > > We should probably either
> > > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> >
> > I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very
> > useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished
> > downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends.
> > It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if
> > something has happened.
> >
> > But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.
> >
> 
> Hmm, I don't agree here : we need to have something like a status bar to have 
> a quick overview of the node status, but have a separate message page. It's 
> one click more than the actual situation to have a detailed status. I think 
> that's reasonable.

What would you put in it? Some of the alerts are unexpected, rare and 
important, such as the message that the revocation key for the auto-updater has 
been blown. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a status bar (there are things we 
need to show such as the security levels, the simple/advanced slider), but IMHO 
we need to show the high priority alerts somewhere.
> 
> > > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > > >
> > > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> > >
> > > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely
> > > different IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc.
> > > Strangers are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP
> > > address, etc.
> >
> > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> > darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> > becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
> >
> > - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage
> > users to do something.
> >
> > > Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages
> > > are IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse
> > > Freenet page and maybe others
> >
> > Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.
> 
> Summary should be on all the pages in the status bar. The browse page is 
> *not* 
> the freenet homepage, it is intended for browsing. We could have a homepage 
> though, but we need to separate it from the browse page. We don't want to 
> confuse the user, so we can't mix different functions in the same page.

I don't understand what you expect us to put on a homepage. IMHO when a newbie 
installs a node they want to use Freenet, and the best way to do that is to 
browse and search Freenet.


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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:52:00, xor a écrit :
> On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > >
> > >
> > > #Navigation :
> > >
> > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items,
> > > but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> >
> > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > >
> > > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > However, why do we have :
> > > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse
> > > Freenet.
> >
> > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > page.
>
> I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an
> internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!
>
> > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> >
> > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> >
> > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another
> > page where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page,
> > bookmark updates on the browse freenet page).
> >
> > We should probably either
> > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
>
> I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very
> useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished
> downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends.
> It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if
> something has happened.
>
> But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.
>

Hmm, I don't agree here : we need to have something like a status bar to have 
a quick overview of the node status, but have a separate message page. It's 
one click more than the actual situation to have a detailed status. I think 
that's reasonable.

> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > >
> > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> >
> > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely
> > different IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc.
> > Strangers are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP
> > address, etc.
>
> Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
>
> - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage
> users to do something.
>
> > Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages
> > are IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse
> > Freenet page and maybe others
>
> Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.

Summary should be on all the pages in the status bar. The browse page is *not* 
the freenet homepage, it is intended for browsing. We could have a homepage 
though, but we need to separate it from the browse page. We don't want to 
confuse the user, so we can't mix different functions in the same page.
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le dimanche 24 mai 2009 16:58:17, xor a écrit :
> (
> In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen
> there:
>
> https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php
> )
>
> On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an
> internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very
> often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS
> to be easy to enter a Freenet URI.
>

Well, in fact we won't get rid of the box to fetch a key from the browse 
freenet page. Maybe rename it like "visit a freesite (paste the freesite 
key)". Because there is a distinction between browsing freenet and downloading 
a key. So it should be on separate pages.

> > “Current Activity” : idem
> >
> > #Messages :
> >
> > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
> >
> >
> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current
> > activity of the node ?
>
> Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers
> are DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is
> separate, it helps having a clear overview over your friends list.
>
> Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your
> friends page, especially if we consider that there will be more "social
> functions" on the friends page in the future.
>
> > #Internet Connection :
> >
> > ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> > informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why
> > a page for that in fact..)
>
> I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page,
> I really think it is bare legacy and should be removed.
>
> > or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> > “jSite / Thingamablog /
> > the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name” instead.'
> > Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite
> > available for all.
>
> This is a very good idea!
>
> > Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> > Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> > Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected
> > dl (like in the connection to friends page).
>
> "Clear all" options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and
> some javascript to check them all.
>
> > Insert as :
> > * CHK : explain what it is
> > * SSK/USK : idem
> > * KSK : idem + ask for the name
>
> Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this:
>
> https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030
>
> > Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?
>
> If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development
> team so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref
>
> - Can't we write a "crawler" mode for fred so it can automatically harvest
> seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not
> submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it:
> On most other p2p networks, you don't have to.
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 24 May 2009 17:30:00 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> > darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> > becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
> 
> From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again after 
> some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a page) got a 
> massive bump up. 

That is surprising, I wonder why. Maybe just that they are stable connections?


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[xor]

(
In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen 
there:

https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php
)


On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> First, let's see the current situation :
>
>
> #Navigation :
>
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> #Browse Freenet page :
>
> The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.

Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an 
internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very often 
that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS to be 
easy to enter a Freenet URI. 


> ?Current Activity? : idem
>
> #Messages :
>
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages :
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
>
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
>
> Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity
> of the node ?

Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers are 
DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is separate, 
it helps having a clear overview over your friends list.

Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your friends 
page, especially if we consider that there will be more "social functions" on 
the friends page in the future.

> #Internet Connection :
>
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a
> page for that in fact..)

I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page, I 
really think it is bare legacy and should be removed.


> or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> ?jSite / Thingamablog /
> the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name? instead.' Possibility
> to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite available for all.

This is a very good idea!


> Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl
> (like in the connection to friends page).

"Clear all" options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and some 
javascript to check them all.

> Insert as :
> * CHK : explain what it is
> * SSK/USK : idem
> * KSK : idem + ask for the name

Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this:

https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030

>
> Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?

If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development team 
so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref

- Can't we write a "crawler" mode for fred so it can automatically harvest 
seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not 
submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it: On 
most other p2p networks, you don't have to.


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[xor]

On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> Agreed, we need sub-menus.
>
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> page.

I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an 
internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!

>
> In which case we don't show the menu item.
>
> If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
>
> There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> updates on the browse freenet page).
>
> We should probably either
> 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them

I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very 
useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished 
downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends. It 
is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if something 
has happened.

But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.


>
> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ?
>
> Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.

Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish 
darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet 
becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?

- More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage users 
to do something.

>
> Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> page and maybe others

Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Saturday, 23. May 2009 20:03:25 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment.
>
> Isn't it better to just say "You have 5 messages from friends" ? Or "You
> have 1 new messages from friends" ?

I'm not perfectly sure, but I think it would suffice. 

Maybe I reacted too emotionally... 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de

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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote:
> Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish
> darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet
> becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?

From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again after 
some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a page) got a 
massive bump up. 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de


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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[xor]

(
In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen 
there:

https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php
)


On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Clément wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> First, let's see the current situation :
>
>
> #Navigation :
>
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> #Browse Freenet page :
>
> The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.

Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an 
internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very often 
that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS to be 
easy to enter a Freenet URI. 


> “Current Activity” : idem
>
> #Messages :
>
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages :
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
>
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
>
> Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity
> of the node ?

Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers are 
DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is separate, 
it helps having a clear overview over your friends list.

Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your friends 
page, especially if we consider that there will be more "social functions" on 
the friends page in the future.

> #Internet Connection :
>
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a
> page for that in fact..)

I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page, I 
really think it is bare legacy and should be removed.


> or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> “jSite / Thingamablog /
> the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name” instead.' Possibility
> to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite available for all.

This is a very good idea!


> Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl
> (like in the connection to friends page).

"Clear all" options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and some 
javascript to check them all.

> Insert as :
> * CHK : explain what it is
> * SSK/USK : idem
> * KSK : idem + ask for the name

Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this:

https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030

>
> Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?

If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development team 
so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref

- Can't we write a "crawler" mode for fred so it can automatically harvest 
seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not 
submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it: On 
most other p2p networks, you don't have to.




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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[xor]

On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> Agreed, we need sub-menus.
>
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> page.

I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an 
internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it!

>
> In which case we don't show the menu item.
>
> If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
>
> There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> updates on the browse freenet page).
>
> We should probably either
> 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them

I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very 
useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished 
downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends. It 
is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if something 
has happened.

But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes.


>
> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ?
>
> Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.

Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish 
darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet 
becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?

- More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage users 
to do something.

>
> Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> page and maybe others

Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes.




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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Saturday, 23. May 2009 20:03:25 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment.
>
> Isn't it better to just say "You have 5 messages from friends" ? Or "You
> have 1 new messages from friends" ?

I'm not perfectly sure, but I think it would suffice. 

Maybe I reacted too emotionally... 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de



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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 10:48:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Friday, 22. May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > Putting the messages only here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> > IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> > page and maybe others
> > - reduce the number of messages by coalescing them and shifting them to the
> > relevant pages: "You have 6 messages" with a link to the Friends page
> > rather than one for each n2ntm, similar with bookmark updates.
> 
> I personally like having the messages at the top. 
> 
> freind to friend messages are the major way to keep in contact with your 
> friends, and the friends are important, so their messages should be visible 
> instantly. 
> 
> If a friend says "I've been compromised" every other user HAS TO see that on 
> the first page. 

Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment.

Isn't it better to just say "You have 5 messages from friends" ? Or "You have 1 
new messages from friends" ?
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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 11:04:12 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Saturday, 23. May 2009 02:20:23 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > > A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'
> > > >  and 'Restart the node'
> > >
> > > You want to encourage people to shut down? IMHO the best way to do that
> > > is with a system tray icon.
> >
> > Hum, in all application you can always exit the application in one click. I
> > know freenet needs people to run it as long as they can, but hidding the
> > shutdown button is not a solution (we don't want to force them to run
> > freenet, do we ? ;) )
> 
> Why not just add a pause button to the ones on the start page? 

Because we haven't implemented pause yet? :) But yes, it's a good idea.
> 
> The stop and restart buttons currently are on the first page. 
> 
> But maybe all these options could be moved to a "manage your node" or 
> "maintenance" page. 

Perhaps, or perhaps we need a status line, which could include simple vs 
advanced mode, color coded security levels, pause vs un-pause, shutdown, 
restart, language selector, and a count of non-serious alerts? This would not 
take up very much space vertically and could probably be manageable 
horizontally.
> 
> Configuration, Statistics and Reachability could also go there. 

Yes, this probably makes sense.
> 
> As addition: I think up- and downloads should be called up- and downloads - 
> regardless of how queuey they are :) 

Agreed.

> Then they should also have a "download key" field like the one on the start 
> page. It could differ from teh one on teh start page by always downloading to 
> the download folder. 

Yes. Although we already have "Bulk Downloads", and we don't want to get rid of 
it ... maybe better document it?

"Bulk Downloads" ->
"Download files by key" ???

And then on the Browse Freenet page,
"Fetch a Key (CHK, SSK, USK)" ->
"Fetch a freesite by key"

???
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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 01:20:23 Cl?ment wrote:
> Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 23:38:35, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > >
> > >
> > > #Navigation :
> > >
> > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> >
> > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > >
> > > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > However, why do we have :
> > > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
> >
> > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > page.
> 
> Yep, here I just list the points that I don't find logical. If we want to 
> fetch 
> a key, we go in the downloads page. If we want to visit a site, we need a box 
> to do so (see below, I forgot to put that on the browse page proposition)

Okay, so you just want to change the name of the box from "Fetch a key (CHK, 
USK, SSK)" ... to what?
> 
> > > ?Version Information & Node Control? : we don't care, we just want to
> > > browse Freenet.
> >
> > When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.
> 
> Sure, but I don't think it's the right place to put this information. It 
> should be under the status/statistics page, or maybe we can add a submenu 
> status/node info.

It is highly unlikely that a newbie will visit the stats page, or remember 
anything they see there.
> 
> > > ?Current Activity? : idem
> >
> > Fair point.

I have deleted "Current Activity".
> >
> > > #Messages :
> > >
> > > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
> >
> > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> 
> Ah, my bad then. But it's not really better, since menu item shouldn't 
> disappear : we need consistency over the time. One thing has exactly one 
> place, and always the same.

Okay. It should be under a submenu.
> 
> > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> 
> Yep, that's not a solution.
> 
> > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> > where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> > updates on the browse freenet page).
> >
> > We should probably either
> > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> >
> > > #Download and Upload :
> > >
> > > No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
> >
> > Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
> 
> Sub-menu should be easy to implement. 

Who is going to implement it? I'm not a CSS wizard by any means...

Caco_Patane send me a draft that would work with one of the themes, but I don't 
think it would work with the others. We need to modify all of the themes to 
support sub-menus. How exactly can be on a per-theme basis, they can be CSS 
popups or they can be a horizontal menu to go with the existing vertical or 
they can just be another horizontal menu under a horizontal menu etc. But 
somebody needs to do the work. Save the HTML from the homepage, modify it to 
have submenus, modify each CSS so that it works.
> 
> > > #Plugins :
> > >
> > > This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official
> > > plugin, we can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from
> > > freenet.
> >
> > It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very
> > much, and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication
> > what they do. However, the functionality is important. We may want to split
> > this into multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to
> > document the official plugins.
> 
> Yep, see the Configuration/Plugin page.
> 
> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > >
> > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> >
> > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> > IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> > are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.
> 
> Hmm, ok.

We might want a separate sub-page for messages to/from Friends, or we might 
want to show more newbie-friendly info for each Friend in a more verbose way 
rather than a table.
> 
> > > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > > the node ?
> >
> > Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> > in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
> 
> It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Saturday, 23. May 2009 02:20:23 Cl?ment wrote:
> > > A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'
> > >  and 'Restart the node'
> >
> > You want to encourage people to shut down? IMHO the best way to do that
> > is with a system tray icon.
>
> Hum, in all application you can always exit the application in one click. I
> know freenet needs people to run it as long as they can, but hidding the
> shutdown button is not a solution (we don't want to force them to run
> freenet, do we ? ;) )

Why not just add a pause button to the ones on the start page? 

The stop and restart buttons currently are on the first page. 

But maybe all these options could be moved to a "manage your node" or 
"maintenance" page. 

Configuration, Statistics and Reachability could also go there. 

As addition: I think up- and downloads should be called up- and downloads - 
regardless of how queuey they are :) 
Then they should also have a "download key" field like the one on the start 
page. It could differ from teh one on teh start page by always downloading to 
the download folder. 

Best wishes, 
Arne

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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Friday, 22. May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> Putting the messages only here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> page and maybe others
> - reduce the number of messages by coalescing them and shifting them to the
> relevant pages: "You have 6 messages" with a link to the Friends page
> rather than one for each n2ntm, similar with bookmark updates.

I personally like having the messages at the top. 

freind to friend messages are the major way to keep in contact with your 
friends, and the friends are important, so their messages should be visible 
instantly. 

If a friend says "I've been compromised" every other user HAS TO see that on 
the first page. 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 10:48:18 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Friday, 22. May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > Putting the messages only here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> > IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> > page and maybe others
> > - reduce the number of messages by coalescing them and shifting them to the
> > relevant pages: "You have 6 messages" with a link to the Friends page
> > rather than one for each n2ntm, similar with bookmark updates.
> 
> I personally like having the messages at the top. 
> 
> freind to friend messages are the major way to keep in contact with your 
> friends, and the friends are important, so their messages should be visible 
> instantly. 
> 
> If a friend says "I've been compromised" every other user HAS TO see that on 
> the first page. 

Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment.

Isn't it better to just say "You have 5 messages from friends" ? Or "You have 1 
new messages from friends" ?


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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 11:04:12 Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> On Saturday, 23. May 2009 02:20:23 Clément wrote:
> > > > A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'
> > > >  and 'Restart the node'
> > >
> > > You want to encourage people to shut down? IMHO the best way to do that
> > > is with a system tray icon.
> >
> > Hum, in all application you can always exit the application in one click. I
> > know freenet needs people to run it as long as they can, but hidding the
> > shutdown button is not a solution (we don't want to force them to run
> > freenet, do we ? ;) )
> 
> Why not just add a pause button to the ones on the start page? 

Because we haven't implemented pause yet? :) But yes, it's a good idea.
> 
> The stop and restart buttons currently are on the first page. 
> 
> But maybe all these options could be moved to a "manage your node" or 
> "maintenance" page. 

Perhaps, or perhaps we need a status line, which could include simple vs 
advanced mode, color coded security levels, pause vs un-pause, shutdown, 
restart, language selector, and a count of non-serious alerts? This would not 
take up very much space vertically and could probably be manageable 
horizontally.
> 
> Configuration, Statistics and Reachability could also go there. 

Yes, this probably makes sense.
> 
> As addition: I think up- and downloads should be called up- and downloads - 
> regardless of how queuey they are :) 

Agreed.

> Then they should also have a "download key" field like the one on the start 
> page. It could differ from teh one on teh start page by always downloading to 
> the download folder. 

Yes. Although we already have "Bulk Downloads", and we don't want to get rid of 
it ... maybe better document it?

"Bulk Downloads" ->
"Download files by key" ???

And then on the Browse Freenet page,
"Fetch a Key (CHK, SSK, USK)" ->
"Fetch a freesite by key"

???


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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Saturday 23 May 2009 01:20:23 Clément wrote:
> Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 23:38:35, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
> > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > First, let's see the current situation :
> > >
> > >
> > > #Navigation :
> > >
> > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
> >
> > Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> >
> > > #Browse Freenet page :
> > >
> > > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > > However, why do we have :
> > > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
> >
> > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> > page.
> 
> Yep, here I just list the points that I don't find logical. If we want to 
> fetch 
> a key, we go in the downloads page. If we want to visit a site, we need a box 
> to do so (see below, I forgot to put that on the browse page proposition)

Okay, so you just want to change the name of the box from "Fetch a key (CHK, 
USK, SSK)" ... to what?
> 
> > > “Version Information & Node Control” : we don't care, we just want to
> > > browse Freenet.
> >
> > When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.
> 
> Sure, but I don't think it's the right place to put this information. It 
> should be under the status/statistics page, or maybe we can add a submenu 
> status/node info.

It is highly unlikely that a newbie will visit the stats page, or remember 
anything they see there.
> 
> > > “Current Activity” : idem
> >
> > Fair point.

I have deleted "Current Activity".
> >
> > > #Messages :
> > >
> > > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
> >
> > In which case we don't show the menu item.
> 
> Ah, my bad then. But it's not really better, since menu item shouldn't 
> disappear : we need consistency over the time. One thing has exactly one 
> place, and always the same.

Okay. It should be under a submenu.
> 
> > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
> 
> Yep, that's not a solution.
> 
> > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> > where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> > updates on the browse freenet page).
> >
> > We should probably either
> > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> >
> > > #Download and Upload :
> > >
> > > No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
> >
> > Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
> 
> Sub-menu should be easy to implement. 

Who is going to implement it? I'm not a CSS wizard by any means...

Caco_Patane send me a draft that would work with one of the themes, but I don't 
think it would work with the others. We need to modify all of the themes to 
support sub-menus. How exactly can be on a per-theme basis, they can be CSS 
popups or they can be a horizontal menu to go with the existing vertical or 
they can just be another horizontal menu under a horizontal menu etc. But 
somebody needs to do the work. Save the HTML from the homepage, modify it to 
have submenus, modify each CSS so that it works.
> 
> > > #Plugins :
> > >
> > > This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official
> > > plugin, we can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from
> > > freenet.
> >
> > It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very
> > much, and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication
> > what they do. However, the functionality is important. We may want to split
> > this into multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to
> > document the official plugins.
> 
> Yep, see the Configuration/Plugin page.
> 
> > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> > >
> > > Why 2 separate pages ?
> >
> > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> > IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> > are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.
> 
> Hmm, ok.

We might want a separate sub-page for messages to/from Friends, or we might 
want to show more newbie-friendly info for each Friend in a more verbose way 
rather than a table.
> 
> > > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > > the node ?
> >
> > Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> > in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
> 
> It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Saturday, 23. May 2009 02:20:23 Clément wrote:
> > > A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'
> > >  and 'Restart the node'
> >
> > You want to encourage people to shut down? IMHO the best way to do that
> > is with a system tray icon.
>
> Hum, in all application you can always exit the application in one click. I
> know freenet needs people to run it as long as they can, but hidding the
> shutdown button is not a solution (we don't want to force them to run
> freenet, do we ? ;) )

Why not just add a pause button to the ones on the start page? 

The stop and restart buttons currently are on the first page. 

But maybe all these options could be moved to a "manage your node" or 
"maintenance" page. 

Configuration, Statistics and Reachability could also go there. 

As addition: I think up- and downloads should be called up- and downloads - 
regardless of how queuey they are :) 
Then they should also have a "download key" field like the one on the start 
page. It could differ from teh one on teh start page by always downloading to 
the download folder. 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
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  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de


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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

On Friday, 22. May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> Putting the messages only here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are
> IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet
> page and maybe others
> - reduce the number of messages by coalescing them and shifting them to the
> relevant pages: "You have 6 messages" with a link to the Friends page
> rather than one for each n2ntm, similar with bookmark updates.

I personally like having the messages at the top. 

freind to friend messages are the major way to keep in contact with your 
friends, and the friends are important, so their messages should be visible 
instantly. 

If a friend says "I've been compromised" every other user HAS TO see that on 
the first page. 

Best wishes, 
Arne

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 
   - singing a part of the history of free software -
  http://infinite-hands.draketo.de


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[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 23:38:35, Matthew Toseland a ?crit :
> On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> Agreed, we need sub-menus.
>
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> page.
>

Yep, here I just list the points that I don't find logical. If we want to fetch 
a key, we go in the downloads page. If we want to visit a site, we need a box 
to do so (see below, I forgot to put that on the browse page proposition)

> > ?Version Information & Node Control? : we don't care, we just want to
> > browse Freenet.
>
> When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.

Sure, but I don't think it's the right place to put this information. It 
should be under the status/statistics page, or maybe we can add a submenu 
status/node info.

>
> > ?Current Activity? : idem
>
> Fair point.
>
> > #Messages :
> >
> > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
> In which case we don't show the menu item.
>

Ah, my bad then. But it's not really better, since menu item shouldn't 
disappear : we need consistency over the time. One thing has exactly one 
place, and always the same.

> If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
>

Yep, that's not a solution.

> There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> updates on the browse freenet page).
>
> We should probably either
> 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
>
> > #Download and Upload :
> >
> > No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
>
> Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
>

Sub-menu should be easy to implement. 

> > #Plugins :
> >
> > This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official
> > plugin, we can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from
> > freenet.
>
> It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very
> much, and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication
> what they do. However, the functionality is important. We may want to split
> this into multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to
> document the official plugins.
>

Yep, see the Configuration/Plugin page.

> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ?
>
> Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.
>

Hmm, ok.

> > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > the node ?
>
> Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
>

It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

> > All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status.
> > Why are the ports showed ?
>
> Where do you propose we put them? On the Internet Connection page, I guess?
> Some users will need to know them for port forwarding reasons.
>

Maybe on the Status/node info page then. (I forgot that point in my proposal)

> > #Statistics :
> >
> > Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.
>
> It's huge yeah, it should probably be split eventually.
>
> > #Internet Connection :
> >
> > ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> > informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why
> > a page for that in fact..)
>
> In "Simple interface", my node shows:
>
> Connectivity
> UDP Darknet port 24374Port forwarded
> UDP Opennet port 37024Maybe port forwarded
>
> This is not immediately comprehensible by a new user. We will tell the user
> that they need to forward specific ports with a useralert if we need to.
> However, this information may be of use somewhere, it should probably be
> hidden away though.
>

I'm not saying that these informations aren't usefull. They're just not in the 
right place (imo).

> > #Configuration :
> >
> > A big big mess. Really. When in si

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> First, let's see the current situation :
> 
> 
> #Navigation :
> 
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but 
> they 
> aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.

Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> 
> #Browse Freenet page :
> 
> The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.

Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue page.

> ?Version Information & Node Control? : we don't care, we just want to browse 
> Freenet.

When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.

> ?Current Activity? : idem

Fair point.
> 
> #Messages :
> 
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the 
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : 
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.

In which case we don't show the menu item.

If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much space 
that newbies don't see the rest of the page.

There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message list 
when they should really just post a summary and point to another page where 
they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark updates 
on the browse freenet page).

We should probably either
1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> 
> #Download and Upload :
> 
> No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.

Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
> 
> #Plugins :
> 
> This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin, 
> we 
> can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.

It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very much, 
and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication what they do. 
However, the functionality is important. We may want to split this into 
multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to document the official 
plugins.
> 
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> 
> Why 2 separate pages ? 

Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different 
IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers are 
just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.

> Why showing informations about the current activity of  
> the node ?

Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only in 
advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.

> All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status. Why 
> are the ports showed ?

Where do you propose we put them? On the Internet Connection page, I guess? 
Some users will need to know them for port forwarding reasons.
> 
> #Statistics :
> 
> Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.

It's huge yeah, it should probably be split eventually.
> 
> #Internet Connection :
> 
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug 
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a 
> page for that in fact..)

In "Simple interface", my node shows:

Connectivity
UDP Darknet port 24374  Port forwarded
UDP Opennet port 37024  Maybe port forwarded

This is not immediately comprehensible by a new user. We will tell the user 
that they need to forward specific ports with a useralert if we need to. 
However, this information may be of use somewhere, it should probably be hidden 
away though.
> 
> #Configuration :
> 
> A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in advanced 
> mode

Please could you elaborate on that a bit?

> Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ? 
> It's not even related.

Security levels are part of configuration!
> 
> #Mode switching :
> 
> It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change this, 
> or to click on the button on each page

I don't see any alternative given that most users will only want to see the 
simple stuff, but devs and some power users will definitely want to see more.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do I propose :
> 
> #Navigation :
> 
> ##Menu :
> 
> (level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)

Okay, first point is you use sub-menus. I strongly approve of sub-menus. 
Caco_Patane was working on them, but if he doesn't get back to us somebody else 
will have to do it. Really it's not a huge change, it just needs rewriting the 
CSSes and some tiny changes in the java code after that.
> 
> Freesites :
> => Browse Freenet
> => Insert your own site (when available)

Agreed.
> 
> Filesharing :
> => Download files
> => Upload files

Agreed.
> 
> Discussion :
> => Talk with Fr

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Hi all,

First, let's see the current situation :


#Navigation :

9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but they 
aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.

#Browse Freenet page :

The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
However, why do we have :
?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
?Version Information & Node Control? : we don't care, we just want to browse 
Freenet.
?Current Activity? : idem

#Messages :

I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the 
bookmarks, it's not the good place.
I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : 
sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.

#Download and Upload :

No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.

#Plugins :

This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin, we 
can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.

#Connections to friends + connections to strangers :

Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity of 
the node ?
All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status. Why 
are the ports showed ?

#Statistics :

Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.

#Internet Connection :

??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug 
informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a 
page for that in fact..)

#Configuration :

A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in advanced 
mode
Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ? 
It's not even related.

#Mode switching :

It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change this, 
or to click on the button on each page



Now, what do I propose :

#Navigation :

##Menu :

(level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)

Freesites :
=> Browse Freenet
=> Insert your own site (when available)

Filesharing :
=> Download files
=> Upload files

Discussion :
=> Talk with FreeTalk (when Freetalk available)

Status :
=> Show the {number of messages} messages (if there are some)
=> Show connections
=> Show statistics

Configuration

Plugins (if required)
=> Plugin 1
=> Plugin 2
=> Plugin 3
?.

Managing the node :

A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'  and 
'Restart the node'

Mode switching :

Idem with : 'Switch to {mode=simple?advanced:simple} mode'

#Details :

##Freesites :

###Browse Freenet :

if XMLLibrarian plugin is loaded, show the search freenet field, else, show a 
message like : 'if you want to search freesites, you have to load the 
XMLLibrarian plugin' followed by a button 'Load the plugin'

Then show bookmarks. If a bookmark is updated, highlight it.

That's all.

###Insert your freesite :

two solutions : 

not displaying it until we have a plugin for that

or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use 
?jSite / Thingamablog / the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name? 
instead.' Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite 
available for all.


##Filesharing :

On both pages, at the exact same place :

Show the number of current downloads and uploads. 

###Downloads :

Field bulk download;
Show the progress of downloads.
Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl 
(like in the connection to friends page).

###Uploads :

File :
Field 'Path' + Button browse.
Checkbox : upload through the browser

Insert as :
* CHK : explain what it is
* SSK/USK : idem
* KSK : idem + ask for the name

Insertion progress

##Talking :

see ?insert your freesite?

##Status :

###Messages :
as it is;

###Connections :

Number of connections : X
Friends : Y
Strangers : Z

Details :

Friends details : as it is
Strangers details : idem

Add a friend : (I'm not sure wether we should have a page for that or do that 
here)
Your darknet ref :

Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?


###Statistics :

sub-menu :

node related things : (JVM + node version + datastore)
bandwith : bandwith usage + number of bits dl/ul 
misc : cpu, threads, generate thread dump, etc.

##Configuration :

sub-menus :

one per category (+ security level);

javascript could help here : we can keep in memory the changes in the 
configuration and have a global 'apply' button. 

+ plugins :

this interface is just to add plugins and configure them. Plugins should 
integrate in the ui. If not, they're put in the plugins menu.

So : 

a list of all official plugin with checkbox (already added plugins have a 
checked checkbox) + button configure (greyed if the plugin is not added).

'apply' button : all unchecked plugin are removed if they were previously 
activated, all checked plugins are added.

Field ad

Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 23:38:35, Matthew Toseland a écrit :
> On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, let's see the current situation :
> >
> >
> > #Navigation :
> >
> > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> Agreed, we need sub-menus.
>
> > #Browse Freenet page :
> >
> > The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> > However, why do we have :
> > “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
>
> Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue
> page.
>

Yep, here I just list the points that I don't find logical. If we want to fetch 
a key, we go in the downloads page. If we want to visit a site, we need a box 
to do so (see below, I forgot to put that on the browse page proposition)

> > “Version Information & Node Control” : we don't care, we just want to
> > browse Freenet.
>
> When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.

Sure, but I don't think it's the right place to put this information. It 
should be under the status/statistics page, or maybe we can add a submenu 
status/node info.

>
> > “Current Activity” : idem
>
> Fair point.
>
> > #Messages :
> >
> > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> > bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages
> > : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
> In which case we don't show the menu item.
>

Ah, my bad then. But it's not really better, since menu item shouldn't 
disappear : we need consistency over the time. One thing has exactly one 
place, and always the same.

> If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much
> space that newbies don't see the rest of the page.
>

Yep, that's not a solution.

> There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message
> list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page
> where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark
> updates on the browse freenet page).
>
> We should probably either
> 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
> 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
>
> > #Download and Upload :
> >
> > No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
>
> Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
>

Sub-menu should be easy to implement. 

> > #Plugins :
> >
> > This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official
> > plugin, we can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from
> > freenet.
>
> It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very
> much, and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication
> what they do. However, the functionality is important. We may want to split
> this into multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to
> document the official plugins.
>

Yep, see the Configuration/Plugin page.

> > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> >
> > Why 2 separate pages ?
>
> Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different
> IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers
> are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.
>

Hmm, ok.

> > Why showing informations about the current activity of
> > the node ?
>
> Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only
> in advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.
>

It's redondant information yes (I mean the status).

> > All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status.
> > Why are the ports showed ?
>
> Where do you propose we put them? On the Internet Connection page, I guess?
> Some users will need to know them for port forwarding reasons.
>

Maybe on the Status/node info page then. (I forgot that point in my proposal)

> > #Statistics :
> >
> > Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.
>
> It's huge yeah, it should probably be split eventually.
>
> > #Internet Connection :
> >
> > ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> > informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why
> > a page for that in fact..)
>
> In "Simple interface", my node shows:
>
> Connectivity
> UDP Darknet port 24374Port forwarded
> UDP Opennet port 37024Maybe port forwarded
>
> This is not immediately comprehensible by a new user. We will tell the user
> that they need to forward specific ports with a useralert if we need to.
> However, this information may be of use somewhere, it should probably be
> hidden away though.
>

I'm not saying that these informations aren't usefull. They're just not in the 
right place (imo).

> > #Configuration :
> >
> > A big big mess. Really. When in si

Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Matthew Toseland]

On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> First, let's see the current situation :
> 
> 
> #Navigation :
> 
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but 
> they 
> aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.

Agreed, we need sub-menus.
> 
> #Browse Freenet page :
> 
> The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.

Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue page.

> “Version Information & Node Control” : we don't care, we just want to browse 
> Freenet.

When they come to us, we usually need to know the version number.

> “Current Activity” : idem

Fair point.
> 
> #Messages :
> 
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the 
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : 
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.

In which case we don't show the menu item.

If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much space 
that newbies don't see the rest of the page.

There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message list 
when they should really just post a summary and point to another page where 
they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark updates 
on the browse freenet page).

We should probably either
1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or
2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them
> 
> #Download and Upload :
> 
> No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.

Agreed. WHEN we have sub-menus, we should separate the two.
> 
> #Plugins :
> 
> This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin, 
> we 
> can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.

It is not very user-friendly, because the box doesn't tell a newbie very much, 
and the dropdown for official plugins doesn't give any indication what they do. 
However, the functionality is important. We may want to split this into 
multiple pages under a sub-menu, but we certainly want to document the official 
plugins.
> 
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
> 
> Why 2 separate pages ? 

Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different 
IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers are 
just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc.

> Why showing informations about the current activity of  
> the node ?

Good question. Some of it is per-node so clearly has to be here (but only in 
advanced mode), but the status at the top is debatable.

> All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status. Why 
> are the ports showed ?

Where do you propose we put them? On the Internet Connection page, I guess? 
Some users will need to know them for port forwarding reasons.
> 
> #Statistics :
> 
> Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.

It's huge yeah, it should probably be split eventually.
> 
> #Internet Connection :
> 
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug 
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a 
> page for that in fact..)

In "Simple interface", my node shows:

Connectivity
UDP Darknet port 24374  Port forwarded
UDP Opennet port 37024  Maybe port forwarded

This is not immediately comprehensible by a new user. We will tell the user 
that they need to forward specific ports with a useralert if we need to. 
However, this information may be of use somewhere, it should probably be hidden 
away though.
> 
> #Configuration :
> 
> A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in advanced 
> mode

Please could you elaborate on that a bit?

> Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ? 
> It's not even related.

Security levels are part of configuration!
> 
> #Mode switching :
> 
> It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change this, 
> or to click on the button on each page

I don't see any alternative given that most users will only want to see the 
simple stuff, but devs and some power users will definitely want to see more.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do I propose :
> 
> #Navigation :
> 
> ##Menu :
> 
> (level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)

Okay, first point is you use sub-menus. I strongly approve of sub-menus. 
Caco_Patane was working on them, but if he doesn't get back to us somebody else 
will have to do it. Really it's not a huge change, it just needs rewriting the 
CSSes and some tiny changes in the java code after that.
> 
> Freesites :
> => Browse Freenet
> => Insert your own site (when available)

Agreed.
> 
> Filesharing :
> => Download files
> => Upload files

Agreed.
> 
> Discussion :
> => Talk with Fr

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Ian Clarke]

This is exactly the kind of UI review we need.

If nobody disagrees, I suggest that you start filing bug reports in mantis
with specific suggestions about how to rectify each of these UI bugs.

Ian.

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Cl?ment  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, let's see the current situation :
>
>
> #Navigation :
>
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> they
> aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> #Browse Freenet page :
>
> The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
> ?Version Information & Node Control? : we don't care, we just want to
> browse
> Freenet.
> ?Current Activity? : idem
>
> #Messages :
>
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages :
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
> #Download and Upload :
>
> No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
>
> #Plugins :
>
> This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin,
> we
> can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.
>
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
>
> Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity
> of
> the node ?
> All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status.
> Why
> are the ports showed ?
>
> #Statistics :
>
> Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.
>
> #Internet Connection :
>
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a
> page for that in fact..)
>
> #Configuration :
>
> A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in
> advanced
> mode
> Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ?
> It's not even related.
>
> #Mode switching :
>
> It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change
> this,
> or to click on the button on each page
>
>
>
> Now, what do I propose :
>
> #Navigation :
>
> ##Menu :
>
> (level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)
>
> Freesites :
> => Browse Freenet
> => Insert your own site (when available)
>
> Filesharing :
> => Download files
> => Upload files
>
> Discussion :
> => Talk with FreeTalk (when Freetalk available)
>
> Status :
> => Show the {number of messages} messages (if there are some)
> => Show connections
> => Show statistics
>
> Configuration
>
> Plugins (if required)
> => Plugin 1
> => Plugin 2
> => Plugin 3
> ?.
>
> Managing the node :
>
> A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'  and
> 'Restart the node'
>
> Mode switching :
>
> Idem with : 'Switch to {mode=simple?advanced:simple} mode'
>
> #Details :
>
> ##Freesites :
>
> ###Browse Freenet :
>
> if XMLLibrarian plugin is loaded, show the search freenet field, else, show
> a
> message like : 'if you want to search freesites, you have to load the
> XMLLibrarian plugin' followed by a button 'Load the plugin'
>
> Then show bookmarks. If a bookmark is updated, highlight it.
>
> That's all.
>
> ###Insert your freesite :
>
> two solutions :
>
> not displaying it until we have a plugin for that
>
> or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> ?jSite / Thingamablog /
> the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name?
> instead.' Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite
> available for all.
>
>
> ##Filesharing :
>
> On both pages, at the exact same place :
>
> Show the number of current downloads and uploads.
>
> ###Downloads :
>
> Field bulk download;
> Show the progress of downloads.
> Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl
> (like in the connection to friends page).
>
> ###Uploads :
>
> File :
> Field 'Path' + Button browse.
> Checkbox : upload through the browser
>
> Insert as :
> * CHK : explain what it is
> * SSK/USK : idem
> * KSK : idem + ask for the name
>
> Insertion progress
>
> ##Talking :
>
> see ?insert your freesite?
>
> ##Status :
>
> ###Messages :
> as it is;
>
> ###Connections :
>
> Number of connections : X
> Friends : Y
> Strangers : Z
>
> Details :
>
> Friends details : as it is
> Strangers details : idem
>
> Add a friend : (I'm not sure wether we should have a page for that or do
> that
> here)
> Your darknet ref :
>
> Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?
>
>
> ###Statistics :
>
> sub-menu :
>
> node related things : (JVM + node version + datastore)
> bandwith : bandwith usage + number of bits dl/ul
> misc : cpu, threads, generate thread dump, etc.
>
> ##Configuration :
>
> sub-menus :
>
> one per category 

Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Ian Clarke]

This is exactly the kind of UI review we need.

If nobody disagrees, I suggest that you start filing bug reports in mantis
with specific suggestions about how to rectify each of these UI bugs.

Ian.

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Clément  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, let's see the current situation :
>
>
> #Navigation :
>
> 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but
> they
> aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.
>
> #Browse Freenet page :
>
> The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
> However, why do we have :
> “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
> “Version Information & Node Control” : we don't care, we just want to
> browse
> Freenet.
> “Current Activity” : idem
>
> #Messages :
>
> I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the
> bookmarks, it's not the good place.
> I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages :
> sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.
>
> #Download and Upload :
>
> No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.
>
> #Plugins :
>
> This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin,
> we
> can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.
>
> #Connections to friends + connections to strangers :
>
> Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity
> of
> the node ?
> All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status.
> Why
> are the ports showed ?
>
> #Statistics :
>
> Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.
>
> #Internet Connection :
>
> ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug
> informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a
> page for that in fact..)
>
> #Configuration :
>
> A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in
> advanced
> mode
> Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ?
> It's not even related.
>
> #Mode switching :
>
> It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change
> this,
> or to click on the button on each page
>
>
>
> Now, what do I propose :
>
> #Navigation :
>
> ##Menu :
>
> (level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)
>
> Freesites :
> => Browse Freenet
> => Insert your own site (when available)
>
> Filesharing :
> => Download files
> => Upload files
>
> Discussion :
> => Talk with FreeTalk (when Freetalk available)
>
> Status :
> => Show the {number of messages} messages (if there are some)
> => Show connections
> => Show statistics
>
> Configuration
>
> Plugins (if required)
> => Plugin 1
> => Plugin 2
> => Plugin 3
> ….
>
> Managing the node :
>
> A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'  and
> 'Restart the node'
>
> Mode switching :
>
> Idem with : 'Switch to {mode=simple?advanced:simple} mode'
>
> #Details :
>
> ##Freesites :
>
> ###Browse Freenet :
>
> if XMLLibrarian plugin is loaded, show the search freenet field, else, show
> a
> message like : 'if you want to search freesites, you have to load the
> XMLLibrarian plugin' followed by a button 'Load the plugin'
>
> Then show bookmarks. If a bookmark is updated, highlight it.
>
> That's all.
>
> ###Insert your freesite :
>
> two solutions :
>
> not displaying it until we have a plugin for that
>
> or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use
> “jSite / Thingamablog /
> the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name”
> instead.' Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite
> available for all.
>
>
> ##Filesharing :
>
> On both pages, at the exact same place :
>
> Show the number of current downloads and uploads.
>
> ###Downloads :
>
> Field bulk download;
> Show the progress of downloads.
> Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
> Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
> Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl
> (like in the connection to friends page).
>
> ###Uploads :
>
> File :
> Field 'Path' + Button browse.
> Checkbox : upload through the browser
>
> Insert as :
> * CHK : explain what it is
> * SSK/USK : idem
> * KSK : idem + ask for the name
>
> Insertion progress
>
> ##Talking :
>
> see “insert your freesite”
>
> ##Status :
>
> ###Messages :
> as it is;
>
> ###Connections :
>
> Number of connections : X
> Friends : Y
> Strangers : Z
>
> Details :
>
> Friends details : as it is
> Strangers details : idem
>
> Add a friend : (I'm not sure wether we should have a page for that or do
> that
> here)
> Your darknet ref :
>
> Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?
>
>
> ###Statistics :
>
> sub-menu :
>
> node related things : (JVM + node version + datastore)
> bandwith : bandwith usage + number of bits dl/ul
> misc : cpu, threads, generate thread dump, etc.
>
> ##Configuration :
>
> sub-menus :
>
> one per category 

[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements

[Clément]

Hi all,

First, let's see the current situation :


#Navigation :

9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but they 
aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies.

#Browse Freenet page :

The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing.
However, why do we have :
“Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet.
“Version Information & Node Control” : we don't care, we just want to browse 
Freenet.
“Current Activity” : idem

#Messages :

I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the 
bookmarks, it's not the good place.
I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : 
sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space.

#Download and Upload :

No clear separation between dowloads and uploads.

#Plugins :

This is a mess : here we access the plugins, we can add an official plugin, we 
can add a plugin from an url, we can add a plugin from freenet.

#Connections to friends + connections to strangers :

Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity of 
the node ?
All is mixed : managing nodes (adding/deleting) and showing their status. Why 
are the ports showed ?

#Statistics :

Nothing to say. It's just statistics. Maybe divide in several category.

#Internet Connection :

??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug 
informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a 
page for that in fact..)

#Configuration :

A big big mess. Really. When in simple mode, it's almost ok, but in advanced 
mode
Why a link to the security levels just on side of mode switching buttons ? 
It's not even related.

#Mode switching :

It's a pita : I have to go in the advanced configuration page to change this, 
or to click on the button on each page



Now, what do I propose :

#Navigation :

##Menu :

(level 1, category : noun; level 2, action : verb)

Freesites :
=> Browse Freenet
=> Insert your own site (when available)

Filesharing :
=> Download files
=> Upload files

Discussion :
=> Talk with FreeTalk (when Freetalk available)

Status :
=> Show the {number of messages} messages (if there are some)
=> Show connections
=> Show statistics

Configuration

Plugins (if required)
=> Plugin 1
=> Plugin 2
=> Plugin 3
….

Managing the node :

A always seeable (sorry for new words...) button 'Shutdown the node'  and 
'Restart the node'

Mode switching :

Idem with : 'Switch to {mode=simple?advanced:simple} mode'

#Details :

##Freesites :

###Browse Freenet :

if XMLLibrarian plugin is loaded, show the search freenet field, else, show a 
message like : 'if you want to search freesites, you have to load the 
XMLLibrarian plugin' followed by a button 'Load the plugin'

Then show bookmarks. If a bookmark is updated, highlight it.

That's all.

###Insert your freesite :

two solutions : 

not displaying it until we have a plugin for that

or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use 
“jSite / Thingamablog / the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name” 
instead.' Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite 
available for all.


##Filesharing :

On both pages, at the exact same place :

Show the number of current downloads and uploads. 

###Downloads :

Field bulk download;
Show the progress of downloads.
Propose to clear all the finished downloads.
Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now).
Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl 
(like in the connection to friends page).

###Uploads :

File :
Field 'Path' + Button browse.
Checkbox : upload through the browser

Insert as :
* CHK : explain what it is
* SSK/USK : idem
* KSK : idem + ask for the name

Insertion progress

##Talking :

see “insert your freesite”

##Status :

###Messages :
as it is;

###Connections :

Number of connections : X
Friends : Y
Strangers : Z

Details :

Friends details : as it is
Strangers details : idem

Add a friend : (I'm not sure wether we should have a page for that or do that 
here)
Your darknet ref :

Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ?


###Statistics :

sub-menu :

node related things : (JVM + node version + datastore)
bandwith : bandwith usage + number of bits dl/ul 
misc : cpu, threads, generate thread dump, etc.

##Configuration :

sub-menus :

one per category (+ security level);

javascript could help here : we can keep in memory the changes in the 
configuration and have a global 'apply' button. 

+ plugins :

this interface is just to add plugins and configure them. Plugins should 
integrate in the ui. If not, they're put in the plugins menu.

So : 

a list of all official plugin with checkbox (already added plugins have a 
checked checkbox) + button configure (greyed if the plugin is not added).

'apply' button : all unchecked plugin are removed if they were previously 
activated, all checked plugins are added.

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